HDTV Card Buyer's Guide

[Eiffel]

Choosing an HDTV card for a computer can be a confusing experience, as indicated by the many postings on this topic here. The North American HDTV card landscape is evolving, making some older threads, or marketing materials on this topic obsolete (some company websites are pretty bad at keeping up with their own products!...). I have tried to keep this posting up-to-date, and do solicit feedback from experienced users to make it better. Finally, if there is some information which you can’t find here, but would like to see added, do let me know.

** As I'm no longer in an area where HDTV broadcasts are available, updating may not occur as regularly in the future. If someone is willing to take over the task of keeping this post current, please PM me**

Disclaimers:
I use both AccessDTV and FusionHDTV cards, and have spent little or no time with the other cards on the market. I have tried to make this positing as unbiased as possible, sticking with easily checkable facts whenever possible (reliability is difficult to assess though!) – I searched AVS, and visited the websites of the card suppliers to build this document

The purpose of this guide is to help each of us choose which card is best for our individual needs (i.e. make an informed purchasing decision). This is not a card specific FAQ or the place to ask for new features.

For now, this guide is limited to products available in North America. HDTV is also available in other parts of the world (Korea, Australia, etc… even Europe), but compatibility is not a sure thing (although Korea comes pretty close).

Given that most HTPCs run under Windows, and that the overall HTPC HDTV market is not that large, this guide focuses on the solutions available for the microsoft OSes (There is one specific card and some software tools for Unix boxes, but Windows solutions seem comparatively more mature).

If there are some errors, or omissions, do let me know, so that I can adjust this post, and keep it current. Thanks!


Common Features

There are quite a few cards worth considering at the moment, each with some unique features. Currently, the AccessDTV, MyHD MDP-120, HiDTV and FusionHDTV (II and III) can be purchased from various on-line retailers.

You may also be able to get older cards such as the HiPix, MyHD MDP-100 or FusionHDTV-I. The MDP-100 and FusionHDTV-I (and II) have been discontinued and replaced by the MDP-120 and FusionHDTV-III which share most of their features and design with their predecessors, while adding a few nice capabilities. Finding a new HiPix, MDP-100 or Fusion-I/II is going to be difficult, but there might be some good bargains on second hand cards or systems which use them. Given the purpose of this guide, we will focus on the latest version of each card family (it’s also a little bit unwieldy to cover too many simultaneously).

Soon there might also be two new solutions: ATI has announced that it will begin marketing a card which appears similar to the Fusion card, at least in approach. Some USB2 based products could bring HDTV to laptops, although they are not officially distributed in the US (If you happen to be in Korea, you can get them ahead of us!). Once these products become available, we'll add them to the guide...

The general consensus is to stay clear from the WinTV-D and WinTV-HD cards, which are older designs, no longer in production, and not in the same league featurewise.

The ‘good’ cards have a great deal in common, so let’s cover the shared features first:

All the current cards can decode Over-The-Air (OTA) HDTV broadcast, as they all understand the 8VSB modulation system. Some cable TV systems rely on this standard for part of their broadcast, but most cable operators use encrypted or unencrypted QAM modulation instead… At the moment, very few cards can be used to view unencrypted QAM:

The AccessDTV card can view some QAM64 and QAM256 broadcasts (but not all, as it has some memory limitations). Note that this card cannot record such broadcasts –and it may never do so-.

DVICO has added partial QAM support in the third version of its card -the FusionHDTV III-. It seems that this card can be used to watch unencrypted QAM64 broadcasts, but doesn’t support QAM256. DVICO makes NO CLAIM about the ability of its Fusion-III Gold card to support QAM broadcasts.

A new DVICO card (the 4th in about a year), the "FusionHDTV-III Gold QAM" is due out soon. This card should be the first one to truely support UNENCRYPTED QAM64 and 256. It is currently in beta test in the US, and early reports are positive...

While full QAM support would be a good thing, it seems that most premium CATV channels will never be available in the clear…

On the satellite side, if you are the lucky owner of a long discontinued Echostar Dish 5000 decoder and have the corresponding 8VSB HD modulator, you can view some of their HD programming (HBO HD, etc.), as this solution sends an 8VSB signal which all HD cards understand… Unfortunately, recently added channels such as HD Discovery are 8PSK modulated and thus not compatible with the Dish 5000 QPSK internal demodulator. Furthermore, Echostar has indicated that it will eventually be migrating all its HD channels to 8PSK modulation.

All ‘good’ cards can save HDTV broadcast to disk, without encryption (AccessDTV files were ‘encrypted’ in the past). They all save the full ‘Transport stream’ (@19.1 Mb/s), without any signal loss. When recording or playing, these cards eat/read disk space quickly (slightly below 9 GB/hr), but even 5400rpm disks are up to the task (such HDs will also be cheaper, and probably quieter and cooler). They all can play the saved files. They also let you view what is being recorded live.

Besides HDTV broadcast, each card can display analog NTSC programming (either from your cable company, or from an antenna). Some of the cards (MyHD, HiDTV and FusionHDTV, and, *tentatively* the ATI Wonder HDTV) also allow you to capture these signals for later viewing (Keep in mind that a separate $40 TV card will give you comparable, if not better, results ). Most cards (AccessDTV and FusionHDTV-I are the exceptions here) also take composite and s-VHS signals for hardware scaling. This is a convenient feature, but dScaler –a software scaling solution- will give you better pictures with a low cost TV card (The FusionHDTV-II and III are directly dScaler compatible for the best of both worlds), if you have enough CPU power to handle software scaling. Because NTSC capture is done via software in the cards that can do it, this feature actually requires a more powerful CPU (800 MHz or more) than for HDTV…

With the introduction of the FusionHDTV cards, we now have the option of hardware or software HDTV decoding. All the other current cards rely on hardware for HDTV decoding (remember the hardware decoders for DVD playback from a few years ago?), but we should expect more software HDTV decoding solutions in the future (The USB-HDTV and ATI Wonder HDTV seem to be based on this approach too).

‘Software’ decoding relies on the CPU and video card MPEG2 decoder (if any) to decode the transport stream. With selected video cards, a PIII at 800 MHz will suffice. If your video card can’t help with decoding, a PIV at 1.8 GHz seems to be the bare minimum. That’s quite a bit more than the ~ 400MHz CPU which the hardware based cards require for HD decoding. Because software decoding relies on your video adapter, picture quality will depend on your video card and drivers (This is a familiar debate to all of us who have been buying Radeon cards for the best DVD playback with Zoomplayer or Theatertek!).

Relying on the computer’s video card has some consequences. On the pro side, you can choose any resolution supported by your graphics card (either by default, or added via PowerStrip), and connect to your display via either an HD15 connector (aka “VGA”) or DVI, if you have one. On the con side, if your graphics card doesn’t support interlaced signals (such as 1080i), you won’t be able to view native 1080i signals and will have to convert them to something else (a few lucky people have displays which support 1080p –good for them!- others will have to convert the signal to 540p, 720p, and loose some detail in the process). Also bear in mind that most video cards only output RGB signals at high resolutions (the ATI component dongle does convert RGB to YPrPb, or component signals, but only at 480p, 540p and 1080i).

All hardware based cards send full resolution HDTV signals exclusively via an HD15 connector (the same type of connector found on a video card) which is on the back of the HD card. The HD signal can be encoded in two ways: RGBHV (same as computer monitors), or YPbPr (Component video, found on most HD-compatible RPTVs). You will need a cable to connect your HDTV card to your display device, as none of the cards ship with one (Probably because there are too many standards for the connectors on the display side). DVI is only supported by one of the hardware based HDTV cards, the MyHD MDP-120. Getting this feature to work requires an optional daughter card with DVI in and out (for passthrough functionality).

The hardware based cards can output HDTV (or scaled NTSC) signals to a limited number of resolutions, including 1920x1080i, 1280x720p, 704x480p and 1024x768p, all at 60Hz. Some cards also have other resolution options to better match fixed pixel digital displays, but none of these cards can send 1920x1080p or above signals due to hardware restrictions. They can scale HDTV/NTSC signals to any of the preset resolutions, regardless of the broadcast signal native resolution.

All hardware based cards can also pass-through the video signal from your video card. They use a supplied cable which connects to the HD15 connector on the video card (or, if you have the daughter card for the MDP-120, the DVI connector). Using this connection allows the signal from your video card to be sent as-is to your display (same resolution, same color system, etc.). Purists will tell you that you will actually deteriorate the signal a little bit (which is true: you ‘pay’ for the convenience of using a single input on your display device. If you have two available inputs, you will be better off…). For a graphical overview of the connection options for hardware based cards, look at www.digitalconnection.com/Support/cliffnotes_14.htm (this document is somewhat dated, as the good folks at DigitalConnection haven't updated part of their site for a while, but the connection schematics are still valid)

Besides the full resolution HDTV output, all hardware based cards can also send a lower resolution signal (480x704x60fps or below) to be displayed on your desktop monitor. This signal can be displayed in full screen (scaled to your desktop resolution then), or in an application window. All 5 cards can do this via your PCI bus (no cable needed, for what’s called Video-Over-PCI, or VOP). The HiPix and HiDTV Pro can also take advantage of a special connector which could be found in ancient video cards (No current card has this connector), using a technique called VIP.

All hardware based cards rely on the Teralogic/Janus TL880 chipset, which explains why they are so similar in many aspects. (The only card to deviate significantly from the Janus reference design is the AccessDTV one)

DVD software decoders have pretty much wiped the hardware DVD decoders out of the PC market, and history might repeat itself with HDTV, as fast processors are becoming cheaper and as software is easier to upgrade than hardware. This doesn’t mean that we are there yet for HDTV, as hardware cards have some key advantages too (by the way hardware DVD decoding is still better than software for video based DVDs!). Even if you have plenty of horsepower, have a video card which supports 720p, 1080i (or better), and don’t need a component signal, the current video cards and software decoders are not as good as dedicated MPEG decoding chips when it comes to handling errors in the signal (the hardware cards will display a degraded picture with some pixelization, which is better than a freeze or no picture at all).

For now, it seems that the hardware based solutions generate a better looking picture than the software based solution offered by Dvico, or other software based HD players. Who’s to blame for this state of affairs is not clear, but the current crop of video cards are the likely culprits, as, among other things, they are probably not optimized for 1080i display (this may change in the future, although most video card development focuses on the needs of the gaming community, rather than those of videophiles). One should also keep in mind that the difference might not be noticeable to many (the display used might not be able to show the difference, and software HDTV decoding is still much better than DVDs and other common sources)

Each hardware based card has an S/PDIF connector to connect it directly to a receiver for AC-3 Dolby decoding of HDTV sources. These cards can also make use of your soundcard's S/PDIF output to send AC-3 signals to your digital receiver (Eliminating the need for a dedicated digital interconnect between PC and AV equipment for multichannel HDTV sound, although some users report problems with such connection). The Fusion cards do not have an S/PDIF connector, but they can send AC-3 signals to a receiver via many soundcards.

They all can send analog stereo sound to a sound card (for both HDTV and NTSC programs) over the PCI bus (all cards but the HiPix and FusionHDTV-I – the latter being able to do so only with HDTV signals), or via internal cables/connector headers (all cards but the AccessDTV).

The myHD and FusionHDTV cards are currently the only cards which can make full use of the analog multichannel outputs of many soundcards: they can software-decode AC3 5.1 signals, without having to downconvert them to stereo (Note than some soundcards can create a multichannel signal from stereo using SRS or other approaches, but this is not the same as discrete 5.1 digital decoding)

All cards have an On-Screen-Display (OSD) feature. The amount, and flexibility, of the OSD feature varies from card to card, and some operations still have to be done from the Windows desktop. Note also that the AccessDTV card is the only one currently supported by a Girder Plugin, by the name of DVDSpy. This support makes it possible to send OSD-like information to an external VFD or LCD display... Also note that an advanced OSD is somewhat of a moot point with the FusionHDTV cards, as they will display anything you could want –and more!- on the screen (it is after all always showing you your desktop, and supports any type of dialog box, girder display options, etc). With the other cards, system error messages (and some advanced dialogs) are not displayed simultaneously with HD pictures on the same screen.

Most cards (AccessDTV is the exception) also come, or can come, with a wireless (IR) remote which provides some control over the card software (The IR remote is optional with the FusionHDTV cards) . To take advantage of this feature, you will need to have a serial port available (Or, in the case of some versions of the HiDTV Pro or –since recently- the FusionHDTV, a USB port). All cards can be controlled via Girder (and a generic IR or RF receiver), with the ability to control more features than the packaged remote.

In practice, the remote and the card software make these cards behave more like a VCR/TV combo than a PVR (Such as a ReplayTV or Tivo). The AccessDTV is the only card to come close, with features such as the ability to record shows with a given actor, instant replay or a live broadcast buffer (more on this in the ‘Unique features’ section of this guide). The second best alternative, if you're interested in instant replay and a searchable EPG, is to get a FusionHDTV card, and to install the -free-myHTPC (www.myHTPC.net) plugin for it. Dvico, the makers of the Fusion family of cards have stated that they are working on adding instant replay/live broadcast to their card (hopefully we'll see the results of their work in the coming few months).

The software of each card allows you to easily pick which channel to watch, start or schedule recordings, and has basic playback functions (Play, Pause, Stop, Forward and Rewind by specific intervals such as 10sec, 30sec, 1 min, etc). To date, very few ‘trick effects’ such as slow motion features, or 2x playback speed are available.

Reliability is still not up to par with consumer electronics, as is evidenced by posts on this forum, and incompatibilities with other software or hardware do exist (Buyer beware). The older cards seem to have a lot of complaints, but they are probably the most common in the field, and their software is still improving in some cases. The newest cards also have to go through growing pains, as speed-to-market is a consideration. Anyone with up-to-date comparative data should feel free to share his/her experience, as this is a very important topic!. It is frustrating to see that the most recently introduced cards often have to go through the same growing pains as the older ones, even for relatively trivial features. We will see if ATI bucks the trend in a few months (hope is free ;) )

If watching (or recording) only one channel at a time is not enough for you, there are now a few solutions. With a fast enough computer, you can have your HDTV card record while watching a recording of your choice with a different software application (for instance, DVHSTools, or Zoomplayer).

Want more? How about watching (or recording) TWO channels at the same time? This can be done three different ways: The MyHD cards have driver support for two cards, and can, with a little bit of effort, run two copies of the application simultaneously. Alternatively, a FusionHDTV card can coexist peacefully with any of the hardware based HDTV cards. Finally, is possible to have multiple cards in a network, and to record or view files over a network (Fast Ethernet, or 100 Mbps, and a switch, rather than a hub, is needed for this to work… wireless is too slow for now). While these solutions do work, they have their own constraints, and have fairly poor ergonomics (no PIP yet, for instance).

The current crop of cards and software all support Win2000 and XP, some do support older Microsoft OSes as well. Windows 2000 and XP have the advantage of allowing to save the recordings in very large files, if your hard disks are formatted with NTFS, rather than multiple files of less than 4 Gb each. XP is the only OS which supports D-VHS decks (and has the corresponding drivers), it is also the OS of choice for each card. None of these cards work on Macs, or under Unix.

Most of the current cards can interface with thewww.titantv.com format for scheduling HD recordings. The TitanTV website, while quite nice, is not a substitute for a full Electronic Program Guide. For instance, you cannot let it pick programs you like by genre. Currently, the HiPix, MyHD, HiDTV and Fusion cards support titantv. Keep in mind though that there is no guarantee that the TitanTV service will remain free or even available in the future for the cards that currently support it.

The AccessDTV software does not support TitanTV, but it offers a nice substitute for the very reasonable price of $10/year. Contrary to titantv's web browser approach, the AccessDTV EPG data is tightly integrated in the application. This means that it is easy to browse the grid with a mouse, and have access to advanced search features. For instance, you can set up the AccessDTV software to only record first run shows which feature your favorite actor, or games with your local sports team.

The myHD, Fusion and AccessDTV cards can also interface with myHTPC's EPG, which relies on XMLTV data. This free solution, once setup, has very nice ergonomics (it can be controlled from your remote, without a mouse) and offers advanced features, almost like a Tivo). Unfortunately, XMLTV is not as good a source for HDTV broadcasting as titantv is.

ATI will likely have a proprietary HDTV EPG solution, but too little is known at the moments about their plans.

Instant and manual scheduled programming (as on a VCR) is available with all cards, but not all cards can wakeup your PC (or the HDTV application) to start recording, forcing you to make sure that your PC is ready ahead of time, and not all cards play nicely with other applications while recording. For the HD cards which do not have the wake-from-hibernation/standby feature, it is sometimes possible to use a third-party software such as myHTPC (or the windows scheduler) to add this feature.

The files that these cards capture can all be post-processed by third-party tools. For instance, DVHSTool allows to transfer these files to a D-VHS deck. HDTVtoMPEG2 can remove commercials, and save the result as a transport or mpeg2 file. Relatively fast computers can also play these files without the need for an HDTV card.

Now that the common features have been covered, let’s look at the unique features of each card (in order of market introduction…) – Please note that the relative importance of each plus or minus varies greatly…

Teleman HiPix DTV-200

This card had been on the market up until early 2003. It is unfortunately no longer available (see: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=333764)

The most remarkable feature of this card, besides being the first good product, is that there was a group of AVS volunteers which had taken over a large part of the software development (they didn’t have access to the low level software, but have accomplished miracles elsewhere!). These people understand our needs and desires, and have added unique features to the Teleman software (This is not open source, in case you ask). Unfortunately, the development by the HiPix AVS team has stopped.

Pluses

+ Has automatic commercial detection/skip capability (for playback of recorded files)
+ Has bookmarking capabilities (allowing, for instance to skip a section of a recording, etc.)
+ Can play DVD directly over the HD output (solution relies on Zoom player, but leaves the overlay available, among other benefits)
+ Supports 1440x1080i and 1368x768p resolutions (Users of LCD, LCOS and Plasma display with such resolution should rejoice)
+ Allows to define unique resolutions per input (For instance, ABC is 720p, NBC is 1080i, Fox is 480p)
+ Can play back D-VHS tapes without transferring to disk first (but can’t record directly to D-VHS as the MyHD, HiDTV or Fusion do)
+ Comes with an IR remote and serial receiver (but functionality is limited)
+ Supports wake from hibernation (Though reliability is unclear)
+ Has extensive OSD, allowing to schedule recordings (up to 32), for instance. OSD is customizable/skinnable to boot
+ Has ‘instant’ start mode for very fast playback or TV viewing
+ has composite video out (Active only if you're not using VOP), which outputs a low resolution video signal that can be viewed on a regular analog NTSC TVs (and recorded by a conventional VCR). While this is not of HD quality, you can view DTV channels with this output, and benefit from the advantages of digital broadcasts (No ghosting, digital sound, etc)
+ Supports PSIP EPG Data (a potential alternative to TitanTV, assuming that broadcasters include such information)
+ Has VIP capability
+ Can fast forward/rewind by 15, 30, 60, 120 seconds, and 10 minutes

Minuses

- Runs hottest (and is not recommended if you have poor ventilation in your case)
- Has daughter board for SPDIF and analog video inputs which takes an additional slot in the back of your PC case (If one is creative, it can be relocated elsewhere, such as in a project box)
- Requires computer skills to install some of the features (DVD, etc.)
- Cannot send NTSC audio over the PCI bus (one has to use either an external 1/8" stereo jack, or connect to a soundcard's internal connector via cable)
- Development has ceased

AccessDTV Digital Media Receiver System

Itech (or www.accessDTV.com) released this card in early of 2001. It is available directly from itech. The card used to retail for $379... but a package with an antenna is currently available for just below $200 (http://216.207.142.133/local/buyonline.htm)

As should be clear from the description of the shared features, this card is unique in some ways. Its hardware has some unmatched capabilities. The AccessDTV card is still the only true self-contained consumer solution for instant replay of HDTV signals (The only other ‘alternatives’ require 2 HDTV cards, or tax heavily your processor and rely on third-party software…). The unique hardware also enables some other features, but the software is not yet taking full advantage of all of them at the moment (although there is real hope…).

Itech ‘handles’ the support for this card and has been adding features and releasing new software betas up until December 2002, though it must be said that their strategic direction, focus, communication policies and limited resources have generated many complaints on this forum.

There is an effort underway by a few brave members of this forum to enhance the software (see http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=310478 ). These few braves are under NDAs, but have access to the full source of the application, contrary to what happened in the past with the AVS HiPix effort.

Since October 2003, they have released new versions of the software which address many of the complaints people have had about this card. The new software releases also adds neat features which are unique in the market. The AccessDTV AVS team has demonstrated that it can deliver. Kudos the team!

Pluses
+ Up to four hour instant replay buffer, an exclusive feature
+ Allows timeshift recording simulplay (aka chasing playback), to pause recordings in progress
+ Advanced electronic program guide (with automatic searches, scheduled data retrieval) integrated into the main application
+ BETA support for viewing of unencrypted QAM broadcasts (recording might come later). – this requires channels below 803 Mhz, and needs some testing to ensure that it works with specific cable operators -- Please note that it may not be compatible with your cable station due to some other hardware limitations
+ Support for networks (watch and record from any networked machine with an AccessDTV card, multiroom viewing with bookmarks, etc)
+ Supported by DVDSpy, the girder plug-in
+ Supports 1440x1080i output, in addition to commonly supported HDTV outputs
+ 5 fully configurable forward and backward skip increments
+ Can continuously display signal strength without requiring to open a dialog box
+ Supports close caption (for both ATSC and NTSC broadcasts)
+ Unlimited number of scheduled recording events
+ Has 2 antenna inputs which can both be used to receive HD signals
+ Beta support by SageTV (recording works well, but playback seems to need some improvement)
+/? Could theoretically play an HDTV recording, while recording another one (enabling this requires some driver rewrite work)
+ Some smart AVS team tweaks (XML based playlist rather than proprietary format, etc)

Minuses
- No bundled remote or IR receiver (although third party solutions can be setup easily given the exhaustive list of keyboard shortcuts)
- No S-VHS/composite video input for scaling
- Requires 2 hardware IRQs
- Cannot take still screen shots
- No build-in wake-from-hibernation/standby capability (myHTPC, or the OS' scheduler can add this feature fairly easily though)
-/? No TitanTV support (but a moderately priced subscription based advanced EPG is available)
-/? No internal audio connectors to interface with soundcard (Sending audio to soundcard is only achieved via PCI bus)


MIT MyHD MDP-100 and 120

The initial MDP-100 card was released over the Spring/Summer of 2002. It had great support from Digital Connection (the actual software work was/is done in Korea). Compared to the two older cards, a lot of the early issues were avoided, and the software seems to have become fairly stable quickly. The price of this card was attractive at $299 (and even $259, when group buys were in effect!), including a full featured dedicated remote.

A new card, the MDP-120m became available in May 2003. The MDP-120 is mostly similar to the MDP-100. It's key benefits are a newer -more sensitive- NXT2002 demodulator- which improves signal sensitivity, a better NTSC picture (4H comb filter which improves video from the tuner or the composite input), a slightly smaller footprint (below 7in vs over 8in card length), and an optional DVI daughter board. It is available from www.digitalconnection.com and other vendors at $279 for the basic card, and $89 for the optional daughter board...

Pluses

+ DVI passthough (MDP-120 ONLY, with daughter card required) – exclusive feature among the hardware decode cards
+ Adds 1440x1080i, 1360x768p, 1280x1024p, 1280x768p, 800x600p and 864x480p (all at 60Hz) HD output capabilities to accommodate a wide range of fixed pixel displays
+ Can do software decode of multichannel AC-3 broadcasts
+ Can pause recordings (to save on disk space), like HiPix
+ Has 2 antenna inputs which can both be used to receive HD signals
+ New generation tuner (MDP-120 ONLY)
+ Can play HiPix files directly (no playlist/post processing needed)
+ Can record and playback D-VHS files without post-processing
+ Can send stereo PCM over its own SPDIF output when watching NTSC programming (same as HiPix)
+ Latest beta can play DVDs upscaled to HD resolutions. Most features of a typical STB are available when playing DVDs
+ Can capture NTSC signals (or S-VHS/composite) with a video codec of your choice (Divx seems popular...)– Viewing requires another application such as Windows Media Player
+ Has extensive customizable OSD (including menus to configure card/display, schedule recordings, or show signal strength)
+ Supports wake from hibernation before a recording
+ Can select between Main or SAP audio tracks on both HD and NTSC broadcasts (and HD recordings)
+ Supports PSIP EPG Data (a potential alternative to TitanTV, assuming that broadcasters include such information)
+ Up to 50 scheduled recordings
+ One-Touch Recording (fixed duration or 'infinite')
+ customizable jump forward (FF, FF*2, 4 or 8) and backward increments (-RW, -RW*2)
+ A set of (old) beta drivers allow to run 2 cards in the same machine (application has not been redesigned to handle 2 cards transparently, requiring opening two instances of the software for now), some drivers are also said to support Hyperthreading (with no performance gain, though)
+ DVI Daughter card adds optical SPDIF out
+/? Could theoretically support QAM and 8VSB decoding (Same NXT2002 demodulator chip as AccessDTV)

Minuses
- DVI daughter board consumers an extra slot which has to be adjacent to the card
- Price (although this has to be put in perspective given the cost of an HD compatible display)


HiDTV PRO 2.0

This card family is the second most recent on the market. It is directly sold by the Korean manufacturer (and must be bought via Paypal). Additional support is available via a bulletin board (//pc-dtv.infopop.cc/6/obb.x?a=rgi&S=692604811). Some experienced members of this board have reported a very good experience with this card, although upcoming support appears uncertain at this time.

Pluses
+ Can pause recordings (to save on disk space),
+ Can freeze picture (while Audio is still active)
+ Offers both VOP and VIP (like HiPix)
+ Can record and playback D-VHS files without post processing (like MyHD or Fusion)
+ Sold with either a serial remote receiver (std edition), or a USB (Pro edition). The Pro remote is a Zapstream model which supports other applications as well.
+ 4 forward and 4 rewind speeds which are all individually customizable
+ Can select between Main or SAP audio tracks on both HD and NTSC broadcasts (and HD recordings)
+ Can do analog recordings (MPEG1/2 codecs only, not best of breed though)
+ Can define ‘Favorite’ channels, and give them explicit nicknames
+ Skinnable desktop interface (with 4 supplied skins)
+ Has 10 video adjustment memories (brightness, contrast, saturation) which can be associated with specific channels
+ Can play unencrypted VOBs (as 'extracted' from DVDs), but doesn't have full blown DVD playback ability (no menus, etc.)
+ Should be compatible with low end HTPC (VIP, internal audio cables to save on PCI bandwidth, etc.). Minimum requirement is PII at 333 MHz
+ PCI card is slightly smaller than full length (1/2" less), thanks in part to an integrated tuner solution (the other cards have a tuner and a separate ATSC demodulator)
+ Sensitivity (ability to pick weak stations) of Thompson DTF8603 integrated tuner is reported as above average (and better than HiPix) by some users (Unclear if it beats the MyHD-100/120 and AccessDTV implementations)
+/? The PCI card is said to support a 3.6v 66MHz PCI bus, which may provide compatibility with future motherboards

Minuses
- Only one antenna input (all the other cards, but the Fusion-I, have two, allowing to connect an antenna and a cable box simultaneously)
- Standard remote doesn’t have fast forward/rewind keys


FusionHDTV-I, -II, -III Gold and -soon- -III Gold QAM)

These cards have all been introduced in the US market over the last 12 months (some additional variants are also been sold on the Korean market, where they're coming from). www.DigitalConnection.com used to sell the F-I card for $139 (plus $19 for the optional remote). The F-II, was introduced shortly afterwards. It went for $159 (plus the same $19 for a remote) and has since been replaced by the F-III Gold. The F-II added a second antenna input, analog video inputs (composite, S-VHS and stereo sound), and external stereo outs, making it simultaneously an HDTV card and a full-fledged dScaler compatible NTSC capture card, thanks to its BT878 chip. The F-III is similar the F-II in capabilities, but relies on a CX23881 chipset and has a few additional benefits (It also lacks a separate composite input, although a dongle is provided)... The current F-III (Gold) doesn't support QAM recording (and DVICO makes no claims about it), but DVICO is beta testing an upgraded version of this card, the F-III (Gold) QAM, which suports this feature. - It is unlikely that DVICO will offer a retrofit program for the purchasers of the III Gold, as they hardware of the new card is different.

Software is improving but some features are missing or require more work (Scheduling recordings lacks reliability for instance). Yet, Dvico is working on adding new capabilities (they plan on adding instant replay/live buffer features in the coming months, for instance). It should also be noted that the Dvico hardware can be used by some third party applications.

For those of us who live in places where ATSC signals are available, DVICO recently released some DVB-S and DVB-T HDTV cards. These are only sold in Australia for now...

Pluses
+ Supports any resolution supported by your video card (exclusive)
+ Can output via DVI
+ Can do software decode of multichannel AC-3 broadcasts
+ Can bookmark recordings (for future editing)
+ Can freeze picture (and save stills to disk)
+ Only card with smooth fast forward capability (similar to what a DVD player would do -- all the other cards only skip forward)
+ Can play and record D-VHS files without post processing (like MyHD or HiDTV)
+ Can timeshift HD and SD using an external -free- application (see www.myHTPC.net for more information)... support within the bundled application is also in the works
+ Can do analog recordings (via any external application which supports WDM drivers, or from the provided software). The Fusion-II and –III variants even support dScaler.
+ Offers 5 video controls (brightness, contrast, saturation, hue, sharpness)
+ PCI card has smallest footprint (comparable in size and complexity to a sound card) - The FusionHDTV-II is actually smaller than its predecessor, and the FusionHDTV-III is even smaller (it comes with two L-brackets, one of which is low profile for SlimPC applications)
+ Sensitivity (ability to pick weak stations) of Sony/Temic integrated tuner/demodulator is above average (FusionHDTV-I was actually better than FusionHDTV-II, which I have found in turn better than AccessDTV) – It seems that the Fusion-III (and its upcoming QAM version) is really good in this regard
+ The Fusion-III appears to support QAM64 unencrypted broadcasts (although Dvico makes no promise about it). QAM256 doesn’t work and may never work. The upcoming 'Fusion-III Gold QAM' should, as its names indicates, support all these formats
+ Lowest cost solution (save maybe for the ucoming ATI cards, although little is known at the moment abot this product)
+ Fancy display overlays (similar to PowerDVD/WinDVD), including EPG, signal strength, scheduled recordings, etc... yet, some people find the overlays to be a little bit old fashioned (too much 20th century ;) )
+ Includes postprocessing software to facilitate the production of DVDs from HDTV recordings (among other capabilites). The Fusion-III bundle actually includes a DVD editing/authoring software (Ulead Media Studio 7SE).
+ Presumably the only card compatible with multiprocessor/multithreaded systems (none of the hardware based cards work reliably on such machines),
+ The Fusion-III adds some valuable features: its A/D converters operate with 10 bit precision (vs. 8 bit for the F-I and –II). This new card doesn’t require a cable connection (internal or internal) for NTSC audio. As indicated above, its TEMIC tuner is also quite sensitive.

Minuses
- Only one forward and backward jump increment which requires editing the registry to change its duration (The featured slider and the smooth FF capabilities provide a substitute in some cases)
- Lacks some convenience features such as last channel recall, subtitles, background recording
- Fusion-I lacks S-video/composite video input for scaling, Fusion-III only offers one connector for either S-video or composite (a dongle is provided)
- Fusion-I has only one antenna input (all other cards, but the HiDTV, have two, allowing to connect an antenna and a cable box simultaneously). The Fusion-II and -III do have two antenna/cable inputs
- Picture quality depends on video card (potentially negating some of the savings), and is not as good as with the hardware based solutions
- Won’t output YPrPb or 1080i, unless your video card supports these formats (which pretty much requires a Radeon video card with some specific drivers)
- Puts higher demand on CPU (unless video card can assume some of the load) -- although most recent systems won't have any difficulty handling the load
- Requires a solid signal to avoid picture freezes (doesn’t pixelate as the other cards do)
- Requires internal hardware connection for NTSC sound (or external connection in the case of the Fusion-II) – the Fusion-III doesn’t suffer from this issue

ATI Wonder HDTV

ATI recently announced its decision to sell an HDTV capture card: The ATI Wonder HDTV. This card will likely be sold as a standalone product as well as bundled with various ATI cards. There are conflicting rumors about the ability of this card to work with All-In-Wonder video cards. It seems likely that this card will only support OTA HDTV (as no mention of QAM support figures in the information that ATI released).

The standalone product is said to have a target price around $100, although this is not from an official source.

The ATI Wonder HDTV will be based on a Philips tuner and a NXT2004 VSB/QAM receiver, and it seems that this card will be a direct competitor of the FusionHDTV-III, as it appears to rely on software for the decoding.

Little is known about the accompanying software solution. Let’s hope that ATI won’t stay true to its reputation for software development… Stay tuned for more information during the Spring of 2004.


Closing Comments

Each card has its own set of pluses and minuses, and I don’t think it is possible to pick an overall winner. Depending on budget and what one wants to do, one card might emerge as the #1 choice (The good aspect of this is that there many good choices!).

The software of each of the cards keeps on improving, sometimes very fast and there are good and bad surprises! There is room for improvement with each solution, and I do hope that 2004 keeps on bringing new features to each of the current cards, and –who knows- maybe an even better next generation card (The upcoming ATI, USB2 HDTV solutions might provide some improvements, but it's too early to say how well they fare).

Due to recent FCC rulings, none of these cards will likely be available for sale in the US after 2005. Some new hardware designs will be required to comply with a newly mandated anti-piracy scheme, although the current cards will still work. While some progress in other aspects of the cards/applications may make the current cards obsolete by late 2005, there will likely be a second hand market for the older designs thanks to the FCC. For more information on this topic, here's a good starting point: http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/wo_garfinkel030304.asp?p=1

**** Recent changes
(4/28/04)
-Updated Fusion-III QAM and ATI information (or lack thereof)
(4/11/04)
-Updated AccessDTV (newer software release) and Fusion-III info (future products/features)
(2/27/04)
-Updated to reflect availability of FusionHDTV-III and upcoming ATI Wonder HDTV
(2/22/04)
-Update about AC3 decode capability in myHD, comments about upcoming products (ATI, Fusion III, and USB based tuners). Removed comments about SDK availability for Fusion products (as this was just a rumor)
(2/11/04)
-Update about EPG support (titantv)
(2/1/04)
-Release of my AccessDTV application, and myHTPC/Tv ToGo support of the Fusion cards
(12/24/03)
-MyHD beta release with full DVD support, thanks to Cliff and the MIT elves ;)
(12/14/03 and 12/02/03)
-Minor updates (MDP-120 NTSC, HiPix availability, Adtv price and +/- etc.)
(11/12/03)
-Updated information on Fusion and AccessDTV
(10/08/03)
-Updated information on all cards
-Incorporated features of new AVS AccessDTV software
(08/07/03)
-Misc edits (discontinued models, typos, etc.)
(07/20/03)
-Fusion beta with TitanTV support added
(07/15/03)
-Misc updates (Fusion beta software, AccessDTV AVS development team)
(05/15/03)
-Price reduction on AccessDTV
(05/09/03 and 05/12/03)
-Fusion II and MDP-120 released, with some new information on each of these products
(04/10/03)
-Edits per edmc's suggestion, and updated Fusion feature list (to 1.12 beta)
(04/07/03)
-Included initial observations about FusionHDTV-I (and announcements about FusionHDTV-II and MyHD MDP-120)
(03/05/03)
-Added information on dual card capability of myHD drivers (thanks to RTK)
-Updated information on Titantv, and move to encryption
-Added explanation related to upcoming software decoding solutions (Fusion, etc.)
(02/28/03)
- Added new resolutions for myHD (1280x768) as per new beta
(02/20/03)
- Clarified (and corrected) minimum processor requirement for MyHD
(01/20/03)
- Added information about upcoming software decode cards
- Updated MyHD feature list to include newly released beta (with a lot of very nice improvements)
(01/10/03)
- Updated info about CC capabilities of AccessDTV (also works with HD)
(01/05/03)
- Updated MyHD ff/rw details
- Added info on HiPix composite out
- Misc edits for clarification (thanks to Rfutscher)
(01/03/03)
- Reduced pricing on MyHD
- Rewrote section on satellite modulation (Thanks to miimura)
- Adjusted statements about analog audio, and driver development for HiPix

[Cliff Watson]

”It is the only card which doesn’t rely on the Janus chip set (though features are comparable).”

Eiffel,

An excellent summary of the current HDTV cards. However, one small correction is the HiDTV card does use the Janus chipset.

[shah8]

You should also add that HiDTV apparently has a superior tuner.

Hey cliff, could you help? My Hipix digital tuner will not start up after a cold boot unless I knock against the case. That's disturbing and I'd like an alternative.

Darius

[MichaelLatta]

Does anyone on this forum know if the lowlevel details of these cards are available. Are there hardware specs that include the chip sets and PCI interface to the cards? The interest is supporting one or all of these cards under Mac OS/X. If so please email me with a URL or details.

[jwtseng]

Excellent post. I still can't make a purchase decision, though. I wish there was one card that was clearly the leader.

[Stefan]

One more thing about the HiDTV is that they claim it supports " 32-bit interface at 33MHz or 66MHz bus clock " and based on the pictures of the card it does seem to be keyed for 3.3v PCI slots. That means it should work in some of the newer 66Mhz PCI slots and perhaps PCI-X slots found on some of the newer high end motherboards. That could be an advantage in two ways. It might ensure compatibility with future motherboards and may help performance a bit also. I myself have ordered one of these cards and this was a factor in my descision to choose this cards. My current motherboard is a Supermicro P4DC6 and I would like to install the card in one of the 3.3v 66Mhz PCI slots on it.

[richardg]

Eiffel, nice job. I hope they pin this to the top as the questions about these cards keep re-appearing. A lot of people on the Projector forum also ask about these cards and I can now reference this thread.

BTW, Please fix the Digital Connection link [remove the comma].

[jkaiser]

Small correction, I did a check at DigitalConnection and while they do have url book marks for ITech and Teleman, they do not currently list either card as being for sale.

[Cliff Watson]

Originally posted by jkaiser
Small correction, I did a check at DigitalConnection and while they do have url book marks for ITech and Teleman, they do not currently list either card as being for sale.

Thanks for finding a missing link for AccessDTV. ADTV is still listed, but not from the iTech link.

[mn3kgtvr4]

Fantastic post. I was worried greatly about the performance of the loop through cables since I use the video overlay often. I recently picked up an Accessdtv card and was pleasantly surprised to find no visible degredation in the signal using the loop through. I use a native XGA pj to a 100" screen and don't even see fuzziness on the small font avsforum text. Again, this was very good news for me. Theoretically, there's got to be some degredation but I can live with it as long as I don't see it.

[edmc]

Superb summary of features of each of the cards - thank you...

But I have one question re:

> Besides HDTV broadcast, each card can display NTSC programming
> (either from your cable company, or from an antenna). Some of the
> cards (MyHD and HiDTV) also allow you to capture these signals for
> later viewing (a separate $40 TVcard will give you comparable, if not
> better, results though).

Could you list which (if any) of these cards pass the NTSC Audio
over the PCI bus (i.e. which do the A->D of the Analog Audio)?

For me, I'm not happy with any of the choices. The design model of
each seems to be more akin to providing a Digital VCR rather than
simply a Tuner. An HDTV Tuner model would have to make assumptions
about the rest of the system it is plugged into - hence, I understand
each of the manufacturer's choice - I just don't agree with it. With HDTV
resolution playback possible on a 1.6GHz CPU with an $80 ATI 7500, I
just don't think HDTV cards should be "solving the playback problem"...

[Eiffel]

edmc,

As far as I can tell, all 4 cards do A->D audio conversion for NTSC broadcasts, and can send the resulting signal over the PCI bus. All cards, save for the AccessDTV, can alternatively send the (analog) audio to a specific connector on soundcards, if you soundcard has it. [Edited statement]

As to your second point, I'm not sure I understand the issue:

Each card can demodulate an OTA signal, which results in a 'digital Transport Stream'. The TS can be saved to disk. It can also be decoded and converted to a video signal available at the back of the card using a hardware decoder. If you have a powerful CPU (1.6 GHz might be on the low end), software decoding is possible, but this technique isn't as mature as hardware decoding, based on what experts users are posting on this forum.

In the future, I wouldn't be surprised if hardware decoding were to be replaced by software decoding (as happened with DVDs), but I'm not sure we're there yet. IF this happens, prices will go down, but I don't know IF and when this will happen. Any insights?

[Cliff Watson]

"(the HiDTV is the only one which can alternatively send the (analog) audio to a specific connector on soundcards, if you soundcard has it."

Are you talking about sending NTSC audio to the S/PDIF connector on a soundcard?

[Eiffel]

Cliff, no, I wasn't!

All cards but the AccessDTV seem to include a cable to connect the card to one of the analog sound inputs of some soundcards (like the internal modem or Aux inputs that some soundblaster cards have). IMO, this is not a significant issue (as the PCI bandwidth consumption for sound is limited, and as there is no guarantee that the A/D converters of consumer sound cards with such internal connectors are any good).

While on the subject, as far as I can tell, all HD cards can send 2 channel stereo sound over the PCI to a soundcard, which can in turn output this stereo signal over its SPDIF. All HD cards can also output multichannel (>2) dolby digital signals via their own SPDIF output connector... but only a few can send these same signals to the soundcard for multichannel output by the soundcard SPDIF connector

Is this the correct way to look at the issue?

[jwtseng]

Any new or upgraded products coming soon?

[JKohn]

From the HiDTV-specific section:
+ 4 forward/rewind speeds (5, 30, 60 secs, and 5 mins)Actually, all 8 increments (4 forward, 4 backward) are individually user-defineable, you can set them to whatever you want.


+ Offers both VOP and VIP (like HiPix), but VOP resolution is limited to 704x24x60fpsLater software revisions have 640x480 support, and maybe more but I can't remember off the top of my head.


+ Maximum file size is customizable (and card ships with utility to merge/split .ts files)On NTFS partitions, you have the option not to split at all.


And a few other items worth mentioning on the HiDTV:

- As another poster mentioned, it has a very good tuner
- Has capability to play back unencrypted VOB's (though not full-blown DVD playback with menus, etc).


Also, I'd have to disagree with Cliff, I'm pretty sure the HiDTV is not a Janus-based card. That's why it has a smaller form factor compared to the other cards.

[Cliff Watson]

"The HiDTV card seems to include a cable to connect the card to one of the analog sound inputs of some soundcards"

You can add MyHD and HiPix to the list of cards that have the analog cable connector.

"While on the subject, as far as I can tell, all HD cards can send 2 channel stereo sound over the PCI to a soundcard, which can in turn output this stereo signal over its SPDIF."

True

"All HD cards can also output multichannel (>2) dolby digital signals via their own SPDIF output connector..."

MyHD and HiPix can also send stereo PCM from the NTSC tuner over the onboard S/PDIF connector.

"but only a few can send these same signals to the soundcard for multichannel output by the soundcard SPDIF connector"

MyHD can send AC-3 over the soundcard S/PDIF. Not sure about the others.

[Stefan]

I understand that the VOP resolution restrictions have to do with bandwidth restrictions, but seeing as how they claim support for 66Mhz PCI for the HiDTV, if I put my card in a 66Mhz slot can I get higher resolutions using VOP? After all a 66Mhz slot should offer twice the bandwidth of a 33Mhz slot.

[russellm]

MyHD can send AC-3 over the soundcard S/PDIF. Not sure about the others.

Cliff,

Are you sure about this?

Reading the manual for MyHD it states the following:

======================================
1. Cable Out (only for analog broadcasting) :

To use the cable output, audio output of MyHD and a sound card must be connected(refer to Hardware installation). If Cable Out is selected, audio output of analog broadcasting is worked by a cable even though Wave is checked.

2. Wave : Audio output of digital broadcasting through a sound card without a cable.

Wave must be selected for Audio output of digital broadcasting.
======================================

It seems to imply that the cable is only for analog audio. I have a MyHD card I borrowed from a friend to test out in my system right now. I currently have am using the SPDIF connector to get audio. If I could actually route the digitial audio through the the onboard sound card's SPDIF that would be much prefered.

Thanks,
Russell

[Cliff Watson]

”Also, I'd have to disagree with Cliff, I'm pretty sure the HiDTV is not a Janus-based card. That's why it has a smaller form factor compared to the other cards.”

Jeff,

As you can see from this picture the HiDTV card uses the same TeraLogic Janus TL880 chip as all other HDTV cards.

The HiDTV form factor is only ½” shorter than MyHD because HiDTV used the cheaper integrated single RF input Sony tuner and does not need the space for the IF path to the separate demodulator chip on other cards.

http://www.nabs.net/cwatson53/HiDTV.jpg

[Cliff Watson]

Russell,

The manual is about 5 versions out of date. I’ve requested an up-to-date manual for the next version release. To send AC-3 to the S/PDIF on a soundcard you select Wave and S/PDIF in the Config Panel.

[Dan Miller]

Does anyone here (Cliff? :) ) know which card can play back high bitrate (let's say 40mbps) HD transport streams?

There are a couple of software MPEG players that can play back 720p transport streams encoded at ATSC rates, but since it is software decoding, it uses ALOT of CPU cycles, and also looks a little soft relative to the same transport stream played back through a separate set top box.

Also, does anyone know if there is any talk of HD cards that incorporate DVI outputs?

Thanks in advance...

Dan

[JKohn]

As you can see from this picture the HiDTV card uses the same TeraLogic Janus TL880 chip as all other HDTV cards.

The HiDTV form factor is only ½” shorter than MyHD because HiDTV used the cheaper integrated single RF input Sony tuner and does not need the space for the IF path to the separate demodulator chip on other cards. OK, maybe the HiDTV uses the Janus chipset, I could have sworn I heard otherwise from reliable sources, but maybe I'm mistaken. As for the tuner, according to one of the Digital Stream engineers the version 2 card uses a Thompson tuner which supposedly has stronger reception than the Sony, Philips, or Samsung tuners.

[russellm]

Cliff,

Thanks for the info. If that works, I can then free up the RCA digital input into my receiver and use that for a stand alone DVD player hooked up through the PJ Multi component inputs of the projector.

Russell

[tylerdurden]

Originally posted by Cliff Watson
Russell,

...
To send AC-3 to the S/PDIF on a soundcard you select Wave and S/PDIF in the Config Panel.

Can anyone confirm that the other cards can or cannot do this?

[edmc]

Didn't parse all the tenses of some of the responses vis-a-vis my question
about passing NTSC Audio over the PCI Bus. The comment about saving
the bandwidth of this crossing the PCI Bus in particular. As I understand
it, 16-bit Stereo 48MHz would consume about 10MB/min (that's ten
mega-bytes per minute) - hardly anything by PCI Bus B/W standards...

I should also point out that this is really only a question for the Audio
of NTSC signals - not ATSC as that Audio is already Digital :-)

W.R.T. the ability of each and every of these cards able to pass the
stream over the PCI Bus, you are of course correct. I guess what
I'm looking for is a decoupling of the "recording" function from the
"playback" function (i.e. using the Video Card in my PC to display the
image rather than something on the HDTV Tuner Card itself). It is
this aspect, apparently, that prevents a single PC from hosting
multiple HDTV Tuner Cards - an unfortunate limitation.

I suspect such an HDTV Tuner Card - i.e. one that only has the Tuner
function - would be quite small/cheap compared to the $300-$400
cards described in this Buyer's Guide. I'm thinking of something in
the $100 range given the low chip-count of such a card. Heck, such
a card is even simpler than an NTSC Tuner Card (particularly one that
includes the A->D Audio function to avoid eating up the lone Aux-In
on my Soundcard).

Thanks for all the replies to my queries...

[Eiffel]

Thanks all for the interesting discussions, and discoveries.

I'll update the initial post tomorrow to reflect what has been said so far. Please note that I won't reflect the comments on tuner performance for now , as I don't know for sure what tuner is included in the retail version of the HiDTV. I'm also suspicious of manufacturer's claims... If there is enough evidence indicating that one card can pick more stations (sensitivity), or that one is better at separating them (selectivity), for instance, I'll then summarize the findings (the same goes for reliability, and other 'partially subjective' topics)

As to AC-3 over a sound card S/PDIF, I can confirm that the AccessDTV doesn't support it (It will also not have any signal on its own S/PDIF when watching analog -NTSC- programming). I also read that the HiPix can now send AC-3 via the S/PDIF output of soundcards

Eiffel

[StormCrow]

Re: Getting MyHD to pass AC3 to soundcards SPDIF....I had no luck achieving this over PCI.

I did try the config Cliff mentioned. Could mobo influence this? Didn't work on my ECS or Shuttle boards.

I am building yet another system...MY LAST...to hopefully get a somewhat, glitch free MyHD experience.

Anyway....

I ended up making a cable...RCA (COAX) attaches to the MyHD SPDIF....then on the other end I had to make a 2 pin female connector for the SPDIF input on my sound card. This works out very well.

If your lucky, your onboard sound has COAX in and out...then any RCA interconnect will work.

[bencooley]

Just to let you know, Cliff Watson is the primary distributor for the MyHD card in the US, so any technical information or opinions in regards to competing products should be taken with a heavy bit of skepticism.

[DAP]

It would be nice to see a feature comparison TABLE in the document, otherwise very usefull.

[Cliff Watson]

Originally posted by bencooley
Just to let you know, Cliff Watson is the primary distributor for the MyHD card in the US, so any technical information or opinions in regards to competing products should be taken with a heavy bit of skepticism.

Ben,

Are you accusing me of “doctoring” the picture I posted.

[bencooley]

Why would you ask me that? I never mentioned the picture.

I've talked to the HiDTV guys. I believe they mentioned that they chose the thompson (not the sony) receiver chip specifically because it was able to get better reception. I have found that reception on the HiDTV is actually quite good. I am presently at the far end of Phoenix from the transmission towers, and I still get excellent indoor reception with an unamplified radio shack UHF antenna. I was quite impressed.

The VOP mode is also 704x480x60.

In any case Cliff, I think it's important to point out that you sell a competing product. It lets people know where you're coming from.

Jens corrected me about the receiver chip, it is not a sony.

[Cliff Watson]

”I've talked to the HiDTV guys. I believe they mentioned that they chose the sony receiver chip specifically because it was able to get better reception.”

You mean the Sony receiver they claim is no longer being used because it’s not good enough.

[bencooley]

Beats me cliff. All I know is that I get great reception in a pretty bad part of town. I can't pick up any signal on my DTC-100. The receiver chip seems to work pretty well.

From what I've heard from a couple of people, the reception on the HiDTV has always been excellent. I think it has always used the thompson chip, and that's probably why.

[bencooley]

In any case, when you badmouth another product Cliff.. you should make sure that you A) have all your facts absolutely right, and B) at least disclose that you are not just an "average user", but actually the distributor of a competing product.

[Desertfox]

Alright,

enough is enough. I had it with Cliff's BS !

Also we never used a cheap "Sony" tuner for the HiDTV Pro ever ! All HiDTV Pro's are manufactured with the Thomson DTF8603 (horizon type) ATSC tuner model.

I think the AVS forum should require full disclosure by Mr. Watson that he works for or owns Digital Connection, the US distributor of the MIT MyHD product.


FWIW: The Philips tuner MIT is using for the MyHD is the lowest priced model available to OEM customers.

Respectfully,

[Kei Clark]

Doesn't the DTC-100 use a Thompson tuner?

In any case, when you badmouth another product Cliff.. you should make sure that you A) have all your facts absolutely right, and B) at least disclose that you are not just an "average user", but actually the distributor of a competing product.

bencooley, I challenge you to point out where Cliff actually badmouthed this competing product. He made a correction to a misstatement with proof to back up his facts.

Desertfox,

Who is we? Never say never because I know for a fact that the Sony tuner was used in the HiDTVPro, I have e-mails from the manufacturer to back up that statement.

Most AVS members know Cliff's association with Digital Connection, there's never been any attemp to hide that fact. DC also sells AccessDTV and sold HiPix in addition to MyHD.

FWIW: The Philips tuner MIT is using for the MyHD is the lowest priced model available to OEM customers.

It should be with the volumes that Philips has solds. Coupled with the Nextwave demodulator and the peripheral support hardware to form the IF circuit, it is not as low cost as an integrated tuner.

[Kei Clark]

Hey Dan the Man,

I don't know of any hardware decoders that was designed to handle that kind bitrate.

Software decoder using the video card and processor is still missing in action, especially after XP was introduced.

As for DVI, I don't know what Korea has is store for us. Do you think it would be worth the licensing and redesign to include it for OTA HDTV?

[PKamp]

A DVI connection worth it? OMG, if it does as much for HDTV as it does for text and graphics clarity on my plasma... it will be worth it's weight in gold

[trbarry]

HiDTV PRO 2.0
... runs a bit hot.


Eiffel -

Great post. But are you sure you have the right card for this comment? I haven't noticed that. It definately runs cooler than my HiPix and (IIRC) also cooler than my no longer used WinTV-HD.

And I thought I'd also heard similar comments about the ADTV running hot, though I have never owned either that or a MyHD card.

Can anyone else confirm the HiDTV runs hotter than any other card? Or is that a typo?

I can however confirm it seems to have better Detroit reception than my HiPix, WinTV-HD, or WinTV-d cards ever seemed to have.

- Tom

[Kei Clark]

Tom's right. The HiDTVPro is not particularly hot, with the HiPix being the hottest. I'm not familiar with the WinTV-HD.

[Eiffel]

Trbarry --
The statement on the HiDTV running a bit hot (not 'full' hot as the HiPix) came from JKohn's review of the card (As Jeff has experience with 2 other cards, I thought it was a credible statement)... (I wouldn't say that the ADTV card runs hot, based on my sample) -- I've just adjusted the initial post accordingly.

DAP -- I don't know how to make a table which will display nicely in this forum (short of an attachement, which would not be searcheable). For what it's worth, I tried to simplify my +/- comments by only including items which the majority (2) of cards didn't have. When 2 cards had a feature which the other ones lacked, I showed it as a plus twice.

Cliff, Kei, Bencooley and DesertFox -- I understand that there are some sensitivities here, which is why I tried to stay as factual as reasonably possible. Now that we re-clarified who's distributing/producing these cards, I want to thank you all for your insider knowledge and contributions.

[mhench]

are there any measurements on these cards
selectivity, mulitpath performance and yeah maybe even sensitivity ?
if not anyone have any idea why not ?
I am trying to consistently get 2 adjacent (yeah the FCC is stupid)
channels running at a 400:1 power ratio, in the city, indoors, when it rains :-)

[jwtseng]

So if one were in the market now, it sounds like the HiDTV Pro might be the one to get. Is this a fair distillation?

[sasha_j]

Originally posted by jwtseng
So if one were in the market now, it sounds like the HiDTV Pro might be the one to get. Is this a fair distillation?

I have 2 PCs running 2 MYHD cards and I realy like them. I rarely watch live TV so lack of a buffer is not an issue for me.

[mlaverty]

Can anyone tell me if the MIT MyHD MDP-100 card's remote has a "skip" ahead feature like a Replay PVR that skips ahead 30 seconds? I've seen references to other cards that have this, but no the MyHD card.

And great buyers guide info - thanks!

- Mark

[tpohlman]

Thanks for your time putting this together.

I wish it would have been available sooner as it would have saved me some frustration with trying to order an AccessDTV.

I ordered one through Digital Connections on 12/17 Got my receipt everything looked fine. I didn't hear anything so I called them on 26 (no HDTV by Christmas I guess) and they said it was backordered until mid Janurary. I was upset they were never going to tell me this so I cancelled my order. I placed an order with accessdtv. My order now still says Order recieved. I have emailed them and called them (you go straight to a recording that says to leave a message or email them). I now just want to get an hidtv card if I click on cancel order it just goes to a page not found.
And I'm still waiting for them to return my email and voice mail messages.

ugg.

I'm starting to think It won't be up and running before the superbowl either.

[dlarsen]

Does anyone here (Cliff? ) know which card can play back high bitrate (let's say 40mbps) HD transport streams?

My MyHD and AccessDTV seem to have no problem with transport stream files encoded @ 30Mbs. The Crawford media clip from the Hurris site is encoded @ 30Mbs and plays back fine on both my MyHD card and my AccessDTV. Granted, it's a small file, (less than 2 min) I also have a larger (32 min) 30Mbs file that plays back fine on MyHD. I've not tried it on AccessDTV as I need a HD to transport the file. I also had the same 32 min files encoded at 50mbs and it has brief periodic blips throughout on MyHD. I had small (1 min) files encoded at 35, 40 and 45 also but I think these were too small to verify operation.

So, in my testing, 30Mbs is OK but 50 is not. 40???

Also, does anyone know if there is any talk of HD cards that incorporate DVI outputs?

I haven't. There are VGA to DVI adapters available if you must have DVI. Gefen makes one but I’m not sure about it supporting 1080i or 720p. I use a custom VGA to DVI converter that does work for HD T/R’s. If you must convert VGA to DVI, I think DVI looses a lot of its advantage however.

Dave

[JKohn]

The statement on the HiDTV running a bit hot (not 'full' hot as the HiPix) came from JKohn's review of the card (As Jeff has experience with 2 other cards, I thought it was a credible statement)... (I wouldn't say that the ADTV card runs hot, based on my sample) -- I've just adjusted the initial post accordingly. That was my general impression, that it runs a bit hotter than the ADTV, but not as hot as the HiPix. That wasn't based on any scientific testing, just my impression from handling the card when swapping them out. But as I said in my review, I've been running the HiDTV in a case that has pretty poor circulation since low noise is a priority for me, and I've never had any stability issues with the card because of overheating. I really don't think it's going to be an issue for anybody.

[Kei Clark]

tpohlman,

Sorry to hear that you've been waiting for the card. I just called shipping to contact you to resolve the back-order. The cards are available, just getting the inventory in-house has taken longer than normal due to the holiday rush.

[stach]

First off, Eifel, thanks so much for starting this thread as I am in the market for an HDTV card and this is helping immensly! In my search, the hardest part for me to evaluate, but probably the most important since the hardware is so similar, is the software. Could people who have the various "Big 4" HDTV cards please post their thoughts on the state of the sofware and also the future potential SW development for their card(s)?

For instance it's now pretty much given that the Hipix has excellent software support since they turned over programming to this forum...and I expect that this will continue.

The AccessDTV card (in which I'm most interested in right now because of it's greater "Tivo-like" abilities) has had very poor software support in the past, but they appear to be coming around. Could people who are using the latest beta code please post their satisfaction level with the new code, stability, etc...and also what their thoughts are on the future of the ADTV software given that ADTV may now realize the importance of SW.

Both the MyHD and HiDTV cards are the newest and therefore hardest to judge on the software side. But hopefully they have been out long enough for a general feeling/trend to have developed about how responsive the programmers are to fixing bugs and providing new features.

So please share your software thoughts (past, present and future) about ALL of the HDTV cards that you own so that we can get a better idea about which card suits us best both now and into the future.

Thank you!
-Stach

[JKohn]

Originally posted by jwtseng
So if one were in the market now, it sounds like the HiDTV Pro might be the one to get. Is this a fair distillation? I would say yes; others might not agree since everybody has their own opinion on which features and capabilities are most important. I do think it comes down to the HiDTV or MyHD, which both have very similar feature sets. I can think of two advantages of the MyHD: 1) dual RF tuner inputs, if you need to use two antennas or an antenna and cable (for analog cable); and 2) the ability to play HiPix recordings without generating a playlist first. The first isn't an issue for me since I only use the HiDTV for OTA-DTV with a single antenna. I've also managed to automate the creating of playlists for my weekly recordings so that's not too big a deal for me, although I'm hopeful the HiDTV will be able to directly play HiPix files without a playlist at some time in the future.

But the HiDTV has two advantages that I find very useful: 1) Background recording (no overlay window, no sound output, no visible program interface at all except a flashing tray icon); and 2) Four user-defineable ff/rw increments (my understanding is that the MyHD only has one). The HiDTV also has a very good tuner, and the software is extremely stable in my experience, definitely more so than the other cards I've used.

[jkaiser]

I have the MyHD card, and reason was at the time AccessDTV was still having support complaints and Hipix cards were on 2 month back order. HiDTV card was not out yet so it wasn't even considered. The MyHD card was on a Power buy which at the time was a $50 discount (I think) and having 2 F connections.

Software has been up and down for me on the MyHD. Never so bad as to chuck the whole mess. They kind of lost focus with 1.55.2 when they were working on playing DVDs (not that it was bad, but other items needed attention first.) 1.55.3 came along with fixes and TitanTV scheduling. Now it seems like nothing new is showing up from them, I think it is going on 2 or 3 months.

[Kei Clark]

Jeff,

You forgot the third advantage, the new under $300 price. ;)

[mn3kgtvr4]

Stach,

I got a good deal on a used Accessdtv card about a month ago and I'm also in the MPLS area. The version 2.4 public release sofware they have on their site isn't bulletproof by any means. I played around with it for 10 minutes before uninstalling and reloading with the 2.5 beta drivers and app. 2.5 has been totally bulletproof for me and seems to be the version which fixes any previous bugs, adds things like free program guide through titantv (and several others), unencrypted files, etc. The TIVO like functions really work well and it's done in hardware so is also very fast.
Customer support has been very good (except over the last holiday week when I don't think anyone at all was on staff) with my emails being responded to within an hour or two. I've only got one issue so far and it has to do with our local PBS station on 16.1. 16.1 is kids programming all day and there are 5 subchannels in total with all the other PBS programming. If I try to tune to a subchannel using ADTV, Windows reboots. Annoying to say the least. I contact ADTV and was told the issue is with the local station encoding the signal the wrong way. Not sure I believe the explanation since I'd presume every STB in the area would have the same problem. At any rate, they're supposed to send me a fix any day now.
I don't know of any other local folks using an HDPC card so can't verify if this is a software issue or not. I have no experience with the other cards but all the things that DO work on the ADTV have justified the cost for me and then some.

[Eiffel]

Stach,

I can only comment on the AccessDTV software (under ME and XP). Overall, with the latest betas, stability is acceptable (Better than TT 1.2 or MJ 9 beta, but not as good as TT 1.5 or PowerDVD, if this helps). Once in a while, after using the software for a long time (say overnight), it won't shut down and will have to be killed manually. I feel that the latest betas are an improvement from a reliability standpoint (the 'beta' background recording is not working properly for me though, and I only use the video overlay sparingly in XP).

There are also a few annoying little bugs here and there (date formatting, hibernation/standby while application is running, etc.)

The big question for me is 'where is iTech headed?'. As is probably clear from this thread, the software of this card is lacking many features that the competitors have, and is not taking full advantage of the unique hardware capabilities. Some of the recent developments have been very positive (stability, removal of encryption, longer replay buffer), but other recent efforts have been very strange, to say the least (a very buggy post processing application to generate a single file per recording).

Many of us have expressed our frustration to iTech, and can't seem to understand some of their directions (file names are impossible to read, it is impossible to skip forward or backward when watching TS files which weren't originally created by the ADTV main application, to name some obvious issues). Many of these issues appear to be easily fixable, but iTech is focusing elsewhere (as illustrated by their postprocessing application which is less powerfull and reliable that free solutions such as HDTVtoMPEG...)

I look forward to see how things will shape up this year (But I would certainly like to have more confidence in what's brewing!)

[tpohlman]

I'd just like to thank Kei and let everyone on the board know I did get a call from Digital Connections apologizing for their shipping problems. They said they had one available and offered me free next day shipping.

Kei also offered to make sure my order was canceled from accessdtv.com.

I will be making a decision in the next hour or so if I want to take them up on it or get the HiDTV pro.

Anybody have a last minute comment to help me make up my mind.

My wife and I really like our TIVO. (which is why I picked ADTV)
My wife will be using this so the simpler the better.
I don't need a second antenna input (I use satellite)
I will be using an indoor antenna. But at the antenna web page all channels but Fox were green. Fox was the next best color. (thinking maybe I should get the better tuner on the HiDTV)

Thanks

[Nosfentaru]

I thaught I read somewhere that currently none of the cards can record 720p or 1080i signals. Is that still the case? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere above.

Thanks,
Russ

[Kei Clark]

Russ,

All of the cards record 720p or 1080i.

[Eiffel]

Nosferatu,

All 4 cards record the full transport stream (basically, every bit of information that broadcasters send), so they do 'record 720p and 1080i' signals (If that's what is being sent).

There is also no loss in the recording process (a recorded program will look exactly as good as live HDTV), which is better than what a Tivo, or VCR can do (no AD/DA conversions)

The confusion about recording may come from the fact that the 4 cards can only record 8VSB signals (they won't record QAM signals from a satellite, and they won't digitize component video)

[miimura]

Eiffel,

One more correction: DSS Satellite does not use QAM. They use QPSK or 8PSK. Dish 5000 only has QPSK decode. The new HD channels like HD Discovery use 8PSK which is why Dish 5000 can't get it. Echostar has said that they will eventually be migrating all HD channels to 8PSK. That is why people think that the 5000 will be a short lived solution for recording. That is also why all the Dish 6000 recievers are now being shipped with the 8PSK module. It used to be optional. Only cable uses QAM (64QAM and 256QAM). Nevertheless, enabling QAM decode on these HD cards would be useful for receiving eventual HD programming from cable. Hopefully it can be done by software update.

- Mike

[HiDefDon]

Originally posted by Eiffel
Nosferatu,

All 4 cards record the full transport stream (basically, every bit of information that broadcasters send), so they do 'record 720p and 1080i' signals (If that's what is being sent).

I understand the OTA transport stream is 19.1Mb/sec so why are people talking about recording rates of 30Mb/sec and 40Mb/sec?

DonP

[dlarsen]

I understand the OTA transport stream is 19.1Mb/sec so why are people talking about recording rates of 30Mb/sec and 40Mb/sec?

19 ain't enough to avoid most all compression artifacts. More is better. It makes a big difference for 'eye candy' demo loops etc. When a $350 card can compete with $15K video servers, data rate plays a big part. Not all content has to come OTA.

Dave

[dlarsen]

A DVI connection worth it? OMG, if it does as much for HDTV as it does for text and graphics clarity on my plasma... it will be worth it's weight in gold

The text and graphics from your PC probably contain information in excess of 100Mhz. The information in your HD video source has bandwidth limited to less than 10Mhz. I haven't found DVI to offer much if any 'improvement' for most motion video. I only use it because I have to. IMHO, DVI is overkill for BW limited HD video. (And will need to carry with it some sort of evil? HDCP?)

Dave

[balazer]

With the HiPix, NTSC audio is available only on the HiPix's analog audio outputs (internal multimedia connector and external 1/8" jack). It is not available via S/PDIF or your sound card's WAVE device.

ALL digital audio (be it >2 channel or otherwise) is available on all of the HiPix's outputs.

[balazer]

I will say that Telemann's lack of commitment to the HiPix has proven to be a double-edged sword:

On the one hand, the AVS development team has been extremely responsive to feature requests, and for that we have a very complete piece of software.

But not all features are pursued by the AVS team - it tends to be just those features that the developers care about. And driver development has ceased - there won't be any additions to the driver's core functionality or improvements to stability. Though I will say that my HiPix has been fairly stable, and has caused only a handful of crashes over many months.

Perhaps these are non-issues if the card is not available.

[rsilvers]

If anyone goes to CES next week please report on HDTV PVRs. Ask DirectTV when the 921 will be out, and ReplayTV/Sonic Blue when they will do HDTV. I am currently torn because I had just gotten used to never watching live TV, and now suddenly having my antenna pick up a vastly better signal than what I get from cable.

[ElvisIncognito]

I don't have it yet, but I ordered a MyHD. Here's why...

HiPix
There are definite availability issues with the Hipix. I noticed that nobody actually responded to Originally posted by Eiffel
Teleman HiPix DTV-200

This card has been on the market for well over two years. Its availability is unclear to me (I believe it can be bought from a few resellers, or by contacting mkanet (AVS moderator, and HiPix guru). Current price is also unknown —please confirm?I tried to check pricing - seemed like it was never actually in stock/available, but if it had been, it would have been approx. $400 - 33% more than the MyHD. I'm not sure this card has a future, so I ruled it out.

AccessDTV
I really like the TiVo-esque features, possibly even enough to pay an extra 27% (relative to MyHD) for them, BUT - the forum IS filled with complaints from people who are unhappy with Itech, and I'm confident that the feature set on MyHD will soon match and eventually exceed that of the ADTV.

HiDTV
By process of elimination, it came down to this card or the MyHD.
The HiDTV is $70-100 more than MyHD (depending on the version of the card - and if only the Pro version has FF and REW on the remote, then in order to compare apples with apples, I guess you're looking at $100 more than the MyHD - that's a 33% premium.) Lastly, I don't see the kind of support on the forum for the HiDTV card that the MyHD has... Take a look at this tech support thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=152172) or the MyHD Feature Request thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144125). Looks like we, here on the forum, have the same kind of input on the MyHD that people tout for the HiPix...

In the end, I'm thrilled to have Cliff and DC thoroughly supporting MyHD, so I gave it (and them) my "Master Card Vote Of Confidence".

(Don't let me down, Cliff! ;))

[apnar]

AccessDTV
I really like the TiVo-esque features, possibly even enough to pay an extra 27% (relative to MyHD) for them, BUT - the forum IS filled with complaints from people who are unhappy with Itech, and I'm confident that the feature set on MyHD will soon match and eventually exceed that of the ADTV.


The main advantage of the AccessDTV is the ability to pause live programing (and hopefully later on with a software update, play one prerecorded show while recording another). This is due to the fact it has extra hardware not found on the other cards.

Just thought I'd point out that those features are not possible on the MyHD and will likely never be without a hardware revision or adding a second card.

-apnar

[ElvisIncognito]

Good point. Odd, though, that the one card that allows you to pause live TV is the one card that doesn't come with a remote. I guess that (il)logic contributed to my decision to rule it out.

One of the feature requests for the next MyHD SW release is a stand-alone player for .TS files... This makes good sense on several levels - I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it in a future version of the SW. Done properly, (i.e. using software decoding,) player software should certainly be able to play a recorded show while the hardware (card) is recording another. CPU utilization, I'm told, is quite low when recording HD to disk with the MyHD - leaving plenty of free cycles for software decoding during playback.

Seamlessly integrating a software player with the hardware recorder is a whole 'nother issue, and may take some time to get it right. AND, there are surely other ways (beyond a SW player/decoder) to create/utilize a buffer via software (e.g. virtual memory or using a "SmartDrive").

Again, one of the main reasons I chose MyHD was the responsiveness of the developers to the desires of the user base... I feel confident that "if we come, they will build it". If they can't get it done via the mehods I've outlined, they'll find another way (e.g. a mod or daughter card) to add these features if enough MyHD users demand them.

If it turns out that I'm wrong, then I'll replace the MyHD with a next generation product from another manufacturer, but I'm sure I'll get my $300 worth of enjoyment out of the MyHD until then.

[Eiffel]

mlaverty -- I have no information on the ff/rw increments provided by the MyHD software. I'm sure it has some, as people would have complained loudly here. Could someone enlighten us?

ElvisIcognito -- This forum is as key support channel for both the HiPix and MyHD cards, which is why we see a lot of traffic about new features and the good and bad of these cards. Cliff Watson, mkanet and others do provide great service to us for sure, and it would be nice if the other cards had the same level of responsiveness to postings here.

The backers of the HiDTV card are much less active here, which doesn't necessarily mean that they are less responsive to user questions and needs (There is a forum dedicated to the HiDTV elsewhere, and Jkohn and others seem to be directly in touch with the supplier). While on the subject, there is no official support forum for the ADTV card, as iTech handles support on a one-on-one basis)

[sdf777]

As noted earlier, the MyHD software has come a long way to become stable, but no software updates in almost 3 months (and no indication of any pending releases) leave it lacking in some features. The ability to rewind and FF with only 1 setting for both is a major drawback which comes to mind.

[JUN_H]

I am trying to make sure if MYHD is right for me before I place an order. I am using a 20'' LCD ( native 1600 * 1200 ) which also supports 1280 * 1024. The newest MYHD driver includes the support for 1280 * 1024P ( 1024 * 1024i). Does that mean I can run full screen mode on the LCD with this new release? Thanks in advance.

[haysdb]

I have the HiDTV card. It works well and the software has been stable, but they have been totally unresponsive to posts on their support forum over the past couple of weeks. It may just be "the holidays" and may the support guy has been on vacation, so I am willing to cut them some slack, but if it comes down to a coin flip for you between the MyHD and HiDTV, this may be a factor for you, and I'd suggest you spend a few minutes at their support forum to see whether questions are being answered in a timely fashion.

David

[sedavis01]

JUN_H's comment made me think of something. How does one's display impact card selection? Is it a relevant consideration? Should someone like me who has their HTPC hooked up to a projector (AE100) choose a different card than someone who has a monitor hooked up?

Secondary Question: Since my projector has an abnormal resolution, in terms of computer displays, of 858x484, would that impact which card I should choose?

[Eiffel]

sedavis01,

Displays are certainly a factor in choosing a card, especially if you have a fixed resolution display (LCD or DLP projector, Plasma or LCD monitor).

A card that can output at a display's native resolution should give better results, assuming everything else is equal (scaling a digitial signal on a HD card should beat scaling via the integrated scaler of most, if not all, displays. Moreover you'll avoid scaling the picture twice, if the card output is not set to match the broadcast resolution).

As far as I know, the MyHD has a resolution very close to the one of your projector... and you might get it to work perfectly by adjusting some settings on your projector (Losing a few pixels on the side is probably a good tradeoff)... It is probably worth asking what resolutions other users of your projector like most (for DVD viewing with an HTPC, and ideally for HD using a MyHD card)

[JUN_H]

Eiffel,

Do you think my LCD panel will sync to MYHD at 1280*1024P?

Thanks

[haysdb]

Eiffel,

VERY nicely done, a MOST excellent contribution, sorely needed. It would have made the job of selecting a card much easier for me. Too late for that, but it's sure to help many many others.

David

[Eiffel]

JUN-H, I can't tell you for sure... It is probably better to ask this question directly to DigitalConnection (do report what you learn here!)

Eiffel

[Kei Clark]

JUN-H,

Yes, your LCD and MyHD should sync up nicely at 1280x1024. I normally run mine (1280x1024 native) at 1280x720 and use the scaling feature set to 1:1 pixels (sometimes labled as "maintain aspect ratio").

David,

You have HD broadcasts in Wichita?

[occammd]

Kei,

Good to see you are on today. I, like probably many others, want to get an HDTV card for the superbowl. I was leaning toward the HiDTV card, but have always been impressed by your responsiveness. My concern is reception. I have read that the HiDTV has a leg up on the MyHD for reception. I am in Florida and have a 3 story house. This gives me Line of Site to the antenna farm about 20 miles away so normally reception is not an issue. It is the thunderstorms that concern me, they occur quite often. I really need to get a card soon, but need to know your honest assesment of reception on the MyHD vs the HiDTV. I know your connection to distribution of the MyHD and feel comfortable with you and Cliff's honest response.

Thanks,
Ray

[sedavis01]

Yes, Eiffel thanks for the response. It was very helpful.

As for DVD, I use powerstrip with my normal HTPC VGA to get the native resolution output to the projector. However, because the video card passes through the HDTV card, those settings wouldn't apply. That was the driver behind my question. As of yet, I haven't been able to find any posts in the forums that talk specifically about using an AE100 with a PC-based HDTV card. If anyone has experience with this, please let me know how it works.

I'll have to look into how my projector will deal with a resolution that is slightly off. I believe that it typically scales the inputs to match the resolution, so I'll have to figure out what the settings are to "crop" the image as you suggested.

occamand,

I had the same thought about the superbowl, I wouldn't be very surprised if many of the people reading this thread are aiming for that. I'd guess that someone selling HDTV cards would do pretty well if they offered deals over the next 3 weeks or so.

[Eiffel]

sedavis01,

You're right about the powerstrip settings not applying to HDTV (sorry if my previous statements were confusing on this topic). The reason I asked about these, is that some people find that letting their projector 'downscale' works well (It's probably not that common, but I wanted to cover this possibility).

On my projector (Sony LCD), there is a setting called H-Size to crop the picture on the sides (it is next to the H-Pos and V-Pos settings). Alternatively if you have a 1:1 pixel setting, this may be worth a trial as well
-- By the way, I have found the V-Size, H-Pos and V-Pos adjustments to be useful in getting the most of HD broadcasts (by default, part of the picture was cut). Of course YMMV

[Kei Clark]

Ray,

Thank you for your confidence, those are mighty kind words. :)

I too share the same questions as you, but the answers are not so clear from where I stand. Comparisons of tuners reception is one of the most difficult claims to prove or disprove without valid data from a reliable testing lab or the FCC who does not publicly release information. We're down to experiences of the very rare member(s) that owns both cards, and even that could be skewed by signal quality, time of day, weather, use of splitters and combiners, etc. I can't comment on reception during thunderstorms, I had to leave the state to see one many years ago. Whichever card you decided to purchase, I'm sure you'll be happy as you are a mere 20 miles away from your transmitter. :)

[Cliff Watson]

”I can't comment on reception during thunderstorms, I had to leave the state to see one many years ago.”

Unlike Kei I can comment on reception during thunderstorms. Thunderstorms are almost a daily occurrence in southern Georgia during the summer months.

The effects are the same for all cards and results in short dropouts (breakups) during electrical discharges. The only time I’ve lost a signal for an extended period of time was when lighting struck the transmitter tower and it was knocked offline for an hour until the engineer could reset the power and reboot the encoder.

Heavy rain does slightly decrease the SNR by few dB, but if your signal is not marginal in clear weather that should not to be a problem.

[trbarry]

I'll notice the difference during heavy rain in summer, on any card. I have a rooftop rotor antenna, however it usually points SE, directly into a wet maple tree during storms. But even then it does not make it unwatchable or usually ruin my recordings.

But this was part the justification for my old sig here: "This sentience has tree errors" ;)

- Tom

[johnwcookjr]

Hi all,

As I stated in the HDTV Hardware forum the HiDTV outperforms my Dish6000 for 1080i clarity and detail when viewing local digital channels. Also, the HiDTV does a better job of up-converting analog channels to 1080i and scaling Laserdiscs via HiDTV's composite and SVideo inputs was clearer than my previous efforts using a Cybertainmnent video capture card and Dscaler. To me the Cybertainment capture card was soft and noisy compared to the composite and SVideo inputs of the HiDTV card. The only drawback is capturing SVideo/Composite via this method is the lack of Dscaler scaling quality in the overlay and the lack of zoom when using HD-Out. Viewing laserdiscs in HD-out mode is clearer than scaling the VOP to desktop resolutions but viewing a letterboxed laserdisc in HD-out mode results in a windowboxed picture. Maybe they'll add zoom capabilites to the HD-out mode someday.

Overall I'm quite happy with my HD tuner card purchase, OTA reception via the HiDTV card is less prone to dropouts than my 6000 receiver and the 1080i output is clearer more detailed. The ability to finally record HD and playback at my leisure (even if it is only local OTA) is a definite bonus.

Regards,

John

[Qyv10]

Hi all,
I have a slightly OT question.
Has anyone used antennaweb.org as a basis for antenna purchase?
What I'm wondering is if their assesment of which antenna is needed is accurate?

I would like to get a MyHD or HiDTV but I don't have the luxury of putting up a tower for the antenna.
I rent an apartment and am surrounded by 60' tall trees.
Antennaweb says I need a medium directional with a preamp.
Can I actually use something smaller and mount it just above the roof and still get a decent signal?

The only real problem I see is that 2 of the stations here are in the VHF (2 & 7) part of the spectrum and these are usually hard to receive.

Thanks, Troy :)

[haysdb]

I don't think any generalizations can be made about the accuracy of antennaweb's recommendations. In my own case, a few months ago it was telling me I needed a medium directional antenna, which was obviously overkill since I have line-of-site to the towers less than 10 miles away, but now it tells me a small omnidirectional antenna will suffice. This seems to be an example of them updating their database or refining their algorithms.

How far are you from the towers? Is the terrain hilly or flat? Are there tall buildings around you? From this information someone could probably give you a gut feel for whether antennaweb is in the ballpark.

And you are right, this is off topic for this thread.

David

[Karnis]

Originally posted by Cliff Watson
Thunderstorms are almost a daily occurrence in southern Georgia during the summer months.
Heavy rain does slightly decrease the SNR by few dB, but if your signal is not marginal in clear weather that should not to be a problem.
We get plenty of summer thunderbusters in MD and I've noticed that my DTV reception actually improves by a few points during bad weather. DirecTV will be long gone (w/ 3 LNBs all at 90 -98, but will lose it during extreme downpours) but DTV gets a little better. Go figure!

[Qyv10]

Well I did some research, a couple of hours worth, and if I am reading stuff right then the farthest stations (4 of them) are between 75 & 85 miles away.
So I would guess I'm pretty much SOL.
The only close stations (CBS & ABC) are about 50 miles away.

Oh well, I guess HDTV is out for me.
:(

[Dan Miller]

Originally posted by Qyv10
Well I did some research, a couple of hours worth, and if I am reading stuff right then the farthest stations (4 of them) are between 75 & 85 miles away.
So I would guess I'm pretty much SOL.
The only close stations (CBS & ABC) are about 50 miles away.

Oh well, I guess HDTV is out for me.
:(

That depends on what you are willing to do. I live right next to Asbury Park, NJ, which is about 50 miles to NYC with hills in between and 80 miles from Philly. I put a 25 foot mast on my roof supported with guy wires, an 8 bay bowtie antenna and an antenna preamp. I can get all the stations on the antennaweb list.

I use a remote controlled rotator from channel master and i used infomation available on the web to find the exact location of the actual towers involved and put the coordinates into the control for the antenna. It becomes part of the macro used to tune the channels. Works pretty well.

Dan

[sasha_j]

Originally posted by Dan Miller
That depends on what you are willing to do.

Dan

Right on Dan! Couldn't agree with you more.

Check out what this DTV hard-core did for his home near Portland Oregon:

http://coyotecreekranch.com/DTV/

This site shows what can be accomplished by the truly determined. Antenna height and dual stacking were the keys to success in this instance.

In the western Michagan case, you may well be borderline, by I would at least try a site survey using a spectrum analyzer by a qualified installer. Getting HD OTA is worth it.

[Lee Wood]

Slightly OT (and maybe too techie), but I want a card to monitor my DTV station and its performance. The STBs on the market are all over the place and generally 'feature poor' for DTV reception.

I'm interested in a card that supports full PSIP EPG, multicasting, Closed Captions, multiple audio services (SAP), etc. Are there any good candidates for this use?

Also, do any of the cards provide utility software that allows you to look at and analyze the transport stream for PID content and the like? What about displaying the equalizer tap energy or other reception related functions? (Great for antenna aiming and reception problem diagnosis.)

Any input would be appreciated.

Lee

[Qyv10]

Thanks for the replys.
Since I rent an apartment it probably wouldn't go over to well putting up a big tower.
Also it would be pretty expensive I think.

I might try a small setup and see what the ABC & CBS look like.
If I can get them really good then I might try something more aggresive (like the double stacking) to get the others.

Thanks for the help.
:)

[Eiffel]

Lee,

I don't think there is a card which will fit all your requirements...

1. The HiPix is the only one which supports the PSIP EPG, but I don't know how extensive support is.

2. All cards support multicasting (and the ADTV might support datacasting, though I've never been able to test these features)

3. The ADTV is the only card which supports CC (with both digital and analog broadcasts)

4. SAP is only supported by the MyHD and HiDTV

You should be able to analyse off line the transport stream generated by any of these cards (there are universal tools for this).

I suggest you look for more information about the HiPix software capabilities, as it is probably the one which exposes the most technical information on reception, bit rate and the like (Search for the mkanet posts announcing the new features in each edition of the AVS version of the HiPix software)

Eiffel

[rsilvers]

Originally posted by sasha_j
Right on Dan! Couldn't agree with you more.

Check out what this DTV hard-core did for his home near Portland Oregon:

http://coyotecreekranch.com/DTV/

This site shows what can be accomplished by the truly determined. Antenna height and dual stacking were the keys to success in this instance.


I doubt the 3db gain from dual stacking is a good way to spend resources. I mean, I would only do it if a single truely failed.

[Stefan]

I doubt the 3db gain from dual stacking is a good way to spend resources. I mean, I would only do it if a single truely failed.

Doesn't stacking also reduce problems with multi-path signals and make the antenna array more directional? If so then stacking could have benefits beyond just the 3db gain acheived could it not? Of course, I could be wrong about this.

[ElvisIncognito]

Originally posted by Dan Miller
I use a remote controlled rotator from channel master and i used infomation available on the web to find the exact location of the actual towers involved and put the coordinates into the control for the antenna. It becomes part of the macro used to tune the channels. Works pretty well.
Dan-

Can you elaborate on this a little? (Please pm me if you think this is too OT.) I will be buying and installing an antenna and rotator in the next few days, and I want to make sure I have the capability to rotate the antenna via a macro.

Thanks in advance!

[sasha_j]

Originally posted by Stefan
Doesn't stacking also reduce problems with multi-path signals and make the antenna array more directional? If so then stacking could have benefits beyond just the 3db gain acheived could it not? Of course, I could be wrong about this.

Stacking antennas offers many benefits, especially for problem location areas. See:

http://pages.cthome.net/fmdx/stackant.html

[Dan Miller]

Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
Dan-

Can you elaborate on this a little? (Please pm me if you think this is too OT.) I will be buying and installing an antenna and rotator in the next few days, and I want to make sure I have the capability to rotate the antenna via a macro.

Thanks in advance!

Channel Master makes only one that is remote. I believe that Radio Shack also rebadges it. It allows channels to be stored in the control box and it remembers the headings based on that.

Dan

[pepar]

Does the author have any comments/observations re performance?

[Joe Mal.]

Wow. This was great. Let me add that I spent a couple hours today to finally read everything and figure this all out and this was a great help along with some FAQs on MyDVD.

I just feel like I may have jumped in to fast. For instance is there an even more basic section about OTA HDTV? For instance I have no idea what type of cable is needed to run from the antenna to the card. This is probably covered in one of the other forums but I wasn't sure. Any direction would be a great help. I understand all of this very well but I feel like I skipped over the newbie parts.

Thanks again for everyone who offered up info in this thread, especially Eiffel!

[Eiffel]

Joe-- Have you looked at the FAQs and sticky threads in the HDTV section of AVS forum? ... if you haven't this answers some of the basic questions about HDTV, what it is, what's available, etc.

To answer you cable question, all the HDTV cards need to connected to antenna(es) with regular 75 Ohm coax cable (this is the same cable that is used to connect to a cable box, etc.)

-----

All-- there have been a few new interesting developments which haven't yet been reflected in this thread: a new (leaked) version of the MyHD software, and a potential new card (w/software decode as opposed to hardware decode). I will update the main post of this tread soon...

[pepar]

Eiffel, do you have any comments/observations on the relative performance of these cards?

[Joe Mal.]

Originally posted by Eiffel
Joe-- Have you looked at the FAQs and sticky threads in the HDTV section of AVS forum? ... if you haven't this answers some of the basic questions about HDTV, what it is, what's available, etc.

Thanks, yea I have read over them. There are still things that aren't answered when I read over them but its more just technical questions. Nothing to concerning. But they don't cover like some of the basic things. For instance setting up an antenna (unless I missed it and I try to make sure I didn't). I hear terminology about doing different things with the antenna that I have no idea what they mean. (There was one in this thread for instance)

To answer you cable question, all the HDTV cards need to connected to antenna(es) with regular 75 Ohm coax cable (this is the same cable that is used to connect to a cable box, etc.)

Yea, that was one of my questions. So just a basic RG-6 75ohm. Not bad. Didn't know if digital needed a fatter pipe or if quality could change depending on the coax cable your using. I know you have to use a fatter cable for "digital cable" then the normal rg-6 so I wasn't sure how HD/DTV was. But if it just uses the standard cable then I guess its safe to assume the same rules of doing coax cable with analog signal as it does for digital signal when it comes to signal loss and yatta yatta.

All-- there have been a few new interesting developments which haven't yet been reflected in this thread: a new (leaked) version of the MyHD software, and a potential new card (w/software decode as opposed to hardware decode). I will update the main post of this tread soon...

Can't wait to hear about this!

[haysdb]

So just a basic RG-6 75ohm. Not bad. Didn't know if digital needed a fatter pipe or if quality could change depending on the coax cable your using. I know you have to use a fatter cable for "digital cable" then the normal rg-6 so I wasn't sure how HD/DTV was.The standard coax used for cable TV was RG59. RG6 is the "fatter pipe" coax required for digital cable and DSS. If you want to be really safe, you can use RG6 Quad Shield (QS).

David

[haysdb]

I have had a HiDTV card for a few weeks and my #1 beef is with their technical support, or rather their LACK of technical support. Just mosey on over to their forum and browse the threads and you will see threads days and over a week old with no responses, even to SERIOUS issues. I have sent email to tech support and not gotten much better response.

I don't have any experience with competing cards as this is my first HD card, but I would advise anyone considering the HiDTV to consider the tech support issues.

David

[Joe Mal.]

Thanks for the correction and information David.

[Eiffel]

Originally posted by pepar
Eiffel, do you have any comments/observations on the relative performance of these cards?

pepar, I don't have any experience with 3 of the four cards discussed in this thread... which makes it difficult to compare the performance.

This being said, from reading other posts, I wouldn't expect much difference in terms of picture quality (In the past there was a bug which impacted the quality of 1080i signals on the older cards, but this has been fixed for a while). The various tuners/demodulator solutions should have an impact on the ability to view remote stations and/or to separate adjacent stations (It's hard to be world class on these two factors at the same time!), but I'm not aware of any definite answer on this topic. Stability/reliability is also a very important concern, but I also don't have a good answer (some people with problems are very vocal, others less so; some companies support their cards through this forum, others handle it via private e-mail or a separate forum; I also don't know how many of each cards are out there...)

'hope this helps.

[pepar]

Originally posted by Eiffel
pepar, I don't have any experience with 3 of the four cards discussed in this thread... which makes it difficult to compare the performance.

This being said, from reading other posts, I wouldn't expect much difference in terms of picture quality . . . 'hope this helps.

Yes, Eiffel, it does. Thank you.

[atwistedmind]

Does the Hipix have any PCI audio support or is it something that can be done in the future? What are some options for HD and NTSC recording and PVR function on the same HTPC?

[occammd]

Just wanted to say that I had been lurking this thread and went out and purchased the MyHD card last week. I made this decision mainly because of Cliff's support at digital connection. The new beta driver with OSD is fantastic and he and Kei are very responsive.
Like many, I wondered about the antenna. Through a lot of research I ended up with a channel master 3018 mid UHF/VHF and a channel master rotator. I looked at the radio shack rotator, but it is packaged along with this horrible push and spin compass, the channel master came with the IR remote standard and operates on STB codes. By the way, to my surprise Lowe's carries channel master products, I just went down the street and picked it all up even though their web site said they where out of stock. Definitely get the channle master rotatot cable instead of radio shack, much better jacket.

Anyway, the antenna comes with the 300 to 75 ohm transformer and I ran this to 100 ft of RG-6 without a pre-amp. I now get every HD channel available in my area and I have the antenna on my porch (total of 35 ft) to make it easier to work with. I may get more stations when I pre-amp it and place it on the roof with a total height of 50 ft.
I actually didn't ned the rotator, one fixed UHF/VHF and another fixed UHF would have done it, but who wants to climb up 50 ft when a hurricane comes through to re-aim it?

Anyway, plugged into the MyHD and this thing works great, very little problems operating with XP. Record functions are nice and the picture is fantastic. Digital connection has been great and the release of new drivers show's MIT's commitment to making this an ultimate system, they are listening and that was what matters. Besides, at $299, what a deal!

I'm very happy with it and wrote the above antenna stuff cause I figured if you are thinking about doing this, you may have wanted a little review. By the way, I found the gain requirements on the antennaweb.org to be a bit low.

Good Luck,
Ray

[Eiffel]

Originally posted by atwistedmind
Does the Hipix have any PCI audio support or is it something that can be done in the future? What are some options for HD and NTSC recording and PVR function on the same HTPC?

I can't talk about the future, but currently the HiPix cannot send (analog) NTSC audio over the PCI bus. It can send AC-3 signals via the PCI bus, so that you can connect your receiver to the sound card S/PDIF out and listen to digital stations this way.

To get NTSC audio, you need to use either the internal or external audio connectors (the internal connector can connect to sound cards which have an internal connector, which many pro sound cards lack, unfortunately).


Regarding the other part of your question, it depends on what you mean by 'PVR'. If all you're interested in is a digital VCR (no instant replay, no fancy programing guide), the HiDTV and MyHD provide an all-in-one solution.

If you want 'instant replay', the AccessDTV card is the only single box HDTV solution. You will need to add an Analog TV card with instant replay features for NTSC programming (ATI All-in-one, or a standalone TV card -which might also give you Dscaler compatibility).

Finally, if you want the a 'smart' programing guide (and smart recording features), there is no HDTV solution at the time... there are some NTSC solutions which either exist or are looking very promising (sageTV)...

I hope this helps.

Eiffel

[Carey P]

Ray,

Thanks for that post (and thanks Eiffel for this great thread!). For the exact same reasons as you, I just ordered the MyHD card tonight! I want to be ready when the local stations go online here next month. I also asked for faster shipping, just in case there was any chance of picking up PHX ABC for SB on Sunday, but who am I kidding at that distance :rolleyes:. Anyway, it may be possible as I know someone else just up the road can do it. I hope they actually ship it out tomorrow :D.

Thanks for pointing that out about Lowe's. They are opening up their store here tomorrow, so I'll check them out. I'll be needing a rotator in my location. I'll be sticking to a UHF antenna only, with a preamp.

Without direct experience it is hard to tell, but it would be nice to be able to scale the HD signal to my projectors 1024x768 panel (vertically stretched 16:9 AR) so that my Panamorph can squeeze it back to fit my 16:9 screen. This is how I watch my DVD's. Otherwise, I'll just have to use the projectors native HDTV modes and loose the extra pixels.

Carey

[atwistedmind]

Eiffel thanks for the post . I just ordered MyHD card, I believe it has great support and is being updated to our need consistently. As for PVR my main concern is being able to record digitally both analog and hidef ( to hardrive). I have a HiPix card now and I am using the M Audio 24/96 and it does not have internal audio input so I am forced to run external patch cord. The interface for the HiPix does not thrill me also it looks like it was created in the 70's. I am hoping that the MyHD will help me solve some of these problems.

[haysdb]

I am seriously considering buying a MyHD card. I have a HiDTV card but their support is so bad I'm about ready to give up. It's not that the HiDTV card isn't good - I've had some issues, but nothing MyHD users haven't reported as well, it's just that I can't get any freakin' help or answers. It's so frustrating I want to pull my hair out. I'm pretty sure that as soon as I give DC my credit card number though, that PC-DTV will release new versions of the driver and Viewer that will address most of my concerns, so I'm trying to be patient. I just don't understand how a company can release a product and then not support it.

David

[jkaiser]

"As for PVR my main concern is being able to record digitally both analog and hidef ( to hardrive). "

I have no experience for the other cards, but for the MyHD analog (NTSC) recording requires a lot of horsepower, probably 2.0 or better for 640 x 480. PCI (wave) is also prone to lipsync issues in both real time and recording. Cable is better. Unfortunately, for NTSC you need to send the audio to the sound card.

Other than that I am very happy with the card.

[Eiffel]

Originally posted by Carey P

Without direct experience it is hard to tell, but it would be nice to be able to scale the HD signal to my projectors 1024x768 panel (vertically stretched 16:9 AR) so that my Panamorph can squeeze it back to fit my 16:9 screen. This is how I watch my DVD's. Otherwise, I'll just have to use the projectors native HDTV modes and loose the extra pixels.


Carey, what you're seeking to do should work: all HD cards can scale their output to 1024x768, and they all seem to have some aspect ratio options to indicate if the source is letterboxed or has curtains...

Let us know how it turns out, as I'm sure others are interested in the results

Eiffel

[haysdb]

I just placed an order for a MyHD card from Digital Connection. I am returning the HiDTV card to PC-DTV. I hope this is an "upgrade". There are some features I'm sure I will miss, such as the USB remote, and maybe something else, although I'm struggling to think of what. I would say background recording, but the new MyHD beta has that. It'd be pretty hard for the MyHD to dissapoint me in any other way relative to the HiDTV, assuming programs can be scheduled to record and that they do in fact record and play back.

MyHD Question: I keep seeing references to multiple files being used to record HD. Is it not possible to record a show as a single file on an NTFS volume? This was a nice feature of the HiDTV card. Granted, the files were HUGE, ~9GB, but it made them easy to manage.

David

[Cliff Watson]

"MyHD Question: I keep seeing references to multiple files being used to record HD. Is it not possible to record a show as a single file on an NTFS volume? This was a nice feature of the HiDTV card. Granted, the files were HUGE, ~9GB, but it made them easy to manage."

You have the option to set any file size. I use one gig files only because they are easy to edit.

[Eiffel]

David,

Once you get your new card, and have some time to experiment with it, could you post your reactions?.. Few people have experience with both cards (and no vested interest either way) and I'm sure many are interested in your findings.

Thanks

Eiffel

[djg]

Of interest to me is which, if any, of these cards are known to work in dual processor computers. I've searched and only found a reference in the MyHD 1.55 thread from DarthJedi about his trouble in a dual machine. I have been using an accessDTV in a Tyan TigerMPX motherboard workstation with dual Athlon XP2400's with reasonably good success although it occasionally locks up when changing channels, particularly if timeshifting. This sounds similar to DarthJedi's problem. Window Task Manager is unable to close the app and a hard reset is the only fix. I have no trouble with scheduled recordings thru Titan TV (although with the annoying script error). I have now moved that card into a new nForce2 motherboard HTPC connected to a Mits 55511 and it does seem to have fixed the lockups. Both are running WinXP Pro with ATI graphics cards. The dual machine has both an ATI 8500DV and 7500PCI driving 3 monitors. In addition, I've got a Pinnacle DC1000 video capture card. The aDTV was installed after the machine had been used for about 6 months so I am thinking some of my problem may be fixed with a fresh install.

I am in the market for a new card for the dual cpu pc and would appreciate any feedback or definitive information re problems in dual machines with Hipix, MyHD, or HiDTV cards.

Thanks,

[Paran]

I live in Ontario Canada, and to my knowledge there aren't any HD Channels offered over the air.
So as it stands now my only choice for HDTV is to use my local cable provider (Rogers cable). From what I gather from reading all the info on these forums, these HDTV Cards cannot decode the HD signal from the cable company, so I will have to use the set-top decodeing box from Rogers Cable.
My question is this:
Will all the fuctions of these cards still work correctly (eg. PVR, etc.)
and will these cards provide any advantage over using a standard TV Tuner card and Dscaler?

I will be using an LCD Projector from Epson (model 600P) with a native resolution of 800 x 600.

Please feel free to correct any mistakes or misunderstandings as I am new to this whole HTPC thing.

[pepar]

I'm not the expert here, but I'll give it a shot. These HD cards are to receive and display, and record and play, over-the-air (OTA) SD & HD TV signals. They have no HD input compatible with any HD output from a set top box (STB) and therefore cannot record OTA HD ignals from external sources. So, without OTA HD signals, a standard TV tuner card will get you everything the HD cards will for less money.

Originally posted by Paran
I live in Ontario Canada, and to my knowledge there aren't any HD Channels offered over the air.
So as it stands now my only choice for HDTV is to use my local cable provider (Rogers cable). From what I gather from reading all the info on these forums, these HDTV Cards cannot decode the HD signal from the cable company, so I will have to use the set-top decodeing box from Rogers Cable.
My question is this:
Will all the fuctions of these cards still work correctly (eg. PVR, etc.)
and will these cards provide any advantage over using a standard TV Tuner card and Dscaler?

I will be using an LCD Projector from Epson (model 600P) with a native resolution of 800 x 600.

Please feel free to correct any mistakes or misunderstandings as I am new to this whole HTPC thing.

[Joe Mal.]

So if you get HD through your cable provider with a STB then you can have a line coming out from the STB into any tuner card? and it can record the hd image? (You have to use Dscaler to do this?, You have to control the channels via the STB?) Please help.

I have an ATI TV Wonder VE and would like to record HD.

[Eiffel]

Unfortunately, I believe pepar is correct. Unless you either have a firewire connector on the cable box, or your cable provider sends an 8VSB unencrypted signal (unlikely), there is no way to make good use of an HDTV PC card.

There is no solution at the moment to have a PC record or scale an HD signal in analog RGBHV, YPrPb or digital DVI format. You can still use DScaler, or your analog capture card to work with a S-Video or composite signal, but that's not HD (resolution will be ~480i/p max)

IF, and that's a big 'if', HDTV PC cards manufacturers release QAM drivers (which is a possibility for both the AccessDTV and MyHD cards), the situation may change (only) for unencrypted channels ... in the meantime, there is no good solution

[Joe Mal.]

As I thought. Thanks Eiffel. Will continue to wait for QAM support, I don't know to much about setting up the correct type of antenna for OTA.

[sasha_j]

Originally posted by Joe Mal.
I don't know to much about setting up the correct type of antenna for OTA.

You don't need to know anything about antenna selection and installation to enjoy OTA HD. Assuming it is available in your area, I'd recommend setting up an appointment with a reputable antenna installer to do a site survey with a spectrum analyzer. The installer will use the spectrum analyzer to sniff out the airwaves at your location and then will be in a good position to recommend an installed solution to you. If the installer is in a good mood, the site survey might even be free.

IMO, a quality antenna install is invaluable and pays for itself quickly, especially when you consider how much you pay for cable in a year. Mine cost $850 for 2 antennas, 7 drops and a whole house distribution system. I basically had 2 guys working and sweating at my house for the entire day. It was worth every penny, as I now have a rock-solid system, essentially studio grade, and no monthly fees, which I love. Those few things (like the Sopranos) I can't watch from OTA, I just get the DVD from Netflix.

Cut the cord, go wireless!!

[haysdb]

I tried finding someone who knew something about antennas. I didn't have much (in fact, ANY) success. Good luck.

David

[Chuck_McDevitt]

I have a dual-CPU system (Dual P-III 1Ghz, 768Mb Memory), and for me,
the MyHD application hangs on a regular basis.

When it hangs, there is no way to kill the MyHD application.
TaskManager cant do it, logoff cant do it.
Only a system shutdown or hard reset can cure the problem.

The support people seem uninterested in this problem, as it "Only happens to some people".

So, I am in the same boat... If anyone knows of an HDTV card that works reliably in a dual CPU system, let me know.


Originally posted by djg
Of interest to me is which, if any, of these cards are known to work in dual processor computers. I've searched and only found a reference in the MyHD 1.55 thread from DarthJedi about his trouble in a dual machine. I have been using an accessDTV in a Tyan TigerMPX motherboard workstation with dual Athlon XP2400's with reasonably good success although it occasionally locks up when changing channels, particularly if timeshifting. This sounds similar to DarthJedi's problem. Window Task Manager is unable to close the app and a hard reset is the only fix. I have no trouble with scheduled recordings thru Titan TV (although with the annoying script error). I have now moved that card into a new nForce2 motherboard HTPC connected to a Mits 55511 and it does seem to have fixed the lockups. Both are running WinXP Pro with ATI graphics cards. The dual machine has both an ATI 8500DV and 7500PCI driving 3 monitors. In addition, I've got a Pinnacle DC1000 video capture card. The aDTV was installed after the machine had been used for about 6 months so I am thinking some of my problem may be fixed with a fresh install.

I am in the market for a new card for the dual cpu pc and would appreciate any feedback or definitive information re problems in dual machines with Hipix, MyHD, or HiDTV cards.

Thanks,

[danielbrown]

Does anyone know if there is a dealer in the Dallas area that sells the MyHD MDP-100?

[danielbrown]

Does anyone know if there is a dealer in the Dallas area that sells the MyHD MDP-100?

[Cliff Watson]

Chuck,

Why do you keep a card that you can't get to work in your system? Why not return it and add about 25% to the refund for one of the other cards on the market?

[jkaiser]

While I fully agree with Cliff, Come-on Chuck - "I have a dual-CPU system (Dual P-III 1Ghz, 768Mb Memory)," - hardly a standard setup any more (at least not HTPC). In a 2 or more CPU configuration, I think you are only asking for trouble in this case. All the CPUs have to share the same PCI bus, thus constantly interupting the flow of data on the bus. I have never seen any guarantee that this card would work on a system like yours.

[haysdb]

Why not return it and add about 25% to the refund for one of the other cards on the market?What a clever plug. ;)

David

[Carey P]

Hey Eiffel!

Just installed the MyHD card. Installed the recommended drivers (.6) and software on my Win XP HTPC and it went without a hitch. It even installed on it's own IRQ (5). Tuned in our one local PBS DTV station and got an 85% signal - Boy does it look good!! :D :D. First time I've seen HD on my 110" screen. Wow!!

I've got it set to 1024 x 768P with AR at 4:3 and Full. This gives me my full panel LCD and then I compress this back to 16:9 with the Panamorph. Only has a narrow dark band at top, but nothing real noticeable. If I set it to 720p it fills the 16:9 screen perfect, but I think there are more scaling artifacts in this mode.

So I can apparently get around the projector's internal rescaling at HD resolutions by scaling it in software so I can use the full LCD (4:3) panels. This is good news :).

I also found setting the audio out to Wave, I can leave the coax digital connected to the Audiphile 24/96 card (as it is for playing DVD's) and either choose SPDIF or Dolby Surround. The former gives me AC3 and the latter, PCM, which actually is louder and better sounding, at least on this PBS channel.

Can't wait for live networks next month. I think I have a good chance of picking them up. PHX is apparently impossible from where I am. No SB in HD for me :(.

It's true that analog channels look better through my WinTV (using SVideo from my VCR) and using DScaler, than using the MyHD, but I'll have to test it further.

I didn't want to give up another COM port and I already have COM 1 assigned to my IrMan for Girder. I don't see why I can't use it instead for the remote. But so far, I have not gotten the remote for MyHD working. Do I really need two IR receivers connected at the same time? This doesn't seem right. I may have to put MyHD keyboard commands into Girder and program my remote for them.

Carey

[Eiffel]

Carey,

Good to read that you got almost everything working, and welcome to the HDTV world!

Regarding the COM port issue, I agree with you about not using two receivers (It was one of the reasons I picked another card... not paying for an extra remote receiver was a plus!)... Some people on this board (Bob Sorel, IIRC) control their MyHD via Girder/IRman, so you might be able to get their CCF/GML to save time

... and sorry about the Superbowl!

Eiffel

[HDorBust]

Originally posted by mlaverty
Can anyone tell me if the MIT MyHD MDP-100 card's remote has a "skip" ahead feature like a Replay PVR that skips ahead 30 seconds? I've seen references to other cards that have this, but no the MyHD card.

And great buyers guide info - thanks!

- Mark

It has two skip aheads, the one controlled by the misnamed >> (fast forward on the remote) is configurable. The other requires that you hit the mouse in the slider window showing the progress and seems to skip the slider a fixed distance on the display.

-Dave

[HDorBust]

I found the following thread for the MyHD beta:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=216405

p.s. It would be nice if the skip ahead and skip back could be independently programmed with different time values. I currently have skip-ahead for 30 seconds, but I would prefer skip-back of 10 or 15 seconds, so if the skip-ahead overshoots, I don't have skip-back and wait up to 29 seconds. I don't know if the beta does this.

Thanks,
-Dave

[Cliff Watson]

Originally posted by HDorBust
So where is this "beta" software for MyHD? If it can do recording without display I would really like it!

p.s. It would be nice if the skip ahead and skip back could be independently programmed with different time values. I currently have skip-ahead for 30 seconds, but I would prefer skip-back of 10 or 15 seconds, so if the skip-ahead overshoots, I don't have skip-back and wait up to 29 seconds.

Thanks,
-Dave

You should read the MyHD beta thread and you would know that beta v1.56 has that and much more.

[traveller7]

Originally posted by Cliff Watson
Chuck,

Why do you keep a card that you can't get to work in your system? Why not return it and add about 25% to the refund for one of the other cards on the market?

Because it is unlikely they will work any better in a dually and he already owns the cheapest of the hardware based cards. These days it is cheaper to replace the computer(MB,RAM,Proc) and keep the HDTV card.

btw: Anyone try any of these cards while running HyperThreading?

[bmoore0]

You should read the MyHD beta thread and you would know that beta v1.56 has that and much more.

Amen brother... When I bought the MyHD card a few months ago I wasn't thrilled with some of the limitations in the software.

The new beta is *very* cool... used it to watch the Super Bowl!

[ConradC]

Chuck and Dave,

I have a Dual setup also. Although I do not have a HD tuner card yet, I do have a suggestion. I sometimes have problems with programs that are not multi-threaded. I have seen improvements when I change the processor affinity to just one of the processors. Choose CPU 0 for the application. I choose CPU 0 because my systems seems to run better when the application is on CPU 0 instead of CPU 1. Give it a try. Let me know if it helps because I plan on purchasing a HD tuner card soon! :D

Conrad

[jkaiser]

Conrad, I am not sure of the cause, but if you read the MyHD card Trouble shooting thread, you will see another member has had issues with a dual processor CPU and MyHD. This may not relate to all HD cards, but just something to keep in mind.

[ConradC]

Jkaiser,

Wow! Lot's of pages. :D I zoomed through that 45 page thread. It seems like it locks up within the MyHD application. It could also be the driver like a few said. I'd really give it a try with changing the affinity of the MyHD application. No one posted about trying that yet. It would be nice if that was all you have to do to fix the problem. :D

[bhiga]

If changing the affinity doesn't help, you could also edit your boot.ini (assuming you're in 2000/XP) and add another startup entry with the /ONECPU option which will start the Multiprocessor Kernel but only use one CPU. At least it'll provide a better clue as to whether multiprocessor is the culprit.

Darnit - I gotta stop reading this forum - I keep wanting more and more things to put into my HTPC!

[djg]

ConradC, I have tried setting the cpu affinity to either processor and it didn't help.

bhiga, I'll try your boot.ini (I'm using XP) suggestion this weekend and see if that works any better.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[Stefan]

Has anyone tried the HiDTV card in a dual processor system yet? I have one that I'm planning on installing in my I860/dual Xeon system. I haven't installed it yet as the weather hasn't been great recently and I haven't put my antenna up yet. I'm waiting to do that before I install my card. Anyway, I plan on trying the card in one of my 66Mhz PCI slots as it supposedly supports this. Anybody already using this card in a dual processor system or in a 66Mhz PCI slot? If so what type of system is it and what kind of issues have you experienced?

[djg]

I tried bhiga's suggestion to modify the boot.ini to force the PC to use only one cpu. Whereas setting the processor affinity in dual cpu mode helped the stability issue with accessDTV card but didn't cure it, the PC operating on a single cpu was definitely more stable. I was able to change channels repeatedly while timeshifting and couldn't get it to lock up, although it would pause for a considerable period before responding, depending on the signal strength of the channel I was changing to. I noted the card responded faster when changing channels in non-TS mode when operating on the one cpu. I have now put the adtv in a Gigabyte KT400 motherboard PC and it works stably there.

I received my order of a MyHD card from DC last week and tried that in the dual cpu PC - using the 1.56 beta driver it also behaved poorly in dual cpu mode. If it did stop responding, however, I was able to kill the process but it would not restart correctly unless I rebooted. On one occasion it froze the PC where a hard reset was required. It also was slower to respond when changing channels. It's now in a nForce2 motherboard PC and it works fine there.

So I'm ready to conclude there is a basic incompatibility with the HDTV cards and dual cpu PC's, at least these two brands under WinXP. I too would also be curious if the HiDTV suffers the similar problems.

[shah8]

These things do work on dual cpu (Xeon)computers. I know somebody who got them to work well...


Darius

[rungabic]

Originally posted by djg
So I'm ready to conclude there is a basic incompatibility with the HDTV cards and dual cpu PC's, at least these two brands under WinXP. I too would also be curious if the HiDTV suffers the similar problems.


My MyHD card hangs fairly regularly on my *single* processor system, and when it hangs, 99% of the time there's absolutely no way to terminate the application. In addition, it's causes my system to reboot a few times. That all being said, it generally works OK, but it seems to freeze up sometimes when I try to play files or sometimes when tuning to a station. I'm not so sure that the dual processor thing is the culprit here...

===============
XP Pro
DirectX 8.1
Catalyst 2.5
Asus CUSL2 w/ PIII 866

[dbochniak]

Eiffel,
Incredible post, really. Thanks so much.

I noticed that you list a PIII 800 MHz as the minimum for the MyHD card, while digitalconnection lists a PII 400 MHz. Any idea as to which is more accurate?

Successful MyHD users, what is the minimum successful chip/RAM setup you have used?

[Stefan]

Does anyone here have any experience with any of these HDTV tuner cards in a single processor Hyperthreaded P4 system? The reason I ask is this could provide us with some insight into whether there are issue specifically with SMP systems that are really caused by the fact that the system is a multiprocessor system of if in fact they are caused by other things. If it's an SMP problem then it would likely also apply to a Hyperthreaded single processor system as well because hyperthreading works by dividing the physical processor up into multiple logical processors and making it function as if it were multiple processors.

This also raises another issue. If there are such issues what are HDTV card makers going to do when Hyperthreading becomes more and more common in mainstream processors? It would seem to me that eventually they're going to have to fix these issues if they want their cards to work in newer systems that feture hyperthreading.

[Eiffel]

dbochniak,

Thanks for the good words, gald you're finding this thread useful!

I'll defer to DigitalConnection (Cliff Watson/Kei Clarke on this forum) regarding minimum specs, as they should know best what is needed for the MyHD card. The difference may be due to the minimum specs for HDTV (400 Mhz should be enough) vs. Analog capture (much more processor intensive, especially for good results)

[Karyk]

I have questions in two areas which I haven't seen the answer to (although I'll admit only reading about 4 pages of this thread).

1. How do these cards handle multiple harddrives? If you want to use the space on more than one harddrive, do you need to combine two drives via RAID so they appear as one drive?

2. What's the deal with DVD playback? Do these cards address that at all (assuming your HTPC has a DVD player), and if so, do you need a more powerful CPU?

[haysdb]

1. How do these cards handle multiple harddrives? If you want to use the space on more than one harddrive, do you need to combine two drives via RAID so they appear as one drive?

MyHD isn't able to deal with multiple volumes. It can't automatically switch to a second drive when the first one gets full.

Mating a pair of drives in a RAID 0 array is one way. That's what I did with a pair of 120GB Samsung drives. There might be a software approach to making two drives appear as one volume to Windows. I think this is called a JBOD (Just a Bunch Of Disks) array.

David

[Karyk]

I have a motherboard that will do Raid 0, but I'd either need to install it in another case or at least install a new power supply in the case since it's very noisy. Another case might be the better solution since it's a mini-tower and not terribly attractive. I have a Samsung 120 in my DTivo, so your setup is exactly what I was thinking of.

I've looked into what Windows XP can do, and wasn't impressed, but I don't recall why.

[atwistedmind]

Not to change the subject but after installing the beta, titantv button only works for a short period of time and then when you click on it nothing will happen. It wont link you to the websit from the application. I thought I read someting about this. Is thier a fix for this yet?

[pepar]

Originally posted by atwistedmind
Not to change the subject but after installing the beta, titantv button only works for a short period of time and then when you click on it nothing will happen. It wont link you to the websit from the application. I thought I read someting about this. Is thier a fix for this yet?

You should probably start a new thread for this.

[bmoore0]

Dynamic partitions in XP Pro will span, stripe, mirror...

Not sure what else you'd you'd want it to do...

[ConradC]

For those with MyHD and dual processors, I've created a thread here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=224362

I think we may have found a solution. Let's see if works. :D

[mstrange]

All,

This thread has been a great help. I am looking at purchasing the MYHD card, but had a couple of questions for group.

1. Does this card via the lastest software/driver updates support a rolling buffer (Tivo like - keep last xx mins of current channel for quick rewind)?

2. Can I watch a show while it is recording that show. Thus I can get the effect of number 1 for certain shows. Ex. NCAA Final Four I can setup to record and then start watching the recording 1 min. after it starts and just pause and rewind when I want to?

I have multiple Tivo's and I love them, but one feature I like the best is this constant buffer, especially during sports events to replay certain plays.

PS. One other question does MYHD just use Titantv.com for scheduling with no fees? I noticed that the AccessDTV has a monthly service fee for use of the schedule?

Thanks!

Mike

[mn3kgtvr4]

msstrange,

Can't answer your questions about MYHD since I don't own one, but Accessdtv does have the rolling buffer feature you describe. Accessdtv allows you to choose from 4 different online schedulers including Titantv. When they first came out with this card, they had a fee service but it's no longer offered even if someone wanted to pay them for it.

[hoxford]

Originally posted by mstrange
All,

This thread has been a great help. I am looking at purchasing the MYHD card, but had a couple of questions for group.

1. Does this card via the lastest software/driver updates support a rolling buffer (Tivo like - keep last xx mins of current channel for quick rewind)?

2. Can I watch a show while it is recording that show. Thus I can get the effect of number 1 for certain shows. Ex. NCAA Final Four I can setup to record and then start watching the recording 1 min. after it starts and just pause and rewind when I want to?

I have multiple Tivo's and I love them, but one feature I like the best is this constant buffer, especially during sports events to replay certain plays.

PS. One other question does MYHD just use Titantv.com for scheduling with no fees? I noticed that the AccessDTV has a monthly service fee for use of the schedule?

Thanks!

Mike

1 - No.
2 - Yes/No.

ps - Yes.

Think of MyHD's recording capabilities as a digital VCR. You can watch something while it's recording like with a VCR but you're watching the live broadcast, not a buffer like Tivo. Once something's recorded you can watch it and pause/ff/rew just like with a VCR. You can't record one thing while watching another -- at least not using the MyHD card. Some folks have had luck with software HD playback so in theory the card could be recording while you're watching with a software player.

[HTaylor]

Open to question to all - I've read as many threads (including the excellent doc by Eiffel), internet articles, visited all the manufacturer sites of TV PC cards, and downloaded user manauls - 'til my eyes burn. I can not find the answer to quite a very simple question. Can I connect my digital coax cable (Adelphia) - or later on a Direct TV with HDTV eliptical dish and receiver to the coax input of the PC TV card and still view all the NTSC and HD broadcast shows? I can not do OTA input with an antenae. I live in an HOA community and they only allow cable TV or Satellite dish. I have Adelphia digital cable now with their tuner (mainly to get my subscribed encrypted channels like HBO).

I am starting to decide on the parts I will need to build my HTPC (to double as my personal compter as well). The HTPC will display output to a NEC XG 750 overhead CRT projector mainly for DVDs, but I want the TV too on occasion. Any insight is appreciated. I'm leaning toward the MIT MyHD card along with a ATI Radeon 9700 or 9500 pro graphics card, and M-Audio audiophile 2496 sound card.

[Cliff Watson]

"Can I connect my digital coax cable (Adelphia) - or later on a Direct TV with HDTV eliptical dish and receiver to the coax input of the PC TV card and still view all the NTSC and HD broadcast shows? I can not do OTA input with an antenae."

None of the HDTV cards tune digital cable.

"I can not do OTA input with an antenae. I live in an HOA community and they only allow cable TV or Satellite dish."

The HOA is breaking the law. You need to search the FCC FAQ about using an antenna.

[sasha_j]

Originally posted by HTaylor
Open to question to all - I live in an HOA community and they only allow cable TV or Satellite dish. I have Adelphia digital cable now with their tuner (mainly to get my subscribed encrypted channels like HBO).


You have every right to mount an exterior antenna if you want one. I live near you, also in a HOA community (Cascades) and I have a dual stack on my roof. OTA is all I use. I know of several other Leesburg area homeowners with HOAs and antennas, so don't be put off.

Per Section 207 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996, Over-the-Air (OTA) antenna use by homeowners is allowed in almost all instances regardless of any HOA restrictions to the contrary. Most HOA's are likely not up-to-speed on this issue. Mine certainly wasn't until I took the time to educate them. See:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

I know of at least 2 local HOAs that have specifically amended their design guidelines to reflect compliance with the FCC.

Also, my experience with Adelphia is their signal is NTSC junk, let alone no HD. You can almost certainly pick up all the metro DC (and Baltimore) signals with a good roof-top system.

I use 2 of the MyHD cards and I am very happy with them. If you insist on using a loser cable provider like Adelphia, you will only be able to use the HD card with open signals. If you need help educating your HOA, just drop me a line.

[HTaylor]

Thanks for two quick replies from Sasha and Cliff. Yes, I may pursue the antenea issue with the HOA armed with FCC regs. Let me pose a new question in a different light. I actually would prefer to not have an ugly antenae on my roof if I can avoid it. Is there any way that I can take the output from the digital cable tuner box (or satellite tuner HD box) and get this output onto my overhead CRT projector - AND still get the higher resolutions I desire. Perhaps simply connecting the video out RCA jack from the tuner box into the video in on the HTPC graphics card and not get a TV tuner card at all?

[sasha_j]

Originally posted by HTaylor
I actually would prefer to not have an ugly antenna on my roof if I can avoid it.


If you set up your system to receive only digital signals, you can then use a UHF-only antenna and benefit from it's low-profile form factor. I have pics I can send you if needed. In my opinion, a quality antenna roof, mounted, is a work of art and has visual appeal.

Originally posted by HTaylor
Is there any way that I can take the output from the digital cable tuner box (or satellite tuner HD box) and get this output onto my overhead CRT projector - AND still get the higher resolutions I desire.


Garbage in, garbage out. This method will not result in a quality image, especially with Adelphia's signals.

[HTaylor]

OK, I guess I'm back to the drawing board for now with what I will eventually decide and do. However I do have to say that Adelphia digital cable here in Leesburg VA is not that bad. Then again maybe it is my Sony 53inch HD-ready rear projection taking the signal to 1080i that makes it look good. Thanks again.

[haysdb]

Harry,

"Digital Cable" is like DirecTV or DISH, which is to say (1) you need a propretary set-top box to decode the signal, and (2) "digital" doesn't necessarily imply "high definition". If your cable company does offer some HD channels, you will need an HD cable box, just as you need an HD receiver to pick up HDNet or HBOH from DirecTV.

Sasha is correct regarding your right to have an antenna, HOA bylaws notwithstanding. However, I do recommend you "consult" with your Association before putting up an outdoor antenna. I spoke with the president of my HOA before putting up my satellite dish. When presented with the facts (satellite and OTA are the ONLY ways to receive HDTV in my city), and expressing a desire to comply with the spirit of the HOA covenants, I had no trouble getting "permission" wink wink to install the dish. If he'd have said no, I'd have put it up anyway, but a little diplomacy can be a good investment.

If your cable company does not offer HD, the ONLY way you will get local channels is via an antenna. The type and location of the antenna is dependent on your promiximity to the towers. In my town, a $2.99 Radio Shack bowtie is sufficient to pick up 5 of the 6 local stations, so there is no need for a large rooftop antenna.

David

[sasha_j]

Harry,

I would like to add that once you see what OTA can deliver, I'll bet you'll see your "digital" cable service in a whole new light...........

Having a large music collection and using OTA HD with time shifting, I don't miss the sheer quantity of cable channels in anyway. In conjuntion with the 2-3 Netflix DVD's we get each week, there is more than enough quality material available for free with OTA than I have time to watch.

I simply cannot deal with watching crappy signals anymore, life's too short.

[HTaylor]

Thanks everyone for the great info. This is really my only dilemma, we do really like the HBO shows (Sopranos, 6 Feet Under, Curb Your Enthusiasm, etc.). The HBO movies of course can be dismissed as a factor as we can rent them on DVD. So I suppose my only option really is the OTA and DVD for the basement Home Theater room, and the digital cable or HD satellite upstairs on the 53 inch TV. I was hoping there was some way to watch the HBO shows on the big 8 foot screen (with quality definition as well). Oh well.

[ConradC]

Originally posted by HTaylor
Is there any way that I can take the output from the digital cable tuner box (or satellite tuner HD box) and get this output onto my overhead CRT projector - AND still get the higher resolutions I desire. Perhaps simply connecting the video out RCA jack from the tuner box into the video in on the HTPC graphics card and not get a TV tuner card at all?

Have you considered using dscaler? If you get a decent reception over digital cable, you might be content with the results. I use it with Dish.

[HTaylor]

I am going to buy the Dscaler software anyway so I'll try it and see what happens. I already have the digital cable service so nothing lost there. If it works well I'll probably then switch over to DirecTV HD so I can keep getting HBO. Thanks.

[sasha_j]

Originally posted by HTaylor
I was hoping there was some way to watch the HBO shows on the big 8 foot screen (with quality definition as well).

If you need HBO, I believe it is available in HD via DBS. So as long as you don't mind having to pay for SD channels you will not likely watch in order to get the actual service you do want, HBO HD via DBS sounds like a solution for you.

[Entropy512]

Originally posted by HTaylor
I am going to buy the Dscaler software anyway so I'll try it and see what happens. I already have the digital cable service so nothing lost there. If it works well I'll probably then switch over to DirecTV HD so I can keep getting HBO. Thanks.
Best thing about DScaler:

It's free. In fact, it's licensed under the GPL, which means that any programmer who wants to tweak the source code to the program can do so. (This is one of the reasons DScaler has become so nice.)

http://www.dscaler.org/

All you need is a capture card. There's a composite/S-Video only cap card that's popular on these boards, I don't remember the name/model, but it's apparently priced at $40 or so.

[JoelST]

"MyHD Minuses
- Minimum requirement is PIII at 800 GHz (Probably a side effect of analog capture capability)"

Eiffel,

Your Buyer's Guide is terrific for us HTPC newbies. Assuming you meant 800 MHz but is this right? Digital Connections indicates the minimum is PII at 400 MHz. I am running with a PIII at 500 MHz and do not wish to upgrade my processor at this time. Does that basically limit my choice of HDTV card to one of the other three? Or only if I try to record analog with the MyHD card?

[Eiffel]

JoelST,

Wow! I must have missed the release of the new, improved, 800G PIII! ;)

I believe (and, IIRC, Cliff confirmed) that the 800 MHz requirement is only for analog capture, so you should be fine with any of the four cards. Analog capture is likely going to choke your machine with either the HiDTV or the MyHD...

[Cliff Watson]

Originally posted by Eiffel
JoelST,

Wow! I must have missed the release of the new, improved, 800G PIII! ;)

I believe (and, IIRC, Cliff confirmed) that the 800 MHz requirement is only for analog capture, so you should be fine with any of the four cards. Analog capture is likely going to choke your machine with either the HiDTV or the MyHD...

That along with the video overlay requires much CPU power.

There was a post from someone using MyHD on a PII 233MHz PC. Of course the overlay did not update properly but he was able to watch full screen HD and record to hard drive.

[jmonier]

Quote from the manual:

For digital transport stream(ATSC) recording and playback, minimum system requirements are as follows:

CPU : Pentium-III 800MHz or faster

T tried it with a 700 MHz machine and it was marginal.

[ElvisIncognito]

This is probably very noteworthy for those considering the purchase of an ADTV card - apparently TitanTV no longer supports AccessDTV. Although some ADTV users still report being able to use it, that will likely end in April (when TitanTV switches to a new file format.)

Details can be found in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=229319

Also in that thread is additional complaints re: ADTV's unresponsiveness to support issues.

Now I'm really glad I resisted the temptation of the cool TiVo-esque features and instead went with MyHD which appears to have a much brighter future (thanks largely to our MyHD advocate right here on the forum - Cliff Watson. :))

[kevin.kelley]

Three quick questions:

Where would you suggest to buy a MYHD?
I want to put up a small roof top antenna. Does anyone use a fairly small antenna and still get great signal strength?

Can someone explain to me exactly what what a dscaler does?

[ElvisIncognito]

Originally posted by kevin.kelley
Three quick questions:

Where would you suggest to buy a MYHD?
I want to put up a small roof top antenna. Does anyone use a fairly small antenna and still get great signal strength?

Can someone explain to me exactly what what a dscaler does? If you don't need the DVI output from the upcoming MDP120 version of the MyHD, there's a power buy with DigitalConnection.com. (Many on the forum try to buy from DC whenever possible anyway, since Cliff Watson provides so much support on the forum.)

I have a Winegard PR-4400 antenna on my roof that's quite small, and the signal strength is XLNT. (It was less than $30, too.)

DScaler is a piece of (free) software that deinterlaces NTSC signals from a capture card. It's irrelelvant to HD.

[kevin.kelley]

Thanks Elvis. If I have a MyHD card, 9700 Pro and audigy platinum Ex; how do most people connect the computer to the TV, say my Pioneer Elite 51 inch. Any advice you can give me on proper hookup would be appreciated.

Right now I have a Tivo(combo directtv0, sony svhs, sony dvd storage and sony Hd100 all hooked up to receiver and TV.

[ElvisIncognito]

This is the most common method:
http://www.digitalconnection.com/spec_images/HDTV_cfg_1.gif
You can read more about this and other methods here: http://www.digitalconnection.com/Support/cliffnotes_14.htm

I have a DirecTiVo as well. I have its S-video output going into a capture card (Prolink PixelView XCapture card - $39). DScaler takes it from there and converts it from 480i to 480p. I play DVDs directly from the DVD-ROM drive for now, but I hope to buy a 200GB hard drive soon and rip my 40 (or so) favorites to the hard drive for direct one-click playback.

[Karnis]

I use a RS VU-120 (120") antenna I got on sale for $49.00....works great. They have some smaller ones as well. Not as directional as some UHF antennas and I have terrain issues with my FOX and NBC stations, so I needed a larger antenna. Be prepared to buy a UHF amplifier as well for best results. I use a Winegard UHF amp I got from www.starkelectronic.com

[kevin.kelley]

Elvis I can't find this "DVI output from the upcoming MDP120 version of the MyHD" anywhere. Do you know when it will be out. I would think I'd want this for my Pioneer TV since it has a DVI input.

Second question. How do you do this " I play DVDs directly from the DVD-ROM drive for now, but I hope to buy a 200GB hard drive soon and rip my 40 (or so) favorites to the hard drive for direct one-click playback." Will I be able to do this on my setup.

I have heard that a DVD in a PC can play DVD better than a progressive dvd palyer.????

[ElvisIncognito]

Kevin- Search for a recent post by Kei Clark. You'll find one that talsk about a power buy for the MyHD card. Details on the MDP-120 can be found in there, I believe. You caould also pm Cliff Watson who should know the answer to that.

Bob Sorel did a thread called "Ripping 101" (or something very close to that) - it's linked in the Meta FAQ and will answer all your questions about ripping DVDs to/playing from hard drive.

Yes, a PC plays DVDs with a better image than most (non-SDI) STB DVD players.

[Eiffel]

Ladies and Gents,

The first post on this thread has been updated to include information about the FusionHDTV-I card...

Any ideas and suggestions are always welcome

Eiffel

[Cliff Watson]

Eiffel,

A small correction to the FusionHDTV. If does not currently support recording to D-VHS tape.

[DAVE2]

the fusion beta software that is supposed come out soon is to offer sub channels according to dvico.

[Joe Q]

I assume the appeal of the Fusion card is it's cost and for those folks that just want to view HD on their PC?

I see that it requires a converter:
?output to component HDTV requires a VGA to Component transcoder"

Seems to me that when you add the cost of the card and the transcoder that it is about equal to a HW based card.

Joe

[Eiffel]

Joe, all of what you stated is true, although many people with front projectors, plasmas and even some RPTV (or direct view) displays don't need a transcoder.

Also, those who already use an HTPC for DVD playback have already solved the transcoder issue...

[jkaiser]

"cost of the card and the transcoder that it is about equal to a HW based card" - but if the user wants desktop and hd, they may still need to buy the transcoder.

Main push for me is those that want/need DVI and don't want to pay the $200 for the daughter card on the MyHD 120.

[Dammit!]

Any idea when the Fusion II will be released? It sounds like it will do everything I want. I use the DVI output of my radeon to my Hitachi RPTV... that should work fine with this card, right?

[rezzy]

Hey Eiffel,What is the main reason none of the current cards work on a mac? Is it an architecture issue or merely a lack of driver/software? I really need to find out how to get at least one of these cards going under os X....thanks

[DAVE2]

Dammit

last rumor was that the fusion two was coming out in may or june. It is already available in korea. There are still some bugs in the software so patience may be necessary. If you read the long fusion thread you will see how some people have problems with stutter and sound card passthrough issues.

As far as the dvi out for your RPTV, No problem. The fusion uses your video card for video. If you got all your powerstrip setup, if you needit, it should work fine dvi or VGA.

Overall I am happy with the card since HD blows me away. I can't wait for my PJ to come so I can get it on the big screen, no more viewing hd on my 17" computer monitor.

dave

[MichaelLatta]

I have spent a fair amount of time trying to get one of the vendors to provide documentation on their cards. So far, no luck. Without good specs, a Mac driver is going to be very difficult to come up with. The PCI interface should be no problem, assuming the cards can take 66Mhz bus speed.

Does anyone have access to the Fusion manufacture? If I could get hardware specs, I would be game for writing a driver, or starting an open source project to that effect if there is enough interest.

[DAVE2]

hdtf@dvico.com is divicos techsupport email. You can download thier software from thier site.

dave

[Eiffel]

rezzy,

As MichaelLatta hints at, the main reason why none of the cards is currently supported under unix, OS-X, or Mac-OS9 is the lack of drivers.

Given that the market for HDTV PC cards is already fairly small, and that the market for non-windows machine is even smaller, it may take a while.

While a pure guess, there may also be some licensing issues with the proprietary firmware which the hardware based cards rely on...

[sasha_j]

Come on folks, why try to reinvent the wheel? Why would you possibly want to use a Mac for HDTV HTPC applications? It is simply the wrong tool for the job. Nothing against Macs, mind you, but there is no Mac solution for consumer HDTV tuning/recording and I'd be surprised if there ever is. The hardware base is all closed and the market share is simply too small for manufacturers to even consider.

If you like pain and have endless hours to devote to developing and troubleshooting custom drivers, this route might be good for you. Please let us know how you make out in your endeavors.

If on the other hand, you want a real working HTPC with state-of-the-art fully digital OTA ATSC tuning/recording/playback and COTS hardware, you can have it right now using WIN2K or XP.

And don't get me started on any wintel prejudices. I'll back the reliability of my HTPC's (or any of my other WIN2K PC's) against anything else out there.

[MichaelLatta]

There is no doubt that the market is quite small in comparison. The only reason I would make the effort is that I simply prefer the Mac. I use Win2k and XP at work. The reliability is only a little lower than the Mac. The hardware variety (complexity of product development) is much higher.

Do not confuse a niche with an unviable business model. In particular in the high-end AV (or auto) market. A Mac based system with characteristic attention to detail and ease of use/installation could very well appeal to the high end of custom installers and users.

[ElvisIncognito]

This is an excellent, useful thread. Let's not hijack it into a PC vs. Mac debate. While I'm not a Mac person, I can certainly understand their desire to use their chosen platform for HT purposes.

[pepar]

Originally posted by MichaelLatta
There is no doubt that the market is quite small in comparison. The only reason I would make the effort is that I simply prefer the Mac. I use Win2k and XP at work. The reliability is only a little lower than the Mac. The hardware variety (complexity of product development) is much higher.

Do not confuse a niche with an unviable business model. In particular in the high-end AV (or auto) market. A Mac based system with characteristic attention to detail and ease of use/installation could very well appeal to the high end of custom installers and users.

Obviously, there is enough market there to support at least one billionaire.

[edmc]

From Eiffel:

"The first post on this thread has been updated to include information about the FusionHDTV-I card... "

"Any ideas and suggestions are always welcome "

> HDTV Card Buyer's Guide (V2)

> All the current cards can decode Over-The-Air (OTA) HDTV broadcast,...
> but most cable operators use encrypted or unencrypted QAM modulation instead… unfortunately.
> The MyHD and AccessDTV cards have a tuner chip which could decode unencrypted QAM signals,
> but the software doesn’t support this feature (and it is unclear if it will ever).

Probably should mention here or in the FusionHDTV-specific section that DViCo is the only
one of the five to announce support for QAM in their FusionHDTV-III card.

> (The upcoming MyHD MDP-200 should have an optional daughter card with a DVI interface, though…)

It's the MDP-120 - you correctly identify th MDP-100 follow-on as the MDP-120 elsewhere though

> All 4 cards rely on a Teralogic/Janus TL880 chipset,...

Insert "hardware-based" as you did in earlier paragraphs...

> For out of the 5 cards (the AccessDTV is the exception) have an On-Screen-Display (OSD) feature,...

"Four"

> FusionHDTV-I
> Minuses
> - Only one antenna input (all other cards, but the HiDTV, have two, allowing to connect an antenna and a cable box simultaneously)
> – To be included in Fusion-II

You got bit by vBulletin's nasty practice of trimming leading spaces...

Also, under Pluses, perhaps this is where you could place the comment about the FusionHDTV-III to support QAM64/QAM256.

[OnlyOne]

I just thought I'd bump this since its been updated recently. Seems like many people, myself included, have questions about the new MyHD and Fusion-II.

[Schlotkins]

Stupid questions-

1) I was under the impression the Fusion II had a different (ie. better)tuner than the Fusion I? Along the same lines, does anyone have a comparison of the Fusion tuner compare to the MyHD 100 tuner?
2) Does Fusion I support dscaling?

Thanks!

[pepar]

Thought it might be helpful to quote from http://www.ati.com/companyinfo/press/2003/4633.html:

"In addition to embedded VSB, QAM, NTSC, and BTSC in one device, the THEATER 310 integrated analog front-end reduces the number of intermediate frequency (IF) components that are required in a DTV"

Cards based on this chip will, seemingly, do it all for signals "in the clear."

[Eiffel]

Schlotkins

-answers

1) The Fusion II has a different tuner/demodulator than the Fusion I. the II uses a Philips/Temic solution while the I has an integrated Sony tuner/demod... Regarding which is better, it depends: the I is very slightly more sensitive (my experience, and confirmed by people in the know), but the II has 2 antenna inputs...

I presume that the II's tuner is comparable to the MyHD 100 (they use the same chips, IIRC)... but I can't comment on the I vs MyHD 120, which could be your next logical.

2) The F-I does not support dscaling (the Sony tuner is not recognized by dScaler, and there is no alternative video input)

--
pepar, are you aware of any computer cards based on this chip set? I haven't seen anything, and it seems that the Theater310 is aimed at set-top boxes...

[pepar]

Originally posted by Eiffel
pepar, are you aware of any computer cards based on this chip set? I haven't seen anything, and it seems that the Theater310 is aimed at set-top boxes...

Eiffel,

All of the other similar ATI chips - Theater 100 and Theater 200 - have been used in ATI's All-In-Wonder cards. The 200 is used in their current crop of AIWs - 9000 Pro, 9700 Pro and 9800 Pro. My best guess is that the 310 will debut in their next round of AIWs, but I haven't heard any news/rumors of when that might be. I'm sure they'd sell it to a STB maker, but I don't think it's happened before . .

Jeff

[Schlotkins]

Eiffel-

That's for the information. I'm basically going to be using a 240t as my computer monitor and my TV starting in mid-August... just OTA, so I really only need 1 input. The MyHD 120 tuner seems to be better than the MyHD-100's tuner by a bit, but since I'll be using DVI, I'm not sure the extra $200+ dollars over the fusion I solution is really worth it. According to antennaweb, all the channels are either yellow or dark green anyway.

Thanks again,

Chris

[gbb123]

I am currently planning on building an HDTV computer, but I need to know if the MyHD card will be able to support the DirectV(satelite) HD signal. Ive been doing quite abit of reading on this board and elsewhere and I have found that aparently the card will only support signals through a regular antenna or through cable. Can you explain very clearly what I need to do to make the HD signal through the Satelite DirectV work with the system I am building?

I will be using the MyHD daughter board's DVI conector's to connect a Samsung 240T (24 inch LCD). I dont know if this matters. Im not a hardcore HD expert but aparently I read that I need to demodulate the signal or somthing to make it work because of what you have stated about the 8psk modulation.

here is the specs of what I am building:

-Case: Cooler Master ATC-620C-BX1(silver)

http://www.coolermaster.com/case/p620.htm

-Motherboard: MSI K7N2Delta-L(nvidia Nforce Ultra 400 chipset supporting true 400 MHZ FSB)

http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=13-130-419-02.JPG/13-130-419-03.JPG/13-130-419-01.JPG/13-130-419-04.JPG

-CPU: Athlon XP 3200(400MHZ FSB)

http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=19-103-391-01.JPG

-Memory: 2 X 512 MB (1 gig total) Corsair PC 3200(400MHZ FSB) dual channel DDR memory :)

http://www.corsairmemory.com/main/products/specs/twinx1024-3200ll.pdf

http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=20-145-435-04.JPG/20-145-435-03.JPG

-Hard drive: Maxtor 200 Gigabyte 8MB cache 7200 rpm drive

http://www.maxtor.com/en/products/ata/desktop/diamondmax_plus_9/index.htm

-DVD/DVD+R/RW: Sony DVD+R/RW model DW-u10A-BK

http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=27-131-209-06.JPG/27-131-209-05.JPG/27-131-209-02.JPG/27-131-209-03.JPG

-Sound Card: M-Audio "Revolution"

http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=29-121-101-05.JPG/29-121-101-06.JPG/29-121-101-07.jpg/29-121-101-04.JPG

-Speakers: nothin but the best ;) Klipsch 5.1 digital dream system and floor stands

http://www.klipsch.com/products/productdetail.asp?id=568&line=Promedia

http://store.klipsch.com/details.asp?ProdID=5

[pepar]

Originally posted by gbb123
I am currently planning on building an HDTV computer, but I need to know if the MyHD card will be able to support the DirectV(satelite) HD signal. Ive been doing quite abit of reading on this board and elsewhere and I have found that aparently the card will only support signals through a regular antenna or through cable. Can you explain very clearly what I need to do to make the HD signal through the Satelite DirectV work with the system I am building?

I will be using the MyHD daughter board's DVI conector's to connect a Samsung 240T (24 inch LCD). I dont know if this matters. Im not a hardcore HD expert but aparently I read that I need to demodulate the signal or somthing to make it work because of what you have stated about the 8psk modulation.

here is the specs of what I am building:

-Case: Cooler Master ATC-620C-BX1(silver)

http://www.coolermaster.com/case/p620.htm

-Motherboard: MSI K7N2Delta-L(nvidia Nforce Ultra 400 chipset supporting true 400 MHZ FSB)

http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=13-130-419-02.JPG/13-130-419-03.JPG/13-130-419-01.JPG/13-130-419-04.JPG

-CPU: Athlon XP 3200(400MHZ FSB)

http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=19-103-391-01.JPG

-Memory: 2 X 512 MB (1 gig total) Corsair PC 3200(400MHZ FSB) dual channel DDR memory :)

http://www.corsairmemory.com/main/products/specs/twinx1024-3200ll.pdf

http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=20-145-435-04.JPG/20-145-435-03.JPG

-Hard drive: Maxtor 200 Gigabyte 8MB cache 7200 rpm drive

http://www.maxtor.com/en/products/ata/desktop/diamondmax_plus_9/index.htm

-DVD/DVD+R/RW: Sony DVD+R/RW model DW-u10A-BK

http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=27-131-209-06.JPG/27-131-209-05.JPG/27-131-209-02.JPG/27-131-209-03.JPG

-Sound Card: M-Audio "Revolution"

http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=29-121-101-05.JPG/29-121-101-06.JPG/29-121-101-07.jpg/29-121-101-04.JPG

-Speakers: nothin but the best ;) Klipsch 5.1 digital dream system and floor stands

http://www.klipsch.com/products/productdetail.asp?id=568&line=Promedia

http://store.klipsch.com/details.asp?ProdID=5

You should start a new thread with this . . .

[shinoSetsuna]

hi all... ok, i've been sitting on the fence waiting for a clear winner to be declared for HD decoding in my HTpc, but it doesn't seem to be getting any clearer. after reading this entire thread, i am still unsure which card is most suited for my particular setup, and if anyone could perhaps comment it would be very appreciated...

i use a NEC LT240 projector in my setup, which allows for a 1024x768 image (Panamorph's are not an option in my setup as we play too much 4:3 console games!)... as far as i can understand from reading here, the Fusion family of cards will produce their output directly through my normal HD15/VGA connection that is already hooked up to my projector, the same way i already view DVD media via ZoomPlayer, whereas the MyHD offering either needs its own VGA connection or the use of a "loopback" cable... the Fusion card sounds more an integrated solution for the HTpc, at least for keeping the HTpc as a single-source device (video/sound all being output w/ no need for changing inputs on receivers, etc.)... i am leaning towards the Fusion offering at the moment, but am still unsure...

since my projetor is limited to 1024x768 resolution (and has no 'DVI' connections at all!), which card would be more appropriate for producing/scaling the HD signal to my XGA device? also, do both cards produce 5.1 digital sound that can be output via my soundcard (M-Audio Revo connected to my receiver via SPDIF)? i prefer not to have to change inputs on my receiver when switching between DVD and HD playback.

sorry to be so long-breezed w/ my questions, any that can offer some insight would be very appreciated... i'd love to get a HD solution ordered today..!

[trbarry]

All else being equal I'm still a fan of cards with a built-in decoder that takes the load of the CPU and system bus, like the HiDTV & MyHD cards.

- Tom

[Eiffel]

shinoSetsuna,

All the current HD cards will give you some very good results at 1024*768. The Fusion and MyHD (among others) are also all able to output 5.1 DD sound (when available, which is not very often!) via your soundcard SPDIF... so this won't be the deciding factor.

Some additional considerations you might want to include are how important is it to scale analog tv (the Fusion-II is d-scaler compatible and probably better with NTSC than the myHD), what video card/processor combination you have (the Fusion cards are more demanding), whether you want a proven solution (myHD) or something that has good potential, costs less, but is currently behind in terms of key features (Fusion)... either way, there are some happy customers, so you won't be making a wrong decision...

[shinoSetsuna]

Eiffel, thx very much for your reply..! i am not too concerned about NTSC television, it seems too much a struggle to get NTSC to look decent at such large screen sizes (110" and higher), i'd rather concentrate on getting spectacular HDtv and DVD playback out of my HTpc!

ok, i see there is more trust here overall for the myHD product, my only concern regarding this card is the need to use a 'loopback' cable setup between it and my VGA adapter (Radeon 9500)... in the past, going back to the era of Voodoo2 cards in gaming PC's, being forced to use loopback cables invariably seemed to detract from the VGA signal clarity in my eyes; there was always a discernable difference in the quality of my VGA signal after it was forced to 'loopback' through another card. is this the case w/ the myHD card, has there been any testing or literature regarding the path of the signal through the card?

my projector does have dual VGA inputs, but i have already invested quite a bit of money in my current single stretch VGA cabling (from SynergisticResearch) and i am hesitant to break that chain (also, as i wrote above, i really don't want to have to switch inputs when going from the HTpc to HD viewing unless absolutely necessary!)...

thanks to you all for the input, as it gets later in the day i think perhaps i won't be able to get a card ordered for delivery tomorrow... so many issues to consider, so little time in the day..!

[sasha_j]

I use loopback on MyHD and it works great for me, no visible degradation. I run 1280x720 @ 60 Hz to my 50" Samsung DLP. I've tried it direct and can't tell the difference.

If you are really concerned about it, run dual VGAs to your projector and do switching there.

[dlarsen]

I have found the loopthru of the MyHD (and AccessDTV and HiPix) to unacceptably degrade the VGA signal. How much will depend upon how much bandwidth you are trying to pass, (resolution/refresh rate) the quality of the rest of you display chain, and how picky you are. Note- the problem isn’t with the cable per se, but rather the dual stage pi filter on both sides of the analog mux and the on-board analog mux itself. I think the quality of the MyHD cable is the best of the three cards.

Fortunately, the problem can mostly be eliminated by using a higher quality external mux. I use the Kramer VP-211N and am most pleased with its performance. Of course, if you have a display with DVI, the new HD120 with DVI passthru should eliminate the problem as well.

Dave

[rockytt]

Originally posted by gbb123
I am currently planning on building an HDTV computer, but I need to know if the MyHD card will be able to support the DirectV(satelite) HD signal. Ive been doing quite abit of reading on this board and elsewhere and I have found that aparently the card will only support signals through a regular antenna or through cable. Can you explain very clearly what I need to do to make the HD signal through the Satelite DirectV work with the system I am building?



Currently the ONLY way (someone will correct me if I'm wrong...) to get DirecTv HD signals into a HTPC is to purchase an RCA DTC-100 and have it modified with a firewire output. This runs between $1000 and $1500 but the beauty of this is that you don't even need an HD tuner card then. Windows XP recognizes the modified DTC-100 as a JVC digital VCR and you can capture the files directly on your PC without any tuner card at all! You would of course need a PCI firewire board...
This gets asked and answered about every week or so, so I won't go into too much detail here. The thing people often forget is that the reason the HD cards work is that they have TUNER built in to capture an 8VSB modulated signal-which pretty much limit you to over-the-air broadcasts. Cable (typically) uses a different signal which (we hope and pray) will be supported by future HD cards. No HD card has a satellite TUNER built in (nor is it likely) much less a tuner that would decode the HD satellite feed.

[Eiffel]

I concur with Dave (dlarsen), the loopthru does cause some signal degradation at high resolutions (ringing starting around XGA resolutions in my system).

The easiest workaround is to not use the loopthru, and have two cable runs to the display device (I'm actually using a Kramer VP-222 -A/B switch+distribution amplifier- which is a very good alternative for a reasonable price)

[gbb123]

Originally posted by rockytt
Currently the ONLY way (someone will correct me if I'm wrong...) to get DirecTv HD signals into a HTPC is to purchase an RCA DTC-100 and have it modified with a firewire output. This runs between $1000 and $1500 but the beauty of this is that you don't even need an HD tuner card then. Windows XP recognizes the modified DTC-100 as a JVC digital VCR and you can capture the files directly on your PC without any tuner card at all! You would of course need a PCI firewire board...
This gets asked and answered about every week or so, so I won't go into too much detail here. The thing people often forget is that the reason the HD cards work is that they have TUNER built in to capture an 8VSB modulated signal-which pretty much limit you to over-the-air broadcasts. Cable (typically) uses a different signal which (we hope and pray) will be supported by future HD cards. No HD card has a satellite TUNER built in (nor is it likely) much less a tuner that would decode the HD satellite feed.

I apologize for not making this a new thread the other guy told me to so I did http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=261733 .

I am very confused at how I could "add" a firewire output to the back of the RCA DTC-100 :confused: . can you link me to a complete tuitorial on how this is done? And also part of the reason that I wanted the tuner card built into the pc is because I could then use titanTV to schedule times to record and just because of all the nice features the card has over the set top box :(. You are completely sure that this is the right way to do it with the 8PSK signal??

[jorgel]

Originally posted by rockytt
Currently the ONLY way (someone will correct me if I'm wrong...) to get DirecTv HD signals into a HTPC is to purchase an RCA DTC-100 and have it modified with a firewire output. This runs between $1000 and $1500 but the beauty of this is that you don't even need an HD tuner card then. Windows XP recognizes the modified DTC-100 as a JVC digital VCR and you can capture the files directly on your PC without any tuner card at all! You would of course need a PCI firewire board...
This gets asked and answered about every week or so, so I won't go into too much detail here. The thing people often forget is that the reason the HD cards work is that they have TUNER built in to capture an 8VSB modulated signal-which pretty much limit you to over-the-air broadcasts. Cable (typically) uses a different signal which (we hope and pray) will be supported by future HD cards. No HD card has a satellite TUNER built in (nor is it likely) much less a tuner that would decode the HD satellite feed.


There has been a lot of discussion on "http://id-discussions.com/Interesting Devices Discussion Forum > Other Satellite TV > Satellite Tuner PCI Cards/" regarding PC Satellite tuners.

[neo1]

What software do you then use to display the firewire feed in XP?

Thanks much.

[rockytt]

actually, you just use xp. It recognizes the modified dtc-100 as a jvc digital vcr and loads the proper drivers automatically...

[neo1]

This may be the only solution now but as HD becomes more widespread it seems that TV & Capture cards will just take the output signal from the box to the screen much like I use S Video now. The modified VCR seems like a very expensive way to go.

I am willing to wait.

[TraderGordo]

Originally posted by rockytt
actually, you just use xp. It recognizes the modified dtc-100 as a jvc digital vcr and loads the proper drivers automatically...

FYI: I emailed 169Time. Basically their solution (modify Sat Boxes for firewire capture) costs $796. If you do your own install (which requires a day of soldering and technician skills) subtract another $100 for $696.

For the only added feature of being able to record Satellite HD, this is not worth it to me personally but I can see how it would be worth it for some people (I don't get HBO/SHO/DiscoveryHD and never plan to unless they are free). There is very little support for this solution, no fancy software etc. Not in the same league as the 7 OTA only cards this thread is focused on although perhaps one day it will get there.

[jjoboh]

does myHD record audio transmited in ac3 and does it play it back in ac3

[Kei Clark]

Yes.

[Eiffel]

myHD, and all the current cards, record HDTV audio transmitted in ac3.

The myHD will output this signal in ac3 over the card's SPDIF and over your soundcard's SPDIF too. It is also able to send a downmixed two channel signal via your sound card (The FusionHDTV cards are the only one that can decode ac3 multichannel signals, and output them accordingly, with a multichannel sound card)

[sdf777]

The MyHD output of 1280x768 is not functional but I believe is being worked on since being reported about 2 months ago.

[jjoboh]

so let me get this right,any hdtv programe recorded to my computer
hardrive thru myHD,can be played back thru my home theatre reciever in ac3,so long as it was transmited in ac3. no add ons needed
just want to make sure!
thanks all

[Eiffel]

jjoboh,

correct (keep in mind that most TV stations broadcast ac3 2.0 these days... which might explain why you only get stereo)

Eiffel

[BeefStu]

There's one more option if you feel like investing in $1500 worth of hardware: HDTV via GNU Radio (http://www.gnu.org/software/gnuradio/gnuradio.html)

Additional docs are here (http://comsec.com/wiki?HowtoHdTv).

[Eiffel]

Hmmm, interesting (especially for the Unix crowd), but I'm not sure that this compares favorably with the other solutions... for more mainstream users.

If someone gives me the hardware (tongue in cheek), I'll be glad to report on it and include it in the first post of this thread

Eiffel

[RacerChris]

Eiffel,

Thanks for the informative post. I was hoping one card would come out on top, but sounds like each have it's own mertis and faults.

I am leaning towards the MyHD 120. Do you know if this card outputs composite video AND component at the same time? Does the others?

Thanks a bunch...

Chris

[RacerChris]

Eiffel,

Thanks for the informative post. I was hoping one card would come out on top, but sounds like each have it's own mertis and faults.

I am leaning towards the MyHD 120. Do you know if this card outputs composite video AND component at the same time? Does the others?

Thanks a bunch...

Chris

[stylinlp]

About capturing HDTV from a HD STB like HBO HDTV I was told that you can use a HOLO3D 2 card. No PVR functions but that card will take in Componant cables. I was thinking of doing this. $1100 to watch HBO is kinda nuts thou and I dont know what software to use with it for switching channels.

[Morpheus_Rising]

Very good article, I was looking for something like this for a while. I'm a newbie here and to the world of HDTV. I started looking for a HDTV pci tv tuner card last year but there was so much information going in many different directions that I chucked it and went on with other research. A few months later I tried again but got the same results. So I tidied up my notes listing about 7 HDTV cards and put that into storage. About 1 month ago, I dusted off my notes and started my research anew. Alot has changed in a year. I wanted to make a "master list" of all the HDTV cards then read reviews on each one before I pick the "best one". I have found a few more that you don't have listed in your article.

1) Diamond DTV 2000 - ( dicontinued ) company went under, assets bought by others

2) Aquarius HDTV Receiver card

3) Sasem - OnAir DTV - Pro / -2000 / -1500 ( 3 models )

4) Sigmacon - Sigma Cyber HDTV
( site is in Korean )

There might be others, as I didn't really do a Google search to confirm that. As for the current group of cards, the Telemann Hipix was one of the cards I liked from last year and it looks like it is on its way out. The Access DTV card was the first one I found so I have abit of a soft spot for it. I kind of dropped it from my list as there were things that I didn't like about it - it couldn't record regular analog tv, the HDTV records were encrypted, and the play/record features were limited. I just heard that the software has been redone recently, adding alot of new features with more on the way - this puts the Access DTV card back one the list. The other 2 cards I like are the MIT MyHD 120 with the DVI daughter card and the Digital Stream HiDTV. I dislike the Fusion HDTV II because it is software based not hardware based. So that leaves me with those 3 cards - I'm planning on doing alot of read here at AVS and asking alot of questions (if you don't mind.) [My situation and hardware set up is unique as is what I want to do.] This well decide what card I will get.:)

[rockytt]

"I dislike the Fusion HDTV II because it is software based not hardware based."

Just curious-why is this a bad thing? There are many advantages to this type of card, not the least of which is that it is MUCH easier to update. It's also less expensive, and I don't need to run extra cables from my HTPC to my monitor which is located about 25' away. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that the Fusion is even close to a perfect product yet, but to rule it out just because it is software based... Why?

[JKohn]

Just look at all of the threads about jerky playback and other problems with software HDTV playback. Then consider the difficulties with getting 1080i, or the fact that you need a very fast machine, and it's easy to see why somebody would prefer hardware-based playback.

To me the only reason you would want software playback is if you're trying to route everything through a single DVI connection. I don't even see the price difference as being an advantage because if your current machine isn't fast enough you're going to have to upgrade your CPU (at the very least), which could end up being a price disadvantage.

I don't doubt that at some point software-based HDTV playback will work just as well as current software DVD playback, but the technology isn't there yet and frankly I'd rather not put up with the headaches of being on the bleeding edge when there are hardware solutions that work much better.

[JTAnderson]

I consider the software playback (or, more precisely the playback independent of the HDTV card) to be a distinct advantage in that there is at least the potential for recording one thing while playing back something previously recorded. If only DVICO were to divorce recording from playback in their software.

To the best of my knowledge, all of the hardware playback cards except AccessDTV preclude this due to hardware limitations.

I'll add that despite my problems with the FusionHDTV software, playback on my system appears flawless or close to it.

[e vey]

Well, you know, I have some history here and I remember when the bee's knees was the Hollywood + card becuse it decoded DVD's in hardware.

There are still people here who swear by those cards and still use them and when people said they thought that the software decoders were good, those software advocating people got shouted down.

Then the Hollywood + people got shouted down and I dare say that now many newbies don't know much about that card at all. Ancient History.

Most people don't seem able to accept the fact that there are advantages and disadvantages to *everything* whther they use that particulat piece of hardware/software or not.

[Morpheus_Rising]

Just curious-why is this a bad thing?

2 reasons: since it is software decoded the quality isn't as good as hardware decoding and it places more of a strain on the CPU which I don't want. (These were mentioned in the article.)

In chosing the tv tuner card, I have to look at how it is going to work in the system, specifically with relation to the video card, sound card and display. This is what I'm trying to do: I have the Gainward GeForce 4 Ti4600 Golden Sample card which has 2 DVI connectors and a SVHS connector for video in and video out. I'm using 2 DVI to VGA adapters to connect to 2 CRT monitors - the first being a 22" monitor (20" viewable area) running at 1280x1024 and an old 12" viewable monitor running at 640x480. I work on the main monitor and use the 2nd one as an extension to desktop and to display my media players.

I'm going to replace this old 2nd monitor with a 17" 16x9 LCD monitor with a resolution of 1280x768 (It can display 720P and 1080i) (its VGA only, no DVI which sucks). I want to do a pass through (video card to HDTV card to LCD monitor) using VGA, so I can watch live tv (NTSC & ATSC) / recorded tv programs (NTSC & ATSC) / DVD/ and video on this LCD monitor. I will have a co-axial cable connected to the tuner card for NTSC and an indoor antenna to start off with and hopefully change to an outdoor antenna later for ATSC. My soundcard is an Audigy Platinum 1 with the Audigy drive and I'm planning on getting a 5.1 speaker system (the Logitech Z680s). My optical drives are a CD-Rom drive and a CD-RW drive which I want to upgrade to a DVD-Rom drive and a dual DVD burner (8x). My hard drive is 250GB, so I have 200GB of free space to record programs. I also want to copy some tv programs onto CD or DVD to keep. I want to be able to hook up my SVHS vcr to my computer (by video card) and copy from tape to hard drive, do some video editing then copy to CD or DVD.

For software wise, I want "the works" - a digital VCR/PVR. I want to be able to program the tv tuner to turn on and record 1 or more programs then shut off. Just like a tv / vcr, I want to be able to watch one show while another is recording. I also want very fine playback/record features such as slow motion, frame by frame, x2, and various speed search speeds. Other features - Still capturing and video clip capturing and still and video editing, and a good scheduling program.

Other possible things I'm looking in too: I have one of those old tv antenna towers by the side of my house (the opposite side where my computer room is) - it must be 30+ years old. I have heard that you can use these to catch HDTV OTA. If it works, great, although I'll probably have to get a new antenna. I also thought about adding digital tv channels later on which would require a STB so I would have to figure out how that would have to be hooked up in the system. Lastly I also toyed with the idea of getting the Sony 34" CRT 16x9 tv set which has a DVI connector and adding that into the mix - although I doubt that I can as it is too expensive for me.

[jkaiser]

"Other possible things I'm looking in too: I have one of those old tv antenna towers by the side of my house (the opposite side where my computer room is) - it must be 30+ years old"

RF is RF is RF. Digital is just another form of modulation, it still has to ride on a carrier. There is no such thing as a Digital TV antenna.

If it is 30 years old, then be careful climbing it as it is probably very weak and rusty. You will probably have to replace more than the antenna, all the downleads will also have to be replaced (coax). You might get lucky though and only need a UHF antenna - this was the original HD plan. Unfortunately for me, they placed one on VHF channel 11.

[Morpheus_Rising]

If it is 30 years old, then be careful climbing it as it is probably very weak and rusty. You will probably have to replace more than the antenna, all the downleads will also have to be replaced (coax).

I did check and there is alot of brown spots so it is rusty. As for the antenna, one of the rods has broken off and another one is bent (thanks to the ice storm of Jan98) so I don't know how that would effect the reception/picture quality. (I was thinking of getting a new antenna anyway.) All the cables have to definitely be replaced. My dad has an old controller box with a large dial with a compass that you turn to rotate the antenna (don't know if the motor is any good.) The controller box is so old that I might as well get a new one.

[Gary in NY]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Morpheus_Rising
[
I'm going to replace this old 2nd monitor with a 17" 16x9 LCD monitor with a resolution of 1280x768 (It can display 720P and 1080i) (its VGA only, no DVI which sucks).

Morpheus_Rising, I have the Samsung 172w 16x9 LCD which has VGA AND DVI inputs. Signals from the MyHD 120 daughtercard are awesome. The monitor is around $500.

[Morpheus_Rising]

I did research a few months back on LCD 16x9 monitors and only found 4 17" monitors: Samsung 172W, Sony SDM-V72W, Sceptre X7SV Naga, and Philips 170W4P. The Sceptre wasn't very good, the Philips only advantage was that it could rotate to portrait mode leaving the Samsung and Sony. After the 17" size it jumps to 23" which is too expensive (about 3x the cost of the 17" monitors for 6 extra inches) so those were out (not to mention higher pixel response time (about 40ms) and higher resolution of 1920x1200 which you can't get on the DVI).

Reading several reviews on the Samsung and the Sony - the Sony is the better monitor (the only disadvantage is the lack of the DVI connector.) The Sony SDM-V72W has more input connectors: Composite, SVHS, and Component which you can toogle between different input devices, better contrast - 500:1 compared to the Samsung 172W's 400:1, better pixel response time - 22ms vs 25ms on the Samsung, better viewing angle - 150H/120V vs 140H/110, better integrated speakers, screen size is slighter bigger 17.1" vs 17", comes with a remote, and is HDTV compatible - can handle 720P and 1080i picture quality when connected a HD video signal.

In one review, the Samsung is stated as being "a lower end monitor" and the Sony as being "a higher end monitor". In another review where a group of LCD monitors were being reviewed, they were actually going all the way and taking readings and showing graphs and stated something interesting - the 172W's pixel response time was actually 29ms (25ms pixel rise time and 4ms pixel fall time) rather then the 25ms stated on Samsung's website (it is well noted that Samsung does not like to state their monitor's pixel response time.)

All in all, the Samsung 172W is a good monitor although it is not as good as the Sony SDM-V72W. It's only advantage is the DVI connector (which you lose alot of features from the Sony to get it). As for the Philips 170W4P it is also a good monitor (my 2nd choice) however I could only find a couple of reviews on it and I believe the Sony still had the better features.