DENON DVD3800 Factory Refurbished

[andr3wpd]

Yes, zoro it is a refurb unit. I am pretty sure I experienced the freezing/skipping issue but don't particularly want to send it in to Denon and entrust the player with UPS.

[pnichols]

kevinca1,

".......but if you heard and saw the 5900 you would see how much they can improve."

At the 5900's increased price over the 3800 and considering the 5900's increased chassis weight over the 3800 and accepting Denon's audio reputation, the 5900 probably indeed puts out superior audio, SACD notwithstanding.

However WRT video, the only thing I see in the 5900's spec that might change it's progressive video over the 3800 is it's 8X over-sampling as compared to the 3800's 4X over-sampling - which will probably require a huge screen with a 5900 to notice the video noise difference, Faroudja deinterlacing notwithstanding. Both players are using ESS decoders. I suspect the 5900's video bandwidth is about flat, where the 3800's is slighly "up" - which I may (still thinking about) prefer. Please remember that it's possible to remove the 3800's Y/C Delay - which left as is in a 3800 will definitely give the 5900 a subtle edge in fine color detail and color edge sharpness.

As a side note, when comparing 5900 specs to 9000 specs, notice that the 9000 has 14-bit 108MHz VDAC's, while the 5900 employs 12-bit 216MHz VDAC's. So ........ in designing the 5900 Denon opted for higher NSV over-sampling over the higher video bit depth of the 9000. I suspect that 14-bit 216MHz VDAC's are just around the corner as a last analog gasp before DVI, plasma, 3-chip DLP, LCOS, SXRD, etc., take over the planet.

It'll really be interesting to see what Denon loads up their upcoming new flagship player with. (Hopefully as a minimum, DVI with all the image and picture control of high end analog video!) ;)

[Geff33]

My refurbished 3800 just arrived from Ecost today. They only one boxed it! Anyway this unit is heavy and build like a tank. The unit looks new...manufactured September 2002. I set it on my Sony 34XBR800..did some adjustment on the blacks (from the player), run basic AVIA video tweaks, and played a couple of DVDs (Gladiator and LOTR). I am very impress on the PQ . Beats my Panasonic RP91 , Lite-On 2100 and even the Bravo D1 which is connected on the DVI input of the TV. Will check it on my FP projector as soon as I have the time. I am very glad I took the chance and made the purchase. It is early to see if there are any problems with the unit but I purchased a 2 year warranty just in case.

[cobiker]

OK Guys, I'm new to this forum and have to say you've got me to the point that I'm seriously considering buying the Denon 3800. Current availability at ecost seems to be questionable but Dakmart has supply, $590, which is $150 more than ecost, in exchange for a 1yr warranty vs the 90 days. Does anyone know if the warranty for the period that they claim is provided from Denon direct or is it a third party provider?

But in looking at what Dakmart had available, I came accros the Denon DVD-2800MK2. Dakmart wanting $420 with a 1 yr warranty. I curious if anyone has had any experience with this player? Feature/functions seem to be close to the 3800 but at a slight less price tag.

Note that all prices are for b-stock or refurb units, but does it really matter if you get a 1 year warranty. What is the normal warranty on the 3800? I want to say 5 years? Could that be possible?

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

[heavymetal3001]

Hi again guys. After some problems I got my 3800 back from Denon Canada. It now in fact does have the optical assembly from the 9000. They even went so far as to list it on my invoice........but.......it's on it's way back to Denon. Unit plays DVD's perfectly with a picture that rivals my Sony 9000ES. Reason it's going back......still freezing. It does not freeze when the disc is playing but it freezes when you are trying to navigate through the menu of the DVD or do anything in the way of fast forwarding or searching. For some reason I think the firmware upgrade didn't take. The problem seems like something software related versus hardware. When I get it back again I will provide a complete list of what was done. Some of the things that have been done already that I know of are the following:

Optical assembly was replaced and the one from the 9000 was used.
Tray / Loading assembly and chassis was replaced.
Main board was replaced. (This one I did not see coming)

[heavymetal3001]

Originally posted by Kensmith48
HeavyMetal3001,
Did you get your 3800 back yet? I'd like to hear the results. I sent mine in for the new laser and I already had the chroma bug fix done thru Denon Jeff. It still occassionally freezes/skips and the dvd's are still hot. I'm interested in getting this done but I'd like to hear the results first.
TIA
Ken

Hi there. See my post above. I got it back but it's going back.

[ZICK]

heavymedal
Read my 11/9 post. I got mine returned 11/14 and they replaced the transverse unit. That my be your proplem.

[Michael_V]

Sent my 3800 back to the factory on September 25 and still waiting. . . . :(

[andr3wpd]

What is the general turn around time when sending in one of the refurb 3800's that skips? I thought I could live with it but it is getting worse.

Andrew

[pixelman]

My turn around time was a matter of two weeks -- sent the 3800 off for a 2900. Haven't missed the 3800 a bit!

[daddy_guy]

Two weeks should be about right if you are close to one of the repair shops.....my wait was exactly 2 weeks when sent to the Southern Calif. repair center........I guess a lot hinges on what kind of repairs are done....and the availability of the parts........
Too bad postage isn't included for the return.....but still, not too bad of an experience overall...especially when compared to some other repairs I have had done over the years with other manufacturers......
Denon seems like a great company, one that really takes care of its customers.....
The 3800 just keeps getting better and better every day.........glad I got in on the deal before it was too late.......:D :D
Hope you have your player back soon, Michael_V.....what a long wait for something built almost in your own backyard....!!

[Michael_V]

Two weeks turnaround would have been lovely, but I have been waiting FOUR MONTHS now.

As I wrote months ago, my 3800 showed the same freeze-ups everyone else's did, so I sent it back to the Denon factory in California for service. That was in September. Now it is January.

About two weeks ago, I called Denon to inquire just where exactly my DVD player was. I was curtly told they never received it!

My heart in my stomach, I started my insurance claim paperwork with the post office and called Denon back to ask for a signed letter saying they never received the unit. I guess that got their attention because the next morning Denon left a message on my machine saying they *had* received the player and signed for it months ago but COULDN'T FIND IT!

FANTASTIC! And if I hadn't called and made postal investigation noises at them, no one would even have LOOKED for my player! INCREDIBLE!

Anyway, now I am waiting to hear how exactly Denon intends to compensate me for the last four months I have been without a DVD player secondary to their gross mishandling of my $1200 player. If they intend to simply return my serviced / potentially still unserviced 3800 to me and call it even, though, they are in for a huge disappointment.

Not very impressed with Denon right now.

I will keep all posted.

[Todd Schnell]

Michael, very sorry to hear that happen to you. I sent my 3800 (by UPS) in to Denon NJ a few weeks. Tracking shows it arrived, but now I feel the need to give them a call. I hope things turn out well for you.

Todd

[daddy_guy]

I wonder if you can get any more 3800s ( mine is still working like a champ, a beautiful monster, etc, etc......), but if not maybe you could settle for a 5900 ( that would just be terrible!#!!......but acceptable....).....
at this point, with the MAJOR inconvenience, it would certainly be fair to step up to the 5900, if Denon wants a happy, repeat customer. I would think about getting DenonJeff involved......this is truly ridiculous...and I would really be P.O.ed.........so to speak.......
I'm sure they could get their hands on a 3800........................and I'm sure you can even come out ahead on this screw-up.......definitely!
This could (and will) turn out to be OK.........better than OK...
Just alot of grief thrown in...........
But remember, Denon does make the best DVD players, so try to stick with Denon. They will end up helping you...especially with a few choice, "threatening" words thrown in.......
You gotta let us know what happens.........
We should all write DenonJeff on this one.............
SERIOUSLY!!!!!!:confused:

[opers13]

I just called Denon NJ, my 3800 is waiting on a part....part # 9KC28074B

Does anyone know what part that is??

Alex

[Snakehunter]

I'm new to the forum and to Home Theater in general and just discovered the whole laser pickup issue with my 3800, hence explaining why I've been having the freeze up issues recently. The problem is I'm 2 months past warranty and when I contacted Denon, they basically told me I was screwed. They said I could send it in for repair to them, but they could not provide me with any cost estimate. Now, my 3800 is acting up even more as the disc tray closes on it's own 1 to 2 seconds after it's opened. I'm extremely disappointed..........

[Brian Hampton]

Snake,

They said you could send it in but didn't give you an estimate, right. I would send it in. It's junk if it's not fixed and who knows maybe they would fix it under some type of extended warranty.

I had a broken CD player a long time ago and took it to a local shop. After a day they called me back and told me it wasn't worth fixing. Well, I picked it up and some time later try-ed it (thinking maybe I could maybe tinker with it) and it had been fixed! They didn't bother to tell me that they fixed it for free.

-Brian

[srp]

Originally posted by Snakehunter
Now, my 3800 is acting up even more as the disc tray closes on it's own 1 to 2 seconds after it's opened. I'm extremely disappointed..........

Mine started doing that tray closing thing awhile ago too. What I found was, if while open, you pull the tray gently outward, it moves out another fraction of an inch, and will then stay open fine. It will even work normally for a few more open/close iterations. Eventually, it will start closing on it's own again after a few seconds.

Apparently, it's not opening far enough to get past the sensor used for closing the unit if you push the tray in.

Mine is long past warranty too, so I'll live with this one unless I feel brave enough some day to crack the case and see if there is any mechanical adjustment that can be done to correct it.

-Steve

[daddy_guy]

I would not give up too easily........I would try to contact repair in both Calif. and New Jersey, or one of their "Super Service Centers"....someone has to be more helpful :confused:than what you have gotten so far...... DenonJeff helped me quite a bit when I needed it, and he is also worth a try.
It is a machine certainly worth fixing, because I still believe it is one of the best players out there, jam packed with quality parts......no matter what the price. Not too many players are better than the 3800 .............and hopefully it won't be too expensive to fix............
I'm beginning to wonder if there are still some happy owners out there, with not too many problems............
I feel lucky the more I read this stuff........my player just seems to keeps gettin' better every day..( or is it the DVDs...)
But,
I still believe Denon will help you, with a little persuasion.
Get tough!!!! (but in a nice way.......better service that way for sure!):)

[Todd Schnell]

I spoke to Denon NJ & they (the receptionist ?) put me on hold & stated that after talking to the tech they were trying to get my player shipped back to me this week. I asked to speak to the tech, but she said he would have to call me back.

Problems I was having:
No progressive scan output
Skipping freezing (laser problem)
Tray closing thing

I also asked for:
the Y/C delay fix
cropping & image shift (don't know if this is fixable though)

I will follow-up here when I have more info.

opers13
What problems where you having?
When did you send the unit in?
Sorry if I missed this, but after searching the thread I didn't find the answers.

T

[mrpergo]

All this talk has me afraid to send mine in.I have had the tray thing since I got it in Nov.I do have an some pausing every now and again so I thought I would send it in and have that stuff fixed and also have the y/c delay fix while I am under warranty.I was thinking after the holidays that the turn around time would be quick.I'll think I'll wait another week and then call N.J. and get the ball rolling.
I read that the special guest thread is being closed so I don't know if you can post for Denon Jeff anymore.Any info on that?:confused:

[KidDoc]

I hope to be one of the lucky ones.
I found a 3800 brand new in box at my local Tweeter affiliate.
Sept build date but serial#209........
I do have a one year full factory warr, and paid the same as ecost refurb, as the unit is discontinued.
They are out there, just look.

KidDoc

[opers13]

Todd Schnell

I sent out my 3800 to NJ almost 2 months ago. I was having the same freeze-ups everyone else's did (lot's of them).....also the unit would not play some DVDs at all....it would say "DISC LOADING" and that's it.

opers13

[srp]

I sent my 3800 into the CA repair center for the laser replacement back in May, '03. At that time, it took exactly 3 weeks from the time I sent it until it came back. I'm surprised it's taking so much longer these days for people to get this done.

Don't get me wrong, I luv my unit, even with it's little quirks. It throws out an amazing picture. I'm not bothered enough by the tray closing problem tho to go thru the trouble to send it back in again. Same deal with the Y/C delay.

Besides, I'd rather save what it might cost to fix these things and put it towards a new 5900. :D

-Steve

[Michael_V]

Thanks for the moral support, guys!

Daddy_guy, I agree that substantial compensation is in order and will push for that. This is a major screw up on their part and a major inconvenience for me. Can you imagine being without your BRAND NEW 3800 for FOUR MONTHS?! It's crazy.

More as I get it.

[Nathan_R]

Somewhat related, I purchased the DVM-4800 from eCost at the same time most of you purchased your 3800s.

It has been in my possession for a total of 5 days since September 5th. The rest of the time, it has been either in transit to/from Denon NJ or on the service center bench. I finally received my now fully functional unit yesterday.

While I don't think I'll ever purchase another Denon unit, I am pleased that they stand behind their factory warranties on refurbished units. My POC was Christina B., who deserves high kudos for her communication, patience, and professionalism.

[Todd Schnell]

opers13

Hmm I wonder what that part (# 9KC28074B) is indeed. If it is the laser, then I can't help but wonder why they would not tell me the same. Unless they expected em in this week. Of course the part could be something else. I just hope they fix everything right the first time. I don't want to spend another $25 or so shipping this thing back again. Anyway just pondering here, missing my 3800 already. This unit put out a sweet picture in interlaced mode, & I can't wait to see it in progressive scan.
Missing the DVD-A too.

T

[Todd Schnell]

Update:

I just received a call from Denon's Tech department. Was told the laser is out of stock, expected in 2 weeks. Tech said he could not get my unit to skip. I told him the fact is the unit skips on DVD & even DVD-A randomly. It is a known problem. He said he would go ahead & replace the laser.

Also the part needed to fix the progressive scan output, & part to fix Y/C delay are out as well. This sux!
I mentioned the tray closing thing & he said he hadn't noticed it, but will check the sensor.

The other thing I told him is this unit was sold as a refurb & marketed as fully checked out before selling. Then why didn't it output in progressive scan out of the box? Disappointing.

I am starting to regret purchasing this player. How long will I have to wait before I get it back? Then I just hope it works as it should when I do get it back. I also own a 5803 & have been very happy with it. How things go with the service to the 3800 will determine whether or not I purchase anything from Denon in the future. Hopefully my concerns will be laid to rest soon.

T

[Michael_V]

How things go with the service to the 3800 will determine whether or not I purchase anything from Denon in the future.

My sentiments exactly. This was my first Denon product, and how they respond to this fiasco with my player will determine my purchasing pattern in the future. Unless they come through in a big way (read: 5900), they will never see another cent of mine or anyone I am advising.

[zoro]

why in the world, even refurbished denon r not free of trouble?

[pnichols]

Todd,

Just a bit of trivia to perhaps help you continue to appreciate your ownership of a potentially superb round disc playing machine: Are you aware that the audio DAC's in your 3800 are the SAME ones as used in your 5803?

[Michael_V]

Great. Superb technology supported by a company that sends out "serviced" units without correcting known problems, loses other players, and returns neither phone calls, emails, or PMs. I'm ecstatic.

Forgive me, but right now, Denon is the devil.

[Todd Schnell]

zoro
why in the world, even refurbished denon r not free of trouble?

That is indeed a good question. On the positive side I purchased a 5803 shortly after they hit the market & it has performed flawlessly out of the box. A very impressive piece! Or were you just referring to their DVD players?

pnichols
Yes so I read. That is impressive. However I also own a Sony 555ES SACD player which to my ears beats the 3800 & 5803 on red-book cds. Not by much however. Honestly though I still wish to do some more comparisons when I get my 3800 back.

Michael_V
I stood up for Denon in the past, but this is quite disappointing! Did they send these units out knowing they had problems? Or just really didn't check them out? Did they know the parts to fix them would be hard to come by? Was it a matter of getting rid of them for the $$$ & worry about the repairs later? All speculation on my part, but these are the type of questions running through my head.

Todd

[zoro]

My disappointment continues with denon, even their MADE IN JAPAN stuff is NOT FREE OF TROUBLE? I guess 3800, is JAPANESE?

[Furious]

Michael_V
I stood up for Denon in the past, but this is quite disappointing! Did they send these units out knowing they had problems? Or just really didn't check them out? Did they know the parts to fix them would be hard to come by? Was it a matter of getting rid of them for the $$$ & worry about the repairs later? All speculation on my part, but these are the type of questions running through my head.

Todd [/B]

They fix the problem that was the intial reason for return, nothing more. Refurbished goods are not tested extensively by manufacturers. They are quickly tested to see if the original fault has been fixed. That's one reason why we don't carry refurbs, regardless of manufacturer. It's hardly a problem unique to Denon. That said they certainly shouldn't have lost your player.

And yes, even Denons made in JAPAN HAVE PROBLEMS. U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-A-B-L-E! Even more shocking, Panasonic players made in Japan had a high rate of transport failure! I'm only going to buy players made on Mars now.

[Todd Schnell]

Furious

I do not doubt what your saying, but the way I see it is if my unit wasn't fully tested then it should not have been advertised as such including a stamp on the box. This is misleading.
Btw it wasn't my 3800 that got lost.

T

[wine4et]

I bought a 3800 over the weekend from my local Goodguys store. they had an open box 3800 which was a demo unit. they sold it for 250 if I bought a 3 year waranty for 95. I took it. I hope I did ok.

Eric

[Michael_V]

Well, I finally got to talk to someone today. Sylvester (who was rude and unhelpful) and Randy, who seemed like a nice guy and did offer some assistance. No word yet on what will be done, though. He is supposed to call me back on Tuesday. Here is hoping Denon will do the right thing and recover from this potentially very bad situation in a way that restores customer confidence. I will keep you posted.

[Kensmith48]

HeavyMetel3001,
It's been about 2 months since you said your player was going back for the 2nd time. Did you get it back yet? I'm wondering how it turned out since I'm thinking of sending mine in. I sent mine in for the laser replacement but the picture still isn't up to par.

[Michael_V]

One disturbing tidbit that came out of my conversation with Randy yesterday was that he said their factory loses DVD players "all the time." He even chuckled when he said it. Not sure if he thought that comment would make me feel better about them losing mine, but it had the opposite effect.

The way I see it:

(1) I invested my money in their product with an expectation of quality
(2) Their product was flawed, in design or material, so I had to send it back to them for repair, at my own expense.
(3) Add to the initial cost of the player, the shipping I had to pay, and the opportunity cost I incurred (i.e. no DVD player for four months and counting)

So I invested my initial purchase price + shipping + lost opportunity into the Denon Corporation. This is a not insubstantial amount I have entrusted to them. But. . .

(4) They are so careless with this investment and trust that they lose my player or allow it to be stolen.

And I am supposed to feel better because they have a pattern of doing this more frequently than I might have imagined?!

And unbelievably, the overwhelming response I have received so far from Denon is not apology but frank indifference. So we lost your player! Big deal! Happens all the time! We have plenty of other customers! Who cares about you!

Unless a quick recovery is made on their end, I can't imagine why anyone would invest their hard earned cash in this company's products.

[Kensmith48]

Seems like the norm for today's practices. Maybe they make these units so cheap they just don't care.
After buying their 3800 dvd player and a Zenith 1080 stb I'm getting fed up with these junk units on the market. Do they even have QC or just use the public for guinea pigs? I know that in the future I won't be waiting around for promised fixes & updates etc. If I buy a piece of crap it's going back for a cash refund the same week. Money is the only thing these corporations understand.
Just my .02

[pnichols]

Todd,

Are you sure that the part number you mention, # 9KC28074B, isn't really # 9KC2A074B? #9KC2A074B is the "big one" for the 3800. According to this Denon parts/service dealer:

www.pacparts.com/scripts/PartDetail.cfm?part_num=9KC2A074A&part_desc=TRAVERSE%20UNIT%20W%2FLASER%20%26%20SLED%2DDISC%20MOTORS&manuf_name=DENON&CFID=290530&CFTOKEN=29299903

this part is the "TRAVERSE UNIT W/LASER & SLED-DISC MOTORS", which could be the main laser assembly and, including perhaps (my guess), the disc tray mechanism.

The laser assembly the 3800's originally came with was # 9KC2A074A, so I'm wondering if # 9KC2A074B doesn't solve both the skipping/pausing problem and the "disc tray that won't stay out" problem?

My 1 1/2 year old 3800 momentarily paused for only the second time in 1 1/2 years last night on Star Trek III. It was very predictable and would always start these momentary pauses at the same spot, about 2/3 of the way through, and these short pauses would continue to the end of the movie and would never not do it..... even this morning when the player was cold it begun doing it at the same spot on this movie. It didn't do it on a couple of other movies last night I tried right after Star Trek III. The other pause problem I had was 1 year ago when my 3800 did a hard hang up on Criterion's "The Rock" and would never go past a certain spot in the movie no matter what I did. I returned the movie and never tried another copy - I wish I would of.

I wonder if the predictable and repeatable pausing I am getting on Star Trek III is what others are seeing in their 3800's or just a bad DVD copy? If it's a bad DVD copy, I wonder if I should have this laser/tray assembly replaced just in case? I have a 5 year warrantly so my cost would be minimum. My tray also started a couple of months ago staying out - maybe every 10th activation of the tray. Otherwise my 3800 has been playing everything I throw at it without a hitch, even scratched DVD's. Maybe this is about to change, however. (I have the 194th production 3800 Denon built.)

Otherwise, as you know, the PQ is spectacular on movie after movie.

[Todd Schnell]

Are you sure that the part number you mention, # 9KC28074B, isn't really # 9KC2A074B? #9KC2A074B is the "big one" for the 3800. According to this Denon parts/service dealer:

Phil,
No idea on the part #.
That part # was posted earlier in this thread by Alex (opers13). Twas a cut & paste on my part of that part # Alex listed. I was never given a part # by Denon.

From the problem you are having with Star Trek 3, it could very well be the skipping/laser problem. If you don't notice the problem on any other DVD, I would exchange the ST3 DVD for another if possible, or perhaps rent it.
My unit would very randomly pause for a split second. I could not pin point it to any specific DVD, nor any specific spot. It would also skip on DVD-A.

T

[Snakehunter]

I feel the same way Michael V. After my phnoe calls produced nothing, I sent Denon an e-mail 1 week ago questioning their position on my 3800, where they're calling their known manufacturer's defect (the laser pickup) a warranty item that I'm no longer eligible for, and didn't get any response. No customer service, no quote for repair, nothing. As far as I'm concerned, I'm done with Denon products.

[srp]

Originally posted by pnichols


I wonder if the predictable and repeatable pausing I am getting on Star Trek III is what others are seeing in their 3800's or just a bad DVD copy? If it's a bad DVD copy, I wonder if I should have this laser/tray assembly replaced just in case? I have a 5 year warrantly so my cost would be minimum. My tray also started a couple of months ago staying out - maybe every 10th activation of the tray. Otherwise my 3800 has been playing everything I throw at it without a hitch, even scratched DVD's. Maybe this is about to change, however. (I have the 194th production 3800 Denon built.)

Otherwise, as you know, the PQ is spectacular on movie after movie.

Phil,

If your pauses are repeatable, it is NOT the same skipping/freezing problem reported by most. The skipping/freezing problem most people see is very random and not repeatable by playing back over the spot in question. If your having glitches always at the same spot, you either have a "bad" copy either on that specific disk (scratch, flaw...), or something that is common to all copies of that title (like the special features disk of Beauty and the Beast). From your description, I would suspect the disk and if your otherwise happy with your 3800, I would leave well enough alone with the unit it's self.

I have a copy of Xmen 1.5 that has about 3 spots on it that cause glitching on my 3800. The glitches are always repeatable. I've never bothered to see if a different copy works any better. The original Xmen disk plays fine.

I'll try to look for my paperwork latter to see what partnumber was noted as being replaced when I sent my unit back for the laser assembly replacement. I do remember a part number noted, but no description as to what the part was which made me nervous if my replacement was really the laser assembly or something else.

I can say that my disk tray has the "won't stay open" problem after it went in for laser replacement, so I do not think the replacement solves that particular issue (assuming the laser is what they REALLY replaced in mine).

-Steve

[srp]

Originally posted by pnichols
The laser assembly the 3800's originally came with was # 9KC2A074A, so I'm wondering if # 9KC2A074B doesn't solve both the skipping/pausing problem and the "disc tray that won't stay out" problem?

FYI,
I did locate my repair paperwork. The problem was recorded as:

NEED LASER UPGRADE - CHECK ALL FUNCTIONS

The part used for replacement was:

Part No.: 9KC2A074B
Description: TRAV/MECHA(HOP1200R) OST-

Since the replacement, my skipping has been reduced if not removed (the RARE skip I do see, I attribute to dirty rental disks).

I do have the "tray won't stay open" problem now.

And I still think it's an awesome player.

The repair report was generated on May 20, 2003

-Steve

[opers13]

Just spoke to James (Denon NJ Tech),

they have had my 3800 for over 2 months now......Part No.: 9KC2A074B is still on back order...
James asked me to call back in 2 weeks to check on it.....James pretty much told me that most likely there is nothing wrong with the Laser pickup....he says it's probably the DVDs I have that are causing problems......So I told him that most of my DVDs are BRAND NEW!!!!!!!!!!!! So he blames the DVDs again...."maybe was how they were recorded" he says.........I said: James my other $60.00 DVD player plays all DVDs just fine.....unlike my $500.00 Denon 3800.......

so he asked me to call back in 2 weeks again.......

I'm not happy at all....

Alex

[Michael_V]

Well, it seems things are turning around at Denon California! My faith in corporate America in general and Denon in particular have been restored! They DO care about their customers!

I got a phone call from Randy Lam, service manager at the California factory. He said they were sending out a new 5900 to replace the 3800 that was lost.

Hallelujah!

I will keep all posted on its arrival and so on but right now you can count me an extremely satisfied customer!

Kudos to Denon for stepping up to the plate on this one!

[daddy_guy]

How cool is that? :DRandy was the one who helped me too when I sent my 3800 in for repair.....(DenonJeff hooked me up with him). He went way above and beyond the call of duty with my minor problem, sending me e-mail updates on the progress of my repairs, etc........ you are in good hands. I knew it!
You are a patient man, and with all the time and grief involved, you deserve it! Remember, Denon does make the finest DVD players.......and has pretty darn good customer service too. This is an incredibly good story...one that many people should hear, but few will............Keep us posted!
(Man, how lucky can you get! Lookin' to all be worth it now.....except now you have to buy SACDs too!!!!!Darn!!!:)

[Todd Schnell]

Excellent Michael! Nice to see Denon step up to the plate indeed. Looking forward to hearing your report on the 5900.

T

[andr3wpd]

They have my 3800 too, the freezes and lock-ups just got too frequent and annoying so I sent it in before the warranty expired. When I called last week they said that they had received it and that they should repair and return it within a week..... I have since called and left messages, never to hear a thing and now I stumble back into this thread to see all this bad news. Losing players, not having spare parts and denying problems all sound pretty bad to me.

There is no way the freezing is the DVD's, like opers13 so candidly put it happens with brand new DVD's that play fine on my $80 Pioneer and in a cheapo home-theatre-in-a-box.

[pgatour]

Well I started a new thread with my question, but thought I would post it here as well.

If I can get a 1 year old Denon 3800 with the new laser assembly, the chroma bug fix, and the Y/C delay fix for around $400, should I sell my Denon 1600 and upgrade?

What are the thoughts here?

Thanks,

Neal

[Michael_V]

pgatour,

Absolutely! I had the 1600 very briefly before moving on to the 3800 and I thought they were worlds apart in terms of build and picture quality.

Everyone,

Speaking of Y/C delay correction, I have a very nice set of component cables custom made for me by the nice folks at bluejeanscable to correct the delay seen with this player (Y=3 ft and Pb/Pr=21 ft). They are literally brand new since I only had my 3800 for about two weeks before sending it off to never never land back in September. If anyone is interested in these, please let me know!

[pgatour]

Michael,

Thanks for the reply. I think that is what I am going to do. He said he hadn't had any problems with the player but just got the upgrades done to keep it current. Hopefully it will just keeping going strong.

And by the way, enjoy the 5900...you definitely deserve it.

Neal

[andr3wpd]

Quick update. I spoke to Denon NJ and they are still waiting for laser pick-ups to be shipped in..... I guess they have to come from overseas by way of their parts department in Chicago. So expect another 2 weeks.

[sacarmic]

I just spoke with NJ as well. They are saying early Feb for the chroma delay parts too. I'm really starting to think that the Service Department manager needs to do some work in his department on customer service.

Scott

[ZICK]

FYI- I got my DVD3800 in Sept from ecost knowing they have these issues. Each time I get it back from Cal. it has a new problem. Repairs were: new firmware, laser asy, dvd transport, solder loose connections and more. It has seen Cal more than my HT room!!! Well, it's not recognizing the disk now and I'm getting "loading" msg. I've had it!!! I own and like Denon products but this piece of crap is history.

Question: Are there any DVD-r machines as good as the DVD5900 PQ with DVI connections? I'm going shopping.

[andr3wpd]

Well, I am keeping the faith and I do not want to complain too loudly, yet. The 3800 is a discontinued item and I am sure that due in part to AVS and other Internet boards there has been a run on new laser pickups.

[opers13]

Is there anyone over Denon that can actually help us???

[pnichols]

ZICK,

Your 3800 experience is unfortunate.

For the life of me I can't figure how Denon completely blew quality on certain 3800's while shipping a boatload of others that just sit there day after day and do their thing superbly. It's a mystery.

I believe Denon claims the 3800 quality issue was about a 3 percent problem ...... but boy, if you're in that 3 percent the situation can be bleak. I like Denon's customer service with regards to one poster in this thread - gave him a 5900 as a replacement for his ailing (and missing) 3800! Of course I'd want a 5900 without the dark-area-blotching problem, as the 3800 does not have this DNR filter issue due to it's use of a SI deinterlacer.

[ZICK]

Thanks for the empathy Phil.(& your insight)
I called ecost customer service to replace my unit with no luck. They advised me to the service contract that I purchased. Service may replace it if found to be irrepairable. So maybe a different pair of eyes might do the trick. I really like the 3800 when it works. The DVD-A is GREAT, making my Monitor Audios' sing. The best thing about my unit is that I have never seen the chroma bug. My wife loves the 3800 PQ and complains when we need to use the Sony DVP7700. The ecost manager offered me the DVD9000 @ cost and cost of shipping, but I'm not spending that much money on a player without a dvi connection. I bought the 3800 over the 5900 because I don't plan to buy SACD's and cost to performance. The future of video looks to be going through dvi connectors, which my PE & the 5900 has.
I'm glad to see so many other buyers have had good luck with theirs'. I have 3 other Denon products that have never even had a hick-up. If Denon ever builds a Pre/Pro unit, I'll look to replace my AVR5700 in the future.
Cross my fingers that the service contract people find the problem(s), then I will have one heck of a $450 player!!!(plus 3x shipping cost)
fyi- ecost told me people are buying refurbed Denons and selling them on Ebay. So buyer beware. You may end up with a bad unit and NO warranty, costing $100s more.

[ZICK]

The latest news on my 3800 is that Service Net wants to refund my purchase price without trying to fix it. They would not even give me the address of a service center in Dallas. That's fine but they're not getting it back unless they pay for postage.

[andr3wpd]

That is not cool. I considered the ServiceNet warranty but thought to myself that they would reneg on the warranty once they actually had to fix something!

[Michael_V]

First of all, Zick, I am sorry to hear of your troubles. I hope you reach some kind of resolution soon!

To everyone,

Well, the 5900 came in today and all I can say is GLORY HALLELUJAH. I have been in this hobby for some time now and have owned a number of high-end players, and I can honestly and unequivocally say that IT DOESN'T GET ANY BETTER THAN THIS. This is clearly the finest picture I have ever seen from a DVD player, and I'm not even using the DVI connection. My Panasonic plasma looks absolutely amazing! It is also the finest sound I have heard, and my system is no slouch (Anthem AVM 20 into Studio 40s). I just have to say THANK YOU, DENON, not only for crafting such a superb piece of hardware, but for caring enough about your customers to go the extra mile. Simply outstanding!

[ZICK]

Thank you Micheal_V
I'm so happy that you are impressed w the 5900.
As previously post, I want DVI for my PE
I'll be headed to my HiFi shop for a test drive next week. If it looks great on the PE 730 hdi floor model, the sale rep will have to give me a good deal. Does $1500 or less sound do'able?

[zoro]

730HDI, floor model for $1500 or low wow!! please get me one too..

[bspachman]

Another month, another revival of this thread....

I've had a 3800 for about 20 months now. I got it in Spring of 2002. It was one of the early February production run units. Last fall (October), the freezing finally got to me, so I sent it off to Denon NJ to get repaired (plus get the chroma delay fix).

I'm not really writing to complain about how it took nearly 4 months to be repaired and returned. (Although you can imagine that it might have irritated me a bit.) I'm writing because I finally got it reintegrated into my setup and I found that the progressive scan output is not working correctly. The colors are all messed up--unplugging the cables one at a time showed that the red cable (Yr/Cr) does not affect the picture. Unplugging Blue makes the picture Black & White. Unplugging Green makes the picture disappear entirely.

<Sigh>

Putting the player into interlaced mode & using the same 3 cables gives me a normally-colored picture.

Any ideas before I raise the roof?

Best,
Brad

[zoro]

I just wanted to CHECK>? if DVM-4800 was based on DENON-3800? performance? reliability advise?

[Sam S]

Originally posted by zoro
I just wanted to CHECK>? if DVM-4800 was based on DENON-3800? performance? reliability advise?

No, it's based on the Panasonic RP-91K.

Fairly reliable, great picture.

[zoro]

Thnx, how does it do, on video based material? any combing?

does it do, AR scaling like RP-91

[Sam S]

Originally posted by zoro
Thnx, how does it do, on video based material? any combing?

does it do, AR scaling like RP-91

Combs on poorly flag material like concert DVDs thay may have been shot on film, but edited on video. Video material is not so hot, as it doesn't have any motion-adaptive deinterlacing. Looks either soft or jagged.

For "most" Hollywood movies, it does a decent job. Yes, it does offer the scaling for 4:3 disc. The menu set-up and video features/peformance should be identical to RP-91K.

[daddy_guy]

I read these Denon "horror" stories with amazement.....my experience with Denon and their service dept. was stellar.....two weeks in the shop for a new laser pick-up and general servicing......
and the player is a gem of a product.............................especially for the price these closeouts were going for.........
All I can say is months in the shop is totally unaceptable...unless under extraordinary circumstances........I really feel for you all who have had so much trouble with Denon and the 3800...........
Just had to say I am one of the few who has been lucky I guess......and extremely happy!!
It seems no one writes about what a killer DVD player this is, only the horror stories......
I love my 3800, and Denon......still think they make the finest DVD players out there (for the price) and when the day comes, my next player will be a Denon too!:D

[pnichols]

My 3800 performed superbly for almost 1 1/2 years before it recently refused to go past the same spot without serious skipping on two of my favorite DVD's. The skipping was NOT random like I'm reading how the problem manifests itself on truly skipping 3800's, so maybe I just happened to have two bad DVD's in my collection instead of a skip-prone 3800.

However I dropped it off in the shop anyway along with the two DVD's and skipping chapter location information, leaving them with the very simple to understand instructions that I'll try the player in their shop when they say it's ready and I'll call it "fixed" when these DVD's no longer skip.

I also asked them to fix the Y/C Delay internally so I could again begin using my prized Nordost Super Optix component cables instead of long and cheap (but affordable) Rat Shack cables to get rid of Y/C Delay. I'm most concerned about the Y/C Delay "fix" screwing things up, but I decided to chance it. Hope I didn't make the wrong decision on that.

What still amazes me about the 3800 when it's performing well is that in some ways it's superior to the mighty 5900 (If you don't care about SACD or DVI). The 3800 has lightening fast menu response, no macro-blocking, less pixel cropping and matter-of-opinion-superior Silicon Image deinterlacing. Furthermore, due to the 3800's unique upward-slanted linear video response envelope all the way out to 10MHz (see the DVD Benchmark), it's Silicon Image deinterlacing can be made razor sharp if you wish - "just like Faroudja's" - unlike some other Denon Silicon Image players that put out soft appearing images due to almost universally designed-in rolloff. I see no softness in my 3800's images ....... while at the same time having that classic smooth, 3D-like Silicon Image look ...... what a set of image characteristics to have at the same time in the same player!


daddy_guy,

........... so with your upgraded 3800 ........ it sounds like it's rock solid now with nary a skip anywhere and no Y/C Delay as evidenced via the red/yellow bar alignment on the right side of the AVIA Y/C Delay screen? Also, how is your 3800's DVD drawer - does it occasionally come out and then go right back in by itself when you really want it to stay out? Did Denon do something on your unit to address this?

[daddy_guy]

I have never had any problems with the drawer.....yet.........and in the last few months I have thrown a lot of DVDs at the player.....I recently joined Netflix, so I am watching a lot of DVDs.........and it has never had a problem....of any kind.... with any of those used discs..(which can look pretty iffy, if you know what I mean)..........
My player only had the Laser pick-up assembly replaced, the software was updated, and a general check up.....I have read about the large number of fixes....19 I think....for this player and wonder what that is all about......
I am running through an older TV, the Sony XBR2 (squared) 32".....which only has interlaced picture....(still livin' in the stone age...)
and I can only use the S-Video input/outputs, so no problems with Y/C delay.....
My guess is that DVD Players need to be replaced more often than any other component.......they are full of critical moving parts, delicate mechanisms, etc.....and they will break down sooner or later......especially with the heavy use they get...at least in my house.....:p
I hope to at least get a couple good years out of this player though....and I plan to enjoy every minute!:D

[marty43]

Hi Everyone,

I have followed this thread with interest as I just got a 3800 as an upgrade to replace my 2800 which I have to say has been great since day one. I purchase mine from Dakmart as a B grade refurb and it was as new in Denon packaging with a Sep 2002 mfg date. However it skips on many of my movies. The picture and sound are outstanding on this player BTW so shame about the skipping and freezing problems.
I was particularly interested to see a post from Opers13 re James at Denon NJ. Because I returned my player last week to have the skipping fixed and I got a call yesterday from James stating that he could not find any problem with my player. I told him that many of my discs skipped, he asked which ones and I replied "two that spring to mind are Finding Nemo and Die another day" I explained all my Discs including these two play fine on my 2800.
Later on yesterday I get a second call from James telling me that these two discs are "Known problem" discs with the 3800. I asked if there was a list of these "Known problem discs" and he replied that I could find it if I searched the Web. My reply was " so explain why my Faith Hill DVD-A and freezes during the video extras and all my discs play okay on my 2800. He finally agreed to replace the laser at my request and to leave the servo board he had replaced as part of his diagnostics in the machine. However he said laser units where back ordered and I should phone back in 2 weeks for an update.
On the face of it I think it was good customer service for Denon to call me to discuss the problem, James also said that even after laser replacement he could not guarantee that the "known problem" titles would play but he seems a reasonable guy who understood I had paid $40 bucks to ship the unit back and really did not want to repeat that process. So bottom line is waiting for a laser assembly. Watch this space

[Todd Schnell]

Just to update - I just got off the phone with Denon, & the laser assembly part is due to arrive March 10. My 3800 has been in NJ for about 3 months now. Uggghhh@! I just hope they fix everything correctly the 1st time, & I will be content.

[bspachman]

I've crossed the line from peeved to pissed.

I called Denon today to get my 3800 re-repaired. The gentleman I spoke to was understanding -- ran me through some basic troubleshooting stuff to eliminate the bone-headed configuration problems -- and sent me over to a return representative to get the machine back. He stayed on the line, and when she wasn't available, said he'd shoot an email over to her with my contact information and that I could expect a call in the next couple of hours.

Imagine my surprise when the call didn't come. :(

The sad thing is... I love the machine. It worked great for several months before the problems with the early production units reared their ugly heads. I'd love to have it going again, but at this rate, I'm liable to go postal in Pine Brook!

<Sigh>

Thanks for venting,
Brad

[sacarmic]

If it is the same lady that usually handles reurns, she is terrible about getting back to you. If you stay on the phone, she will get everything taken care of, but she has NEVER returned my calls either of the two times my machine was back there.

BTW, I usually called once a week just to keep them on the ball so they didn't forget about my machine. I would like to know what the actual numbers of 3800's that have been sent back are.

I wish the manager of the service department would read this thread!!!!!

Scott

[pnichols]

"I would like to know what the actual numbers of 3800's that have been sent back are."

I believe I read in a post once by Denon Jeff that the 3800 return rate was under 3%.

They seem to have made a poor original component selection regarding the laser assembly, as selecting an OEM model that would have "run forever" should have been a no-brainer.

[bspachman]

In the interest of fairness:

After my small venting of March 3rd, I did get an RMA number the next day. However, I just received my unit back today--a total of 3 more weeks out of my possession. I'm almost afraid to do the math as to how long I haven't had a player....lesssee.....hmmmm, almost 5 months!!

Hopefully I can get it re-inserted & tested tonight after the basketball games are over...

<crossing fingers>

Brad

[Todd Schnell]

Well I just gave Denon a call to get an up-date, & was told my unit shipped out. After checking the tracking # it is scheduled for delivery today. Yes! Will report back after giving it a run through.

[marty43]

I spoke to Denon service yesterday and mine is due to be shipped out on Monday 29th. It will have been fitted with a new laser and should have had the Y/C delay mod done. Can't wait I have missed my player and its only been 5 weeks.

[pnichols]

Todd and Marty,

I'm curious if you guys actually saw the Y/C Delay in your 3800's on any calibration screens, or are you just pretty much having it done because it's one of the standard things Denon includes on 3800 upgrades?

Mine's on it's way to Denon for the tweaks and I'm hoping they actually make a difference to the good and don't wind up making anything worse. (i.e. I read a post some time ago where after the Y/C Delay fix, DVD menu's were "offset/misaligned" or something to that affect.)

Also, I'm curious as to before and after stories on the skipping. For instance, does anyone have a bunch of DVD's that used to skip with their 3800's and after the fix never do, etc.. That's what I'm hoping for as mine never skipped up to just recently on even then on only two of my favorite DVD's in the same predictable spot, so I'm hoping that I'll luck out and this rare skipping will even be eliminated on these ..... plus not get introduced on other DVD's that didn't used to skip! A 3800 that "never skips" with no Y/C Delay should be a real treat, as otherwise it's images and audio (IMHO) are beyond belief on DVD after DVD after DVD after CD.

[Todd Schnell]

Marty mine is supposed to have the y/c delay fix as well.

Phil I could definitely see the y/c problem using Avia.

I'm still waiting on UPS. :(

[marty43]

Hi pnichols

I did see Y/C delay I think. I have a Mitsi 47 inch table top RPTV which is due to have a service pretty soon which maybe contributing towards the effect I have. The problem I see is a halo type effect around the edges of objects which I originally thought was excessive edge enhancement on some DVD's. actually I never gave the Y/C issue a thought until the service guy at Denon asked me what size my TV was, when I asked "was this because of the Y/C delay issue" he said yes and would do the mod for me. I have not got Avia to test my setup but might consider this when my player comes back. My real hope is though that the skipping and freezing is fixed with the new laser assembly. As I said in my earlier post "Die another day" was the worst offender, so this will probably be the first disc to try although Denon have stated that even with a new laser they cannot guarantee this disc will play. I have to say that my problem discs never really skipped in the same place, only "finding nemo" constantly did it, always during the THX "Cow" intro. I will post my findings when my player is returned as I am sure you guys will, but you will have to be patient as I am away on Business until after Easter so probably wont get chance to test before that. Best of luck folks. I also agree that the picture and especially the audio on this player is outstanding. I did audition a 2900 prior to getting this player but returned it for 2 reasons. First the CD payback is not as good as the 3800 IMO, it had no warmth or midrange and a poor soundstage even after a weeks burn in. Secondly the PAL to NTSC conversion is terrible compared to my existing 2800 and the 3800. It was very jerky and worse than that the resultant converted output was shifted too far down the screen and was incorrect in aspect ratio which is important to me as I have a lot of R2 titles.

[pnichols]

I actually sent my two skipping DVD's in with the player for examples and stated that I would consider the skipping as fixed when "they and myself" no longer witnessed these two DVD's skipping. Just a little quality control accountability trick I tried that probably won't go anywhere, as I'm fairly certain some tech will just throw in the new laser assembly and what results is what I get. It'll be a miracle if these two DVD's and also no other DVD's I buy in the future skip after the new laser assembly is in place.

(I read somewhere where an owner found out they could adjust a positioning screw on their CD player's laser head and eliminate it's skipping on CD's as the player aged and dimensions changed. I wonder if DVD players could be adjusted in the same way by us owners?)

[marty43]

Hi pnichols

Just out of interest what where the 2 discs you sent

[pnichols]

I sent in with my 3800 these DVD's:

Fiddler on the Roof - always started skipping in the ghosts scene.

Star Trek: The Search for Spock - always started skipping where reborn Spock goes through his puberty ritual on the newly created planet.

I figured the odds were pretty low that I wound up with two bad disks of two widely distributed films and I also assumed that most owners of these disks were not seeing this with their other brands of players. I'm guessing that the new laser assembly that fixes the random skipping on the 3800 just maybe will cure other types of disk sensitivity not present in other players, too.

(After reading about the 2200's, 2900's, 5900's problem(s)/compromises, more and more I'm thinking that a solid 9000 or 3800 may just be the ticket in a DVD player for superb Silicon Image PQ - if one doesn't care about digital video output or SACD.)

[ZICK]

bspachman- 5 months??? Is this one shipping to Denon or multiple returns?
Mine was in 2 times to Denon and each time I had a different problem after receiving it back.
1st return was for freezing and the remote control would not work at all
Repair was; software, re-solder pcb and new pick-up asy
2nd was for freezing and it would just stop playing and not reset.
Repair was; new Transverse unit, upgrade software
After getting it back the second time: I would insert a DVD, then the disc tray closes and just sits there displaying "LOADING" on the front panel. And the remote quite working again.
I called to return it a 3rd time and was told that it is OUT OF WARRANTY?! over the 90 days. I said "What? Well heck, it was at Denon for 2 months of those 90 days" That nice but lamebrain women in Cal. service would not give me a return authorization number or give me the Service Mgr. because he "was out of the office"
I have probably played only 15 DVDs, 20 CDs and a few DVD-As total, since I bought it.
So I called Service Net to get it repaired and each time I called them it was 1-2 days before the service dept would return my ph call after contacting the call center. That went on for 2 weeks!!!
Service Net would never give me a definitive answer to ANY question, always a generac reply. When they did return my call after raising hell with them, they just refunded my $449 and canceled my contract without even trying to repair it. That took almost 1 month.
I was a Senior Electronics Field Engineer at Kodak for 20 yrs and this is not how you service a customer!!!! I know what to say and what NOT to say to a service group. So it's not like I pissed everyone off when communicating with them.
Where is Denon Jeff when we need him? Maybe we at AVS Forum need to sign a petition and send it to Denon. I'll bet this forum bought 20 or more of the 3800 and other refurb'ed model DVD players, Not counting the new units sales from all the great comments about Denon products.
3800 is a great player-when it works.
Phil Nichols- Do you have a way to contact Denon Jeff? please pm me.

[andr3wpd]

Zick

I will certainly be willing to be vocal about this. Denon has had my 3800 since early January. A few weeks ago they tried to say they couldn't replicate the problems but after redescribing the problem they agreed (for a 2nd time) to fix it. I was told the parts would be in and that it would ship on March 23rd.

I am yet to receive my player so I called again and now I am being told that the parts are going to be in this weekend and I should get my player late next week (i.e. approx April 15/16th).

I have NEVER had such awful service, and wonder where to go next. I feel if I kick and scream to much it will delay it further.

Andy

[Todd Schnell]

Just a quick note:
I have been too busy to use my 3800 much since its return. However I have played through 3 movies, & 1 DVD-A disc with no skipping. I have not had a chance to check the y/c delay with Avia yet, but hope to do that today. I'll report back as soon as I can.

Todd

[merc]

Jeez louise.

I just bought a brand new in box A stock Denon 3800 from a stock liquidator who was given the task of selling the entire stock of an authorized Denon Dealership gone bust. I am guessing that even though the player comes untouched from the Denon Factory via one of its' authorized dealers, the Denon warranty will be no good. However, I did just buy a 2 year service contract on the player for $29.

If when I set it up and it shows the Y/C delay on Avia, what phone number do I call to start the ball rolling on this player to get the design/manufacturing defect fixed? The phone number I found given by Denon Jeff is no longer valid as Denon has apparently closed its' California repair facility.

Thanks!

[Marc Alexander]

Don't send it in just for the Y/C fix. Use custom component cables to fix (read beginning of the thread).

[merc]

Don't send it in just for the Y/C fix. Use custom component cables to fix (read beginning of the thread).Marc,
Thanks for the suggestion. I did read about those that have or had those cables and even communicated with some of them. Still, why should I use huge jury rigged cables which will cost me alot of money when I can just send it in and have a perfect player? How in the world do folks even fit that much cable in their rack? With the Y/C Delay fixed, the 3800 would probably top the 5900 in the Secrets Shootout.

Also, if I wait to have the Y/C delay defect fixed later rather than immediately, I might have a harder time getting it done due to lack of Denon parts for the unit.

[mrpergo]

If I'm not mistaken Denon Jeff posted that the y/c delay fix is not a warranty issue and there would be a charge for it if you wanted to have it done.I haven't seen an amount posted.

[merc]

If I'm not mistaken Denon Jeff posted that the y/c delay fix is not a warranty issueThat can't be right, can it? How could Denon(or any major manufacturer worth a darn) sell a faulty unit, admit it is faulty, and then not fix it for free? Afterall, this isn't a cheap $200 DVD player we are talking about. I thought that design or manufacturing errors are EXACTLY what manufacturer warranties are for?

Nah... that's not the Denon (or Denon Jeff) that I know.

IIRC, Denon Jeff did say that it was a warranty MOD, not a warranty repair since they had to replace parts on the 3800 with some parts from the 9000, but that the mod would still be done under warranty, either original or extended.

Can anyone clear this up for us? DenonJeff?

[mrpergo]

This is the info I found from special guests forum:

daddy_guy,

I will get final clarification on the y/c mod, but my initial understanding would be no-charge but you pay for shipping, but again let me get final verification.

The delay is removed from the outputs of the player, so you wouldn't need to other remedies.

Regards,


__________________
Jeff Talmadge
Marketing and Product Manager
DENON Electronics (USA), Inc.

So No Charge except for shipping.I guess if you send it in for something else you can just have them do the y/c delay fix.
Mine just has a problem with the drawer so I'm not sending it in until it starts freezing.

[merc]

Thanks mrpergo.

That seems more like it. I'd be happy to pay for shipping into the repair center. I'm fine with that. :)

[andr3wpd]

Before you ship make sure they have replacement parts! I have been without my player for over 3 months!

[discs4sale]

Hi,

For the folks that are requesting the Y/C delay modification, how are you specify the description to customer service rep for the return authorization number? I called in to Denon in NJ and told them I want the Y/C delay modification and they wrote it down. Obviously it didn't make sense to the customer service rep. The head technician (Jim) has no idea what the Y/C delay fix I'm talking about and DenonJeff is out traveling for three weeks. What would Denon do when they receive the DVD player - do they know what to do or they need to consult DenonJeff? What is your experience for those who have gotten a successful fix? Thanks.

[merc]

Here is the parts list for another Denon 3800 which was fixed by Denon. I don't know if all or only part of this list fixed the Y/C Delay, or if any of it was for this problem? Still here's the list:

Denon part # ZD-2472006944 Res, RM73B-391JT
Denon part # ZD-2472006986 RM73B-561JT
Denon part # ZD-2472004904 Res, DVD9000 FOC MOD
Denon part # ZD-9KC2A074B DVD3800 MOD 9000 Travel & Mechanism
Firmware has been upgraded to DRV6193-2 & ESS6134-5

Good Luck to us all....

[pnichols]

It looks like the parts 3rd and 4th on your list are from the 9000.

I'm pretty sure from another parts list I saw that the 4th item down is the laser assembly (same as the 9000).

[merc]

Can someone direct me to a link for buying the delay boxes which were mentioned earlier in the thread as a fix for the Y/C Delay.

Thanks!

[mrpergo]

Merc on the first couple of pages of this post there are some people that had spare boxes for sale.They probably don't still have them but you could drop them a PM and ask what and where they bought them.

[pbmax542]

I just got my 3800 back for the shop. My invoice says that they replaced the laser and fixed the Y/C delay. Does anyone know if the Digital Video Essentials calibration disc has a Y/C delay test?

[ZICK]

Hay Gents,
Just another update;
After all my misfortune with this player (see my March post), I put the unit away for months.
I just finished my built-in AV rack & closet. After installing all my components, I figured I would give the 3800 one more try.
I connected it to the AVR5700 and fired it up...and to my surprise, it worked perfectly. It has not malfunctioned at all. I've played DVD's, DVD-A's & CD's. No disc loading issues, picture quality-very good, audio excellent and the remote works also.
Why is this?
My thoughts are that it may be the shipping. When I purchased the unit, it came with formed styrofoam. After repairs, Denon shipped it in peanuts both times. I question if the frame is flexing during the shipping.

I did get a very pleasent PM from DenonJeff directing me for service after I informed him of my issues. Now that the unit is operating, I'm going to roll the dice that it will continue to work and do not plan to ship it again.
I would definitely not ship it for the Y/C delay fix, which I'm not seeing.
btw- Service Net has refunded my purchase price of $449. So this unit cost me $75 for the service contract, tax and 2x $20 shipping cost. NOT BAD!
There is an audiophile god or is it gremlins?!
This a very nice player when it works!!! My fingers are crossed.

[pnichols]

ZICK,

"Service Net has refunded my purchase price of $449."

Hmmm.....they gave you a refund without asking for the unit back......not bad! I'm not sure which would have been the better deal however - giving you your money back or offering you a new 3910 as a replacement when it's released in July. (Although the 3910 may use Faroudja, which IMHO may not produce the overall film PQ that the Silicon Image deinterlacer inside the 3800 does. ;) )

"This a very nice player when it works!!!"

You bet.

[daddy_guy]

Yes, a very nice player ...........
My 3800 is a rock solid beast, and I still think it is a tough player to beat in terms of overall quality....
especially at the prices most of us have gotten it for......
glad to hear something positive about this player........guess you either really love it ....or really hate it. No in-between. Seems as if this thread has had more than its share of rants from the 3% that have problems (fixable problems)......good to hear from some of the other 97%........
great story ZICK!!!!!

Service seems to always be a major contention.......I guess I was lucky....I had a very good experience with Denons service.
So, overall, I couldn't be happier.......still!!!!:D

[pbmax542]

I recently got my player back from DENON's service center. It's Y/C delay has been corrected, but I have experienced one 5 second freeze-up. I guess I can live with 1 freeze-up every 10 dvds.

[merc]

Just to add to what's already been said, I've had my brand new 3800 for about a month and also just got Michael V's cables which correct the Y/C delay. All I can say is "Wonderful"!

The only glitch I've had at all in over 20 DVDs is a single lock up on the end of the first disc from Gangs of NY. It repeatedly froze on the same scene regardless of what I did. However, I attributed the problem to the disc being a DVD-R. It did not freeze up when I inserted the original disc.

Overall, I am extremely happy with the 3800... :)

[pnichols]

pbmax542,

Did the Service Center provide an itemized list of what they did to your 3800? If so, please post the list if possible ..... thanx.

[pbmax542]

Work Performed

CLEANED/CHECKED/TESTED ALL FUNCTIONS
REPLACED ALL PARTS LISTED
INSTALLED YC DELAY

Parts Used:
: PART NUMBER : DESCRIPTION : QTY : PRICE :
: 9KC2A074B : TRAV/MECHA(HOP1200R) OST- : 1 : :
Part Total: .00
Labor: .00
Tax: .00
Shipping: .00
COD: .00
Total: .00

Repairs are guaranteed for 60 days from receipt of product.

[pnichols]

Thanks for the detail. Looks like basically the Y/C Delay and new laser assembly.

[andr3wpd]

After a few months of ownership the freeze-ups got too bad so I sent it in for the repair. Well the freezeups are back. I waited 3 months to get it back (Jan-Mar) and the fix only lasted 4 months. Usage has been very light so who knows, did they even fix it? Quite disgusted. What should I do now, live with it?


Andrew

[heavymetal3001]

I went down the same road. A total of 2 trips to Denon Canada and I even went as far as to send it to Denon USA on my own nickel. After a few weeks, the problems started again. I sold it and went with a Denon 2800MKII that I must admit, isn't that great a player. I'm now looking at the new universal player from Denon. Why I keep looking at Denon I will never know.

[daddy_guy]

Sad to hear that many have had problems with this player. After 1 year mine is still performing like a champ.........with no problems.........and I play alot of movies from Netflix.....and we all know that these discs are usually pretty beat up! I think Denon makes the best DVD players, and as I said from the beginning, for the price I paid as a refurb, I couldn't be happier. Denon made a beautiful player with the 3800, and it has an outstanding picture, great audio, and serious build quality in my opinion!! My next player will certainly be another Denon!:D

[mrpergo]

I've had my 3800 B stock for about a year now and no problems except the drawer.I've had a problem with that since day one.A little open/close game and then it finally stays open.I was going to send it in for that at one time but everybody was having to wait 3 plus weeks and I wasn't going for that.
I must admit though,I have an eye on that new 3910:D
Maybe I'll get a good deal on a B stock 3910 soon.Then I'll have to upgrade.

[pnichols]

mrpergo,

"I must admit though,I have an eye on that new 3910.

Maybe I'll get a good deal on a B stock 3910 soon.Then I'll have to upgrade."

You call the 3910 an "upgrade"?! (I know, I know....it's model number is higher.)

Why would you want to "downgrade" to a 3910 that: weighs ~3lbs less than the 3800, steps down to Faroudja deinterlacing with 1/2 the chroma bandwidth as compared to the extraordinary Silicon Image deinterlacing in the 3800, that does/may not automatically squeeze 4X3 material like the 3800 does, probably does not have a gently rising video bandwidth all the way to >10MHz like the 3800 has, cuts off more image pixels at the perimeter (?????) than the 3800 does, and that may (?????) have macro-blocking that the 3800 lacks. :D

BTW, my 3800's recently upgraded drive and laser assembly is revision DRV 6193-4. Do you know what yours happens to be? I wonder what the DRV number is for the 3910?

[mrpergo]

Phil;
I know,why mess with perfection:)
Something new comes out you wonder if it will give just a little more.
I think my upgrade or tweak this time is to have my Hitachi 57swx20b
callabrated by Greg Lowen.
As far as the DRV #, DenonJeff sent me a couple of upgrade cd's last year that I installed to get me up to date.
I had a little scare yesterday when I put in the new Star Wars DVD.I put in the Star Wars IV (New Hope) checked upder set-up or options that EX was selected in sound and clicked to resume movie.The screen went black and stop came on the screen.The 3800 stopped itself.I pressed play again and it started right up and played just fine.I hope its just a glitch with the discl

[ZICK]

I'm very surprised that anyone can find a refurb 3800 any more.
I agree with Phil, why down grade? The 3800 does a GREAT job!
I got the PICK-UP ASY, upgrade software & 9KC2A074B TRAN/MECHA UNIT installed on 2 different trips. No Y/C repair but I don't see it on my PE730HDI
My "$75" 3800 has been working perfectly. If you remember that Service Net refunded me the purchase price which would have been trip #3. Mine began to not recognize the disk after the drawer kept opening then immediately close. It kept saying "loading". I put it away for 3 months then installed it in my new A/V closet. It acted up 1 time then I disassembled it and loosened the transport, banged it around a little then re-tightened, assembled and it has never acted up again.
mrpergo- maybe you have the same problem as I did. I suspect that the transport sensor is not quite activating. Do as I did, it can't get worse. (but I am a professional-ha ha).
Every time I watch dvds or listen to music on the Denon 3800, I smile!

[Marc Alexander]

Originally posted by mrpergo
Phil;
I know,why mess with perfection:)
Something new comes out you wonder if it will give just a little more.
I think my upgrade or tweak this time is to have my Hitachi 57swx20b
callabrated by Greg Lowen. I can think of a reason to upgrade. The Hitachi 57SWX20b upscales the 480p input to 540p or 1080i, so you do not benefit from the Denon 3800 as someone with a native 480p display does. You will likely gain benefit from a scaling DVD player which will scale to a native rate of the display (540p/1080i).

[ZICK]

OOOH...
The Hitachi has a built-in scaler???
I bet the Pioneer would like that! I'll check it out.

Thanks for the tip Marc!

[mrpergo]

Mark that's interesting. I never gave that any thought.Any players come to mind ? I might have to take one for a test drive:D

[ZICK]

I considered buying a scaler but decided to wait another year? for the HD-DVD controversy to get settled, then buy a new DVD player w DVI.
It's been 1 yr and I'm still fine tuning my Pioneer and Denon. I just rented a house to a whole house automation installer that is lining me up with his ISF tech do do a complete calibration on the Pioneer.

[Marc Alexander]

Originally posted by mrpergo
Mark that's interesting. I never gave that any thought.Any players come to mind ? I might have to take one for a test drive:D Since I'm not a fan of scaling DVD...I can't say I have test driven any other than the Denon 5900 (and that was on a Hitachi plasma which adds yet another layer of scaling to its native rate). If you glance at the DVD Player forum, you'll see that all scaling players seem to have issues (like macroblocking)at 1080i (including the 5900). I would have to say the Pioneer 59AV is probably the best but it ain't cheap.

The best match for a Hitachi would be a player that can scale to 540p. I don't know if the Pioneer can do 540p. I believe the Bravo and Momitsu players may be able to do it with certain firmware.

Zick, if you display is a Pioneer Elite CRT...you will not benefit from scaling DVD (unless you suffer from visible scan lines at close distances). Stick with the 3800 or move to a 5900 and use 480p out.

[Marc Alexander]

BTW, my player started developing the freezing on DVD playback. I did my own mod to try and alleviate the problem. I'll post the simple mod after it runs a bit longer problem free. So far, no problems (keep your fingers crossed for me...I do not want to send my player in).

[pnichols]

ZICK,

Yeah.....I have that occasional drawing going-back-in-by-itself issue on mine too - started doing it after about 1 1/2 years of running. Probably something dirty around the tray sensor. I'll have to crack it open and take a look one of these days, otherwise everything is honky-dowry with mine. I had the upgrades done recently to allow me to go back to my Nordost S-Optix component video cable and to ensure that skipping wouldn't eventually start up. I've yet to see a layer pause on any DVD .... must be the persistence of my eyes is too long.

BTW, no one has yet recalculated the 3800's/9000's Secrets scores with their Y/C Delay removed. I'll bet elimination of Y/C Delay scores each of them somewhere above 92, as a minimum. No Y/C Delay leaves the 3800 & 9000 as the only players with only 2 non-green boxes and with the blue having no number in it ..... out-doing even the mighty 5900. I'll take the 3800's and/or 9000's "Silicon Images" over Faroudja every time. As you know the 9000 is the only Denon powered with 14-bit video DAC's.

(Although I'll admit that I've noticed one scene that is not perfect - that doggone waving flag on my Faroudja test disk - I wish Faroudja wouldn't have put that flag on their disk. :D )

[ZZtop]

I started a thread with this yesterday, but after 61 views it only got one reply so maybe if I post here I can do better.

Bought open box Denon DVD-3800 for 140$, how to check its firmware/ hardware current

Picked one up for 140$ from a local B/M. No remote, no manuals. I got the player and the box and the power cord . Mfg date is April 2002. Supposedly it was sent to Denon for a checkup at some point but no one knows if anything was done to it.

I am currently digging through a zillion threads, but with all the recent threads comparing upconverting threads comparing players to those with SIL504 chip I have like 8 pages of threads to dig through when searching for 3800 or dvd-3800.

I have a Denon DVD-2910 here for comparison at some point when I get my pasma back, just running into a Sony tube for now-- so I have the remote from that if the codes are the same/similar. It seemed like a real find for 140$ or did I just buy a piece of junk and the saleman have a joke at my expense. He seemed to be grinning and in a hurry to get me out of the store, even ran out it to my car for me.


In reading I see mention of a fix for the chroma back, firmware updates, defective laser assemblies in the Feb 02 manufacture run and one other fix that I can quite identify from the threads yet. Maybe those knowledgeable can help.

I did see a post in months past about a multiregion 3800 firmware if anyone knows where it's at.

I'll say this much it's one tall, heavy piece of equipment.

I watching it right now, it doesn't seem to be separating the blacks as well as the 2910 did on the tube.

update:

I checked firmware and such:

ESS: 626
DRV: 6100
ESS: 6134
PANEL: 6093-2

Can anyone tell me what each of these mean?

I got copy of the multiregion firmware, the ESS Panel Update file and the two 2 chroma bug files. I flashed it with the chroma and the ESS panel update and no versio numbers changed, so either it was the same or it did not take....

[Marc Alexander]

Try reading this thread. All the info you need should be right here.

[ZZtop]

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
Try reading this thread. All the info you need should be right here.

I found several versions of the panel fix listed, some posts listing the y/c delay fix included in warranty, some posts were it was not , and other conflicting info.

It was in the thread I found out how to get the verison numbers to display on the 3800. ;)

I read the entire 13 pages of the thread last night and several other small ones. While I got some information, I also found mutliple versions, fixes and multiple answers to the same questions, so I posted for current info.

[Marc Alexander]

http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2682284#post2682284

[ZZtop]

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2682284#post2682284

The geocities link has little current information and all the links are dead except the ones to the 3800 photos on the Denon site. The links to both firmwares and manuals have been dead for quite some time and that they are dead has already been posted on avsforum.

[Marc Alexander]

Originally posted by ZZtop
The geocities link has little to no information and all the links are dead, both to firmwares and manuals and it has been dead for quite some time it was posted on here already that the links on that page don't work. Hmmm...just checked and the multi-region firmware link is still active. You may have a local problem.

http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/Firmware/3800/Denon3800_EuropeanFirmware_December2002.zip

[ZZtop]

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
Hmmm...just checked and the multi-region firmware link is still active. You may have a local problem.

http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/Firmware/3800/Denon3800_EuropeanFirmware_December2002.zip

Thats great, but since I posted above I already got a copy of the firmware I am not sure it gets me anything, do any links work to any sources of information to answer my post asking for current info?

[Marc Alexander]

all the www.geocities.com/denon3800 links seem to be working

In fact, the only link that is slightly broken is the direct link to the shootout review (but it does take you to the search page).

If you have problem downloading something (after disabling any popup blocker), PM me and I'll email it to you.

[ZICK]

This may help: http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/
Phil Nichols KNOWS this player, read his replies.

[ZZtop]

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
all the www.geocities.com/denon3800 links seem to be working

In fact, the only link that is slightly broken is the direct link to the shootout review (but it does take you to the search page).

If you have problem downloading something (after disabling any popup blocker), PM me and I'll email it to you.

Since there seems to be a major breakdown here in communications, I will cut and past some of the links here that don't work. I just called 2 neighbors they don't work for them either. Are you guys saying these links work for you?

Checking Firmware Levels Instructions
http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/Docs%5CChecking-Firmware-Levels-Instructions.txt

Firmware Upgrade Instructions
http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/Docs%5CFirmware-Upgrade-Instructions.txt


Denon DVD-3800 DVD-A Setup
http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/Docs%5CDVD3800-DVDA-Setup-Tips.pdf

[mrpergo]

ZZtop I have the DVD 3800 manual and DVD-Audio set up on pdf.
PM me with an Email addy and I'll send them to you.

[ZZtop]

Originally posted by mrpergo
ZZtop I have the DVD 3800 manual and DVD-Audio set up on pdf.
PM me with an Email addy and I'll send them to you.

Thank you very much, you are a kind soul!:)

[Marc Alexander]

Originally posted by ZZtop
Are you guys saying these links work for you?

Checking Firmware Levels Instructions
http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/Docs%5CChecking-Firmware-Levels-Instructions.txt

Firmware Upgrade Instructions
http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/Docs%5CFirmware-Upgrade-Instructions.txt


Denon DVD-3800 DVD-A Setup
http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/Docs%5CDVD3800-DVDA-Setup-Tips.pdf Nope...but these do (looking at your url format...you may have a browser issue)

Checking Firmware Levels Instructions
http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/Docs/Checking-Firmware-Levels-Instructions.txt

Firmware Upgrade Instructions
http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/Docs/Firmware-Upgrade-Instructions.txt


Denon DVD-3800 DVD-A Setup
http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/Docs/DVD3800-DVDA-Setup-Tips.pdf

[ZZtop]

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
Nope...but these do (looking at your url format...you may have a browser issue)

Checking Firmware Levels Instructions
http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/Docs/Checking-Firmware-Levels-Instructions.txt

Firmware Upgrade Instructions
http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/Docs/Firmware-Upgrade-Instructions.txt


Denon DVD-3800 DVD-A Setup
http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/Docs/DVD3800-DVDA-Setup-Tips.pdf

They weren't last night, I had 3 neighbors check them. It maybe they are just up and down at time. 3 neighbors tried with Mozilla, IE 6, and Firefox.

[Marc Alexander]

The links you posted have a \ where it should have a /

Did you try my links?

[ZZtop]

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
The links you posted have a \ where it should have a /

Did you try my links?

I am aware of that, I did a copy a paste for reference, but the neighbors tried them from the original page. I am not going to waste any more time on why the links did or didn't work, as you can see mrpergo did step forward last night and helped out.

[ZICK]

ZZtop
Go to denon.com and be sure to get the tech sheet on DVD 3800/9000 set-up proceedures, it helps.

ZZ Top is one of the coolest live bands I've ever seen (3 or 4 times), and I've seen most of the big bands. They are usually best in TEXAS.

[ZZtop]

Originally posted by ZICK
ZZtop
Go to denon.com and be sure to get the tech sheet on DVD 3800/9000 set-up proceedures, it helps.

ZZ Top is one of the coolest live bands I've ever seen (3 or 4 times), and I've seen most of the big bands. They are usually best in TEXAS.

Hmm, the best I ever saw live as far as bands would be the Eagles and then the original Fleetwood Mac lineup. I have seen both many times. Simply incredible bands every moment on the stage.

Actually though one of them recently died, a major surprise was to see the Bee Gees about 10 years ago on their reunion tour. Don't laugh, besides the disco stuff<ducks>;) , they have written/authored so many many songs, the audience was literally just stunned that ALL the material they played was actually theirs.

[ZZtop]

Outbound:

ESS: 626
DRV: 6100
ESS: 6134
PANEL: 6093-2

Inbound:

ess 630
drv 6100
ess 6134a
panel 6093-2


However, right out of the box, the first 2 dvd's played froze up multiple times. So much for speaking with Denon repair on the phone and reiterating my problems with the dvd loader. It seeems to play discs fine, and most of them far with freezes. They are random spots on the dvds not the same ones, usually inidicative of a problem with the dvd but not always. Sometimes certain color scenes or certain movies can give certain mfg players a problem. Nemo and "Another Day" are said to be rough on all dvd players.

Arrgghh, this took about a month. The only notation besides software updates on the repair slip was a pickup assmbly, which I thought would mean it has a new laser drive but if it does, it does not work right.

[erandmckay]

Originally posted by ZZtop
Outbound:
However, right out of the box, the first 2 dvd's played froze up multiple times. So much for speaking with Denon repair on the phone and reiterating my problems with the dvd loader. It seeems to play discs fine, and most of them far with freezes. They are random spots on the dvds not the same ones, usually inidicative of a problem with the dvd but not always. Sometimes certain color scenes or certain movies can give certain mfg players a problem. Nemo and "Another Day" are said to be rough on all dvd players.

Arrgghh, this took about a month. The only notation besides software updates on the repair slip was a pickup assmbly, which I thought would mean it has a new laser drive but if it does, it does not work right.

Any changes on how it is working?

[erandmckay]

Originally posted by ZZtop
Outbound:
However, right out of the box, the first 2 dvd's played froze up multiple times. So much for speaking with Denon repair on the phone and reiterating my problems with the dvd loader. It seeems to play discs fine, and most of them far with freezes. They are random spots on the dvds not the same ones, usually inidicative of a problem with the dvd but not always. Sometimes certain color scenes or certain movies can give certain mfg players a problem. Nemo and "Another Day" are said to be rough on all dvd players.

Arrgghh, this took about a month. The only notation besides software updates on the repair slip was a pickup assmbly, which I thought would mean it has a new laser drive but if it does, it does not work right.

Any changes on how it is working?

[ZZtop]

They were random freezes and its happened again for a 1-2 seconds maybe once per 10-20 discs. Not sure what the cause is, I am wondering if the laser in this unit is really senstive to any tiny dust or particles on the dvd because I can't get it to repeat the freezes ever on the same discs played again through the ame spot.

On the other hand this was exactly the error people had with this box, non-repeatable time/location specific temporary freezes for like 1-2 seconds.

Denon did tell me Finding Nemo, Die Another Day, and The Matrix movies all cause many brand models to do this sometimes.

I agree with for a small handful of very difficult to process discs, both my panasonic dvd players simple refused to play the first Matrix movie at all.

Bottom line, I love it, its been reliable except for the above glitch and gives a stunning picture. Best color reproduction and accuracy I have seen and NO green tints and what appears to totally zero macroblocking.

I am firmly of the of opinion that the 3800, ESPECIALLY for film, gives the best quality component image I have ever seen, and it reproduces the full color palette. I think the 2910 or the Faroujda 2310 based players, which give everything a video like appearance, are missing some of the really
subtle colors and tints completely. Its almost like the color data is missing altogether.


Makes me wonder if the chip implementations of the 2310 , or maybe the colorspace chip processing of the DVI which I use for my 2910 , and possibly the HDMI (which I have never used) have errors.

There is huge thread about the HDMI and colorspace technical data on this forum. Its a bit of a hard read, but basically summed up seems to say the HDMI implementation can have some color reproduction issues. That makes me wonder about DVI and the 2310's color as well.


One person posted in the above thread , if I understood his post , was that the end result was like loosing about 3% of the color information from the dvd disc.

My test for this was the newly restored Pink Panther Original Movie with Capucine and David Niven and Peter Sellers.

I have also noticed this subtle color loss on other nature and outdoor shot films on the 2910. While people may not see it, when I switch from the 3800 to the 2910 and then back to the 3800 its a noticeable difference, neighbors all see it immediately,

I think the 2910 is a good player with all 3 firmware updates for a Faroujda 2310 box, but had I gotten the 3800 first, I would not have bothered with the 2910.

[mrpergo]

my 3800 is back at Denon for service.They have had it for about 3 weeks and I'm missing it dearly :)
Its in for the drawer,which wouldn't stay open long enough to get a DVD in so I finally had to send it in.Out of warranty of coarse:mad: While its in there I am having them do the y/c mod.I contacted them last week and they said they were waiting for parts that should be in this week.It's gonna be $200.00 for the repair and mod so hopefully it will be perfect when it gets home.
In the mean time I bought a Zenith DVB-318 that upconverts to 1080i but its no 3800.

[pnichols]

mrpergo,

Please keep us informed on all you learn about that drawer closing by itself thing.

Mine started doing it after about 1 1/2 years of use. I've detected somewhat of a pattern to it - when the player is cold ON THE FIRST PUSH of the Open/Close button the drawer 95% of the time goes back in by itself - with every push of the button AFTER THE FIRST PUSH when the player is still cold 95% of the time the drawer stays out as it should. When the player is warm, the times it goes in when it should stay out are, so far, not predictable and rare enough in occurrance so as to not be too irritating.

The whole thing is very strange. If you get a chance, please ask the Denon repair center technician if there is anything we can do ourselves at home to fix this, instead of sending our 3800's in ..... thanks in advance if you get a chance to do this. ;)

[epiney]

Phil,

Mine does that on occasion. I blamed it on faulty programming of my MX 800. I guess it's not the remote's fault. It doesn't happen that often to be really annoying though, but something to watch. I have an extended warranty for another year.

[mrpergo]

Mine just did it on occasion right after I got it.It wasn't a big problem because it was like 1 out of 10 times.Then as time went on it happened more and more frequently.DenonJeff told me to try and do a reset because the eye was probably out of wack,which did not work.There was a post awhile back about pulling the drawer out a little to get it back in line,and that worked to get it to 1 out of 5 tries.Then I seen my wife trying to drop the DVD in on the fly between the drawer opening and closing and that was it.Time for the shop.
The part they're replacing is the Trav/Mecha(hop1200r) OST-690.
I'm guessing thats the whole drawer mechanism.Don't know for sure.I Emailed Cristina Balagtas at the repair center to make sure my estimate included the y/c mod and she replied that it did and the part they are waiting for is for the y/c mod.
I'm waiting patiently for that big beast to get home :)
I'll fire of an Email to see if there is any preventive maintenance or adjustments we can do on our end to prevent this in the future,or a simple fix to avoid sending the unit in for repairs.

[erandmckay]

Originally posted by mrpergo

The part they're replacing is the Trav/Mecha(hop1200r) OST-690.
I'm guessing thats the whole drawer mechanism.Don't know for sure.I Emailed Cristina Balagtas at the repair center to make sure my estimate included the y/c mod and she replied that it did and the part they are waiting for is for the y/c mod.
I'm waiting patiently for that big beast to get home :)
I'll fire of an Email to see if there is any preventive maintenance or adjustments we can do on our end to prevent this in the future,or a simple fix to avoid sending the unit in for repairs.

Keep us posted...I'm holding off on my purchase until I hear how this latest round of upgrades goes. BTW, would the warranty cover any of the repairs you list?? (I figure if I buy one from eCost, I've got 90 days).

[Marc Alexander]

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
BTW, my player started developing the freezing on DVD playback. I did my own mod to try and alleviate the problem. I'll post the simple mod after it runs a bit longer problem free. So far, no problems (keep your fingers crossed for me...I do not want to send my player in). I believe I have eliminated the random freezing that was occurring on my 3800. It's been months now without any problems.

Whenever I experienced freezing I would rewind and replay. Sometimes the freezing was duplicateable, in these cases it was due to dirty/damaged discs. When the freezing was not duplicateable, I would eject the disc and it would be piping hot! The discs were always quite warm whenever I ejected after watching a movie. Heat is quite detrimental to electronic components, so I decided to find the heat source and try to dissipate it.

I started early one weekend morning. The first thing I noticed before taking the 3800 apart is that there is no heat ventilation or fan. This chassis is sealed tight! I removed the cover and began a DVD. I restarted it at the finish and waited. After 4 hours in the deck, I ejected and found the disc to be quite cool. INTERESTING, this tells me the transport is not the heat source. Ater further investigation, the only large heat source in this unit is the power supply. It doesn't produce much heat, but I'm sure the cumulative result of not being ventilated is causing the overheat.

I decided to put the cover back on and see what happened. The disc still wasn't getting very hot. WTF??!! Ahh, I hadn't put the screws back in and the it was providing enough circulation to dissipate the small amount of heat generated by the power supply. Screws back in, now the disc is getting warm...but still not hot. Now the pieces are starting to come together. When I first got this player, I did not have any problems (my player came from ecost with the Y/C delay fixed). I had replaced my Kenwood Sovereign reciever with a Yamaha RX-V1400 (which was on the shelf underneath the Denon). I had not realized how much heat the Yammy was generating. Heat was rising right up and heating the 3800.

Final solution was to move the Yammy and all other heat generating components to shelves above the 3800. I also took all of the cover screws back out of the 3800 to allow the screwholes to be tiny vent holes for the heat generated by the power supply. I've been virtually problem free for some time now. The only problems I have now are with discs that a dirty/scratched. The 3800 is still quite sensitive to these. I make sure discs are clean now, and play any rentals on my Malata player.

[erandmckay]

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
I believe I have eliminated the random freezing that was occurring on my 3800. It's been months now without any problems.

Thanks for the tip!

[pnichols]

Mark,

I see you have a Malata? Is your model the one that has X-Y pixel scaling capability? I've drooled over that feature for years. Now ... if only my 3800 had it I'd be blessed with the ulitmate 480p DVD player. I have to run my 3800 in interlaced mode for letterbox (non-anamorphic) DVDs so my display can scale them - thus giving up the 3800's superb deinterlacing and using the displays deinterlacing.

Before upgrade, my 3800 ran hot for 3-4 months then cooled down to a slightly warm steady-state. After upgrade it runs about the same as before after it settled down to steady-state (slightly warm). I've noticed that the amount of warmness varies with the disc - some DVDs warm the box more than others! With CD's the box is BARELY warm at all after hours of playing. I think the amount of heat is laser energy related and may have to do with how, or how much of, the laser light is bouncing around inside the drive for any given disc - maybe related to the reflectivety of the surface of the disc?. To add to my reflectivity theory, I had a disc (before upgrade of my 3800) that Denon Jeff sent me that had a Denon advertising paper label covering the entire upper surface. This disk would not play at all even though it was intended to be a Denon demo disk. Jeff suggested I entirely remove the paper label - I did (dumbly scratching the DVD badly in the process) and the disk has played flawlessly to this day - with all the scratches ..... before and after the laser assembly upgrade.

As a side note, before the upgrade I had a two different movies that would solidly hang every time in the same spot. After the upgrade, one of the DVDs plays just fine and the other still hangs - but not for as long a section of the disc tracks and I can now force the player pass the "bad" section on this 2nd DVD. So ... the new laser assembly did change SOMETHING in addition to the player never running hot with the upgraded assembly..

BTW, I have another piece of equipment (never ON when the 3800 is on - an old audio cartridge deck) sitting on top of my 3800 and I have all screws in my 3800's cabinet.

[Marc Alexander]

Yeah...I agree that the new laser assembly probably performs better all around (in addition to being more heat resistant). Interesting info regarding reflectivity and the paper label.

My Malata is indeed the X-Y scaling 996. It's great for multi-region (especially PAL) and non-anamorphic DVDs.

[Crunchyriff]

Hey! This is the thread I may need when my 3800 arrives (hopefully today) via FedEx.
I was going to go digging for it, and voila!, here it is. Right up front.

Cool! You folks are outstanding.

[ZICK]

My open/close problem was cured by loosing then retightening the transverse asy.

[pnichols]

ZICK,

"My open/close problem was cured by loosing then retightening the transverse asy."

Thanks......boy, I wish I had a photo showing what you mean.

What do think is causing it, then?

[pbmax542]

I'm holding off on my purchase until I hear how this latest round of upgrades goes. BTW, would the warranty cover any of the repairs you list?? (I figure if I buy one from eCost, I've got 90 days).

My warranty covered the y/c mod, and the new laser. I am sure that it would have covered the drawer problem, but I haven't had it yet, and my warranty ends this month.
I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to buy a 3800 if I were you. They are getting to be pretty hard to find, and Denon just doesn't make em like they use to.

[Crunchyriff]

Well ladies & gents, what arrived yesterday looks, smells and feels like a NEW player- not a scratch n dent 'refurb'. Very nice. Yes, I got mine form ECOST.

Build date is Feb 2002, it has the chroma bug,(once you see it, you are ruined, right?) and this was seen in Finding Nemo; all the firmware codes appear to be pretty 'early' as follows:

Display: ESS 408
MENU: DRV 6067
MENU: ESS 6094
MENU: Panel 6093

FWIW, the DVD tray/drawer fits as new.

We pounded about 5-7 hrs worth of viewing material through it yesterday, and even with the Chroma-bug present, and the Y/C issue, it still is just a STUNNING display. Mrs Crunchy is very impressed (WAF is very high, I repeat, VERY high!); and that too is a good thing...she can see obvious improvements in PQ, and they are not slight in comparison to the old Tosh5109. It's not even a fair fight... ;)

Now, about ecost- they promised FedEx- it was shipped UPS. (thankfully unscathed..). My order date was 12/16/04; and whereas the online price at the time was "X" amt; and, on 1/04/05 when they updated their website, and listed them as "in-stock" agian the price was 40 bucks less the day my unit was drop-shipped from Denon..than when I ordered it (just 3 wks prior). I'm going to call them and see if they will credit me the price decrease.

40 buck IS 40 bucks, and will cover my shipping charges back to Denon for the warranty stuff.

Anyway, issues and all, this player is incredible.

[ZZtop]

Originally posted by Crunchyriff
Well ladies & gents, what arrived yesterday looks, smells and feels like a NEW player- not a scratch n dent 'refurb'. Very nice. Yes, I got mine form ECOST.

Build date is Feb 2002, it has the chroma bug,(once you see it, you are ruined, right?) and this was seen in Finding Nemo; all the firmware codes appear to be pretty 'early' as follows:

Display: ESS 408
MENU: DRV 6067
MENU: ESS 6094
MENU: Panel 6093

FWIW, the DVD tray/drawer fits as new.

We pounded about 5-7 hrs worth of viewing material through it yesterday, and even with the Chroma-bug present, and the Y/C issue, it still is just a STUNNING display. Mrs Crunchy is very impressed (WAF is very high, I repeat, VERY high!); and that too is a good thing...she can see obvious improvements in PQ, and they are not slight in comparison to the old Tosh5109. It's not even a fair fight... ;)

Now, about ecost- they promised FedEx- it was shipped UPS. (thankfully unscathed..). My order date was 12/16/04; and whereas the online price at the time was "X" amt; and, on 1/04/05 when they updated their website, and listed them as "in-stock" agian the price was 40 bucks less the day my unit was drop-shipped from Denon..than when I ordered it (just 3 wks prior). I'm going to call them and see if they will credit me the price decrease.

40 buck IS 40 bucks, and will cover my shipping charges back to Denon for the warranty stuff.

Anyway, issues and all, this player is incredible.


I can't tell you many people I know and posts I have readed of destroyed or smashed Denon equipment by UPS. Denon stuff is packaged just barely okay, but really needs to be double boxed when shipped if its going to be abused at all.

I myself had UPS destroy a receiver and dvd player both this year. The dvd player's entire front was smashed to bits, they must have really dropped the box hard on that side I guess. Talk about anger, shock, and frustration when I opened the box. It was in a white foam wrap so the pieces didn't make any noise or I would have refused delivery.

Always ask for Fed ex if possible

[Crunchyriff]

Believe me, I requested my ecost sales rep for FedEx shipping, and verified it twice before ending the ph. call. I'm not exactly happy about it. I'm wondering if their sales policy is to tell you anything you want to hear...I dunno...

Funny thing is- both on my online invoice AND the invoice I received with the 3800, the listing is for a very vague "shipping charges"- a pretty vague listing, & Non-carrier specific. I ALWAYS request FedEx...or anything other than "Big Brown".

Believe me, I know all too well about your type of horror stories, bruddah.

I know FedEx isn't perfect as accidents DO happen; but the damage I know of firsthand due to UPS's notorious package molestation (and NOT due to 'inferior' packaging as they always allege...) is far into the tens of thousands of dollars. Positively SHAMEFUL.

My 3800 wasn't double-boxed...it was wrapped tightly in two layers of bubble-wrap, the box had a layer of peanuts, a false bottom layer of cd.board, then more peanuts, said wrapped 3800, then more peanuts on sides and the top.

C'est la vie?

I quarantee you that I'll double box it and take it down the street to FedEx for shipping....

[kevinca1]

Crunchy the 3800 you have does not have the y/c delay. The y/c delay happens when you get rid of the chroma bug. So it more or less is pick what you can live with, You also can get rid of the delay ask pnichols.

[ZZtop]

Originally posted by kevinca1
Crunchy the 3800 you have does not have the y/c delay. The y/c delay happens when you get rid of the chroma bug. So it more or less is pick what you can live with, You also can get rid of the delay ask pnichols.


Can someone give me a good example of a movie that would highlight y/c delay if there?

My 3800 has all the fixes but I though a scene in a movie with some heavy y/c it would be a good test.

[kevinca1]

ZZ i will pick the famous superbit of the fifth element. Go to the zorg sign if you have y/c delay you will see it around the sign.

[Crunchyriff]

kevin,

Being as I wll have the chroma bug eradicated, I will then need the y/c delay fix, too- heck, I'll pay Denon ex-tra if I have to to have to mod done internally- I don't want umpteen feet of wire laying around (for the fix) what, isn't it something like 17 feet of cable?

Tell me something- are you guys using your AV decoders instead of the 3800's? What connections are you using? Reason I ask is, I seem to be having NO subwoofer when playing a CD. ( I am using digital coax for my 5.1 hookup.) I'll double-check, but I'm pretty sure I'm getting the sub with my movies... (DD and DTS) My audio settings seem to be "in order" on the 3800. Basically, I just unplugged my Tosh 5109, and hooked the 3800 in its place- without changing any of the speaker timing, distance, etc. (that has remained the same).

Thanks.

[kevinca1]

Crunchy have you gone into the audio menu where the speaker settings are and turned the sub on?

[Crunchyriff]

yep.

[erandmckay]

Originally posted by kevinca1
Crunchy the 3800 you have does not have the y/c delay. The y/c delay happens when you get rid of the chroma bug. So it more or less is pick what you can live with, You also can get rid of the delay ask pnichols. ?????
I didn't realize they were related. I thought the chroma bug was a software issues (could be updated) while the y/c delay was a hardware issues (could also be fixed). Can they both be fixed (working properly) on the same unit?

[ZZtop]

Originally posted by kevinca1
ZZ i will pick the famous superbit of the fifth element. Go to the zorg sign if you have y/c delay you will see it around the sign.

Ok, I have the regular version of 5th Element, but where in the flick is the Zorg sign, I dont remember and dont want to play the whole thing.

[Crunchyriff]

That's what I thought, too. It is my understanding that once all the mods/upgrades are completed, there are virtually no issues with the player whatsoever (aside from the aformentioned two issues in the 'secrets' shootout)- perhaps I'm mistaken.

Got my sub going...had nothing to do with the player. My kids like to be "champion remote fondlers", and when they aren't rubbing the darn lettering off the buttons playing King of The REMOTE, said remote(s) get left in the couch, under gosh knows what, and mystery buttons get pushed by no-one human....

The sub level was backed all the way down in my A/V receiver..... dang kids..... thank God my sub wasn't toast, or something wrong with the 3800!

Getting eveything back into play: musically- the 3800 is just a tad dark sounding compared to my 5109, but in a good way; & I had to re-eq my rig a bit, and it's sounding VERY good. Can't wait to get some decent cables for the DVD-audio analog stuff and set it up.

Not only do I intend to kill the chroma bug, (which to me stands out like a sore thumb) but also that y/c delay. I hear that would be an upcharge from Denon for an internal fix for the y/c delay, but I'll spring for it.

You CAN have your cake and eat it, too!!

[ZZtop]

If I remember all the posts I read, the 3800 is a near perfect score with ALL the fixes.

This dvd was personally recomened to me by someone in the biz who works with dozens of brands of these things.

[pbmax542]

Originally posted by kevinca1
Crunchy the 3800 you have does not have the y/c delay. The y/c delay happens when you get rid of the chroma bug. So it more or less is pick what you can live with, You also can get rid of the delay ask pnichols.

I do not believe that the y/c delay, and the chroma error are in any way related. My unit had both problems when I first got it, along with the freeze up issue. DenonJeff FedExed me the chroma firmware, and I sent the player in for the freeze-up, and y/c fixes.
I do not believe that the y/c mod is covered by the warranty, but they didn't charge me for mine. I just asked them if they would fix it while they had it open for the laser replacement. Kind of like asking for a boob job while they are giving you a heart transplant.:D

ZZtop,
AVIA has a y/c delay test pattern

[Crunchyriff]

ZZtop,

Yessir, that's what I've heard too. I've been shopping very carefully for quite awhile, and waiting for prices to come down (as they have) to swoop on one of these bad boys. Refurb or not, it's a great piece, and heck, even after the warranty is over, I still can have it repaired if need be, which I'm willing to do.

[kevinca1]

I may be wrong but i belive kris at secrets said once you updated the firmware to fix the chroma bug it somehow gave you the y/c delay. i can verify it because the one i had didnt not until i updated the firmware. so they are not the same thing no but they are somehow brought on buy killing one of them. the zorg sign i belive is between chap 11-13 not quite sure but i belive it is chap 12

[Reaunt]

I just read this entire thread. eCOST is still showing that they have units available... after going through all the hassle you guys have been going through- would you still have purchased this refurb?

I'm thinking about buying it, and also buying a non-refurb 2900. I'll put my 3800 through hell and back until it breaks, send it for repair, and enjoy the 2900 in the mean time. Once I get the 3800 back... return the 2900. Or sell it.

I guess i'd have to sell it, as no place would accept a return on a used item weeks and weeks and weeks after purchase... which is apparently how long it takes (*gulp*months?*gulp*) to get a working 3800 back.


Did anyone find a way to contact DenonJeff again, now that daddy's method of getting ahold of him is gone?

Did anyone order and after the simple firmware cd have the DVD player work perfectly? I find it a bit scary that a supposed refurbished (and tested) product (the refurb 3800 as a whole) is being sold in a fairly large volume to the people in this thread- and not one yet has gotten a product that didn't need some sort of further repair. It's like Denon sold off the "to fix" pile, and is letting the chips fall where they may...

[mrpergo]

I have no regrets for buying refurbished.I bought from DakMart with a 1yr.warranty.I didn't care for the way they package these units for shipping but when I received it,it looked and played like a brand new unit.
DenonJeff sent me out the firmware update next day fedex and the player has been great.I did have the drawer issue pretty much from the start but it was something I could live with at the time.Plus I didn't want to give it up for any length of time.
These players have a gorgeous picture,great sound and built like a tank.(over 20 lbs)
This player will be my BABY for many years to come:D

[Crunchyriff]

When you get a $1200+ player for well less than half price, WITH a warranty, it's something to consider IMHO, especially THIS particular player, which will never be made again.

OTOH, I would have thought that Denon would 'do the right thing', and bring them up to date before shipping them out to sellers. It sure would save them the cost of having to deal with them later...but some 'beancounter' probably made the decision to handle it they way that they are. They won't spend the money on x-tra parts unless need be, which, for a company like Denon, is unflattering. If it were my decision, my companies' products would not leave without being "right" the first time.

No, it doesn't take "months" to get the units updated; from what I gather, 1 month turnaround is about avg.

Everybody is different, but for me, that's a small price to pay for what I consider a benchmark, legendary DVD player. Mine's going in for upgrades shortly.

[Reaunt]

If after several mail-ins, the unit still doesn't function propperly... are the refurbed units refundable? I'm thinking about ordering from ecost tonight, but I can't remember if they are the website that offers the extended warrenty that you guys had to call to add on or not (cause it vanished from your cart)- I guess it's time to re-read this thread.

Someone should summerize what they did to achieve sucsess and post it on the first page (or last one) as an update so that all 22 pages don't have to be read to catch up to this point. Summerizing the main problems to look for, the reccomended procedure in terms of calling to make sure they're actually replacing the laser, important people to contact... I'm sure someone could come up with a *REALLY* informative post full of the information needed from this thread. If this works for me, I'll do it.

I remember someone had good luck with the repair center in California, and had a direct number to it... but IIRC, that closed down. Can someone tell me how to get in contact with DenonJeff (just PM that name here?) so I can get the firmware, and possibly ask the same questions Daddy did?

Thanks.

[blackmax2k1]

I'd rather buy a brand new 2900 for $130 more and not have to send the player in. You can't tell me the differences are that big between a 3800 and a 2900.

[Reaunt]

That's what I was thinking, blackmax- but a number of people are claiming that they see a difference. Maybe set-next to-set I'd see a difference, but I don't think my eyes are trained enough. If I do end up with the 3800- I'll buy a 2900 from Tweeter, run some comparisons and take screenshots so that everyone can see the difference in my two units. Nothing like buying something when you plan to return it the next day :)

Unless it's a GLARING difference and someone elese already knows that? Is it?

[blackmax2k1]

This person seemed to like the 2900 better.

link (http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/HardwareReviews/Denon2900/Denon2900.html)

[umr]

Originally posted by blackmax2k1
This person seemed to like the 2900 better.

link (http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/HardwareReviews/Denon2900/Denon2900.html)

You need to read that review again. He liked the MPEG decoder on the 3800 better. He likely would have not seen a soft picture on the 3800 if it had the y/c delay fix. The luma frequency response curve on the 3800 looks better than the 2900.

It would not be a huge mistake to buy the 2900 though.

[blackmax2k1]

you need to read it again. "So, overall (apart from the slight chroma upsampling error and slightly jerky pans), the DVD-2900 provided the best video quality I have seen to date in a set-top DVD player."

"Initially, I was quite impressed by the sound. Although I no longer have the DVD-3800 or DVD-A1 for comparison, I felt the overall sound quality was better than the DVD-3800, but not as good as good as on the DVD-A1. I attribute the improvement in sound quality over the DVD-3800 (even though the DVD-2900 is a cheaper player) to the use of the better quality Burr Brown DSD1790 Audio DACs (in comparison to the PCM1738 DACs used on the DVD-3800). The noise floor of the player is wonderfully quiet and the player seems to be adept at extracting small nuances of detail."

[Marc Alexander]

If you are buying the player for audio, definitely get the 2900 as the 3800 does not support SACD (even though it's hardware reportedly is capable). Otherwise, with all the fixes, the 3800 outperforms the 2900 video-wise.

[blackmax2k1]

If you are buying for both then the 2900 is the winner. Plus you don't have to buy a refurb and send it in to get fixed for a month.

[erandmckay]

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
If you are buying the player for audio, definitely get the 2900 as the 3800 does not support SACD (even though it's hardware reportedly is capable). Otherwise, with all the fixes, the 3800 outperforms the 2900 video-wise.

Agreed...you'd be a winner with both, however, everything I read points to the idea that with a repaired/upgrade (y/c dely, etc), the 3800 is a better overall unit (and less expensive). You do have to wait for the repairs, but isn't is worth it?

[blackmax2k1]

You are also taking a gamble with a refurb sent by Ecost.

[pnichols]

Also, to summarize again some issues re the 3800 - the 3800 plays HDCD unlike the 2900, the 3800 uses Denon's AL24+ processing unlike the 2900, and the 3800's extra weight is most likely at least partially due to the large power supply transformer and various large capacitors that show in interior photos. BTW, does the 2900 handle slide shows from your digital camera and photo CD's with various fades, zooms, etc. like the 3800 does?

[mrpergo]

you go phil :)

[erandmckay]

Originally posted by blackmax2k1
You are also taking a gamble with a refurb sent by Ecost.

Besides packing/shipping, is/are there any other issues I ought to know?

[mrpergo]

its under warranty.Put it through its paces and enjoy :)

[Crunchyriff]

From what I gather the 3800's audio (apples to apples) IS superior to the 2900, however w/ the 3800 there is a lack of SACD. (and I'm wondering if there is a "black-ops" type of fix for this..)

HDCD is supported on the 3800, however. I don't think you can honestly say the 2900 will best a properly-configured 3800, because- it's on a completely different tier. I'm not slagging the 2900 at all; but the 3800 was the 2nd-chair DVD offering, only being topped by the 5900. The 2900 is third-chair. Remember Denon's replacement for the 3800 is the 3910. The 2900 is great, but it's outclassed in rank & build by both.

I was a shopper who as per blackmax, "bought for both", and FWIW, I selected the 3800.
YMMV.

IMHO, the only "gamble" you are talking with an ecost refurb, is whether or not UPS will destroy it for you in transit to your home. The refurbs come with a 90-day full P&L warranty from Denon; and bought from a particular online authorized e-seller, comes with a full one-year warranty (for a little bit more in price).

Let's face it, either way (including a brand-new Denon, or any other brand) you can get a turd.

I'm comfortable w/ the 90 day warranty myself, because in my experience with gear over the last 30 years, 'weak' electronic parts take a dump real quick...... no more than 30 days. In most cases, well within a week, and usually far less time than that.

[blackmax2k1]

Originally posted by pnichols
Also, to summarize again some issues re the 3800 - the 3800 plays HDCD unlike the 2900, the 3800 uses Denon's AL24+ processing unlike the 2900, and the 3800's extra weight is most likely at least partially due to the large power supply transformer and various large capacitors that show in interior photos. BTW, does the 2900 handle slide shows from your digital camera and photo CD's with various fades, zooms, etc. like the 3800 does?

You win. The 3800 is the best. It's heavier so it must be better. I don't remember the 3800 playing SACD though. Or having an 8MB buffer to eliminate layer changes. 2900 also has better audio DACS so I don't know how sound could be superior.

[Crunchyriff]

"It's heavier so it must be better."

gimme a break, blackmax. You can justify your purchase and your choice all day long- and you don't need to! YOU have to be happy with it, nobody else does.

The simple fact is that the 2900 is in the middle tier. (just as the 1910, and 1710 is below it. The 3800, 3910 is the upper tier, and the 5900 (now 5910) is king of the Denon line.

Look, if some guy has a 5900 or DV1 (or whatever), I'm not gonna tell him mine is better simply because I own it.... That's asinine. Get real.

I'd be the first to defer to one's superior player. There's no shame in that.

There's also SACD-supporting DVD players that I wouldn't give a boot full of pee for; so just because they play the format does not guarantee superiority. That's a bit immature.

[blackmax2k1]

I just don't understand why people have to go through hoops to get something to work how it should. I bought a brand new 2900 that works great out of the box with no shipping back to Denon to update it. I'm sure the 3800 looks great and is better by a slim margin over the 2900 but is it worth the time and sometimes frustration?

[Crunchyriff]

Added by blackmax:
Or having an 8MB buffer to eliminate layer changes. 2900 also has better audio DACS so I don't know how sound could be superior.

You still at it?? You must really have a complex.

YOURS IS THE BEST.

There, now you can sleep.

Next, please...

[blackmax2k1]

huh? That last post must be invisible.

[umr]

Originally posted by blackmax2k1
You win. The 3800 is the best. It's heavier so it must be better. I don't remember the 3800 playing SACD though. Or having an 8MB buffer to eliminate layer changes. 2900 also has better audio DACS so I don't know how sound could be superior.

It is amazing what a little solder, wire and a spare 2900 can do for a 3800. A fully tweaked 3800.;)

[Marc Alexander]

Originally posted by blackmax2k1
I just don't understand why people have to go through hoops to get something to work how it should. I bought a brand new 2900 that works great out of the box with no shipping back to Denon to update it. I'm sure the 3800 looks great and is better by a slim margin over the 2900 but is it worth the time and sometimes frustration? Why are you participating in this thread then?

[erandmckay]

Originally posted by Crunchyriff
The 3800, 3910 is the upper tier, and the 5900 (now 5910) is king of the Denon line.

Actually, the 9000 is the "real king" (actually, I guess that would be Elvis :D ). Just joking, but I had to throw it in with the way this thread is going. BTW the authorized online seller (whose name appears above) will be out of 3800 until Feb at the earliest :( .

[Marc Alexander]

AFAIK, the 3910 is the replacement for the 2900 (not the 2910, which I believe replaces the 2200). There is no direct replacement for the 3800 (unless there is a 4910 I don't know about). The 2900 is not a lower tiered model.

[blackmax2k1]

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
AFAIK, the 3910 is the replacement for the 2900 (not the 2910). There is no direct replacement for the 3800 (unless there is a 4910 I don't know about).

That's what I thought but I wasn't sure.

[pipe dreams]

I bought a 3800 in Oct 2002, 08/2002 build..10% off full retail price at the time. It's out of warranty now and has started freezing the last few months, also started the drawer open/close prob, but that’s not a big deal. Its got a great picture but that means nothing when its starts freezing. I'm now shopping for a replacement and its not going to be a Denon product.

[pnichols]

pipe dreams,

Your 08/2002 build 3800 most likely did not have the new laser assembly that stops the skipping.

I'd recommend spending the $100+ to get a new lazer assembly put in it (and get the Y/C Delay internally removed at the same time) -> where else you gonna find a player that puts out that great 20 lb-audio (both HDCD and DVD-A ... with AL24 Processing Plus waveform smoothing) while simultaneously delivering 480 progressive PQ via that superb Silicon Image Si504 deinterlacer?

I have to agree with you somewhat, however. Denon blew it with the 3800, as it could have been the market-favorite, hands down, epitomy for a non-SACD but barely affordable high-end DVD player had it not been for it's initial: A) dumb Y/C delay, B) dumb eventual skipping, C) dumb eventual tray closing, and D) the need for the early owners to themselves fix the chroma bug. Those of us who waded through all this stuff were/are rewarded, however. ;)

[Crunchyriff]

I would agree with contentions about the 3800, for an upper-tier player, this thing should be bug-free from the fact-o-ree.

That being said, it looks like Denon was premature in the release of the player. They, however, are not the only ones to have jumped the gun on releasing something before they are perfected.

Detroit has been doing that for years. Now Benz and BMW are doing the same thing...

Yes, I stand corrected, the 9000 is the KING. ( I completely forgot about that one- brain fart!) However, I'm surprised that the 3910 is the 2900's replacement. That just doesn't 'sound right', or make sense at all.

Whatever the case: if this too is also fact, I certainly stand corrected.

Pipedreams- I would do what pnichols suggested- for a very modest fee, you will have your 3800 smackin the ball outta the park.

Just ask yourself what that same amt of $$ spent will get you in a 'replacement' player....

[pnichols]

FWIW, here's what Secrets said in their Benchmark writeup of the 3910 regarding what the 3910 succeeded (- does this mean the same thing as "replaced"? ;) ):

"The Denon DVD-3910 has garnished a lot of excitement from Denon fans. The successor to the very popular DVD-3800, the 3910 ........."

However, IMHO :D , the 3910 was not up to the task of replacing the 3800 cuz the 3800 weighs ~ 2 1/2 lbs more than the 3910 .... hopefully due to bigger caps and transformers in the 3800 chassis.

BTW, prior to the 5910 I consided the DVD-9000 as the best player Denon had ever made, lack of SACD notwithstanding. I guess this now IMHO makes the 3800 the 3rd best.

[NightHawk]

I have an early 3800. I love the video and audio performance and haven't noticed anything wrong. What exactly does Y/C delay look like? I remember using the all the AVIA tests and didn't see anythig wrong there either. It is an unforgiving player however with used, dirty DVDs but never locks up on new ones out of of the package.

[Crunchyriff]

If yours is an 'early' player, you won't have the y/c delay until you fix the dreaded "chroma bug". If you don't see the chroma bug, you have nothing to worry about... that just means it doesn't bother you enough to fix it.

That bug fix brings on the y/c delay, which then can be fixed one of two ways:
1. externally to the player (by running extra specific cable)
2. internally

others here have the nitty-gritty on this.

[lord_loafer]

A lot of confusion in this thread.... basically..... the Denon DVD-3800 was replaced, along with the 2800mk2, in favour of the DVD-2900, which is an upgrade of Audio and Video for both machines.

The 3800 had a very short lifespan and was simply frought with problems and bugs, which is why you find an abundance of them as factory refurbished models, at very good prices. You wouldn't expect these to have much of a problem, but in many cases, they unfortunately do! As Denon service is pretty much staffed by one man in a shed with a screwdriver! (not literally, but might as well be!)

Just my little bit

lord_loafer

[Marc Alexander]

Originally posted by lord_loafer
A lot of confusion in this thread.... basically..... the Denon DVD-3800 was replaced, along with the 2800mk2, in favour of the DVD-2900 That is my understanding. There are some long Denon threads in the archive that indicate this fact.

Audio/video quality between the 2900 and 3800 is of course arguable.

[erandmckay]

Originally posted by lord_loafer
You wouldn't expect these to have much of a problem, but in many cases, they unfortunately do! As Denon service is pretty much staffed by one man in a shed with a screwdriver! (not literally, but might as well be!)

Sad you feel that way, I've had good experience with Denon (and their service). By the way, that's no a shed he's in, but rather an outhouse :D

[mrpergo]

Got my 3800 back from Denon repair depot in NJ on Fri.(not quite a month)
I had to let it warm up for a day because it was riding around in the UPS truck at below 0 temps.
I pulled out the DVB-318 that I was using for a temp and hooked up my baby.Well I fired up the first DVD and the picture was not as sharp as the 318 that was up-converting to 1080i so I was a little concerned because I had Denon do the y/c mod while they had this thing in the shop.Then it dawned on me that it was back to factory default.I went into setup and it was set for 4:3.I reset everything back up and calibrated and I must say this machine is more beautiful then I remembered.Just gorgeous :)
The drawer works like it suppose to and the picture and DVD-Audio is fantastic.I even think they replaced the case because I had a banged in corner when I sent this thing in and its not there anymore.Who knows.I'm just happy to get this baby back and working better then before.
This will hold me until HD-DVD and then some.

[ZZtop]

Originally posted by lord_loafer
A lot of confusion in this thread.... basically..... the Denon DVD-3800 was replaced, along with the 2800mk2, in favour of the DVD-2900, which is an upgrade of Audio and Video for both machines.

The 3800 had a very short lifespan and was simply frought with problems and bugs, which is why you find an abundance of them as factory refurbished models, at very good prices. You wouldn't expect these to have much of a problem, but in many cases, they unfortunately do! As Denon service is pretty much staffed by one man in a shed with a screwdriver! (not literally, but might as well be!)

Just my little bit

lord_loafer

The 2900 may have been an upgrade to the 3800 for video, but it did not work out to have better video in the end vs a 3800 with all the factory updates.. The 3800 has a definitely noticeably better image quality than the 2900 due to a unqiue property in the signal wave . Its not an earthshatteing difference, but it is there.

Kris Deering found iwhy with test equipment. People wondered why the 3800 had a sharper picture as some people feel the 2900 is a bit soft. This unusual signal wave property is supposed to be the reason.

[ncsercs]

Originally posted by Reaunt
I just read this entire thread. eCOST is still showing that they have units available...

As of tonight........

None on their site.

[pnichols]

ZZtop,

Do you have any idea what Denon repair did to stop your drawer from occasionally closely by itself?

My 3800 eventually started doing this a little too. I'm debating whether to tear open my player and take a look to see if I can fix it myself, but I'd like to know first what Denon repair does to resolve it. I hate to pack it up and send it in just for this, as I've had the other upgrades done already.

[lel4866]

Does anyone have the upgrade CD from denon with the firmware upgrades on it (US firmware upgrades, not UK)?

[mrpergo]

Phil I talked with the repair tech in regards to any preventive maintenance or a fix the owner could do before it gets to the point of it won't stay open at all and he said there was nothing but sending it in for repair.He did say after it was repaired it would last for many years to come.
As far as work and parts for mine is as follows:
cleaned/checked/tested all functions
replaced all parts listed
Installed Y/C delay mod
Parts listed:PN 9KC2A074B Trav/Mecha(HOP1200R)
Parts 111.79
labor 75.00
shipping 15.00
Total $201.79
My fault for waiting till it was out of warranty.I just didn't think the drawer would get worse.
Oh well I got her back and she's better then new:)

lel4866 I do have the disks and the instructions that DenonJeff sent me for the firmware update.I just have to dig them out.

[ZZtop]

Originally posted by pnichols
ZZtop,

Do you have any idea what Denon repair did to stop your drawer from occasionally closely by itself?

My 3800 eventually started doing this a little too. I'm debating whether to tear open my player and take a look to see if I can fix it myself, but I'd like to know first what Denon repair does to resolve it. I hate to pack it up and send it in just for this, as I've had the other upgrades done already.

Sorry, I don't , to be honest going over the codes listing the updates, one of mine wasn't as new as I heard it should be. However, I was told the delay on repairing all of these when they go in, is usually the drawer.

The technician was very nice, and said that 9 out of 10 times they are waiting on those.

I must admit I love the machine a great deal, I would never have bought my 2910 if I had gotten this first. My 2910 is up for sale.

I am still trying to determine if miy 3800 has the y/c delay fix.

[erandmckay]

Originally posted by ZZtop
I must admit I love the machine a great deal, I would never have bought my 2910 if I had gotten this first. My 2910 is up for sale.

If you ever choose to sell your 3800, let me know:D (can't get them on eCost anymore :( !)

[mrpergo]

Dakmart has them listed on the front page.That is where I bought mine over a year ago.They have a 1yr warranty.The first 90days is Denon and the balance is covered by Dakmart
They are an authorized dealer.

[lel4866]

mrpergo - any way I could borrow that CD & instructions? Be glad to pay shipping both ways. Or, any way you could send me the iso image?

[mrpergo]

lel4866 the files are burnt on cd-r's.I've copied the files to my hd.I'd be glad to Email them to you along with the instructions then you could burn them back to cd and install them on your machine.The 2 files that are on disk 1 are 2mb each as long as your Email server accepts this size.
PM me with and addy and I'll get them off to you.

[erandmckay]

Originally posted by mrpergo
Dakmart has them listed on the front page.That is where I bought mine over a year ago.They have a 1yr warranty.The first 90days is Denon and the balance is covered by Dakmart
They are an authorized dealer.

When I contacted them, they said they didn't have any either:(

[Marc Alexander]

Finally having to send my unit in for repair. Today the progressive video output went berzerk (green horizontal lines/noise), then my display totally lost sync. After re-initializing, progressive out came back...but still get occasional green lines. Interlaced component out is fine.

I will go ahead and get my disc drawer and laser pickup fixed/replaced too (my player came with Y/C fixed).

[DennyL]

I just picked up a 3800 that was recently back at Denon for a month for 'firmware upgrades". Does anybody think that they went ahead and fixed the y/c delay at the same time?

Also, should I run this thing in 16:9 into my 70XBR950 or let the tv do all the scaling and run it at 4:3? UMR?

I will A/B this with my existing Panasonic RP-91 running 480i and see what happens.

[umr]

Denny,

I believe I use the following settings with it set to 16:9 for the TV. I hope you like the player after all the effort. You will need to set the TV to Full Mode for 16:9 and Normal for 4:3 movies.

Squeeze Mode - Off
Progressive - Mode 1
Video Mode - Film
Video Out - Progressive

You might want to read these for more info about this player if you have not already.

http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/HardwareReviews/Denon3800/Denon3800.html

http://www.geocities.com/denon3800/

[pnichols]

DennyL,

"Also, should I run this thing in 16:9 into my 70XBR950 or let the tv do all the scaling and run it at 4:3?"

You DO NOT want to run 4X3 from your 3800 into your display. You probably meant to ask: "Do I want to run interlaced or progressive out of my 3800 into my display?"

The answer to this is - wherever the best deinterlacing operation is done (3800 or display) determines whether you feed your display interlaced or deinterlaced (progressive) from your 3800. The 3800's video strength (.... its also pretty good with analog audio, BTW) is in it's internal deinterlacing and follow-on analog video processing that drives it's component (YPrPb) output when it's in progressive output mode.

Probably your display's deintelacing of 480 DVD signals is not as good as that going on inside the 3800, so running your 3800 as progressive SHOULD provide the best image on your display.

Try it both ways with your 3800 and very carefully, using several DVDs, draw you own conclusion and run your 3800 permanently in either interlaced or progressive output mode depending upon what your tests and eyes tell you. Please keep in mind that you should calibrate your display twice (..or use two separate inputs to it if it has two component inputs that are individually calibratible) for each mode of the 3800, as you must make your decision based on your 3800-display combination being optimized for both situations, before you decide. Also, some may not agree, but I suggest using high quality component cabling that is as short as you can get by with between your 3800 and the display. ;)

[DennyL]

Thanks for your response, guys.

Actually, I was wondering if the 3800 should run 16:9 or not. I certainly hope that the deinterlacer in the 3800 is superior to that in the 70xbr950. That is why I bought it. Thus I was not contemplating sending 480i into the TV; I have been doing that with the RP-91 which I think is about the best 480i solution ( it's 480p mode a lacking).

I am hoping that the color, resolution and deinterlacing from the 3800 will be superior to the RP-91 combination. So many people ask what to DVD to use with this TV that I wanted to run the experiment. I have applied the tweeks so it should be interesting.

I will take a look both ways and see what the actual differences are, keep whichever looks best, sell the other.

[DennyL]

I spoke to Denon service today in NJ. They stated that the laser pickup and transport assembly on my unit (build date April 2002) had been replaced, teh frimware upgraded, but that the y/c delay had not been installed.

The technician I spoke to said that the y/c delay part was no longer available and had no ETA as to when they were going to come in. He thought that they would not be available going forward and that calling back later to check on availability would not be fruitful.

[mrpergo]

Denny when I sent mine in it took a couple weeks to get the part for the y/c delay and I just got mine back the end of Jan.You would think they would order some kind of quantity and not just a per unit order.Maybe you could contact someone with a little more authority in the company.
Before I had the fix done I didn't really notice a problem but when I got it back and re-calibrated everything its much more detailed.
Hope they can get the part for you.You don't really know its broke till ya see it fixed:D
It's worth the wait.

[ZICK]

Checking in to say that my 3800 is working just fine.
Did some fine tuning to the unit after my PE730 was ISF calibrated in Jan. and the picture quality is great. It's going to be hard to upgrade this unit for a DVI output machine. $$$
As far as the Y/C issue, if you are getting a good picture colors then you don't have a Y/C problem.
The problem with these refurb machines was a production run of 2 months NOT the complete line!!!
I just don't understand the idiots that get on threads just to bloviate?! Maybe if they had a clue, then they are worth responding to.
Try reading http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/HardwareReviews/Denon3800/Denon3800.html.
For those that have not done so, read Denon's DVD3800/9000 setup proceedures.

[pbmax542]

a working version of the above link
http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/HardwareReviews/Denon3800/Denon3800.html

[Marc Alexander]

Originally posted by ZICK
As far as the Y/C issue, if you are getting a good picture colors then you don't have a Y/C problem.
The problem with these refurb machines was a production run of 2 months NOT the complete line!!! I'm not sure I'm on board with that statement. You really need the AVIA test pattern to determine whether you have Y/C error or not. It is not immediately noticeable as it generally just softens the PQ a bit.

[pbmax542]

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
I'm not sure I'm on board with that statement. You really need the AVIA test pattern to determine whether you have Y/C error or not. It is not immediately noticeable as it generally just softens the PQ a bit.

I agree.

[ZICK]

Stand corrected, thanks. I assumed most of us use AVIA.

[pbmax542]

I just had my first experience with the drawer automatically closing issue on Friday. It only happened once, but it's scaring me. Is there anything that I can do to keep it from getting worse?

Also, I saw the chroma bug while watching the movie "Willard." I didn't think that it was possible to see the chroma bug once the new firmware had been installed. If anyone else wants to test out this movie, I saw it during the scene where Willard was in the store looking for rat traps. Look at the red lettering on one of the products on the shelf.

This DVD player produces the best standard def PQ I have seen. It just surprised me when I saw the bug pop up again, and on a movie which had to do with infestations. Maybe I should call the Orkin Man.

[mrpergo]

pbmax542 when I sent my unit in for the drawer and y/c delay I called and talked to the tech that was doing the work on my 3800.I asked if there was some preventive maintenance or something the customer could do when the drawer issue first starts to prevent us from having to send the unit in for repair and he told me there was nothing that could be done.I also asked how long it would be before I could expect this to happen again and he told me it would be many,many years.Who knows :)
Somewhere in this thread not long ago I believe someone fixed their own.
I used to pull the drawer out a little and it seemed to help for awhile.
If your still under warranty send it in now.I waited until my warranty was up to send mine in because I figured I could live with the drawer issue on occasion.Then after awhile it wouldn't stay open at all,you had to grab the ###### :)
I haven't seen any signs of the chroma bug.I don't have Willard to check it out either maybe someone else will be able to check it for you.

[pbmax542]

My warranty expired in January. At least I got it in for the new laser, and the Y/C fix. Since I don't have to worry about voiding my warranty, I may just open it up, and give it a good cleaning. I can't go another month without my player. I will of coarse wait for the problem to become serious before I break her open.

[skvinson]

I have a 3800 built in Dec. 2002. That should mean it has the new laser assembly. But, I have occasional freezes. I thought the old laser was the cause of that problem. Am I mistaken? The drawer also closes on its own. I don't know about the Y/C delay. I'm going to check that tomorrow.

I bought the unit used on Audiogon, so I don't have a warranty. I would rather get it fixed that buy anything out there now. I would like to know how much $$ to expect. If the laser doesn't need replacing, then the repair should be less than the $200 figure I've seen in this thread. But, if the laser is ok, why is it freezing? Also, how necessary is it to send the unit back to Denon? There are two authorized service centers near me. Saving the shipping would be nice.

Thanks!

[Marc Alexander]

[QUOTE=skvinson]I have a 3800 built in Dec. 2002. That should mean it has the new laser assembly.[/QUOTE]Where did you glean that info? I'm pretty sure all these US built units could be subject to the issue. I believe mine was Oct. 2002. It also ran me $200 for the laser and drawer repairs (I also had a progressive output issue they repaired).

[skvinson]

Throughout this thread (e.g., post #134), Sept. 2002 has been stated as the time when 3800s began shipping with the new laser assemblies. I thought that had been confirmed by someone at Denon. I also remember reading though, that people who had their laser assembly replaced still had issues. What I'm wondering, is the laser assembly the cause of the freezing problem? If so, was there ever any explanation why the new assemblies were having problems?

[Marc Alexander]

If the unit you bought was a refurb...it did not get a new laser. Are the discs hotter than normal when you eject them?

[skvinson]

I don't know if the unit was a refurb. I bought it privately. But the build date is Dec. 2002. According to what has been posted on this thread (and others), it should have come from the factory with the upgraded laser assembly.

It used to heat up dvds all the time - very hot. I don't notice that as much now. But like I said, it does freeze up (even without the heat issue).

[pbmax542]

Does anyone know if the 3800 will convert PAL discs to NTSC? I ordered a disc online, and just realized it was PAL. I don't want to go through the trouble of converting it on my computer if I don't have to.

[Crunchyriff]

No, it won't..and according to Denon, doing a firmware upgrade to enable multi-region will immediately void your warranty. (trust me, I asked them directly about this as I want multi-region; and I got a VERY direct response)

As soon as my warranty period is up, I'm doing a firmware upgrade that will allow M/R, ( I want to view some Japanese-only DVD's) but I don't know that it will enable PAL.

[Marc Alexander]

[QUOTE=pbmax542]Does anyone know if the 3800 will convert PAL discs to NTSC?[/QUOTE]It will play PAL discs with the multiregion fimware (if you have a display that accepts PAL). It will not convert between PAL and NTSC.