Are you seeing the FULL image you paid for!?

[_Michaelangelo_]

Subtitle: "Michaelangelo's Image Size and Position Calibrating Made Easy"

Note: I wrote these instructions for my Panasonic TH-42PWD5UY Plasma. You'll have to find the equivalent buttons / functionality for your specific Plasma. i.e. Pioneer, Fujistu. Feel free to post them here so everything is kept together.

Background:

I was checking out Rich Harkness' excellent Plasma screenshots when I noticed that I wasn't seeing the same full size images as him on my Panny. :(

i.e.
http://www.pbase.com/image/14169052
DVD: Monsters Inc
Scene: Randall Lockers, Chapter 7, Timestamp 0:11:06.5

Furthermore, I was having a real hard time calibrating the optimal Horizontal / Vertical size and position settings (especially when the Component settings are almost identical to S-Video ones) because I kept getting frustrated at these problems:

1) There are no numbers displayed for either H-Pos/Size or V-Pos/Size!! :confused: WTF. Brightness, Contrast, etc., have numbers (-30 .. +30) but not Pos/Size? Bad UI designer - no cookie for you!

2) Sometimes the slider arrow will move and there will be no noticable change, other times the slider arrow doesn't appear to move yet there is a noticable change. :eek:

3) The darn slider bar for each setting keeps timing out after 0.5 seconds of "inactivity" and going back to menu! Makes fine tuning almost impossible :mad: (NOTE: A workaround is to hit the left or right button *twice* quickly. The first press brings up the slider control, the second press makes one adjustment, and then you're brought back to the menu.)

After thinking about the problem, I found an elegant solution that makes it *real* easy way to set the H-Pos, H-Size, V-Pos, and V-Size. Here's what to do:

Calibration:

1. Display an image with a white border.

The Avia Home Theater DVD: Advanced Video Test Patterns, Special, Overscan, is the perfect calibration image. (Sorry, don't know the corresponding Sound & Vision calibration image. Anyone? Beuller?)

Note: You could also use The Matrix (on Zoom mode) if you don't have Avia. It is not accurate, but it's better then nothing -- at least you will be in the ballpark.

Matrix Timestamp (Hour:Min:Sec.Frame)
Chapter 12, 0:39:32.1

2. Enter the "Set Up" menu, select Screensaver, change the Function to Negative, and select Mode: On.

Thankfully, the Panny will keep the inverted image while we're free to make adjustments! Kudos to the design team on this one.

3. Press "Picture Pos./Size"

4. Decrease the V-Size and H-Size. (Move the slider all the way to the left.)

You should see a white border. Our goal is (obviously) to:

a) Have the image centered
b) Have no white showing, but minimize the amount of scene pixels "lost past" the edge. i.e. Have no overscan, or underscan.

5. To calibrate the V-Position and V-Size:

I found that it was easiest to change these two settings in tandem, then finalize V-Pos, and lastly fine-tune V-Size.

Temporarily increase the V-Size until you have just a sliver of white showing at either the top or bottom.

After you make one adjustment to the V-Pos, make one adjustment to the V-Size. You will be alternating setting one then the other. Repeat until one last adjustment of the V-Size hides the White Overscan at the top and bottom.

One done, one more to go! (I said it would be easy. :))

6. Adjust the H-Position and H-Size

I would just be repeating the previos step here, since the procedure is exactly the same for the horizontal settings.

7. You should be all set, and see the FULL image you paid for!

One last step!

Verification

After I calibrated the Size & Position for both horizontal and vertical scaling
I noticed I could see these in the Randall Locker scene:
Sorry, no screenshot(s) yet.

a) The start of the '3' of the '358' located in the top left.

b) You should be almost be able to see the end of the "hole" inside the upper loop in the "8" and the start of the far right edge of the "8", in the bottom right.

i.e. Ascii Art


___
| >| Can almost see the start of this edge.
|___|
| |
|___|


My old 25" CRT TV cut off about an 1" of either side :( so I really appreciate having ZERO overscan on the new Plasma. Widescreen movies look great!

Happy viewing!

[cheridave]

I don't think anybody has posted instructions for "Overscan/Underscan" for the Panasonic here. Thanks and good work. Should be helpful to some of the newbies.

Dave

[mattg3]

I dont think its possible to change overscan ratio with Pioneer plasma but I probably just dont know how to do it.

[Jim Boden]

mattg3:

You can make vertical size adjustments in Integrator Mode, which means you can make the picture a little taller or shorter.

[DaveST]

I purchased my Panny TH-42PWD5UY last November and one of the first things I did was correct the massive overscan. I didn't notice it so much on its "Full" aspect setting but "Just"ify was cutting off the bottom, scrolling ticker-tape info. thingy on cable channels like CNN and The Weather Channel.

I painstakingly adjusted the V-POS/SIZE and H-POS/SIZE until I could see the edges of the picture using just my cable box's Composite output set to CNN. Then I realized, I still had it set to "Just"ify aspect mode. Oops--back to the drawing board. I set the Panny to "Full" and started over. Perfect! And now I'm hard-pressed to notice if I'm using Full or Justify as Justify hardly cuts-off anything of value.

But wait; are all cable channels centered and showing everything? I changed channels. Rats! Now some channels are shifted too far to the left. I can see a black edge running down the right side of some cable channels. The cable box must affect the position too. I moved the H-POS a bit to the right and H-SIZE three-clicks "longer." Now that channel looks good. Back to CNN and that looks good enough. I can still see a couple of vertical pixel columns when I go right up to the glass and look under that black boarder that runs around the edge but it's fine from a distance.

I sit back and relax and enjoy. But oh no, please tell me these settings will be okay for Component and S-Video inputs? Noooo! S-Video is okay but Component (my DVD player's input into the Panny) is way off. The various inputs have separate settings (which is the way it should be.) Fine! I adjust the position settings for the Component input and now that's set properly.

Finally, every input, using every aspect ratio, watching any source is showing as much as possible. I'm now off to the doctor's to see if she can adjust my Obsessive Compulsive Behavior disorder problem.

[ThumperBoy]

Use an AVIA DVD's overscan and other geometry test patterns to accurately center and set the screen size for each input and mode.

[R Harkness]

_Michaelangelo_,

Hey dude, ya just beat me to it. I've been working on a post about tweaking the Panny, including adjustment of overscan and fun-with-picture-settings. Luckily, you've just made my post shorter :)

Did you actually find there to be much overscan in your component signal?
I didn't - just a smidge. Whereas my S-Video signal had significant over-scan, and benefited greatly from it's reduction.

If you did have significant overscan, did you see any benefits as far as a sharper, more precise picture?

As DaveST found out, reducing over-scan can be a bit hairy when it comes to viewing cable/sat channels. The variation in channel's image size and centering is a big reason over-scan is designed into the image, so you don't have the problem of seeing the edge of off-center or smaller images when you change channels. If you have your wobbler on, reducing overscan severely can be even more problematic, as the edge of the picture will keep wobbling into view.

It's best if you can have an input dedicated to one source, so you don't have to keep adjusting. Luckily, I have my S-Video input dedicated to my DVD player, so that helps. My other sources: cable, VCR, HDTV, Video Camera input, are all routed into my component input, via my receiver and a video switcher. I don't bother much with overscan on my component input. Except sometimes I'll put it into "ZOOM" for cable channels. Then I reduce horizontal and vertical size. Since ZOOM doesn't geometrically distort the image, you can get a nice, sharp screen-filling 16:9 image out of NTSC signals by reducing overscan like this.

[btwyx]

I did mine using the AVIA overscan pattern, and the service menus*. I adjust all the size and position settings until all the edges of the screen are at the same % tick mark on the pattern. The ideal is between 0 and 5%. With 0% overscan, you find some sources have ragged edges, so I don't go that far. 5% is where the "Title safe" area ends, its marked on the overscan pattern. (Title safe means if you keep captions within this area, all TVs should be able to see them.) I adjusted the panel to 2% for component input and 7.5% for S-Video. (The adjustment is a per input basis.)

I use that much overscan on S-Video, as it eliminates black bars on a lot of BBC America programs (we watch a lot of BBC America). They seem to have been shot in 16:10 just to be difficult and are broadcast with slim black bars at about 10% overscan. In "Just" mode the bars just dissapear.

*I'm not saying how to get into the service menus as you can kill your display if you're not careful.

[_Michaelangelo_]

Originally posted by R Harkness
_Michaelangelo_,

Hey dude, ya just beat me to it. I've been working on a post about tweaking the Panny, including adjustment of overscan and fun-with-picture-settings. Luckily, you've just made my post shorter :)

<joking>
Take that! Oh wait, I submitted this one :)

<seriously>
Looking forward to your tweaking thread !

You know, we should start a Panny tweaking "FAQ". If you wouldn't mind, it could link to my Banding torture test, this thread, my sharpness tests (when I get around to posting them), and my (future) cable test shootout. I'll also be comparing the RP-82 and RP-91. (Found the RP-91 in stock at B&H! Woot!)

Besides, the Grand Wega II can't have the only "Tweaking" PDF around here :)


Did you actually find there to be much overscan in your component signal?
I didn't - just a smidge. Whereas my S-Video signal had significant over-scan, and benefited greatly from it's reduction.


*minor doh* Just when I get it all calibrated, I need to reset it :)

Wait a min ... *checks back of Panny manual where I wrote down the H/V Pos/Size settings* ... Ok, both were almost identical. Granted the display was only hooked up to a DVD player, so I don't know if it needed more tweaking for the (game) consoles.


If you did have significant overscan, did you see any benefits as far as a sharper, more precise picture?


Sorry, didn't really pay attention before or after, since the image already looked awesome.


As DaveST found out, reducing over-scan can be a bit hairy when it comes to viewing cable/sat channels.


No comment -- Don't watch cable/sat. Was good to know though.



If you have your wobbler on, reducing overscan severely can be even more problematic, as the edge of the picture will keep wobbling into view.


Ok call me a newbie, but what wobbler? :confused: Where and what is it?


It's best if you can have an input dedicated to one source, so you don't have to keep adjusting. Luckily, I have my S-Video input dedicated to my DVD player, so that helps. My other sources: cable, VCR, HDTV, Video Camera input, are all routed into my component input, via my receiver and a video switcher. I don't bother much with overscan on my component input. Except sometimes I'll put it into "ZOOM" for cable channels. Then I reduce horizontal and vertical size. Since ZOOM doesn't geometrically distort the image, you can get a nice, sharp screen-filling 16:9 image out of NTSC signals by reducing overscan like this.

Yes, I agree. Keeping an input dedicated to one source is perfect. Unfortunately the DVD Player, PS2, and XBox are all sharing the component input. Need that Nordost S-Video cable...

For some reason, the Wide-Screen version of "A Bug's Life" was WAY too narrow. It looked great in ZOOM mode. (The anamorphic widescreen purists are probably ready to lynch me at thist point ... ;))

Video Switcher? Are you using that for your component cables? I'm *one* component input too short on my receiver!! I'm concerned about the component cable on a video switcher box -- will it perserve the PQ?

Cheers

[morgan_chiu]

Originally posted by R Harkness Except sometimes I'll put it into "ZOOM" for cable channels. Then I reduce horizontal and vertical size. Since ZOOM doesn't geometrically distort the image, you can get a nice, sharp screen-filling 16:9 image out of NTSC signals by reducing overscan like this. [/B]

Since I still watch a lot of sat. programming via my DTiVo, I should fix overscan in zoom aspect ratio?

[rbienstock]

I tried this last night with my TH-42PH6DUY with limited success. I ran into two serious problems:

1. After I set the overscan exactly as instructed here using the composite input, when I watched actual programming it seemed that the geometry was wrong: I put on a anamorphic DVD and everything seemed squashed in the vertical dimension using Full mode. It wasn't as bad as watching a 4:3 image in full, but it was definitely wrong -- too much horizontal stretch. Is there a way to check the geometry to be sure that it is right? I used various screens on Avia, and they looked more or less ok, but that is just by eyeballing. Is there a way to more precisely check the geometry?

2. When I checked the s-video input, it was almost impossible to do the test because my DVD player (Pioneer 563a) seems to cut off part of the image on the left hand side. In other words, if I adjust horiz and vert size to the minimum setting so that the image is moved in from the screen edge, the edge of the diamond on the Avia overscan pattern meets the edge of the visible image on the top, bottom and right sides, while a substantial portion of the diamond is cut off on the left side. This doesn't sound normal to me.

Any ideas?

[cybersoga]

Adjusting it so you can see equal amounts of the picture on each edge is not enough. When adjusting overscan, you have to make sure the aspect ratio is correct, I suggest using Digital Video Essensials and putting a CD or DVD upto the screen to make sure the circles are round in the SMPTE RP-187 aspect ratio test patterns. Use the 4:3 pattern for adjusting 4:3 and zoom mode and 16:9 for adjusting 16:9 mode. Adjust the picture so you can see as much as possible but make sure it's centered and the aspect ratio is correct. If the dvd player is cropping lines, then you'll just have to compensate for it, and if it chops more off the left than the right you'll have to chop the same amount off both sides, and top/bottom to maintain aspect ratio - but the most important thing is to make sure the picture is centered and the aspect ratio is correct, even if this means cropping a few lines off.

[cheridave]

The correct Aspect Ratio to adjust Under/Over Scan on the Panasonic is "Full", for all other Plasmas it will be their equal to the Panasonic "Full".

VE has a Test Pattern for Wide Screen Plasmas (TV) to help you make the correct adjustments.

The Standard is 3-5% due to how various signals are broadcasters by the provider.

Dave

[cybersoga]

The overscan markers are fine but don't rely on them being exactly the same in each corner/side because the screen might not be perfectly 16:9, ie if the screen's a little wider than 16:9 then it should show a little more at the sides.

[cybersoga]

Here's a photo of my aspect ratio checker (trademark)

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/502/68538aspect_checker.jpg

[snbeall]

Wow, that is an excellent picture -- the hand looks so lifelike!

[cybersoga]

It's great isn't it - it just pops out the screen! very 3D, very lifelike :D

I don't like taking photo's of my plasma screen they rarely come out as the same as how it looks. The geometry looks wrong and there is moire in that photo due to me holding the camera, it's not a feature of my plasma! Those with laserdiscs or vynl hanging around and bigger screens might wanna use those instead!

[dmwierz]

Anyone know how to enter the service menu on the 37PD25U?

Thanks.

[dmwierz]

C'mon, SOMEBODY has to know how to enter the service mode on the 37" Commercial Panny EDTV.

A little help here?


Thanks

[btwyx]

Originally posted by dmwierz
C'mon, SOMEBODY has to know how to enter the service mode on the 37" Commercial Panny EDTV. Have you tried the way it used to work on the older models?

[dmwierz]

bt,

And how might that be? I've followed the instructions as per this posting, but it refers to the V-Posit being within the set-up menu, and it is NOT in my set-up menu. Color, Picture, Brightness, etc., but no Vertical or Horizontal.

Is there a decoder ring-like combo of buttons I need to push to get into the service mode?

Thanks,

Dennis

[BruZZi]

Originally posted by dmwierz
bt,

And how might that be? I've followed the instructions as per this posting, but it refers to the V-Posit being within the set-up menu, and it is NOT in my set-up menu. Color, Picture, Brightness, etc., but no Vertical or Horizontal.

Is there a decoder ring-like combo of buttons I need to push to get into the service mode?

Thanks,

Dennis

dmwierz,

The Consumer Models don't have the PICTURE SIZE/POSITION Control on the Setup Menu. You must go thru the Service Menu. I don't know much about the Service Menu for the Consumer Models so, you are on your own. :D



Set sleep timer to 30 minutes
Go to cable / antenna input and switch to channel 124
Turn volume all the way down with the remote
Press down volume button on the unit itself
CHK will appear in red in the top-left corner.
Press the power button on the remote control to get into the service menu
with "CHK" displayed.

Press power on the unit itself to exit the service menu
(turns off the unit but doesn't erase your user mode settings).

[dmwierz]

Bruzzi,

Thanks, but you knew that's where my post started, thus my question remains - how to enter the service mode on the consumer Panny EDTV's?

With this being the most popular board for HDTV on the Web, I gotta believe someone will stumble across my post and give me the secret.

Anywhere else I might go to ask the same question?

?????????

Dennis

[cheridave]

dmwierz,

I always recommend that people track down and purchase the "Service Manuals" for their model Plasma.

In almost all cases it will have the "codes" you are looking for.

Good luck.

Dave

[dmwierz]

Hey, Dave. Great idea! Where might I find this manual, Panasonic?

[BruZZi]

Originally posted by dmwierz
how to enter the service mode on the consumer Panny EDTV's?



Ok, I'll post it again. :D :D :D

Set sleep timer to 30 minutes
Go to cable / antenna input and switch to channel 124
Turn volume all the way down with the remote
Press down volume button on the unit itself
CHK will appear in red in the top-left corner.
Press the power button on the remote control to get into the service menu
with "CHK" displayed.

Press power on the unit itself to exit the service menu
(turns off the unit but doesn't erase your user mode settings).

[attweb]

Isn't there a service only slot on the 25Us? I figured it was for something similar to the CableCard to get into the service menu. True or False?

[dmwierz]

Bruzzi,

Oops, I thought you meant by;

>You must go thru the Service Menu. I don't know much about the Service Menu for the Consumer Models so, you are on your own. <

That your instructions were for not for the comsumer units.

I'll give this a try.

[BruZZi]

See the instructions for some CRT Models. It might be similar to the Plasma Service Menu.

http://www.calanan.com/panasonic/

[dmwierz]

Bruzzi, you rock, man! That did it. Using HDNet's overscan pattern, I could never get all the way to 4 on the horiz and 3 on the vert, though. Got to 6 on the horiz and 4 on the vert then ran out of adjustment. [COLOR=royalblue]Is this normal?
[/COLOR]

Went back to view program source, and had to make a couple minor adjustments on horiz width and position to get picture centered and filled out.

Thanks again. I wonder what all those other adjustments are...??? Could get a guy in trouble.

[BruZZi]

That's great dmwierz. :D :D :D

Never used a overscan pattern before so I don't know. :(

Did you read the link ??

I was just wondering if the Service Menu for Consumer Plasmas are similar to the TVs (Above link)

[dmwierz]

No. I'm on a Treo right now so following links is tough. Will wait til I get home.

Dennis

[WilliamG]

Thank you very much for this info. My consumer Panny ED was overscanning a huge amount, so I managed to go into the service menu as listed in this thread, and corrected completely the overscan. Excellent stuff.

[R Harkness]

Originally posted by WilliamG
Thank you very much for this info. My consumer Panny ED was overscanning a huge amount, so I managed to go into the service menu as listed in this thread, and corrected completely the overscan. Excellent stuff.

William, did you notice some of the picture improvements that some of us have talked about after reducing overscan?

[WilliamG]

Originally posted by R Harkness
William, did you notice some of the picture improvements that some of us have talked about after reducing overscan?

Well OK I think I lied to you guys. For some reason, even after calibrating, it's still not quite right. I had it calibrated with DVE. I just, for the heck of it, loaded up Monsters Inc as in the first post, and went to that exact picture, and found that I was probably missing around about 2 inches total off the end of the screen still. I was like 'what!?' I couldn't believe it. Any way, no amount of calibrating can fix it. I found out why. The DVD player itself (Panasonic XP30) has a mode where you can move the screen left and right. If I do that, I can see what I'm missing on either side (but not both at the same time, unfortunately, since there's no 'zoom out' mode). So that makes it the XP30's fault now. I can move the image on the service menu all the way in, but I still can't get both sides to show correctly on the DVD player. Unless there's something serious I'm missing, I'm going to not be able to calibrate this TV correctly for overscan. :(

[WilliamG]

I just plugged in my other DVD player, and it has the same problem. I don't get why all I can do is shrink the screen or move it left and right in the service menu, but I don't get ANY extra information on the sides at all. I can use the 'track left and right' option on my DVD player which shows me what I'm missing. I just can't get all that information on the screen :(



**UPDATE**

I just messed with it some more. I can get the left hand-side of the screen pretty much exactly as it is in that Monster's Inc example. However, the right hand side is not perfect. On the bottom right of that image, you can see the '8' just appearing. I can't see that at all. There's no possible calibration I can do to make that appear. Also, the first poster said he could get the '3' on the top left to appear. I can't do that, but that 3 isn't in your picture either. I wonder if some displays can correct overscan better than others?

[BIL]

Originally posted by rbienstock
1. After I set the overscan exactly as instructed here using the composite input, when I watched actual programming it seemed that the geometry was wrong: I put on a anamorphic DVD and everything seemed squashed in the vertical dimension using Full mode. It wasn't as bad as watching a 4:3 image in full, but it was definitely wrong -- too much horizontal stretch. Is there a way to check the geometry to be sure that it is right? I used various screens on Avia, and they looked more or less ok, but that is just by eyeballing. Is there a way to more precisely check the geometry? Any ideas?

When I was doing some service mode adjusts on my Sony 27" CRT, I displayed a test pattern with a perfect circle, and just held a ruler up to the screen then adjusted until it really was a perfect circle.

[lewlew]

WilliamG-

It seems that the plasma and the dvd players have sort of "gates" built into them and only "so much" signal is allowed to pass in or out at one time.

If you shrink you plasma overscan to show a couple of rows of pixels all the way around can you then move the image using the tracking business on the xp30 to show the "3" and the "8" that you refer to?

If you can show only one at a time the big issue would seem to be the dvd player as the plasma would be rescaling all that it received or was allowed to receive onto the smaller picture.

All you can really do with what you have is trim the overscan on the plasma and center the picture.

Lew

[Joxer]

I suggest using an AVIA DVD's overscan test pattern to accurately center and measure the amount of overscan on each edge. Factory setting is usually about 5% on each edge.

[WilliamG]

Originally posted by lewlew
WilliamG-

It seems that the plasma and the dvd players have sort of "gates" built into them and only "so much" signal is allowed to pass in or out at one time.

If you shrink you plasma overscan to show a couple of rows of pixels all the way around can you then move the image using the tracking business on the xp30 to show the "3" and the "8" that you refer to?

If you can show only one at a time the big issue would seem to be the dvd player as the plasma would be rescaling all that it received or was allowed to receive onto the smaller picture.

All you can really do with what you have is trim the overscan on the plasma and center the picture.

Lew


When I shrink the overscan on the plasma, and then 'track' left and right on the XP30, it just shifts one side of the image 'off' and the other side 'on'. I don't see how this is the DVD player since my other DVD player (a Sampo player) does the same thing.

[JLaamanen]

Hi guys,

Sorry I wondered off the Rear Projector forum after a year of "shopping" for DLP or something.

Assuming HT:

How might this correspond to the 1:1 pixel mapping that seems to be good for DVI (HMDI) or othe 720p type of input?

Perhaps for many sources this would not be important, but could it be for HTPC when you use it as a monitor?

I think some HT PDPs use a little over 1280 x 720 pixels, and could expanding 720p (or 1280 x 720) lead to less than the sharpest possible display?

John

[R Harkness]

William,

I can't figure out your problem. If I have you right, you have access to picture resizing controls on the plasma - to reduce vertical and horizontal size. Apparently you can do this until you see the edges of the DVD image.
However, you mean that even when you see the edges of the DVD image on your Panny, it is still missing information "off screen" that you know is there. Is that correct?

So, say you've squeezed your horizontal and vertical image size down such that the whole image is surrounded by some unused, or "black" pixels all around it.

Now, when you use your DVD player's picture control, shifting the image to the left, what happens? Does the left side picture information start disappearing into the unused pixels - in other words the black vertical band of unused pixels remains unused even when you slide the picture that way - or does it shift the image into the unused pixels area on the left, making them active?

It's a stab in the dark, but you might try turning off your DVD player's progressive scan and sending the signal interlaced. It's possible your TV is set to lock onto a 480p signal such that it negates even some re-sizing control of the image.

[WilliamG]

William,

I can't figure out your problem. If I have you right, you have access to picture resizing controls on the plasma - to reduce vertical and horizontal size. Apparently you can do this until you see the edges of the DVD image.
However, you mean that even when you see the edges of the DVD image on your Panny, it is still missing information "off screen" that you know is there. Is that correct?

Yes

So, say you've squeezed your horizontal and vertical image size down such that the whole image is surrounded by some unused, or "black" pixels all around it.

I did that, yes....

Now, when you use your DVD player's picture control, shifting the image to the left, what happens? Does the left side picture information start disappearing into the unused pixels - in other words the black vertical band of unused pixels remains unused even when you slide the picture that way - or does it shift the image into the unused pixels area on the left, making them active?

The unused pixels remain inactive, and the image disappears :(


It's a stab in the dark, but you might try turning off your DVD player's progressive scan and sending the signal interlaced. It's possible your TV is set to lock onto a 480p signal such that it negates even some re-sizing control of the image.

I did that, and it makes no difference. Of course the resizing for 480i is different than for 480p (separate settings), but I still can't get all the information on the screen. :(

[R Harkness]

Originally posted by WilliamG
[B]
I did that, and it makes no difference. Of course the resizing for 480i is different than for 480p (separate settings), but I still can't get all the information on the screen. :(

Bummer.

My 4UY plasma remembers overscan adjustment per input and per signal type. In other words, I can have separate overscan adjustments for either 480i or 480p. Switching between interlaced and progressive scan switches between the two picture size adjustment settings.

That makes it easy to A/B the difference between the image pre and post overscan. If I leave the 480i image without reduction, and get rid of overscan when my player is outputting 480p, simply switching progressive scan on and off switches between the image with overscan (480i) and with no overscan (480p).

That's one other reason I thought turning off your progressive scan from your player might have worked, as the Panny plasmas seem to really treat each signal type distinctly.

Oh well. If I come up with any other ideas I'll let you know.

(I have certainly seen more than a few commercial TVs, including plasmas, that do not let you access picture size reduction. Only picture aspect controls and if you are lucky picture horizontal/vertical positioning).

[WilliamG]

I think we misunderstand each other. I do have separate settings for 480i 480p. and 1080i. I can do the compare etc etc between the 3 should I choose...Messing with the 480i overscan is a separate 'mess' than with 480p. I can switch between them and see the difference.

I just don't understand why the image can never fully exist on my Plasma. Now we are talking about maybe .5 of an inch, but now I know it's SUPPOSED to be there, it bugs the crap outa me. :D

[lewlew]

WilliamG-

When you "move" the picture left or right do you see video noise at the trailing edge or do you run out of adjustment first?

I think we are back to the "gates" issue again. I believe the dvd player(s) are not letting the total amount of video data pass. This may be designed into them to prevent video noise or other crap from passing through that might be on the edges of the picture and then show-up on screens with little to no overscan.

One thing you don't know is how much of the picture is actually missing top and bottom as you don't seem to have this "tracking" ability on the player.

All dvd(s) are not manufactured the same. The player manufacturers probably have to allow for this tolerance. It would be nice to have this adjustable on the player similiar to the over/under scan on the plasma.

Lew

[WilliamG]

I don't see any 'trailing' image. I do know that I'm not missing anything on the top or bottom, since my laptop plays the DVDs and shows ALL the data (I can even see where the image ends on both sides, before my screen physically ends). I compared the plasma and my laptop and there's nothing missing top and bottom after calibration. It really is a small amount I'm missing on the plasma, but it does frustrate me that others were able to get it to work, albeit with different plasmas. I'd like someone to see if they have the same results with a PD25UP that I have.

[WilliamG]

Now I have another problem. Ugh!

I just started watching Aladdin, and in the 3rd chapter my wife pointed out 'hey the ladder looks bent! What the heck?' (scene where Aladdin and Abu climb ladder together.

Sure enough, she was right. I paused and backed up, and the WHOLE TOP inch or so of the plasma is kind of bending to the left. Here's a crude diagram:


\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
|
|
|
|
|__________________|

So if you see what I mean, the image is basically 'slanting' at the top. I found out that it ONLY does this in 480p mode, and my other DVD player does the same thing in 480p, except it slants to the right! What the hell is going on? Is my TV just crap or what? This is the 42PDUP Consumer Panny ED we're talking about here. Can you adjust pincushion etc on this set? I'm so mad!!! It ruined my enjoyment of DVDs now :(

[LKM466]

I got into the service menu and wrote down the original settings (the V- and H-Pos, etc.) before playing around with the settings. I ended up messed up with image geometry even when re-instating the original settings/numbers. I found the distorted geometry after re-running the Sound & Vision Audio/Video tuning DVD disc. Luckily, I can exchange the plasma because it's only 10 days from delivery and BB easily swaps one for me tonight (to be delivered this coming Friday).

What have I learned? Unless you know what all those numbers/settings mean in the service menu or got a copy of the service manual ready, take it from me -- DO NOT MESS AROUND with those settings!!!

I will NEVER enter that service menu again, unless/untill I can get a hold of the manual learning what the numbers of each setting mean!

[WilliamG]

Originally posted by LKM466
I got into the service menu and wrote down the original settings (the V- and H-Pos, etc.) before playing around with the settings. I ended up messed up with image geometry even when re-instating the original settings/numbers. I found the distorted geometry after re-running the Sound & Vision Audio/Video tuning DVD disc. Luckily, I can exchange the plasma because it's only 10 days from delivery and BB easily swaps one for me tonight (to be delivered this coming Friday).


What have I learned? Unless you know what all those numbers/settings mean in the service menu or got a copy of the service manual ready, take it from me -- DO NOT MESS AROUND with those settings!!!

I will NEVER enter that service menu again, unless/untill I can get a hold of the manual learning what the numbers of each setting mean!

I only changed the Horizontal and vertical positions. Nothing else. I don't even know HOW to get into the geometry service settings. :( The only things I can see to change are horizontal and vertical position and size/stretch. Nothing else.

Also, this is not something I noticed straight away as I had been watching only 2:35:1 ratio movies, so the black bars hid the geometry problem. I also know that this is NOT user error since I calibrated 480i the same way, and 480i has NO geometry issues at the top of the screen.

I can 'fix' the 480p 'slant' problem by just overscanning an inch at the top of the screen, but that BUGS me to no end..

Anyone got any ideas?

[Joxer]

Check with a geometry test pattern from an AVIA or DVE DVD. Could be distorted video from the DVD player.

[WilliamG]

Originally posted by Joxer
Check with a geometry test pattern from an AVIA or DVE DVD. Could be distorted video from the DVD player.

But then why would TWO DVD players exhibit this...

My Pansonic XP30, and my Sampo multiregion player both do this, but not in 480i, only 480p. .

[Joxer]

Only in 480p mode - very interesting?

[WilliamG]

Anyone else got any ideas?

Ok this is really weird. My XBOX and Gamecube running in 480p don't exhibit this problem. However, my 2 DVD players, Panny XP30, and Sampo 841P both have this problem in 480p. I just don't get it at all....

[MAB]

I am having an over-scan problem with VOOM and the Pioneer PRO1000HD through component at 1080i. How do I correct this?

The PRO is the same as the 503cmx.

[robnalex]

Originally posted by _Michaelangelo_
After you make one adjustment to the V-Pos, make one adjustment to the V-Size. You will be alternating setting one then the other. Repeat until one last adjustment of the V-Size hides the White Overscan at the top and bottom. This doesn't make sense to me. Why would I make an adjustment to the V-Pos every time I adjust V-Size?

[_Michaelangelo_]

Originally posted by robnalex
This doesn't make sense to me. Why would I make an adjustment to the V-Pos every time I adjust V-Size?

To keep the image (properly) centered.

Peace

[robnalex]

Well, of course...I get that part. But why would every adjustment of V-Size necessarily affect V-Pos? Forgive me if I'm being retarded, but I read your post to mean that every adjustment of Size requires an adjustment of position, and I don't see how that would necessarily be the case.

[_Michaelangelo_]

Originally posted by robnalex
Well, of course...I get that part. But why would every adjustment of V-Size necessarily affect V-Pos? Forgive me if I'm being retarded, but I read your post to mean that every adjustment of Size requires an adjustment of position, and I don't see how that would necessarily be the case.

No prob Rob... let me explain.

If the image was centered, then yes, naturally one would think, that increasing the size +1 would increase both the top and bottom coverage evenly. The problem is this assumes what we're trying to accomplish!

Unfortunately when you enlarge the picture, the plasma doesn't scale up the top and bottom evenly, since the the image is uncentered. i.e. it doesn't keep the same distance on the top and bottom.

Maybe this picture (poor ASCII art) will help...


____ <- physical top limit
.... <blank line 1>
.... <blank line 2>
+--+ <- "Logical top"
| |
+--+ <- "Logical bottom"
.... <blank line 3>
____ <- physical bottom


Now if we increase the vertical size proportionaly, we get this...


____ <- physical top limit
.... <blank line 1>
+--+ <- "Logical top"
| |
| |
| |
+--+ <- "Logical bottom"
____ <- physical bottom


It is easiest to see this when you have 1 line of white overscan showing on the top, and 1 line at the bottom.

My work around was to enlarge the image, and then use the v-pos as an extra fine tuning step as virtual "positioning" to dial in the overscan.

Hope this helps.

Peace

[robnalex]

Yep...I get it. Thank you.

I am trying to reduce the considerable amount of overscan that exists with the default settings on my panny 50PHD6UY for the input from my HD DirecTiVo hr10-250 set to 1080i. Here's what I've done:

Using a HD still image from a local news station that broadcasts in true HD, I adjusted V-size and H-size as described above while adjusting position for both to keep the image as perfectly centered as possible until the image completely filled the screen with zero overscan. I then added about 5 adjustment clicks of overscan to both the V & H size to eliminate the additional signal stuff that could be seen at the top when viewing 4:3 images.

It looks good, but I still can't help but wonder how correct the geometry is after doing this, and for that matter, how correct it is with the default settings.

[radamo]

I was looking to optimize my SD picture on my 42pwd8uk. Am I able to make over/under scan adjustments while in "just" mode? If not, how would I address this issue best. Sorry if it has been stated I must have missed it...
Thanks,
RA

[stripe]

[QUOTE=radamo]I was looking to optimize my SD picture on my 42pwd8uk. Am I able to make over/under scan adjustments while in "just" mode? If not, how would I address this issue best. Sorry if it has been stated I must have missed it...
Thanks,
RA[/QUOTE]

Make the adjustements in full mode. Once adjusted, you'll be able to use the Just mode and it will also use the adjusted values you set in the full mode (but will still use its special stretching method). Doing overscan adjustments in the Just mode is not really recommended.

[radamo]

[QUOTE=stripe]Make the adjustements in full mode. Once adjusted, you'll be able to use the Just mode and it will also use the adjusted values you set in the full mode (but will still use its special stretching method). Doing overscan adjustments in the Just mode is not really recommended.[/QUOTE]

Thanks...
RA

[IamAnoobieCheez]

MichaelAngelo quoted,
Calibration:

1. Display an image with a white border.

The Avia Home Theater DVD: Advanced Video Test Patterns, Special, Overscan, is the perfect calibration image. (Sorry, don't know the corresponding Sound & Vision calibration image. Anyone? Beuller?)

Note: You could also use The Matrix (on Zoom mode) if you don't have Avia. It is not accurate, but it's better then nothing -- at least you will be in the ballpark.
Could somebody explain the true defintion/meaning of "Avia Home Theater DVD"? Is it an object? i.e. a hardware device that does something. Or is it "software" that you download or is it in a CD? Or is it built in to the TV??? if so, WHAT TV???? I need full explanation to this..... What's this Avia people keep talking about.


And of course...... the ultimate question would be "how" to get it.





[QUOTE=cybersoga]Here's a photo of my aspect ratio checker (trademark)

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/502/68538aspect_checker.jpg[/QUOTE]
Once again, where/how do you get it. Is it a software or hardware. I need full explanation on this one too if you would... Thank you. ;) :p

[btwyx]

I thought the "DVD" part of that was a dead give away, its a DVD. (That is media with content.) You can buy it from the usual places you buy DVDs or from the developers at http://ovationsw.com