Standard DVD-Audio DIGITAL Interface? When?

[Will]

When will we see a standard digital interface between DVD-audio players and receivers? There are proprietary digital interfaces now, but when will we see a standard digital interface, that works across different brands?

Thanks!

Will

[Namlemez]

Many companies are too scared this will make bit for bit copies of the new digital forms too easy. They are missing on purpose, not because of an oversight. The hardware manufactures love the proprietary ones because they force people to buy more of the products. And the media companies like it because it means their stuff can't get copied and the hardware companies are playing nice with them.

[dr1394]

The Pioneer 1394 interface uses fully open and standard
1394 protocols. Any manufacturer can build equipment
that will interoperate with the Pioneer 1394 digital
interface.

1394 audio also uses 5C/DTCP encryption. Right now, 5C
is probably the most sophisticated and most difficult
to break encryption technology available for consumer
electronics.

In the SACD 1.3 specification (Scarlet Book), an allowable
digital interface must use 5C/DTCP. Since 1394
is the only current interface that employs 5C/DTCP, it
can be said that 1394 is the only allowable digital
interface for SACD.

The standard digital audio interface is here now.

BTW, IEEE1394, Firewire and i.Link are all the same thing.
Firewire was invented by Apple (not Sony or Texas Instruments).
Although the Pioneer gear uses a Texas Instruments 1394
chip, there's nothing special about the chip. It's just
a new version of an older chip that has an integrated PHY
and has added the new 8-byte cipher length for 5C encrypted
1394 audio.

Ron

[Will]

The Pioneer 1394 interface uses fully open and standard 1394 protocols. Any manufacturer can build equipment that will interoperate with the Pioneer 1394 digital interface.

I'm confused. Is the Pioneer interface considered proprietary or is it an industry standard? Can I buy a current Denon or Onkyo or Toshiba or Yamaha product and have it interoperate with the Pioneer digital interface, for DVD-A?

[dr1394]

I'm confused. Is the Pioneer interface considered
proprietary or is it an industry standard?
Industry standard.
Can I buy a current Denon or Onkyo or Toshiba or
Yamaha product and have it interoperate with the Pioneer
digital interface, for DVD-A?
Not yet. Here's a link though:

http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/1202/13.firewire.shtml

Ron

[mfombellida]

The Pioneer iLink is standard and approved by the DVD Forum (it's IEEE1394), at the moment Pioneer is the only one with it.

But there is another I/F that will soon be standardized: HDMI. The iLink (aka IEEE1394) has limitations, it cannot pass uncompressed high-resolution video signal on top of high-rez audio, HDMI can (see www.hdmi.com), it is plan that HDMI will come on the market next year (Tag McLaren at least plans to support it between DVD-Player and pre/pro with video processor).

Michel

[Will]

Even though iLink and HDMI are standards, nothing interoperates between manufacturers yet. When will three different manufacturers have products using the same digital interface so a DVD-A player from one manufacturer can interoperate with a receiver from a second manufacturer or a pre/pro from a third, by sending DVD-A signals digitally through an industry standard interface? Thanks again!

[Kabillyhop]

I hope it doesn't happen any time soon... I just got all this new stuff and I can't afford to replace it all yet. :)

[Michael Mohrmann]

Kabillyhop,

"I hope it doesn't happen any time soon... I just got all this new stuff and I can't afford to replace it all yet."

If you are talking about your newly purchased Anthem AVM-20, you may be in luck. It appears that Anthem has been working on the IEEE1394 interface for the AVM-20, although there is no set date for its release (much like the digital standard itself!). There is a cutout on the back panel of the AVM-20 that will accept the IEEE1394 connector. So, it may be a matter of paying for an upgrade to the AVM-20 to get this interface, something on the order of $200-$500 would be my guess.

Michael

[Kabillyhop]

Thanks Michael. If Firewire becomes the standard then I guess all we'll need is the AVM upgrade and new DVD players. It will never end...

[Michael Mohrmann]

"Thanks Michael. If Firewire becomes the standard then I guess all we'll need is the AVM upgrade and new DVD players. It will never end..."

The cynic in me thinks that's part of the plan. Make it so you HAVE to upgrade, kind of like the PC world. Bloated software requires faster and bigger hardware, etc. At least I was able to upgrade our AVM-20 once after owning it for 6 months from version 1.x to version 2.x. If I can get an additional upgrade to Firewire, I will have really gotten my money's worth out of this processor.

It won't be quite so bad for us to have to upgrade. Our DVD player is over 3 years old, and our 9 years old 35" tube TV is starting to lose its tuner. If we can just hold out a little longer for some standard to be agreed upon, we can pull the trigger on some new DVD and TV purchases.

Michael

[Tom_Bombadil]

And for the time being, while you wait to recover your investment in existing gear and for the prices of 1394-equipped gear to come down, the present DVD-A and SACD players are getting cheaper and they will be perfectly usable for years through their analog connections.

Tom B.

[Kipp Jones]

Originally posted by mfombellida
The Pioneer iLink is standard and approved by the DVD Forum (it's IEEE1394), at the moment Pioneer is the only one with it.

But there is another I/F that will soon be standardized: HDMI. The iLink (aka IEEE1394) has limitations, it cannot pass uncompressed high-resolution video signal on top of high-rez audio, HDMI can (see www.hdmi.com), it is plan that HDMI will come on the market next year (Tag McLaren at least plans to support it between DVD-Player and pre/pro with video processor).

Michel

There is no need for 1394 to pass uncompressed HD signal. It can do it all just fine compressed like everything else. It starts compressed from the source.

[Sevenfeet]

Only Hollywood security paranoid lobbyists care about transmitting the signal uncompressed. The HDMI initiative is trying to market uncompressed video as an advantage. I know of no advantage to the consumer.

[Will]

Now I'm confused again. Is there a standard digital interface between DVD-A players and receivers and pre/pro's, or not? If there really is a standard, how come nobody's DVD-A player generates a digital signal that interoperates with any other vendor's pre/pro or receiver?

[sdurani]

Will,

From what I've read so far about Pioneer's digital interface, they are using off-the-shelf technology from Texas Instruments. Pioneer is probably the first to use it, so it's not an industry standard in any way. However, it does differ from proprietary schemes (that have been used so far) in at least one important way: there is nothing to stop other manufacturers from licensing the TI technology, allowing consumers to mix and match players and receivers/pre-pros from different brands.

Best,
Sanjay

[RobertR]

A friend of mine sent me this:

http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/1202/13.firewire.shtml

[dr1394]

there is nothing to stop other manufacturers from
licensing the TI technology
TI has nothing to do with it. All TI has done is build
a chip that implements all the required industry
standard protocols and 5C cipher for encrypted 1394
audio.

There's other 1394 Link Layer Controllers capable of
1394 audio. In fact, the LLC that I'm developing can
do 1394 audio right now. If you came to my lab tomorrow,
I could give you a demo of my chip receiving audio from
the DV-47Ai.

Ron

[sdurani]

http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/1202/13.firewire.shtml I might have missed something in that Audio Revolution news item, but it doesn't seem to contain any information that wasn't out A YEAR AGO. The article starts by saying "One of the biggest hurdles in the development of DVD-Audio was overcome in September, when the DVD Forum adopted FireWire as the digital transmission method for the DVD-Audio format." Yeah, that happened in "September" alright; September of 2001!!!

You can read the High Fidelity Review news story (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=402660) from December 2001, as well as the follow-up (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=424422). We even discussed this in a thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=103175) right here at AVS near the end of last year.

So, does the Audio Revolution news item have something new to add to the above information?

Best,
Sanjay

[sdurani]

Ron,TI has nothing to do with it.The iceLynx Micro interface that Pioneer uses is TI's Firewire solution. See this article (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=11086279).There's other 1394 Link Layer Controllers capable of 1394 audio. Do you know of any consumer electronic manufacturers that are using non-proprietary Firewire solutions from someone besides TI?

Best,
Sanjay

[dr1394]

Sanjay,

The 1394 audio specifications were still being completed
earlier this year. Audio and Music Data Transmission
Protocol version 2.1 is dated May 24, 2002. The 5C/DTCP
compliance rules for 1394 audio was completed June 10,
2002.

In addition, there were no 1394 Link Layer Controllers
with the correct 5C/DTCP cipher length for 1394 audio until
the new TI device (the TSB43CA43A) was introduced.

Given the length of design cycles, I'd say it's quite
commendable that Pioneer shipped in November.

Ron

[dr1394]

Do you know of any consumer electronic manufacturers
that are using non-proprietary Firewire solutions from
someone besides TI?
Not specifically. Here's a link to the device I'm currently
working on:

http://www.lsilogic.com/techlib/marketing_docs/consumer/domino_arch_pb.pdf

However, Domino is being targeted towards DVD recordable
and DVHS. It's a bit too expensive for DVD players.

There's another company doing 1394 audio:

http://www.bridgeco.net/

but I don't know much about their product.

BTW, why do you think that the TI solution is
proprietary? Firewire/1394 is an open standards
based protocol. There's nothing proprietary about
it.

Ron

[Will]

According to the HighFidelity Review article Sanjay linked to:

“By utilizing the IEEE-1394 technology from Texas Instruments, Pioneer is able to offer consumers a one-wire solution to digital connectivity.”

All that remains is for paranoid content providers to actually agree on the copy-protection specifics, a political rather than technical hurdle that unfortunately may prove difficult to overcome.

Have the content providers agreed yet on the copy-protection specifics?

[dr1394]

Have the content providers agreed yet on the
copy-protection specifics?
It's a done deal. The copy protection scheme is called
5C/DTCP. The non-secret part of the specification can
be downloaded from here:

http://www.dtcp.com/data/info_dtcp_v1.pdf

The SACD version 1.3 specification (Scarlet Book) dated
July 2002 specifically states that 5C/DTCP is the
only allowed copy protection scheme for SACD.
Since 1394 is the only interface that currently employs
5C/DTCP, it can be inferred that 1394 is the only
allowed digital interface for SACD.

Secure 1394 digital audio is in the bag. It's just
a waiting game now for other manufacturers to finish
their design cycle and introduce interoperable products.

Ron

[Ron1507]

Does the new B&K receiver have Firewire ports, and can the Pioneer 47Ai be used with it?

[Will]

Secure 1394 digital audio is in the bag. It's just a waiting game now for other manufacturers to finish their design cycle and introduce interoperable products.

As I understand it, Pioneer currently transfers DVD-A signals via firewire from their player to their receiver using internally I guess, the TI device (the TSB43CB43A).

Will future firewire-capable DVD-A players from Toshiba, Denon, Panasonic, etc. work with the current firewire-capable Pioneer receiver, and will future firewire-capable receivers from Toshiba, Denon, Panasonic, etc., work with the current firewire-capable Pioneer player?

[sdurani]

Ron,BTW, why do you think that the TI solution is proprietary? Firewire/1394 is an open standards based protocol. There's nothing proprietary about it.I wasn't saying that Firewire was proprietary, just the iceLynx Micro interface (unless you know of other companies besides TI that are licensing that particular interface, in which case I'd be wrong). Maybe I wasn't clear earlier or maybe we're using proprietary to mean different things.

Every company so far that has offered a DVD-A or SACD digital link scheme has done so using Firewire and their proprietary interface & encryption. As far as I know you can't, for example, use the digital link from Denon's player to feed a Meridian 861 pre-pro. You have to use players with receivers/pre-pros from the same company, and neither Denon nor Meridian nor dCS nor Sharp are allowing other manufacturers to use their particular interface.

On the other hand, the TI solution (from what the company reps have said) is available to anyone who wants to license their technology. Pioneer was the first to use it, but it's not proprietary to them. So it is possible, at least theoretically, for other manufacturers to use the iceLynx Micro interface on their products; which would then make those players, receivers and pre-pros compatible with the similarly equipped hardware that Pioneer is currently shipping. Yes?

BTW, what obstacles are you running into with your device?

Best,
Sanjay

[dr1394]

There's no license required from TI to purchase the
TSB43CA43A. However, you must be a paid-up member of
DTCP before TI will complete your purchase order.
There's a version of the chip (the TSB43CB43A) that
has the 5C/DTCP portion deleted that anybody can
purchase.

The digital links from Denon and Meridian may be similar
to Firewire, but they are most assuredly not Firewire.
Because they are not Firewire, they are proprietary.

As I stated before, my device already interoperates with
the TI TSB43CA43A (as implemented in the Pioneer DV-47Ai).
It follows the 1394a-2000, IEC-61883 and 5C/DTCP
specifications. That's all that is required.

Here's another way to think of it. The design of my device
was started over 3 years ago without any knowledge of
what TI was doing or even that 1394 digital audio was a
requirement. Yet today it works fine with the TI chip.
How could that be if the TI solution is in any way
proprietary?

I'm afraid you've attributed too much myth and black magic
to 1394 audio. I assure you that there's nothing proprietary
going on. Manufacturers can use the TI solution, other
1394 chip vendors solutions or design their own in-house
solution (which lot's of Japanese companies prefer to do)
and all of them can interoperate on the 1394 bus together.

Ron

[sdurani]

Ron,Here's another way to think of it. The design of my device was started over 3 years ago without any knowledge of what TI was doing or even that 1394 digital audio was a requirement. Yet today it works fine with the TI chip. How could that be if the TI solution is in any way
proprietary?Ah, I think understand what you were trying to say (finally). Like Linux; RedHat may have its own version, but Linux itself is not proprietary to them. And Linux based products form other companies can interoperate with the RedHat product.Manufacturers can use the TI solution, other 1394 chip vendors solutions or design their own in-house solution (which lot's of Japanese companies prefer to do) and all of them can interoperate on the 1394 bus together.But if that were possible, why haven't manufacturers done this already? Or was Pioneer just really fast getting out of the gate?

Best,
Sanjay

[Will]

Since according to Ron, the secure (5C/DTCP) IEEE 1394 for DVD audio specification is defined enough to be implemented, and since the TI chip supports the full implementation of secure (5C/DTCP) IEEE 1394 for DVD audio, and since Pioneer has already implemented the spec in products that have been out for a while, I have to ask why is Pioneer so far the only vendor to use the TI chip to implement the standard DVD Audio digital specification?

How come no other mass-market manufacturer has announced a DVD player or a receiver that will be out in a month or two, that uses the secure firewire standard interface that so far, only Pioneer has implemented? Pioneer has shown it can be done. The TI chip is available for other mass-market manufacturers to use.

What's holding up the other mass-market manufactuers? Why haven't they announced some pending products that will be available in a month or two?

[prestidigital]

Originally posted by Will
What's holding up the other mass-market manufacturers? Why haven't they announced some pending products that will be available in a month or two?

I can appreciate your impatience (as I share it completely), but unfortunately there are a several cascading layers of chicken/egg dilemma here. First is the issue of hardware availability: until there is a critical mass of similarly-enabled products out there, the 1394/5C connectivity will likely hurt sales by raising product cost while adding no true benefit. The second dilemma is related: until the products gain a viable foothold in the marketplace, consumer exposure is too low to create a demand for the feature and hence differentially reward products that include it. The third tier is the availability of software: until enough players have been sold and enough consumers are willing to pay for the new content, studios will be reluctant to release enough multichannel content to make it worthwhile to own the players. In other words, until most of the receivers and DVD players at the MondoTronics SuperStores support it and the local Vinyl What? music stores carry the discs, digital multichannel is not going to achieve major acceptance; until that happens, product availability will be fitful and costly. Remind you of (*cough* HDTV *cough*) anything else?

The real question, of course, is how to jump-start that process. Eventually it will happen, if only because on or more of the major Japanese consumer electronics houses will embrace and evangelize the standard. Given its other interests, Sony would seem to be well-positioned to lead the charge, but it is not known for its quick response or bold moves. Even if a company such as Sony were to make a major push for the technology, its product cycles would be far longer than the few months its been since the standards have been finalized; its entire business model is predicated on extensive optimization of the technology/design/manufacturing gestalt to achieve maximum return on a massive investment in long-lived families of products, not surfing the leading edge of trends.

The usual pattern is for new interfaces like this pop up in a product here and there for a while (e.g., the Pioneer receiver mentioned earlier), rewarding the determined early adopter but preceding widespread acceptance by at least a year. Even as more products begin to appear, many of the earliest will be first-generation efforts developed as much to gain experience with the technology as to produce great products. The second generation begins to get it right, and the third lowers the cost (in large part via mass-produced integrated ASICs) to the point that it is feasible for lower-end products. I would like to think that this cycle could be compressed to some extent, but it is hard to avoid the passing through the stages. The fact that many of the necessary components (e.g., 1394 PHY ICs) are already widely available may accelerate development, but it will still take time to work out the kinks.

The other X-factor in this situation is the potential for trouble with the MPAA/RIAA. Their zealous/maniacal concern for protecting their IP has already delayed this and many other products significantly. Now, even on the cusp of apparent success, it remains to be seen whether they will truly embrace the technology or continue to stonewall the digital systems. I would like to say that the prospects are good, but considering the Jack Valentis of the world are still trying to outlaw VCRs, I take nothing for granted.

That all said, I am extremely interested to see what some of the smaller "boutique" vendors (e.g., Tag McLaren) might be able to do with this. Mass-market solutions are a while off, and Meridian/Accuphase would be prohibitively expensive even if they did follow the standards, but companies such as Tag with small product lines, moderate price sensitivity, high performance, and a strong commitment to continued improvement (and indeed upgradability) would seem to hit the sweet spot here. Of course, Tag itself just spent a ton getting out its analog multichannel products, but it (or others like it) still seem likely to come out with something good in this arena.

Another possibility would be Onkyo/Integra, which has long offered a vestigial 1394 port in its high-end products. Unfortunately, the cost and complexity of incorporating the 5C content control system and the other new interface protocols make it unlikely that they will simply release a digital multichannel firmware upgrade anytime soon (if ever). Still, they are obviously interested in the potential, and may be willing to push the pace a bit.

[prestidigital]

One clarification to the above:

I mentioned TAG McLaren above as the TYPE of company that might push something like the 1394/5C audio. While that may well be true, as Michel mentioned earlier TMA itself is strongly committed to the DVI/HDMI/DVD-V approach and seems aggressively opposed to any 1394-based solution. Their decision seems rooted in a combination of bandwidth concerns (i.e., 1394's being insufficient to route uncompressed HD video) and a belief that SACD/DVD-A offer at best dubious audio advantages insufficient to justify the additional digital connectivity. While it once touted its 1394 expansion capability, TMA has as much said that it will add 1394 audio-only digital multichannel if and only if the market insists -- don't hold your breath for anything from them.

I have my own thoughts on the subject, but I wanted to make sure that I did not give the wrong impression of TAG McLaren's approach. I would be interested to hear from Mark or anyone else from TAG to get the straight dope, but I think that its position has been made fairly clear.

[Craig F]

Ron,

Many have complained that 1394 is a bad solution because it is inherently jittery (due to packet decoding rather than steady stream of data). I feel that 1394 is, potentially, a better solution because packet transmission allows for error correction. Does the TI chip have the necessary buffering to eliminate packet jitter built in, or does it have to be done externally?

[Will]

The third tier is the availability of software: until enough players have been sold and enough consumers are willing to pay for the new content, studios will be reluctant to release enough multichannel content to make it worthwhile to own the players. In other words, until most of the receivers and DVD players at the MondoTronics SuperStores support it and the local Vinyl What? music stores carry the discs, digital multichannel is not going to achieve major acceptance; until that happens, product availability will be fitful and costly.

Actually, people are buying quite a few DVD-A &/or SACD players right now, even though they have to also get 6 additional cables in order to hear DVD-A &/or SACD, assuming they want to actually hear DVD-A &/or SACD on their players. Some people I suspect, buy DVD-A &/or SACD players because it's a feature they feel is important down the road, even if they don't actually connnect them up to use DVD-A &/or SACD.

Assuming the price for digital DVD-A is reasonable, and I think when they become mass marketed, they will be (like analog DVD-A players are now) there already is I think the critical mass of people who would buy digital DVD-A players. Afterall there already is a critical mass of people who would are buying analog DVD-A players even though they have to also get 6 cables to hear DVD-A on it, and those cables aren't free.

Remind you of (*cough* HDTV *cough*)

Yes. :) very much. Many people who have an HDTV today do not own an STB. But they wanted to buy their HD ready TV, anyway.

[sdurani]

Will,I have to ask why is Pioneer so far the only vendor to use the TI chip to implement the standard DVD Audio digital specification?

How come no other mass-market manufacturer has announced a DVD player or a receiver that will be out in a month or two, that uses the secure firewire standard interface that so far, only Pioneer has implemented? That's the part I'm surprised about. I can understand Pioneer being the only one out with this interface; after all, somebody has to be first. But I don't understand why there haven't at the very least been announcements from other manufacturers. Oh well, maybe at CES next month.

Best,
Sanjay

[dr1394]

Originally posted by Craig F
Ron,

Many have complained that 1394 is a bad solution because it is inherently jittery (due to packet decoding rather than steady stream of data). I feel that 1394 is, potentially, a better solution because packet transmission allows for error correction. Does the TI chip have the necessary buffering to eliminate packet jitter built in, or does it have to be done externally?

The TI TSB43CA43A has a pretty good size FIFO at 16.5
kbytes. More importantly, it has programmable data/space
available indicators that help to implement the rate
control algorithm.

The rate control algorithm is accomplished by the receiver
monitoring the level of it's receive FIFO. If the level
is slowly increasing, a message is sent to the source
to slow down audio packet transmission. Likewise, if the
level is decreasing, a message is sent to the source to
speed up. Pioneer calls this "PQLS", but it's just another
standard 1394 protocol called "AV/C Command Set for Rate
Control of Isochronous Data Flow 1.0".

So with a little buffering and a pretty simple rate
control algorithm, jitter is not a concern. Pioneer
touts PQLS as "zero jitter". The only down side to
rate control is that a source can only be controlled
by one receiver. Most folks don't connect a source to
multiple receivers, so it's probably not a big concern.

As for packet errors, there's no facility in 1394 to deal
with errors. Retransmission is not useful since the
bitstream can't be delayed. FEC is possible, but noone
implements it. However, I wouldn't worry about that. From
my experience, the error rate of 1394 is zero (in a
properly functioning system).

Ron

[dr1394]

I have to ask why is Pioneer so far the only vendor
to use the TI chip to implement the standard DVD Audio
digital specification?
This is just speculation on my part. Pioneer used the
previous generation TI 1394 device (the CeLynx or TSB42AA4)
in their DVR-7000 DVD recorder. The two companies developed
a close relationship (possibly love/hate) getting the CeLynx
working in the DVR-7000. They were "in bed with each other"
on the development of the TSB43CA43A.

Ron

[AndreYew]

Sanjay,

Meridian doesn't use Firewire. I think they use 3 coax cables carrying their own protocol.

--Andre

[sdurani]

Andre,

Got it, thanx. I was trying to think of manufacturers that had digital links for DVD-A and Meridian is the first one that came to mind.

Sanjay

[Craig F]

Thanks for the info, Ron.

I’m glad to hear it’s a fully integrated solution. :)

[Will]

Ron,


why is Pioneer so far the only vendor to use the TI chip to implement the standard DVD Audio digital specification?

This is just speculation on my part. Pioneer used the previous generation TI 1394 device in their DVR-7000 DVD recorder. The two companies developed a close relationship

Thanks Ron. :) Do you know of any other audio company that will use TI's 1394 device soon for digital DVD-A transmission, besides Pioneer? Since the TI device is available now and it supports the DVD Audio standard as you've said, I'm curious who else will be using it for that, in addition to Pioneer.

Will

[DanielSmi]

I'm think Pioneer is finally living up to it's name and being a Pioneer they were the first receiver to incorporate any sortof room correction system and now the first with a non- proproetary digital dvd-a and SACD interface.

Ron,

I told that this interface would transfer all SACD titles and only DVD-A titles that weren't copy protected. Is this true or can the 49txi/47ai combo transfer all DVD-A's and SACD's? I was also under the impression that if the info was sent in packets then there would be no jitter and that jitter was because it was streamed data, could you clarify? Also does that mean that DD and DTS signals have jitter I thought they were immune to it. But now that I think about it isn't DD and DTS also streamed because aren't they measured in bits and not bytes? As you can see I'm alittle confused.

Daniel Smith

[DanielSmi]

Ron,

I noticed on the Domino chip you are working it also transmits video, now the 49txi i.Link port is designed soley for audio; if I bought a product that incorporated your chip and plugged it into the txi would I have any problem with audio if your chip also transmitted video, or could you turn the video option off if you wanted?

Daniel Smith

[dr1394]

I was told that this interface would transfer all
SACD titles and only DVD-A titles that weren't copy
protected. Is this true or can the 49txi/47ai combo
transfer all DVD-A's and SACD's?
The 49txi/47ai combo passes all DVD-A and SACD bitstreams.
I've seen it do so myself with a 1394 bus analyzer. The only
restriction on 1394 content is that copy protected 96 kHz
DVD-Video disks are downsampled to 48 kHz. Why this
is, I have no clue. Given that there aren't many 96 kHz DVD-
Video disks in existence, I'd say this is a minor issue.
I was also under the impression that if the info was
sent in packets then there would be no jitter and that
jitter was because it was streamed data, could you clarify?

Generally, it's the other way around. Packet based interfaces
often have lot's of jitter. In fact, at the packet level,
1394 has tons of jitter. The 1394 packet arrival time is
controlled by a timestamp that uses ticks from a 24.576 MHz
clock. 24.576 MHz ticks are 40.6 nanoseconds long, so the
potential jitter of 1394 packets is 40.6 ns (which is huge).

But the packet jitter is not a concern because we
have to process the contents of the packets to extract
the audio samples. The easiest way to do this is to use
a microprocessor and some buffer memory. At startup, the
receiver waits a little while for the buffer to become half
full. Then it starts demuxing the audio samples and sends
them to the DACS. As long as the buffer never under or
overflows, we can send a steady (zero jitter) string of
samples to the DACS. To avoid buffer under or overflow, the
receiver controls the rate that the player sends packets
with messages over the same 1394 connection. The player
ends up being slaved to whatever rate the DACS are consuming
samples (the audio clock, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4 or 192
kHz for CD and DVD-A or 2.8224 MHz for SACD).
Also does that mean that DD and DTS signals have
jitter I thought they were immune to it. But now that I
think about it isn't DD and DTS also streamed because
aren't they measured in bits and not bytes?
DD and DTS bitstreams are different because they must be
decoded first. Again, a microprocessor or DSP with some
buffer memory is used and smooths things out in pretty
much the same way as described above.
I noticed on the Domino chip you are working it also
transmits video, now the 49txi i.Link port is designed
solely for audio; if I bought a product that incorporated
your chip and plugged it into the txi would I have any
problem with audio if your chip also transmitted video, or
could you turn the video option off if you wanted?
1394 devices can be queried as to what their capabilites
are. If a 49txi is on the 1394 bus, the Domino chip will
find out that it can only handle 1394 audio streams and
it will only send it audio streams. If you try to send
an A/V (MPEG-2 or DV) stream to the 49txi, the Domino
will say "I can't do that Daniel" in it's best HAL-like
voice (just kidding, probably more like a message will
pop up on the menu display).

Ron

[Will]

I was told that this interface would transfer all SACD titles and only DVD-A titles that weren't copy protected. Is this true or can the 49txi/47ai combo transfer all DVD-A's and SACD's?

The 49txi/47ai combo passes all DVD-A and SACD bitstreams. I've seen it do so myself with a 1394 bus analyzer. The only restriction on 1394 content is that copy protected 96 kHz
DVD-Video disks are downsampled to 48 kHz. Why this is, I have no clue. Given that there aren't many 96 kHz DVD-Video disks in existence, I'd say this is a minor issue.

Doesn't the DVD-A digital interface (with 5C/DTCP compliance rules for 1394 audio) permit copy restrictions for DVD-A, not just DVD-Video?

[dr1394]

Doesn't the DVD-A digital interface (with 5C/DTCP
compliance rules for 1394 audio) permit copy restrictions
for DVD-A, not just DVD-Video?
The DV-47Ai sends all formats on 1394. Here's what I've
tested so far:

1) 44.1/16 PCM from regular CD's is sent in the clear, or
"copy free" (no copy flags set).

2) AC-3 and DTS from DVD-Video disks is sent encrypted with
the "no more copies" flag set. Likewise for AC-3 and
DTS from DVD-Audio disks.

3) DVD-A and SACD are sent encrypted with the "copy never"
flag set. The "copy never" flag provides a higher level
of protection since the authentication procedure is more
strict than for "no more copies".

I haven't tried any sort of PCM from DVD-Video. I'll see
if I can dig up some disks with PCM. Also, I'll try to
find a 96 kHz DVD-Video disk to see if it's being down-
sampled as stated by Pioneer.

Ron

[prestidigital]

Speaking of 1394 connections, there's news on the "convergence" front. It was recently reported (http://news.com.com/2100-1040-978516.html) that a major group of television manufacturers and cable companies have agreed to allow digital signals to be passed to HDTV displays, HT processors, and other devices.

Mind you, the accord was reached without involvement (much less approval) of the content producers and the satellite services. It also still needs to be officially endorsed by the by the FCC before having any legal force. There's a ways to go before we'll get access to this.

That said, it is still encouraging to see major players commit to enabling digital output. True, there will be content management systems -- something that may yet come back to bite the consumer, depending how things ultimately get flagged -- but the agreement specifically endorses support for routing content over local networks via FireWire for applications such as HTPCs.

What do you think? Do you think the other folks (especially the Hollywood studios) will go for it? Will this provide a critical mass to the 5C/1394 approach?

[mfombellida]

Prestdigital: was it said explicitely that this format was 1394... I have some doubts that it is in fact HDMI... look at this page: http://www.hdmi.org/

Michel

[prestidigital]

Originally posted by mfombellida
Prestdigital: was it said explicitely that this format was 1394...
From the original article:"Digital recorders that rely on high-speed FireWire connections would also be supported."

It's a bit thin on the particulars, but that sounds like 1394 to me.

The article also states that "digital consumers would be able to hook up everything from home-theater speakers to data networks that allow viewing elsewhere in the house."

Given that 1394 is a network medium and HDMI is point-to-point, there isn't much wiggle room there. Though I won't bother quoting it, the content-flagging method described in the article also sounds like 5C.

The article may not have many details, but I think we have to infer that they agreed to use 1394/5C.

Originally posted by mfombellida
look at this page: http://www.hdmi.org/
Though it doesn't mention this latest announcement, the DTCP (http://www.dtcp.com/) may be more pertinent here.

In an interesting wrinkle, Sony and Phillips are specifically mentioned in the article as supporting the new agreement. That makes sense -- they both have developed 1394/5C chips and other related products.

As you can see from a recent press release (http://www.hdmi.org/press/release_120902.asp), however, they are both also listed as founding (and presumably supportive) members of the consortium presenting the just-released HDMI 1.0 specification.

I really don't understand how the politics behind this all work. I can understand wanting to hedge one's bets by keeping a toe in each camp, but how can they simultaneously lobby for two competing standards -- especially since the one thing they DON'T want to do is have to build in support for both. One could speculate that companies may be desperate for digital/HD products to rejuvenate an otherwise saturated and depressed market; in the end, they may care less about the format than about selling the new systems.

As it stands, however, the electronics manufacturers and the cable companies seem to be pushing 1394/5C. We'll have to see how the other players respond, but since so many of the relevant parties (e.g. Sony, AOL/Time Warner) wear multiple hats, I have to believe that the other communities are at least leaning that way as well.

[Craig F]

I haven't tried any sort of PCM from DVD-Video. I'll see
if I can dig up some disks with PCM. Also, I'll try to
find a 96 kHz DVD-Video disk to see if it's being down-
sampled as stated by Pioneer.
Any DVD-A disc from AIX has a 2 channel 96kHz track on the DVD-Video zone without the copy protect flag set.

Also, some new releases from MDG are adding 48kHz/20-bit 6 channel PCM on the DVD-Video zone. This is something new, I wonder if the link would pass this stream.
Beethoven’s Missa Solemnis, MDG 937 1128-5
Debussy/ Ravel: Orchestral Works, MDG 937 1099-5

[jheoaustin]

dr1394,

Could you answer my dumb questions?

1. Is DD/DTS audio track in DVD-V transmitted over 1394 in undecoded(or compressed) format? Is there any possibility that player decodes and output multichannel PCM over 1394?

2. Is MLP compressed data sent over 1394? Or decoded high-resolution PCM sent?

3. Is DSD data sent over 1394 for SACD? Or Loesslessly compressed DST data sent over?

Thank you in advance for your reply. :)

[mfombellida]

Taken from the Tag McLaren web page:

"A DVD Forum guideline exists for a manner in which IEEE1394/Firewire can be used to convey either:

-MPEG video + 2-ch linear PCM Audio
or
-MPEG video + Dolby AC3/MPEG1/MPEG2 compressed audio
or
"high quality" audio without video using Sony's A&M Protocol.

Interested parties will find the guideline in its 0.9 revision at www.dvdforum.org. In all cases a form of copy protection is required, DTCP being the proposed system. Various manufacturers are working on implementations of the system but there is much to do before this can become a viable format.

HDMI is gathering pace and stands alone as a method for conveying uncompressed digital video, and also stands alone in allowing digital video to be transferred at the same time as high quality audio up to and beyond DVD-Audio rates. Again, a specification exists at rev 0.9 but a specification review agreement has to be signed before you can get hold of it, so members of the public do not have easy access to the details. And again, manufacturers are working on implementations of the system but there remains much to do.

Even when implementations of these systems become available, we must not forget that the DVD Copy Control Association have yet to ratify any means of digital video transfer from a DVD player, though both IEEE1394+DTCP and DVI+HDCP are specifically mentioned in the license agreement as candidates that might be approved subject to the agreement of a sufficient proportion of the content providers. Bear in mind that it is the difficulty in getting the agreement of these content providers that has delayed the approval of PAL progressive, and the popular view is that it will be at least another 6 months before even this comes to pass.

It is likely to be some time before any winners emerge in the AV data transfer arena. It is worth noting that DVI and '1394 are not directly competing in that one is a point-to-point connection system, the other a bus-based system, so they will differ somewhat in the applications for which they are best suited -> they may well end up co-existing (as they do in their current incarnations for their respective tasks).

John Mulcahy, Head of Engineering, TAG McLaren Audio from UK 8/8/02 6:27:12 PM "

Tag plans at the moment to support HDMI only.

Michel

[dr1394]

Originally posted by jheoaustin
dr1394,

Could you answer my dumb questions?

1. Is DD/DTS audio track in DVD-V transmitted over 1394 in undecoded(or compressed) format? Is there any possibility that player decodes and output multichannel PCM over 1394?

2. Is MLP compressed data sent over 1394? Or decoded high-resolution PCM sent?

3. Is DSD data sent over 1394 for SACD? Or Loesslessly compressed DST data sent over?

Thank you in advance for your reply. :)
Actually, those are pretty good questions.

1) DD/DTS is sent compressed. There may be an option
to convert to PCM. I'll get back to you on that after
I test it.

2) Decoded hi-rez PCM.

3) DSD.

Ron

[DanielSmi]

Ok now I have a question for you Dr.
There is a debate going on as to whether the 49txi/47ai combo converts DSD to PCM before sending it through the i.Link connection. Pioneer claimed at CEDIA that the combo kept the signal in the DSD format the whole time. But now people are saying that's not possible because of the DAC's that the txi has (BB PCM1704) can't handle SACD signal and they are claiming that the combo downconverts the signal to 88.2kHz. They also say that there aren't any SACD chips that don't convert the signal to PCM for bass management not even the ones Sony uses. I sent this question to Pioneer a few months ago and haven't gotten a response and don't expect to, so could you help?

Daniel Smith

[John Kotches]

Daniel,

I don't know the specifics of the implementation, however.....

The Pioneer DV-47ai can handle SACD decode natively internally, ie no DSD -> PCM conversion. That being the case, the logical solution would be to transfer the DSD data across the wire, and allow the Receiver to handle it. A single DSP and/or an ASIC could handle the PCM --> DSD conversion on the fly.

Bass management is handled by the "DSD Chips", it is handled by Digital Signal Processors. This is the case everywhere. The Sony players that I've worked with that had bass management did an internal DSD --> PCM --> DSD conversion so that bass management could be applied.

In short, there's a dearth of DSPs that can handle bass management on native DSD streams.

Perhaps Ron knows of a solution.

Regards,

[Philip Brandes]

Originally posted by John Kotches
Bass management is handled by the "DSD Chips", it is handled by Digital Signal Processors. This is the case everywhere. The Sony players that I've worked with that had bass management did an internal DSD --> PCM --> DSD conversion so that bass management could be applied.

In short, there's a dearth of DSPs that can handle bass management on native DSD streams.


John,

There seems to be a great deal of confusion about this particular issue--even among Sony and Philips representatives. At the last AES Conference, I tried to get a definitive answer, and even Andrew Demery didn't know for sure, but he passed me "backstage" to talk with Sony's SACD engineers. According to Muneyasu Maeda, Sony's Senior SACD Generalist who oversaw development, Sony's second generation DSD decoding chip (the one that offers bass management) does all its processing entirely in the DSD domain, with no PCM conversion at all. He was quite emphatic on this point.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

[DanielSmi]

Is there anyway to indentify this chip is there a model # so we could know if the 47ai uses this chip? you can prolly find internal pics of the 47ai on the net.

Daniel Smith

[jheoaustin]

dr1394,

Thank you so much for your reply. I guess you meant "undecoded" DD/DTS, not uncompressed...:)

[John Kotches]

Philip,

Please pardon my skepticism on this topic.

The problem is we don't know the internals of the chip, it's a piece of magic silicon. What we know is input and output is DSD. We don't know what happens between input and ouput.

Regards,

[Philip Brandes]

Originally posted by jheoaustin
Philips/John,

I don't think Sony representative told you the truth. I know DSD should be converted to PCM at any case in order to apply some digital signal processing. I have some related example that I cannot disclose, and it tells me DSD should be converted to PCM for DSP.
Converting processed PCM back to DSD would induce a lot of potential issue and definitely some quality degradation by noise shaping artifact. Even with DSD DAC, they can still use PCM as actual DSD playback format. I don't think converting DSD to PCM would apply more degradation than analog LPF required at the end of pure DSD playback.

I am always interested in the most accurate information possible. I have no vested interest in the answer coming out one way or the other on this question. However, I made a point of tracing this through a number of SACD reps at the Audio Engineering Society 2002 Conference, and Mr. Maeda impressed me not only by his credentials but by the fact that he had no reason to lie to me.

If I am going to be convinced otherwise, it would have to be on the basis of more solid factual evidence and a more authoritative source than an anonymous internet handle citing information he cannot disclose.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

[dr1394]

Originally posted by jheoaustin
dr1394,

Thank you so much for your reply. I guess you meant "undecoded" DD/DTS, not uncompressed...:)
Doh! Thanx for catching that. I've edited my post to
be correct.

Ron

[r1lee]

Philip, I believe your right. I also heard from somewhere that the second generation DSD chip (in the new Sony 999ES DVD player) does all the processing in the digital domain. That's Bass management, and time delay.

[Will]

Has a standard digital interface with copy protection been agreed to for SACD, like it's been agreed to for DVD-A?

[DanielSmi]

Will like we've been saying i.Link i.Link i.Link!!! i.Link transfers all SACD's digitally. The thing about DSD to PCM to DSD conversion has nothing to do with copy protection it's about the fact that there are supposedly no DSP's that can BM or Time-alignment in DSD form it has to convert it to PCM for that. This isn't a digital to analog conversion it's a digital DSD to digital PCM conversion. The experts in the business including Pioneer reps, John Kotches, Dr. 1394, and a SACD engineer say the new chips don't convert the DSD signal to PCM while people that don't seem to be experts and can't disclose their sources plus other people not in the business on other forums say that it does convert to PCM. So you decide. Again this is nothing to do with copy protection that question has already been answered, this topic is alittle off topic from the original topic of the thread but that's how these threads work.

Daniel Smith

[Will]

i.Link transfers all SACD's digitally.

Please excuse my naive question, but what is the current status of SACD i.Link today? Today, can I buy an SACD player from one manufacturer, and connect it digitally via i.Link to a receiver from any other manufacturer?

Thanks,

Will

[mfombellida]

Will,

At the moment I think your choice is quite limited: you can buy a Pioneer DVD player with the standard iLink output and connect it to a Pioneer receiver with the standard iLink input :-) I guess more will come...

Michel

[DanielSmi]

Will the mode of transportation is there other companies have start using it. We've already discussed this.

Daniel Smith

[Will]

I think I get it now. Not only is Pioneer the only company so far to implement the digital DVD-A standard but also, Pioneer is the only company so far to implement the digital SACD standard.

Also, I think you guys are saying that even though no other company interconnects with the Pioneer digital interface today, that whenever other companies bring forth products that do implement the standard digital DVD-A and standard SACD interfaces, these other products should interoperate with the current Pioneer DVD players and Pioneer receivers that have the i.Link.

Thanks,

Will

[DanielSmi]

Yes Will you're correct.

Daniel Smith

[DanielSmi]

Yes, Will you're correct.

Daniel Smith

[mfombellida]

Yes, Will you are correct as far as iLink (ieee 1394) becomes the ONLY standard which is not totally sure yet as there is at least another possible format (HDMI), Tag Mac Laren for example will support HDMI and not ieee 1394. IMHO things still need to mature a bit.

Michel

[Will]

I think most players today that play DVD-A or SACD play either DVD-A or SACD, but not both. If I understand it correctly, today the only player with a standard digital interface plays both formats.

Will most of the new players with a multichannel standard digital interface play both DVD-A and SACD or just one format?

Thanks,

Will

[hongcho]

Originally posted by Will
I think most players today that play DVD-A or SACD play either DVD-A or SACD, but not both. If I understand it correctly, today the only player with a standard digital interface plays both formats.

I think Pioneer 45A, which does not have the i.Link interface, also plays both formats. And I think even 47Ai have analog multi-channel outputs.

Will most of the new players with a multichannel standard digital interface play both DVD-A and SACD or just one format

This would be difficult to tell. I think Sony seems to be quite adamant about pure SACD players seeing that the format is theirs. Also, it's a licensing issue, so I guess it will depend on the willingness of the manufacturers on the added cost. And besides, I think the even bigger problem is the "software" support. There really isn't enough.

Hong.

[mfombellida]

By the way, Linn appears to sell a nice universal player development
kit (developed with the help of Sony):
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=15648048

And they already build their own universal player on this base:
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=19720975

Michel

[Will]

Now that CES is here, has any mass-market manufacturer besides Pioneer announced a DVD player or a receiver using the new secure firewire interface that so far, only Pioneer has implemented?

Also, could someone post a web address for what's new at CES in terms of home theater?

Will

[mfombellida]

Three good sources of information about the CES:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/theexpo2003/
http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/ces2003/
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/index.asp

MSB is releasing a universal player with firewire, Lexicon is introducing a player but without any high-rez digital I/F but said they could upgrade it to firewire. Meridian is going for HDMI. I don't have the details of the other mass-market brands yet.

Michel

[Utopia]

http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/1202/13.firewire.shtml

Why cant HDAUDIO get on the same page by agreeing to the same Digital Out? Wouldn't that be nice! Maybe even there sales would increase! Amazing how that might work. I just wonder who the morons are in charge of the HDAUDIO circus. Consumers are paying for all this delay and indecision by content providers for standardized agreement for HDTV and HDAUDIO.


But not me. I simply refuse to buy into HDAUDIO untill they keep everything in the digital realm. It is absurd to do extra D/A and A/D on a digital signal and need an aditional 6 analog cables, with out ant BM, etc... What do they think were stupid or sumthing?



HDAUDIO=DVDA and SCAD
BM=Bass management

[mfombellida]

Utopia,

Firewire is agreed for both DVD-A and SACD! The problem is that some companies (mainly those who need Hi-rez video) are now looking at HDMI as an alternative but as of today HDMI is not allowed to pass SACD nor DVD-A... that may change.

We could end up with 2 alternatives: firewire for audio only and HDMI for audio+video.

At least at the moment, we have several brands going for firewire. We should now more this year, at least now the chips are available.

Michel

[Steve Dodds]

Admittedly I have full range speakers all around, but I've never really seen the need for a digital interface, and certainly not a hodge podge one. The Firewire interface in the Pioneer converts SACD to PCM, and, according to the measurements in Hi Fi News, increases jitter for CD and DVD-A.

The initial cost is a lot more than some extra cable, and it has to be converted to analog at some stage anyway.

Unless you can keep the signal all digital so you can do things like amplification and EQ, I'm really in no hurry to trade up.

Steve

[mfombellida]

> Firewire interface in the Pioneer converts SACD to PCM...

From the information I have this is not true. The interface passes DSD unaltered but what is true is that once the signal is in the Pioneer AV receiver it is then converted to PCM (32bit, 48 khz) to allow processing like the MACC room eq and other bass management as there is no way to process DSD at the moment.

Michel

[mfombellida]

>Unless you can keep the signal all digital so you can do things like amplification and EQ, I'm really in no hurry to trade up.

That's precisely what I am looking for. I have a TacT RCS 2.2x and 2 TacT digital amps. TacT mentioned that they will most likely upgrade to firewire on their new TCS2 which is supposed to be introduced at CES. Note that in this case the signal will be converted to PCM anyway but at high resolution.

Michel

[Ron1507]

Originally posted by mfombellida
> Firewire interface in the Pioneer converts SACD to PCM...

From the information I have this is not true. The interface passes DSD unaltered but what is true is that once the signal is in the Pioneer AV receiver it is then converted to PCM (32bit, 48 khz) to allow processing like the MACC room eq and other bass management as there is no way to process DSD at the moment.

Michel Not 48khz, 88.2khz/32bits.

[cajunlab]

I have the 49TXi/47Ai combo.
When playing through the firewire cable only a Stereo(2-channel) SACD will only produce sound through the L&R speakers only.
You can NOT get sound through the other speakers, not even with DPL2, THX or anything.
So IF the DSD was converted to PCM why can't it be processed to come out more than 2 speakers?

[cajunlab]

Now I have to look for SACD's that clearly say "multichannel".
But it is not that simple. Alison Krauss' "New Favourite" SACD is labeled "Stereo" but it is actually multichannel & comes out all 7.1 speakers.
I am so frustrated with SACD.
DVD-A is now my first choice because of this SACD BS.

[mosco]

Since Apple just released Computers with 1394b or Firewire 2, how does that play a role in anything. Firewire 2 has double the bandwidth and i think it can go higher depending on the type of cable that is used. But it also has a different kind of connector.

{edit for spelling}

[dr1394]

Since Apple just released Computers with 1394b or
Firewire 2, how does that play a role in anything.
Not for 1394 audio. The current maximum rate for 1394 audio
is 6 channel SACD which is 30.1056 Mbps. Less than 1/10
of the 320 Mbps of isochronous bandwidth available at
the 400 Mbps signalling rate.

Right now, 1394b makes the most sense for external hard
drives (where the extra bandwidth can actually be
utilized).

Ron

[Craig F]

So IF the DSD was converted to PCM why can't it be processed to come out more than 2 speakers?Current DSPs can not process over 48kHz PCM for DPL II. Using this resolution negates the whole purpose of hi-resolution audio.

[Will]

Wow, that's a lot of information. :)

Now that CES is over, has any mass-market manufacturer besides Pioneer announced a DVD-A player or receiver that uses the new secure firewire standard interface that so far, only Pioneer uses?

Thanks!

Will

[DanielSmi]

The only thing I've heard is plans of upgrades like Lexicon I think announced something like that with their RT-10 dvd player which is based of the 47ai and Anthem is said to be planning something along with B7K I think though nothing official from any of these comapnies.

Daniel Smith

[sfogg]

Craig,

"Current DSPs can not process over 48kHz PCM for DPL II. "

That isn't correct. I can input 96kHz PCM and process it with DPLII just fine.

Some processors may have a limitation in this regard, for example Tags did but I don't know if they still do, but it isn't universal.

Shawn

[DanielSmi]

Shawn, may I ask what disk you are using that has 96kHz PCM and isn't copy protected? I actually want to know. Are you sure that it's not being down converted? I know there are discs out there that have 96/24 PCM and aren't copy protected but it is rare. Also are you using analog or digital inputs into your receiver or pre/pro and what receiver or pre/pro are you using? I know with the 49TX and TXi you can't use DPLII with 96/24.

Daniel Smith

[sfogg]

Daniel,

"may I ask what disk you are using that has 96kHz PCM and isn't copy protected?"

The older DVD-V disks from Chesky which had 96kHz tracks.

"Are you sure that it's not being down converted?"

That will depend upon the player that is playing them. My Pioneer 434 outputs the 96kHz track without downsampling, my Sony doesn't.

"Also are you using analog or digital inputs into your receiver or pre/pro and what receiver or pre/pro are you using?"

For the disks above that is with a digital connection.

I can use both though and the analog actually shows that point again since it does it analog to digital conversion at 96/24 and you can again apply DPLII processing there as well. Or I can use the record zone to upsample regular 44.1/16 material to 96/24 and then apply DPLII to the signal. This is on a MC-12B.

Shawn

[sdurani]

Daniel, Lexicon I think announced something like that with their RT-10 dvd player which is based of the 47ai...I think the Lexicon RT-10 is based on the 47A, not the 47Ai. Unfortunately, that means there's no provision for a hi-res audio digital interface on this player. For more info see SMR's CES 2003 (http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/ces2003/home_theater/page_01.shtml) report.

Best,
Sanjay

[jmcomp124]

Is there any predicted trade-in option to trade in and MC-1 for an MC-8 ?
Does the MC-8 support analog inputs for DVD-A ?
-Jai

[sdurani]

Jai,

The info you're requesting is on page two (http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/ces2003/home_theater/page_02.shtml) of the link I posted above.

Sanjay

[Will]

Now that CES is over, has any mass-market manufacturer besides Pioneer announced a DVD-A player or receiver that uses the new secure firewire standard interface that so far, only Pioneer uses?

The only thing I've heard is plans of upgrades like Lexicon I think announced something like that with their RT-10 dvd player which is based of the 47ai and Anthem is said to be planning something along with B & K I think though nothing official from any of these comapnies.

the Lexicon RT-10 is based on the 47A, not the 47Ai. Unfortunately, that means there's no provision for a hi-res audio digital interface

Since this is supposed to be the new standard secure digital interface from DVD-A players to receivers, why haven't we heard any product announcements from Sony, Denon, Yamaha and the other mass-market manufacturers of DVD-A players and receivers?

Thanks!

Will

[DanielSmi]

I don't know!!!!

Daniel Smith

[jmr21]

Apologies in advance to the heavy-hitters that have contributed to this very interesting thread. This is probably a dumb question, but I've wanted to know the answer for some time.

Why is the current, universally-used digital interconnection scheme for transmitting DD/DTS audio from, say a DVD player to a receiver, not acceptable for SACD and DVD-A? Why do we need another digital interconnection scheme?

[Utopia]

Excellent question. I am not sure of the answer but will venture two guesses.

1. Copy protection?

2. Bandwidth?

[DigitalGriffin]

The data rate limitation on optical/coax is one of the reasons why it can't be used for digital transfer of SACD/DVD-A.

The maximum for optical cable is 2 channel 96kHz/24Bit. Coax will do 2-channel 192kHz/24Bit.

Both of these are true, providing the stream is not copy protected! Otherwise they will down convert to 48KHz/24Bit.

Copywrite issues, and paranoid content providers is another reason why you won't see DVD-A/SACD work over TOSLINK/Coax.

Personally, I predict you'll see 1394 products this coming September from Denon, and possibly Yamaha. That seems to be another popular time to role out new products.

Don

[Craig F]

That isn't correct. I can input 96kHz PCM and process it with DPLII just fine. Your Lexicon utilizes four DSPs to accomplish surround processing on 96KHz material. Lexicon has the expertise to write their own code. Most receivers have only one, maybe two DSPs.

[DanielSmi]

Will OH MY GOD YOUR NOT GOING TO BELIEVE IT BUT I HEARD OF ANOTHER PRODUCT FROM A DIFFERENT COMPANY THAT HAS BEEN OUT AND WILL COMUNICATE WITH THE 49TXi. Its from Mitsubishi someone named KippJones (I believe he's also a member of this forum) from the 49TXi forum mentioned that he got his promis module to work. I then went to the Mits website and did a search for promise module and found this press realeaseMitsubishi Digital Electronics Adopts DTCP (5C) Copy Protection System for IEEE 1394-Equipped Devices (http://www.mitsubishielectric.com/news/2001/010501.htm). This is from Jan 2001. I can't tell what the promis module is my guess is some sort of cable box or something but see I'll if I can get Kipp to post here.

Daniel Smith

[sdurani]

Daniel, I can't tell what the promis module is my guess is some sort of cable box or somethingFrom the link you posted:

"The company previously announced the Mitsubishi Promise Module, a tuner-decoder upgrade module for its HD-Upgradeable Televisions, which included IEEE 1394 and 5C."

Best,
Sanjay

[Kipp Jones]

O.K., I am here and yes I connected my Mits Promise Module to my 49TXi and they recognized each other no problem. The TXi was even listed as an audio device in the Mits NetCommand. I have not had much time to play around with them yet.

[sfogg]

"Your Lexicon utilizes four DSPs to accomplish surround processing on 96KHz material. Lexicon has the expertise to write their own code. Most receivers have only one, maybe two DSPs."

Actually it has five, four SHARCs and a Crystal. However the DPLII decoding at 96kHz is done in a single chip, the Crystal decoder which is very common in receivers.

Shawn

[DanielSmi]

bump, in case you didn't see this will.

Daniel Smith

[nw_avphile]

I asked everyone I could at CES last month about this issue and was amazed that Pioneer is WAY ahead of the world. Even companies like B&K who've had 1394 connectors on their pre-pros for a while confessed they likely wouldn't support firewire in the next year. It seems the jacks aren't hooked up to anything and the entire CPU and motherboard need to be replaced to support firewire in a B&K RefXX!

Theta said they're ready as soon as the "standard is clear". Lexicon said they're not in any hurry but watching the issue and should be able to do a modular upgrade. Rotel didn't know. Parasound has blank expansion ports but said they're at least a year out and going to release their own player. Didn't get to talk to Anthem. Marantz had no idea--despite the fact they announced a player with firewire. They said "it's up to Japan". Yamaha said the same thing. HK didn't have a clue. Denon said they're sticking with their proprietary link.

Basically, the smaller companies argue they don't have the R&D to engineer a firewire solution without knowing for sure that's the final standard. Most of the bigger companies don't see it as a big competitive advantage. A few have managed to band aid bass management onto their multichannel analog inputs and consider that good enough. It's sad.

Someone should give Pioneer an award for having the guts to step into very muddy waters to try and lead the rest of the industry with an open standard. Denon, on the other hand, is foolish for sticking with their half baked proprietary solution. If they indeed stick with it, it's going to seriously hurt them.

I will say one thing: It's great to talk to companies like B&K and Lexicon at CES as you can actually talk to the people that help design the stuff. Both companies sent actual engineers to the show. While I'm sure the sales and marketing types would rather keep the engineers locked up somewhere some of us appreciate them being there.

[williak]

Great post, nw.

I was terribly disappointed in the major players' non-support of the 1394 iLink interface for hirez audio. The current logjam on DVD-Audio and SACD will NEVER be broken the way things are going. Multiple players, switchboxes, external bass managers and a huge tangle of interconnects is a guaranteed recipe for disaster.

Agree 100% on Pioneer living up to their name with their implementation of the 1394 iLink. Absolutely incredible that they appear to have nailed the damn thing right out the gate. Full interop, standard compliance, even a jitter control mechanism - WOW!

I'm especially disgusted with Denon, considering their heft in the marketplace. That they are deliberately choosing to prop up their crippled Denon Link makes no sense at all. I, for one, won't be dropping $4 or $5k on the Denon "solution" to digital hirez!

I predict we're a good year, year and a half away from resolution to the interface problem. Looks like the video guys might get their act together before the audio guys do. Whoda thunk it?

Austin

Originally posted by nw_avphile
I asked everyone I could at CES last month about this issue and was amazed that Pioneer is WAY ahead of the world. Even companies like B&K who've had 1394 connectors on their pre-pros for a while confessed they likely wouldn't support firewire in the next year. It seems the jacks aren't hooked up to anything and the entire CPU and motherboard need to be replaced to support firewire in a B&K RefXX!

Theta said they're ready as soon as the "standard is clear". Lexicon said they're not in any hurry but watching the issue and should be able to do a modular upgrade. Rotel didn't know. Parasound has blank expansion ports but said they're at least a year out and going to release their own player. Didn't get to talk to Anthem. Marantz had no idea--despite the fact they announced a player with firewire. They said "it's up to Japan". Yamaha said the same thing. HK didn't have a clue. Denon said they're sticking with their proprietary link.

Basically, the smaller companies argue they don't have the R&D to engineer a firewire solution without knowing for sure that's the final standard. Most of the bigger companies don't see it as a big competitive advantage. A few have managed to band aid bass management onto their multichannel analog inputs and consider that good enough. It's sad.

Someone should give Pioneer an award for having the guts to step into very muddy waters to try and lead the rest of the industry with an open standard. Denon, on the other hand, is foolish for sticking with their half baked proprietary solution. If they indeed stick with it, it's going to seriously hurt them.

I will say one thing: It's great to talk to companies like B&K and Lexicon at CES as you can actually talk to the people that help design the stuff. Both companies sent actual engineers to the show. While I'm sure the sales and marketing types would rather keep the engineers locked up somewhere some of us appreciate them being there.

[Will]

I connected my Mits Promise Module to my 49TXi and they recognized each other no problem. The TXi was even listed as an audio device in the Mits NetCommand. I have not had much time to play around with them yet.

Can the Mits Promise Unit decode DVD-A or SACD digital signals from the Pioneer player, or are we still where we were before, where Pioneer and only Pioneer supports the digital audio standard and can decode it into it's multiple (5.1) audio channels?

[sdurani]

Will, Can the Mits Promise Unit decode DVD-A or SACD digital signals from the Pioneer player...The Promise Unit is a HDTV tuner-decoder box that attaches to the back of Mitsubishi RPTVs. I seriously doubt that it will decode (let alone have anything to do with) DVD-A and SACD.

Best,
Sanjay

[nw_avphile]

Originally posted by DanielSmi
Ok now I have a question for you Dr.
There is a debate going on as to whether the 49txi/47ai combo converts DSD to PCM before sending it through the i.Link connection. Pioneer claimed at CEDIA that the combo kept the signal in the DSD format the whole time.
Daniel Smith
It's my understanding the DSD stream is sent over the 1394 link in native format and the 49TXi converts it to PCM so its DACs can handle it. So if Pioneer said it is sent to the 49TXi in DSD, that's accurate, but the 49TXi doesn't keep it in DSD all the way to analog--otherwise it couldn't perform bass management, etc.

For those who are critical of this implementation, I can only say it's the BEST implementation of SACD we've seen yet. All SACD players that I know of lack at least proper bass management and/or speaker distance correction. These are important issues the 49TXi handles nicely with SACD digital signals.

To expect Pioneer (or any other manufacture at these price points) to build their DSP and DACs around both PCM and DSD is a lot to ask. We should blame the RIAA/labels/music industry for allowing two standards in the first place. There never was a VCR with a single transport that could play both VHS and Beta.

If you want high-end purist multichannel SACD, you need 5 full range speakers placed equidistant from the listening position and use the analog outputs from a high Sony SACD player.

[DanielSmi]

I also heard it said that Meridian will include support for i.Link and HDMI probably with one of their many upgrades, I would definitely expect them to since they stay on top of the pack. If they did this it would put pressure on the other high end companies to come out with an upgrade and then hopefully the other lower end companies will follow suit.

Daniel Smith

[Will]

The Promise Unit is a HDTV tuner-decoder box that attaches to the back of Mitsubishi RPTVs. I seriously doubt that it will decode (let alone have anything to do with) DVD-A and SACD.

Thanks Sanjay!

[nw_avphile]

bump...

To add to this thread... what do folks think the odds of HDMI eventually winning out over firewire for digital audio? A few high-end manufactures (such as Tag and Meridian) have already said that's how they want to do it. While others already have firewire (Pioneer) or are leaning towards it(B&K, Parasound, Marantz, Sony, etc.) .

I guess I'd hope it will end up like Coax vs Toslink for S/PDIF with many products having connections for both firewire and DVI/HDMI? These interfaces are not cheap, however, and both require considerable firmware as well. So including both of them would be relatively expensive.

I think at first, we'll see DVI video switching on receivers. With any luck, these ports will (eventually?) pass HDMI signals so they would be compatible with HDMI video devices. They would be useless, however, as HDMI inputs for audio signals.

[williak]

Keep video and audio separate.

Forcing both into a common transport, protocol and decoding scheme will certainly devolve into a horrible mess.

The interests of the parties are not common so each would attempt to pull the "standard" its way at the expense of the other. The inevitable conflicts between the two would be extremely difficult to resolve in any reasonable time frame. Even when a "solution" is found, it will certainly be of the "committee" type - a lowest common denominator proposition pleasing no-one and compromised both politically and technically.

To keep technological innovation alive and well, let the audio boys do their thing on their wire and the video folk run their signals on their own separate wire. This arrangement will provide the most freedom for each to improve their products without impinging on the other's turf. Best for them - best for us.

Two wires in the future instead of nine now looks just fine to me.

My take.

Austin

Originally posted by nw_avphile
To add to this thread... what do folks think the odds of HDMI eventually winning out over firewire for digital audio? A few high-end manufactures (such as Tag and Meridian) have already said that's how they want to do it. While others already have firewire (Pioneer) or are leaning towards it(B&K, Parasound, Marantz, Sony, etc.) .

I guess I'd hope it will end up like Coax vs Toslink for S/PDIF with many products having connections for both firewire and DVI/HDMI? These interfaces are not cheap, however, and both require considerable firmware as well. So including both of them would be relatively expensive.

I think at first, we'll see DVI video switching on receivers. With any luck, these ports will (eventually?) pass HDMI signals so they would be compatible with HDMI video devices. They would be useless, however, as HDMI inputs for audio signals.

[dr1394]

I've been reading the HDMI specification, and although
I won't say that it can't support SACD, I will say that
HDMI is very "unfriendly" to SACD (now you know why
Meridian likes it).

Also, there appears to be no scheme to do rate control for
jitterless DAC clocking.

Finally, the first generation of HDMI chips from Silicon
Image do not support hi-rez multi-channel audio of any kind.
See:

http://www.siimage.com/documents/SiI-PB-9190.pdf

For multi-channel DVD-A and SACD, 1394 is way ahead
of the game versus HDMI.

Ron

[DanielSmi]

Ron,

I noticed in that PDF that there's not mention of DVD-A or SACD compatability. It says that HDCP can transfer all formats that S/P-DIF can which is either of the two, plus it says it's capable of transferring 2ch PCM not multi-channel and only as high as 48kHz. Is this some cheap HDMI chip or is that all that HDMI can do right now? If HDMI isn't 5c approved then aren't they going to have to come out with an updated version of HDMI to support these formats?

Daniel Smith

[dr1394]

See this thread on AudioAsylum for some interesting
discourse on the topic of 1394 audio:

http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/digital/messages/61527.html

Ron

[dr1394]

Is this some cheap HDMI chip or is that all that
HDMI can do right now?
Daniel,

Sorry for the late response. The Silicon Image chip is
a first generation device. For more info, see this post
by Ron Ih from Silicon Image:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=1948692#post1948692

Ron

[Will]

Very interesting!

Has any mass-market manufacturer besides Pioneer announced a DVD-A player or receiver that uses the new secure firewire standard interface that so far, apparently only Pioneer uses?

Thanks!

Will

[dr1394]

Looks like Sony is on-board with 1394 audio with their
SCD-XA9000ES player and TA-DA9000ES amplifier. See:

http://www.audiophile.no/pressemeldinger/ny_es.html

Ron

[Will]

This is good news, if true, but does Sony say they are on-board in an English announcement? That announcement is in another language and the subtleties are vague to me since unfortunately I don't speak the language of the announcement. But this would be indeed good news, if the Sony can interoperate with the Pioneer Elite digital interface, in all levels.

Will

[sdurani]

Will, That announcement is in another language and the subtleties are vague to me since unfortunately I don't speak the language of the announcement.There's a translation (http://forums.smr-forums.com:8080/read?11285,5) of the announcemnet at SMR Forums (if you don't want to register, you can enter as a guest to read messages).

Best,
Sanjay

[Will]

Thanks for the translation. After reading the translation, I didn't find out if Sony's digital interface works for DVD-Audio, or if it's a SACD only solution. Also, I couldn't tell if it is designed to interoperate only with other Sony products or if was designed to interoperate with products from other vendors as well. Thanks again!

Will

[sdurani]

Will,

I don't know if this will help any more than the translation did, but you can read an English version (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=16650451) of the Sony announcement at the High Fidelity Review website.

Sanjay

[DanielSmi]

High Fidelity Review says

Following the lead of Pioneer and Denon, the new digital link will allow the transmission of ‘raw’ DSD data from Sony player to receiver, but unlike the solutions from the aforementioned companies, is devalued somewhat by its incompatibility with high-resolution PCM, from DVD-Audio discs for example.

First off Denon doesn't transfer SACD and it doesn't even use i.Link so that doesn't make sense but the real problem is that Sony refuses to support DVD-A and I think they are doing a real diservice to their customer and hopefully will cost them a bunch of money But then they want SACD to succeed DVD-A to fail but I still think that was a bad move and was motivated by trying to make money than trying to please the customer. These products will be available in October and August of 2003 in Europe.

Daniel Smith

[Will]

The SCD-XA9000ES SACD/DVD player and the TA-DA9000ES are expected in Europe next October according to Hi Fi Review.

[mdryja]

My prediction is that DVD-audio and SACD (if it hasn't already) are going to fail. The reason why is that for Joe Consumer, the quality increase is just not that perceptible on low/mid-fi equipment that you can buy at Best Buy. Nowhere near the Cd versus tape cassette transition that occurred twenty years ago, for instance.

[Adam_H]

mdryja, that doesnt necissarily mean its going to fail, just that it could remain a niche market. I certainly don't see DVD-A and SACD taking over the market from CDs, but I think there is room for a higher fidelity product.

I think the more relavent question is whether both DVD-A and SACD can exist together, or if one will have to fail.

[Kipp Jones]

Originally posted by mdryja
My prediction is that DVD-audio and SACD (if it hasn't already) are going to fail. The reason why is that for Joe Consumer, the quality increase is just not that perceptible on low/mid-fi equipment that you can buy at Best Buy. Nowhere near the Cd versus tape cassette transition that occurred twenty years ago, for instance.

I respectfully disagree.:)

[petermwilson]

Hi,
I'm a bit mixed up also but quite frankly if i have to use 6 cables instead of 1 to hookup an sacd player and i have the available inputs i'm not liable to agonize over the single cable solution.

I have an upgraded Denon 5800 which has the d-link option for dvd-a if i'm stupid enough to buy the Denon9000 which is a $5000.00cdn dvd player with the chroma bug.
Part of the upgrade was ( i think) an unactivated firewire type port for future upgrades.

I already can use my tosh sd5109 or panny rp82 with the analogue outs for dvd-a. when these new (probably combi) players with firewire come out, there will probably be some great deals on good quality sacd players still using analogue connections which unless someone can point out a glaring ommission on my part will probably be the direction i will take.

I guess the fact that i have 2 sets of analogue ins on the 5800 it makes this option more convenient for me than if i had to switch them to go between sacd and dvd-a

peter m.

[Will]

A digital interface lets people do time alignment and bass management in the receiver, in the digital domain, just like you probably do today, in your receiver for DVDs and CDs. And as you know, a digital cable per player is neater than six analog cables per player.

You're correct however that in order to use the new digital interfaces when they do come out, you'll have to buy a new player and also, get a new receiver. But it may be a long wait before "standard" digital interfaces become a standard feature in all receivers and players. So enjoy what you have. There's no reason to rush to replace your Denon 5800 with a "standard" DVD-Audio digital interface receiver, just yet. :)

Best,

Will

[mfombellida]

Will,

"I didn't find out if Sony's digital interface works for DVD-Audio"

Note that this player SCD-XA9000ES is SACD and CD only, no DVD (not even DVD-V).
Here is the Sony announcement (in English):
http://www.sony-europe.com/presscenter/PressShow.x?articleid=897

Anyway, that's good to see Sony taking the plunge with i-Link. I hope it means that other will follow the path initiated by Pioneer this time with universal players.

Michel

[petermwilson]

Hi,
I don't know what Denon thinks is coming down the line bit it seems that in the recent upgrade that was done to the reciever there is an unactivated future capacity for 6 or maybee 8 connections to a dvd-a or sacd player that will be digital and not analalogue. in otherwords same type of connections as we have to-day but each will be digital.

It was the Denon rep here in Toronto that did the upgrade and setup my reciever in my home, so the info i'm getting is first hand, i just don't understand what the concept might be.

peter m.

[Will]

There are proprietary digital DVD-Audio interfaces in the market already that don't interopate with other brands, such as Meridian's. Meridian doesn't use a standard interface. Sony needs more than the i-Link cable to make it a standard that can interoperate with other brands. The fact that Sony's i-Link player which is due in October 2003 won't support DVD-Audio, shows Sony isn't afraid to go its own way. :)

I guess it remains to be seen if Sony will support a standard 1394 audio specification (Audio and Music Data Transmission Protocol version 2.1 is dated May 24, 2002. The 5C/DTCP compliance rules for 1394 audio was completed June 10, 2002) for that subpart that applies only to SACD (since we know Sony won't be supporting DVD-Audio), as opposed to some proprietary interface that happens to use an i-link cable.

[mfombellida]

"it remains to be seen if Sony will support a standard 1394 audio specification"

Well we'll know for sure the day when we'll see it but as Sony agreed on i-Link (the standard one) as a mean to transport SACD (as done by for example by Pioneer), I doubt that they would use anything else for themselves, especially calling it i-Link as well. IMHO it can only be the "standard" (most likely using the same chip implementation from TI). The TI implementation supports both SACD, DVD-A and PCM. The fact that Sony didn't implement the DVD-A part is as you mentioned political.

[Will]

I hope that the Sony i.Link interoperates with the Pioneer i.Link for SACD but it's hard to be sure at this stage. The word i.LINK isn't sufficient to define the SACD interface. For example, on Sony's newest RPTV there are i.LINK IEEE-1394 digital connections, but those connections probably are not usable for SACD bitstreams. See http://www.twice.com/index.asp?layout=print_page&doc_id=114599&articleID=

[DanielSmi]

Will it's safe to assume that they will work together because

1.) 5C was partially developed by Sony.
2.) i.Link is a trademark of Sony
3.) Sony says that a digital connection must be 5C/DTCP certified to transfer SACD signals which is what their player does over i.Link.

Sony has their fingerprints all over this new digital interface why wouldn't they use the products they helped to create. Doesn't make sense for them not to.

Daniel Smith

[nw_avphile]

It would be WONDERFUL if the Sony 1394 audio interface is compatible with the one Pioneer is using. It wouldn't be the first time, however, for Sony to break ranks and do their own thing (just look at Memory Stick, Digital-8 and the countless other proprietary standards they've come up with). Sony behaves much like the Microsoft of the consumer electronics industry--they believe they're big enough to dictate the standards.

I do agree it's very likely Sony will do SACD over 1394--it's just a matter of exactly HOW they do it.

[petermwilson]

Hi,
Today i just picked up the floor model of the now defunct Sony DVP-NC650V DVD/SACD player.

And since my denon has 2 sets of analogue in's screw them all and there digital interfaces, if i don't have to bite, i'm not going to.
My panny rp82 sounds great for dvd-a.

I posted this once before re Denon's proprietery digital link that works only with the Denon 9000.
It's $5000cdn, only does dvd-a with non encrypted discs and has the chroma bug. Hell send me a dozen!!!

peter m.

[DanielSmi]

I found another company that has three products that support i.Link. The company is dCs a very high end company and they released the dCS Verdi ($10,995) a dual-laser SACD/CD transport with DSD stream output via IEEE 1394 FireWire interface, the dCS Purcell ($7995) which an upsampler to accompany the Verdi while the Purcell can't upsample the DSD stream it can upsample CD data to DSD using the IEEE 1394 equipped Purcell, and finally the dCS Elgar Plus ($14,995) is the IEEE 1394 equipped DAC. Total cost: $33,985. There is a review of these products in the April 2003 Sterophile on pg. 108. So there are now 4 companies that support i.Link.

Daniel Smith

[dr1394]

I'm afraid that the dCS 1394 interface is different.
See this link:

http://www.AudioAsylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/129862.html

Ron

[williak]

The dCS products appear to have a separate connection for a clock signal between the transport and the DAC. If this is the case, we're not looking at "standard" 1394 iLink (A&M protocol) which handles clock synching with a subsidiary protocol. Too bad.

Austin

[DanielSmi]

Sony doesn't make a single DVD-A player because DVD-A is the competitor of SACD which they created, same reason why Meridian doesn't make SACD players because they created MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing) which is what alot of DVD-As use for some sortof compression, and why Lexicon preamps arent' THX ULTRA2 certified because the ULTRA2 processing is a competitor to Lexicon's Logic7. Back in the cut when there was the VHS vs. Beta war (I belive Sony created Beta) Sony didn't make any VHS players for a few years becuase they wanted their medium to suceed same thing they're doing for SACD.

Daniel Smith

[DanielSmi]

Well that's too bad that's it's not compatible right now but in the article they state that their products are fully upgradeable so they could and should and probably will provide an upgrade for their products.

Daniel Smith

[sfogg]

Daniel,

"and why Lexicon preamps arent' THX ULTRA2 certified because the ULTRA2 processing is a competitor to Lexicon's Logic7."

Lexicon processors were the first digital processors to have THX post processing, and the first to have THX Surround EX processing. As far as THX Ultra2 the MC-8 is THX Ultra2 certified.

Shawn

[DanielSmi]

Shawn can you tell if it includes the THX ULTRA2 processing I went to their website looked around their and on their downloadable manual and could find no mention of the THX ULTRA2 processing it's certified but does it have the processing which is what is L7 competiitor not the certification.

Daniel Smith

[sfogg]

Daniel,

THX Ultra2 processing is part of THX Ultra2 certification on a surround sound processor.

http://www.lexicon.com/mc8/details.asp

It is also mentioned here:

http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/ces2003/home_theater/page_01.shtml

If Lexicon played those sorts of games it wouldn't have DPLII or DTS NEO:6... but it has both of them too.

Shawn

[DanielSmi]

Thanks Shawn I was wrong I found it at the SMR site.

Daniel Smith

[Will]

In terms of products with a standard 1394 audio interface spec (Audio and Music Data Transmission Protocol version 2.1 or later, and the 5C/DTCP compliance rules for 1394 audio), I think so far, just one mass-market company supports it today, namely Pioneer. Pioneer has supported this "standard" with real products in the market, since last year, so why isn't anybody else joining them quickly? Maybe Sony will support it but not for five more months or so, but Sony won't support it for DVD-A (just SACD). Neither Meridian and Denon as I understand it, use the standard 1394 audio digital interface but instead use "proprietary" digital interfaces. The dCs digital interface doesn't use the standard either.

Will

[DanielSmi]

Will, I suspect that the next Elite line will all have i.Link capability and at that point they will be an easy winner over the competition like the Denon 3803, 4803, H/K 525, 7200, etc so the other companies must conform especially after Sony releases their i.Link player which I believe will come before the new line of Elites. Also their's a good chance that Sony's next line of ES receivers will have i.Link.

This is just speculation but I see no reason why it wouldn't happen.

Daniel Smith

[mfombellida]

Here is one player that will interoperate with i-Link compliant receivers like the Pioneer:
http://www.msbtech.com/Catalog/pdf/Datasheets/DVD%20datasheet.pdf
I got the confirmation from MSB that their player is compliant with the i-Link standard and will thus interoperate with the Pioneer.

Sony also announced their future SACD player XA-9000ES and receiver that will also communicate via i-Link (to be released in October).

Michel

[dsmith901]

Originally posted by DanielSmi
Sony has their fingerprints all over this new digital interface why wouldn't they use the products they helped to create. Doesn't make sense for them not to.

Daniel Smith

Keep in mind Sony also sells music - they are one of the biggest labels around, and they don't want their stuff copied in high resolution. I am sure they realize that any digital copy protection can be, and will be, defeated.

Dsmith

[Will]

According to the pdf the MSB player lists for $7995 so it's more of an exotic than a mass market player. The only mass market players and receivers I know about with a digital interface is from Pioneer. Sony probably will have one for SACD only (not DVD) in 5 months or so. But where are the other mass market manufacturers? Is anybody else making announcements? Where is Yamaha and Panasonic and Onkyo and the other yadda yadda's? This is supposed to be the "standard" digital interface for DVD Audio and SACD, afterall.

[DanielSmi]

Things normally start at the high end and then trickle down.

Michel, that's a coincedence I was looking at the website last night to see if that player could do i.Link and I couldn't find anything about that. I didn't see the i.Link logo on the front either. How did you confirm that the i.Link outut was 5C/DTCP certified?

Daniel Smith

[DanielSmi]

Things normally start at the high end and then trickle down.

Michel, that's a coincedence I was looking at the website last night to see if that player could do i.Link and I couldn't find anything about that. I didn't see the i.Link logo on the front either. How did you confirm that the i.Link outut was 5C/DTCP certified?

Daniel Smith

[tpigeon2003]

Daniel the good doctor knows all -- dr1394, that is. Do a search under his posts. You will be among the most informed ilink individuals on the face of the earth.

[DanielSmi]

I've spoken with him a few times and he posted many times in this thread (one reason why it's so long). But question isn't about i.Link in general but to the i.Link on the MSB SACD player. If you look at the top of this page I wrote a post about the dCS Verdi a SACD/CD transports that has i.Link but doesn't use the A&M protocol (dr1394 can A&M and 5C/DTCP be used interchangeably(?sp)?) but can still transfer SACD I believe it is the only player in the world that does this because it came out well before the standard was agreed on and it doesn't have any rate control which eliminates jitter which is part of A&M protocol.

All the stuff I know about i.Link and the interface I learned alot of it from dr1394, thanks Ron.

Daniel Smith

[mfombellida]

Daniel,

I sent an email to MSB and they replied:

"Yes, it does conform to the I-link standard, it will work with the pioneer receivers.

Scott Rust
MSB TECHNOLOGY"

The dCS is an implementation of ieee-1394 but it was indeed built before the standard i-Link for audio was approved.

Michel

[Will]

Which Pioneer (Elite) DVD players use the standard digital interface for DVD-Audio and SACD? Also which Pioneer (Elite) receivers use it?

Thanks!

[mfombellida]

Will at the moment VSA-AX10i and VSX49i. Just check on the Pioneer site, they all end up with an "i"... problably more will come later (from Sony as well).

[dr1394]

dr1394 can A&M and 5C/DTCP be used interchangeably?

This is just a guess, but it's quite possible that the dCS
equipment is using an older 1394 Link Layer Controller
that supports 5C/DTCP only with MPEG-2 (188 byte), DV
(480 byte) or DSS (140 byte) packets and not A&M packets
(which can be any multiple of 8 bytes).

So they may be using standard 5C/DTCP, but formatting
the audio samples into 188, 480 or 140 packets with their
own non-A&M scheme.

Also, we know that dCS is using a seperate clock
connection instead of a rate control protocol.

BTW, that's good news on the MSB Technology player.
Although it's price is stratospheric, it still provides
more momentum for 1394 audio.

Ron

[DanielSmi]

Will you know this it just the 47Ai and the 49TXi.

Daniel Smith

[bkzoller]

Originally posted by mfombellida
Will at the moment VSA-AX10i and VSX49i. Just check on the Pioneer site, they all end up with an "i"... problably more will come later (from Sony as well).

What is the chance of being able to send multichannel PCM from a computer to the VSX49i over firewire? I suppose it would just be a matter of software support to bundle the PCM into the correct packet format and to handle retransmission of packets. For some, it would be preferable to use a computer as the DVD Audio/DVD Video player rather than using a standalone player.

Brian

[mozumder]

A key element for widespread support of 1394 audio is going to be the video element as well. I don't think the mass market is going to look at 1394 audio as having a major advantage if it doesn't also include the video component. They would probably rather see 1 wire between components.

I wonder if the DVD-Forum has approved 1394 as a transmission standard?

[mozumder]

A key element for widespread support of 1394 audio is going to be the video element as well. I don't think the mass market is going to look at 1394 audio as having a major advantage if it doesn't also include the video component. They would probably rather see 1 wire between components.

I wonder if the DVD-Forum has approved 1394 as a transmission standard for video?

[bkzoller]

The industry seems to be leaning toward using HDMI, which is basically DVI-HDCP plus multichannel digital audio on a single cable. IEEE 1394 seems to be falling out of favor for video transmission. For example, DirecTV has a policy that all new HDTV receivers for their system will have DVI-HDCP, and none of the new ones have IEEE 1394. I'm not aware of a decision from the DVD Forum on the A/V interface issue. Isn't there another proposed standard for a display interface on digital cable services?

In terms of a computer interface, HDMI could be made to work. I think the connector will be different from DVI, but an adapter would be possible. Future receivers and surround processors would probably add HDMI switching circuits if that becomes the standard.

The real question is about software rather than hardware. Regardless of what type of wire carries the signal, I'm wondering whether it would be possible to send full resolution 5.1 DVD Audio over that wire from a computer DVD player to a receiver or surround processor. Maybe it is too soon to tell.

Brian

[Will]

I wonder if the DVD-Forum has approved 1394 as a transmission standard for video?

The DVD Forum has approved 1394 as a digital transmission standard for DVD-Audio.

Sorry for not being able to answer your question about video transmission.

[sdurani]

Will, All DVD-players output video digitally...From what connection on the back panel?

Sanjay

[Will]

I corrected my mistake from the last post.

[dr1394]

Here's the DVD Forum recommendation for DVD video and audio
over 1394:

http://www.dvdforum.com/images/Guideline1394V10R0_20020911.pdf

The big roadblock is the necessity of re-encoding the
content video and the OSD (On Screen Display, i.e
menus) composite so that the 1394 display can show the
user interface menus. See figure 3.5-1 in the document
for a block diagram that includes the "Video Re-Encoder".

To make this MPEG-2 encoder cheaper, the recommendation
allows the Transport Stream to be sent on 1394 at up
to 36.096 Mbps. In other words, the MPEG-2 encoder can
be a high bitrate I-frame only chip (possibly implemented
in an FPGA).

Given that there's not many 1394 only displays, nobody
has jumped to make a player.

Ron

[Will]

Which Pioneer Elite DVD players use the standard digital interface for DVD-Audio and SACD? Also which Pioneer Elite receivers use it?

just the 47Ai and the 49TXi.


Thanks for the update. I think those "i" models have been sold since about October 2002. Wondered if any newer 1394 models were out in the US yet. But apparently not. I'm sure they'll have new stuff for sale before long. That's the nature of the biz. :)

I understand Pioneer sells different models in Europe, but I'm mostly interested in models intended for sale in the US. Thanks!

[catapult]

Some of the specs of the MSB player sound suspiciously like the Pioneer leading me to guess they're using the "guts" of the Pio. Before I spent that kind of money, I'd want some assurance that it didn't carry over any of the Pioneer's known problems (chroma bug, etc.)

[DanielSmi]

Apparently this was announced a few months ago (I just read about it today) and has already been released in Japan but no news when and if it will be released stateside.

From Sony a new HD-DVD player/recorder that's right I said HD-DVD player/RECORDER

check it out here (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7786) and here (http://www.avland.co.uk/sony/bdzs77/index.htm)

1st pic

http://www.avland.co.uk/sony/bdzs77/bdzs77panellrg.jpg

2nd pic

http://www.avland.co.uk/sony/bdzs77/rearlrg.jpg

If you notice all the way to the left in the first pic is a firewire DV input so you can connect your DV camera and it can record from there. Then look at the second pic all the way to the right you see two i.Link S200 ports so that you can daisy chain components. The website says so you can connect 2 players but it might be able to connect with the TXi. I believe the S200 uses different protocol than the DV input and you can't connect a camcorder to the bock at the s200 ports. The site says details are tenative and that this is Japan launch only but I'd expect a similiar product to be announced for the good ole' US of A.

Pioneer uses S400 ports and are faster than S200 but Pioneer states in thier manuals that it will accept anything from S100 to S400. If someone in Japan has the Pioneer AX10i and this HD-DVD thing they'd be able to check if they work together. There's no info as to whether or not this player does SACD or DVD-A but it does play regular DVD's and CD's.

Dr1394 have you heard anything about this products and it's capabilities, anyone heard anything about it. All I know is that it was released almost a month ago (April 10) in Japan.

This link (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7786) has a small article about Blu-Ray and who's behind it.

This is some interesting stuff eh Will.

Daniel Smith

[DanielSmi]

I can't confirm if this is true or not but I believe it's also a satellite receiver. List is $4000 not a bad price for 1st generation HD-DVD reocrder.

Daniel Smith

[dr1394]

IIRC Sony supports just SACD not DVD-A.
Although the new Sony player will not support DVD-A,
it's quite possible that the new Sony 1394 receiver
will accept DVD-A over 1394 from a Pioneer player.

Ron

[Will]

it's quite possible that the new Sony 1394 receiver
will accept DVD-A over 1394 from a Pioneer player.


Really?

[petiteface]

This is an unrelated question, but is DVD-A or SACD worth it? Are they a big improvement over the normal CD quality? What can one expect over a multichannel stereo or DPL-II music from a regular CD.

Does the format itself add to the quality or do companies that release on this format ensure that they do a great job on the quality.

Thanks for any information.

[DanielSmi]

Originally posted by Will
Bumping to ask if any brand is selling a DVD player or a receiver in the USA that supports the standard digital interface, besides Pioneer. Pioneer has been selling a player and receiver that supports the standard, in the USA since about October 2002.

The Sony's are due in the USA in fall 2003, about a year after Pioneer started selling theirs. IIRC Sony supports just SACD not DVD-A.

Is there any other news on products that support the standard digital interface for DVD-A and SACD?

Sony announced the US version of the 9000es and the dvd player and there was no mention of an i.Link connection in the press release for the US version. I looked a a big HQ picture of the US STR-9000es and the i.Link logo wasn't on the front of the receiver like it is on the overseas version. I don't know whether or not the US has i.Link which is a disappointment and I can't understand why they'd do this.

Daniel Smith

[DanielSmi]

I thought I remembered reading the specs of the overseas receiver and it had lowly DACs not high enough to support at least 24/192 I can't remember whether it did 24/96 but this was done intentionally as to make it hard to support DVD-A but I'll check on that to make sure.

Daniel Smith

[DanielSmi]

The XA9000ES is also unique in that it will be the first Sony Multichannel SACD player to use the SACD industry standard firewire connection as well as incorporate the new "5C" Digital Content Protection System.
The firewire interface on the XA9000ES can be used to connect the player to the new Sony STR-DA9000ES ES Series Receiver.

Thankfully according to http://www.highfidelityreviews.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=18543877 I was wrong. The new dvd players announced by Sony won't have i.Link but their dedicated SACD player will. But I still wonder why there was no mention of i.Link in the press release here (http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/3739).
Here's the PR for the SACD player with pics here (http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/3737).
Here's the PR for the new DVD players with pics here (http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/3730).

And I'll close with this interesting tidbit from the announcement of the Sony SACD player at www.highfidelityreviews.com

Sony officials noted that the firewire interface on the XA9000ES can be used to connect the player to external DSD DACs that use firewire connections. The interface was co-developed with recording studio and high end audio firm dCS and is said to enable the XA9000ES to be used with dCS' Elgar Plus Stereo DSD DAC. According to Sony, other DSD DAC makers have talked to them about adding a firewire interface to their products so that they can be linked to the XA9000ES player. Sony has no plans to make an external DSD DAC to connect to the XA9000ES "at this time" according to company officials at HE 2003.

Daniel Smith

[DanielSmi]

STR-DA9000ES is the receiver that the XA9000ES will connect to and is the US version of TA-DA9000ES mentioned on page 7 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201258&perpage=20&pagenumber=7) of this thread which has an i.Link connection hence why it's in this thread.

Daniel Smith

[DanielSmi]

I noticed if you look at the HQ pic of the STR-9000ES you can see like with most receivers there is a light on the front panel for which input is being used and there is an i.Link input light.

Daniel Smith

[Will]

The SCD-XA9000ES is Sony's SACD Player With Digital Firewire Connection according to http://www.highfidelityreviews.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=18543877

[DanielSmi]

I know that and the STR-DA9000ES is the receiver it connects to using i.Link you can see these two being used at the bottom of the link you posted. XA9000ES is SACD source player DA9000ES is receiver.

Daniel Smith

[Will]

Thanks Daniel!

Has Sony announced any other, less expensive DVD player with SACD i.Link, besides the SCD-XA9000ES?

Will

[DanielSmi]

Nope that's why I'm starting to get the idea that i.Link is expensive to implement. The 47ai ($1200) is by far the cheapest the second cheapest is the $3000 SACD player then the 49TXi ($4500) and the new STR-DA9000ES ($4500). I know Dr. 1394 will have some insight into the cost of one and maybe even a price for R&D. Ron do you now how much it costs to develop the chip your working on for LSi Logic and how much parts are for each chip?

Will by the way the SCD-XA9000ES is an audio only player with no DVD capabilities like a standalone CD player.

Daniel Smith

[Will]

Maybe it's a misprint, and maybe it used to cost more but according to audioreview.com at http://audioreview.com/DVD,Players/Pioneer,DV-47Ai/PRD_140119_1587crx.aspx the current MSRP for Pioneer's i.Link DVD player DV-47Ai is under $700.

[DanielSmi]

No that's wrong you might be able to buy it online for $700 but MSRP is $1200 see here (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/CDA/HomeProducts/HomeProductDetails/0,1422,92380,00.html).

Daniel Smith

[Will]

Thanks Daniel.

When are the new Pioneer players and receivers (with more i.link features) expected?

Will

[DanielSmi]

Probably as soon as CEDIA in September. I'd expect at least 2new models both with i.Link and replacements for the 49,47, 45, and maybe 43TX to be i.Link capable. This is what will push the other companies towards i.Link especially after the sucess of the 45TX if the 55TXi is as popular it won't be long before i.Link starts popping up. I just wish Sony would've implemented it into to their lower model ES receivers.

Daniel Smith

[iansilv]

So we as consumers are looking at a year before something standard arrives in the mainstream for SACD and DVD-Audio to transport the signal digitally to the reciever at a reasonable price? That is so ridiculous. I think that these record companies need to realize that the only people who would copy their high-resolution audio discs are people who have more time to spend figuring out how to do it and no money to buy these recordings anyway. Well, the first company to do it at a resonable price- standard digital conenction to reciever for SACD has my money- and the record companies will have my money as well, as I will then start buying High resolution audio recordings.

-Or maybe I'll breakdown with Dark Side of the Moon out!

[DanielSmi]

Will, I was right Pioneer just announced the new 55TXi which will have an i.Link interface and will retail for $1,700 and it will available in July.

Daniel Smith

[Will]

the 49TXi ($4500) and the new STR-DA9000ES ($4500)


Pioneer just announced the new 55TXi which will have an i.Link interface and will retail for $1,700 and it will available in July.

A year-to-year MSRP price drop of something like 65% for the cheapest iLink receiver is definitely moving in the right direction.

[adamf]

With the dropping price of the DV-47Ai, did they announce (or hint at) another multi-format player yet?

Thanks.

[DanielSmi]

Adam here's what a Pioneer dealer said in another post
"As a sales in an audio/video store which carry Pioneer Elite. We don't have any updates on the replacement of VSX-49TXi. But as for other models they are coming out in September.
VSX-43TX will be called VSX-53TX
VSX-45TX will be called VSX-55TXi very like the VSX-49TXi

There will be many other replacements in DVDs and new coming DVD recorders.

September will be a very exciting month for PIoneer Elite products."

I'd expect most of the dvd players to be i.Link.

Daniel Smith

[DaveFi]

There problem here is that the low-end needs the "one wire" connector more than the higher end, as the power-users already are onboard with SACD and DVD-A.

I'm one on the low-end who decided to wait-it-out. I'll buy my Pioneer 912 next week, and then upgrade again whenever its successor w/1 wire is available. Next year's model or the year after?

[iansilv]

I had an interesting conversation today with a man in a high-end audio store in Tustin CA who told me that a review that he had read had said that the 6 line analog is better than the single cable standard Krell was pushing,a nd that dvd audio and sacd are both high-density analogue formats much like laserdisc. Any truth to this stuff at all?

[sdurani]

Originally posted by iansilv
...dvd audio and sacd are both high-density analogue formats much like laserdisc. Any truth to this stuff at all?None whatsoever. "High-density analog" indeed; who comes up with this bull?

Best,
Sanjay

[tpigeon2003]

Originally posted by sdurani
None whatsoever. "High-density analog" indeed; who comes up with this bull?

Best,
Sanjay

I don't know but I am eating an UH-DSP-DD (ultra high double secret probation-density digital) peanut butter and jelly sandwitch right now. I will sell it to you for $13,000.

[sdurani]

Originally posted by tpigeon2003
I will sell it to you for $13,000.I'll buy THAT for a dollar! ;)

Sanjay

[DanielSmi]

had an interesting conversation today with a man in a high-end audio store in Tustin CA who told me that a review that he had read had said that the 6 line analog is better than the single cable standard Krell was pushing,a nd that dvd audio and sacd are both high-density analogue formats much like laserdisc. Any truth to this stuff at all?

What was this guy trying to say that DVD-A and SACD was an analog format. I wasn't around for record players but isn't high-density analogue a record term? If so that guy was full of crap but I've heard things said as dumb as that and by people a respected for their audio knowledge. iansilv what a said wasn't intended for you but for the person you talked to I'm not trying to shoot the messenger.

Daniel Smith

[iansilv]

Thank you for the clarification. I knew something was up when he had never heard of avsforum.com !:) Anyway, so how does the digital bitstream work for sacd and dvd audio- is it true that the current connection just cant handle the bandwidth and we will ahve to wait for this new connection that Pioneer and sony are bringing out?

[DanielSmi]

Ian the connection has been out for about and Pioneer was the first to implement it in Oct 02. The main reason we have i.Link is because they wanted a way to transfer DVD-A & SACD digitally that had really good copy protection. There's all sorts of info about i.Link in the first 5 pages of this thread about anything you want to know has been asked and answered by dr 1394.

Daniel Smith

[Will]

I know that there are non-STANDARD approaches from the likes of Meridian to transmit DVD-A digitally. But is i.Link still the only digital STANDARD for DVD-audio and SACD on the drawing board? Or is there a competing digital STANDARD we should expect to see in the coming years?

[petermwilson]

Hi,
My upgraded Denon 5800 has what's called the Denon link whivh performs the same function as the iLink for HIREZ sources. However Denon has only one product a dvd/dvd-a player (Denon 9000) which supprts that input for dvd-.a only.

Peter m.

[Utopia]

Sorry for the redundant thread I will delete mine now.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=284020

Or could a moderator delete mine and merge the two?

Once again sorry for any confusion.

[DanielSmi]

Yes Peter that is a proprietary approach and cannot transmit SACD. Will I heard that NAD was going to make a receiver with i.Link but that's just a rumor.

Daniel Smith

[robertawillisjr]

I am seriously thinking of buying the Bel Canto Uni-player and their 5/6/7 (pick one) analog pre amp. I'll need to actually see the manual and hear the set, but it still makes sense to me. If the player has the formats that are actually backed by product and not vaporware, then that is all I need. My setup is really good but relatively simple.

If someone built a Uni-transport and a prepro with a digital link, I would have to pause and think about it.

[M Code]

The major problem for implementing the 1394 interface lies with its cost, U need to have the circuitry in both the optical player and DSP decoder side. Though its parts cost has already dropped significantly compared to a year ago thanks to the the TI Lynx chipset...

Regarding SACD don't hold your breath for broader market acceptance. Since Sony and Philips are controlling the IP and restricting its availablity only in their silicon IC parts rather than permitting software downloads, this significantly increases the costs for other brands to implement.
But...
I would surmise Sony in their finest wisdom knows what they are doing since they have controlled certain formats which have gone on to become the industry standards such as El Cassete, MD, Beta...... :confused: ;) :D :cool:

[catapult]

Strictly rumor but it's from a fairly reliable source on another forum:

"The 59TXi will be out later this year and it will have HDMI inputs to go with the new 59AVI player for both video and audio. No word on other features as of late."

Lotsa ifs there but, IF the rumor is true and IF they do everything right and IF they fix the bugs in the previous players, we could see a good solution with 1 digital cable carrying video and hi-rez audio to the receiver. Assuming there is more than one HDMI input, you could use a DVI/HDMI adapter for your HDTV box and have an all digital switching solution from your sources to your screen.

[dr1394]

Looks like Denon has embraced 1394 audio. See:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=283241

Ron

[DanielSmi]

Very interesting Ron that looks like a very nice player I might have to pick that one up.

In regards to HDMI I don't see it every carrying SACD because it's not a Sony trademark like i.Link and since Sony is part of the 5C necessary to give HDMI approval it's up to them and they have nothing to gain and everything to lose by giving SACD to HDMI. Same story with the Denon Link you see Denon was forced to incorporate i.Link into this player for SACD Sony will do the same thing with say Tag McLaren which thinks HDMI is the way but not when Sony's got the upper hand. Very smart move by Sony; 2cables aren't that much worse than one and way better than 9 cables (6audio, 3 for component).

What do you guys think do you think Sony will allow SACD over HDMI or force the use of i.Link? Do you think it could backlash on Sony by companies just refusing to incorporate SACD unless over HDMI?

I don't I think that if they did that then no one would buy their product if it doesn't support SACD and the company will be forced to use i.Link and Sony still will have the upper hand.

Daniel Smith

[catapult]

http://www.hdmi.org/

Snippets......

"Who supports HDMI?
The [COLOR=red]HDMI founders[/COLOR] include leading consumer electronics manufacturers Hitachi, Matsushita Electric Industrial (Panasonic), Philips, [COLOR=red]Sony[/COLOR], Thomson (RCA), Toshiba, and Silicon Image. Intel is providing High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) for HDMI. In addition, HDMI has the support of major motion picture producers Fox and Universal, and system operators DirecTV, EchoStar (Dish Network) as well as CableLabs."

"[COLOR=red]Sony[/COLOR] General Manager, of Projection Display Company, Satoshi Ohno stated, 'We are pleased that the HDMI Compliance Test Spec is finalized, and we look forward to sending our HDMI products out for testing and to continuing the momentum behind HDMI.' "

[Will]

Sony trademark i.Link

But Pioneer sold a receiver incorporating the SACD over i.Link interface, almost a year before Sony's first receiver with this interface, I think.

[DanielSmi]

Thank you catapult I stand corrected but I still think they make more if it's over i.Link since it's soley there's.

Will you're correct but i.Link been around much longer than Pioneer's receiver. i.Link is firewire IEEE 1394 whatever you want to call it it's been around since like 1998 and is used on digital cameras, digital camcorders, external hard drives, external cd/ dvd burners, mp3 players, etc.

Daniel Smith

[jhuang]

For all the speculations/hopes that the I.Link as implemented by Pioneer (for SACD and DVD-A) will be universal, the most important point is that Pioneer currently has the technology to do it, and the products (both DVD reader and receiver)! The only thing to do is to purchase their product, and reward the first mover/innovator. I guess now Denon is jumping aboard, and Sony halfway (SACD only but I heard their new players will also stream DVD-A ???). The important business point is that first movers takes all the risk to see if the market is willing to accept the new functionality (esp. if there are costs associated with implementing it) - if Pioneers foray into this is a complete disaster, then rest assured no one else will risk the money!

Pioneer has made, IMHO, two very important and innovative steps, the MCACC and universal players w/ digital interface. From what I've heard, quadraphonic was revolutionary for it's times, and sounded great IF the soundstage was perfectly set up. A lot of manual tweaking and adjusting was necessary to make it work. Many years later, we have 5.1 for audio, but I feel that somewhat like quadraphonic, speaker placment and calibration makes a huge impact on the perceived quality of the 5.1 track. This is why I feel Pioneer is moving in the right direction of providing MCACC to the mass market (granted, it's now only in the Elite lineup, but I have a feeling a few years down the road and it'll be in their whole lineup). Granted, any audiophile can calibrate their system at least as good as MCACC, but the mass market would NEVER waste the time. They want the "wizard" to do everything, AND MCACC will adjust somewhat for speaker placment (TA). That and a simplified firewire connection from player to receiver, anybody can enjoy decent 5.1 music. After hearing Pink Floyd's SACD multichannel, I love it (the clocks in "Time" and the cash register in "Money" were just plain cool). Being a HUGE Hendrix fan, I can only imagine how much fun he would have had with 5.1. No Logic 7 or PLII could EVER come close! Yes, the hi-rez is somewhat subtle, and can be easily missed by your mass market, but there's no way to miss having sound arriving from your side (slight rear)!

Anyways, the whole point, before I digressed, is that no matter how "un-proprietary" Pioneers technology is, it doesn't matter if consumers don't buy it! If Pioneer is able to generate a competitive advantage from having a non-proprietary (by having greater sales or margin), then rest assured others will adopt it as well. Same goes for MCACC (or whatever you want to call it). For those sitting on the fence about buying Pioneer, then the best thing to do is to go ahead w/ Pioneer! If they create a large base of I.Link users (in receivers/players/...etc), then others will follow suit. The question is will Pioneer show enough sales/profit to attract the attention of ther manufactures?

[Will]

think they [Sony] make more if it's over i.Link since it's soley there's.

i.Link is firewire IEEE 1394

In this 1394 Trade Association link (http://www.1394ta.org/Press/2002Press/may/5.29.a.htm) from May 29, 2002: it looks like firewire was licensed by Apple not Sony, for a fee. Then in May 2002, Apple granted the 1394 Trade Association a no-fee license.

What's the license fee structure these days for 1394?

[dr1394]

Here's the patent holders that split up the 25 cents per
1394 device:

Apple Computer, Inc.
Canon Inc.
Hitachi, Ltd.
Koninklijke Philips Electronics, N.V.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (Panasonic)
Sony Corporation
STMicroelectronics N.V.
Toshiba Corporation

For more information, see:

http://www.1394la.com/

Ron

[thager]

This is somewhat off-topic, not being related directly to DVD-A or SACD playback, but I think many people will want to use the firewire input on their A/V receivers for other purposes besides DVD-A and SACD. The single-cable-connection aspect is quite appealing for its convenience.

Hi-def D-VHS players with 1394 from JVC and Mitsubishi currently exist on the market. BluRay players are coming, as are cable and satellite set-top boxes.

Unfortunately, the audio from these devices is carried over 1394 in MPEG Transport Stream format, not Audio & Music Protocol. The Pioneer A/V receiver cannot accept audio from any of these devices over 1394 because it does not understand the MPEG protocol.

The Texas Instruments 1394 chipset used by Pioneer does have MPEG support built-in - in fact TI supported MPEG long before they included A&M protocol support - but Pioneer unfortunately has not implemented the firmware in the 49TXi receiver to exercise the full capabilities of the TI chip. Hopefully this will be rectified in future versions, or other manufacturers' products, so that ALL the gear in your home theater setup can be daisy-chained into your A/V receiver via 1394.

-Todd

[DanielSmi]

Hey Will Yamaha just announced the new RX-Z9 and has i.Link ports. So that brings the list to Pioneer, Sony, Denon, Mitsubishi, MSB Tech and Yamaha I'd say thats pretty standard the only big companies left are Onkyo, B&K and H/K. I'd expect Denon to introduce a receiver with their DVD player and for Yamaha to introduce a DVD player with i.Link. BTW, this new reeiver will cost $4500

It looks like Pioneer really is a pioneer they were a year ahead of everyone else.

Daniel Smith

[Sevenfeet]

Firewire/i.Link ports still need to be added to receivers that are less than $1000 MSRP and preferably less than $500 MSRP in order to be relevant to most buyers. DVD-Audio/SACD players need to have these ports in the $400 class and eventually in the $200 class. At one point, progressive scan and 3:2 pulldown were expensive features...now they are common and cheap. Firewire/i.Link needs to see the same price point penetration. It will happen, but not as fast as I would like. Maybe we'll see some traction on this at CES in January.

[Will]

Maybe we should list the receivers and DVD-Audio/SACD players with STANDARD digital interfaces that are available or announced, along with their MSRP and when they first became available or will be available.

Model ------ MSRP ------- When First Available

.....
.....
.....

Best,

Will

[iansilv]

I could not agree more on the sub-1K price point. Personally, I am dreading the idea that i have to use 6 analogue cables and maess with some wierd bass management issues to get a decent sound out of an sacd. one digital cable? Sign me up!

[sdurani]

Originally posted by DanielSmi
Yamaha just announced the new RX-Z9 and has i.Link ports. So that brings the list to Pioneer, Sony, Denon, Mitsubishi, MSB Tech and YamahaIt's nice to see additional companies hopping on the iLink bandwagon, but does anyone know if there's any standardization or interoperability between the manufacturers? For example: can you use a Pioneer iLink-equipped player with a Yamaha iLink receiver? (And no, I don't mean via 6 analogue cables!:D)

Best,
Sanjay

[DanielSmi]

Type ------ Company ------- Model -------- MSRP ------- When First Available
Receiver----Pioneer Elite---Vsx-49TXi-----$4500---------Oct 02
Receiver----Pioneer Elite---Vsx-55TXi-----$1700---------July 03
Receiver----Sony ES-------Str-da9000es--$4500--------Oct 03
Receiver----Yamaha--------RX-Z9----------$4500---------Nov 03
Receiver----Pioneer Elite---Vsx-59TXi-----$4500------Nov-Dec 03
Receiver----Denon----------AVR-5804(?)-----(?)----------Jan 04(?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pre/Pro-----Denon-----AVP-1(prototype)--$expensive$---Jan 04(?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DVD/SACD--Pioneer Elite----DV-47ai---------$1200------Oct 02
DVD/SACD--MSB Tech--Super DVD Audio Player-$7995--already avail
DVD/SACD--Denon-----------DVD-5900------$2000------late Sept 03(?)
DVD/SACD--Denon---DVD-1(prototype)----$expensive$---Jan 04(?)
DVD/SACD--Pioneer Elite----DV-59AVi--------$1600--------Nov-Dec 03
DVD/SACD--Yamaha--------------(?)-------------(?)--------Nov 03(?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SACD--------Sony ES------SCD-XA9000ES----$3000-----Oct 03

Some of these are speculation like the Yamaha DVD/SACD I just expect them to release a player aling with their receiver same with Denon but the other way around. If anyone the actual release date of the Denon 5900 please let me know.

Daniel Smith

Thanx Will

[DanielSmi]

Sanjay that's the whole point, if they didn't work together then it wouldn't be a standard it would be proprietary. It's like asking does the component outs on my DVD player work with the Component ins on my TV or course they do. Just like a HDCP source from say Yorx or GPX will work with a HDCP complaint TV from Vidikron. Not that you'd ever put dare put a Yorx or GPX component and connect it to a Vidikron projector I just said that to be extreme:D

Daniel Smith

[sdurani]

Understood Daniel; call me a skeptic but I'd still like to see those combos in action to find out how well they work together. Maybe someone will hook up their Pioneer 47Ai player to one of the new Yamaha receivers and report the results back to this thread.

Best,
Sanjay

[dr1394]

Originally posted by sdurani
Understood Daniel; call me a skeptic but I'd still like to see those combos in action to find out how well they work together. Maybe someone will hook up their Pioneer 47Ai player to one of the new Yamaha receivers and report the results back to this thread.

Best,
Sanjay
What makes you think that the Yamaha 1394 engineers
won't be doing their own testing with the Pioneer DV-47ai?

Ron

[iansilv]

Samsung DVI player not poperly producing picture with DVI inputs on projectors is a perfect example of a poorly implement ed standard. I can see his point- manufacturer incompatibilities could ruin a pending beautiful standard. btw- it really couldn't get any better than this- one simple digital cable for the whole sacd and dvd audio signal.

[tomdowney]

WHEN??? when they pry my 3 pairs of rca cables from my ancient cold dead hands.

[John Kotches]

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there's an interoperability lab for iLink. If it were my standard, I would want to make sure that items with an iLink badge on them worked together properly.

HDMI has already set up a compliance lab, (http://www.siimage.com/hdmi_testing.asp). While not all gear must go through an HDMI test, each manufacturer must have their first product of each type tested. Product types are source (Player or Set top Box), Sink (display), Repeater (Receiver/Processor) and Cable. Without this, the manufacturer can't use the HDMI logo.

Subsequent products within a category need not be tested at the HDMI lab, but must still demonstrate interoperability.

Regards,

[thager]

Originally posted by John Kotches
I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there's an interoperability lab for iLink. If it were my standard, I would want to make sure that items with an iLink badge on them worked together properly.


The 1394 Trade Association sponsors a "Firewire Compliant" Logo and a corresponding suite of compatibility tests that must be passed to earn this logo (http://www.1394ta.org/Events/candi_docs/logo_program_overview.html).

Currently, compatibility of audio formats is not specified on this web page as one of the criteria for compliance, but I believe they will eventually have to address this topic.

-Todd

[John Kotches]

Todd,

iLink is a seperate entity to the best of my knowledge.

Regards,

[thager]

John,

Apple (who owns the Firewire trademark) and Sony (who owns the iLink trademark) have both agreed to allow the 1394 Trade Association to license these trademarks and logos to third parties.

http://www.1394ta.org/license/index.html


The 1394 Trade Association thus is a single entity giving out both the Firewire and iLink logos, though I believe Apple and Sony may reserve the right to bestow these logos themselves independently of the 1394 TA.

The "Firewire" logo is different from the "Firewire 1394 Compliant" logo and only devices wearing the "Compliant" logo are guaranteed to have gone through the 1394 TA compliance testing. I believe only the 1394 TA can issue a "Firewire 1394 Compliant" logo - Apple cannot.

Currently the 1394 TA does not offer similar compliance testing for the "iLink" logo, nor do they yet have a separate "iLink 1394 Compliant" logo with a connotation of compliance to the IEEE 1394 standard and interoperability with other devices labeled "iLink 1394 Compliant".

It remains to be seen whether "Firewire" and "iLink" will actually turn out to represent different sets of 1394 features and thus become incompatible to some degree.

-Todd

[John Kotches]

Todd,

I should have been clearer in pointing out that iLink is a set of encryption protocols over and above the ieee1394 standards.

IMO, having the cerfitication process is worthwhile so that isn't an "educated guess" about interoperability. This seems to be what direction HDMI is headed with their approach.

Interesting times anyway, and the usage of digital methods to transfer hi-res audio is going to have substantial benefits.

Regards,

[catapult]

John, do you know if the current HDMI spec can handle hi-rez audio? I've heard opinions both ways. Some say it can and some say the next version (HDMI 2?) is required. Unfortunately, the spec isn't available to the public.

[adamf]

I have not personally seen the spec. But reading the info here:
http://www.hdmi.org/
http://www.hdmi.org/pdf/HDMI_CPTWG_4-17-02.PDF

It notes: High-Quality, 8 channel Audio capable with 192Khz

The spec can be obtained for about $15,000 (per year and not including royalties). :)

[sdurani]

Ron, What makes you think that the Yamaha 1394 engineers won't be doing their own testing with the Pioneer DV-47ai?I don't know what the Yamaha 1394 engineers will or won't be testing. As I said before, I remain skeptical about compatibility primarily because I have yet to hear first-hand reports by people who have actually mixed & matched 1394 based components from different manufacturers. I don't think it's unreasonable to wait for real world examples of interoperability before automatically assuming it works.

Best,
Sanjay

[dr1394]

It remains to be seen whether "Firewire" and "iLink"
will actually turn out to represent different sets of 1394
features and thus become incompatible to some degree.

No. IEEE1394 = i.Link = Firewire. They are all exactly
the same thing. Also, the encryption protocol for audio
is the same as for D-VHS. It's 5C/DTCP. See:

http://www.dtcp.com

As for interoperability, 1394 audio designers have it easy!
Since there's only a few 1394 audio devices out there, the
interoperability testing is well bounded. Compare that with
the 1394 project I just finished. My customer and I tested
many many devices. DV-Cams, D-VHS decks, Samsung T-165, many
Japanese BS satellite STB's that nobody in the US has ever
heard of, integrated HDTV's, AVHDD's, and PC's (both Windows
and Macs).

Ron

[thager]

Originally posted by dr1394
No. IEEE1394 = i.Link = Firewire. They are all exactly
the same thing.

Ron,

I agree that at the lower layers, such as the physical connectors and the electrical signaling on the wires, you are correct - IEEE 1394, Firewire, and iLink are all equivalent.

However, manufacturers currently have a large degree of freedom to determine exactly which higher-level protocols they will support on their 1394-enabled device and these choices are not affected by the logo they put on the product chassis. For example:

*A HDTV may not support Audio & Music protocol and therefore be unable to reproduce audio from a DVD-Audio player.

*An A/V receiver may not support the IEC 61883-4 protocol and therefore be unable to play back audio from a D-VHS.

*A camcorder may not support SBP-2 and thus would be unable to facilitate high-speed transfer of video data to or from a 1394 hard drive.

* Your cable modem set-top box may not support Internet-Protocol-over-1394, prohibiting it from communicating with your PC except via Ethernet.

Just because you can physically plug two 1394-enabled devices together does not mean they are compatible. The iLink and Firewire logos ought to provide consumers with some assurance of compatibility, but currently they are useless in this respect.

I think that the industry organizations responsible for the development of 1394 recognize the need to make these logos come to stand for something in the consumers' eyes - hence the "Firewire 1394 Compatible" logo from the 1394 Trade Association - and I believe it is possible that the powers-that-be may decide to differentiate iLink from Firewire by specifiying different combinations of higher-level protocols such as IP-over-1394 and Audio & Music Protocol for each logo.

These labels could even come to mean different things at the physical layer - iLink could come to stand for only the 4-pin 1394 connector, while Firewire might still have to contend with both the 4-pin AND the 6-pin connectors.

Of course, this is all opinion and conjecture and isn't worth the pixels it's depicted on... :)

-Todd

[dr1394]

Todd,

Actually, the 1394TA is moving in the direction of test
suites for specific products. I don't know if there will
be different logos with identifying terminology, but I
do agree that there is much consumer confusion about
1394 capabilities between different products. At least the
Pioneer DV-47Ai says "audio" on it's 1394 connectors.

BTW, I'm a member of 1394TA, and my partner and I actually
went through the logo process just as an experiment. Since
our product is a semiconductor (a multimedia processor
with an integrated 1394 LLC) that ends up in real products,
we were not eligible to receive the logo. But we did test
our bring-up board and learned a few things about it.

We are currently adding full 1394 audio (A&M protocol
and A&M specific 5C/DTCP encryption/decryption) support
to the next revision of our silicon. See:

http://www.lsilogic.com/techlib/marketing_docs/consumer/domino_arch_pb.pdf

Ron

[thager]

Hi Ron,

I've been attending the 1394 TA quarterly meetings myself for about three years now. Yes, their focus is on specific product test suites right now, but I was taking a longer view with my comments towards where the Firewire brand might go vs. the iLink brand.

Interesting chipset specs on the Domino. I can see why it would be a little too pricey for a $50 DVD player from China.

Can you verify that the Dolby Digital decoder on this chip will be able to accept Dolby Digital from the 1394 input regardless of whether it is in 61883-4 (MPEG-TS) or 61883-6 (A&M protocol) format? It would be nice if destination devices built with this chip could accept surround sound audio from DVD players as well as digital set-top boxes.

Actually, what the A/V receiver makers really need is a cheap 1394 link-layer controller that understands both -6 AND -4, and can parse the compressed audio data out of an incoming MPEG-TS.

-Todd

[Will]

Daniel Smith,

Thank you very much for listing on the previous page of this thread, all known receivers and DVD players that do or will support the iLink audio digital standard for DVD-A and/or SACD.

If I read it correctly, in the under $7000 MSRP price range, as of today Pioneer and only Pioneer sells anything on the street today, that supports this digital standard.

Thanks again,

Will

[DanielSmi]

Yep Will you're correct Pioneer is still the only company right now. But in two months the Sony 9000es and it's SACD player will be available. But what puzzles me is why is Sony releasing this SACD player with the new SACD II format to be announced next month? This new format is to add video support and stronger encryption it seems that SACD II have all the advantages that DVD-A had over SACD which was the ability to have extras like video clips and whatnot; while the second version of DVD-A called I believe dual disc DVD-A will add backwards compatibility with CD players by having DVD-A material on one side and a CD layer on the other side to equal the compatability that the current Hybrid SACDs has. So SACD and DVD-A are changing so that they both will be essentially equal in features.

In Nov Yamaha will bring the RX-Z9 to the market most likely accompanied with a DVD/SACD player either at the same time or shortly after.

Daniel Smith

[jmsun]

Is i-link sonicly superior to analog connections? I am trying to decide whether to buy the pioneer 49TXi/47Ai combo (i-link) or a Sony SACD player with a pre/pro (analog). Thanks for your input.

[Will]

jmsun,

All i-link players will probably have an analog interface as well as the i-link digital interface. People who have the choice will most likely choose the i-link digital interface.

It's sort of like CD players, today. They also have both analog and digital interfaces. But today most people use a digital interface between their CD player and their receiver. Just like most people use a digital interface between their DVD player and their receiver. So too when people can, they'll probably choose a digital i-link interface not analog between their DVD-A / SACD player and receiver.

The reason we didn't have digital interface much earlier is not because it wasn't the better way to go from the get go. It wasn't done before because the music industry feared the pristine DVD-A / SACD digital signal would be copied too easily. The music industry blocked a standard digital interface for DVD-A / SACD until the standard addressed the music industry's concerns about copying.

A digital DVD-A / SACD interface will let the receiver do bass management and time alignment in the digital domain for DVD-A / SACD music (which can't be done in the receiver with the analog interface) like the receiver now does bass management and time alignment for CD's and DVD's

In any event, digital i-link will give users a choice of either using analog as they do now, or digital. When would a person choose analog over digital? Well, maybe if they didn't want to use the bass management or time alignment inside their receiver and if the DA converter was better in the DVD-A / SACD player than their receiver and if they didn't mind the 6 pairs of analog cables the current analog interface requires for 5.1.

Best,

Will

[Peter M]

Great thread.

The only thing stopping me from pulling the trigger on an MC-8 is the lack of a firm undertaking from Lexicon that they will support digital input for DVD-A and SACD.

Hopefully pressure is mounting.

[mnilan]

To the equipment manufacturers:
Just an add-on to this discussion of digital hi-res connections between receivers and DVD players: PLEASE also include broad bandwidth DVI switching too (HDMI is fine but remember the DVI legacy equipment).

And, PLEASE make sure that the bass management is complete (frequency distribution, distance and timing).

I'm ready to buy one! :D

[jmsun]

Will,
Thanks for the response. But I still have the following question:
Has anyone compared i-link to analog connections for either SACD or DVD-A? Are there any audible differences? I know an optical link is much better than two analog connections on a regular CD player.



[QUOTE]Originally posted by Will
[B]jmsun,

All i-link players will probably have an analog interface as well as the i-link digital interface. People who have the choice will most likely choose the i-link digital interface....