AVS Forum Archive 2 - Please post your "HTPC as preamp/processor" success stories!

K-Wood

03-09-03, 10:43 PM

Elvis:

Here's my story. To quickly summarize -- I use the multichannel feature of my soundcard to send bass-managed analog audio to a Sony TA-P9000ES analog preamp. But I also use the S/PDIF out from my PC to an Anthem AVM-2 pre/pro. Both preamps feed an Outlaw Model 755 5-channel amp. With this setup I can watch a DVD using TheaterTek SPDIF out or using PowerDVD analog out, or I can fire up the external SACD/DVD player. The reduncacy is intentional -- the entire system can function even if the HTPC is off.
Are you using an M-Audio card? Or multi-channel built-in (to the mobo) sound? Or something else?
M-Audio Delta 410
What about the rest of your configuration?
ASUS CUSL2 Motherboard, Pentium III 1 GHz
512 MB RAM
Adaptec Ultra160 Wide SCSI-3 PCI Adapter Card
Holo3DGraph Video Processor Card with Faroudja and DCDi chipsets
Radeon 7500 64MB AGP Video Card
M-Audio Delta 410 Sound Card
Seagate Cheetah 36XL 18.4 GB, Ultra160 Wide SCSI-3 Hard Disk Drive (fast but loud)
Toshiba DVD Drive
What software do you use for DVD (audio) decoding/playback?
TheaterTek SPDIF out to an external processor OR PowerDVD XP analog out to multichannel analog preamp.
What software do you use for playing CDs and/or digital audio files?
J. River Media Center 9
Were you successful "right out of the box" or did you persevere through trials, tribulations and BSODs?
What advice would you give to those of us who may be about to embark on this journey?
More trial and tribulations than I can say. But Cliff Watson saved the day with the bass management drivers for the M-Audio cards. But the lack of a solution for decoding external sources (my DirecTiVo box) and the need to be able to run the system even without the HTPC (for my marriage's sake) led me down the road to complete reduncacy.
Most importantly of all - how satisfied are you with the sound quality?
Absolutely. My amps, speakers and preamp are all top-notch gear. The Delta 410 and ASIO playback from MC9, with flexible bass management in the Delta drivers, sound incredible -- not as good as SACD, but better, IMO, than the DACs in my Anthem AVM-2.
What about ease of use/user interface?
This is still a work in progress. Right now I'm using NetRemote on a Dell Axim and Girder. Girder contains all my system macros and is the secret "plumbing" making everything work. For example, because I have two preamps, I need to enable/disable volume controls for each depending on what DVD or music source I'm using. Girder makes it possible to enjoy this flexibility without confusing the user.
What (if any) are your regrets?
What changes (if any) would you make? What does your system lack/still need?
I'm pretty happy right now. I'll eventually upgrade my motherboard and I still have work to do on the user interface. Long-range plans include whole-house audio/video, touchscreen interfaces running MainLobby, and a full-on media server.
Have you been able to make any other head-to-head comparisons? If so, please tell us about those.

The Delta analog outs sound better than the DACs in my Anthem AVM-2 and better than the DACs in my old Sony DB-930 receiver with stereo music. More air, transparency, immediacy and more bass. The flexibility of the Delta driver's bass management is icing on the cake. In fact, I sold my Sony TA-P9000ES analog preamp thinking I would simplify my system by using the SPDIF out only. But the sound was not the same. I actually bought a new one -- at some additional cost -- less than 1 month later. For DVD sources I'm satisfied with letting the Anthem do the job, but for stereo music, and hopefully someday for DVD-Audio, I prefer to let the HTPC do the job.

- Ken

Bob Sorel

03-09-03, 11:18 PM

In case the distinction is not clear, using your HTPC as a preamp/processor means (by my definition) using multi-channel (or even stereo) analog outputs from your HTPC into a multi-channel (or stereo) power amp. If you're using the SPDIF or taking the analog outs into a receiver or another pre/proc, you could hardly consider that as using the HTPC as a preamp/processor.
But I also use the S/PDIF out from my PC to an Anthem AVM-2 pre/pro.

Ken, nice setup, but unfortunately you don't fully qualify under Elvis' rules. Since you are using S/PDIF some of the time, your system is fully functional even without your HTPC turne don, and you have an Anthem AVM-20 pre/pro in your system to provide full bass management, time alignment, and post processing, as well as to provide additional audio and video inputs, you are hardly "roughing it" as a HTPC pre/pro pioneer. :)

C'mon guys....Cliff Watson and Bill Gaw should be here telling their stories. Cliff can get anything to work, and Bill is the hardest core advocate in the forum, so why aren't they here telling us how to do it? Those two should be a given, so let's hear some success stories from some of you other guys! Let's hear from someone who doesn't even have a pre/pro or receiver in his system! This would be the mark of a true pioneer!!

Cliff Watson

03-09-03, 11:36 PM

”Cliff can get anything to work,”

Bob,

The last time I spoke of my HTPC success I was acknowledged with this comment.

“The only thing this proves is that you're leading a charmed life and/or you got extremely lucky!”

One can’t teach luck or how to live a charmed life. You either have if or you don’t.

power

03-09-03, 11:46 PM

Elvis,

did changing PCI slots help at all with your Revo issues? I wish you well on your quest....You are absolutely right, if others are doing it successfully then there is no reason why you can't. Ihope and trust your attention to detail and hard work will pay off:)

Phat Phreddy

03-10-03, 12:12 AM

<<< EDIT :: I reread this post and realize that this is clearly not what you are asking for above... Its took too long for me to want to delete it and even though it is not the info requested it does provide an 'alternative' that increases WAF and still gives you analogue to play with... If that really bugs you dont read on >>>

Elvis, I applaud your efforts and personally tinker around with analogue out on my 410 but in the interests of an easy life and continued relationship with my girl, I still have a reciever that I am thinking is my weak link in my setup... While this is not what you asked for let me make a proposal.

You are having problems due to being on the bleeding edge... The drivers are immature and that is giving you grief... You wish to maintain high end sound and utilize your power amps but although driver maturity may be real soon now its not delivered as you hope...

As a temporary compromise, I read last summer about a Klipsch box on the Norh forum and later in the Norh newsletter.. Heres what Michael Barnes of Norh says about this I was in Taiwan attending a computer show. While there, I met with a company that makes OEM products. One of the products they make is a AC3/DTS processor. The processor uses a Motorola chip and does a great job. The name of the company that makes the product is Minton. They manufacture a decoder that is one of the best values in the world. Their decoder can be found on here.

If you are located in Asia, you might be able to find the unit sold under the Minton label. In the US, the decoder is now marketed by Klipsch. I tried to find the device on their page and it took me a half hour. I don't know if they are trying to keep the product a secret or not. Klipsch sells the decoder for $169.95. This is a fair price and a very good unit. You can look the unit up here.

At $169.95, this processor is an excellent value. This unit and five Le Amps would create a very cost effective home theater system with astonishing value. This processor will likely improve the CD performance of most inexpensive CD players as well as it uses a very high quality decoder and from what I could hear, the analog sounded pretty good.

The link to the Norh news is here http://norh.com/news/0702/index.html

The link to the product is here http://store.klipsch.com/details.asp?prodID=8

As a Norh fan and customer I do like to read M Barnes comments. I do think he is often guilty of being very enthusistic of his own products but then who can blame him. This is a product he is recommending that he has no financial interest in and is rated as being high quality (no info as to what DAC's etc though). Never having heard it theres not much I can say other than...

Implementing this in a dual use setup will allow you to save some sanity... Use your existing amps... Keep testing until the analogue works 100% for you... Resell on fleabay or here and not lose anything more than double digit dollars... Stop some of your HTPC frustration... Keep your girlfriend !!

Perhaps compromise is out of the question but I just wanted to give you another perspective that was not expensive and would give a solution that may hold you over until you have what you need...

Jonmx

03-10-03, 02:56 AM

I just use my setup for DVD playback and occassional cable TV and web surfing so I am not trend setter here by any means. I am running on an Asus P4B266 with a P4 1700, a 7200 Radeon (latest drivers), Revo card (without the most recent driver update), gyro mouse/keyboard, Haugepauge WinTV card, and Windows XP with SP1. The only software I have loaded right now is WinDVD 4.0 and DScaler 4.1.5.

Very simple setup, I run the analog cables from the Revo into my Denon 5800 and get outstanding 7.1 sound on DVD playback. Doubt if any of this helps because my setup is pretty bare-bones and is limited in fuctionality, but it works great with flawless DVD playback at least on the several movies I watched so far. As you can tell I am not a big tweaker, but more of a KISS (Keep it simple stupid) type. I will add WinAmp and several games in the next few weeks.

K-Wood

03-10-03, 08:15 AM

Ken, nice setup, but unfortunately you don't fully qualify under Elvis' rules. Since you are using S/PDIF some of the time, your system is fully functional even without your HTPC turne don, and you have an Anthem AVM-20 pre/pro in your system to provide full bass management, time alignment, and post processing, as well as to provide additional audio and video inputs, you are hardly "roughing it" as a HTPC pre/pro pioneer.

LOL! I beg to differ, Bob. Just because I have the option to divert to a more traditional system with a stand-alone DVD player and pre/pro shouldn't disqualify me! I can, and often do, use PowerDVD to watch DVDs with full analog decoding. And ALL of my music listening is based on uncompressed wavs stored on the network and played through the analog outs of the Delta, with full bass management, time alignment, and individual speaker trim. Sometimes I listen in stereo, and sometimes I use Media Center's "J River Surround Sound" matrix decoding. Frankly, the bass management features for the Delta card are better and easier to use than the ones in my pre/pro.

The Anthem AVM-2 (not AVM-20) is a fairly late addition to the system. One of the main reasons I got it (used, btw) was to provide group time delay to solve a lip sync issue I was having with the Holo3D card and DirecTV. It has provided me the added bonus of being able to watch a DVD while the PC is off or being tweaked -- something that has become increasingly rare as the system has stabilized. The Anthem also is RS-232 controllable and provides status feedback, which is important for Girder my remote control system.

As for video inputs, I do use the Anthem for some video switching, but most of my sources go through the Holo card. I can always disconnect them and run them through the Anthem or direct to my display, but then I'd have to live without the PQ improvements of the Holo.

Despite the reduncacy in my system, the PC is much like a pre/pro and source combined into one:

Networked music player
CD player
DVD player
Video processor
Video switcher (VCR, DirecTV, stand-alone DVD player)
Remote control

About the only thing it can't do is decode external surround sources or play DVD-Audio or SACD. Although we may yet see DVD-Audio capability for the M-Audio cards -- Cliff?

- Ken

Bob Sorel

03-10-03, 12:50 PM

“The only thing this proves is that you're leading a charmed life and/or you got extremely lucky!”

There's nothing charmed or lucky about your life. It's called intelligence!

Just because I have the option to divert to a more traditional system with a stand-alone DVD player and pre/pro shouldn't disqualify me!

Hi Ken! I didn't disqualify you. I said "you don't fully qualify under Elvis' rules, and I stick by that statement. In some of Elvis' earlier posts on the subject, he made it clear that his definition of a HTPC trailblazer is one who does not even have a pre/pro or receiver being used at all...nada...nilch...not even to do menial chores...not even in the same room...not an option to be used once in awhile. You, on the other hand, have two such units, your Anthem AVM-20 and your Sony TA-P9000ES. Regardless of the fact that you use the analog outs on your soundcard (as I do also), you freely admit that you have uses for the other 2 preamps.

In fact, I sold my Sony TA-P9000ES analog preamp thinking I would simplify my system by using the SPDIF out only. But the sound was not the same. I actually bought a new one -- at some additional cost -- less than 1 month later.

I have owned a TA-P9000ES, so I know from personal experience that it goes a long way to taming the output of a soundcard, mostly by inserting volume controls, but there is a gain stage in that unit as well that certainly affects the sound quality, unless you are just using the multichannel passthrough and not one of the two multichannel inputs.

If you wish to be listed as a fully qualified trail blazing HTPC as a pre/pro enthusiast, you need to connect your sound card's analog outputs directly to your power amps' inputs, with no other devices in between...ever...for any reason! Not to do any video switching, not to perform any decoding, bass management, post processing, or even to solve lip syncing issues....EVER...not just most of the time.

Ken, I use my HTPC in a very similar fashion to the way you use yours, as I also have a Holo3D card, with my PC acting as:

Networked music player
CD player
DVD player
Video processor
Video switcher (VCR, DirecTV, stand-alone DVD player)
Remote control
terabyte media server

but I would hardly qualify myself under Elvis' rules, as I still use my Lex MC-12 extensively for video switching, bass management, time alignment, post processing (Logic 7 and DPL II), SACD and DVD-A playback, and to just make life generally more pleasant and easier to manage with all of the outboard gear I own. I do use my 410's analog outs (stereo only) to listen to music sometimes, but I connect them to an analog input of my Lex so that I can do all of the aforementioned things to the signal. I can instantly switch between a standard analog input and a true analog bypass, and you can be sure that the 410's analog output is every bit the equal of the Lex's, but why bother? The Lex gives me all those other options, so why cheat myself?

Elvis, after reading back this post, I have realized that I have gotten way off track and topic and I have no business posting my thoughts in this thread. All you have to do is say the word, and I will delete all of my posts, or at least replace them with "Deleted at the request of Elvis". You are a good person looking for success stories, and you have already heard my position before. I only want to help, and the help I am offering is not the help you want. For that I am truly sorry.

K-Wood

03-10-03, 01:22 PM

I see your point, Bob. I guess, in a way, we're both proving Elvis' point about the lack of success stories with a HTPC as a pure pre/pro. But in both our cases I think that our decision to use a separate pre/pro is driven more by the need to acommodate our external gear than by any perception of the inferiority of a HTPC serving pre/pro duties.

Two thoughts to add to the mix: The HTPC could easily surpass traditional receivers and pre/pros if software could be developed to provide multichannel (or even stereo) equalization and room correction. Several people are using advanced programs like ETF 5 to study room modes and frequency response, but we are stuck with using outside gear to handle equalization duties. If the EQ could be done inexpensively in software in the PC in the digital domain, along with automatic room correction, then PC-based systems could equal expensive ($$$$) external solutions like the TACT or AudioControl units.

My second thought is that the development of small form-factor PCs could change the way we think of HTPCs. For example, it is possible now to build a small PC that can serve as a TV tuner, PVR, networked media player, and DVD player in a single box that would output multichannel sound to an external amp or powered speakers. This would be perfect for a bedroom or second HT system and its quality and flexibility would far surpass the "home theater in a box" systems being sold these days. In this case, the HTPC is both the pre-pro and the source.

Elvis -- I apologize if we have strayed too far off-topic. Let us know and we'll shut up. And hopefully we'll hear from BillGaw -- one of the strongest apologists for the PC as a high-fidelity piece of audio gear.

- Ken

Bob Sorel

03-10-03, 01:45 PM

Ken, I am 100% with you! There is nothing I would like to see more than the things that you mentioned in your last post, especially real time room and speaker correction! I am behind the concept totally, and I feel that the HTPC has incredible potential as an audio tool, and I will be the first one to jump on the bandwagon when the day arrives that I can get rid of my expensive pre/pro for good. Unfortunately, that day is not yet upon us, but I maintain hope that it soon will be. Because of the PC's open architecture, it is unrivalled in its ability to adapt as sofware and hardware evolves, and I am thoroughly committed to backing it to the nth degree. We are certainly on the same page here!

Esben

03-10-03, 04:02 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
Are you using an M-Audio card? Or multi-channel built-in (to the mobo) sound? Or something else?

Yes, Delta 410, and occasionally the nForce onboard sound into the digital input of the Delta card (when gaming). But the Delta does fine with gaming, so I don't bother adjusting inputs.

What about the rest of your configuration?

2 stereo, active speakers (Teknico AL302 - www.teknico.com)
1 subwoofer, active also (Paradigm Servo-15 - www.paradigm.ca)

What software do you use for DVD (audio) decoding/playback?

I use ZoomPlayer, with Cineplayer 1.5 for video and WinDVD Platinum for audio.

What software do you use for playing CDs and/or digital audio files?

I don't play CD's, but if I did, I would use Winamp with either the CD-reader plugin or the default Windows digital extraction.

Were you successful "right out of the box" or did you persevere through trials, tribulations and BSODs?

Yes, it's been quite out of the box. Though now I'm receiving a BSOD in the Delta drivers quite often. But it hasn't been that difficult setting up.

What advice would you give to those of us who may be about to embark on this journey?

I don't know, but persistence might be good

[SIZE=3]Most importantly of all[/SIZE] - how satisfied are you with the sound quality?

I'm quite satisfied with sound quality. I've heard better, and know my speakers could sound much better, but my room limits them severely.

SQ isn't bad enough to give me a desire to upgrade (currently)

What about ease of use/user interface?

Through Girder, volume control in the Delta control panel has been setup so I can turn up/down the volume via the remote control and an IR receiver.

But when watching TV through the TV-tuner card, it's a hassle to go into the control panel and enable monitor mixer, goto the monitor mixer and adjust volume manually with the mouse.

What (if any) are your regrets?

I have no boxes of pride :)
(preamps, poweramps, fancy surround receivers etc.)

What changes (if any) would you make? What does your system lack/still need?

A volume knob would be nice to have. Perhaps an even better control of volume (via IR).

What did your HTPC-pre/pro replace and how is its performance relative to the gear it supplanted?

I once had a Sony 5x100W DIN Pro-Logic surround amp with a Sony CD-player. I sold the CD-player and used my computer with a Diamond MX300 sound card instead, as source. My speakers were the Paradigm Monitor 7.
I sold the amp to my brother (cheap) and bought a NAD 216 THX poweramp instead and plugged it straight into the soundcard! Wow, no preamps! 2x125W at 8 ohms and THX certification for just $400 (at that time). Quite incredible.

A friend of mine also used his computer for almost anything, and I also had him buy the same amp and a pair of Cerwin Vega AL1000 speakers. Party galore!

Later the Servo-15 (and X-30 crossover) was added. Then 1 year ago the Monitors were swapped with a pair of AL302s. A couple of months later a Delta 410 was added.

So it's quite a step up from what I started out with ~4 years ago.

Have you been able to make any other head-to-head comparisons? If so, please tell us about those.

No. I have only heard the same pair of speakers as those I have, in a much larger (and much better acoustically), connected directly to an old Phillips CD-player and that literally sold me. Awesome sound.

But no direct comparisons.

summit3907

03-10-03, 04:03 PM

For a brief moment, I think I qualified for this thread. For the past month or so, I have been using the revo and passing the analog out to the 5.1 inputs on an outlaw 1050. While the outlaw is technically a receiver in its own right, sending it through the 5.1 inputs bypasses all internal processing and simply uses the amp section, so per this thread that should qualify. I run zoom player using pdvd video and windvd audio, and let the revo perform the dd decoding. All music is played using revo’s circle surround processing. That part of my system actually works pretty well, and has been for several months (previous card was zoltrix, spdif out).

I saw ‘briefly’ qualify because one evening I tried to hook up the analog audio out from my cable box (time warner 3100hd) into the revo to see how that worked. While I was pleased with the sound quality, the lip sync issue killed me. It was way off, and messing around with the buffer did not fix the issue. I understand this is a driver issue, and I am awaiting the update. At no point have I moved the video portion through the htpc – although I do have a capture card, I never bothered to get it going with dscaler. Maybe that will be a future project. Also, I never had a ‘reference’ quality cd transport, so I cannot comment on that. All I can say is my current setup is much better than the cheap stb dvd player I used to have for dvd, and CSII is much better than the DPL on the receiver for music.

Aside from this issue, the other thing that I need to work out is how to get the digital audio from the cable box into the htpc, passthrough to the revo, decode, and then send back out through the analog outputs. TWC actually passes a digital signal for all my channels (except a few random local access), and I get DD on hbo, show, cinemax channels as well. I thought for a while of using the zoltrix for input to see if I could pass it through, but never had the time.

Generally speaking, I have had pretty good luck with the process. With the exception of some stability problems with zp after downloading the trial version of cineplayer (which went away when I uninstalled it), the system has more or less worked out the box. I have had the htpc for a little over a year, and ran into some bumps initially with the zoltrix and ati video card, but those were resolved a while ago. The sound quality for music is much better using CSII than my receivers DPL. Really no comparison. That included the brief session using the analog outputs from the cable box. For DD, I can't really tell a difference between the zoltrix, revo, and the outlaw processor. However, the DD from the cable box (when present) through the outlaw was superior to analog material passed into the revo and outputted using CSII. That is why I feel that I need to get the digital audio passthrough working before moving entirely to the HTPC.

Some things I would like:
• As mentioned, passthrough of digital signals into and out of HTPC
• Some automated method of switching revo control panel from DVD setting (no CSII processing) to 5.1 channel music setting (CSII). I have to make sure this setting is correct when switching between dvd and music, or the audio is inappropriately presented.
• I would have to get the video portion through HTPC to complete this project and be able to remove the functionality of the outlaw to just an amp.
• Still need to work on the interface. I have a pronto TSU3000 on order, so I guess a girder session will be in order shortly.

System Config:
• Asus m-board with amd xp 1.4
• Linksys wireless lan
• Revo
• Ati 7200
• Zp (pdvd vid, windvd aud)
• Media player and winamp for songs.

Kevin

gnollo

03-10-03, 05:13 PM

I qualify for the thread and I have been using this combo for quite some time now.
System Config (more in my software guide below):
- DIGN 3E HTPC Case (gold)
- Fortron Source PSU: FSP-300-60ATV (modified with Verax fan)
- Pentium III 1Ghz processor, I replaced the standard heatsink with a Smartcooler FSM1497M
- 512 MB Ram
- ATI Radeon 7500 videocard (replaces an ATI AIW Radeon) modified with a silent heatsink
- Falcon capture card
- Asus PF 3B motheboard
- Delta 410 soundcard
- 80 Gig Seagate IV Barracuda
- Pioneer 106-f DVD Drive , (region free) with the slow down software
- 2 Papst-fan 612FL (60x60" Air-flow 11.2 CFM/ 19 m³/h 16Dba)

The Delta 410 is connected with the 5.1 analogue inputs of my AVR100 Arcam amplifier, which is working as a power amplifier. The amp is connected with a set of Kef Q55.2 speakers + a loose subwoofer (non-kef)
Since the advent of the beta driver, the Delta410 has been troublefree for me.

HTPC USE
- for DVD playback I use ZP with Cineplayer 1.5 video and Windvd 4 audio filter, via analogue, passing DD and DTS. Via MyHTPC I created a list of my DVDs: when I select the DVD I want to play it asks me to insert the disk if it is offline...
- for divx playback I use MyHTPC, which is in turn using MP9 with the CSII plugin, also outputting to analogue. I have some disks on HD, others are offline, same functionality as above
- for TV viewing like functionality, I use the Falcon card coupled with Dscaler, and the analogue inputs of the Delta 410 (I am forced to play just a handful of videos via my JVC VCR). No CSII when I use it this way, but there you go.. I guess this would be solved by using the Revo, but I think I will wait a little longer ;) I really don't use my LT150 for on-air or satellite viewing that much....
- for music Jukebox functionality I use MusicConsole, playing back my .ape collection via Winamp 2.8 + ASIO plugin again using the analogues out
- for occasional CD playback I use again Winamp 2.8 + Asio
All Pronto operated, for WAF factor I use MediaConsole as a visual guide to using Pronto... The volume level (via the amp) is controlled by the Pronto.
I guess to have perfection... I wold like the CSII to work with Dscaler... but really, what is perfection ;) I guess it would be to run with 220....;)

ElvisIncognito

03-10-03, 05:51 PM

Wow! Wasn't expecting quite this much activity in such a short time. Thanks, all, for your time and thoughts...
Originally posted by Karnis
<bump> My thread - bumped - by Karnis. I'm honored! :)
Originally posted by Mark Rejhon
You're welcome, glad you liked my information! Try private messaging two or three guys you heard had good pre-processing, and tell them to post in this thread.Good call, Mark. Will do!Originally posted by K-Wood
The redundancy is intentional -- the entire system can function even if the HTPC is off.I read about this in another thread, and after that, it wasn't at all difficult (in light of my HTPC problems) to get my wife to agree to a similar setup. For a $500 investment, we purchased a 27" TV and a receiver with 5.1 pre-outs. The HTPC is now in another room entirely, and undergoing a from-the-ground-up overhaul. My beloved CRT projector sits forlornly in a corner of the room, collecting dust. *HEAVY SIGH* But my wife is much happier and this has done wonders for our marriage. When the HTPC is ready - really ready, and rock-solid stable, resplendent with its wife-friendly interface, NetRemote, Girder, macros, etc., it will be easy enough to switch back over. And, if necessity dictates, to switch back again to the "HT backup system." Thank you so much, Ken, for your advice in this matter.

And thank you for your detailed response. Your system looks fabulous.
Holo3DGraph Video Processor Card with Faroudja and DCDi chipsets

But the lack of a solution for decoding external sources (my DirecTiVo box)Huh??? You don't consider the H3D to be a solution for your external DirecTiVo?
better, IMO, than the DACs in my Anthem AVM-2.
. . .
The Delta analog outs sound better than the DACs in my Anthem AVM-2 and better than the DACs in my old Sony DB-930 receiver with stereo music. More air, transparency, immediacy and more bass.AWESOME! That's the kind of thing I was hoping to hear!!! That is SO encouraging!
For example, because I have two preamps, I need to enable/disable volume controls for each depending on what DVD or music source I'm using. Girder makes it possible to enjoy this flexibility without confusing the user.For me, the switch between primary (HTPC + CRT) and backup (Cheapo receiver + 27" TV) is all about disconnecting one set of patch cables from the power amp and connecting the other. (Eventually I'll probably fab a patch panel to make it easy enough for the wife to do, but for now I think it's good enough.) The rest of the components are either dedicated to one system or the other (i.e. DVD STB is connected to 27" TV) or a different output is used for each system (i.e. the DirecTiVo's digital output feeds the receiver, but I use the analog outs into the HTPC because I prefer to use CSII for DirecTiVo content.)
Long-range plans include whole-house audio/videoMan are you going to hear it from the "Don't try to do too much with your HTPC" crowd on THAT one! *LOL*

touchscreen interfaces running MainLobby, and a full-on media server.Sounds SWEET. Same here, someday... (OT, but have you spotted Mastiff's page on multi-zone via MJ?)Originally posted by Bob Sorel
C'mon guys....Cliff Watson and Bill Gaw should be here telling their stories. Cliff can get anything to work, and Bill is the hardest core advocate in the forum, so why aren't they here telling us how to do it? Those two should be a given, so let's hear some success stories from some of you other guys! Let's hear from someone who doesn't even have a pre/pro or receiver in his system! This would be the mark of a true pioneer!! AMEN!
Originally posted by Cliff Watson
Bob,

The last time I spoke of my HTPC success I was acknowledged with this comment.

“The only thing this proves is that you're leading a charmed life and/or you got extremely lucky!”*LMAO* OK, Cliff, guilty as charged, BUT... I said that in response to this:I have Revo installed in my “do all” test bed HTPC as I type the post.

I’m using WinXP Home with “ALL” updates installed and this installation was an OEM from 30 days before XP was released to the public. That’s what, 19 months on the same install and I beta test many, many different software and drivers. Eight or ten different soundcards, several different graphics cards. Almost all multimedia software that comes down the pike. I record HDTV in the background (to HDD or D-VHS tape) while watching DVDs. ALL PCI slots are loaded.

I have installed and use all my computer based analytical software, four different DVD players, Microsoft Office, photo editing and management software and everything else that Windows installs. I have never tweaked the OS to recover any resources used by anything being run by windows or any other software.

In 19 months on this install I have used restore twice to recover the OS from bad software.I mean, COME ON...!!! All PCI slots full, a Microsoft OS release candidate, swapping soundcards and graphics cards in & out, beta drivers, all kinds of software...?!?!?!

AFAIK, this is not humanly possible! (And this in turn confirms my suspicion that Cliff Watson is not, in fact, of this world, but is rather some sort of supreme being. Possibly a member of the Q Continuum?) I hate to take my own thread OT, but [RFC to all...] I think you would ALL have to agree with me - Cliff is way beyond lucky!!!
Originally posted by power
did changing PCI slots help at all with your Revo issues? I wish you well on your quest....You are absolutely right, if others are doing it successfully then there is no reason why you can't. Ihope and trust your attention to detail and hard work will pay off It did seem to, Serge. Thanks for the supportive comments! :)
Originally posted by Phat Phreddy
Implementing this in a dual use setup will allow you to save some sanity... Use your existing amps... Keep testing until the analogue works 100% for you... Resell on fleabay or here and not lose anything more than double digit dollars... Stop some of your HTPC frustration... Keep your girlfriend !!Thanks, PP - this comment is most welcome. As you've probably read by now, I've already gone down that road, and I'm very glad I did. I only wish I'd read about this particular piece prior to buying the El Cheapo (Sherwood) receiver (which does AC3 but no DTS - and I paid approx. the same amount for it! :() Perhaps the Sherwood will end up on eBay and I'll buy one of these instead...
Originally posted by Jonmx
I just use my setup for DVD playback and occassional cable TV and web surfing so I am not trend setter here by any means. I am running on an Asus P4B266 with a P4 1700, a 7200 Radeon (latest drivers), Revo card (without the most recent driver update), gyro mouse/keyboard, Haugepauge WinTV card, and Windows XP with SP1. The only software I have loaded right now is WinDVD 4.0 and DScaler 4.1.5.

Very simple setup, I run the analog cables from the Revo into my Denon 5800 and get outstanding 7.1 sound on DVD playback. Doubt if any of this helps because my setup is pretty bare-bones and is limited in fuctionality, but it works great with flawless DVD playback at least on the several movies I watched so far.Au contraire, very helpful - I'm not after extreme functionality, but rather stability and performance. Care to elaborate on SQ?
Originally posted by K-Wood
LOL! I beg to differ, Bob. Just because I have the option to divert to a more traditional system with a stand-alone DVD player and pre/pro shouldn't disqualify me!
. . .
As for video inputs, I do use the Anthem for some video switchingNo problem/disqualification there. I do something similar, using an old Philips integrated amp as a source selector, but it is 100% passive relative to the signal - it's not even plugged into AC, and as such is purely a switch.

I have no problem with preamps used as source selectors - that would make them pre-HTPC, and therefore (effectively) a source device as opposed to a preamp. But if you've got the Delta's analog outs feeding the Anthem, and the Anthem's outputs feed the power amps, that's definitely a post-HTPC scenario, and the Anthem is in fact functioning as a preamp. So, strictly speaking, Bob is correct. (That said, he went a bit too far on his next post.)Originally posted by Bob Sorel
I said "you don't fully qualify under Elvis' rulesAgreed, but...
In some of Elvis' earlier posts on the subject, he made it clear that his definition of a HTPC trailblazer is one who does not even have a pre/pro or receiver being used at all...nada...nilch...not even to do menial chores...not even in the same room...not an option to be used once in awhile.Now you're putting words in my mouth - all I said was, "...using your HTPC as a preamp/processor means (by my definition) using multi-channel (or even stereo) analog outputs from your HTPC into a multi-channel (or stereo) power amp."
but there is a gain stage in that unit as well that certainly affects the sound qualityCorrect. And therein lies the rub. I think the litmus test is, if the volume control works, it's a preamp (unless it's a passive preamp).

If you wish to be listed as a fully qualified trail blazing HTPC as a pre/pro enthusiast, you need to connect your sound card's analog outputs directly to your power amps' inputs, with no other devices in between...ever...for any reason! Not to do any video switching, not to perform any decoding, bass management, post processing, or even to solve lip syncing issues....EVER...not just most of the time.Again, by my definition (and my intent for this thread), that's taking things a bit too far. Nothing wrong with having a redundant/backup system, but I agree in principle that "you need to connect your sound card's analog outputs directly to your power amps' inputs."

and you can be sure that the 410's analog output is every bit the equal of the Lex's, but why bother? The Lex gives me all those other options, so why cheat myself?
Ah - excellent - more input on HTPC sound quality. Thank you.
Elvis, after reading back this post, I have realized that I have gotten way off track and topic and I have no business posting my thoughts in this thread. All you have to do is say the word, and I will delete all of my posts, or at least replace them with "Deleted at the request of Elvis". You are a good person looking for success stories, and you have already heard my position before. I only want to help, and the help I am offering is not the help you want. For that I am truly sorry.No problem Bob - your points (though perhaps belabored ;)) were very much in the spirit of the thread. Thanks for the input! :)
Originally posted by K-Wood
I see your point, Bob. I guess, in a way, we're both proving Elvis' point about the lack of success stories with a HTPC as a pure pre/pro. But in both our cases I think that our decision to use a separate pre/pro is driven more by the need to acommodate our external gear than by any perception of the inferiority of a HTPC serving pre/pro duties.Interesting perspective, but still puzzling to me. For my system, my intent is to have the HTPC serve as the DVD player - internal, CD player (when actually playing a CD instead of .APE files stored on the hard drive) - internal, HDTV tuner/decoder/PVR - internal, and scaler/deinterlacer for my DirecTivo which is external, but connects to the HTPC via my capture card and the analog inputs of the Revo (to be processed by CSII.) The only things I could see myself adding would be a D-VHS deck and maybe an SDI-modded DVD STB, but if I was to do this, I'd obviously upgrade my capture card to a Holo3D, and that would resolve the multiple input issues.

If the EQ could be done inexpensively in software in the PC in the digital domain, along with automatic room correction, then PC-based systems could equal expensive ($$$$) external solutions like the TACT or AudioControl units.I have no doubt that this is "Coming soon to a (home) theater near you!"

My second thought is that the development of small form-factor PCs could change the way we think of HTPCs. For example, it is possible now to build a small PC that can serve as a TV tuner, PVR, networked media player, and DVD player in a single box that would output multichannel sound to an external amp or powered speakers. This would be perfect for a bedroom or second HT system and its quality and flexibility would far surpass the "home theater in a box" systems being sold these days. In this case, the HTPC is both the pre-pro and the source.But for the "small form factor" (and maybe PVR since no one has yet managed to build a better mousetrap than TiVo), that's precisely what I'm talking about - my HTPC is (or will be) my pre/pro and (DVD/HDTV/audio) source.
Elvis -- I apologize if we have strayed too far off-topic. Let us know and we'll shut up. And hopefully we'll hear from BillGawNo problem, Ken, but I think it's time you & Bob just buried that horse. ;) Paging Mr. Gaw... Bill Gaw, white courtesy phone, please...
Originally posted by Esben
I'm quite satisfied with sound quality. I've heard better, and know my speakers could sound much better, but my room limits them severely.

SQ isn't bad enough to give me a desire to upgrade (currently)That's the least enthusiastic response thus far. Do you hold the room at fault? I'd be interested in your findings if you bypassed the HTPC, possibly using a CD player straight into the speakers to directly compare SQ within the same acoustic environment.
I have no boxes of pride :) (preamps, poweramps, fancy surround receivers etc.)Guess you'll just have to buy a BMW or something. :^)
Originally posted by summit3907
For a brief moment, I think I qualified for this thread. For the past month or so, I have been using the revo and passing the analog out to the 5.1 inputs on an outlaw 1050. While the outlaw is technically a receiver in its own right, sending it through the 5.1 inputs bypasses all internal processing and simply uses the amp section, so per this thread that should qualify.Depends - does the volume knob on the Outlaw still work?

All I can say is my current setup is much better than the cheap stb dvd player I used to have for dvd, and CSII is much better than the DPL on the receiver for music.
So basically, I think, you're using your HTPC as a DVD player... but not as a preamp/processor.

Some automated method of switching revo control panel from DVD setting (no CSII processing) to 5.1 channel music setting (CSII). I have to make sure this setting is correct when switching between dvd and music, or the audio is inappropriately presented.I hear that's coming fairly soon. Thanks for the input, Kevin!
Originally posted by gnollo
I qualify for the thread and I have been using this combo for quite some time now.Thanks, gnollo - you have been one of my inspirations in this endeavor. You didn't say much about sound quality, though...?

gnollo

03-10-03, 06:05 PM

I did an A/B/C comparison between CSII (MP9) and DPI(amp) and DPII (using Windvd and PowerDVD) for the same stereo file (an encoded divx).
CSII kicks ass.
I compared my SBLive SPDIF with the Maudio SPDIF. MAudio Delta410 is much better (no need to tell you that). I compared the analogue outs of the Delta 410 with Toshiba SD2109 and Delta410 SPDIF out.... Analogue out is the winner in terms of soundstaging, clarity, power and configurability. I cannot give you any other comparisons unfortunately because I don't own any Lexicons and I am not used to compare with soundcard I have never tested (hint hint... who is the misterious member gnollo is referring to?).
All in all, thank you Maudio and thank you Cliff for bringing the Delta410 to my attention.

Cliff Watson

03-10-03, 06:23 PM

”I mean, COME ON...!!! All PCI slots full, a Microsoft OS release candidate, swapping soundcards and graphics cards in & out, beta drivers, all kinds of software...?!?!?!”

OS release candidate??? You assume far too much. OEMs receive the release version of new operating systems in advance of the public release so that PCs with the new OS are ready day and date as the official public release.

”AFAIK, this is not humanly possible! (And this in turn confirms my suspicion that Cliff Watson is not, in fact, of this world, but is rather some sort of supreme being. Possibly a member of the Q Continuum?) I hate to take my own thread OT, but [RFC to all...] I think you would ALL have to agree with me - Cliff is way beyond lucky!!! “

Given that my HTPC as preamp success is based on the same HTPC previously discussed it would serve little purpose for me to discuss it other than to provide an opportunity for doubters with lessor skills.

Bob Sorel

03-10-03, 06:27 PM

Hi Elvis,

Well, since you are interested in hearing about sound quality, I can at least give you some great news in that area. First of all, I own 4 different M-Audio cards, all bought sequentially, and all which are still in various machines in my home. I started with the original Delta Dio 24/96 (M-Audio's first card introduced for the HT crowd), the Audiophile 24/96, the Delta 410, and now the Revolution 7.1, so I have had plenty of time listening to these cards. Also, let me explain that I am now a retired professional musician of some 25 years, as well as a long time audiophile, so I feel that I am at least somewhat qualified in my abilities to hear differences between cards, speakers, etc. I have also owned the then top of the line Yamaha RX-V1 receiver, then a Tag McLaren AV32R-EX pre/pro (which Cliff lovingly called my POS Tag :rolleyes: ), and now currently a Lexicon MC-12, and I have been one of the big defenders (like Bill Gaw) of the top notch sound quality of the M-Audio series of cards.

The DAC's on these cards are first rate! Even the original Dio's DAC's were a step up from those on my Yammy, and though I could not say that they were/are any better than those on the Tag or Lex, they are every bit the equal of those two units, and either of those two pre/pros has sonics that are about as good as it gets. I have taken the time to compare the Delta 410's analog stereo output, fed through a true analog bypass, to the S/PDIF output of the same card going to the Lex's DAC's and then proceeding unaltered to my speakers, and even with all of my musical training and background, I can't reliably tell them apart! The 410's noise floor is extremely low (despite claims by others who say this is not possible in a PC environment), the transient response is excellent, the dynamic range is extremely wide, and the sound in general can be described as airy, yet very detailed, producing a solid sonic "wall" of sound (that's my own description :) ) that you won't hear from lesser DAC's. Are the DAC's in the 410 better than those in my Lex...certainly not, but they are also not any worse! Now please understand, I am comparing the DAC's in a $10,000 pre/pro to those in a $170 soundcard, so you can now draw your own conclusions. :D

Now, since the drivers for the Revo are as yet immature, I have not ventured to install the card into my big system, as I don't feel it is quite ready for prime time yet. From the specs and info I have seen on the Revo DAC's, these might just be better than the ones in my Lex, but I can't attest to it until the day that I do the comparisons for myself. Believe me, once the drivers mature and M-Audio releases a software DVD-A player, the Revo is getting installed in the big system, and I will have plenty of opportunity to compare 6 analog outputs, as well as the stereo analog outs I have used from the 410.

Elvis, If I knew you were looking for reports as to the sound quality of the M-Audio cards, I would have told you all this a long time ago. I figured everyone knew how good they are by now!

summit3907

03-10-03, 08:20 PM

from elvis:

Depends - does the volume knob on the Outlaw still work?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All I can say is my current setup is much better than the cheap stb dvd player I used to have for dvd, and CSII is much better than the DPL on the receiver for music.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So basically, I think, you're using your HTPC as a DVD player... but not as a preamp/processor.

end quote.

elvis, yes i use the volume on the outlaw, but more because i have a remote that works for it rather than out of need. when i get the pronto set up (just came in the mail today!), i will experiment with girder commands for it, at least for the htpc portion.

regarding the second part, yes, i guess it is mostly as a dvd/music player, but the audio portion can be more or less entirely managed by the htpc - the analog portion as soon as the sync issue with the audio input that i mentioned is fixed, and as soon as i figure out the digital part (anyone had success with this??). i might try again in a few months; after an upcoming move, i am thinking of getting a real amp. before i buy the pre/pro, i will definely experiment with a more fully realized htpc as pre/pro, including all video/pvr functionality. hopefully, in about 6 months, a few more issues will be worked out and we won't need a thread dedicated to a few success stories!

huyazo

03-10-03, 08:39 PM

Hey guys, I'm trying to build a pro/pre HTPC and would really appreciate your input. I've created a new thread for this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236549

Please visit and help a noob out with your valued experience and expertise. Thanks!

huyazo

ElvisIncognito

03-10-03, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by Cliff Watson
OS release candidate??? You assume far too much.Guilty as charged... again!

Given that my HTPC as preamp success is based on the same HTPC previously discussed it would serve little purpose for me to discuss it other than to provide an opportunity for doubters with lessor skills.It's a wonder you see any purpose in discussing anything at all with we who are not worthy (but I sure am glad you do! ;) :D)

That said...

SKILLS?!?! Cliff, when you take off your shoes and socks at night, are those human feet you see... or are they rabbit's feet? :D When you go out and mow your yard on the weekend, are you cutting grass... or is your whole yard nothing but four-leaf clovers? ;)

Seriously, though, from someone who considers himself "The Schleprock of Computing", the PC you described absolutely flabbergasts me! It just doesn't seem possible to me.

:D :D :D ONE THING FOR SURE, THOUGH...
When I grow up, I wanna be CLIFF WATSON! :D :D :D

ElvisIncognito

03-10-03, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by Bob Sorel
the transient response is excellent, the dynamic range is extremely wide, and the sound in general can be described as airy, yet very detailed, producing a solid sonic "wall" of sound (that's my own description :) )Whadaya know?! That's exactly how I describe my Maggies! :D
Elvis, If I knew you were looking for reports as to the sound quality of the M-Audio cards, I would have told you all this a long time ago. But that's not all I wanted to know, Bob... I wanted to know how they sound - via their analog outputs - directly into power amps, preferably using internal (to the HTPC) sources such as the DVD-ROM drive or Media Jukebox, etc. (But I thank you for your excellent input. FWIW, with regards to sound quality, I can think of no opinion more valuable than that of a musician... unless maybe it's a musician who is also an audiophile.) Thanks again!
Originally posted by summit3907
yes i use the volume on the outlaw, but more because i have a remote that works for it rather than out of need.Kevin- my point wasn't whether or why you use it, but rather does it work, because if it does, then your audio is passing through the preamp circuitry, and there is no such thing as pure uncolored preamp circuit. So, the Outlaw receiver is, at least to some extent, imprinting its own sonic signature on the sound from your HTPC.

This is not to say that my power amplifier does not do the same thing - just as the power amp in your Outlaw does. But the point is that it's an extra stage, and one that I'm seeking to (even advocating that others) circumvent.

hopefully, in about 6 months, a few more issues will be worked out and we won't need a thread dedicated to a few success stories! I hear ya, Buddy! Thanks again for the input!

Esben

03-11-03, 12:36 PM

"That's the least enthusiastic response thus far. Do you hold the room at fault? I'd be interested in your findings if you bypassed the HTPC, possibly using a CD player straight into the speakers to directly compare SQ within the same acoustic environment."

I have no CD player with variable output level, and we have no preamps in our house. Eventually I'll move my speakers to our living room, or perhaps borrow a friends HK CD player and integrated (pre+power) amp and see if it sounds different.
But untill now, my blame lays at my room.

"Guess you'll just have to buy a BMW or something. :^)"
Insufficient funds :)

(Also, we have huge registration tax on cars (180 % + 25 % VAT). E.g. M3 in USA: $46,500, M3 in Denmark $172,000. (1,170,000 DKR), and income tax is 50-60 %)

calvinhobbes

03-11-03, 01:23 PM

Hi guys

I've seen quite a few posts on the m-audio revolution 7.1, but it looks like it doesn't have a digital input. isn't this a major disadvantage when wanting to record onto the hard drive?

Also, are there any suggestions for a good 7.1 amp under $500?

cheers

ElvisIncognito

03-11-03, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by calvinhobbes
I've seen quite a few posts on the m-audio revolution 7.1, but it looks like it doesn't have a digital input. isn't this a major disadvantage when wanting to record onto the hard drive?Why would it be? What is it you're looking to record? CDs? DVDs? Stick it in the DVD-ROM drive.
Also, are there any suggestions for a good 7.1 amp under $500?Off-Topic - would suggest posting to a new thread, but I'll reply anyway...

Depends on your definition of "good", but by my definition, What have you been smoking? :D I doubt you could find a good 5.1 amp at that price - even on eBay - unless it's a fairly low-powered one. Efficency of your speakers will be a big factor there. Don't overlook the possibility of using a couple different amps to get 7 channels, but even that's probably not do-able in that price range.

Bill Gaw2

03-11-03, 02:11 PM

As much as I would love to say that the HTPC is ready to replace my EAD theatermaster Signature pre-pro, it just ain't ready yet. While there have been some big steps in the past two years I've been involved with this forum we still have a long way to go, and unless we get a card manufacturer and programmer on board, it's not going to happen.
First, the best of the multi-channel audio cards can at least come close to, if not better the best of the processors out there for sound. Review the thread going on simultaneously about the evaluation of the 1010, RME to high end processors. While the high end cards may sound different than high end processors, they may be more accurate. This has been a big argument point in high end audio for years: whether it is more important to reproduce the original signal faithfully or make the sound produced more musical. So score one for accuracy for the HTPC, ayt least with external cards.
Second, with the help of Cliff Watson, we have been able to get software for the M-Audio series that does some of the things that have been lacking in the past, such as bass management, control of volume for each channel, ability to control for DSP, speaker positioning, upsampling, etc. Unhappily, all of these functions can only be done with the REVO, a mid fi internal card with mid quality outputs. The drivers can also be used for their top of the line 1010, but one still doesn't have volume control of individual channels. Thus, an external volume control is still needed for each. Also, these drivers cannot be used on any of the other high end cards, such as the RME. Unhappily the high end cards to this point, were developed for recordists rather than people interested in playback. Until one of the manufacturers come up with drivers with the functionality of the REVO's and high end hardware that can use them, the HTPC is at a dead end. This must be possible, as the new CSII decoder with WIN MP9 can controll volume for each channel, and master volume control. Unhappily this only works with MP9, which degrades the signal by running through the K-mixer, which tries to change 44.1 to 48, which is a very difficult thing to do accurately.

Cliff Watson

03-11-03, 02:29 PM

”Unhappily this only works with MP9, which degrades the signal by running through the K-mixer, which tries to change 44.1 to 48, which is a very difficult thing to do accurately.”

Bill,

That is technically incorrect.

The Windows bug in KMixer/SRC does not attempt to resample 44.1 to 48KHz. The Sample Rate Converter bug resamples 44.1 to 44.1 when it should not. The resulting audio quality may be the same as resampling to 48kHz but the sample rate is output at 44.1KHz.

I’ll say it again, that the ONLY way we will get a fully functional pre-amp on a PCI card is when a company starts manufacturing a card based on the Melody™ multichannel audio decoder/post processor. As usual on the computer this development is being delayed because of licensing concerns (and cost).

Cliff Watson

03-11-03, 02:44 PM

”Seriously, though, from someone who considers himself "The Schleprock of Computing", the PC you described absolutely flabbergasts me! It just doesn't seem possible to me.”

Well I guess that you’re not going to believe that on that same HTPC I have two HDTV cards installed and at the same time record different channels to one hard drive OR record from one card and playback a recording from the other all from a single HDD.

Bill Gaw2

03-11-03, 02:44 PM

Sorry, I got ahead of myself and posted above before finishing.
Third, the high end cards can accept multiple analog inputs, such that at least with the 1010 you can input 4 balanced stereo signals with internal switching. Unhappily there is no program available that can take that signal and do any processing, such as Dolby Pro-logic, CSII, holosonics, etc. Thus two chsannel remains two channel.
Aslo, they usualy they only have one SPDIF input, so no switching of external digital signals, and again no signal processing as yet, so the HTPC cannot be used for external AC-3 or DTS decoding.
Fourth, there is no pass through of analog information. While they can be set up to tyransmit more than one stereo channel at a time, and thus allow pass through of multi-channel information, such as that from SACD and DVD-A, with all cards taking the analog signal is converted to digital, then back to analog again before pass through, and no volume control is possible.
I could go on, but I'd rather stop and list the audio needs that will have to be met before the HTPC rises on the sudio side that it has with video processing.
1.Do Dolby pro logic, or CSII processing of both external analog and digital signals from satellite, video discs, OTA analog and digital TV signals.
2.Multiple analog(done) and digital inputs for stereo and multi-channel matrixed signals.
3.Sync the audio and video of the external signals.
4.Pass through SACD or DVD-A 5.1 channel analog signals without redigitalizing them.
5. Volume control of all channels both individually and as master.
6. Bypass the K-mixer for CD, DVD-V, etc.
7. Decode DVD-A and/or SACD internally.
Added Features that woulds be of value:
1. Speaker correction software that will work independant of all other software.
2. Room correction software that will work independantly of all other software.
3. DSP of all stereo internal and external sources using CSII, DPLII, or some other system.
One software program that includes all of the benefits of WINDVD, PowerDVD, Music Center, WINAMP, Siren, etc for both video and audio. Unhappily, each of these has certain functions that the others don't that if were included in one program, would make the HTPC as easy to use as a home pre-pro.
Until then, while I love my HTPC's sound and video, I still can't throw out my pre-pro.
Bill
4.

Bill Gaw2

03-11-03, 02:52 PM

If I understand the K-mixer correctly, It translates 44.1 to 48 KHz, then retranslates it back to 44.1. Am I correct or not? Anyway, whatever it does it degrades the signal and should be abolished. Every software program should have ASIO drivers built in.
Bill

Cliff Watson

03-11-03, 03:20 PM

”If I understand the K-mixer correctly, It translates 44.1 to 48 KHz, then retranslates it back to 44.1. Am I correct or not?”

You are not correct. The purpose of the SRC is to resample wave audio that has a sample rate different than the default or currently used (by client software) sample rate to enable multiclient compatibility. When Windows boots the KMixer/SRC defaults to the Redbook CD audio sample rate of 44.1kHz and any wave audio input, at that sample rate, to the KMixer should bypass SRC and be passed to the soundcard unmolested at 44.1kHz and if another wave file is played at the same time with a different sample rate (ie. Windows sounds at 22.050kHz) the SRC would resample them to the default sample rate of 44.1kHz. The bug in Windows is that the SRC is applied to any wave audio regardless of the sample rate, even when it is at the default of 44.1kHz. The SRC uses a resampling algorithm with a quality factor that changes the bits including when going from 44.1 to 44.1kHz.

”Anyway, whatever it does it degrades the signal and should be abolished. Every software program should have ASIO drivers built in.”

Agreed! If the bug were corrected ASIO would only be needed to lower latency.

Jonmx

03-11-03, 03:51 PM

Too bad we can't get Cliff and Bill together to design the audiophile sound card for the ultimate in Home Theater and audio enjoyment.

netgeek

03-11-03, 04:09 PM

Well, the design could be done relatively easily - it's the licensing issues previously mentioned - e.g. Dolby, DTS, SRS, THX, et. al. - that are the problem. The companies that make the DSPs (Mot, ADI, TI, Cirrus, etc.) leave it to the manufacturer to determine what formats are supported and to then obtain appropriate licenses from the above IP owners (and many other)! Hell, I'd fire up OrCad and start the design now if someone wants to spend a bunch of $$ and time getting the licenses 8-).....

Cliff Watson

03-11-03, 04:27 PM

"Well, the design could be done relatively easily"

The reference design is already done.

Bob Sorel

03-11-03, 05:26 PM

As much as I would love to say that the HTPC is ready to replace my EAD theatermaster Signature pre-pro, it just ain't ready yet.

Well Bill, you were the most optimistic person I knew and a champion for the cause when it came to using the HTPC to replace a pre/pro in high end systems. It's a sad day to hear this admission from you, but one which I have shared for the longest time. Let's keep hoping.... :)

ElvisIncognito

03-11-03, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by Bill Gaw2
Until one of the manufacturers come up with drivers with the functionality of the REVO's and high end hardware that can use them, the HTPC is at a dead end.An unexpectedly negative post from someone who is often regarded as a champion of the HTPC as a preamp/processor... is somebody having a bad day? :)
unless we get a card manufacturer and programmer on board, it's not going to happen.It would appear that we DO have a manufacturer on board, in the form of M- Audio. It's just unfortunate that their cards are "outclassed" by the likes of the RME, Lynx, etc.
Unhappily, all of these functions can only be done with the REVO, a mid fi internal card with mid quality outputs.Have you tested the Revo, Bill? It hardly seems fair to call it "mid-fi" when its specs are markedly better than the 410's (and even, I belive than the 1010's). Yes, the outputs are a bit cheesey, but I'd wager that the amount of contact surface is larger on the Revo's 1/8" mini-connectors than where the tiny little pins meet the tiny little sockets on the 410/1010LT's dongle connector. AND, the Revo is easily modified to correct for this deficiency. (I've ordered the parts to replace the mini-jacks with five sets of RCA jacks. I expect them here any day now and will post pics when this project is complete.)

At any rate, I look forward to the Revo's inclusion in future rounds of Branxx's and dannydlp's testing. I predict surprising results from this "mid-fi" card, assuming the reviewers can get past their bias against it for its paltry $99 price tag.
the high end cards can accept multiple analog inputs . . . Also, they usually only have one SPDIF input, so no switching of external digital signals, and again no signal processing as yet, so the HTPC cannot be used for external AC-3 or DTS decoding.I just don't understand all this talk about external sources... If I may quote myself,Originally posted by ElvisIncognito For my system, my intent is to have the HTPC serve as the DVD player - internal, CD player (when actually playing a CD instead of .APE files stored on the hard drive) - internal, HDTV tuner/decoder/PVR - internal, and scaler/deinterlacer for my DirecTivo which is external, but connects to the HTPC via my capture card and the analog inputs of the Revo (to be processed by CSII.) The only things I could see myself adding would be a D-VHS deck and maybe an SDI-modded DVD STB, but if I was to do this, I'd obviously upgrade my capture card to a Holo3D, and that would resolve the multiple input issues.What are all these external sources that everybody seems to need? And why is an inexpensive switcher (e.g. from AudioAuthority) not an acceptable solution?
Unhappily there is no program available that can take that signal and do any processing, such as Dolby Pro-logic, CSII, holosonics, etc. Thus two channel remains two channel.
. . .
there is no pass through of analog information. While they can be set up to transmit more than one stereo channel at a time, and thus allow pass through of multi-channel information, such as that from SACD and DVD-A, with all cards taking the analog signal is converted to digital, then back to analog again before pass through, and no volume control is possible.I can take analog in, process it with CSII, control the volume, and send it back out. Yes, it undergoes an A>D/D>A cycle, but to the extent that all critical source material is internal, this does not strike me as tragic.
Sync the audio and video of the external signals.Good one, that. I agree. An external reference clock for both the video and audio (and perhaps even external devices) to synch to would be ideal, but at that point this becomes an issue of a hardware standard, so I suspect that we may have a (long) while to wait on this one.
1. Speaker correction software that will work independant of all other software.
2. Room correction software that will work independantly of all other software.
3. DSP of all stereo internal and external sources using CSII, DPLII, or some other system.
One software program that includes all of the benefits of WINDVD, PowerDVD, Music Center, WINAMP, Siren, etc for both video and audio. Unhappily, each of these has certain functions that the others don't that if were included in one program, would make the HTPC as easy to use as a home pre-pro.I agree that these features are needed and highly desirable, and I'm sure they're possible. Call me an optimist, but I believe we'll see soundcard- independent software that will do all of this within a year. Until then, I eagerly await an API for the Revo.

Oh yeah- one last thing...
This has been a big argument point in high end audio for years: whether it is more important to reproduce the original signal faithfully or make the sound produced more musical.<RANT>I've never understood that. There can be no "high fidelity" without "fidelity", and fidelity means true-to-the-original. If a recording engineer screws up, then I better hear it. The day we all sit around and discuss flaws in the recording studio (instead of the "musicality" of this or that component) is the day that audio will have truly attained "high fidelity".</RANT>
So score one for accuracy for the HTPC, at least with external cards.And a big one it is, IMO.

Sivad

03-11-03, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
[
Oh yeah- one last thing... <RANT>I've never understood that. There can be no "high fidelity" without "fidelity", and fidelity means true-to-the-original. If a recording engineer screws up, then I better hear it. The day we all sit around and discuss flaws in the recording studio (instead of the "musicality" of this or that component) is the day that audio will have truly attained "high fidelity".</RANT>

Amen

andersa

03-11-03, 10:15 PM

What are all these external sources that everybody seems to need? And why is an inexpensive switcher (e.g. from AudioAuthority) not an acceptable solution?
Well, one example is that more and more cable STB's provide SPDIF out with HBO and Showtime providing Dolby Digital programming. So if the HTPC is the preamp/processor, it needs to be able to decode the Dolby Digital stream from the cable STB.
On a sadder note - I just bought Ben Harper's Diamonds On The Inside which was released today. Only to find it not complying to the redbook CD format. Couldn't play the damn thing on my PC with the usual players, (i.e WMP9, MJ9). Instead the disk came with it's own crappy Player which played back the CD in 48kbps! So if this now becomes standard practice by the RIAA, we will also need a stand-alone CD player that is less fuzzy about redbook compliance feeding the PC with SPDIF, if for nothing else, to capture the CD as WAV and then compress to .ape or whatever format you prefer.

Bob Sorel

03-12-03, 12:39 AM

What are all these external sources that everybody seems to need?

Video:
RCA DTC 100 s-video
RCA DTC 100 VGA
Panasonic RP-82 component video
Panasonic RP-82 SDI
Sony SACD player component video
JVC VHS s-video input
JVC VHS s-video output
HTPC s-video (for recording to VHS for my dear old mom)
HTPC VGA

Audio:
DTC 100 digital
DTC 100 analog (for when 5.1 broadcasts only use 2 channels)
HTPC digital
HTPC stereo analog
SACD 5.1 analog
SACD stereo analog
SACD digital (for redbook CD playback)
DVDA 5.1 analog
DVDA digital (for redbook CD playback)
Sony 400 CD changer (for something to listen to when my media server is down)
MyHD digital
Phono stereo analog (yes, I still listen to vinyl too)

My setup is actually quite a bit more complicated than that, but that's all I could think of off the top of my head. :)

PD4TWCE

03-12-03, 01:04 AM

Hi all My name is John. I use my HTPC for every thing DVD,CD TV,PVR and jukebox. The software I Use is Power DVD, WinDVD Platinum,Musicmatch and ATI MMC. For me the only way to go is HTPC, the sound is great as is the video. Easy to choose music from HD. Have all of the major surround formats. And Just think its only been about 2 1/2 years and still growing.

A little bit about My set up. The HTPC is directly hooked up the amp using a Delta 410, the amp is a Kenwood KM-1 THX Rated 6 ch, Speakers are Magnepans .6 QR's up front MGMC1's for rears MGCC1 Center and for right now a 12" car sub. The Video is fed to a Sharp XV-90U via S-video on a 110" screen. I would put my HTPC up against any HI END system as the center piece. I feel that the future of HTPC is bright and can only get better.
Thank you
John Matteo

netgeek

03-12-03, 09:55 AM

Cliff,

I assume you're referring to ADI's Melody reference design? Or something else which is PCI based?

I was thinking about putting something together based on Cirrus audio DSPs but was really disappointed to discover that only a very few licenses are included with component purchase. Everything else has to be obtained ala carte through direct negotiations with Dolby et. al....... bummer.

Bill

Bill Gaw2

03-12-03, 12:07 PM

Cliff: What is this Melody chip you talked about and why isn't anybody using it?
Elvis: I'm not negative on HTPC, just saddened that all that I hoped for hasn't occurred yet. Bob did a good job of listing other audio external devices. While the HTPC can do many things the best pre-pro can't, the things I have listed are the things it can't. Until the HTPC can do all of the functions of a pre-pro its not a replacement.I'm not sure how good the REVO card is as I haven't had one to evaluate. Tried getting one through DC Audio but nobody answered my email. It would be nice if it came close to the 1010 for analog signal, but maybe the bar has been lifted by the Lynx and RME cards. Will have to try them out. TYhere was a rumor several months ago about a 1010 replacement with the functionality of the REVO, but haven't heard anything recently.
How are you taking analog in and processing it through CSII? I haven't figured that one out yet. Again, this doesn't solve the problem of not being able to decode Dolby prologic, or AC-3 or DTS from external sources. I'm surprised WINDVD or Media Center hasn't built this into their program, as they do a very good job on the video side with external sources through my TI 4600 s-video input. The 1280x720 output of NTSC through the card and program very closely match what I was getting with my line quadrupler, which now sits waiting to be sold. But all I can get on the audio side is direct playback of the analog two channel input directly from the sound card without processing or volume control.
As far as accuracy verses quality of sound, which I prefer depends on time of day and how I feel. This is becoming a moot point with software such as Media Center, where you can have either the direct feed out or use their DSP to recover ambience, sweeten the sound, round the bass, add wideness to the soundstage, etc. Thus with the HTPC you can have any flavor you want.
We are so close to the perfect pre-pro-video processor in a box. The video side is almost perfected. Now all we need is the completeness of the audio.

Cliff Watson

03-12-03, 12:37 PM

”I assume you're referring to ADI's Melody reference design? Or something else which is PCI based?”

Bill,

ADI has a PCI reference design based on the Melody DSP.

”I was thinking about putting something together based on Cirrus audio DSPs but was really disappointed to discover that only a very few licenses are included with component purchase. Everything else has to be obtained ala carte through direct negotiations with Dolby et. al....... bummer.”

Same thing with ADI. Infact you have to negotiate licenses and show signed agreements before ADI will ship you the reference sample.

netgeek

03-12-03, 04:13 PM

I notice that ADI has some new info on their site claiming that there ARE bundles available which include pre-negotiated licensing fees which are reflected in the component pricing. What's required is a simple NDA between you and ADI for eval - followed by a more substantial agreement which applies directly between the manufacturer and the original licensor prior to production. If that's the case - might make it much easier to justify production of smaller quantity production runs - which is what the potential HTPC applications definately are right now.

I may contact some old friends at ADI to see exactly what "the deal" is. I'm still interested in a few possibilities. For that matter, I also have a few contacts at Cirrus that may be able to shed some light on the problem. I would assume that if ADI is trying to make it easier, then Cirrus might be convinced to follow suit.

Of course, that leaves open the question as to exactly WHAT folks on this forum consider to be either "essential" or "nice to have". If I thought there was a consensus (or something even close) I'd be willing to invest some time and effort on this. What the hell, I'm bored, unemployed (by choice), and itching to go build something.

SO - anyone who wants to pipe up and lay out what you think the requirements are - have at it!!! :)

What's the actual "wish list" look like?

Regards,
Bill

P.S. Elvis - not trying to hijack your thread! But solving some of these issues would go a long ways towards achieving what you (and many others) seem to want...:D

PGPFan

03-12-03, 05:55 PM

Id say that it should look similar to below:

1) Both the Dolby and DTS hi-end surround flavors and DPL2 or CS2.
2) At least one 2-channel input that can also be routed with DPL2 or CS2.
3) Bass management
4) DVD-A support
5) Independant volume adjust for all channels (7.1)
6) Software API and support for plug-ins (room eq, time delays, etc)- must work with Girder
7) Perhaps an optional dongle to give more switchable inputs, controlled via USB
8) DAC's on par with Revo or better
9) At least one digital INPUT (output won't be necessary if the card is as good as it could be)

That's my quick list anyhow. (game support is low on the list for me)

-PGPfan

ElvisIncognito

03-12-03, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by Bob Sorel
Video:
RCA DTC 100 s-video
RCA DTC 100 VGA
Panasonic RP-82 component video
Panasonic RP-82 SDI
Sony SACD player component video
JVC VHS s-video input
JVC VHS s-video output
HTPC s-video (for recording to VHS for my dear old mom)
HTPC VGA

Audio:
DTC 100 digital
DTC 100 analog (for when 5.1 broadcasts only use 2 channels)
HTPC digital
HTPC stereo analog
SACD 5.1 analog
SACD stereo analog
SACD digital (for redbook CD playback)
DVDA 5.1 analog
DVDA digital (for redbook CD playback)
Sony 400 CD changer (for something to listen to when my media server is down)
MyHD digital
Phono stereo analog (yes, I still listen to vinyl too)OK, first of all, those are all inputs external to a pre/pro... If we're talking about using an HTPC as a preamp/processor (which we are :D), then we can strike HTPC s-video, HTPC VGA, HTPC digital, HTPC stereo analog, and MyHD digital. That narrows the list considerably to...
Video:
RCA DTC 100 s-video
RCA DTC 100 VGA
Panasonic RP-82 component video
Panasonic RP-82 SDI
Sony SACD player component video
JVC VHS s-video input
JVC VHS s-video output

Audio:
DTC 100 digital
DTC 100 analog (for when 5.1 broadcasts only use 2 channels)
SACD 5.1 analog
SACD stereo analog
SACD digital (for redbook CD playback)
DVDA 5.1 analog
DVDA digital (for redbook CD playback)
Sony 400 CD changer (for something to listen to when my media server is down)
Phono stereo analogWe can narrow that even further - a MyHD card will take the place of the DTC-100 (and add PVR finctionality). A software player should be available soon for DVD-A, and in most cases there's no reason to use multiple outputs from a single device, so that gets us down to...
Video:
Panasonic RP-82 SDI
Sony SACD player component video
JVC VHS s-video input
JVC VHS s-video outputNo reason why a Holo3D can't handle these, and you'd need one anyway for SDI, right?
Audio:
SACD 5.1 analog
SACD stereo analog
SACD digital (for redbook CD playback)
Sony 400 CD changer (for something to listen to when my media server is down)
Phono stereo analogAnd all of that can be done using a modestly priced external switcher (e.g. AudioAuthority) with the only exception being the SACD 5.1 inputs... are there no software players for SACD? Even if not, I still think we're awfully close, here, and most people don't have quite this degree of complexity, so they're already there.

ElvisIncognito

03-12-03, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by PD4TWCE
Hi all My name is John. I use my HTPC for every thing DVD,CD TV,PVR and jukebox. The software I Use is Power DVD, WinDVD Platinum,Musicmatch and ATI MMC. For me the only way to go is HTPC, the sound is great as is the video. Easy to choose music from HD. Have all of the major surround formats. And Just think its only been about 2 1/2 years and still growing.

A little bit about My set up. The HTPC is directly hooked up the amp using a Delta 410, the amp is a Kenwood KM-1 THX Rated 6 ch, Speakers are Magnepans .6 QR's up front MGMC1's for rears MGCC1 Center and for right now a 12" car sub. The Video is fed to a Sharp XV-90U via S-video on a 110" screen. I would put my HTPC up against any HI END system as the center piece. I feel that the future of HTPC is bright and can only get better.Not only using the HTPC as a preamp, but a Maggie-phile, too! I LOVE YA, MAN. :D
Originally posted by Bill Gaw2
There was a rumor several months ago about a 1010 replacement with the functionality of the REVO, but haven't heard anything recently.[SIZE=1]Too bad Cliff didn't take the bait on that one.[/SIZE] :D

How are you taking analog in and processing it through CSII?That functionality is one of the reasons they call it "Revolution". It's an awesome feature, and it's become my default configuration for watching my DirecTiVo.

Again, this doesn't solve the problem of not being able to decode Dolby prologic, or AC-3 or DTS from external sources.Not sure why you'd want to use DPL when you could use CSII. And the only real reason I could see to have AC3 or DTS coming in externally would be in the case of an SDI-enabled external player, and not many of us have dropped the fat wad of cash required to get into that ballgame. That said, software for processing AC3/DTS from external sources can't be far off - that's too easy.

As far as accuracy verses quality of sound, which I prefer depends on time of day and how I feel. This is becoming a moot point with software such as Media Center, where you can have either the direct feed out or use their DSP to recover ambience, sweeten the sound, round the bass, add wideness to the soundstage, etc. Thus with the HTPC you can have any flavor you want. Well said.

We are so close to the perfect pre-pro-video processor in a box. The video side is almost perfected. Now all we need is the completeness of the audio.I think we're really close to that as well. So close, in fact, that people are already doing it.
Originally posted by netgeek
Elvis - not trying to hijack your thread! But solving some of these issues would go a long ways towards achieving what you (and many others) seem to want...:D If you can actually deliver on this, then there's no apology necessary.

Phat Phreddy

03-12-03, 10:01 PM

I would add to PGP's list an analogue multichannel input that allows for volume control (I realise this will probably require a further DAD but it solves the external SACD issue)...

VTW I know of someone who has successfully written and used a real time speaker correction filter... it was only for WAV files and obviously requires a good mic etc for the filter creation side... shal I bug him to open source on it ?? Would others perhaps take up the flag and make an output plug in for MC ??

ElvisIncognito

03-12-03, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by Phat Phreddy
shal I bug him to open source on it ??Does the pope sh** in the woods??? VERY cool!

I'm investigating some avenues in this direction as well...
http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16246
Apparently, this sort of thing is commonplace with the "home studio" crowd.

MurrayW

03-12-03, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
We can narrow that even further - a MyHD card will take the place of the DTC-100 (and add PVR finctionality).

Elvis,

My external inputs ARE much simpler than Bob noted in a previous post, but I still have one that I am struggling with -- I really want to make my Revo a pre-pro. I too have a DTC-100. The MyHD card can replace the DTC-100 for OTA broadcasts but does not help with DirecTV. If I want to listen to the digitial out from my DTC-100 I need to run the digital out of my DTC-100 to a receiver or pre-pro.

The following is taken from the Cliff Notes on DC's website about the MyHD card. Although it addresses a question about recording programs the 2nd sentence still applies to just watching (or in my case, listening to the digital output) from cable or satellite.

Q. Can I record cable or satellite HD programs?
A. No. All HDTV card "stores" high-def signals in their raw data form and decodes the signal during playback. Since Cable and Satellite services do not use 8VSB modulation, their signals require dedicated tuners, and once decoded, cannot be routed to the input of the HDTV PC cards.

I purchased a Revo a few weeks ago and am in the market to buy either a multichannel amp or a receiver that can receive the analog output from the Revo and just pass it through unprocessed -- I'd rather just get the amp, but I'm not sure how to get the digital sound from DirecTV.

PD4TWCE

03-13-03, 12:16 AM

Elvis, thank for the kind reply. The Maggie setup is not quite complete
I still plan to add a pair of 3.6's next year. I built my HTPC to a all in one unit from the start. I have been considering a Revo for CSII and the DVD audio. It would be great to have a Full hardware processing sound card
with these surround formats. Dolby digital / EX, PL II, CSII, DTS/ES Discrete and THX Ultra 2 all with Bass Management. I don't see the need
for external processing IF you can have PCI Cards for each function ,HDTV DirectTV,Pre/pro sound card. The new Software HDTV card form DIVCO
is a step in the right direction with video and audio going through the PCI bus.
John

Cliff Watson

03-13-03, 12:24 AM

"Too bad Cliff didn't take the bait on that one. :D"

ROFL

ccclapp

03-13-03, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Bill Gaw2
If I understand the K-mixer correctly, It translates 44.1 to 48 KHz, then retranslates it back to 44.1. Am I correct or not? Anyway, whatever it does it degrades the signal and should be abolished. Every software program should have ASIO drivers built in.
Bill

I've been following the audio threads for a while now and still miss some of the basics...in 200 words or less, what is ASIO or, moreover, what is the significance of it, and is it applicable to music (as well as DVD)

Sorry to be dumb

--Caleb

Bill Gaw2

03-13-03, 11:09 AM

What does ROFL mean??
This thread is great. Finally I'm seeing as much enthusiasm on the audio as on the video side of the HTPC.
To answer some questions from Elvis above:
There should be no reason to have an external switcher for either analog or digital. The 1010 already has 8 stereo inputs which can be used for switching, and it should be fairly easy to add 1 or 2 spdif inputs. We are trying to replace the prepro and are looking for as few components as possible. Unhappily, the analog output from SACD and DVD-A would go through ADC to DAC stages before exiting, which is unacceptable. Thus direct analog pass-through with volume control would be helpful for those SACD and DVD-A players that don't have it built in. Again, this would only be necessary for SACD if we get DVD-A drivers.
The My HD card does not replace external HDTV from DirecTV, DISH or C-band. While each does its own video decoding, each has audio SPDIF out of Dolby Digital which will require decoding.Otherwise the pre-pro is still necessary.
Also, lets not go half way with an inexpensive card. I want RME, Lynx or 1010 level playback.
Bill

helzerr

03-13-03, 11:26 AM

ROFL = Rolling On the Floor Laughing :)

ElvisIncognito

03-13-03, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by MurrayW
The MyHD card can replace the DTC-100 for OTA broadcasts but does not help with DirecTV. If I want to listen to the digitial out from my DTC-100 I need to run the digital out of my DTC-100 to a receiver or pre-pro.I understand. Personally, I don't subscribe to any of DirecTV's HD channels (there's so little content available that I just can't yet justify the hardware & monthly costs.) I find that for all SD content from DirecTV, CSII is fantastic, but your point is well made. Thanks for the input.
The following is taken from the Cliff Notes on DC's website...Don't believe everything you read in those Cliff's Notes - I found out a little while back that some of those are ghost-written!!! Man, talk about disillusioned... next I'll probably find out that I really am dead. :D
I purchased a Revo a few weeks ago and am in the market to buy either a multichannel amp or a receiver that can receive the analog output from the Revo and just pass it through unprocessed -- I'd rather just get the amp, but I'm not sure how to get the digital sound from DirecTV.I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility to use a second soundcard along with the Revo, but finding software that will accept the SPDIF input from one device, yet output to a different device...Originally posted by PD4TWCE
I built my HTPC to a all in one unit from the start. I have been considering a Revo for CSII and the DVD audio.Awesome - you're a true trailblazer!
Originally posted by ccclapp
in 200 words or less, what is ASIO or, moreover, what is the significance of it, and is it applicable to music (as well as DVD)Someone else will have to define the XTLA, but in general, it's a low latency interface to talk directly to the sound card. As such, it bypasses Windows KMixer (aka KMangler) and provides the best possible SQ.Originally posted by Bill Gaw2
There should be no reason to have an external switcher for either analog or digital. The 1010 already has 8 stereo inputs which can be used for switching, and it should be fairly easy to add 1 or 2 spdif inputs.I agree taht that would be ideal, and I look forward to the day that it's a reality, but just because we don't yet have that doesn't invalidate the HTPC as a preamp/processor. For a great many people whose systems aren't that complex, I think it's a reality NOW. And for those people whose systems are that complex... so it has some I/O issues big deal - there's a workaround.

We are trying to replace the prepro and are looking for as few components as possible.Precisely- and by using my HTPC as a pre/pro, I've eliminated an external pre/pro, an external DVD STB, an external HDTV decoder, and my CD jukebox. I don't have a DVD-A player and have no plans to buy one; a DVD-A software player will be available soon enough, and that will take care of that. Regardless of whether I had one and the HTPC replaces it or I simply don't purchase one because the HTPC will soon have this functionality, I consider the DVD-Audio player as one more external component that is (or soon will be) obsoleted by my HTPC. That's a total of 4 (right now) and soon (enough) it will be 5. How's that for "as few components as possible"?

Unhappily, the analog output from SACD and DVD-A would go through ADC to DAC stages before exiting, which is unacceptable. Thus direct analog pass-through with volume control would be helpful for those SACD and DVD-A players that don't have it built in. Again, this would only be necessary for SACD if we get DVD-A drivers.Which we will, soon enough, I believe. You're right again, in principle - analog pass-through with volume control but without A>D>A conversion would be ideal, but soon it will only be an issue for SACD, and for me, there's not enough content available yet for me to seriously invest in SACD anyway, so, again, for the mainstream folks, the HTPC is a great solution; it's I/O limitation only effect those of you who have to be early adopters of every new format. By the time these formats are a little more mature, I'm quite confident that the HTPC (as a pre/pro) will be as well.

Also, lets not go half way with an inexpensive card. I want RME, Lynx or 1010 level playback.Easy there, big fella - just 'cause it's inexpensive don't make it CHEAP. Last I checked, it was using the same (albeit a newer, upgraded version of the) DSP that the 410 uses, AND it has better specs than either the 410 or the 1010LT. That said, I'd love it if we could talk RME into doing an HT version of the DIGI96. I'd plunk down my hard-earned cash in a heartbeat if it offered the same CPL functionality of the 410/Revo only with better sound and more I/O options. Until then, my Revo-based HTPC sounds damned good. Perhaps not quite in the same league as the serious, tweaky mega-buck high-end gear, but nevertheless a huge step up from premium mid-fi (Denon, Onkyo, Marantx, Sony ES, Pioneer Elite, etc.) and even, I believe, a step up from entry-level high-end (Rotel, Adcom, etc.) I'm talking here and now - with a $99 sound card. C'mon, Bill - a little credit/enthusiasm where it's due! :)

Cliff Watson

03-13-03, 12:47 PM

”Also, lets not go half way with an inexpensive card. I want RME, Lynx or 1010 level playback.”

I’m sure that some time in the future there will be an "expensive" model so we can get your money too. ;)

Cliff Watson

03-13-03, 01:28 PM

”I agree taht that would be ideal, and I look forward to the day that it's a reality, but just because we don't yet have that doesn't invalidate the HTPC as a preamp/processor. For a great many people whose systems aren't that complex, I think it's a reality NOW. And for those people whose systems are that complex... so it has some I/O issues big deal - there's a workaround.”

An easy and inexpensive work around for multiple analog inputs to the single analog input on Revo is the Radio Shack Stereo A/V Selector (15-1977) with 4 in / 2 out for $39.95.

The A/V Selector is a learning device that can be used with your existing remote control for VCR, Satellite Receivers, DVD player, TV, etc. and you don’t have to leave your seat to change inputs. It also converts between composite video and S-Video.

ElvisIncognito

03-13-03, 01:30 PM

I just happened to stumble upon this while visiting RME's website...

ASIO is a trademark of Steinberg Media Technologies AG.

I already had a browser window open to Steinberg's site (what a strange coincidence!) as a result of my inquiry here: http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16244

So... from http://www.steinberg.net/en/ps/start/steinberg_solution/technology/index.php?sid=2ba1b7ace0cbc4724c4ab166ba2a79ca
ASIO: Steinberg's low latency, high performance audio standard

The Audio Stream Input/Output (ASIO) architecture forms the backbone of VST. ASIO addresses any needs a professional audio recording solution might have. It does this by supporting variable bit depths and sample rates, multi-channel operation and synchronization. As a result, the user gets low latency, high performance, easy set up and stable audio recording within VST.

The entire system becomes controllable and offers complete and immediate access to the audio system's capabilities. Since its introduction, ASIO has become a supported standard by many leading audio hardware manufacturers - for good reason.

Note: VST = "Virtual Studio Technology" another Steinberg technology which is described on the same (Steinberg) page linked above.

Neuner

03-13-03, 03:31 PM

I've been very successful from the beginning in using my HTPC's multi-channel soundcard to provide audio to my amps. I've had no troubles setting it up.

I have the Turtlebeach Santacruz 5.1 card and 6 channels of 100watts to drive my 6 speakers. I use this for watching TV, CD playing, DVD viewing, 'all-the-above', XBox, you name it.

I have setup my HTPC using an X10 RF remote/mouse. This has been very easy to operate, and you don't need to point it in any specific direction. I set up all of the modes volume controls to increase or decrease the Main volume directly and not the inputs. This works incredibly well. No matter what application I'm using, even if it's not the correct one for the remote, it controls the volume.

I've been very impressed with the sound quality. The Santa Cruz is much better than the fortissimo II I was using. However, I am very much looking forward to getting the new Revolution.

I'm really interested in a future endeavor to have multi-channel decoding of input signals such as for the XBox, HD receivers.

thomasamiller

03-13-03, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Cliff Watson
An easy and inexpensive work around for multiple analog inputs to the single analog input on Revo is the Radio Shack Stereo A/V Selector (15-1977) with 4 in / 2 out for $39.95.
[/B]

Does sending a signal through one of these a/v selectors degrade the signal at all? I have always wondered about this.

ElvisIncognito

03-13-03, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by Neuner
I've been very impressed with the sound quality. The Santa Cruz is much better than the fortissimo II I was using.Thanks for the post! Nice to hear another success story! Have you compared the SQ against any actual consumer audio (non-computer) gear? If so, what did you compare with and what were the results?

Neuner

03-13-03, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
Have you compared the SQ against any actual consumer audio (non-computer) gear? If so, what did you compare with and what were the results?

I've never used SPDIF pass-thru or a stand alone DVD player to receiver. I just never saw a use for it.

I have directly compared my CD player to my HTPC playing CD's with both connected straight to my amps and to the same speakers. With the fortissimo there was a degradation in quality, but the Santa Cruz matched the stand alone in my opinion. I'm not an audiophile, but do notice differences more so than the typical listener. I'm anxious to give the revolution a whirl.

Cliff Watson

03-13-03, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by thomasamiller
Does sending a signal through one of these a/v selectors degrade the signal at all? I have always wondered about this.

No more that using the switching in a preamp/receiver.

ElvisIncognito

03-13-03, 06:06 PM

One known issue for the HTPC-as-preamp/processor trailblazers (the ones who are running analog out directly into power amps) is amplifier "turn-on thump". One way to deal with this (as advocated by Cliff) is to be careful about your power up/power down sequence. But there are certainly more elegant methods (ones that can be done in Girder macros and/or via remote. One such example is shown in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=225197

Has anyone else found (and actually implemented) a good workaround for this problem? Or for other problems? Please post your best tips & tricks here for those who may follow in our footsteps. :)

MurrayW

03-14-03, 12:05 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
[B]I understand. Personally, I don't subscribe to any of DirecTV's HD channels (there's so little content available that I just can't yet justify the hardware & monthly costs.) I find that for all SD content from DirecTV, CSII is fantastic, but your point is well made. Thanks for the input.Don't believe [B]

Actually, I don't subscribe to any HD channels, but I do get HDNet. I'll admit it the main attraction to DirecTV for me is the NFL Ticket -- can't beat sitting back on a Sunday and getting to watch any game that you want to see!

Thanks for starting this thread. It will help me make a decision on what I should do for my audio.

Murray

Neuner

03-14-03, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
Has anyone else found (and actually implemented) a good workaround for this problem? Or for other problems? Please post your best tips & tricks here for those who may follow in our footsteps. :)

I don't have any tricks. The Fortissimo had a double click when it changed from stereo to 5.1 and when it powered down or up, but it really wasn't a damaging 'Thump'. The Santa Cruz is clean with no thumps or cracks. Are the M-audio line like this?

Bill Gaw2

03-14-03, 09:26 AM

Good suggestion on the switcher Cliff.
For those who have heard both the REVO and the 1010, is the REVO equivalent sound wise, better or worse?
Cliff: Waiting for the high end card with all the do-dads. If its cheap, sop much the better for my Scotch blood. After all, I got into HTPC because I wanted to get out of the high end "replace every piece of equipment each year" mentality. The HTPC is the way to do it, except that they keep bringing out new video, HD, sound, USB, fire wire, etc., cards, so there goes the merry go round again. At least its cheaper.
Waiting patiently for volume control, DVD-A and processing of external AC-3.
Bill

ElvisIncognito

03-14-03, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Bill Gaw2
I'm not sure how good the REVO card is as I haven't had one to evaluate. Tried getting one through DC Audio but nobody answered my email.

. . .

For those who have heard both the REVO and the 1010, is the REVO equivalent sound wise, better or worse?Well, since Cliff didn't take the bait on that one, either :D I'm going to try the direct approach...

Cliff (or Kei) - could somebody please loan Dr. Gaw a Revo so that he can review it and post his findings. (In this thread would be nice, Bill! :D) Thanks!

Bill Gaw2

03-14-03, 11:41 AM

Yes, please, unless there is something better coming along in the near future, hint, hint!!!

Cliff Watson

03-14-03, 12:04 PM

”For those who have heard both the REVO and the 1010, is the REVO equivalent sound wise, better or worse?”

I’ll get in trouble for this but here goes. I’ve never liked the 1010 for home theater and IMO the Revo sounds better.

ElvisIncognito

03-14-03, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Cliff Watson
I’ll get in trouble for this but here goes. I’ve never liked the 1010 for home theater and IMO the Revo sounds better. Wouldn't want anyone to get in trouble... why don't you go ahead and delete the post and deny ever posting it. (You can dismiss my quote above as "that Elvis guy is such a prankster!" :D)

ElvisIncognito

03-14-03, 07:07 PM

In re-reading this thread, I noticed that, although it has been mentioned, there has been (up to now) no actual link posted to the thread "High-End Analogue Soundcard Shootout (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236215)".

Though it's focused on two-channel audio, and the analog outputs of the sound cards are being routed to a preamp (rather than directly to power a amp), this thread nevertheless shows the level of sound quality that is possible with an HTPC. If you haven't yet read that thread, I highly recommend it.

Phat Phreddy

03-15-03, 01:59 AM

BTW I know of someone who has successfully written and used a real time speaker correction filter... it was only for WAV files and obviously requires a good mic etc for the filter creation side... shal I bug him to open source on it ?? Would others perhaps take up the flag and make an output plug in for MC ??Does the pope sh** in the woods??? VERY cool! Well Don is thinking of making a commercial application out of this and so does not want to open it at this time...

He has put some info up here http://home.pacbell.net/donwm

mcplaza

03-15-03, 12:10 PM

Hi, my HTPC is working fine, only a little CPU bottleneck using ffdshow.

My setup:

Asus P3V4X, 256MB SDRAM 133, PIII 800MHz
HD:ATA100 Barracuda 40GB (5400), HD ATA133 Maxtor 740X 80GB 7200)
ATI All in Wonder 7500;
DVD ROM Creative 8x
Sound Blaster Live 5.1 (MP3)
Wireless Keyb/ Mouse + Sony Stick/Mouse reader
PCI USB2.0 Host

Connections:

SPDIF from SBLive to receiver - Sony STR DE-925 (DD, DTS, PCM)
SPDIF from AIW to receiver (DD, PCM)
Analog Stereo from SBLive to receiver
SVideo from AIW to TV set (Sony 29")
VGA from AIW to Sanyo PLV-Z1

SW:

Windows XP SP1;
Powerstrip (960x540 1:1 pixel mapping)

Player:

Zoomplayer or BSPLayer with Windvd Video Renderer, Power DVD Audio renderer and ffdshow posprocessing

My opinion abou HTPC

Pros:

Image Quality (progr. scan + 1:1 pix map)
Flexibility
Mult-functional (DVR, DVD, Divx, Audio)
Configurable (ffdshow, dscaler,...)
Upgradable

Cons:

User enemy, no one can start it the right way (so its not a replacement yet)
Very hard to setup
Consumes a lot of CPU and generates to much heat,
Stetically deficient
Noise

rgds,
MCP.

jin

03-15-03, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Neuner
I don't have any tricks. The Fortissimo had a double click when it changed from stereo to 5.1 and when it powered down or up, but it really wasn't a damaging 'Thump'. The Santa Cruz is clean with no thumps or cracks. Are the M-audio line like this?

Beware my revo exhibits an EXTREMELY loud thump, it is quite alarming and scary with the subwoofer. i hope someone knows a way to eliminate or minimize this

Cliff Watson

03-15-03, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Neuner
I don't have any tricks. The Fortissimo had a double click when it changed from stereo to 5.1 and when it powered down or up, but it really wasn't a damaging 'Thump'. The Santa Cruz is clean with no thumps or cracks. Are the M-audio line like this?

Are you using S/PDIF output or multichannel analog?

Cliff Watson

03-15-03, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by jin
Beware my revo exhibits an EXTREMELY loud thump, it is quite alarming and scary with the subwoofer. i hope someone knows a way to eliminate or minimize this

The same way that audiophiles do it with high end audio components. You turn off the amp before the computer and tune it on after the PC has started.

Bill Gaw2

03-16-03, 08:50 AM

Cliff is correct. One should always turn on equipment beginning with the sources and working towards the amplifiers and backwards for turning off, starting from the amps. Also, hook your computer up to an uninterruptible power supply so it won't go off with a power failure.
Cliff: Now you have me intrigued about the REVO sounding better than the 1010. If so, it would be ahead of 95% of the high end DACS out there, and all for a miniscule amount. If you won't get into trouble, can you say whether the new M-Audio pro external box processor is close. I don't mind purchasing the REVO for review purposes, especially at the price, but its building more interconnectswith those damn mini-jacks that's the problem.
Bill

ElvisIncognito

03-16-03, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Bill Gaw2
Cliff: Now you have me intrigued about the REVO sounding better than the 1010. If so, it would be ahead of 95% of the high end DACS out there, and all for a miniscule amount.Bill- Have you seen these Rightmark benchmarks?
16 bit/44.1KHz (http://terratec.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Revo1644.htm)
24 bit/96KHz (http://terratec.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Revo2496.htm)
Originally posted by Bill Gaw2
its building more interconnectswith those damn mini-jacks that's the problem.As to "those damn mini-jacks", have you thought about the gauge of the pins on the 410/1010LT's connector? Certainly not up to audiophile standards.

I do appreciate where you're coming from on the patch cables, though. And it was for this very reason that I ordered "Y" cables (1M-2F - I'll be snipping off and using the 2 females) to solder directly to the Revo so that I get a better connection and and I'll be able to use standard patch cables. The patch cables actually arrived Friday, but sadly, they were not as shown on the manufacturer's website (and they look cheap & tacky so they're going back.)

As soon as I get the right cables, and complete the mod (and test the card), I'd be happy to send you my Revo temporarily for an eval. (If you can wait a week or so and if you promise to turn it around pretty quickly.) Alternatively, if you want to spend an extra $30-40 on the mod, you could mod a Revo yourself (probably wouldn't take you much more time than you'd spend fab'ing cables with "those damn mini-jacks") in the hopes that it'd be "a keeper". If you decide to do so, LMK - I've already done the legwork on sourcing the necessary cables. Decent cables- at a good price. (Now if I can just get them to send me something that matches the damned picture!)

Cliff- When I ordered these cables, I only ordered 5 of them. (i.e. 5 pairs of RCA jacks) I intentionally left out the "Mic" jack, but then it occured to me that I might be able to use this jack as a second analog input. Is the "Mic" jack a stereo jack? (Sorry if this is an RTFM question.) If so, (that's probably enough justification to purchase an extra cable/pair of jacks, but) can CSII still be applied to a signal coming in to this jack?

Cliff Watson

03-16-03, 12:20 PM

”As to "those damn mini-jacks", have you thought about the gauge of the pins on the 410/1010LT's connector? Certainly not up to audiophile standards.”

This obsession with “size” has got to be a male thing. :D

What audiophile standards? Have you ever looked at the output stage of an audiophile preamp? The AP preamps that I have seen all use jumper wires on the circuit board instead of a circuit trace for the signal path and that wire is usually smaller than the pins on the 410/1010LT connector.

”I do appreciate where you're coming from on the patch cables, though. And it was for this very reason that I ordered "Y" cables (1M-2F - I'll be snipping off and using the 2 females) to solder directly to the Revo so that I get a better connection and and I'll be able to use standard patch cables.”

So you are going to connect your high end cables directly to the signal trace on the printed circuit board that has a cross sectional area that is at least a 100 times smaller than the minijack contacts?

You have to understand that this is a low current, low voltage (line level) circuit we have here and a “garden hose” circuit path is not needed or required.

”Cliff- When I ordered these cables, I only ordered 5 of them. (i.e. 5 pairs of RCA jacks) I intentionally left out the "Mic" jack, but then it occured to me that I might be able to use this jack as a second analog input. Is the "Mic" jack a stereo jack? (Sorry if this is an RTFM question.) If so, (that's probably enough justification to purchase an extra cable/pair of jacks, but) can CSII still be applied to a signal coming in to this jack?”

I don’t advise using the “mic” input for analog audio because the SNR of the mic processor is 18dB lower than the real analog input.

Bill Gaw2

03-16-03, 01:08 PM

Didn't mean quality, or size in the masculine sense. I make up my own interconnects using Flat silver foil and its work to make up the interconnects just for a possible one shot trial. On the other hand if I purchase a card it may be worthwhile to do some soldering directly to the board. Will think about it. I just can't believe the REVO could sound any better than the 1010 does in my system.
Elvis, thanks fror the offer, but I have several projects going now, and wouldn't be able to do a review until at least May.
Bill

ElvisIncognito

03-16-03, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Cliff Watson
The AP preamps that I have seen all use jumper wires on the circuit board instead of a circuit trace for the signal path and that wire is usually smaller than the pins on the 410/1010LT connector.
. . .
So you are going to connect your high end cables directly to the signal trace on the printed circuit board that has a cross sectional area that is at least a 100 times smaller than the minijack contacts?The same argument could be made for virtually all electronics in general - including power amps and the crossover PCBs in speakers. If "garden hose" speaker wire had no effect on sound, we'd all be using 24 gauge zip-cord.
You have to understand that this is a low current, low voltage (line level) circuit we have here and a “garden hose” circuit path is not needed or required.Your point is well made, and relative to speaker cable this is a low-current line-level connection, however, differences in materials, their gauge, and their contact points DO produce an audible difference, in my experience. Besides...
1) mini-jacks are more prone to issues due to dirty contacts than RCA connections
2) mini-jacks are far more prone to failure than RCA connections
3) the points of contact within a mini-jack are miniscule - akin to a knife-edge connector
4) the mini-jacks on the Revo are painfully close together, and finding decent 3.5mm-to-RCA connectors that fit properly, without putting stress on the connections at the board level is damned tough.
5) I will no longer be limited in my choices for interconnect cables between my preamp and my power amp.
6) It's going to look really cool! :D

I don’t advise using the “mic” input for analog audio because the SNR of the mic processor is 18dB lower than the real analog input. OK, but on a non-critical source (e.g. an FM tuner, etc.) this wouldn't be a big issue. Any other reasons you'd recommend against it? Is it a stereo input?

Cliff Watson

03-16-03, 06:42 PM

”The same argument could be made for virtually all electronics in general”

Then you agree that it’s valid?

”including power amps and the crossover PCBs in speakers. If "garden hose" speaker wire had no effect on sound, we'd all be using 24 gauge zip-cord.”

Typical audiophile diversion from the discussion at hand.

”3) the points of contact within a mini-jack are miniscule - akin to a knife-edge connector”

A knife-edge has a very large cross sectional area when compared the micron size of an output transistor junction.

”6) It's going to look really cool! :D”

Bingo! And that is what I want non-audiophile members to understand. We audiophiles do some crazy and unnecessary things to impress others and ourselves. Just the other day the UPS lady was very impressed with the “size” of my equipment. ;)

”OK, but on a non-critical source (e.g. an FM tuner, etc.) this wouldn't be a big issue.”

OYG, You admit to listening to FM and still claim to be an audiophile? :D

”Any other reasons you'd recommend against it?”

No

”Is it a stereo input?”

Yes

power

03-16-03, 09:01 PM

Elvis,

which cables did you finally decide on?

ElvisIncognito

03-16-03, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by Cliff Watson
Then you agree that it’s valid?I do. (But then I'm a pragmatic and very practical audiophile. :D
A knife-edge has a very large cross sectional area when compared the micron size of an output transistor junction.Typical non-audiophile diversion from the topic at hand. ;) :D

Just the other day the UPS lady was very impressed with the “size” of my equipment. ;)ROFLMAO! It's a good point, though - right wrong or indifferent, we spend a lot of time and energy feeding the monkey.

ElvisIncognito

03-16-03, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by power
Elvis,

which cables did you finally decide on?
http://www.audiobahninc.com/prod/access/ACY1.gif
(Note that the picture is wrong - it's supposed to be 1M to 2F; this is a picture of the ACY2Q.)

I went with the ACY1Q, they're made by http://www.audiobahninc.com. I bought them from http://www.audiooutfitter.com because they were charging half as much as everyone else.

They seem to be made well: OFHC (Oxygen-free High-conductivity) copper, twisted pair RCA , double shielded- copper braid & aluminum mylar foil, gold plated jacks - all this for less than $3.50/pair - and the RCA jacks were just what I was looking for- all metal & not at all cheap looking.

Thing is, the picture is REALLY wrong, 'cause when they got here, instead of the cool metal jacks, they're cheap/cheesey molded translucent blue plastic. I'm really ticked about it, because anywhere you find these cables, they sell them in three different "grades". These were the lowest grade; there are no pictures available for the middle or high grade cables - anywhere - not even on Audiobahn's website. I even went so far as to contact ("Jason" in) their sales department and he assured me he'd send me pictures. When he failed to do so, I e-mailed their webmaster (who should have had the pix up in the first place!) He blew me off, too! So I took a chance since the picture of the low grade version looked so good. Tomorrow, I'll have the president of the company on the phone.

Bill Gaw2

03-17-03, 08:29 AM

Cliff: So as far as the UPS lady is concerned, size does count. And she was very impressed with the size of your equipment? Well, what more can I say.

eggz

03-17-03, 08:58 AM

This isn't a pre/pro success story, but since this thread has degenerated into a discussion about equipment size ...

There hasn't been any talk here about the software side of using an HTPC as pre-amp. Since a pre-amp does lots of things besides switch between inputs (e.g. normalize signals so your CD and tuner sound about equally loud at same volume setting), how should the PC do that? This is especially problematic when outside CE devices, not just internal PC components, are involved. Also, would the ideal front end (UI) look like a modern A/V receiver (sort of like WinAmp on steroids) or more PC-ish like Main Lobby?

Sorry if this seems OT, I was just curious.

ElvisIncognito

03-17-03, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by eggz
Since a pre-amp does lots of things besides switch between inputs (e.g. normalize signals so your CD and tuner sound about equally loud at same volume setting), how should the PC do that?I've never owned a preamp that did that... is this something that has become common in recent years? If we ever get that "dream sound card" with multiple inputs and outputs, I would hope the control panel would provide that functionality.
Also, would the ideal front end (UI) look like a modern A/V receiver (sort of like WinAmp on steroids) or more PC-ish like Main Lobby?

Sorry if this seems OT, I was just curious. Really eggzellent input! (Sorry - couldn't resist!) Thanks for posting this question!

I'm actually pretty happy with the look/feel/layout of the Revo control panel (if it could just be controlled via Girder.) But, of course, if it could be Mario-ized, that would be even better! ;) If the people on the kvr-vst.com forum could be enlisted, I suspect the end result would look more like an AV receiver; I wouldn't complain about that if it had all the functionality we want/need, but it would be nice if it was skinnable so we could each personalize it.

It will be interesting to see how others feel about this; thanks again for bringing it up!

eggz

03-17-03, 01:43 PM

Elvis --

Thanks for your "eggzellent" response.

I believe that gains of different inputs are handled differently (especially true way back when with phono cartridges) -- I'm very willing to be proven wrong. There is also all the DAC and filtering in a modern pre-amp, but hopefully the "dream sound card" would handle all that.

If that is true, however, than the main challenge to the HTPCer is implementing the control interface. I have tried lots of HTPC front ends, and none has been very satisfying to me. A good pre-amp or A/V receiver offers a tremendous amount of control in a pretty simple user interface, without having to dig through many different layers. Most software, in comparison, may let me select from among different inputs but doesn't allow me to adjust volume, bass, etc. without going to another app.

I totally agree with the need for skins. If we build HTPCs so we can customize them, it doesn't seem to make much sense to have a single look-and-feel. Changing skins, however, probably should mean more than just changing the artwork but leaving the same limited controls.

ElvisIncognito

03-18-03, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by eggz
I believe that gains of different inputs are handled differently (especially true way back when with phono cartridges)Yes, the phono input is handled differently, but this is not solely due to gain - there is also the RIAA equalization/decoding (the dirty little secret that vinyphiles don't like to talk about- a bass compression encoding process.) So this is a very special case. Outside of this, I don't believe there is any sort of gain matching circuitry in most preamps. If anyone knows otherwise, please post.
If that is true, however, than the main challenge to the HTPCer is implementing the control interface.That and input selection and processing of external digital sources and...... :)

krasmuzik

03-18-03, 11:59 AM

My proceed PAV lets me set the relative gain of each input - covers your VCR player being different than the CD player.

ElvisIncognito

03-18-03, 03:30 PM

Well, there you go, then... you were right, eggz! :)
Thanks, krag!

So, how important is this feature? Shall we add it to the list?

Chazotta

03-19-03, 03:18 AM

Cliff,
I note your coments above regarding ElvisI's proposed REVO modifications. What is the (or what could be a) recommended cable setup from the REVO to a power amplifier, such as the Classe CA-401 (www.classeaudio.com/Poweramp%20CA+CAMs/PowerCA401.html )? Assume that for the moment i'm only interested in stereo 2 channel (but I assume in any event, the same principle(s) would apply in respect of the other channels).

I have been using (up to this point, for about a week) a VERY cheap 3.5mm RCA lead running into my Classe amp. I can't believe how good this sound card is. I'm wondering whether getting a better cable (and if so what/how) will make much of a difference? Like I said, when I plugged it in, I just couldn't believe it. This thing is on par with my Vimak digital preamp/CD transport combo and my Meridian 561 and possibly is better..... final conlusions to be made upon further testing.

ElvisI, how is the mod going, any report yet?

Mark

power

03-19-03, 03:58 AM

i agree,

from the very beginning i knew this card was well above par, it does sound excellent! I would certainly be open to some modifications myself to allow for higher quality cables to be employed by connecting directly to the sound card.

The moulded plastic heads on the "Koss" cables i tried out for a day were too big to allow for hooking everything up and this is already a cheap cable! I did manage to rig it but this is less than desireable. More spacing between the minijacks would be better... The RS gold series minijack to dual rca cables may fit (haven't tried nor could i find them). Regardless, i would prefer a higher end approach to squeeze every bit of improved sound quality this card can muster:) I'm not a "cables" guy myself but i do like quality cables that are well built and have the appropriate materials. Size/thickness does matter when it comes to equipment (i mean cables) as Cliff explained earlier with the UPS lady and all.....

;)

Branxx

03-19-03, 06:24 AM

I have three different HTPCs and probably only one of them fully qualifies ‘as preamp/processor success story’.

I put this particular HTPC for my daughter as a part of her teenage dream room. Main PC components are:

ASUS CUSC2 Motherborad
P3 850MHz Processor
512MB Memory
M-Audio Delta410 Soundcard
Hauppauge NOVA-T, DVB-T Received card
ATI Radeon 8500
Sony GDW-900 Wide Screen monitor
Windows XP
PowerDVD
Sonic Foundry SIREN Jukebox

What is interesting is the way this PC is integrated with the audio system. She has a loft room with speakers built-in to the furniture cabinets. I opted for Genelec 1029A ( http://www.genelec.com/products/1029a/1029a.php) small active monitors accompanied with Genelec 1091A ( http://www.genelec.com/products/history/1091a.php) subwoofers. The each monitor has bass management built in so they presents to the sound source as full range speakers.

In total the room has 6 1029A monitors and 3 x 1091A subs. All monitors have balanced inputs. I used an active balancer ( http://www.genelec.com/products/di8a/di8a.php) that turns unbalanced signal coming out of Delta410 into a balanced.

My choice of Genelec spakers was motivated by their compact size, sound that is much bigger than their size, them being active, balanced inputs (some speakers have cables approx 15m), extremely solid build and them being readily available on the 2nd hand market (I only bought 1 pair new).

This system performs very well, especially since bass management drivers became available. The biggest problem is SIGNIFICANT LOUD POPS on power up/power down. I am reading that REVO has similar (design) fault. With the custom setup of this nature individually switching off 9 active speakers is not a practical option, so the HTPC stays on all the time (it has been on continuously for the last 15 months). She uses the PC for DVDs, TV, Music, homework, synchronise with her PocketPC Web mobile phone/MP3 player, Internet surfing, etc.

The other interesting HTPC is my Audio PC that is already described in detail in Carillon Audio PC: A Mini-Review ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=225412). It’s 2-channel audio performance is recently evaluated in High-End Analogue Soundcard Shootout: LynxTWO, RME DIGI96/8 PAD and Delta 1010 (LONG) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236215)

My third HTPC that drives the projector is connected via SPDIF so it does not qualify for this thread.

Drummerjohn

03-19-03, 09:07 AM

Shame this thread has lost the plot regarding results. But here are mine:

HTPC (relevant bits)
Epox 8RDA+ (nforce Soundstorm)
PowerDVD XP4.0

Receiver
Sony STR-DB 940

Speakers
Kef Q55.2s
Paradigm Sub (damn - forgotten model number)

PowerDVD outputs 6 channel through the 6 analogue outputs on my motherboard. Soundstorm offers individual levels and LFE cutoff freq.

The outputs goto to my 5.1 inputs on my amp. This does not however bypass the volume and balance controls of the Sony. You are not able to adjust any EQ or anything else in that matter on the 5.1 inputs.

It would appear the gain on the outputs of the Epox (or Nforce) chipset are very low. I have to ramp up the volume to twice that of any other input. This will of course give more noise and the outputs of the Epox are not quiet by any means.

Sound quality is ok - thats all I can say. Music sounds better but dynamics of film tend to be lost a little.

Films I used were:
Star Wars Ep1
Talking Heads- Stop Making Sense
Bugs Life

Just to add a comment to the Soundstorm capabilities - Soundstorm can take the PowerDVD analogue channels and then digitally re-encode them int DD 5.1. What this means to me is that I no longer get judder/stutter from using the SPdif out as selected through PowerDVD!

Drummerjohn

03-19-03, 09:19 AM

You all mention the M-Audio Revolution but has anyone looked at the Terratec Aureon Pace 7.1. It has the same ICE chip but with slightly better jack outputs, optical SPdif In/out, and onboard inputs. In fact the layout of the board is near identical.

Cheapest I have found delivered is £103.

In Europe the Terratec series of boards are rated very highly - just as highly as the M-audio. I currently have the Terratec EWX 24/96 which carries an ICE chip and the sound quality is superb (110db SNR!).

It has individual channel management - but no bass management.

I reckon this will be better than the Revo for us peeps in Europe.

Looks like I will be getting one of these and I will let you know what its like.

uk.steve

03-19-03, 11:10 AM

Could someone please explain to me how you connect the revo http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Audio/revolution.asp or the http://www.terratec.de/images/bilderpool/Aureon_Space_Platine_L.jpg using analogue connections?!

At the moment Im looking at Denon 1803 http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/avr1803/index.htm or the http://www.avland.co.uk/yamaha/rxv730/index.htm but to be honest Im totaly confused with all these connection types etc!

Judging from the specs the Denon 1803 has 8 inputs and the Yamaha has 7 so I would have to look at the http://www.avland.co.uk/yamaha/rxv740/index.htm instead ?

:(

ElvisIncognito

03-19-03, 11:28 AM

uk.steve-

This thread is all about using an HTPC as a preamp/processor. No receiver is required (since a preamp/processor represents one of three components that are integrated into a receiver.) You can go directly from the Revo's analog outputs to a power amp (such as the Outlaw 7100 (https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7100.html) and get far better sound than any Denon or Yamaha receiver can ever give you.

As for connection method, you would use cables such as these:
http://www.radioshack.com/images/ProductCatalog/ProductImage/42/42-2551.jpg
to go from the Revo's output jacks directly to the input jacks on a multi-channel power amp.
http://www.digitalconnection.com/spec_images/revo.jpg
Green = L/R front
Orange = center/subwoofer
Black = L/R surround and
Silver = center surround(s)

ElvisIncognito

03-19-03, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by Chazotta
ElvisI, how is the mod going, any report yet?
I'm still duking it out with the manufacturer over the discrepancy between the pix and the actual product I received. When you get right down to it, though, they are quality cables, so I'm raising a big stink over the aesthetic qualities of $25 worth of cables. I'm about ready to be done with it and just use what they shipped me. Today is the deadline - I'll either find out that they're going to replace them, or I'm breaking out the solder gun.
Originally posted by power
The RS gold series minijack to dual rca cables may fit (haven't tried nor could i find them).Serge- the RS gold cables I went with were the ones that have a right-angle connector on the 3.5mm plug end. The cables were thick, nice looking and seemed to be well made, but the jacks were too thick and had to be shaved down. I'm unhappy with the overall solution as it still puts stress on the little (colored) plastic mini-jack boxes (and therefore, presumably on the connection point at the board.)
Originally posted by Branxx
I put this particular HTPC for my daughter as a part of her teenage dream room.
[SNIP]
This system performs very well, especially since bass management drivers became available. The biggest problem is SIGNIFICANT LOUD POPS on power up/power down. I am reading that REVO has similar (design) fault. With the custom setup of this nature individually switching off 9 active speakers is not a practical option, so the HTPC stays on all the time (it has been on continuously for the last 15 months). She uses the PC for DVDs, TV, Music, homework, synchronise with her PocketPC Web mobile phone/MP3 player, Internet surfing, etc.Interesting post, Branxx - thank you! Also an interesting workaround for the turn-on thump problem. What are your thoughts on the performance of this system? (Certainly seems as though you're determined to raise a future audiophile! ;))

The other interesting HTPC is my Audio PC that is already described in detail in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=225412 ( [url)] Carillon Audio PC: A Mini-Review[/url]. It’s 2-channel audio performance is recently evaluated in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236215 ( [url)] High-End Analogue Soundcard Shootout: LynxTWO, RME DIGI96/8 PAD and Delta 1010 (LONG)[/url]You don't run the Carillon's analogue outs directly into a power amp, though, do you? (Have you ever? If so, how was it?)
Originally posted by Drummerjohn
Shame this thread has lost the plot regarding results. But here are mine:

HTPC (relevant bits)
Epox 8RDA+ (nforce Soundstorm)
Thanks for the post. Sounds as though the nforce card doesn't give you the necessary control over channel levels, bass management, etc?

has anyone looked at the Terratec Aureon Pace 7.1. It has the same ICE chip but with slighly better jack outputs, optical SPdif In/out, and onboard inputs. In fact the layout of the board is near identical.

Cheapest I have found delivered is £103.

In Europe the Terratec series of boards are rated very highly - just as highly as the M-audio. I currently have the Terratec EWX 24/96 which carries an ICE chip and the sound quality is superb (110db SNR!).

It has individual channel management - but no bass management.The optical input sounds nice, though we have no software to take advantage of it. (Unless maybe the AC3Filter on Sourceforge will...? But even if so, we'd still need DTS and we'd still be stuck with a 375 Hz crossover point for bass management!) Bass management is a must for me personally, so I couldn't use this. Hopefully a card combining the Revo's control panel and the Aureon's I/O capabilities will arrive soon.

Looks like I will be getting one of these and I will let you know what its like.Looking forward to your report. :)

ccclapp

03-19-03, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
You can go directly from the Revo's analog outputs to a power amp (such as the Outlaw 7100 (https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7100.html) and get far better sound than any Denon or Yamaha receiver can ever give you.

...Elvis, slightly off topic (again;) ) but, you walk and talk (post and reply) like an audiophile:p , is this amp up to par (@ $900 that would be nice)? I have a Lexicon MC12 and Theta Dreadnought II, but want to do a 2nd configuration with PC pre/pro and another multi channel amp. What should one expect from an amp like this, other than less power?

More on topic: One neat thing I am doing (to enable multi HT/whole house audio) is I put an e-bay Extron Crosspoint HVA matrix switcher in between my Lexicon pre/pro and my Theta amp. Once I settle on a multi-channel PC audio card (or now using the analogue out on my MA Audiophile 2496) I will be able to switch between the Lexicon output and the PC analog output being sent to my amp (or any of several amps). This would allow me to do an AB test of the EXACT same sources and amplification (by means of 2 presets on the Extron switcher). I am not fully set up, but this may be helpful to this thread:)

Off topic again;): My first attempt at connecting the Extron between the Pre/pro and the amp resulted in poor sound vs direct Pre/pro to amp??? I understand the Extron audio switching is very high quality and there SHOULD be no sound variance. Extron Spec (http://extron.com/product/product.asp?id=crosspoint128&subtype=9&view=spec) Do you experienced audio guys have any comments about this? If too off topic PM will do.

If I get this working well, i will do some tests for us all (after vacation:) ).

--Caleb

ElvisIncognito

03-19-03, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by ccclapp
...Elvis, slightly off topic (again;) ) but, you walk and talk (post and reply) like an audiophile:p , is this amp up to par (@ $900 that would be nice)?I even quack like an audiophile... :D

While I haven't personally heard the Outlaw 7100, the 750 was (essentially) made for them by ATI and was (essentially) an ATI 1505. As an ATI 1505 owner, I can certainly vouch for its sound quality, and I extend a great deal of respect to Outlaw as a result. If I was in the market for a multi-channel amp and I couldn't find a decent one used, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase from Outlaw.

One neat thing I am doing (to enable multi HT/whole house audio) is I put an e-bay Extron Crosspoint HVA matrix switcher in between my Lexicon pre/pro and my Theta amp. Once I settle on a multi-channel PC audio card (or now using the analogue out on my MA Audiophile 2496) I will be able to switch between the Lexicon output and the PC analog output being sent to my amp (or any of several amps). This would allow me to do an AB test of the EXACT same sources and amplification (by means of 2 presets on the Extron switcher). I am not fully set up, but this may be helpful to this thread:)I've made my thoughts regarding ABX testing well known (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=1628025#post1628025), but I'll allow that many put great faith in it, so I guess it does have it's place. It'll be interesting to see how this comes out.

My first attempt at connecting the Extron between the Pre/pro and the amp resulted in poor sound vs direct Pre/pro to amp??? I understand the Extron audio switching is very high quality and there SHOULD be no sound variance.But how could you ABX test the difference between with and without hte Extron - if you need the Extron to ABX test.....? :D What a paradox! ;)

do you experienced audio guys have any comments about this?Maybe it's because you got it on ebay???

If I get this working well, i will do some tests for us all (after vacation:) ).Thanks, Caleb. All joking aside, I look forward to reading your results.

BTW- Extron link still doesn't work (for me) even after your edit.

uk.steve

03-19-03, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
uk.steve-

This thread is all about using an HTPC as a preamp/processor. No receiver is required (since a preamp/processor represents one of three components that are integrated into a receiver.) You can go directly from the Revo's analog outputs to a power amp (such as the Outlaw 7100 (https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7100.html) and get far better sound than any Denon or Yamaha receiver can ever give you.

As for connection method, you would use cables such as these:
http://www.radioshack.com/images/ProductCatalog/ProductImage/42/42-2551.jpg
to go from the Revo's output jacks directly to the input jacks on a multi-channel power amp.
http://www.digitalconnection.com/spec_images/revo.jpg
Green = L/R front
Orange = center/subwoofer
Black = L/R surround and
Silver = center surround(s)

Thanks for the pictures, I understand how the connections works now :)

I dont have a large budget for audio at the moment thanks to my beloved's new car :(. Which route do you think is best?

a) Buy a 6.1 receiver (max price £400 ($600) and use optical out from my htpc
b) Buy a multichannel amp (do you need to buy two?) with 6 or 7 inputs? and use the output from a revo or terratec into the multichannel poweramp. Can you get decent multichannel poweramps with 6 or 7 inputs for $600 (£400)? - I guess you would plug the subwoofer into the multichannel amp too?.

:confused:

I understand going the multichannel route is risky as its still in its infancy, but in the future should give us the most flexibility.

ccclapp

03-19-03, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
I even quack like an audiophile... :D
It'll be interesting to see how this comes out.
But how could you ABX test the difference between with and without hte Extron - if you need the Extron to ABX test.....? :D What a paradox! ;)

BTW- Extron link still doesn't work (for me) even after your edit.

...no, the Extron switcher stays in both AB, it switches the inputs going to the amp between A=Lexicon Pre/Pro and B=PC Pre/pro, maybe I screwed up my original description.

...strange the link to Extron works when I click it on the post?? I'll try again

http://extron.com/product/product.asp?id=crosspoint128&subtype=9&view=spec

Thanks for your feedback!

--Caleb

ElvisIncognito

03-19-03, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by uk.steve
Which route do you think is best?

a) Buy a 6.1 receiver (max price £400 ($600) and use optical out from my htpc
b) Buy a multichannel amp (do you need to buy two?) with 6 or 7 inputs? and use the output from a revo or terratec into the multichannel poweramp. Can you get decent multichannel poweramps with 6 or 7 inputs for $600 (£400)?Option (b) will definitely get you better sound assuming you can find a decent multi channel amp within your budget.

Note: 5/6/7 channel amps are relative newcomers and therefore scarce on the used market. I'm sure that once we all start using 6 surround speakers instead of 4, and we all have to upgrade to 9 channel amps then they'll become more plentifully available as used gear. ;) :D But keep in mind that a 4 channel amp and a 2 channel amp will get the job done just as well. In general, though, I suspect you'll need some pretty good luck to find 6 or 7 channels channels of amplification for $600.

I guess you would plug the subwoofer into the multichannel amp too? Most people used active subwoofers (the amp is built in.)

I understand going the multichannel route is risky as its still in its infancy, but in the future should give us the most flexibility. Going HTPC as pre/pro is what's a bit risky- you give up a lot of flexibility with respect to inputs and outputs (and internal processing of external inputs, etc.) But you get the satisfaction of knowing that you are a true trailblazer. Five years from now, when everybody is doing it, you can say, "Oh, yeah - I've been doing that since 2003, and let me tell ya- in MY day......." :D

BTW- it's good forum etiquette to strip out the IMG tags from quoted posts... :)

ElvisIncognito

03-19-03, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by ccclapp
...no, the Extron switcher stays in both AB, it switches the inputs going to the amp between A=Lexicon Pre/Pro and B=PC Pre/pro, maybe I screwed up my original description.No, you didn't. It was a joke. You said there was some sound degradation when the Extron was between the pre/pro and the power amp (as opposed to a direct connection bypassing the Extron.) I was saying, "How can you tell there's degradation without ABX testing it?" (Which, of course, you need the Extron to do... kind of a good-natured slam against ABX testing. Get it?)

Drummerjohn

03-19-03, 05:39 PM

PowerDVD outputs 6 channel through the 6 analogue outputs on my motherboard.

Soundstorm offers individual levels and LFE cutoff freq.

Er... And who came up with a 375hz cutoff freq?

Thats way too high in most cases - thats like low vocal range.

So are you saying that you push anything under 375hz into your SUB?

Most subs do not efficiently reach that freq.

Please put me right if I've got the wrong end of the stick!

Cliff Watson

03-19-03, 05:45 PM

"Er... And who came up with a 375hz cutoff freq?"

Someone that likes to hear Barry White on a subwoofer.

A/Vspec

03-19-03, 05:57 PM

Managed to get my HTPC working as a Pre/Pro... actually I had no choice!!!!....... ;)

Sold my Rotel RSP-1066 a while back when I thought my B&K Ref50 was going to be shipped out. Well the B&K did not ship till today and the person I sold the Rotel to came and picked it up last Friday so I was left with no choice but to try and get my HTPC to work as the Pre/Pro along with all of its other duties like Hi-Def and DVD software decoding.

I had managed to get it to work with PowerDVD before... well sort of... it did not play to well with the old 900Mhz Athlon. Since then I have upgraded to a 1.4GHz Athlon so I gave it another shot and it works much better.

I also installed WinDVD Platinum and with it I managed to get DTS-ES (matrix) to work.

Now, for some reason the GameTheater XP does not let you input a 5.1 DD bitstream from other sources like my DTC-100 sat. So I can not decode 5.1 sources? This is a major set back.

I take it the other cards out there do let you input 5.1 from other sources?

Also the GameTheater only had one optical and one coax input and you have to select which one you want to use at a time so this is another set back.

Also bass management is very lacking and I even pulled my Rane EQ out of the basement to help my SVS subs with that.

Sounds pretty good though for using a PC as a Pre/Pro. Will have to try some A/B comparisons when my B&K shows up later this week.

-Mark
Home Theater Specialist
www.digitalvortex.com

Chazotta

03-19-03, 07:11 PM

Cliff, please, any cable recommendations for the REVO?

Mark

Cliff Watson

03-19-03, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by Chazotta
Cliff, please, any cable recommendations for the REVO?

Mark

I'm not getting into that dog fight.

netgeek

03-19-03, 09:13 PM

Personally, I'm still convinced that HTPC as a pre/pro won't be a reality until some of the specialized DSP chips used in AVRs get planted on plug-in cards for the PC. Please correct me if this assumption is wrong! What formats can currently be decoded entirely in software (e.g. Dolby Digital, DTS, etc.?) and at what processor utilization (%)? THEN there's the issue of room EQ, speaker compensation, bass management, and additional effects (like hall, theater, others along the lines of venue modeling) and all of these would best be done using a DSP. Cirrus Logic, Analog Devices, Zoran and others (TI, Motorola) have all got suitable solutions in one form or another - ranging from specialized to general-purpose implementations. The problem is STILL the licensing issues and the tremendous effort involved in productizing the thing for what is now a VERY small niche market. Once you're past the development/licensing costs - the $$ to manufacture the things would be trivial because the components themselves are relatively inexpensive.

So, what's the demand? What's the actual requirement? What's actual "essential" vs. "desirable"? Until these issues can be resolved I can't imagine any manfacturer taking the risk to stick their neck out and become a "pioneer" (noting that a great number of "pioneers" ended up face down with their backs full of arrows 8-)..........

Of course we could build it anyway - even as a grass-roots effort - but there really needs to be a consensus and a realistic game-plan.

Any comments and observations are most welcome!

Best regards,

Bill

Chazotta

03-19-03, 10:22 PM

I'm not getting into that dog fight.
What fight? I'm only asking for a recommendation on what might be a good cable to use with the REVO, using the 3.5mm plug/connector.

Bob Sorel

03-19-03, 10:26 PM

I'm not getting into that dog fight.

I'm with you, Cliff! I have been dodging bullets all week! :rolleyes:

Cliff Watson

03-19-03, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by Chazotta
What fight? I'm only asking for a recommendation on what might be a good cable to use with the REVO, using the 3.5mm plug/connector.

The fight that always starts over cables.

I paid $7 each for my cables. They have small mini-plug shells that fit well into the connectors, have gold plated connectors, and good shielding. Find a cable that meets all that and you will have a good cable for Revo.

KikeG

03-20-03, 02:52 AM

IMO there's no need to spend that much :)

ElvisIncognito

03-20-03, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by Chazotta
Cliff, please, any cable recommendations for the REVO?Mark- if you search through Cliff's previous posts, you'll find that he uses the Radio Shack gold cables. These of course, don't cost nearly enough or have the brand name prestige required by "true audiophiles" ;) so Cliff has taken a good bit of flack for this. IMO, they're a good choice & it is what I've been using, though, as I said, I bought the ones with the right-angle mini-plug heads and they were too fat & had to be shaved down. Monster makes a 3.5mm-to-dual RCA plug cable if you fell the need to have a "brand name" cable back there. (Never know when the UPS lady might check out your cables! :D)

ElvisIncognito

03-20-03, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Drummerjohn
PowerDVD outputs 6 channel through the 6 analogue outputs on my motherboard.
. . .
Er... And who came up with a 375hz cutoff freq?The author of AC3filter - it's still a work in progress.

Thats way too high in most cases - thats like low vocal range.Agreed.

So are you saying that you push anything under 375hz into your SUB?I don't, but users of AC3filter who check the box for "bass redirection" do.
Originally posted by Cliff Watson
"Er... And who came up with a 375hz cutoff freq?"

Someone that likes to hear Barry White on a subwoofer. ROFL!!!
Originally posted by HTspec
Now, for some reason the GameTheater XP does not let you input a 5.1 DD bitstream from other sources like my DTC-100 sat. So I can not decode 5.1 sources? This is a major set back.Yes, and one faced by all of us- the inability of an HTPC to decode from an external digital input. This can be done, using the aforementioned AC3filter, but it has the aforementioned bass redirect limitation (among others.) This open source filter is, nevertheless making great progress, and has some interesting functionality. I, for one, will be keeping an eye on it.

I take it the other cards out there do let you input 5.1 from other sources?Yes, but finding software to decode it is the challenge we face right now.

Also the GameTheater only had one optical and one coax input and you have to select which one you want to use at a time so this is another set back.Why would you need to use both simultaneously? How easy is it to switch between them? (That's another big challenge we face, as documented earlier in this thread.)

Sounds pretty good though for using a PC as a Pre/Pro. Will have to try some A/B comparisons when my B&K shows up later this week.Looking forward to hearing about it!
Originally posted by netgeek
Personally, I'm still convinced that HTPC as a pre/pro won't be a reality until some of the specialized DSP chips used in AVRs get planted on plug-in cards for the PC. Please correct me if this assumption is wrong! What formats can currently be decoded entirely in software (e.g. Dolby Digital, DTS, etc.?) and at what processor utilization (%)?Sorry, Bill, but you are, in fact, wrong. We have software decodes for Dolby Digital, DTS and a few of the flavors thereof. Check out the decode options on PowerDVD and WinDVD (Platinum) websites. Processor utilization is quite reasonable on my P4 2.4 GHz.

THEN there's the issue of room EQ, speaker compensation, bass management, and additional effects (like hall, theater, others along the lines of venue modeling) and all of these would best be done using a DSP.Not when they're easily done in software. Yes, room EQ (AC3filter DOES have a 12 band equalizer built in) and speaker correction would be very nice; bass management we have now, though only for the M-Audio Delta 410 and Revo. I think most of us could give a sh** less about hall/theater/etc. considering the excellent effects provided by Circle Surround II, DPL2, etc.

Cirrus Logic, Analog Devices, Zoran and others (TI, Motorola) have all got suitable solutions in one form or another - ranging from specialized to general-purpose implementations. The problem is STILL the licensing issues and the tremendous effort involved in productizing the thing for what is now a VERY small niche market.This is all done easily enough in software, and a P4 (and even PIII 1+ GHz) processors have plenty of horsepower without resorting to dedicated Cirrus/AD/Zoran chips which will one day become obsolete. Licensing is handled for you by the company sellihng the software that includes the decodes (i.e. Intervideo pays for the AC3/DTS licenses and passes the cost on to you when you buy WinDVD Platinum.)

bbadenov

03-20-03, 12:18 PM

My system would certainly qualify for the “HTPC as preamp” configuration. Over the last 9 months, I’ve built two separate HTPCs. The first was an experiment to see what I could get these things to do. The second system is a very serious effort to make over my entire system with a HTPC at the center. I am still tweaking this second system—and this will likely go on for some time. My judgment, thus far, is that the result is a (qualified) success.

The HTPC configuration is like so many others I’ve read about here.
DIGN HTPC Case with a Noritake Graphic VFD display
Asus P4PE MB; Pentium 4 2.4 GHz; 512 MB Ram;
ATI 9700 Pro with Zalman passive cooling
Pioneer DVD-106S; LiteOn CD Writer
Delta 410 Sound Card
HiDTV HDTV Tuner
WinTV-PVR (used as FM Tuner)
Windows XP Pro
Media Player 9
WinDVD 4 Platinum

I use the system for watching DVDs and watching/recording HDTV, and TV. I have jukeboxed many of my CDs and listen to them in 2-channel stereo. The system will also play and/or copy CDs using WMP9’s variable bit lossless codecs. The FM radio is also a nice-to-have feature as our public station plays, without a doubt, the most interesting music around.

I have spent an incredible amount of time and effort to make this system into a real piece of HiFi hardware. My main goal was to be able to listen to music/radio using only a remote control; without having to turn on a television or monitor. Girder saved me a lot in this effort. With Girder and a little bit of other self-written software, I use a Pronto remote for control and use the VFD display to see what’s playing (artist/album/song or radio station). I can peruse and select CDs from the jukebox and I can control/view volume settings. With the remote and Girder I can switch between CD/TV/HDTV/FM/DVD with the push of a single button. With this kind of automation, I feel that the HTPC is quite capable of taking over the switching capabilities of a preamp and integrating very well into a conventional HiFi system. But my HTPC is not a foolproof, consumer-ready box like you can by from a store.

The quality side of the equation is a mixed bag. I am satisfied with the result to date but not completely convinced. The backend of my system (the parts that I still use) consists of
Mark Levinson 23.5 + Bryston 5BST amplifiers
Wilson Watt 3/Puppy 2 loudspeakers
Dual Sonus Faber Solos for the center channel
In-wall rear surround speakers
Cables by Kimber, Audioquest, and Transparent Audio
Runco IDP-980 Ultra video projector

The parts that the HTPC has replaced are
Classé Audio SSP-50 preamp/processor
Sony SCD-1 (SA)CD player
Pioneer DV-09 DVD player
Faroudja VP-400A video processor
Denon TU-1500RD tuner

Now, considering that my $2,000 HTPC is replacing over $40,000 worth of consumer HiFi equipment, it hardly seems fair to compare the two. But, the comparison looks pretty good for the HTPC.

Without a doubt, the HTPC is an extremely capable video processor/scaler. DVDs viewed using WinDVD or TheaterTek DVD software are better than my DV-09/Faroudja combo; great color, good black levels, and very film-like images. On the surround audio side, WinDVD with the Delta 410 produces very good results. There is a notable lack of individual volume controls for balancing the output levels of each speaker. But my overall impression is that the output is as good as my Classé processor and even slightly better given the excellent bass management available with the 410.

Where the HTPC is a bit weaker is in 2-channel performance. My original 2-channel system consisting of the Classé SSP-50, Sony SCD-1, the ML 23.5 and Wilson speakers were all selected for their no compromise, top-quality, 2-channel performance. The HTPC, which replaced the SCD-1 and SSP-50, is not bad, but it gives a totally different character to music. All of this difference is attributable to the swap of the 410 for the SSP-50. The Delta-410 is, to my ear, overly detailed, too bright, and a bit light on the bottom end. Furthermore, the overall impression is a lack of weight or inertia that was present in the sound of the original configuration. Of course, there is a lot that can be done with interconnects to tweak the system and balance out the hot spots. I’ve only gotten this thing up and running in the last couple of weeks… I’m totally into this now and feel that these issues will be overcome with a bit more experimentation.

So, that’s where I am now. I’m going to stick with this and keep trying to improve things as my limited time permits. But there are certainly specific areas that I would like to see improved. So here’s my wish list… I cannot possibly keep up with all of the products and software that are out there--I can't even keep up with the posts on these forums. So if anyone has a line on how I can get some of this stuff off my list, PLEASE let me know.

1. I’d really like to see a single surround decoding point. A hardware decoder would be best, but some kind software would also be fine, e.g. a driver or mixer application that decodes surround sound like WinDVD’s software decoding. The object here is to be able to get surround decoding from any path that outputs through the sound card, e.g. from my HiDTV card. M-Audio’s Revolution looks to be a step in the right direction. But I cannot bring myself to hookup my amplifiers with a 3.5 mm plug. These cheesy things are simply not mechanically secure.

2. Volume control with the Delta 410 leaves a lot to be desired. The Bass Management on the control panel provides a slider that goes from 0 to 100. On my system, I get no sound from 0 to 50. When I get to 80 the sound is still pretty low. At 90 it’s moderately loud and at 100 it’s very loud. This means that the effective volume control is between 75 and 100, with most of the difference between 90 and 100. This is, I suppose, simply an annoyance. But the fact that there is more difference between 90-91 than 0-60 is not really OK.

3. The Delta 410 lacks a system-wide volume setting. I strongly feel that the proper way to control volume is with a single, master volume control. The Delta philosophy seems to be that each application should control its own volume. This leads to problems of consistency between applications, i.e. different applications control the volume at different rates/settings. Furthermore, there are too many different places to control to ensure that you don’t accidentally blow out your ears and/or speakers.

4. My experience with TV tuner cards is that they’re not really ready for prime time. The ATI All-In-Wonder does not provide top-quality deinterlacing and the WinTV cards plus DScaler lack acceptable audio capabilities. The lack of surround sound decoding within the HTPC is a big drawback to using the HTPC as a surround sound processor. So far, my HiDTV card seems the best compromise. It provides good deinterlacing and upscaling of the video but still only provides 5.1 output via an SPDIF that requires a separate surround preamp to decode. I would ultimately like to hookup a cable box/satellite receiver together with a Holo3D card. From what I've read, this would probably be a great video combination but still does not solve the surround decoding problem.

I guess that’s about all I can add to this thread. I believe that the HTPC is on the verge of joining the big league of hi-end HiFi choices. There are a number of manufacturers out there that see this as well. Thus we are witnessing all sorts of innovative products from companies like Meridian and Goldmund that are integrating these capabilities into their product lines, albeit at astronomical prices. As an HTPC enthusiast/hobbyist, the effort of putting this thing together has been challenging but very satisfying. I will keep trying to work around the problem areas with a real hope that hardware and software manufacturers will see the potential and help make the HTPC a mainstream phenomenon.

Cliff Watson

03-20-03, 12:39 PM

"WinDVD with the Delta 410 produces very good results. There is a notable lack of individual volume controls for balancing the output levels of each speaker."

The Delta 410 does have individual volume controls for balancing the speakers.

The Bass Management was developed on the 410.

bkzoller

03-20-03, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by Cliff Watson
"Er... And who came up with a 375hz cutoff freq?"

Someone that likes to hear Barry White on a subwoofer.

Maybe it's someone using a 5-channel Bose speaker system with the "subwoofer" that is really only produces mid-bass. Those things produce horrible distortion when playing anything below 80Hz. The distortion above 80Hz isn't very pleasant, either. :)

ElvisIncognito

03-20-03, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by bbadenov
Now, considering that my $2,000 HTPC is replacing over $40,000 worth of consumer HiFi equipment, it hardly seems fair to compare the two. But, the comparison looks pretty good for the HTPC.That's like music to my ears! Errr... eyes.

M-Audio’s Revolution looks to be a step in the right direction. But I cannot bring myself to hookup my amplifiers with a 3.5 mm plug. Have you considered mod'ing a Revo? For $99 plus $25 worth of "Y" adapters, you can do as I've proposed earlier in this thread.

I believe that the HTPC is on the verge of joining the big league of hi-end HiFi choices. There are a number of manufacturers out there that see this as well. Thus we are witnessing all sorts of innovative products from companies like Meridian and Goldmund that are integrating these capabilities into their product lines, albeit at astronomical prices. As an HTPC enthusiast/hobbyist, the effort of putting this thing together has been challenging but very satisfying. I will keep trying to work around the problem areas with a real hope that hardware and software manufacturers will see the potential and help make the HTPC a mainstream phenomenon. Thanks for the excellent, detailed, encouraging post! There appears to be a trend (albeit a small one) in which new forum members are posting success stories to this thread. It does my heart good to know that this aspect of the HTPC has significant momentum. I agree that we're going to see a lot more of this from high-end manufacturers, and I love being able to replicate their efforts at a fraction of the cost. These companies must be sweating bullets - the writing certainly appears to be on the wall.

Kensai

03-20-03, 04:20 PM

Anyone looked at the Monster mini-jack to stereo RCA cables that they market expressly for use in hooking an iPod to normal audio components? I've been using one for hooking my Philips card to my headphone amp for awhile and it seems very good.

I know the usual opinion of Monster around here is that they cost too much for what you get, but this does suit the need at hand here (the mini-jack head is very slender, much more slender than my RS cables I had been using previously), has superior build quality (very tough; easy to manage; 7 feet long), and I felt produced noticeably better sound than the RS cable.

They are pricey, though . . . $29.99, but that still $5-$15 less than other Monster models that are intended for use in the opposite direction (stereo RCA to mini-jack; I have no idea if that actually makes a difference in real life, but Monster has gone through the trouble of thoroughly labeling those cables with arrows indicating that your signal should be heading toward the mini-jack end.

Just FYI.

Kensai

Cliff Watson

03-20-03, 04:40 PM

"Anyone looked at the Monster mini-jack to stereo RCA cables that they market expressly for use in hooking an iPod to normal audio components? I've been using one for hooking my Philips card to my headphone amp for awhile and it seems very good."

I rejected that cable because of the low percentage shielding.

ElvisIncognito

03-20-03, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by netgeek
Hell, I'd fire up OrCad and start the design now if someone wants to spend a bunch of $$ and time getting the licenses 8-)..... I just had a really awesome idea... If you have the time, wherewithal and the inclination, how about firing up Orcad and eliminating one of the big obstacles that we have yet to overcome... design us an A/V switching interface! Imagine this...

A simple PCI card with some sort of microcontroller/signal routing device (?), several 10 pin headers (the type you'd use to connect a DB9 serial connector) and a couple of DB25 connectors mounted to the card slot plate for external connections... The software interface would allow the user to designate which pins on which connectors/headers are inputs and which are outputs, and the microcontroller could then handle all switching/routing functions. (Keyboard shortcuts would, of course, allow Girder, and thus remote control, to get involved without the need for any other sort of mechanical switches, IR receiving/processing, etc.)

How each person chooses to get the connections from outside the HTPC to this card is up to them... Many will likely choose to use dongles (like the one used on the Delta 410 - and no comments from the peanut gallery --Cliff-- about my earlier statements regarding contact area on a DB25 connector! ;) :D) perhaps using one of the DB25s for all inputs, and the other for all outputs.
Personally, I would fabricate an I/O panel - designed to utilize the space above the (keyboard/mouse/serial/parallel/USB/etc.) connection panel on the back of the PC. Depending on configuration, this could handle between 2 and 4 sets of inputs and 1 or two outputs. Or multiple DB9 connectors could provide sets of inputs/outputs using adapters similar to the DB25 dongle described above. (Note the beauty of a 9 pin connector - the maximum number of connectors required for any given input or output is 9, for a set 7.1 analog audio connectors.) Or some combination of RCA/S-video/TOSlink connectors with some space left over for a few DB9 connectors (for expansion purposes.)
Others may want to build an external box (no power required, nor buttons, switches, etc. - purely passive) with a bunch of input/output connectors and interface the whole assembly to the switcher card via the DB25 connectors.Most of these connections will be used as inputs, and the signal will be sent on to the PCI bus for software processing. Other PCI/AGP (video/HDTV/sound) cards will generally provide the HTPC outputs, HOWEVER users may want/need to do some external routing via the switcher card's outputs. One such example would be to select between multiple S-video inputs, and route the output (externally) to the (typically single) S-video input on a capture card. Similarly, selecting between multiple component inputs, and routing the output (externally) to the (single) component input on a Holo3D card would be very useful. A very good example on the audio side would be to use the sound card's analog outputs as an input (bear with me here...) to the switcher card, then use the switcher card's 7.1 analog audio output to the power amp(s). (Stay with me...) Most of the time, the sound card's output would be passed straight through to the switcher card's outputs and then to the amp. But this would also allow an alternate multi-channel input (i.e. from an SACD player!) to be passed through directly to the power amp(s) as well, and this resolves another issue!

I don't foresee a need for more than two outputs for most people- one for audio and one for video. But some people may want to do multi-room/multi-source. That's why it would be perfect if the user could specifically configure (via software) exactly which pins are inputs and which are outputs.

TOSLINK connectors are a special case... My Asus P4PE came with a little stub-card that has both coax and optical SPDIF inputs, and its output is merely 3 small wires. (It's unknown to me whether these three wires merely carry the signal or whether one of them supplies power to the stub card. I'll assume the former.) I'm sure these could be purchased separately from Asus and other mobo companies, and they could be mounted behind a panel or into very, very small project boxes that could be dongle-ized.

Whatever method is chosen for this project (if you should choose to accept this mission ;)), it clearly needs to have very low noise levels and adequate bandwidth. I suppose it would be ideal, as well, if the inputs could be individually attenuated (to provide input level matching) but that probably adds greatly to the complexity.

Have I missed anything?
Other ideas/suggestions?
Bill (netgeek), is this within your capabilities?

I've seen AVS Forum members design and manufacture custom HTPC cases, I don't see why we can't do this. Who's with me?

jjarmoc

03-20-03, 06:54 PM

Elvis -

There was a thread a while back where we were fantasizing about something very similar to what you're talking about, though I have to admit your idea is far superior to what we had cooked up. Unfortunately, we didn't get much interest from anyone actually capable of creating something like that. It would be a beautiful thing though! I hate having to use my receiver as a switch, and it doesn't have enough inputs. With the move to HD I'm left with the choice of either upgrading to a receiver or pre/pro with composite ins (and there's not many in my price range that have enough..) or using my receiver to switch audio, while my TV switches video (which is a pain to control.) Your idea would solve this problem.

However, how would digital inputs be handled, or would they? I'd really need to be able to run my CD player and my DVD player optically to the PC, though eventually I plan for the PC to replace both of them. Heck, maybe I could do without the inputs in the interim anyhow.

ElvisIncognito

03-20-03, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by jjarmoc
However, how would digital inputs be handled, or would they?

Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
TOSLINK connectors are a special case... My Asus P4PE came with a little stub-card that has both coax and optical SPDIF inputs, and its output is merely 3 small wires. (It's unknown to me whether these three wires merely carry the signal or whether one of them supplies power to the stub card. I'll assume the former.) I'm sure these could be purchased separately from Asus and other mobo companies, and they could be mounted behind a panel or into very, very small project boxes that could be dongle-ized....then the 3 wire output from these little stub cards would be connected to 3 of the pins on the switcher card. Voila!

jjarmoc

03-20-03, 07:26 PM

....then the 3 wire output from these little stub cards would be connected to 3 of the pins on the switcher card. Voila!

Sweet..

We *MUST* talk someone into producing a switching card like that. It's almost enough to bring me to tears. Once that's done, all that's needed is good audio processing on the PC from external sources, and.. well.. that's about it!

There has to be SOMEONE around here who has the skills to figure something like that out. Even if they end up just producing the program for the microcontroller and working out the schematics, I'd be willing to solder one together if I had to (though it might take a few attempts given my skill with the ol' iron.)

Heck, I don't think I'd even mine frying a few motherboards through mistakes if I could be reasonably sure of getting it working in the end!

PGPFan

03-20-03, 07:30 PM

Elvis-

You know I'm in there with your idea! Has anyone seen netgeek since his original post?

I'd definately be a buyer/builder of a card like this if it were to become available.

-PGPfan

ElvisIncognito

03-20-03, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by PGPFan
Has anyone seen netgeek since his original post?

I'd definately be a buyer/builder of a card like this if it were to become available.He was last logged in early this morning. I sent him a PM about this. I'm sure we'll hear from him soon. What about you, though... You have some capabilities in this area, don't you?

ElvisIncognito

03-20-03, 08:45 PM

As I see it, this thread has identified two areas where the HTPC has some pretty serious shortcomings...

One is input/output switching. The idea I posted is the best/easiest way I can see to deal with this, but I'm open to other ideas.

The second area is in audio/video control. The Delta 410 and Revo give us the basic functionality we need to use our HTPCs as preamp/processors, but there's a lot of stuff still missing. I'm contacting developers regarding this, and here's the list I've been providing. Again, I'm open to comments...

[list=1]Basic Functionality
Decode AC3 (Dolby Digital) audio from the internal DVD-ROM drive or .VOB file
Obviously, this can be done using filter graphs (as with ZoomPlayer), and this approach seems best since it circumvents licensing issues. Decode DTS audio from the internal DVD-ROM drive
As above Decode AC3 (Dolby Digital) audio from an external source (brought in via S/PDIF connector on sound card)
Hopefully this can also be done via filtergraphs. The (open source) AC3 filter seems to be able to do this, but it has its own set of limitations. Decode DTS audio from an external source (brought in via S/PDIF connector on sound card)
As above Allow for volume control of each individual channel
Up to 8 if you count the LFE/".1" channel (which you must). Currently, this is only possible via the control panels for the M-Audio Delta 410 and Revolution (and maybe one or two Terratec Aureon cards), and as such, it's hardware dependent. The A/V Control Panel that I'm advocating here would open the door for audiophiles to use any sound card, including extreme high-end cards like the RME and Lynx TWO cards mentioned in Branxx and Dannydlp's High-End Shootout thread. Adjustable crossover points (from 60 Hz to 180 Hz in 20 Hz increments) for all 5/6/7 main channels combined with the ability to... Redirect bass below the crossover point to the LFE channel
Currently, this is only possible via the control panels for the M-Audio Delta 410 and Revolution. Select different inputs (from external devices connected to the sound card as well as from other internal/system devices such as the DVD-ROM drive) and possibly even outputs just as you would on a receiver/preamp. Save "sets" of settings so that multiple settings can be changed with the click of a single button. (As with the Revo control panel.) Allow for control of all critical functions (and preferably all functions- period) using keyboard shortcuts. Any/all processing should be applied in the digital realm, then, after conversion from D to A, output using a non-mangling method such as ASIO or kernel streaming

Intermediate Functionality
Provide an adjustable (global) audio delay
To enable synching the audio with the video. Encode 2 channel audio from an external source (brought in via analog connectors on sound card) using various surround technologies such as DTS Neo:6 or Dolby Pro Logic 2 or SRS Labs' Circle Surround II.
M-Audio Revolution does this, but it's a hardware function of the card - it would be much better if this was hardware independent. Can SRS's WMP CSII plug-in be used in a filter graph? If not, maybe I can get my friend at SRS to push for a CSII DirectShow filter. Anybody know of other filters with support for some of the other DTS formats? (NEO:6/ES) Pass multi-channel analog audio (such as from an SACD player) straight through without converting it from A to D then back again.
This may be best addressed via hardware, and maybe it can only be done in hardware, I'm not sure... Allow other DSP effects (Hall, Theater, etc.) to be applied to any given audio stream - whether from an internal or external source

Advanced Functionality
Input gain adjustments for all inputs
to level match source devices Provide user adjustable clipping thresholds Allow for analysis of room/speaker characteristics and create an equalization curve to compensate/correct for room/speaker problems.
The open source AC3filter provides a graphic equalizer, but in order to truly equalize (perform room/speaker correction), a software pink noise generator is required along with a spectrum analyzer. Otherwise it's nothing more than an elaborate tone control.[/list]Both the input/output switching and the "Audio/Video Control Panel" are too important to just sit around wishing. I have been (and will continue to be) very active in seeing these to fruition. I am exploring all possible avenues and will continue to do so. I've posted in a couple of diferent audio programming forums (no real response). I talked to Blight about it. (Doesn't have the time/resources/expertise but suggested that this could all be done as DirectShow filters. If we build it, he will probably come. :D) I'll be contacting the guy that's working on the AC3filter at SourceForge, and I'm considering opening a SF project for this. (Though it seems ridiculous for me to do so, since I'm not a programmer. Still, I will stop at nothing...) If I do open a SF project, I'd like to make sure it has a cool name. Anybody got any better ideas than "Audio/Video Control Panel for HTPC"?

I welcome all suggestions/help on these two crucial projects, and while I haven't any C or C++ or Orcad skills, I'm willing to do anything I can to contibute. Please let me know if you can contribute or have any ideas on ways to make this happen.

Chazotta

03-20-03, 09:44 PM

What about DVD-Audio compatibility, EQ adjustments........

I see all of these things/developments as being software driven/dependant. Just like in DAW applications, once you have the audio in digital form, the computer can do anything to it (effects, EQ etc) and it only requires software to implement.

Mark

PGPFan

03-21-03, 12:06 AM

Hi Elvis,

My experience is more at the hobbiest level. The circuit I've been working on was based on the melding of 2 existing designs with some modification. I won't be able to take it any furthur due to the fact that 2 of the chips that are necessary have been discontinued. I had to use what I had laying around.

I'm really interested in this concept and will assist in any way I can.

As for the AC3 decode via filters. how do you think this would affect using TheaterTek, which I've become very addicted to?

-PGPfan

deandob

03-21-03, 05:51 AM

Like PGPFan, I have been fiddling around creating an output switching board that uses an outboard micro connected to the serial port of the PC to switch the outputs from my Delta 410 for multi room audio. I have built a prototype and micro software and it works well, but have not committed the design to PCB yet. Using an outboard card is much simplier that doing it on a PCI card, controlling signals are easy to send via serial (or possibly USB) and you have no issues with form factor & PC EMI noise. You connect the PC soundcard inputs and outputs to the outboard switcher, and you can mix & match your input output combinations. Extending this concept to video switching would be easy although some care would be required to ensure video bandwidth & noise are looked after.

This HTPC project uses similar concepts:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=148792&perpage=20&highlight=htpic&pagenumber=1

Has someone thought of approaching the guy who built the holo3d card which originated from a similar topic like this who saw a market opportunity??

I dont understand why the makers of WinDVD and similar products dont expose their DTS and AC3 decoders for external input? If you read up on directshow & DirectX on Microsoft's MSDN site, the software architecture to route input/output streams and connecting via 'pins' is already in place (with samples).

My interest in this topic is to implement a top quality HTPC system with an emphasis on 2 channel quality without having to purchase a pre/pro. It can be done.

Bill Gaw2

03-21-03, 10:26 AM

Great comments yesterday,especially from Elvis.
. As far as bass control is concerned, the ideal is to have 5-7 full range speakers and a subwoofer. The subwoofer should only be used for the low frequency effects channel that was originally developed to carry explosions and not music. Unless you have a speaker that won't reproduce a 50 Hz. tone properly you are better off not using bass management, as all ridiculously loud bass should normally be carried in the LFE channel. Having to transfer information from your outher channels to the subwoofer can only muck up the reproduction. as all bass is then coming from one place in the room. This screws up not only the sound, as all bass is coming from one point with its standing wave anomalies, but also the soundstage, as even with a 24 dB crossover, some mid range information is leaking to the subwoofer from all channels using it. Having small speakers is not high end, and the transfer of bass information from the main speakers to the subwoofer channel is only putting a band-aid on the sound. If yuor speakers cannot carry any bass information, then you are better getting small subs for each channel, which will then spread room modes more evenly, and a mega subwoofer for the LFE. Most self powered subs have built in crossovers to mate with your speakers. Least ideal is to transfer all bass to one subwoofer.
All of the software functions, especially DSP, equalization, room correction, etc., should be doable through plug-ins. There are already several out there, such as DFX that does several functions at a reasonable price, and can be used in several programs.
Media Center also can do equalization, room expansion, surround, etc., but not as yet on external signals.
The M-Audio 1010 and several other cards out there, have 8-10 stereo inputs that can be routed in just about any way you wish, but except for expensive audio programs such as Sound Forge, there is no ability to do Dolby pro-logic, etc on the stereo signal.
The other problem is the SPDIF switching of external sources and AC-3 decoding.I am using a switcher that will switch stereo audio, s-video, and either composite video or digital audio signal out to the megaHz. range very nicely, but again it is an outside box and costs $400. So yes, there is a need for at least multiple SPDIF inputs.
As far as connectors go, its not how substantial they are but how well they transmit the signal across the gap. Actually, a friend, Alan Wright did some experimentation and found that some very fine gold UHF contacts transfer small signal much better and with less errors than the best RCA, BNC's, etc out to the gigaHz. range. So I am not afraid of the small pins on the Revo card, just how good they are at transmitting signal. Also the signal transfer can be improved by cleaning the contacts and using one of several chemicals that fill in the spaces between the contacts, such as Caig Pro Gold.
Obviously a card that will do all of Elvis's functions without the need for multiple external programs would be great. But I would think it would be preferable for all of the signal processing be done in software supplied by the card manufacturer rather than hardware as it could be easily upgraded. With hardware, you have fixed functioning with no avenue for improvement.
Whaty we need is a hardware manufacturer who will build and sell a card like the RME, LYNX or 1010, sold with driver software that will do external switching, AC-3 decoding, and a package of software that will do all of the functions that WINDVD, POWERDVD, Media Center, WMP9, and Window Encoder, at a fixed price. It would also be wonderful if the software developers could come up with one program that would handle all of our wishes. Maybe the next incarnation of PowerDVD, WINDVD, NVidia, etc., will do it.

ElvisIncognito

03-21-03, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by deandob
Like PGPFan, I have been fiddling around creating an output switching board that uses an outboard micro connected to the serial port of the PC to switch the outputs from my Delta 410 for multi room audio. I have built a prototype and micro software and it works well, but have not committed the design to PCB yet. Using an outboard card is much simplier that doing it on a PCI card, controlling signals are easy to send via serial (or possibly USB) and you have no issues with form factor & PC EMI noise. You connect the PC soundcard inputs and outputs to the outboard switcher, and you can mix & match your input output combinations. Extending this concept to video switching would be easy although some care would be required to ensure video bandwidth & noise are looked after.Thanks, deanbob. I've viewed your HTPiC thread previously, but didn't see past the IR and LCD/VFD control (and I've got those covered). Still, this certainly bears discussion... First, I'd like to address location/methodology.

PCI Advantages: Allows for a fully internal solution- no external boxes hanging off the back of the HTPC. (This is important to many, myself included.) Switcher card can route the signal directly onto the PCI bus. This may not seem like a big deal, but for users otherwise who lack the necessary inputs (example: Revo has no SPDIF input) this may be very significant. No bandwidth issues with regards to getting the signal onto the PCI bus.PCI Disadvantages: PCI slots are at a premium - many people don't have any open slots. (This is especially a problem for those whose VGA cooler obscures the slot next to the AGP slot.) I may be wrong about putting the signal directly onto the PCI bus - it may not be that easy - the signal may need to be packetized or otherwise framed/massaged/manipulated before it can be put onto the bus. [COLOR=red]Hopefully this thread will attract the attention of someone who has a clue about this.[/COLOR]
I'm not going to list EMI as a PCI disadvantage because I really don't think EMI is a significant issue with regards to a solid state switch matrix.External/Serial Advantages: Doesn't take up a PCI slot Depending on overall design, may not need to worry about bringing the signal into the PC at all. Definitely no EMI/RFI issues with an external solution.External/Serial Disadvantages: If the signal IS brought into the PC (for insertion onto the PCI bus), there are possible bandwidth issues. If the signal is NOT brought into the PC, the user will need at least one of every type of input required. If the signal is NOT brought into the PC, there are possible issues (?) with the external switching method - relays are inherently noisy. Serial points are going away/need to go away - and even though this is so, they are at a premium. I go out of my way to avoid serial devices, yet both my serial ports are taken. (Airboard receiver and MyHD remote sensor.)External/USB Advantages: Doesn't take up a PCI slot Depending on overall design, may not need to worry about bringing the signal into the PC at all. Definitely no EMI/RFI issues with an external solution.External/USB Disadvantages: If the signal IS brought into the PC, there are possible bandwidth issues. If the signal is NOT brought into the PC, the user will need at least one of every type of input required. If the signal is NOT brought into the PC, there are possible issues (?) with the external switching method.

In the end, I suspect we would be divided roughly 50/50 between those who want an external solution (don't have an open PCI slot, etc.) and those who want an internal solution (for whatever reason.) Firewire might be a good way to get around any bandwidth issues, but it brings up other issues, not the least of which (for some) is the lack of a firewire port. The issue of needing at least one of each type of input can easily be resolved with the proper hardware acquisitions- those who need component inputs would simply have to resolve to purchase a Holo3D card (or maybe the new "Lite" version thereof.) With regards to the lack of an SPDIF input, I'd love to upgrade to an RME card anyway, so I suppose I would have no problem with an external solution assuming all the software functionality could be provided in a hardware-nonspecific fashion.
Originally posted by deandob
Has someone thought of approaching the guy who built the holo3d card which originated from a similar topic like this who saw a market opportunity??[quote]
[b]Worth a shot - I will do so.
[quote]
[b]I dont understand why the makers of WinDVD and similar products dont expose their DTS and AC3 decoders for external input? If you read up on directshow & DirectX on Microsoft's MSDN site, the software architecture to route input/output streams and connecting via 'pins' is already in place (with samples).Perhaps they don't need to - perhaps this can be done via filter graphs? Has anyone suggested this to Blight?

My interest in this topic is to implement a top quality HTPC system with an emphasis on 2 channel quality without having to purchase a pre/pro. It can be done.It certainly can. It can be done well, and it can be done NOW, as documented in Branxx/Dannydlp's thread. Multi-channel is where we face the most significant challenges, I think. I believe Media Center will process an incoming (external) digital signal, so of the two issues being discussed here, only the hardware issue really applies to those seeking a 2-channel solution.

netgeek

03-21-03, 11:20 AM

Okay I'm game! Keep the wish list going!

A simple switching card should be a snap - and could easily connect to the HTPC's parallel port for example. Can you put together a detailed list of what you'd like to see going in and coming out? (e.g. 3 S-Video inputs to 1 S-Video output, etc.?)...

If it's done as an external card it would eliminate dongles, adapters, etc...

BTW, Elvis, If I weren't stuck here on the East Coast for awhile we'd be sitting on my patio in Scripps Ranch right now discussing this over a few beers 8-)...

Bill

ElvisIncognito

03-21-03, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Bill Gaw2
As far as bass control is concerned, the ideal is to have 5-7 full range speakers and a subwoofer. The subwoofer should only be used for the low frequency effects channel that was originally developed to carry explosions and not music. Unless you have a speaker that won't reproduce a 50 Hz. tone properly you are better off not using bass management, as all ridiculously loud bass should normally be carried in the LFE channel. Having to transfer information from your outher channels to the subwoofer can only muck up the reproduction. as all bass is then coming from one place in the room. This screws up not only the sound, as all bass is coming from one point with its standing wave anomalies, but also the soundstage, as even with a 24 dB crossover, some mid range information is leaking to the subwoofer from all channels using it. Having small speakers is not high end, and the transfer of bass information from the main speakers to the subwoofer channel is only putting a band-aid on the sound.That's a bit of an extremist view, I think. I'm sure we can find many who will argue the point about "Having small speakers is not high end". I have large speakers - Maggie MGIIIa's, and they don't handle sudden, loud low frequency information (of the exaggerated sort found in many movies) without the mylar slapping the magnet structure. And there's nothing like unwanted audio artifacts to ruin the immersive quality of a good movie. (This happened to me when I saw JP3 - admittedly a VERY mediocre movie at best - at the theater... during the "giant dino fight", the theater's subs were bottoming out like crazy - ruined the whole movie for me.) I suspect that my Maggie's SHOULD handle 50 Hz without slapping, and that they simply need to be sent to Minnesota for a rebuild. (Maggie owners- please feel free to PM me with comments.)
If yuor speakers cannot carry any bass information, then you are better getting small subs for each channel, which will then spread room modes more evenly, and a mega subwoofer for the LFE.Seems to me that this changes very little... in this scenario, some mid range information will still be "leaking to the subwoofer from [each] channel"... all you've done is spread the bass load out a bit. While I would disable it for critical 2-channel listening, I don't think that bass redirection is overly detrimental for home theater audio- especially given the exaggerated bass levels inherent in many movies (and it's not always limited to the LFE channel.)
All of the software functions, especially DSP, equalization, room correction, etc., should be doable through plug-ins. There are already several out there, such as DFX that does several functions at a reasonable price, and can be used in several programs.If they were only DirectShow filters, we could get probably Blight to integrate them into a cohesive, skinnable control panel - that would be PERFECT.
I would think it would be preferable for all of the signal processing be done in software supplied by the card manufacturer rather than hardware as it could be easily upgraded. With hardware, you have fixed functioning with no avenue for improvement.
Whaty we need is a hardware manufacturer who will build and sell a card like the RME, LYNX or 1010, sold with driver software that will do external switching, AC-3 decoding, and a package of software that will do all of the functions that WINDVD, POWERDVD, Media Center, WMP9, and Window Encoder, at a fixed price. It would also be wonderful if the software developers could come up with one program that would handle all of our wishes. Maybe the next incarnation of PowerDVD, WINDVD, NVidia, etc., will do it.Perhaps, but if someone was to write a (hardware independent) software app that did all of this, they'd be likely to make a fortune, as virtually all 5/6/7.1 soundcards would probably want to bundle it. Also, compare the rate of progress on ZoomPlayer, MediaLobby, etc. with the rate of progress Revo drivers. I'd much prefer a software solution.

ElvisIncognito

03-21-03, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by netgeek
Okay I'm game! Keep the wish list going!

A simple switching card should be a snap - and could easily connect to the HTPC's parallel port for example. Can you put together a detailed list of what you'd like to see going in and coming out? (e.g. 3 S-Video inputs to 1 S-Video output, etc.?)...Bill, you've made me a happy man! Instead of detailing specific inputs/outputs, would it be possible to simply design the board with a bunch of 10-pin headers and a couple of DB25's on the card slot plate, then use some sort of silicon switch matrix that will, via a software interface, connect any pin (or set of pins) to any other pin (or set of pins)?

As long as the whole thing was low noise and had sufficient bandwidth for the most demanding signal to be passed, this would allow for AMAZING flexibility - people could connect whatever inputs/outputs they need/want to by simply fabricating the necessary connectors/dongles/panels.

If it's done as an external card it would eliminate dongles, adapters, etc...But what about the issue of signal insertion onto the PCI bus? Am I off-base on that?

BTW, Elvis, If I weren't stuck here on the East Coast for awhile we'd be sitting on my patio in Scripps Ranch right now discussing this over a few beers 8-)...Or on my sailboat drinking my and my wife's perfected rum punch recipe that transports you straight to Jamaica, mon... :) LMK the next time you'll be in the area!

ElvisIncognito

03-21-03, 11:56 AM

It seems to me that by taking an external (digital) signal and inserting it onto the PCI bus, that we can address this big issue we have in which there's currently no software that will process an external signal. This effectively makes it an internal signal, right? And then ZoomPlayer should be able to do its thing, right?

Or am I wrong?

K-Wood

03-21-03, 11:59 AM

Well, I just lost an enormous post on this topic. Rather than recreate it, I'll hit high points:

Assuming we can get the sound inputs into the PC (I have great faith in you guys), then we should be focusing our efforts on the software digital signal processing (DSP). IMO, the greatest strength of the PC lies in the flexibility, configurability, and upgradeability of its software. Without good software, you're relegated to building a glorified receiver.

Software DSP features should included a drag-and-drop GUI for applying EQ, bass management, time delay, and other effects to each channel individually. What I have in mind is similar to the QSC Signal Manager software here. (http://www.qscaudio.com/products/software/signal_manager/signal_manager.htm) Combined with sophisticated room acoustic management software like ETF5 (http://www.etfacoustic.com/), it should be possible to surpass the functionality of $10,000 units like the TACT for a fraction of the cost.

Imagine the following scenario:

1. The encoded AC3 stream comes into the PC from the internal DVD drive or an external input;
2. The appropriate decoding software is applied (DD, DTS, etc.) and the AC3 stream is separated into 5/7 individual full-range channels and the .1 LFE channel;
3. Using a drag-and-drop GUI, the user can apply time delay to the decoding audio streams (global delay to account for video processing and/or individual channel delays to account for speaker placement);
4. Next, the user applies bass management filters to each channel;
5. Finally, the user can drag-and-drop EQ filters onto each channel for room EQ purposes.

Separate configurations could be saved for specific inputs or even for specific DVDs.

You could experiment with different EQ configurations to your heart's content, and use something like ETF5 for real-time feedback on how it performs.

This is the holy grail, IMO.

- Ken

Kensai

03-21-03, 12:08 PM

Cliff,

Could you explain to me a bit about the "low percentage sheilding" in the Monster cables I mentioned? What does it mean performance-wise? How can you identify this characteristic in a cable? Is it really worse than an equivalant RS cable in this regard?

Thanks . . . I love to learn.

Kensai

Bill Gaw2

03-21-03, 01:42 PM

Originally, the 5.1 setup was used to put all wacky movie bass into a subwoofer so that the main full range movie house speakers could handle the regular bass information. DSP of bass cam into effect in home theaters because many people had loudspeakers which could not handle any bass at all. And yes, there are some sup[er high end speakers such as the Maggies and electrostatics that cannot handle deep bass. So what's the solution for this? A separate subwoofer for each speaker. Why separate? Two reasons:1. to allow the sub to be better integrated with the speaker, which is difficult, never mind trying to integrate the bass from several speakers into one subwoofer. 2. To even out room modes. Depending on room dimensions, each room has standing waves at certain frequencies, giving nulls and spikes in low frequency information depending on position in the room. With multiple subwoofers close to their respective speakers, one can even out the room modes, give better time alignment between the speaker and subwoofer outputs, integrate the sound betwqeen the sub and its speaker.
So for best sound: Each main speaker should be full range, with one or more subwoofers carrying only the .1 channel
Second best is less than full range speakers with individual subwoofers with either another sub for the .1 channel, or the .1 channel being combined into the other subs.
Worst is a bunch of small speakers with all subwoofer information going into one subwoofer. On the other hand it is the cheap way to go and does decrease the WAF(wife acceptance factor).
That's all I meant. Bass management is a band aid for less than optimal systems. I know, everyone cannot afford the space or money for the optimal, and thus bass management is probably a necessity for 90% of listeners.

Cliff Watson

03-21-03, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Kensai
Cliff,

Could you explain to me a bit about the "low percentage sheilding" in the Monster cables I mentioned? What does it mean performance-wise? How can you identify this characteristic in a cable? Is it really worse than an equivalant RS cable in this regard?

Thanks . . . I love to learn.

Kensai

”iCable also features a 10% foil shield for additional noise rejection.”

Most cheap cables provide at least 90% shielding. Better cables have 95% (or more) mesh shielding and many have double shielding with wire mesh and 100% foil.

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?productLearnMore=T4504LL/A

netgeek

03-21-03, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
It seems to me that by taking an external (digital) signal and inserting it onto the PCI bus, that we can address this big issue we have in which there's currently no software that will process an external signal. This effectively makes it an internal signal, right? And then ZoomPlayer should be able to do its thing, right?

Or am I wrong?

I think what you want to do is capture a S/PDIF input so that software can then do further processing and pass it along to the output D/A channels, right? I'll look into it, but I believe that most S/PDIF receivers spit out a serial stream intended to directly interface to D/A converters - and not to the PCI bus. So you could shift the serial stream into a circuit which would then provide a parallel output which could be accessed by the CPU (via the PCI bus) but alot of this is a PITA and the timing, etc. would be critical. It can certainly be done, however.

On another matter, you mentioned not wanting to use relays because they're "noisy". Actually (disregarding reliability issues vs. solid state) in many cases a relay is great if your goal is to not "color" or modify the pass-through signal in any way! ANY solid state switch will have some effect on the signal. If the circuit is optimised for the signal of interest (i.e. audio or video) then I, for one, won't have any problems with this because the result should be indistinguishable from the original in most real-world cases. But remember - in this froum you're dealing with perhaps the world's pickiest people - those who swear they can hear the difference between zip-cord, 14/2 wiring, 12/2 wiring and the oxygen content of copper !!! :) Putting ANYTHING extra in the signal path will elicit howls of protest and controversy! Many years ago I did alot of custom work for some major league studios in Hollywood and I loved to do A/B demos in which I merely "forgot" to switch from A to B - with some really interesting results :) . If I "told" them I'd switched (but really hadn't) you would be amazed at how many people claimed a sudden loss of "air" or "presence" or "authority" - despite playing this game repeatedly - WITH NO CHANGES whatsoever. Made me laugh! Also made me leave that industry because I couldn't stand the BS anymore - but that's another story.

The point of this - A simple switching matrix where all "gozintas" are equal to all "gozoutas" won't be ideal or desirable - unless you're using relays!! If it's be solid-state - using buffers and analog switches - we need to define what those inputs and outputs are.

Regards,
Bill

P.S. Regarding the sailboat option: My wife and I will bring the perfect jerk recipes to compliment your rum thing. Too bad we don't still have our boat to use as it was powered - less work and less chance of spilling your drink(s) :)

ElvisIncognito

03-21-03, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Bill Gaw2
Second best is less than full range speakers with individual subwoofers with either another sub for the .1 channel, or the .1 channel being combined into the other subs.Actually, you've now got me thinking - with my background in speaker design and building (formerly the founder and proprietor of Masterpiece Speakerworks in San Jose, CA), I could easily build at three passive subs for (at least) my three front channel speakers. One each could sit behind my MG-IIIa's (no big WAF issues there) and the one for the center channel I can mount in my attic (down-firing) to complement whichever Maggie I decide to go with for the center channel. Thanks, Bill!

K-Wood

03-21-03, 04:14 PM

Bill:
Won't multiple subs (or full-range speakers) each generate their own room modes? What happens to the multiple peaks and valleys from each speaker? I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, just trying to understand.

Also -- for the WAF and $$-challenged among us, is there any value to going with a stereo sub setup -- i.e., a sub for each stereo pair (L/R front, L/R rear)? Perhaps with the rear sub performing LFE duties as well?

I realize this is getting a little OT. Frankly, I'd like to hear Elvis' reaction to my notion of drag-and-drop software DSP. Is it just pie in the sky?

Is there anyone out there with knowledge of how to replicate DSP circuitry in software?

- Ken

Kensai

03-21-03, 04:16 PM

Cliff,

Thanks for filling me in there. I suppose Monster felt their hype-machine cable design was good enough at rejecting noise that they didn't need the extra cost/weight/whatever of full shielding. Maybe, maybe not. Its done fine for me so far, but I'll remember not to lay it along with any power cables or speaker cable (or even coil the slack up on itself), just in case.

Kensai

ElvisIncognito

03-21-03, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by netgeek
I think what you want to do is capture a S/PDIF input so that software can then do further processing and pass it along to the output D/A channels, right?Basically, yes. I see this as our one big opportunity to get software (that is otherwise not set up to process an external input) to process an external input. Perhaps I'm all wet here - I'm really not sure. And perhaps we just need to wait for a software fix. And perhaps this is already do-able in filter graphs (and thus via Zoom Player. All questions that need to be answered.

I'll look into it, but I believe that most S/PDIF receivers spit out a serial stream intended to directly interface to D/A converters - and not to the PCI bus.As I understand it (and perhaps I don't!), the DVD drive sends the audio and video bitstreams onto the PCI bus from which the DVD player software retrieves them, sends the video bitstream on to the video card (via the PCI bus), decodes the audio bitstream into individual channel streams and sends these on to the sound card (again, via the PCI bus) for D:A conversion and output. Is the bitstream from an external SPDIF input totally different from the audio bitstream on a DVD?

On another matter, you mentioned not wanting to use relays because they're "noisy". Actually (disregarding reliability issues vs. solid state) in many cases a relay is great if your goal is to not "color" or modify the pass-through signal in any way!I respectfully disagree. Those damned little coils are infamous for injecting noise into the circuit, and there's a reason why relays are avoided like the plague in audio circuitry. If we go with this general paradigm, I would hope that we would at least use silicon controlled switches in lieu of electromechanical relays.

ANY solid state switch will have some effect on the signal. If the circuit is optimised for the signal of interest (i.e. audio or video) then I, for one, won't have any problems with this because the result should be indistinguishable from the original in most real-world cases.Agreed. Clearly, neither method is perfect, so it boils down to the lesser of two evils. My money is on the silicon, but hopefully all those who really give a damn about this will post their preferences and we can go from there.

But remember - in this froum you're dealing with perhaps the world's pickiest people - those who swear they can hear the difference between zip-cord, 14/2 wiring, 12/2 wiring and the oxygen content of copper !!! :) Putting ANYTHING extra in the signal path will elicit howls of protest and controversy!Yes, there are a great many subjectivists here, but it seems there are an equal number of objectivists. Again, I think it's best put to a vote. If the product you produce sounds "slightly clangorous" or "imparts a grainy character", then let them continue to use a megabuck pre/pro. (That's my thoughts at any rate.)

The point of this - A simple switching matrix where all "gozintas" are equal to all "gozoutas" won't be ideal or desirable - unless you're using relays!! If it's be solid-state - using buffers and analog switches - we need to define what those inputs and outputs are.Surely there must be some sort of chip that can be used as a solid state switch matrix? Something with a bunch of I/O pins that can be programmatically connected? That way we can use software to tell it to (for now) "connect pins 1,2 and 3 to pins 47, 48 and 49" then later come back with a different software command and say "disconnect pins 1, 2 and 3 from pins 47, 48 and 49 and instead connect them to pins 18, 19 and 20".

In this manner, no pin (whether on the chip or on a header on the PCI card or on a DB25 connector) needs to be defined/limited to a "gozinta" or a "gozouta". Seems to me this is much more flexible, but if it's not possible, I'll shut up about it and we can get down to the bidness of defining inputs and outputs.

netgeek

03-21-03, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by K-Wood

Is there anyone out there with knowledge of how to replicate DSP circuitry in software?

- Ken

Not to pick on you personally, Ken, but I think we should dispell the notion that "dedicated" DSP components are restrictive or represent some kind of easily-obsoluted solution. The DSPs I'm talking about don't represent some kind of "either hardware or software" solution. The idea that the DSPs are hardwired is incorrect. In fact, they are merely a hardware adjunct to the CPU in the HTPC. What actually happens is that the DSP is software driven - but is capable of performing specialized processing operations quite easily (and autonomously) when compared to the general CPU (Intel P4, et. al.). What happens is that you determine the input source and operating mode, load the program memory of the DSP and then "kick-start" the thing - whereupon it will act upon the incoming data stream. For example, if you are going to be decoding AC-3, you load the appropriate code into the DSP's program space, start it, and the result will be decoded AC-3 fed directly to the output channel D/As. None of this is cast in stone and the DSP can be easily re-programmed as new algorithms and techniques are developed. In this sense, the DSP is quite "general-purpose" in nature.

My point here is this: While it is certainly possible to do alot of this in software (witness PowerDVD, et. al.) - once you start piling on additional requirements and extra processing in the signal chain (e.g. delay, room EQ, individual speaker EQ, etc.) I can't help but believe that we're starting to waste lots of processor power to accomplish what can be easily done with just a few dollars worth of hardware which supplement the HTPC. In other words, a properly configured DSP tied directly to a multi-channel D/A converter avoids one hell of alot of extra PCI bandwidth and a great deal of CPU time. Load the parameters once - and then simply feed it data. And none of this requires you to give up any flexibility or to sacrifice options in the future - in fact it opens the door to many further improvements with no additional costs!

I'd rather spend the "CPU budget" on processing the video (although at some point perhaps an additional DSP might help there too). I'm not trying to become the poster-boy for DSPs but, hey, they work quite well, offload the CPU, provide built-in flexibility for the future - and they don't cost much!

I think the "HTPC-as-pre/pro" boils down to 1) Switching/routing capability, and 2) Processing/enhancement capability. Some fairly inexpensive hardware used as an adjunct to the main CPU would go a long way towards advancing both causes.

Just my thoughts - which are usually discounted by my wife :)

Regards,
Bill

PGPFan

03-21-03, 04:58 PM

Personally,

I'd like to see a switch matrix that would support the following:

Hardware side:

1) 3 S-VHS video inputs to 1 S-VHS out to route to Dscaler capture card.
2) 4-5 pairs of RCA inputs to 1 pair of outputs to route to the analog in of a REVO.
3) I/O handled via Elvis recommendation of the custom db-25 connectors (might make a good how-to article for someone to create, and others to follow)
4) Software switching via key shortcuts to allow for Girder control
5) USB controlled rather than parallel since the parallel is going away.
6) Single pci form factor

Software side:

1) Open souced API
2) Expose a Girder event to monitor which inputs are currently active.
3) Plugin support (if relevant to a 'matrix' switch)

-PGPfan

netgeek

03-21-03, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
As I understand it (and perhaps I don't!), the DVD drive sends the audio and video bitstreams onto the PCI bus from which the DVD player software retrieves them, sends the video bitstream on to the video card (via the PCI bus), decodes the audio bitstream into individual channel streams and sends these on to the sound card (again, via the PCI bus) for D:A conversion and output. Is the bitstream from an external SPDIF input totally different from the audio bitstream on a DVD?

Yes, they are different. The data from the CD/DVD drive are read in parallel from the drive (via the IDE/ATAPI interface) and then either processed by the software application and fed to the individual D/As or (more typically) simply sent out via S/PDIF for an external AVR to handle.

The bitstream from an external SPDIF input is presented in a serial fashion and must be either routed to a serial-input D/A or accumulated (via a serial to parallel shift register or other hardware) to achieve the equivalent to what is read off a DVD drive directly. It's an extra step (not that difficult) but it is required to end up with equivalent data format (i.e. parallel data).

To summarize - Data from a drive is read in parallel, data from SPDIF is read as a serial stream.

Regards,
Bill

ElvisIncognito

03-21-03, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by K-Wood
I realize this is getting a little OT. Frankly, I'd like to hear Elvis' reaction to my notion of drag-and-drop software DSP. Is it just pie in the sky?Ken-

Truth is, I don't really understand where "drag-n-drop" really comes in to play on something like this. I agree that we need software DSP, and as I see it, we have a couple different ways of making it happen - (1) Find somebody to write one big app to do everything... or (2) Find people to write task-specific modules as direct-show filters, then have someone (Blight ?) integrate them using filter graphs and a skinnable GUI. Personally, the latter option seems more do-able, although the profit potential for the former seems obvious. (What 5/6/7.1 sound card manufacturer wouldn't want to bundle such an app?)

Personally, here's my vision for this thing...

The default panel (with a very MainLobby-esque look & feel) would have: a set of buttons (one per input device) and an indicator to indicate which input is active Users who have need for such a thing could choose to display more than one such section if they have more than one output a master volume control and a mute button (much like you would expect to find on any good pre/pro) Other indicators (Dolby Digital, DTS, CSII, etc.) a "configuration" or "settings" button which will toggle the display of other panels.
Additional panels would include: Channel Levels (output)- used to set relative volume levels for each channel, complete with buttons for test tones, etc. The user would have the ability to select one or multiple or all output lines when making adjustments. (Where logical, the user should have the ability of permanently locking two channels together.) Input Levels- used to set the relative INPUT levels for each input device. Bass Management- crossover points, bass redirect, LFE phase & level, etc. Equalization - including a spectrum analyzer and a button to turn on the built-in software pink noise generator for true room/speaker correction. (As with channel levels, users could equalize individual, multiple or all channels at once Others?Somewhere, there need to be selectable sets of settings, but I'm not sure whether this would be on a panel-by-panel basis or on the main/default panel (or maybe both.)

I've probably overlooked some stuff, but that's how I see it. Basically, a Revo control panel on steroids with the Mario/Cinemar touch.
Originally posted by netgeek
My point here is this: While it is certainly possible to do alot of this in software (witness PowerDVD, et. al.) - once you start piling on additional requirements and extra processing in the signal chain (e.g. delay, room EQ, individual speaker EQ, etc.) I can't help but believe that we're starting to waste lots of processor power to accomplish what can be easily done with just a few dollars worth of hardware which supplement the HTPC.I disagree. I think the bulk of processing is in D:A conversion, and that *is* done in hardware. The rest of it is not that CPU-intensive and won't eat up that many cycles. Look at the amount of processor utilization by Power/WinDVD/TheaterTek - which has to decode AC3/DTS - arguably a much more intense process than the more trivial DSP tasks we're talking about. I say keep it completely in the software realm - "no thanks" to hardware obsolescence. If DScaler can do ITS thing in software, we certainly can - this is trivial by comparison.
I'd rather spend the "CPU budget" on processing the video (although at some point perhaps an additional DSP might help there too).If we were running low on horsepower, I'd agree, but we're not. Perhaps those in the KISS (PIII Coppermine because it's so stable, blah, blah, blah) crowd won't have the horsepower to use this, but they wouldn't anyway - that would be "trying to do too much in one PC"...

netgeek

03-21-03, 07:01 PM

Well, let's get on with it. There's the switching issue - and then there's all else. A complete description/consensus of what needs to be switched is all that's required at this point - and then I'll fire up OrCad and have at it.

At the same time, I'm still inclined to lash together a DSP-based, HTPC-specific audio processor - but that's another story and really for my own entertainment.............

Let's hear some more about what inputs and outputs are needed!

Regards,
Bill

RudyRedNose

03-21-03, 08:04 PM

Netgeek, Elvis
What I think is the holy grail is an external box providing:
- Analog inputs: NxRCA jacks, connected to an analog crossbar, suitable for both quality audio and video.
- n x ADC stages (n<N), connected to the crossbar.
- m x DAC stages (m<M), connected to the crossbar.
- Analog outputs, MxRCA jacks, connected to the crossbar.
- High performance DSP, suitable for most, but not necessary all processing involved. Modern DSP chips can be spectacular performers at the price point we can afford in a higher end HTPC.
- Some FPGA hardware to buffer and queue ADC/DACs into DSP memory

AND a Gigabit Ethernet link from DSP memory to the PC. This fat (and fast) link is what brings you the best of both worlds, that is the possibility to implement any part of the signal processing on the PC.

GigE could be replaced with some profit by more advanced serial pipes such as RIO (Rapid IO) or InfiniBand, both of them scalable to higher rates (up to 40Gbps ! )

Rudy

ElvisIncognito

03-21-03, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by netgeek
Well, let's get on with it. There's the switching issue - and then there's all else. A complete description/consensus of what needs to be switched is all that's required at this point - and then I'll fire up OrCad and have at it.But what about my earlier question...
Surely there must be some sort of chip that can be used as a solid state switch matrix? Something with a bunch of I/O pins that can be programmatically connected? That way we can use software to tell it to (for now) "connect pins 1,2 and 3 to pins 47, 48 and 49" then later come back with a different software command and say "disconnect pins 1, 2 and 3 from pins 47, 48 and 49 and instead connect them to pins 18, 19 and 20".

ElvisIncognito

03-21-03, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by RudyRedNose
- Analog inputs: NxRCA jacks, connected to an analog crossbar, suitable for both quality audio and video.
- n x ADC stages (n<N), connected to the crossbar.
- m x DAC stages (m<M), connected to the crossbar.
- Analog outputs, MxRCA jacks, connected to the crossbar.
- High performance DSP, suitable for most, but not necessary all processing involved. Modern DSP chips can be spectacular performers at the price point we can afford in a higher end HTPC.
- Some FPGA hardware to buffer and queue ADC/DACs into DSP memory

AND a Gigabit Ethernet link from DSP memory to the PC. This fat (and fast) link is what brings you the best of both worlds, that is the possibility to implement any part of the signal processing on the PC.Rudy-

First of all, a GigE connection to an external box makes no sense at all - Firewire doesn't even have (anywhere NEAR) that kind of throughput - let alone USB.

Second, to the extent that we include functionality that can be easily (and for most people probably already has been) addressed by other hardware (Ethernet, ADC, DAC) we drive the cost of this up to where it's no longer affordable. Currently, there's no shortage of options for connecting an Ethernet cable to an HTPC. Nor is there a shortage of soundcards to do AD/DA conversion. There is however a huge gaping void for highly configurable multi-in multi-out switchers that can be software controlled by the HTPC user. I think we need to just focus on filling the void.

ElvisIncognito

03-21-03, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by netgeek
To summarize - Data from a drive is read in parallel, data from SPDIF is read as a serial stream.Hmmmm. Well, that certainly changes things a bit (for me at least.) Enabling processing of external digital inputs by inserting the digital signal onto the PCI bus was the main advantage for using a PCI card. If this is going to be impossible (or overly difficult), I would then lean toward an external solution (so as not to waste a precious PCI slot.) And if it's going to external, perhaps the logical thing *is* to simply trigger silicon-controlled switches to route external inputs to switcher box outputs and switcher box outputs to HTPC inputs (although it seems to me like a routing nightmare if you can't simply say, "Connect pin X to pin Y.")

I'd still much prefer to see a highly flexible solution in which we had 100+ lines, any of which could be connected to any other via some sort of silicon switch matrix. Some day I *do* want to integrate multi-room/multi-zone into my HTPC and maybe even (**gasp**) home automation and security...

If we don't go with this method, but instead with dedicated inputs and outputs, look at the mess we get in to: Absolute worst case (and admittedly unrealistic) scenario- an audio component that puts out 7.1 audio channels but also outputs video (think DVD-A player here) could conceivably require 7.1 analog audio (= 8 RCA) inputs, YPrPb video (= 3 RCA) inputs, but it may not have component video, it may have S-video or composite, so that's 12 RCA jacks and 1 S-video jack for ONE input. And how many people are going to pipe up and say, "Oh, I need two of those inputs!" Not as bad (but still terrible and considerably more realistic) - an SACD player could conceivably require 5.1 analog audio (= 5 RCA) inputs, YPrPb video (= 3 RCA) inputs, and an S-video and a composite video, so that's 10 RCA jacks and 1 S-video jack for ONE input. (And how many of those inputs are we going to need?) A very realistic version of that would be an SACD player requiring 5.1 analog audio (= 5 RCA) inputs, S-video and a composite video, so that's 7 RCA jacks and 1 S-video jack for ONE input. (Times how many such inputs?) In order to implement my suggestion on SACD/DVD-A pass-through, we'll need at least 2 x 7.1 inputs (one for the SACD/DVD-A player and one for the analog outputs from the sound card) and a third 7.1 output for connection to the power amp(s) (That's 16 RCA input jacks + 8 RCA output jacks = 24 total RCA jacks.) And how likely is it that someone with a DVD-A player and an SACD player will want a 3rd set of 7.1 (or at least 5.1) inputs for pass-through? That would bring the total to 30 or 32 - just to handle two external devices for pass-through! How 'bout devices that output RGBHV + L/R audio (and maybe coax and optical digital in case you don't want to use the analog outputs.) There's another input requiring 8 RCA jacks and a TOSLINK jack. How many of those do people need?Granted, I'm being a bit extreme in my examples, but what's extreme for one person is "just what the Dr. ordered" for another...

Hopefully you're beginning to see why I've so strongly advocated the switch matrix I've tried to describe in previous posts (and why I've suggested using DB9/DB25 connectors plus dongles.) In order to be all things to all people - or even most things to most people, this thing is going to need, what, 50 ~ 60 RCA jacks + half a dozen S-video connectors and another half dozen TOSLINK ports? And that's assuming nobody pipes up and says, "Hey! I need VGA switching..." or "Hey! I need DVI switching..."

My suggested design defies convention by providing a very high number of pins/lines, terminating them in headers/connectors that are commonly available (so that adapters/dongles can be easily fabricated) and allowing the user to connect any pin to any other, thereby allowing each person to customize it to suit their specific needs.

If it's simply not do-able because such a (silicon) device doesn't exist, so be it - I'll shut up about this design. (It appears to me, though, that the chip deanbob is using seems to have this capability - or am I mistaken? deanbob?) Or, if the majority simply want a box with a finite number of RCA/S-Video/TOSLINK inputs and outputs, then I'll shut up, too, but this very conventional approach is going to leave some people out in the cold, and I hate to see a project actually get off the ground and come to fruition and still leave some people hanging...

</SOAPBOX>

netgeek

03-21-03, 08:50 PM

Elvis,

Sure there are analog cross-point/matrix chips and components around but you're not going to get nearly the performance and quality of signal that users around this forum expect and demand. We need to know what's being switched and then optimise the devices/circuitry being used depending on that. Switching audio is different than switching component video - and while we can certainly come up with adequate solutions for either (hey, and *without* relays even), we need to know what they are. I wish there was a mux chip that looked like a piece of wire up to light frequencies and didn't have any affect on the signal but - alas - it ain't so...

Regards,
Bill

gnollo

03-21-03, 08:51 PM

Elvis, I know you are working at the ideal HTPC right now, but you left us a bit in the dark about the non-ideal htpc, you know, the AAAAAAAARRRGHHH one... what happened to your hissing issue (sorry if I am posting here, but I kinda feel you spend most of your time in this thread these days... ;))

ElvisIncognito

03-21-03, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by netgeek
you're not going to get nearly the performance and quality of signal that users around this forum expect and demand. We need to know what's being switched and then optimise the devices/circuitry being used depending on that.Cool. Thanks for clearing that up. OK, I'm done with that now! :D

gnollo- Moving the card to a different slot fixed the problem and it seems very stable, but I've implemented a "HT Backup System" plan, so at the moment the projector and screen are dormant and the HTPC is going to be recontructed using Mark Rejhon's step-by-step method. (Along with many of the tweaks/methods outlined in your excellent thread and the links it points to.) Thanks for asking! (And yes, this thread IS pretty much where I'm spending ALL my time now; I'm doggedly determined to make this happen! :))

ElvisIncognito

03-21-03, 09:07 PM

netgeek- YG(P)M...

deandob

03-21-03, 09:08 PM

One major consideration (for me anyway) is to make the audio switch matrix independent of the sound card. People have different preferences (eg. Revo vs RME) for the soundcard which will determine the final sound character, so the switch matrix and processing/controlling software should be separate from the sound card (ie. D/A) function. It is obviously possible to integrate the D/A function in the switch (ala pre/pro) but I think it should be separate.

I recall a thread a few months ago debating wether the soundcard driver should contain the audio processing (eg. LFE processing), but you will have more flexibility if you keep the processing out of the soundcard driver, so you can mix/match soundcards. One problem with this is that the audio processing will need to be inserted between the player (eg. Winamp/Foobar) and the soundcard driver, and will make it difficult to use features like kernel streaming / ASIO. I'm sure others have differing opinions on the software processing topic.

More on the pros/cons of relays vs solid state switches:
I still think a relay will be better quality although with a good ss audio switch (like the more expensive Analog Devices chips) the difference is less. If you look into the data sheets for these chips, there is a certain amount of non linearity (eg. proportional to input voltage) as well as other distortion & noise introduced. A good relay with mercury wetted contacts will do a much better job of passing the audio unscathed. The relay coil should not introduce artifacts as it is powered by DC although you will get some noise during the brief switching period. A ss switch should last longer but be less tolerant to any problem voltages induced on the input.

If it helps anyone, I can share the schematic & PIC code for my external audio switch matrix. My solution uses ss switches - as the use was for switching whole house audio it does not have to be as "hifi" as what I would expect my HTPC pre/pro to be. The schematics can be easily converted to relays if needed.

If I had more time I'd consider firing up Visual Studio to build the pluggable DirectShow filters - it shouldn't be that hard, likewise the GUI should not be a massive effort (there is a joke in the software industry that a weekend is an infinite amount of time for a developer!!)

I'd also like to contribute to the hardware design if time allows, but at this stage can only share what I have already developed. For the hardware guys talking about doing a PCI card - AFAIK this is not hobby domain, you need serious PCB fabrication facilities as well as SM devices (eg. glue chips) which make a PCI card much harder to make & more expensive in small quantities.

netgeek

03-21-03, 10:06 PM

Deanbob,

Your points are well taken. Fabricating a PCI card is really out of the hobbyist league - but alot of folks on this forum are "from the industry" and willing to share with those less technically inclined - works out for everyone! We all want more or less the same things - and can all contribute something towards the common goals.

I agree with you about the relays (and Elvis - I really disagree with your comments still about noise - DC through a coil doesn't make any noise) and the true "purists" will insist on the use of relays vs. SS switching. I would prefer the SS switches (because I basically don't trust anything mechanical 8-)... but everyone's preferences can probably be accomodated somehow!

OrCad is warmed up and ready to go 8-)... Keep the comments coming!!!

Regards,
Bill

P.S. The very nice Analog Devices chips (e.g. SSM2412) which I assume you're referring to have now been made obsolete......8-(....

Cliff Watson

03-21-03, 10:23 PM

’2. To even out room modes. Depending on room dimensions, each room has standing waves at certain frequencies, giving nulls and spikes in low frequency information depending on position in the room. With multiple subwoofers close to their respective speakers, one can even out the room modes, give better time alignment between the speaker and subwoofer outputs, integrate the sound betwqeen the sub and its speaker.”

Bill,

Please explain the physics of your statement concerning the ability to even out room modes with multiple subwoofers.

If there is some physical principle that I’ve missed I’ll need to revise my software used to design home theater rooms.

adaseng

03-21-03, 10:24 PM

Elvis,

As you are reconstructing your true preamp/processor HTPC with your mod Revo, please try to make accurate step-by-step documentation of all the procedures being done (preferably with photos from partitioning to installing all software and drivers) and post it here at the forum for us. We would love to do the same. thanks

P.S: post only if the results are success without a single glitch. :)

Seng

ElvisIncognito

03-22-03, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by adaseng
As you are reconstructing your true preamp/processor HTPC with your mod Revo, please try to make accurate step-by-step documentation of all the procedures being done (preferably with photos from partitioning to installing all software and drivers) and post it here at the forum for us. We would love to do the same. thanksSeng- when I get started (some time in April), I was planning on opening a thread for it and using that thread as journal for logging all developments, results, findings, etc.
Originally posted by deandob
If I had more time I'd consider firing up Visual Studio to build the pluggable DirectShow filters - it shouldn't be that hard, likewise the GUI should not be a massive effort (there is a joke in the software industry that a weekend is an infinite amount of time for a developer!!)OH, MAN! What a ruthless, brutal TEASE! Don't DO that to us, deanbob! Jeez!!! Anything I can do to help free up some of your precious time, you let me know, OK? :)

Originally posted by deandob
More on the pros/cons of relays vs solid state switches:
I still think a relay will be better quality although with a good ss audio switch (like the more expensive Analog Devices chips) the difference is less. If you look into the data sheets for these chips, there is a certain amount of non linearity (eg. proportional to input voltage) as well as other distortion & noise introduced. A good relay with mercury wetted contacts will do a much better job of passing the audio unscathed. The relay coil should not introduce artifacts as it is powered by DC although you will get some noise during the brief switching period. A ss switch should last longer but be less tolerant to any problem voltages induced on the input.Originally posted by netgeek
I agree with you about the relays (and Elvis - I really disagree with your comments still about noise - DC through a coil doesn't make any noise) and the true "purists" will insist on the use of relays vs. SS switching.OK, OK. I freely admit you guys know more about this than I do, and I'm a big enough man (all those fried peanut butter & 'nanner sandwiches, y'know) to admit when I'm wrong. I had no idea about the non-linearities, distortion & noise in silicon switches... now that I do, I say reliability issues of mechanical devices be damned - let's bag 'em and go with relays.

The lowest possible noise and the least possible signal degradation should be our two primary design criteria. Everything else should be secondary to that. I should think we're all in agreement on that.

Branxx

03-22-03, 03:47 AM

One major consideration (for me anyway) is to make the audio switch matrix independent of the (physical) sound card.

I would like to add two points to the effort: It looks to me that the most compatible implementation of the software pre/pro would be to introduce it to the Windows system as Virtual Sound Driver (http://www.highcriteria.com/press_rel_trsdkv10.htm). Such driver would expose several input and output sound devices and they can be set up as default playback and recording devices within windows audio control panel.

Links between the virtual wave channel and physical wave of the actual sound card is then set-up within the control panel of the virtual sound driver (or via a suitable front end app).

In this case HTPC can have 2 or even three different physical sound cards and with say front L+R going to sound-card 1, center+LFE map to sound-card 2, etc..

All sound processing is done within the virtual sound driver (ideally via plug-ins) before being sent to the physical sound-card.

For the good example of the functions performed by authoritative external AVR please check Lexicon MC-12 User Guide (http://www.lexicon.com/downloads/file-details.asp?product=MC12&ID=7). This maybe overkill but it is a good starting point.

ElvisIncognito

03-22-03, 03:53 AM

Seems to me the next thing we need to agree on is form factor... PCI? External serial? External parallel? External USB? External firewire?
And here's one more... Internal USB? (I really like the idea of using an I/O panel - designed to utilize the space above the keyboard/mouse/serial/parallel/USB/etc. connection panel on the back of the PC. It would look SO sharp - so "factory"... and most motherboards have internal USB headers these days, right? As long as the PCB was roughly the same width as this area, and not overly deep, I personally think this would be the slickest way to go. Other opinions/comments/votes on form factor?

I guess the next thing we need is a list of inputs/outputs. Bob Sorel and Bill Gaw (whose earlier posts helped to spark this quest) both have extremely elaborate systems with a plethora of external gear. Extrapolating from Bob's list of required inputs/outputs...

VIDEO INPUTS 2 S-Video (VHS deck, HDTV tuner)
2 component video (SACD player, SDI-modded STB DVD player)

Other video inputs include VGA, RGBHV, SDI and DVI. The latter two (if not all four) add greatly to the complexity of the project, and for the most part represent specialized source devices which will probably interface with an equally specialized card in the PC. Let's not forget that if we accept it as an input, we need to also provide an output. Since a 1:1 input:output ratio is pointless, for any of these that we decide to provide switching for, we should provide at least 2 (and preferably 3) inputs for each, and this increases the project complexity as well as the connection panel density.

Total without VGA/RGBHV/SDI/DVD = 4 video inputs: 2 S-Video and 6 RCA jacks

While this represents all of Bob Sorel's needs (excluding the non-standard/specialized video inputs above) I would suggest adding a 3rd S-video input (for room to grow) and maybe a couple of composite video inputs (for those devices that offer no alternative such as some camcorders and digicams). This would bring the total to 7 video inputs: 3 S-Video and 8 RCA (6 for component and 2 for composite) jacks.

AUDIO INPUTS 4 digital (HDTV tuner, SACD player, DVD-A player, CD changer)
4 stereo analog (HDTV tuner, SACD player, CD changer, Phono)
2 5.1 analog (SACD player, DVD-A player)
1 7.1 analog (from soundcard outputs)

Total = 11 audio inputs: 4 digital and 22 RCA jacks.

Again, the above list reflects Bob Sorel's needs, but it also adds a 7.1 analog input allowing analog pass-through (no A>D>A conversion) of the 5.1 outputs (from the SACD or DVDA player) OR the sound card's analog outputs to the switcher's 7.1 analog outputs (which would be connected directly to the power amps). Rather than splitting the 4 digital inputs into 2 optical and 2 coaxial (or 1 & 3 or 3 & 1), I think it would make more sense to just do 3 of each to eliminate the possible problem of running short on one or the other. This would bring the total to 13 audio inputs: 6 digital and 22 RCA jacks.

VIDEO OUTPUTS
At a minimum, we'd need (in theory) 1 output for each type o11 audio inputs - 4 digital and 22 (!) RCA[f input we have, but for greater flexibility...
2 S-video (1 for output to VHS deck, 1 for output to a capture card)
1 composite (for output to a legacy device with no alternative/better input)
1 component (for output to a Holo3D or other such capable card)

If we're going to provide VGA/RGBHV/SDI/DVI switching, then obviously we'll need one of each of those outputs. For reasons of project complexity and panel density, I vote for not dealing w/these unless we get some very convincing arguments to the contrary.

Total = 3 video outputs - 2 S-video and 4 RCA (3 for component and 1 for composite) jacks.

AUDIO OUTPUTS
At a minimum, we'd again need (in theory) 1 output for each type of input we have...
7.1 analog outputs (for output to the power amps)
1 analog stereo (for output to a VCR, etc.)
1 each (?) optical and coaxial digital

Total = 4 audio outputs - 2 digital and 10 RCA

It seems prudent to double the number of stereo analog and digital outputs, allowing room for growth, multi-room/multi-zone, etc. Doing so would bring the total to 7 audio outputs: 4 digital and 12 RCA jacks.Grand total (as spec'd, excluding VGA/RGBHV/SDI/DVI switching): 7 video inputs, 13 audio inputs, 3 video outputs and 7 audio outputs, for a total of 5 S-Video, 10 digital (5 optical, 5 coax) and 46 RCA jacks.

So, there's a basic spec as I see it. Now there are 2 questions...
1) Can this be done? Can we handle this many panel connectors? If not, how far back can/should we reasonably scale this, and in what areas?
2) Is there anybody out there for whom this many inputs/outputs would be insufficient to meet all their switching needs?

Comments? Votes? Suggestions?

Drummerjohn

03-22-03, 04:11 AM

OT a bit -

Elvis or anyone, is there a manual someone can point me to or email me for the Revolution 7.1.

Also, the software you speak of for the Revo that gives bass management - is the standard sw available from M-audio or is this sw thats been tweaked by someone - and where do I get it?

Thanx

ElvisIncognito

03-22-03, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by Drummerjohn
is there a manual someone can point me to or email me for the Revolution 7.1.I don't know of any online Revo manual. The software is the Revo's control panel. Feel free to PM me if you have further questions about it.

Branxx

03-22-03, 10:48 AM

ElvisIncognito,

Your detailed summary of inputs and outputs is IMHO not a right way to go for this application. Inputs and outputs should be only limited by number of PCI slots and type of the cards used.

It is the function of virtual sound driver to assign the meaning to each available audio input, defined what processing is applied, and determine where is it going to be outputted.

Consider an HTPC setup with 3x2-channel in/out cards each from a different manufacturer. Virtual sound driver (VSD) exposes (virtual) SPDIF in that DVD player uses as its default device, VSD then applies AC3/DTS processing and re-directs each pair of wave-outs to each of the physical sound-cards.

In conclusion, there is no need to say 'I need 11 stereo inputs'. It is more like 'use 3xDelta410' and assign input and output as you please.

ElvisIncognito

03-22-03, 10:58 AM

Branxx- I think you're a bit confused/missed a post or two along the way... We're simultaneously discussing two projects in this thread - one is a (software) Audio/Video Control Panel. The other (to which my post was directed) is a (hardware) switching device, designed to give the HTPC greater flexibility with regards to external components by greatly increasing its number of inputs and outputs, and thereby make it more like a conventional preamp/processor.

A/Vspec

03-22-03, 11:01 AM

Can someone give me a little insight into how to get the AC3filter to work to let me input AC3 DD stream from another source?

Bill Gaw2

03-22-03, 11:02 AM

K-Wood and Cliff: This is a little off topic from the discussion, but I'll answer the question.
Years ago, I had an acoustics specialist in from NY who had one of the first MLSSA units. He originally came up to correct room modes and speaker placement for optimal sound. When he saw that I had seven subwoofers, he did an experiment where he ran signal through each unit alone, and measured the room response and modes at various areas in the room especially at my listening position. Because of the size of the room, 16,27,13.5 ft., most of the bad modes were in the 40-80 Hz. region. He adjusted the subs room positions to optimize, that is minimize the peaks and troughs at my main listening position. There was a great improvement in the bass with a drop out of the boominess I had been suffering from. Then he turned on all subs at once, and took the mike around the room and voila, most of the major peaks in other positions had been decreased if not wiped out.
I think the theory is that if you have an infinite number of signals generated in a finite space, then all of the standing waves will null themselves out and you'll get flat frequency response. I'm not sure, but maybe the ocean flatness in the eye of a hurricane might be similar. The sea might be higher but the waves are flatter.
But that is not even the main reason for having individual subwoofers. It's so the subwoofer can be better integrated with the individual speaker. Obviously, the ideal is to have seven full range speakers that will reproduce 16-20KHz with flat frequency response. The second best is to have 7 matched relatively full range speakers with response from 40 to 50 Hz up with subwoofers manufactured by the same company that were factory matched to the speakers. Next best is matched satellite speakers with individual subwoofers or relatively full range speakers with other company subs.
Finally, the lowest is satellite speakers with one subwoofer doing both low frequencies for the 5 channels plus the .1 LFE channel. If you have the ideal full range system, then you can if you wish dispense with a separate sub for the .1 channel and use bass management to transfer the .1 channel into the full range speakers, thus obviating the need for an extra subwoofer and spreading the room modes out, thus smoothing them. That's how I've made up my system: seven 50-20KHZ horns(front left, center, front right, left side, right side, left back, right back,) each with a subwoofer, plus two full range overhead speakers on a beam reproducing the overhead channel on some SACD-DVD-A's and the one I can manufacture using the Smart CS-3X CSII decoder from 5.1.
By the way, a little trick taught to me by Poh Ser Hsu ,manufacturer of HSU subs( which are very inexpensive superb for the price units made on CA.) for those with satellite speakers and one subwoofer, or a .1 dedicated sub. Try placing the sub either under or directly behind the listening position. Two things happen. First, the sub is closer, and thus needs to work much less to get the same volume at the listening position, thus less distortion. Second, all of the room modes are someplace else, thus the frequency response at the listening position is flat. Third, it does a great job vibrating the chair and body. Diusadvantage is that if used as the sub for all of the channels, if not crossed over steeply enough at a low enough frequency, it will distort the sound field.

As far ascomputer inputs are concerned, the question is do we plan the card for present systems, or the future system. Now and in the past we've had multiple analog and digital stereo, pro-logic, AC-3 digital outputs from various pieces of equipment. My system right now consists of:
audio: phono, VCR, SACD-DVD-A, laser, C-band Satellite, DirectTV, DAT, and of course my HTPC. Each channel of output has its own preamp(because no volume control with the 1010.)
Video: DirecTV HDTV, C-band NTSC and HDTV, S-videoVCR, laser disc, Digital camcorder, DVD player, and DVD-HTPC. Line tripling of and reproduction of the NTSC signals by the HTPC through Media Center and my TI-4600 video card. Thus a complex setup to say the least.
I believe this is going to change over the next year or two. While we may need one or two analog inputs, I think everything audio and video will be run through SPDIF, firewire, expanded DVI, USB II, etc. If somebody is going to put the time and energy into doing a card, he will have to plan for obsolence in a couple of years if there are many analog and few digital inputs.
Same thing goes for video. NTSC is dying, as will RGBHV,s-video, composite and component, and SDI is probably already dead as I can't find anybody to modify a DVD player for SDI output now. All video outputs will be digital in the near future. So the wise manufacturer will probably have an external box for analog and SPDIF audio, and the multiple NTSC switching, for all of the soon to be dead or dying analog components with finite lives, with one analog and digital set of outputs to the computer, and have an internal card to accept its output, with multiple firewire, USBII and DVI input switching for digital components. The external box can do switching either by relay, or remote switch or even maybe simply getting off our butts and pressing a button. The internal card may work automatically by sensing signal or by software command. Software will then determine the input's type and route the signal to the proper software decoder for signal processing. One or two HD digital outputs will send the signal to the display for video, and the individual digital audio signals to the D/A convertors or digital amplifiers.
For those old fogies like me that will still have analog projectors and sound systems, there will be audio D/A convertors like the 1010, and either an RGBHV or vga output from the computer, or a digital to RGBHV decoder at the projector.
I went a couple of week ago to Gary Guidi's HI-Rez projector work studio where he showed me the difference between running the signal as RGB to the projector over a 20 ft. run, vs. digtially to a conversion box at the projector, and the difference in picture quality was not subtle. If the box hadn't cost $1800, I would have bought one. Thus, even now, analog transmission of video and audio data is dying.
So plan for a purely digital computer system with an external box with switching capability for the remaining analog stuff.
Bill

ElvisIncognito

03-22-03, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by HTspec
Can someone give me a little insight into how to get the AC3filter to work to let me input AC3 DD stream from another source? That's very OT for this thread. You might try posting in this one: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=239316

ElvisIncognito

03-22-03, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by Bill Gaw2
As far as computer inputs are concerned, the question is do we plan the card for present systems, or the future system.Thanks for the input, Bill. That's a good point. My initial reaction is that we are addressing an immediate need. The issue of an HTPC's deficiencies with regards to inputs/outputs/switching is one of two limitations identified in this thread that impact the HTPC's ability to function as a replacement for commercial preamp/processors today.
...and SDI is probably already dead as I can't find anybody to modify a DVD player for SDI output now.What?! Immersive has stopped doing this? Well, you could always do it yourself (http://diysdi.bonfigleo.com/).
...or even maybe simply getting off our butts and pressing a button.God FORBID! Sacrilege!!! Heretic!!!!! :D
Thus, even now, analog transmission of video and audio data is dying.
So plan for a purely digital computer system with an external box with switching capability for the remaining analog stuff.IMO, digital projection still has a long way to come - not necessarily in the areas of brightness or contrast or detail, but in bulb longevity, and more specifically, in brightness, contrast and detail levels over the life of the bulb. (To say nothing of bulb costs.) Until some significant breakthroughs occur in these areas, there will always be a place for analog video over RGBHV in my HT system. </SOAPBOX>

Still, I see where you're coming from, and it's sound logic. Clearly things will be fully digital in the distant future and mostly digital in the near future (one could make a strong case that this is so even now.) But in, say, two years, when things are even closer to being fully digital, by the same token the HTPC will have evolved, and likely be more commonly used as the digital entertainment hub/control center (it's obviously happening even as we speak, though Microsoft's attempt at an HTPC GUI would need to rise considerably to attain the status of merely "pathetic".) Sources will be increasingly internalized and PCI (or whatever hardware standard might replace it) cards will likely be endowed with greater switching functionality and more digital inputs and outputs. I suspect it won't be long before we start seeing OEM PCs with built in analog I/O panels (probably/logically in the very location I've mentioned previously in this thread.) Until then, we're stuck with what we have now, and I think these limitations need to be met now, without regard to what the future may hold (which undoubtedly will include solutions to current problems, and new problems as well.)

ElvisIncognito

03-22-03, 04:29 PM

On the software side, one of the most significant limitations that has been discussed is the inability to process an incoming (external) digital audio bitstream. I asked Blight about this:
Would it be possible (in Zoom Player) using filter graphs, to support decoding (i.e. using WinDVD's audio filter) of external SPDIF inputs?

In theory you should be able to create a custom graph that would do that. ZP is capable of loading graphedit graphs, so if you can do it in graphedit, you could port that to ZP.Those of you proficient with graphedit, consider this a call to arms! :)

adaseng

03-22-03, 05:10 PM

Elvis,

What's the update on the REVO Drivers? Has M-Audio released the updated driver, if so have you tried it? thanks

Seng

ElvisIncognito

03-22-03, 05:45 PM

Seng- they have (it has problems). I have not tried it. There are threads open discussing this- try a search.

littledeath

03-22-03, 08:22 PM

Just to give my 0.02 regarding the 3.5mm outputs on the Revo . Yes they're pretty much the worst choice as good interconnects for audio . But they can be replaced with anything of your choosing as long as you have some minimal soldering skill . I myself will wait till it goes out of warranty ,then out comes the soldering iron . Using a pair of 6 pin XLRs some decent quality cabling and silver solder I'll nail that sucker. Done it before with other soundcards it is worth the hassle.

deandob

03-22-03, 11:35 PM

Branxx is on the right track with the virtual soundcard drivers & plug ins, as it would give you the best flexibility via a software control panel. The GUI for the virtual soundcard allows you to mix & match connectors ("patching"), and the plug ins allow you to allocate processing / decoding to the relevant patch. Sonic Foundry uses a similar architecture for its pro software, and you purchase processing DirectX plug ins to do whatever you like (eg. effects, noise reduction).

One other thing to consider is a built in audio delay to enable lipsync correction (not sure if this has been mentioned previously).

ElvisIncognito

03-23-03, 12:05 AM

This thread has gotten very off-topic with the discussion of a (software) Audio/Video Control Panel project and a (hardware) Input/Output Switcher project. Not that I mind - I helped take it in this direction, but I think these two projects are far too important to allow them to reside in this thread (where, due to this thread's title, they may be overlooked by people whose involvement might otherwise be beneficial.) So, with that in mind, I've created these two new threads:
HTPC as Preamp/Processor- An Audio/Video Input/Output Switcher (hardware) project (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=240626) and
HTPC as Preamp/Processor- An Audio/Video Control Panel (software) project (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=240624) for all discussions pertaining to these two projects. Please check in there and let us know your thoughts on design specs, etc. I will be doing everything in my power to drive these two projects to a successful completion and will post frequent status updates in those threads.

When those projects are complete, there should be a bunch of new HTPC-as-preamp/processor success stories. Until then, I hope we can get this thread back ON-topic. Hopefully there are still more people with success stories to post. :)

Cliff Watson

03-23-03, 02:27 AM

”I think the theory is that if you have an infinite number of signals generated in a finite space, then all of the standing waves will null themselves out and you'll get flat frequency response.”

Bill,

That is the correct theory for an infinite space (big open field). The only way known to man to create an infinite space from a walled finite space is to create a full anachoic chamber. Of course that is not acceptable by family and friends so the approach in a finite space is to provide bass traps and tri-corner foam blocks.

This idea of using traps and the elimination of tri-corners in a hard room is to absorb far field and boundary (far out-field) reflections creating a larger near field for the sub frequencies (much the same as placing the sub behind or under your listening position).

Bill Gaw2

03-23-03, 09:21 AM

Cliff: An infinite space does not produce standing waves: only finite spaces with boundaries that produce reflections that add and subtract waves with the original signal thus giving nulls and peaks. The trick is to null out the peaks and valleys at the listening position giving smooth response.
There are only four ways of doing this:
`1. Use digital signal processing to add or subtract volume at specific frequencies.
2. Use multiple subs scattered throughout the room that will null out the standing waves at the listening point. Think of the old wave tank experiments from PSA physics. The more points of production there were, the more standing waves were produced, but the lower in height each one was. Remember its not the standing wave itself but its relative volume compared to the rest of the signal. In the bass range one needs several decibels of change to hear an effect compared to the mid range where less that 1/2 dB is audible.
3. Place a subwoofer as closely as possible to you so that you are getting all of the subs energy, with the standing waves occurring elsewhere in the room.
4. Somehow trapping the reflections. With bass this would require either Helmholtz resonators in all corners and side walls with diffraction units several feet thick.
In my room, the back and front walls are covered with diffraction gratings. I had helmholtz resonators in each corner but sold them as they did very little for the cost. Each speaker has its own sub and there is a separate subwoofer for the .1 channel.I have tried DSP for room correction but it is still impractical for multi-speaker installations due to cost. This is why I'm pushing HTPC as if properly set up, this could be done for very little cost compared to the separate units for each channel.
Bill

Cliff Watson

03-23-03, 11:48 AM

Bill said;

"Cliff: An infinite space does not produce standing waves: only finite spaces with boundaries that produce reflections that add and subtract waves with the original signal thus giving nulls and peaks."

Cliff said;

"That is the correct theory for an infinite space (big open field). The only way known to man to create an infinite space from a walled finite space is to create a full anachoic chamber."

Try reading my words for a change, Bill.

From the rest of you post it appears that you have attempted to create a partial anachoic chamber in you room. That’s a far cry from your original post claiming you can control room modes with multiple subwoofers.

Bill Gaw2

03-24-03, 12:03 PM

Possibly I misread your words. I thought you were saying the only way to null out standing waves was to use an infinite number of speakers in an open field. What you meant was that an infinite space is needed to not produce standing waves with any reproducer, and indeed you are correct.
As far as management is concerned, I am not using any room correction below 350 Hz. The resonators only work to 350 Hz, the traps are gone as they made little difference, and I am not using correction software. All that I am using is a sub with each channel.
Resonators do not produce an anechoic chamber, quite the opposite. In an anechoic chamber one uses absorption material to stop reflections. With resonators, such as my RGB diffusers,they are multi chambered units, with each chamber being a specific depth usually 1/4 wavelength for the lowest octave to be affected and in a specific order. What they do is redirect the waves into the room with a latency. This gives the perception of a larger space, usually twice the true size of the room. And the perception goes down only to the lowest wavelength affected by the resonator, in my case about 350 Hz. And there3 is no absorption of bass ewnergy, thus no control over the low frequency standing waves, which are boundary dependant.
To get an effect down to bass levels would require depths of 6-8 feet, which some studios have done building the diffusers using concrete blocks into the back wall.
While I am a high end nut, I haven't tried the concrete block route yet.

Frode H.

04-10-03, 09:57 PM

Good thread! I just read the whole thing, my eyes feel like they are full of sand :)

http://www.m-audio.com/products/m-audio/dio2496.php

Could this be a way of getting an external S/Pdif signal onto the pcibus? Could it possibly be used as an interface to an external switcher?

I have no idea what it costs or what it's capable of doing, I just thought you should know about it.

My Revo is in the mail, so I'll be joining you shortly. I have Kenwood KM-X1 6x100 watt THX approved poweramp, this amp has two sets of inputs, one on 6 RCA's (to only 5.1 capable preamp) and one DB25 "THX" input (Revo). This means I'll be using a "hybrid" system that I hope will get me the best of both worlds:) I hope to be able to share a success story with you later.

OT again, sorry, but I really felt the need to tell somebody:

Am I right in presuming that Cliff works at M-Audio? If so here's a suggestion from me: Why not include something resembling an IDE connector on the card for the inputs and outputs? This way you could sell RCA input/outputbrackets to use with that connector, or people could make their own. I think that this would be inexpensive to make and they make excellent connections. They would also be easy to solder wires directly onto. Most people WANT RCA or better connections for sources that they connect to expensive equipment. Maybe an idea for a "Revolution 2 Platinum" along with a S/Pdif input.

Frode

Jonmx

04-10-03, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Frode H.
Am I right in presuming that Cliff works at M-Audio?

No, Cliff just consults to M-Audio and sells computer equipment catering to HTPCs (see www dot digitalconnection dot com). In return for this, M-Audio stabs him in the back by offering other retailers better deals than they offer him.

ElvisIncognito

04-10-03, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Frode H.
Could this be a way of getting an external S/Pdif signal onto the pcibus? Could it possibly be used as an interface to an external switcher?Frode- The Delta Dio is basically just a sound card, and most sound cards (the Revo is one exception) will take a digital audio input and put the signal on the PCI bus - this is not really a big challenge since many sound cards will do this. The same holds true for interfacing with an external switcher.
Am I right in presuming that Cliff works at M-Audio?Cliff works for Digital Connection, but "has the ear" of M-Audio's president/CEO. (Unfortunately, so do some real idiots within M-Audio's consumer division, apparently...)

AndreasB

04-22-03, 11:14 AM

__Are you using an M-Audio card? Or multi-channel built-in (to the mobo) sound? Or something else?

M-Audio Delta 410

__What about the rest of your configuration?

HTPC: Duron 800Mhz, MSI K7T Pro2A, 192MB SDRAM, 2GB 3600rpm HDD, ATI Radeon 7200, M-Audio Delta 410, Pioneer S106 DVD locked at 2X, IR-man with Pronto and the Dign case. =)

Other: LT150, Alpha Infinity speaker set and a Marantz MM9000.

__What software do you use for DVD (audio) decoding/playback?

WinDVD 4 PE

__What software do you use for playing CDs and/or digital audio files?

WinAMP, mostly used to stream mp3 from my file-server.

__Were you successful "right out of the box" or did you persevere through trials, tribulations and BSODs?

Yes, pretty much, I added the WinDVR patch to WinDVD PE and that solved all problems.
It was a pain to integrate the M-Audio control panel with girder but it works now.

__What advice would you give to those of us who may be about to embark on this journey?

Don't use PowerDVD XP with M-Audio cards, the analog volume is way to low and undynamic.

__Most importantly of all - how satisfied are you with the sound quality?

I'm very satisfied with the sound, but I only have a few friends midrange systems to compare with.

This is a great solution to me. Now I only have to turn on my HTPC and press the "movie" button which turns on the projector, dims the lights and the AMP turns on it self. Most people get really impressed when I tell them to push the movie button and put a dvd in the thing with the lcd display and then my living room instantly adapts to the commands. =)

__What about ease of use/user interface?

I use girder and a pronto. Make the fine tunning with keyb and mouse and then have a extremely simple pronto setup. I have vol+ vol- and mute mapped to the remote.

__What (if any) are your regrets?

I cant preamp the audio streams which make the max volume good for loud dvd playback, but sometimes it would be nice to be able to do extreme :-)

__What changes (if any) would you make? What does your system lack/still need?

I have already connected my thin workstation (its also located in the living room) to the coax input which works very well. My next step is to connect my Technics SL-1200mkII to the two analog inputs.

__What did your HTPC-pre/pro replace and how is its performance relative to the gear it supplanted?

I only replaced a 4 year old receiver which pretty much sucked.

__Have you been able to make any other head-to-head comparisons? If so, please tell us about those.

No.

mrhuhta

06-24-03, 01:47 PM

How about the room correction software. Any progress? I just bought a Revolution soundcard and i´m about to try it as a preamp.

greenkiwi

06-24-03, 06:33 PM

Yeah, I'm very interested in Room Correction software and/or active crossover software.

ElvisIncognito

06-24-03, 08:11 PM

Questions regarding room correction and/or active crossover (or any other HTPC-as-preamp/processor software questions) should be posted to this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=240624

malefactor

07-03-03, 08:36 PM

I hadn't even though of modding the mini headphone jacks to XLR. Good suggestion.

So has anyone done it? Does it produce a difference in sound quality, or did it just make you feel better to have "WBT" and "Neutrik" plastered all over the connectors?

:-)

ccclapp

07-07-03, 06:01 PM

How is the Revo doing these days? Is it still highly recommended for multichannel analog and SPDIF out? Have the driver issues been resolved? Is the control panel (UI) good for both multichannel HT and stereo music?

Finally :) , can one use separate inputs (as in multiple instances of Media Center, etc) going to separate outputs, to use the card for multi source/multi-zone?

Thanks

--Caleb

PS I just bought one from Digital Connection

ElvisIncognito

07-07-03, 07:24 PM

Questions about Revo mods, bugs/status, etc. would probably make for a good new thread. This one is for HTPC-as-preamp/processor success stories and I'd like to keep it on topic. :)

ElvisIncognito

07-12-03, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by Bob Sorel
First of all, I own 4 different M-Audio cards, all bought sequentially, and all which are still in various machines in my home. I started with the original Delta Dio 24/96 (M-Audio's first card introduced for the HT crowd), the Audiophile 24/96, the Delta 410, and now the Revolution 7.1, so I have had plenty of time listening to these cards. Bob- the Revo's sound quality has been the topic of much heated debate lately. AFAIK, thus far we have only Cliff's opinion as to how the Revo's sound is compared to that of the 410.

Considering some of the extraordinary posts (yours included) regarding the performance of a Delta 410-based HTPC vs. high-end consumer pre/pros, it'd be nice to hear additional findings when comparing these two cards.

Since you originally posted this over 4 months ago, and you had a Revo at that time, surely by now you've had time to evaluate its performance relative to the 410... please let us know your thoughts.

Bob Sorel

07-12-03, 04:00 PM

Since you originally posted this over 4 months ago, and you had a Revo at that time, surely by now you've had time to evaluate its performance relative to the 410... please let us know your thoughts.

Hi Elvis,

Sorry, but I really can't offer anything of meaning in way of a comparison. Yes, I have two Revo cards which are installed in my games machine and my bedroom (upstairs) computer, while my Delta 410 is installed in my "big" home theater downstairs. The AP 24/96 isn't doing much right now, but I have plans for it in the future. Here are some immediate and obvious differences:

1. The rooms upstairs are pretty bad, while the room downstairs is completely treated to be as acoustically perfect as I could get it.
2. The two speaker systems upstairs consist of a Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 attached to the analog outs, and the bedroom speakers are Dynaudio Geminis connected to a $300 Pioneer receiver via S/PDIF. The Delta 410 downstairs is connected via S/DIF to a Lex MC-12 and attached to my "home brew" Lambda Unity Horns/dual HE 15 subwoofer. These speakers are many levels higher in quality than the Dynaudios.
3. I would have to install both cards in the same system and carefully level match the outputs to within 0.1 db for starters. All other factors would need to made equal (same speakers, same outboard electronics, same acoustics, etc.).
4. Double blind tests would be needed just to insure that ANY differences could be reliably discerned whatsoever. If a double blind test is failed, then we can pretty much safely conclude that the differences either don't exist, or are so slight as to be undetectable.
5. Then, and only then, if all these conditions were met, could we actually make any meaningful comparisons as to the relative sound quality of the cards.

So, in conclusion, I really can't tell you the difference between the two cards, and I have no motivation to do so. I am extremely satisfied with the performance of both cards, and will continue to use M-Audio cards in the future.

Aside - Anyone who reads the 'High end card shootout" thread can read my thoughts in a little more detail. The comparisons made between those cards were performed so poorly as to have little to no relevance at all, yet I am amazed at how many people are ready to accept the "findings" as Gospel. I'm sorry, but I won't be posting any misinformation in that vein. ;)

I wish I could have been of more help, but I'd rather be honest than to feed people what they want to hear.

ElvisIncognito

07-12-03, 04:16 PM

Thanks for the update, Bob.
Originally posted by Bob Sorel
Anyone who reads the 'High end card shootout" thread can read my thoughts in a little more detail. The comparisons made between those cards were performed so poorly as to have little to no relevance at all, yet I am amazed at how many people are ready to accept the "findings" as Gospel.I realize that you are firmly in the ABX camp whereas I am not (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1628025#post1628025) but we can agree to disagree on that. :)

I still think that you're being a bit harsh on Branxx and Dannydlp - I think every effort was made to insure an even playing field in their tests, and their findings should not be dismissed out of hand - merely taken with a grain of salt.

Bob Sorel

07-12-03, 05:58 PM

I still think that you're being a bit harsh on Branxx and Dannydlp - I think every effort was made to insure an even playing field in their tests, and their findings should not be dismissed out of hand - merely taken with a grain of salt.

Actually Branxx has been quite upfront and candid about his testing procedures, so I have no problem with either him or DannyDLP. I'm more upset about the rest of the forum and the way they have latched onto their casual observations. I mean, this is the same group of people who will inspect software DVD players frame by frame with a microscope looking for the tiniest differences in video quality, making absolutely sure that the testing is fair and level, and then argue for hours on end how one player is better here while another is better there.

Now along comes these audio "tests", which did not even attempt to level match the sources (at the very least), with no scientific evidence (like frequency response graphs, IM and THD graphs, etc.), with just a couple of guys saying "I think card A sounded a lot better than card B", and the forum runs to buy the proclaimed "best buy" card. All of the differences from all of the cards in the tests could have simply been accounted for by differences in playback level, plain and simple, but people ignore that fact completely (and it is a fact, not an opinion). Since no attempt to level match was made, we have no reliable information on which to base our conclusions.

No, Branxx and DannyDLP made no pretenses of conducting valid tests, so I have much respect for their integrity in freely admitting as such. They simply reported what they thought, regardless of whether or not any differences actually exist. Can you imagine if I were to come into the forum and start a thread "High end software DVD player shootout" and I write up a nice review comparing TheaterTek, WinDVD, and PowerDVD, and without as much as presenting a single frame for evidence, I declare that TheaterTek is the winner. I tell everyone that I am using the finest display device available and that I have been viewing DVD's for many years, so I feel that I am somewhat qualified for deciding which is the best player.

People would ask "What happened to the other players, like Zoom Player, Sonic Player, NVDVD, etc.? What evidence do you have that TheaterTek is better? Should we just take your word for it? DId you optimize each player for its best PQ?" I would very justifiably be ridiculed to death for stating opinions with no basis to back them up.

Or maybe everybody would just listen to me, get rid of their current player, and buy TheaterTek just because I said so, right? :rolleyes:

Now the discussion on DBT's can be saved for another occasion! ;)

faithfoo

07-27-03, 09:43 AM

I am a total new bie as far as sound is concerned
I am a bit lost with the forum , so please bear with my questions

My thoughts for a HTPC to hook up to a projector is as follows
( 80% for movies , 20% for music listening)

1) A asus p4p800 motherboard with intel p4 2.6 Ghz (FSB 800) , DDR 400 ( 2* 256 Mb RAM)

2) use opTICAL OR DIGITAL COAXIAL OUTPUT OF THE asus motherboard, hook it to a AV receiver ( yamaha RX 440 RDS) and then to 5.1 speakers + subwoofer ( Yamaha NP 230) . This will allow me to decode DD5.0 and DTS.

3) I can do this with a budget of US 500 for the receiver(US 300) & the 5.1 speakers * sub-woofer ( US 200 , or add another US 300 for mission M73 speakers )

a) is this the best use of the HTPC , or maybe with the same budget or US 100-200 more( total of US 600-700) , I can get a solution to perform much better in sound quality ( or this preamp/processor thing which I am lost )

ElvisIncognito

07-27-03, 08:28 PM

faithfoo-

The whole point of using an HTPC as a preamp/processor is to get you high-end performance at a fraction of what it would otherwise cost...

By buying an M-Audio Revolution card for $99 and a very good quality amplifier (I bought my ATI 1505 for $800 used), you can have performance that rivals systems costing several thousand dollars. Check the posts from Bob Sorel, bbadenov, myself and others and you'll see that this is a reality. However, if your budget is a few hundred dollars for a receiver and a few hundred more for some speakers, that's simply not enough to make the jump from mid-fi to high-end.

RayL Jr.

07-27-03, 09:25 PM

I think RME might be balking at bass management for DD DTS because it's "compressed" psycho-acoustics and isn't like a normal digital stream. They focus on pro audio formats - like linear PCM - that can still be very useful for the HTPC. Their TotalMix for instance - all I/O boxes of the Hammerfall DSP System contain a hardware mixer in TotalMix technology. Any input and output can be routed and mixed to any output.

So they are an excellent "preamp/processor", just not for compressed Surround Sound. Logically I could see suggestions for this “going in one ear and out the other”. I think you can use AC3filter and Zoom Player to get bass management with Dolby Digital. Something with DTS would be nice with software or Zoom Player, but it seems like an awful lot of trouble to bend over backwards for this/these compressed formats. :) I'm still smiling (no I don't have an EQ)...

IOW - it does replace a "high end" audio pre/pro multi thousand dollar mixer (the ones with tons of sliders like at Sam Ash...), just not an "a/v receiver" pre/pro with DD and DTS. :)

Cliff Watson

07-27-03, 10:09 PM

"I think RME might be balking at bass management for DD DTS because it's "compressed" psycho-acoustics and isn't like a normal digital stream. They focus on pro audio formats - like linear PCM - that can still be very useful for the HTPC."

Bass management can't be applied to any compressed format. Linear PCM is is not a professional audio format. LPCM is the same format used in any digital audio system including all consumer soundcards. Infact DD/DTS has to be decoded into LPCM before being sent to a DAC.

RayL Jr.

07-27-03, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by Cliff Watson
Bass management can't be applied to any compressed format. Linear PCM is is not a professional audio format. LPCM is the same format used in any digital audio system including all consumer soundcards. Infact DD/DTS has to be decoded into LPCM before being sent to a DAC. OK, that cleared it up. HAPPY BIRTHDAY AGAIN CLIFF! :D

Bill Gaw2

07-28-03, 09:40 AM

Just downloaded the new 1010 drivers, as they stated they had added control of absolute polarity.
Well it has, but only on the analog inputs. It will not control absolute polarity either on digital inputs or WAV outputs. Too bad, as half of digital tracks arereversed polarity .
Otherwise there doesn't seem to be any sound or usage differences. Still no ability to decode external DD or DTS or pro-logic sources. Guess my pre-pro stays in the system.
Bill

RayL Jr.

07-28-03, 09:23 PM

I think my pre-pro is somewhere in Takrit on the run with Saddam, with no place to hide... :)

milester

07-31-03, 06:04 AM

I've read just about all this thread (though I kinda lost it halfway through) and I still have a few questions about the HTPC as a preamp for stereo.

I've got my speakers (Quad 12Ls) and my source (HTPC with Revo), but i need to buy something to put in between them and i can't decide between an integrated amp (Cyrus 8, Arcam DiVA 85) or a power amp (Quad 99, Arcam 85p, etc) with the Revo as a preamp.

First Q. In the preamp scenario if i use the Revo's volume control, which is presumably going to be set half way or less, will I be degrading the Revo's output? (ie worse signal to noise)

Second. Could a valve/tube power amp be used successfully with the Revo? Anybody tried this?

gareth

Bill Gaw2

07-31-03, 09:36 AM

I use horns with SET 300B amps with the 1010 for great sound. The Revo should be great for direct output to the amps with its built in ability to act as volume controlif all you are doing is listening to stereo from either internal or external sources. and not using external multi-channel sources. Try to use a program with ASIO output. Bill

jcruse

07-31-03, 10:27 AM

What cables/adapters are you guys using to go from the Revo's minijacks to RCA? I've found the one's from Monster for the iPod (I hate Monster, BTW), and right now I'm using some cheapo RadioShack adapters. Kind of defeats the purpose of my Harmonic Tech cables...

ElvisIncognito

07-31-03, 11:31 AM

Welcome to the forum, milester.

Not sure why you'd want to use an integrated amp, as that sort of defeats the whole purpose. (Redundant preamp sections = more possibility of coloration.) As for the Revo's volume control, there is a faction out there that claims that reducing overall signal amplitude via digital methods will alter the signal relative to using a potentiometer. I say that's a bunch of hooey, but you have to make up your own mind on that.

jcruse-
If you're that worried about it, remove those pesky 3.5mm jacks from the Revo and solder on new cables with RCA jack (http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/0416200.pdf) terminations.

All you need is 8 of these: http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&lstdispproductid=269407&e_categoryid=51&e_pcodeid=1602 , some silver cable and a soldering iron.

Bill Gaw2

07-31-03, 11:36 AM

Or hot wire directly to the board.

Pootle

07-31-03, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by milester
Second. Could a valve/tube power amp be used successfully with the Revo? Anybody tried this?

Well, nearly been there, I was loaned a pair of Quad II's for a week, but in those days I was still using the delta card. As far as I could tell they were quite happy being driven direct from the delta, although they didn't get on very well with my speakers (B&W 804), whether driven from the revo, or from a nice valve pre-amp;
through some cheaper speakers I had, it all worked nicely, but valve sound is not my choice really. I'm on Naim now, and my Quad friend has gone bi-amped - and that DID make a difference!

ElvisIncognito

07-31-03, 01:34 PM

There's absolutely no reason why a tube amp should behave any differently that a solid state amp using an HTPC as preamp/processor. They are both designed for/expecting to see the same types of input impedances and amplitudes.

milester

07-31-03, 01:56 PM

Thanks for the welcome and the advice.

I'm getting more tempted each day by the tube amp solution, but with my budget it looks like a Power amp is the way to go. If I were to get a integrated then the preamp section would by acting something like a stepped attenuator I guess. In which case I'd be better off with some form of passive preamp anyway.

Gotta admit I'm still wondering whether the digital attenuation that the volume slider does (in the Revo software) is going to be as good as something like the Creek OBH-10 passive preamp. A long shot.. anyone ABXed it?

gareth

ElvisIncognito

07-31-03, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by milester
Gotta admit I'm still wondering whether the digital attenuation that the volume slider does (in the Revo software) is going to be as good as something like the Creek OBH-10 passive preamp. A long shot.. anyone ABXed it?I have an old Philips integrated amp which I've modified heavily to act as nothing more than an input selector and passive preamp (proof is in the pudding - still works even w/the power OFF.)

I have compared the sound both with and without this passive component in the signal path. I can hear no difference whatsoever.

milester

07-31-03, 03:18 PM

Thanks ElvisIncognito,

Thats good news. Looks like the Revo is going to save me a lot of hard earned cash.

ElvisIncognito

07-31-03, 03:32 PM

No need to thank me... just send me a small percentage of all that hard-earned cash you're saving! :D

faithfoo

08-03-03, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
faithfoo-

The whole point of using an HTPC as a preamp/processor is to get you high-end performance at a fraction of what it would otherwise cost...

By buying an M-Audio Revolution card for $99 and a very good quality amplifier (I bought my ATI 1505 for $800 used), you can have performance that rivals systems costing several thousand dollars. Check the posts from Bob Sorel, bbadenov, myself and others and you'll see that this is a reality. However, if your budget is a few hundred dollars for a receiver and a few hundred more for some speakers, that's simply not enough to make the jump from mid-fi to high-end.

1) I am thinking of buying an asus p4p800 motherboard with intel p4 2.6 Ghz (FSB 800)

2) but the motherboard only has DIGITAL COAXIAL OUTPUT( no optical )

a) is this good enough for 5.1 movies , I am not particular about music on 2 channel playback. ( I Am particular about sound of nature such as wind, sea waves, sounds made by animals..etc ..)

3) thanks for your power amp recommendation. I believe I will need another US 800 for a decent set of speakers.

a) I reckon I will probably get about half of what you get via your set up
BUT I JUST WANTED TO KNOW , WITH MY BUDGET; IS THIS THE BEST WAY TO GO ABOUT DOING IT

i.e hook the digital coaxial output of motherboard to an AV receiver ( yamaha RX 440 RDS) and then to 5.1 speakers + subwoofer ( Yamaha NP 230) .
b) This will allow me to decode DD5.0 and DTS.

3) I can do this with a budget of US 500 for the receiver(US 300) & the 5.1 speakers * sub-woofer ( US 200 , or add another US 300 for mission M73 speakers )

QN ) is this the best use of the HTPC , or maybe with the same budget or US 100-200 more( total of US 600-700) , I can get a solution to perform much better in sound quality ?

a) For instance shift the US 100 budget to a M-Audio Revolution card and spent a US 100 less on a set of 5.1 speakers.

pen25

08-04-03, 09:55 PM

i have read through some well half of this thread. I am wondering if you all thought about desiging the card around a 1394b input/output could be an external dongle or internal. front or rear mountable. the ability of mounting the device in the caband the puter else where.

pen25

08-04-03, 09:58 PM

sorry was just reading elvis's webpage and jumped over to the sourcefordge site and see you all are already on the 1394b/usb2. remember 1394b is a new standard but has up to 800meg and usb2 is a set standard. 1394 has a built in hub usualy and usb doesnt.

faithfoo

08-09-03, 02:38 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
faithfoo-

The whole point of using an HTPC as a preamp/processor is to get you high-end performance at a fraction of what it would otherwise cost...

By buying an M-Audio Revolution card for $99 and a very good quality amplifier (I bought my ATI 1505 for $800 used), you can have performance that rivals systems costing several thousand dollars. Check the posts from Bob Sorel, bbadenov, myself and others and you'll see that this is a reality. However, if your budget is a few hundred dollars for a receiver and a few hundred more for some speakers, that's simply not enough to make the jump from mid-fi to high-end.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) I am thinking of buying an asus p4p800 motherboard with intel p4 2.6 Ghz (FSB 800)

2) but the motherboard only has DIGITAL COAXIAL OUTPUT( no optical )

a) is this good enough for 5.1 movies , I am not particular about music on 2 channel playback. ( I Am particular about sound of nature such as wind, sea waves, sounds made by animals..etc ..)

3) thanks for your power amp recommendation. I believe I will need another US 800 for a decent set of speakers.

a) I reckon I will probably get about half of what you get via your set up
BUT I JUST WANTED TO KNOW , WITH MY BUDGET; IS THIS THE BEST WAY TO GO ABOUT DOING IT

i.e hook the digital coaxial output of motherboard to an AV receiver ( yamaha RX 440 RDS) and then to 5.1 speakers + subwoofer ( Yamaha NP 230) .
b) This will allow me to decode DD5.0 and DTS.

3) I can do this with a budget of US 500 for the receiver(US 300) & the 5.1 speakers * sub-woofer ( US 200 , or add another US 300 for mission M73 speakers )

QN ) is this the best use of the HTPC , or maybe with the same budget or US 100-200 more( total of US 600-700) , I can get a solution to perform much better in sound quality ?

a) For instance shift the US 100 budget to a M-Audio Revolution card and spent a US 100 less on a set of 5.1 speakers.

ElvisIncognito

08-09-03, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by faithfoo
I JUST WANTED TO KNOW , WITH MY BUDGET; IS THIS THE BEST WAY TO GO ABOUT DOING IT The reason your post went unanswered the first time is that (A) it's off-topic - this is a thread for posting your story after successfully setting up an HTPC as a preamp/processor - NOT for getting feedback or approval on a system configuration! (B) You're not even talking about using your HTPC as a pre/pro - you just want to use SPDIF out to a receiver. Neither your first post, nor its repeat belong in this thread. (C) Your question has already been answered!!!The whole point of using an HTPC as a preamp/processor is to get you high-end performance at a fraction of what it would otherwise cost...

By buying an M-Audio Revolution card for $99 and a very good quality amplifier (I bought my ATI 1505 for $800 used), you can have performance that rivals systems costing several thousand dollars. Check the posts from Bob Sorel, bbadenov, myself and others and you'll see that this is a reality. However, if your budget is a few hundred dollars for a receiver and a few hundred more for some speakers, that's simply not enough to make the jump from mid-fi to high-end.Apparently you didn't like the answer you got, so you're going to keep asking the question until you get one you DO like... Well, do it in some other thread, please. It does not belong HERE.

MrSensitive

10-27-03, 07:54 AM

I don't know how you guys are doing on this project, but these DIY kits look interesting with regards to this project...

http://www.bmm-electronics.com/Product.asp?Product_ID=4

http://www.bmm-electronics.com/Product.asp?Product_ID=59

http://www.bmm-electronics.com/Product.asp?Product_ID=67

Saturn_AD

10-31-03, 01:10 AM

Okey just sold my Flagship Rotel RSX-1065 Receiver. :(
Now what?
The HTPC has been built for some time. I already have the Bryston 4B amps. Got the Maggies MG12 for the front and the PMC Db1 for rears. NO center channel. So is the M-audio card still the champ?....how about the new SB Audigy 2 ZS?
These are the prices I can get em for:

http://us.creative.com/products/welcome.asp?category=1

Audiogy 2 ZS Platinum $240cdn

Audiogy 2 ZS Platinum Pro $300cdn

Audiogy 2 ZS $123cdn

Any advantages with going with the higher model?

Will these cards do my Phantom center channel properly? Is stereo listening as good as CD player(with volume comtrol) direct to amp. It was either this or a Bryston SP1 Pre/Surround Processor

Thanks for any info;
Saturn
http://www.spacelofts.com/x1/

Eiffel

10-31-03, 11:50 AM

Saturn-- I don't want to add oil to the fire, but I just completed the opposite move...

I had been trying to get my M-Audio 410 to interface directly with monoblock amps, and fried tweeters for the second time (The ability to listen to radio with a good quality tuner and the lack of multichannel support in TT also played a role). I bought the entry level Rotel receiver (RSX-1055), and must say that this has made my life much easier: the speaker pops are gone, I now have support for more formats (still missing DTS96/24, DVD-A and SACD but my library in these formats is very short). Controlling my receiver via the serial interface gives me about the same level of control I had with the M-Audio 410 applet, although in a more convenient way (I was able to duplicate the receiver display on my VFD, and to make girder aware in real time of the status of the receiver... something which is hard to do with the M-audio drivers).

I can't comment on sound quality yet (as two of my tweeters are DOA).

I do agree that using an HTPC as preamp/processor is the holy grail, but, I don't have the time to visit silly places like Camelot ;)

da_burl

11-02-03, 11:15 AM

A little bumpage here! I am joining this quest as well. Briefly, I had been using a rather pedestrian Onkyo receiver, the SP/DIF out, and I have some homebrew speakers with Vifa drivers, the center is a Madisound MTM, and the mains are non-shielded 2-ways, a NHT1250 sub with the Parts Express 250W plate amp, and <gasp> 2 - Cerwin Vega bookshelfs for the rears (I know, I know).
I had this nice Parasound 6 channel amp sitting around, but never had a high end pre/pro, just an older matching Parasound DPL preamp, so I retired this setup with the advent of DD and DTS when I got the HDTV and Onkyo receiver. At that time, I admit I didn't do enough research, because my Onkyo had the 5.1 inputs, but no line-level outputs, so I can't use it with the Parasound amp.
My HTPC consists at this time of an ASUS A7N8X Deluxe with an Athlon XP 1700+ currently running at 2113MHZ, or somewhere around an XP 2300.
Believe it or not, I just finished hooking up the Parasound amp and sub amp directly to the analog outputs of the Nforce2 Soundstorm sound. I wasn't really expecting a lot at this point, because I am closely following this thread, and trying to decide between the Revo 7.1 or the 410.
The results, well it doesn't sound all that horrible, in fact, it is quite an improvement over what I had, the warmth and musicality of my original system is pretty much back, using the Parasound amp must have helped quite a bit here, the analog outs of this Nforce m/b can't be all that great, at least that's what I have read. I used those little 1/8" stereo to RCA adapters, with my previous "high-end" interconnects, and some RG6 homemades for the sub and rears.
Now, it does leave something to be desired in the usability/WAF arena. Of course, I can control it, but I don't believe my wife is going to be too keen on going into the NForce control panel to change between DVD and the sat receiver inputs, and then check or uncheck a few other options, then adjust the levels. I haven't even begun to try to automate this, because I will at some point add one of the M-Audio cards.
But overall, I think for my somewhat simple setup, I can live without DD Decoding for now, and just use the analog outputs doing psuedo Dolby Pro Logic matrix decoding for the Sat Receiver/OTA HD viewing. I suppose the Revo would help here, with the Circle Surround capability.
Anyway, I haven't really done extensive listening, but with all the right boxes set, and levels tweaked, DVD's sound pretty darn good, using the internal DD 5.1/DTS decoding of ZP and Windvd or Powerdvd audio filters, and I intend to continue down this path.
2 Channel sounds really good too, although the Nforce doesn't have a 2.1 setting, so its pretty much put it in 5.1 mode and turn down the center and rear speakers in the Nforce Control Panel.
This is good, because I was planning on getting an Outlaw 950 for $800 someday, and $800 can buy some other pretty nice stuff if I can successfully do this with the HTPC alone, like at least some matching rear speakers (2 or four, depending in if I try 5.1 or 7.1)
I should be there when I decide on the next sound card, and spend a couple of days with Girder!!

Stormwind

11-29-03, 01:57 PM

I'm kind of late to the thread, but I've had good success using my HTPC without a receiver/pre-amp.

My home theater is described here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=331380).

I'm currently looking for a way to decode the AC3 from the SPDIF out of my SA 3100HD cable box via the SPDIF in of my spare sound card (SB Live!) or a different card (don't mind buying one as long as it gets along with my Revo), and output the decoded AC3 audio via my Revo. If such a program does not exist I'm thinking of coding one to use the AC3Filter library. For more information, see this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=331388).

ElvisIncognito

12-07-03, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by Eiffel
Saturn-- I don't want to add oil to the fire, but I just completed the opposite move...Me, too. Just bought a Lexicon DC-2 (at a nice price including interconnects and next-day shipping!) WAF is just so much higher with STBs. HTPC will now be used primarily as a scaler/DVD player and digital audio (APE) jukebox. It's a pity- I still believe the HTPC will one day do to audio processors what it has done to video processors, but for now, there just isn't enough interest in writing the software (at least not from those with the skills to make it happen.) Further exacerbating the situation is the fact that the leading suppliers of software DVD players are far less concerned about audio than video, so surround decodes are lacking relative to high-end STB preamp/processors. Then there are the audio-centric media players that are unconcerned with decoding AC3, DTS or providing any matrixed sorround modes (to say nothing of processing external digital inputs)... It all adds up, sadly, to the conclusion that, while the hardware may be capable, the software is just not there yet. I wish it were otherwise, and I look forward to the day that all the pieces are in place, but for now, I've abandoned the dreamers and joined the ranks of the realists.

eggz

12-07-03, 03:26 AM

WAF is just so much higher with STBsAmen.

Elvis -- how does the sound quality compare to your HTPC/Revo set-up? Even a used Lexicon (or Meridian) with DTS software upgrades probably cost more than your whole HTPC (MSRP is about twice my HTPC's cost) so it better sound phenomenal. Does it blow your HTPC away?

antorsae

12-07-03, 06:18 AM

Hi guys,

I'm very late on this thread, but anyway:

HTPC:
- AOPEN AX4PE MAX (with on-board SPDIF out)
- M-Audio Revolution
- Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS
- P4 3 Ghz HT FSB 800
- RADEON 9500 PRO (soon to be upgraded to 9800 XT)

Receiver/amp, 7.1:
- Onkyo TX-SR600E (is a 6.1 receiver, but I only use 5.1 as I have 7.1 setup)
- Sherwood ???? for the rear 2 channels.
- Front speakers: Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home
- "Other" speakers: Infinity alpha II (5.1)

Connections:
- M-Audio revolution used as 2-channel only feeding ONKYO CD input (music)
- SB A2ZS feeding multichannel (5.1) Onkyo DVD input as well as Sherwood CD input (for rear 2 channels)
- MOBO SPDIF out to ONKYO COAX input.

MUSIC: I am using foobar2K and winamp with 2-channel setup for music (plan to use DRC (http://www.mooneyass.com/DRC/DRC.html) ) with the M-Audio REVO (the REVO is the winner for me here by a long shot). APE jukebox.

DVDs with Theatertek: Would have loved to use SB A2ZS setup as the rear channels carry the same information as the surround channels (L,R) and the it sounds inmersive, but unfortunately stutter and sync issues occur when using SB A2ZS. So I'm using onboard SPDIF out for it.

Games: I use SB A2ZS (btw: I haven't even tried the revo as my ONKYO setup only has 1 multi-channel input...)

In addition, I have treated my HT room with sound absorbers (DIY type) and diffusors (Auralex T-Fusors) for better sound. I feel my amp is not a match for the speakers but I want to try DRC to see if it corrects the whole sound chain.

If DRC works in my environment, would be great!!!

/Andres

ElvisIncognito

12-07-03, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by eggz
how does the sound quality compare to your HTPC/Revo set-up? Even a used Lexicon (or Meridian) with DTS software upgrades probably cost more than your whole HTPCThe Lex hasn't arrived yet, so I can't really comment on relative SQ, but considering threads from a few months ago that found Denon receivers superior to HTPCs (at least for surround decoding), my expectations are fairly high.

As for price, I have about 50% more money in the HTPC than I paid for the Lex, so the HTPC is certainly no bargain.

eggz

12-07-03, 12:15 PM

I remember reading a review about the Lex DC-2 (back when it was spanking new) and recall that it could only be upgraded (e.g. from THX to AC3 or DTS) by a certified dealer, because the manufacturer was so concerned about software piracy. Given your energetic advocacy of using the HTPC as a next-generation pre/pro that seems ironic. If even vendors of relatively high end hardware are concerned about piracy what motivation would anyone have to develop for the wild, wild west PC world?

From a purely software point of view, it has always seemed to me that the pre/pro project would really best extend from the OS up -- so that there was a lean, unified API that would allow users to purchase desired OOP modules that would work together in a seamless fashion. Given the lack of innovation from both M$ (to whit XP MCE) and Apple in this respect, I guess the perceived market is just too small to justify such an investment.

Cliff Watson

12-07-03, 12:43 PM

Elvis,

Looks like you gave up shortly after I did.

I did try hard for 3 years to advance HTPC audio, but got pissed off at the computer industry (hardware & software) and stopped trying. I realized that my dream was just that, a dream and it was not going to happen in my lifetime.

I spent the money for a modern preamp (with outstanding digital/analog bass management), SACD and DVD-a STBs, high quality analog multi-channel switch box, a BFD to shape the subwoofer frequency response and I’m now very happy with my HT. I still use the HTPC but only for DVD/HDTV with audio decoded by the preamp. In the long run the HTPC is still cost effective for video scaling.

P.S., How is the house repair going?

uncledeathmonkey

12-08-03, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by ElvisIncognito
I look forward to the day that all the pieces are in place, but for now, I've abandoned the dreamers and joined the ranks of the realists.
Originally posted by Cliff Watson
Elvis, Looks like you gave up shortly after I did.
I did try hard for 3 years to advance HTPC audio, but got pissed off at the computer industry (hardware & software) and stopped trying.
*sniff*
I think I might just cry...

Many thanks to both of you for advancing the cause...

I am confident the pieces will drop into place well within our lifetimes,
the potential is there and the benefits are real...

Y'all are just well outside the curve is all. :D

Bill Gaw2

12-08-03, 08:37 AM

Maybe you gave up a wee bit too soon. Have been testing the new NVDVD software, and it does allow separate volume channel control for the M-Audio 1010 for DD and DTS, at least for 5.1. It will not do 6 or 7.1, but the M-Audio drivers will certainly allow reproduction of the extra channels, as it is only a matrixing function and not true separate channels.
Sound is superb, as good as anyting PowerDVD and WINDVD can do, and comes very close to my EAD Theatermaster 8000 PRO, one of the best high end pre-pro's.
Only problem for me is that I encoded all of my CD's to drive with PE for MediaCenter Playback, and have to use that program to reencode to wave before NVDVD or whatever they'll call it, will play it back.
The program also has DPLII with four separate surround field options, for playback of 2 channel music.
There' no mention of ability of decoding DVD-A, but it can be set up for 24 bit decoding.
Also, it still doesn't have external TV decoding available, so don't know whether it will control separate volume for each channel wih external DD sources.
Glad I didn't give up.
Bill

malefactor

12-08-03, 08:48 AM

What do you guys (Cliff, Elvis) gauge to be the demand level for something like this?

It would seem to me that holo3d is mostly barely scraping by, and they have a product along the lines of what you seek. The problem with implementing this, as far as I can see, is that there is a fairly elaborate hardware design that must be in place--but minimal market of purchasers.

The software is no treat either, as it would appear that it's going to be whacked by the DMCA the minute it is released if it were an open sourceish thing (ie, not holding a license to dolby etc.. but did the Revo get around that with 'circle surround'?); but if it were done by a company with proper licensing the similar, earlier problem applies: can money be made on this?

I think there's enough of a niche that a company COULD get in there, make it, market both the individual board and complete, pretty HTPCs, and scrape by. But I just don't think they're going to get rich without a lot of luck..

Cliff Watson

12-08-03, 02:10 PM

"I think there's enough of a niche that a company COULD get in there, make it, market both the individual board and complete, pretty HTPCs, and scrape by. But I just don't think they're going to get rich without a lot of luck.."

The only way this will come about is through MCE with MS in complete control of all software and hardware. Small builders need not apply.

eggz

12-08-03, 03:25 PM

The only way this will come about is through MCE with MS in complete control of all software and hardwareIt is more likely that Apple could exercise that sort of control over the Mac platform (they do already). While an HTPC Mac might be the sort of novel "killer app" Apple craves, I'm not holding my breath.

ElvisIncognito

12-08-03, 04:12 PM

antorsae - If you review the thread, you'll find that your configuration does not meet the criteria for "HTPC as preamp/processor" - you are using your HTPC as a source, feeding a receiver (which serves as the preamp/processor, among other things.) Not that it really matters, tho...
Originally posted by eggz
I remember reading a review about the Lex DC-2 (back when it was spanking new) and recall that it could only be upgraded (e.g. from THX to AC3 or DTS) by a certified dealer, because the manufacturer was so concerned about software piracy. Given your energetic advocacy of using the HTPC as a next-generation pre/pro that seems ironic. If even vendors of relatively high end hardware are concerned about piracy what motivation would anyone have to develop for the wild, wild west PC world?My advocacy (as you may have noticed) has become far less than enthusiastic, but the DC-2 that I bought comes with ALL the bells & whistles, so I'm all set, there! :D and As for Lexicon, any sort of software upgrade would be inherently reverse-engineerable; the outstanding (unmatched) performance of Lexicon's proprietary Logic 7 technology (and its derivatives) is what sells their products (at least their consumer/home theater products), so I can't say I blame them for their paranoia.From a purely software point of view, it has always seemed to me that the pre/pro project would really best extend from the OS up -- so that there was a lean, unified API that would allow users to purchase desired OOP modules that would work together in a seamless fashion. Given the lack of innovation from both M$ (to whit XP MCE) and Apple in this respect, I guess the perceived market is just too small to justify such an investment. The extensible framework you refer to is called DirectShow, but, as you pointed out, the motivation for developing high quality DirectShow filters for surround sound is lacking, and those who could do so - and do it well are either afraid of piracy, or they don't see a significant market (or both)...

Nowhere is there to be found a higher concentration of home theater/HTPC enthusiasts than right here on AVS Forum, but even within that context, you have to subtract...
Those deluded members who think that MCE is wonderful...
Those who overtly express their inclination to illegally obtain and even distribute copyrighted content...
Those who think that the performance from a Denon receiver is just fine...
Those who can afford to avoid the setup, configuration, usability and reliability issues of an HTPC by simply buying a very high quality STB preamp/processorThat leaves a very, very (prohibitively) small market. I suspect that there is far more progress made (on an annual basis) by those who seek to eliminate the PC as a HT component (RIAA, MPAA) than by those who seek to advance the HTPC as a high performance, low cost one-box-does-it-all audio/video storage/playback/processing solution. Even within the forum, we are divided... If you visit the Plasma forum, you'll find that most people there view the absence of HDCP as undesirable. (Meanwhile we all view HDCP as a threat to truth, justice, fair use and the HTPC way!) The odds are against us- enjoy it while you can.