Silver Fabrics

[MTyson]

Has anyone here tested any silver fabrics? If so, what kind and what were the results?

Right now I am using a metallic silver PVC screen that has quite a high gain. It gives a nice picture, but there are a few flaws. There is the beam reflection a the bottom of the screen (I shoot from a table and the bottom of the screen is about 6-10 inches above the projector), but that dissappears when I sit down. My eyes aren't level with the middle of the screen either so this alos helps that glare dissappear.

The blacks are pretty good, not quite as good as the grey screen I painted (I think this is only because of the high gain), but better than the white. The whites are brighter on the silver screen than on my white screen. The colors are pretty punchy too. Screen door is more obvious, but that's a non issue, because I don't sit too close.

I think I might be suffering from hot spots though. I'm not totally sure exactly what hot spots look like (I imagined them differently if that's what I'm experiencing). The screen seems to be near perfect, but on my 9+ foot diagonal 16:9 screen the bottom foot and half I'd say is a bit brighter when darks are shown. It's more noticeable on blacks. When someone is wearing a black shirt or jacket on a medium shot (this is when it's most obvious) it looks a bit brighter on the bottom part of the screen.

In that specific area the blacks just look lighter. At first I thought maybe it's just the film lights causing this, but then I thought maybe it was a reflection from my table or computer monitor (turns out no), so I then I thought maybe this it was a "hot spot".

No where else on the screen does this ever occur though. Is this a hot spot or is light probably bouncing off of my computer/dinner table (positioned right under the screen) and back onto the screen causing a bright area?

If anyone else has tried any other fabrics let me know the results. The screen I'm using is pretty good. There would only be a couple things I'd change if I could. I'd either lower the gain a bit or make it darker silver.

I'm going to be doing some more fabric experimentations soon. I keep thinking some sort black and silver combination would probably be a good combination.

[scottyb]

Where did you get the material?

Scott

[MTyson]

http://www.mjtrends.com/silverpvc.asp

I got 3 yards and it's 56" wide, so I folded (Should've cut, but I wanted to get it up and test it real quick) it to 16:9.

Click on my gallery and you can see some screenshots of the silver screen. Only 2 are using the silver screen in high ambient light near the screen.

I put up a white poster board for comparison to the silver in ambient light. The pictures would be much better if I had a decent camera, but unfortunetely I have to use my camcorder that has bad low light capabilities (from where I was shooting from had low light, but there are two lights on near the screen, one a 60 watt bulb 3-4 feet infront of the screen and a large florescent light 4 feet to the right).

[DAT]

MTyson,

I bought some silver satin from Joann fabrics to see what it would look like after reading about the silverstar. The sheen on it made it hotspot, but the reverse side actually looked pretty good. It was more of a grey screen however and not silver. The blacks were better, but whites worse, but not by much. I preferred the back of the satin to my blackout cloth screen. I think the PVC you used looks interesting though. I tried to look at the gallery but the site is not up now.

Darren.

[MTyson]

Are you projecting from below the screen (or ceiling or shooting dead on right into the middle of the screen?)?

I found that the silver PVC is unwatchable if I project in the middle of the PVC screen. There is a huge glare of the projector beam right in the middle if I do. As long as the bottom of the screen is about 6-12 inches above the projector the beam will be on the bottom of the screen and disappear when I sit down. My entire head is just above the bottom of the screen when I sit down, but once I get up I can see the glare. No big deal, because I don't plan on standing while watching something and even if I do I simply avoid staring at the bottom middle of the screen.

I was thinking of getting the silver satin, that's why I ask how you're projecting (also, how many lumens is your pj? I have an X1 which is about 500 in film mode I believe). I think if you project head on it makes the negative effects like 10X worse (at least this is true with the PVC).

By the way, I did the exact same thing with mine. The reverse side is white, but you can see the silver shade through it. I thought it might yield great results, but I was wrong. I folded just that side so I could view both the silver and white/with silver shade simulaneously. The silver had noticeably darker blacks and just looked much better to me.

I'm looking EVERYWHERE for fabrics though. I think I'm obsessed. Everyone in the house seems to be perfectly happy with the silver screen I'm using now though. I just want to find something with a bit less gain so the blacks will be a bit darker and the reflection at the bottom will diminish. Also, if it's hot spotting that I might be seeing only near the bottom I'd be happy to get rid of it too. It's not too distracting though. It always seems to bee near the bottom middle where it occurs, and it only seems noticeable during scenes that have black or dark clothes in medium close ups.

I'm finding all kinds of interesting fabrics, but I have a hard time deciding which ones to go for.

[eameres]

I tried some silver fabric from dazian called "nuggetcloth" that was a complete joke. It was more like really textured silver lame.

If this PVC were 60+ inches wide, I'd be all over it. Maybe I'm going to have to settle for 54" until I crack the mysteries of silver paints and their application!

[MTyson]

Well, I went out and bought some thin black, very translucent, 100% polyester fabric. It's almost like a net material. I haven't tested it for very long, but so far it looks very good.

It made the blacks blacker and everything looks nice and rich. It seem to not take away too much from the whites either because of it being net like material and the silver behind it has a high gain. After a short time with it I played an "Angel" season 2 dvd (which is a very dark show) and I hung this material over half of the silver screen and the blacks were noticeably better.

It's possible that I may be done looking for screens now. This fabric cost me only $1.00/yard. I'm only going to buy one more thing for testing and I may be completely done. I will get a translucent black polyester fabric that is not net like material and see how it compares. I'm going to watch some more stuff with it now. Later.

[eameres]

MTyson,

Since the gallery has been down for a while, can you post those screen shots as an attachment to a message? I'm dying to see what your screen looks like with and without the black fabric.

Eric.

[MTyson]

I'll try to see if I can get one made, but I doubt it'll work. My camera is just ROTTEN for taking screenshots. It's fantastic for digital video recording, but just flat out horrible for trying to take screenshots. I may have to work some miracles, but I'll see if I can somehow pull it off.

[rolast]

MTyson, what does the fabric overlay do to the viewing cone?

[MTyson]

From what I can see, not much.

[Dragoon2B]

MTyson,

Have you tried spraying on some clear matte laquer over the PVC material. I have seen that technique used to cut down hotspotting on the Rustoleum Silver Paint solutions. Perhaps it will cut down the hotspotting on this stuff too.

[MTyson]

No I haven't, but I was wondering if there was something that could be used for that purposed. Thanks for the info.

Honestly, I now have no issues with hot spotting when I sit down. When I stand up there is a little beam reflection at the very bottom of the screen and it just isn't very distracting, because when I sit down it pretty much disappears.

I have some new materials on the way. I'm looking forward to seeing how they turn out. One is light silver and the other just silver.

Has anyone heard of Dalite's Silver Matte screen with a gain of only 1.1? I wonder how good this screen would be.

[miklink]

very interesting!!!

let us know what other fabrics you have found.

too bad gallery is down:(

[eameres]

Do you think this material would be bad for overhead projector applications? Buying a <$10 can of paint is one thing, but this would require a whopping $50 investment to do right...

[barryecohen]

Originally posted by eameres
Do you think this material would be bad for overhead projector applications? Buying a <$10 can of paint is one thing, but this would require a whopping $50 investment to do right...

This is my concern as well, and I was wondering if the black sheer fabric tamed the glare / hot spotting MTyson noted when he was standing or projecting in the middle of the screen as noted below.

Originally posted by MTyson
I found that the silver PVC is unwatchable if I project in the middle of the PVC screen. There is a huge glare of the projector beam right in the middle if I do. As long as the bottom of the screen is about 6-12 inches above the projector the beam will be on the bottom of the screen and disappear when I sit down. My entire head is just above the bottom of the screen when I sit down, but once I get up I can see the glare. No big deal, because I don't plan on standing while watching something and even if I do I simply avoid staring at the bottom middle of the screen.

[MTyson]

I can only recommed the PVC for table mounting, but I have never tried celing mounting.

For table mounting the bottom of the screen should be about 6-10 inches above the projector to keep the glare at the very bottom of the screen (I'm guessing if you tried this with ceiling it may work). I tried lifting the projector in the air and aiming from different directions and they were mostly unwatchable. I didn't go as high as the ceiling though. I tried a head on projection (which puts the glare on the middle of the screen), which was completely unwatchable.

I recomment table mounting, but I can see how ceiling mounting could work too.

When I stand I can see the hot spotting (which is not very bothersome to me) pretty much on the very bottom of the screen. I do not find it that distracting though since it's at the bottom. When I sit down it pretty much vanishes. The fabric did help a little, but I really didn't find it all that bad in the first place. Also, the screen seems to have a wide viewing area even with the fabric. You can sit off to the side and still get a good picture.

[barryecohen]

I've got a Bachelors degree in Photography so I have a pretty good understanding of light and reflection. This is a pretty simple demo of the effects you may expect with a highly reflective screen like the PVC. Think about glare / hot spotting this way. Get a flashlight and a friend and stand in front of a mirror ( you can do this fully clothed ;) ). Stand directly in front of the mirror and turn on the flash light and point it right at the mirror, lots of glare ( like holding a PJ in front of a highly reflective screen and looking straight at it). Now move to one side a couple of feet and point the flash light at the mirror, you will notice there is no glare ( like sitting and looking up at a screen with a table mounted projector). Now have your friend stay at the one side pointing the flash light at the mirror while you go to the other side as you pass the front of the mirror you may notice a little bit of glare (like standing with a table mounted PJ), but as you go to the other side you will see a lot more glare as the light is reflected right back at your eyes ( I'm afraid that this will be the result achieved while sitting in front of a highly reflective screen with a ceiling mounted PJ).

That's why I'd like to find a fabric with some sheen but not to much and it's hard not having this stuff available to sample before dropping $40 - $50 because by the time you buy all those different materials you could of just gone out and bought a screen from a screen mfr. It is also why I come to this forum to gain the knowledge of the experience of others experiments, so thanks MTyson, and others for trying this stuff and sharing your findings with the rest of us.

All the Best, Barry

[MTyson]

No problem barryechohen. We all want the best image out of our projectors without having to drop more than the cost of the projector for a screen (that is just ridiculous). After I'm finished trying different fabrics I will sell the rest (I will lose a little, but oh well). I'm highly impressed with my current screen right now though. We were watching some DVDs last night and I kept thinking how good the image looked.

Glare is absolutely no problem now really. You can pretty much sit anywhere and it should be ok (as long as you are sitting). I'm looking forward to trying the new fabrics and see how they turn out. Also, there are a ton of fabric stores online that will send free samples.

Peace

[Dragoon2B]

I thought "why not?" and went ahead and ordered three yards of the Silver PVC material. It should be here by the end of next week. Once I have it mounted to my frame, I will report how it looks with a ceiling mounted DLP projector.

[MTyson]

Yeah, you could always get rid of it on Ebay for a small loss if you don't like it. I'm guessing since your ceiling mounting the pj the top of the screen should be 6-10 below the projector. Although, I'm not sure if sitting down will greatly reduce the hot spot unless your table mounting the PJ. Hope it works out. If you want to increase the blacks definetely get some of that cheap black polyester screendoor/net like fabric. It lessens the screendoor effect that the silver enhances while giving you very good blacks even with some ambient light.

One thing you will definetely want to do with this material, and that is get as many wrinkles out as possible because they will reflect light if they're not straightened out the most they can be. I have mine held with tacs, so it's nice and stretched out.

Good luck!

[barryecohen]

Originally posted by Dragoon2B
I thought "why not?" and went ahead and ordered three yards of the Silver PVC material. It should be here by the end of next week. Once I have it mounted to my frame, I will report how it looks with a ceiling mounted DLP projector.

I'm anxiously awaiting your report. Though today I tried the back of my Levelor roll-up shade, the side I've been using is matte the back has a sheen to it, and I noticed quit a bit of glare. The screen is hanging free on the roller and has a few waves in it and these seemed to enhance the glare so maybe if stretched over a frame and possibly angled slightly the glare would disappear. Anyway I hope the silver PVC works out for you, if it does I'll definitely give it a try too.

Barry

[Dragoon2B]

The silver material is still not here. I guess it is taking some time getting through customs (I live in Canada). Unfortunately, I am away all next week. So it will probably not be until the last week of October before I can report on how the material looks with a ceiling mounted PJ. Sorry, hope you can wait...

[barryecohen]

Well, I couldn't exactly wait :p . Friday after work I went to the local Rag Shop and picked up 3 different Silver/Grey Satin Fabrics for less then $25. Next I went to an art supply store and picked up some stretcher bar for a 54x72 frame. I draped the fabrics loosely over the roller of my roll-up window shade and the fabric that seemed to work the best was the lightest of the 3. So I stretched it over the frame and began calibration with a THX optimizer. Immediately I noticed that there was a lot of light passing through the material, so soon I'll need to re-mount it over the stretched vinyl. I watched a few movies on it as is though, and was pleased with the results. Screen-door was way down, I could get with-in 6' and not see the effect. When watching at 10' on the white vinyl, screen-door was noticeable. The bars at the top and bottom of the screen were darker than with the white screen. I'll probably order some of that silver PVC as my results with this shiny material were positive, and I didn't get the hot-spotting I expected.

[Dragoon2B]

I finally got the material. First of all: this stuff is really shiny! I was very surprised. It was shipped to me folded up and I was initially concerned because the folds looked like the PVC part was damaged. It didn't turn out to be a problem though, because this stuff is really stretchy, so all of the blemishes got stretched out and you can't see them. I have it on my wall now, and there is definately a major hot spot right in the middle of the screen. As it stands now, this material is not suitable for a ceiling mounted PJ. The other problem is that it is really susceptable to other light sources. Any light source in the area will reflect. It is too bad, because the blacks and colors are awesome!

I did try a small sample of flat laquer on a scrap piece and it looked like it removed some if not all of the hotspotting. My next step is to spray the whole screen to see if it works. If it works, I will be putting it up on the wall permanently. I will write back when I have completed the coat of laquer.

[Dragoon2B]

Ok, I have now added the clear matte laquer and the hotspotting is virtually gone! The center of the screen is a bit brighter than the edges, but it is not too noticable. The reflections from other light sources are gone too.

The image is a bit granier than my blackout cloth screen, but has way more contrast, better blacks, and much brighter colors. DVDs have much better contrast.

I will interchange both screens over the next couple of days and decide which one to keep. The next step is to try it during the day. The reason I tried this in the first place was so that I could watch stuff during the day and have better black levels.

Overall, I think it was worth the investment. I think I could have found similar material locally for less cash though.

[clueless]

How is the viewing cone with the PVC material?

[MTyson]

The viewing cone PERFECT. Virtually any angle is bright an clear, even with my black net overlay. This screen definetely improves blacks with the translucent black overlay. A LOT!

Hey Dragoon2B, if you try the 2 screens with lights on or during the day with a black translucent overlay you most likely will not be able to choose the other screen. The picture looks too good with ambient light and has decent blacks even with ambient light if you have the overlay. No kidding.

[MTyson]

The reason this screen is so good with ambient light and still has good blacks is because:

1: The silver is high gain and already has incredibly bright whites by itself.
2: When light is not on the part of the screen the translucent black overlay makes the screen appear darker while still able to deliver good whites.
3: A white screen will wash out way before this one will. When the white begins to wash out noticeably the silver will still be pretty bright.

So, if you are looking for a screen that is excellent in ambient light than I highly recommend my combination. It also looks fantastic at night (don't forget that overlay for EVEN better blacks).

It's best for table mounting, but if you use if for ceiling mounting than try the clear matte laquer to get rid of the hot spotting. The only hot spot I ever had that was noticeable was at the very bottom middle (fairly small. I table mount). Once I sit down it disappeared and the black overlay helps to with that. No issue at all for me.

PS: This is also a VERY attractive looking screen. It just flat-out looks very nice. Much cooler looking screen than white screens.

[rogo]

I don't think I get this.

You are taking some material like stockings and stretching it in front of this silver stuff?

What is the gain, would you guesstimate?

What are the ambient-light characteristics of this screen vs. a typical white screen?

Mark

[kretschmers]

MTyson: What kind of projector are you using? Where did you get the black material and what is it called? Do you think that the silver fabric / flat clear / black fabric combination will allow for ceiling mounting without any hot spotting?

Steve

[MTyson]

I'm not sure if it's quite like stockings, but I guess it is similar. I think the holes are a little bigger, but still smaller than screendoor holes. I'll have to go back to wal-mart and find oout what it is called. I originally intended on using a very thin, black, translucent polyester fabric, but they didn't carry any of that. So, I got the net like fabric. It's like a net fabric with extremely tiny holes. I looks like a very small holed black screen door that is very flexible.

I'm not sure how much gain the screen has, but I know that after matte white washes out (when there is light) the silver screen is still quite visible.
So, I'd say it has a high gain, but I can't say how much (don't know how to judge). The one flaw is the screen is pretty reflective so lights will reflect a little off of the screen, but it's more noticeable when there isn't an image. This is EASILY taken care of though. You can either shade the side of the light that is facing the screen or get some clear matte laquer that Dragoon2B has. He says it works great to remove the hot spots (if you are ceiling mounting).

Go to my gallery (only one of them has the overlay though). Keep in mind that my camera is a digital camcorder (very bad at screenshots). I'll try to get some more with the black overlay.

[MTyson]

kretschmers,

I'm using an Infocus X1. I got the black material from Wal-Mart at $1.00/yard. I'm not sure what it's called though. Next time I go I'll try to find out. I am pretty sure it is made of polyester though.

Currently, I only use the silver/black overlay combination. I haven't gotten around to use the clear matte laquer yet, but Dragoon2B has and he said he it helped out a lot with the hot spot. The reason I haven't tried this yet is because the only hot spot I have is at the very bottom of the screen (I table mount) and when I sit down it disappears. The only real reason I would use the matte laquer (for me, since I table mount) is to get rid of light reflections from my living room and kitchen lights when I turn them on. Dragoon2B said it helps get rid of the light reflections (so does shading the side of the bulb that is facing the screen). If you're ceiling mounting that you'd have NO choice but to try the laquer, because the the hot spot without it will be BAD.

Thanks!

[MTyson]

Honestly, I would prefer to try some thin black translucent polyester material instead of the net material, but it was all they had. I think the translucent polester might yield better results. If I find any I'll post my results.

[Dragoon2B]

For those of you who have ceiling mounted PJ, the clear matte laquer is a MUST. The screen is absolutely horrible without it. The laquer also removes the reflections. The glare was so bad initially that I almost threw it out before even trying the laquer. I was pleasantly surprised after spaying it on, though. Major improvement.

Like MTyson, I am really impressed with this screen material. During the day, it is at least twice as visible as my blackout cloth screen. It is also really stretchy. I think a screen height of 60" could easily be achieved. Maybe even 65".

I tried taking some digital photos of the two screens in action, but the light levels on my camera kept changing from shot to shot.

I am going to try to find some of this black netting this weekend and give it a try. Maybe it will take some of the noise out.

kretschmers: Ceiling mount is possible with this screen as long as you coat it with some clear flat laquer. The black netting will probably make it even better.

[Malignant]

So mike and dragoon you guys are using the same screen setup now? Let me get this straight

1. You use a silver fabric (can i get details on it)

2. You lay the black polyester/see thru on top of the silver?

3. Use some matte laquer (what is it?) on the black screen?

Thanks guys, im getting my x1 this friday and only thought about using a blackout cloth. Initially im table mounting but will wall mount it later on.

[eameres]

Originally posted by Dragoon2B
It is also really stretchy. I think a screen height of 60" could easily be achieved. Maybe even 65".


Really? So you think this could work out for a 61" x 108" screen? That sounds like a lot of stretching!

Eric.

[gambit]

Originally posted by MTyson
kretschmers,

I'm using an Infocus X1. I got the black material from Wal-Mart at $1.00/yard. I'm not sure what it's called though. Next time I go I'll try to find out. I am pretty sure it is made of polyester though.


I think the material referred to here is tulle. You can sort of see it here, though they don't give a closeup of the material. It's mainly used for crafts and making ribbons/bows. At least that's what my wife uses it for.

Tulle at Joann.com (http://www.joann.com/search/search_results.jhtml;$sessionid$R12VGYAAAATWSP4SY5FRIHR50LD2UEPO?CATID=3&keywords=tulle&_requestid=80392)

[Dragoon2B]

Malignant: Any type of clear flat laquer will do. Most hardware stores have it in the spray paint section. Just make sure it is flat. Look for the cap that is clear but a bit frosty and that is a bit rough to the touch. A link to the retailer for this material is at the beginning of the thread.


eameres: It should stretch that much. The material is actually 56" wide non stretched. I put the stuff up quickly on my old screen with staples just to check it out, and not thinking, put a staple 7" in from the edge. My new screen is 54" wide, and I had no problem stretching the material so that the staple holes were off the display area.

[MTyson]

Malignant, you put the laquer on the silver and then you can put the overlay. I am not currently using the laquer, but I may try it. I am only using the silver and the black net like overlay with table mounting.

If anyone else out wants to try this I'd be interested in hearing results with a translucent black polyester overlay instead of the black net like fabric. That was what I originally planned to use as the overly, but the net stuff was all I could find.


Gambit, I believe you are correct. The material is tulle.

Again though, if anyone can find and try a thin black translucent polyester fabric as the overlay instead than post the results. That's the type of fabric I would've preferred to use as my overlay, but I could only find it online.

[rogo]

Where did you find it online?

[Dragoon2B]

http://www.mjtrends.com/silverpvc.asp

[rogo]

I meant the overlay material MTyson refers to, not the fabric itself.

[MTyson]

Rogo, the black "tulle" overlay can be found here:

http://www.joann.com/search/search_results.jhtml;$sessionid$R12VGYAAAATWSP4SY5FRIHR50LD2UEPO?CATID=3&keywords=tulle&_requestid=80392

I'm not 100% sure, but I think they only sell in bulks, so they may only sell the entire roll. I got mine for $1.00/yard at Wal-Mart.

The other black overlay I originally intended on getting before I found the tulle fabric was something like this (except polester and MUCH cheaper):

https://www.dazian.com/cgi-bin/page.pl?action=show_style&style_id=154&group_id=

[rogo]

I have to say that I am impressed by this "nutty" project and would be intrigued to try it out. :)

[BrokenCrank]

and have already ordered the silver PVC. My X1 is ceiling mounted so I will definitely be ready with some flat, or matte, clear paint. I may even try to get some tulle from JoAnne if it is available. It will probably be a week or two, but I'll post it here when I'm done!

[AVWERKS]

This look interesting I must say, instead of spraying a flat laquer how about using some fine steel wool? The silverstar sample has no sheen to it and roughing up the surface might eliminate the hot spot?

[BrokenCrank]

But more in the short axis than the long :(

I built a 74.75" x 42" frame, and the stuff wouldn't make the distance! I shortened it to 72" x 40.5" and it just barely made it with 2 yds of fabric.

The picture is incredibly bright, but the highly reflective nature of the surface causes hotspotting with my ceiling mounted pj, and from lamps situated in the room. I will try the matte clear paint and report back (haven't been able to find any yet) on the results.

I am convinced that silver is the way to go in my situation (X1 pj in small multi-purpose room...ie. ambient light)...

[MTyson]

One thing I noticed. I was watching T3 (in 2.35:1) and since my tulle overlay doesn't cover the last 2.5-3 inches of the silver screen I was able to compare the "black bars" of the silver with and without the tulle.

The "black bar" with the tulle overlay was easily 10-20 shades darker than the silver that it did not cover. It looked black. plain and simple. Not grey, black. I had my brightness at about 69-71.

[rogo]

How about doing this, MTyson...

Put up Avia with the IRE bars ramp (the discrete bars 0 IRE, 10 IRE, 20 IRE, etc.) and tell us how dark the bars look in comparison... In other words, "the 20 IRE bar on the overlay portion is as dark as the 0 IRE portion on the uncovered area."

Or whatever the real story is. It'd be interesting to know that your blackest black (0 IRE) without overlay is only as black as, say, the 10, 20 or 30 or whatever it is.

Mark

[Further]

I also find this thread extremely interesting. The difference between making a screen by painting it and just substituting different materials is HUGE, and yet the results do not seem to be so different.

I have a ceiling-mounted X1 with a blackout screen. Overall, I am quite happy with the picture, but, like everyone else here, I am always looking for something better. If this silver fabric with the overlay works as well as people say, I am also quite interested in giving it a try. But first, I have a couple of questions:

1. Why this PVC material? Would not silver fabric of other kinds also work?
2. And what is the importance of being able to stretch it? Is it just to make a bigger screen or does it affect the PQ?
3. I need to be able to rollup my screen. Will the PVC rollup well or does it leave marks?

Thanks very much for any help and I hope this thread will get more attention and participation because I think it is a very interesting alternative to painting screens.

[MTyson]

I scrapped the overlay. It turns out that light was reflecting off of my monitor and making the bars appear much less black. The overlay actually made the bar about 5 shades darker. Still, the silver is excellent by itself. Add some clear matte laquer if you will be doing anything besides table mounting. If you are table mounting and won't be using the clear matte laquer than you need to make sure that when you sit down your face is near the bottom of the screen. This makes the hot spot virtually disappear when I sit down.

From my own experience I can only recommend table mounting, because I have never tried the clear matte laquer myself. I hear it works good though. If I wasn't table mounting I'd have to try it.

Further, I have tried multiple silver fabrics and NONE have come close. I had one that produced better blacks, but crushed the whites badly. I've tried about 4 other and the silver pvc is great if you can get around it's flaws. I have, so I'm happy with it.

Most people want to stretch it to make it bigger. I ordered 3 yards and had to cut it to make a 9 foot diagonal screen. It's big enough for now. The screen shouldnt be rolled up. It's very bendy. Marks can be stretch out. Very stretchable material this pvc is.

[doaz]

Hey Dragoon2B,
Did you place the tulle right over the fabric (where it's touching) or is it over the outside of the frame (where the tulle is about 1/2" from the fabric?

Thanks,
doaz?
=========================
Dragoon2B
New Member

Registered: Oct 2003
Location:
Posts: 12
For those of you who have ceiling mounted PJ, the clear matte laquer is a MUST. The screen is absolutely horrible without it. The laquer also removes the reflections. The glare was so bad initially that I almost threw it out before even trying the laquer. I was pleasantly surprised after spaying it on, though. Major improvement.

Like MTyson, I am really impressed with this screen material. During the day, it is at least twice as visible as my blackout cloth screen. It is also really stretchy. I think a screen height of 60" could easily be achieved. Maybe even 65".

I tried taking some digital photos of the two screens in action, but the light levels on my camera kept changing from shot to shot.

I am going to try to find some of this black netting this weekend and give it a try. Maybe it will take some of the noise out.

kretschmers: Ceiling mount is possible with this screen as long as you coat it with some clear flat laquer. The black netting will probably make it even better.

[Zammer]

I am giving this a try. I personally do not have alot in the painting skill, and felt that this would be the easiest single step material to give a try.
I found a local supplier (Fabric store) in emonton alberta. 16.99/meter canadian

With just hanging on the wall my first impression is astounding compared to what i had before. I think it will be much better once it is stretched and mounted onto a frame. I will try to get done this weekend.

**I currently just am using a temporary sheet of matt white tyvek that I got for free** nothing special no frills, just something to project onto.

Things that i feel improve over what I had:
- color punch
- apparent contrast improvement
- simple 1 step material
- no hassles with painting a uniform surface

Negative point:

- hot spot (I am going to try the matt laquer suggestion to minimize this)


I must say this thread was a great help and inspiration. If i can get photos and people want to see, i may post in the future. Amazing stuff. I will follow this thread, and post updates once i get everything together.

[Zammer]

Frame is built and fabric stratched.

Frame out of 1/2" square steel tube and welded at joints, ground down welds to smooth out rough joints. Hot melt glue to attach the material to the frame.

Now I know that the exact dimensions i did are not totally correct, but for 4:3 image it is the highest I could stretch the material and for 16:9 image it is the widest my lens zoom will go.

So the dimensions are:
62" tall x 82" wide

The frame is light and strong enough. Sort of like this

_____________
| | |
| | |
| | |
| | |
|_____ |______|

So the material did stretch to 62" but i think that I over did it a tad <G>
My friends do not notice, but i can tell that because i stretched it so far, you can see the fabric grain vertically. it would not be noticable if the max height was closer to about 59"

Next on the to do list is to mount it, and look into some sort of masking.
The image is a HUGE improvement over the previous material i used (matt white tyvek material)

Contrast is better, color more accurate ( Browns and oranges are definatley better than before) , and image brightness is fantastic.

I will be sending some cutoff material to tryg for his opinion

BTW I have an xga projector overhead, and the hotspotting is not too bad, perhaps because i have the material stretched so far it lost some shine?

[Zammer]

sorry my crude diagram of my frame did not turn out as planned

[rogo]

I believe one of the UBB tags will give you fixed spacing and your diagram will work out.

[elnino]

Do any of you have experience with the Silver Matte fabric from Da-lite?

[Shedrock]

I finally received my silver pvc fabric today (nice 10 day wait...), and built a quick screen. I just wrapped the fabric around a sheet of 1/4" plywood and secured it with thumb tacks on the back. My screen is only 72" diagonal, so it went fast.
First impressions:
Major hot spotting, even with my table mounted pj. The clear matte lacquer that "Doaz" describes is a must. I'm going to wait a few days for the fabric to completely settle on the board before I apply the lacquer spray.

Blacks are much blacker, whites seem whiter, shadow detail seems the same. Probably a limitation of the Sanyo Z1 LCD system.

Screendoor and artifacts seem a little worse, much like the Silverstar, the screen shows every detail that the pj throws. This may change a bit after the clear matte treatment.

Here is a quick screenshot I took with the new silver pvc fabric screen on the right, and my Parkland white plastic screen on the left.

[CMRA]

Originally posted by Shedrock
I finally received my silver pvc fabric today (nice 10 day wait...), and built a quick screen. I just wrapped the fabric around a sheet of 1/4" plywood and secured it with thumb tacks on the back. My screen is only 72" diagonal, so it went fast.
First impressions:
Major hot spotting, even with my table mounted pj. The clear matte lacquer that "Doaz" describes is a must. I'm going to wait a few days for the fabric to completely settle on the board before I apply the lacquer spray.

Blacks are much blacker, whites seem whiter, shadow detail seems the same. Probably a limitation of the Sanyo Z1 LCD system.

Screendoor and artifacts seem a little worse, much like the Silverstar, the screen shows every detail that the pj throws. This may change a bit after the clear matte treatment.

Here is a quick screenshot I took with the new silver pvc fabric screen on the right, and my Parkland white plastic screen on the left.

Finally, a screen shot! Thanks shedrock, good show! It never ceases to amaze me how a single snap can do what a hundred posts couldn't. It speaks volumes. Please, don't stop there. CMRA

[Jim J]

Is it me? or does this seem like it is getting into some similiar territory as the SuperPlex?

Highly reflective silver, backing a semi-transparent other color (in this case black, SP - white/l. gray)

Maybe this morphs into an Acoustically Transparent SuperPlex (sans the plexi of course) or easy fabric based SuperPlex.

[Shedrock]

In the short time I have spent with this product, I can already see that it is not "the holy grail" of cheap screens. In fact, it seems to create as many problems as it solves. However, it does have some big advantages, the picture is MUCH better in dark scenes, and the image generally appears sharper. Tryg was right about the silver based screens being superior. Right now, I really can't judge the final picture quality until I have applied the matte lacquer spray, and that isn't going to happen until after Christmas. I definitely want to make some test panels before I spray my full screen.

Originally posted by Jim J

Maybe this morphs into an Acoustically Transparent SuperPlex (sans the plexi of course) or easy fabric based SuperPlex.

Nah, I don't think so. MM and CMRA are seeking a screen with maximum depth of image, created with multiple layers. This screen is just a metallic silver surface as opposed to the matte white surface that most screens provide. I have seen the Silverstar, and this screen provides that same 'boost' to the image, although at a lower quality. Call this screen the "GhettoStar" if you want, that is a better comparison.

"Acoustically Transparent" - the fabric has the color and consistency of duct tape. A big giant stretchy piece of duct tape. I don't think you could mount speakers behind the screen without the sound being altered. (and don't even consider a roll-up screen with this material.)

I tried to take a good screen shot for CMRA, but my camera was not cooperating for some reason (all shots were out of focus and off color).
Here is a crappy one with an odd blue tint (?) that really shows the current hot-spot.

[Jim J]

Originally posted by Shedrock
Nah, I don't think so. MM and CMRA are seeking a screen with maximum depth of image, created with multiple layers. This screen is just a metallic silver surface as opposed to the matte white surface that most screens provide...

I could've sworn I read above people adding an additional layer of either another fabric, or some paint product over the silver

"Acoustically Transparent" - the fabric has the color and consistency of duct tape. A big giant stretchy piece of duct tape. I don't think you could mount speakers behind the screen without the sound being altered...


right. I know. I should have been more clear. My thought was to use some other silver fabric, not this one, that was transparent to audio.

[squighound]

Keep it coming guys. Excellent work testing out different products. If anybody has tried it out with the matte laquer spray I'd love to see the results. Maybe a screen shot with 1/3 "old screen", 1/3 silver pvc, and 1/3 silver pvc with matte lacquer?

Either way, any info you guys can provide is appreciated!

[CMRA]

Originally posted by CMRA
Finally, a screen shot! Thanks shedrock, good show! It never ceases to amaze me how a single snap can do what a hundred posts couldn't. It speaks volumes. Please, don't stop there. CMRA

And, he didn't. Shedrock, aka Matt. was kind enough to drop by this evening with some interesting samples. He won't admit it, but he's a DIYer through and through...and, a good one at that.
Of merit was his cleverly named fabric he calls "ghettostar" which I believe has serious potential and also a piece of parkland he left in my possession.
For everyone who swears by the parkland, all I can say is it holds its own and for the price you'd be crazy to buy a matte white manufactured screen.
Yes, I still prefer my SuperDeluxe best of all. (Wouldn't you know it?)
I hope Matt doesn't give up on his 'silver screen'; it really has pizazz.
(Are you listening Matt?) Those of you serious about taking silver to the next level should PM him and find out more.
Matt, thanks again for dropping by and sharing.

[Shedrock]

Originally posted by CMRA
Those of you serious about taking silver to the next level should PM him and find out more.
Matt, thanks again for dropping by and sharing.

Personally, I recommend that you send a PM off to CMRA and try to get a visit to his house. He gives out FREE BEER! At my place, if you don't have enough beer for both of us, you're not getting in the door.

I was going to post to this thread that I had given up on the silver fabric screen after several examples of clear matte spray, applied to test pieces, failed to produce a satisfactory result. However, after comparing examples with CMRA, I may take up the crusade once again after this holiday season finally ends.

[Shedrock]

Well, I decided to use up a can of Krylon Matte finish on my actual full size screen last weekend. This is a strange spray - it smells like crazy when it is wet, but dries real fast to no smell at all. The can recommends waiting at least TWO MINUTES between coats! I only applied 2 coats, but it still didn't completely kill the hot spot, the screen now has a much larger "hot area". What I did like about the Krylon is that it preserved the incredible sharpness that the silver metallic provides. I didn't want a finish that would dull the surface into just a matte grey, like the Greyhawk is. I only tried 3 spray substances, more testing really needs to be done.

The important part of this post is NOT to use a spray called "American Accents Clear Topcoat." (I got it at Home Depot) It went on well, but after a few days, I noticed that the surface of my test panels was completely dried out, and badly cracked. In other words, the fabric is completely ruined on these test pieces.

I do know of at least 2 other AVS forum members that are experimenting with these screens; hopefully, activity will pick up soon.

[squighound]

Is it just me, or is the hot spot taking up ~80% of the screen? The image looks a little dark towards the corners, but other than that looks great! Keep up the good work!

[Shedrock]

Well, I have been using my silver fabric screen for about 2 weeks now; I really like certain aspects of it, but it does have some large drawbacks too. I placed a small strip of the Parkland Plastic material in front of my screen tonight, just to compare the viewing cone and light rejection.

The following screen shots suck. My digital camera hates to attempt them, and fights me all the way. The artifacts, and banding, and general fuzziness are from the camera. Just look at the light shading, thats all that's important here.

The first one is straight on, lights off. The silver screen looks much more dynamic than the Parkland in this shot. The Parkland looks bland and lacks some detail.

[Shedrock]

This next pic is from way over on the side with the lights off. The silver screen all but disappears, but the Parkland still looks good. Way to go Parkland!

Remember -- all those lines are my bratty camera.

[Shedrock]

Next, I turned on the lights. The top of the screen remains covered by a shadow, but look near the bottom. The parkland gets lit up and washed out big time. The silver holds it's ground. The lower black bar really reveals the Parkland.

[Shedrock]

From the side with the lights on, it's all a mess. The silver fabric, which severely faded even with the lights out, is now almost useless. The Parkland is still semi-visible, but is washed out badly. I should note that this is with direct lights right on the screen, and the room totally lit up. Both screens will do fine with some indirect "mood lights" on.

So, what does this prove? Nothing, and everything. Take the info and store it in your brains for the next screen comparison that you do. When evaluating screens, turn the lights up and down, walk around the room, try different conditions, and different materials. In the end, you will have a better theater.

[CMRA]

Originally posted by Shedrock

The first one is straight on, lights off. The silver screen looks much more dynamic than the Parkland in this shot. The Parkland looks bland and lacks some detail.

Your 'ghettostar' has more to like than dislike, that's for sure. Viewing your first SS exhibits very little or no hotspotting. Good show, Matt.
Your 'lights on' shots are no worse than the next guy's. The side view shot is very telling. Thanks for sharing.

[Imageek2]

Originally posted by Jim J
I could've sworn I read above people adding an additional layer of either another fabric, or some paint product over the silver. This is what I am interested in as well. Has anyone tried laying a very high thread count grey sheet of fabric over a silver backing?

[dokworm]

Any of you guys that have tried the Silver PVC screen live anywhere near someone with an actual silverstar? Would love to see a side by side of ghettostar vs silverstar.
Some guys in the CRT forum have bought silverstars...

[Shedrock]

Originally posted by dokworm
Any of you guys that have tried the Silver PVC screen live anywhere near someone with an actual silverstar? Would love to see a side by side of ghettostar vs silverstar.
Some guys in the CRT forum have bought silverstars...

I have seen both screens, and the silverstar blows the pvc fabric away. They actually look sorta similar when viewed straight on, but as conditions change, the picture from the fabric breaks down quickly. Also, the professionally made screen has a perfectly even surface.

Yet another case of "you get what you pay for."

[dokworm]

Thanks!
As we only usually have 2 people in our home theatre, viewing straight on isn't a problem. I was more interested in the 'hotspot' and brightness issues.

Cheers

[Shedrock]

Originally posted by Imageek2
This is what I am interested in as well. Has anyone tried laying a very high thread count grey sheet of fabric over a silver backing?

The original idea for a fabric overlay came from poster Mtyson earlier in this thread. Then later:

Originally posted by MTyson

I scrapped the overlay.

[Shedrock]

I am somewhat interested in trying out new materials and ideas, but I really recommend that anyone considering a do-it yourself screen read this thread first:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3171321#post3171321

[velvetpoet]

I've temporally tacked up a 110 screen. Its not as bright as i hoped, it definitely helped contrast and seemed to make colors a little richer. The wall i was projecting on before had a slight gloss to it and actually had a brighter picture. I also tested with an old 50 inch da-lite flyer screen which seemed to give a brighter picture as well.

The silver material seemed to make screendoor less apparent and made the blacks darker. Im ceiling mounting and there is hot-spotting going on 80 percent of the image looks nice while the corners look darker. (when i lay on the floor it looks perfect).

contrary to other posts field of view is effected, looking at the screen from the side is darker then looking front on. Height in relation to the screen makes a difference as well.

I'm going to build a frame so i build a real screen using the material and try reducing the hot-spotting with a top coat.

I would also like to build a screen using the paint used on my wall. I'm going to ask my land lady what paint it is and build a quick and dirty screen. It gives a really bright image but the wall has bumps on it so the picture is pretty bad. The da lite flyer gives about as bright an image and gives better whites, would like to find the material and make a large screen to test it as well. Maybe this weekend ill take some pictures of day time viewing with the silver screen and the da-lite side by side.

If it was a perfect world and i could reduce the hot-spotting and build a screen with the da-lite material, i would use the silver screen for night time viewing and the da-lite for day time viewing.

[dokworm]

anyone tried creating a filter for zoomplayer on your HTPC etc to reduce the hotspotting effect? Kind of like a radial gradient alpha mask that would make the centre slightly darker and even out the image?

[edgebsl]

shedrock ,I promise to get off my ass and get my full screen built! lol! Your screenshots look great to me.. at least for what the material is and what it costs.$30 plus ship. I did make some shots usig my bo cloth and a sample of the pvc sprayed with krylon.I also have a silverstar sample in the shots as well.

[MTyson]

For anyone interested. There is also a grey PVC fabric just like the silver. I'm guessing the grey will produce much better blacks and be a great screen for ambient light viewing. The silver PVC is better than most in ambient light already. The "blacks" dont' wash out as much on the silver, so I'm guessing a high gain grey PVC will look far better in ambient light. It should produce better whites and have a brighter picture than a normal grey screen too.

Worth a shot. If I try one anytime soon I'll let you know how it compares.

[MTyson]

Hey edgebsi, is the largest piece the Silver PVC (in the photo)? I don't notice a difference between the small sized piece (bottom, left side. Is that the Silverstar sample?) and the largest piece (the piece that makes up most of the picture). Let me know which is which.

The small middle one that can hardly be seen, is that the BO Cloth?

[CMRA]

Originally posted by edgebsl
shedrock ,I promise to get off my ass and get my full screen built! lol! Your screenshots look great to me.. at least for what the material is and what it costs.$30 plus ship. I did make some shots usig my bo cloth and a sample of the pvc sprayed with krylon.I also have a silverstar sample in the shots as well.

Again, a nice very telling image. Silver without warm spotting or hot spotting. Your screen shot does what a thousand posts never could.
Thanks for sharing aand educating us.
PS: Is that a 'silverstar' sample in the photo? More photos, please.

[velvetpoet]

Ive actually just reordered another silver pvc but i saw the grey up there when i did, was tempted in trying it but i thought it would defeat the purpose of trying to build a silver screen =) I was actually tempted to try the white as well but i order another silver instead. My other material got damaged, some wrinkles i couldnt get out by stretching an a scratch. I really like the material because you can build larger screens with it. Ive been having a problem getting matte krylon all i could find was satin so i havent tested it with a top coat yet.

[edgebsl]

The pic is blackout cloth with a pvc silver sample HOSED in clear matte on the bottom,next to it is the silverstar framed in black.In this shot you can see the colors are richer on the pvc and the silverstar actually comes in last
in that shot. because its at the bottom of the screen.IF it were at the top it would be the brightest because it is angular reflective. Which leads me to believe that while the silverstar doesnt hotspot...maybe it wont always have an even brightness across the board .

I have the whole screen done and it looks good.I will post some pics soon.
I had problems getting it stretched to the point of no wrinkles and trouble getting the clear to go as an even coat, you can make out some foggy spots in dark scenes where the coat isnt even..like the screen is a little dirty or something.But in bright scenes lookout,it just screams color!

The consensus is generally that the drawbacks are a fair tradeoff for the incredible brightness and color.I like it better than blackout cloth and it almost does what the silverstar does at a fraction of the cost.

I've almost eliminated the hotspotting ,but it does get a slight shiny spot when you sit on the sides.Very slight though.

Shedrock,I used a half can of krylon. Should i use the rest to try and smooth out the fog?
Im scared if i keep caking it on my screen will turn out blurry.

I may have to order another piece.

[edgebsl]

camera is blurry, but you can see how bright!

[velvetpoet]

if you want to get rid of the wrinkles stretch it tight and tack it up on the wall and let it sit over night. Then when you pull it down you should have gotten rid of any folds or wrinkles. I think the material is better then blackout cloth just for the fact you can make larger screens with it.

[Shedrock]

While other threads argue about how impressive their screenshots are, every picture posted in this topic looks like crap. Way to go team! Keep those shots coming till the moderator shuts us down for wasting AVS bandwidth.

Vpoe- I had some large areas that looked like the pvc had lifted away from the fabric at a fold. I stretched the screen for a week before applying the Krylon Matte, now about a month later, I cannot even find the previous defects.

Edge- I used one whole can which allowed 2 coats. I would have applied more, but I am too lazy to drive to the store to get some. The coating is so clear, I don't think you could apply too much. But do whatever you think is right.

Here is a "not so bad" screenshot.

[velvetpoet]

lol this is a pretty dreadfull thread for screenshots. I guess unlesss cmra tests the material we wont see any amazing shots. Just kidding but like i posted earlier my material got damaged and i dont want to post any shots whith defects. Well i guess if i shoot it at the right angle..... but i dont think that would be really fair. For instance i can lay on the floor and look up and the picture looks incredable but thats not really a fair representation of what im seeing when i sit normally. But maybe ill do it anyways just so you can see the potential (if you could reduce the hotspotting).

[MTyson]

Can anyone tell me how I can get a SilverStar sample? I really want to see how it compares in person to the Silver PVC.

Here's a screenshot to add to the list of "bad" screenshots. It's not as bad as some I've seen though. I'd say it's decent if you take in the fact that I used a digital camcorder to take the picture (bad in low light):

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php?photo=5750&password=&sort=1&cat=508&page=1

The actual picture on my 111" silver PVC screen is far superior and actually looks brighter, clearer, more vivid and MUCH better than the screenshot. The camcorder is horrible at screenshots. I've had to toss so many screenshots just because of the fact that colors seem to disappear when recorded onto MiniDV tape in the dark. Alot of detail disappears too. Any grain is from the camcorder (the camcorder is awesome with lot's of light, but crap when in low light). The actual 111" diagonal image is very sharp and bright (much brighter than the screenshot).

[MTyson]

PS: Does anyone know what kind of camera you'd need to take stunning screenshots like CMRA does?

I'd love to be able to capture the actual quality of the image. It's about impossible to capture even 20% of the quality with my camcorder.

[CMRA]

Originally posted by MTyson
PS: Does anyone know what kind of camera you'd need to take stunning screenshots like CMRA does?

I'd love to be able to capture the actual quality of the image. It's about impossible to capture even 20% of the quality with my camcorder.

Don't you know CMRA uses a 'magic' camera? I read it on another thread.

For those seeking the truth, it's an Olympus ES-100. ISO 100, 'auto' white balance, aperture prioity mode.

[edgebsl]

Hmm, magic no.Just need a good one.My $100 job doesnt cut it at least for screenshots.

I am trying to borrow my buddy's $900 canon super bad^ss camera for a voley of screenshots...Which will include shots of the silverstar and various dalite samples. Im going to do it before I put on the extra clear as shedrock suggests in case i screw up the brightness....then if that doesnt help my consistency i may start over.

Go to vutecs website and e-mail them.They will send you a sample if you bug them enough!

I am also waiting on samples of another high gain screen company...I wont say anymore unless I am impressed ...we'll see.

[TapeItAll]

I currently own a Da-Lite high contrast screen, and a Sharp PG-A10x. I have a situation where ambient light is fairly uncontrolled (living room).

I picked up a Da-list HC .8 gain screen for cheap when I got my projector, but now I am on the hunt for a screen that rejects ambient light and yields better blacks without crushing everything else like the HC screen does.

I have been reading this thread (and other silver DIY threads) and ordered some of the silver PVC. I also ordered a number of samples from Da-Lite, Silver Matte among them.

What I found was interesting. Both the Silver PVC and Silver Matte look almost identical (aside from the silver PVC being more shiny). Both seem to have the same affect accross the color spectrum - ie better blacks, and brighter colors and whiter whites. Indeed aside from the shiny quality of the fabric, I would be hard pressed to tell them apart.

Now the Silver Matte is only 1.1 gain and others have speculated that the pvc is much higher. I assume that if I use a clear matte spray that I would see less shine to the pvc, but overall more brightness. Perhaps the silver pvc has less perceived gain because it is ceiling mounted...

My A10x is ceiling mounted with a 14' throw yielding a 96"x72" image BTW.

Seating area is about 12' away - fairly dead on in front of the screen.

My question is, has anyone else tried the Silver Matte? Especially with a ceiling mounted setup (where you are already losing a lot of the perceived gain of the Silver PVC?).

Even though my Silver Matte sample is small I am not seeing any hotspotting. The results I am seeing have me edging toward picking this screen up, unless anyone else knows of any significant negatives?

[edgebsl]

I have a silver matte sample that i have compared to my pvc screen.The pvc is wayyyy brighter. Even with the clear coat its much more reflective.

[pevend]

I can't help with the screen question, but I'd like to know how you mounted your A10X. I just bought one and I looked at the bottom of it and it doesn't seem too obvious to me how to do a ceiling mount. How did you do it?

Don

[TapeItAll]

There are three screw holes on the bottom of the unit (for a ceiling mount, you mount it upside down, and use the menu to invert the image). I bought a Chief brand mount on ebay for $100. There are diy mounts I have seen for a lot less... just didn't want to take a chance.

[Shedrock]

I am now using a Vutec SilverStar screen after my fabric pvc screen convinced me that metallic silver was the way to go. Both screens are amazingly similar when viewed straight on; but overall, the Vutec is just more consistent. The off-axis viewing problems, and surface imperfections of the pvc are tough to live with. The picture just looks "cleaner" on the SilverStar, with less downsides.

I took a few screenshots to demonstrate some things-- all the pictures have the fabric pvc on the left and the SilverStar on the right.

Lets get to some shots: In this one you can see how similar the screens can look.

[Shedrock]

Here is a darker shot. In reality, the Vutec looked cleaner, with a slightly higher black level, but better shadow detail.

[Shedrock]

Off-axis viewing kills the picture from the pvc fabric quick. Here are two shots from about a 45 degree angle.

First, from the left side of the screen (closer to the pvc).

[Shedrock]

Now the same shot and angle from the right. It's no contest, the pvc is barely visible.

[Shedrock]

The SilverStar does have its disadvantages too. The black level got raised slightly, which is unwelcome with my Sanyo Z1 projector (LCD System). I have been adjusting the projector settings to adapt to this (and I already use a Hoya FL-D filter), but I think any resemblance to true black is a lost cause.

Also, the SilverStar washes out much easier in ambient light. With the pvc, I got used to watching regular HDTV shows with the lights on. Now I am back to sitting in the dark. This aspect is a bummer, but this screen is like a Ferrari, not a minivan.

Here is a shot with the room lights ON BRIGHT. In this shot the pvc is superior.

[b2bonez]

Originally posted by MTyson
PS: Does anyone know what kind of camera you'd need to take stunning screenshots like CMRA does?

I'd love to be able to capture the actual quality of the image. It's about impossible to capture even 20% of the quality with my camcorder.

This ain't your mother's brownie...

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_reviews/e100rs.html

b2b

[edgebsl]

Wow, I only had the sample to compare but now that I see your pics i can confirm that this stuff really does come close to the vutec.The bright scenes just kill with the pvc and the black levels are even better, but viewing cone is where it suffers.But I have to say that it isnt bad.My room is narrow and for me the veiwing cone is more than adequate .What is most interesting about this comparison is that the silverstar costs over $1000 and the pvc and a can of paint run about $50.And the vutec isnt winning that big a margin! lol! And i too have become used to watching tv with the lights on!

By the looks of things your pvc screen is much more consistent and free from hotspotting than mine. I havent added more clear yet but I think its a must or I start over.Could you elaborate how you apllied the paint? Were you close? was the screen on the ground or propped up?

I have a sample of m2500 that I am very impressed with.Its a little brighter than the pvc and a little less black.Probably a brightness/contrast adjustment away from being the same. I dont know if its worth the $ for the M2500 with the bad things like Ive heard with it.I would hate to spend real money on something that hotspots and has inconsistency.But it is really cheap though.Im seeing it pretty reasonable by the sqaure ft and you can even get a cineperm screen for around $500 or maybe even less.

I hope your shots put the pressure on the other companies to compete with the silverstar. Obviously it wouldnt be impossible to challenge if you can come close with a piece of fabric.

[velvetpoet]

Finally someone who has agreed with my field of viewing statement. (one reason why i prefer the matte white side)

You look like you did a great job of reducing the hotspotting though. Its a great material to work with because of its stretchyness you can build larger screens also if you fail at using the silver side you can flip it over and use the matte white side. Im thinking of building a double side frame where i can flip the frame back and forth for day time viewing (silver) and night time viewing (matte white)

[edgebsl]

Im thumbs down on the m2500 now.Its not brighter jsut lighter.the blacks arent very good and ambient light just kills it.
Nothing touches the pvc with lights on.

[MTyson]

Wow. I'm glad I didn't plunk down a ton of cash for a SilverStar or Stewart screen. The silver PVC is a fantastic screen for just $35.00.

I have a question about the screenshots. Did you just hang the Silver PVC over the SilverStar and take a screenshot or did you optimize the projector's video settings for each screen, take a screenshot of both, and then combine them together with photoshop?

I'm just wondering, because I wonder how they (SilverStar & Silver PVC) compare when the projector's settings are setup using a THX optimizer for each particular screen. The best settings for the SilverStar may not be the best for the Silver PVC (and vice versa), correct?

I'm interested in seeing how the two screens compare when the projector is optimized for each screen it's projecting onto.

[Shedrock]

MTyson,

Very good questions, I will answer them in order.


Originally posted by MTyson
Wow. I'm glad I didn't plunk down a ton of cash for a SilverStar or Stewart screen. The silver PVC is a fantastic screen for just $35.00.

I'm happy with my SilverStar purchase, but the money was less of an issue for me. I understand that most people are on a tight budget for A/V gear, and there are many other options that are much cheaper and nearly as good.


I have a question about the screenshots. Did you just hang the Silver PVC over the SilverStar and take a screenshot or did you optimize the projector's video settings for each screen, take a screenshot of both, and then combine them together with photoshop?

I didn't even make a frame for my PVC screen, the fabric was just wrapped around a sheet of plywood and attached with thumbtacks. Last weekend, I cut that plywood sheet in half, and placed the half sheet in front of the Vutec for the screen shots.


I'm just wondering, because I wonder how they (SilverStar & Silver PVC) compare when the projector's settings are setup using a THX optimizer for each particular screen. The best settings for the SilverStar may not be the best for the Silver PVC (and vice versa), correct?

I'm interested in seeing how the two screens compare when the projector is optimized for each screen it's projecting onto.

The pj settings ARE completely different for the two screens, this almost kept me from posting a comparison because i thought it wouldn't be fair. The PVC is darker and has strong blue tendencies, so those settings are brighter and have lots of red added to counter the blue of the screen. The Vutec is naturally brighter and has very neutral colors, so these settings are darker, with some changes to the gamma, and very balanced colors.

I took about 30 pictures of different scenes, from several movies, and selected the ones that demonstrated the properties that I was trying to describe. The settings that I used were for the Vutec, but in these shots, the PVC looks good enough --- maybe a bit blue--- but good enough. Also, my pj is table mounted (sits on coffee table in front of couch) and projects UP towards the screen, if your pj is ceiling mounted, the hotspotting effect my be different.


I'm interested in seeing how the two screens compare when the projector is optimized for each screen it's projecting onto.

Screenshots cannot properly represent such details as screendoor, colors, or brightness. You will have to see the difference with your own eyes, in a real situation.

[GJP831]

You guys are trying to re-invent the wheel....There is no way you are going to invent Silver material that is going to give you the quality of the Silverstar Screen. If you want Silverstar quality buy a Silverstar and relax. You have the best money can buy. Stop trying to invent something that wont work....

[MTyson]

GJP831, not everyone can or wants to plunk down the cost of a projector for a screen, especially when one of similar quality (close enough, especially for the price) can be had for the price of 2 DVDs.

Plus, the SilverPVC is not only close in quality at a small fraction of the price of the SilverStar, it also kills virtually any screen I've seen when ambient light is present (including the SilverStar).

I knew after seeing those comparison screenshots that Vutec would chime in asap. I was right. Afterall, if it is discovered by anyone that there is a screen so close in quality for a small fraction of the price of their SilverStar it could possibly hurt their sales. Don't worry though, SilverPVC is for the people who want to save a lot of money and get a great screen too.

I was considering a SilverStar, but not now. Now, if I really want to upgrade, instead of getting a new screen for minimial improvements at an extremely high price, I'll just sell my DLP and get a CRT projector.

[Sergei Esenin]

You guys are trying to re-invent the wheel...

No, they're trying to invent an affordable wheel for those unable or unwilling to buy a very expensive one, or those who like to experiment in DIY wheel design. Huge difference. :-)

If you want Silverstar quality buy a Silverstar and relax. You have the best money can buy. Stop trying to invent something that wont work....

I can understand how anyone whose .sig is "vutec inside salesmanager" would get defensive, but I think it's been demonstrated that it indeed will work--and very well--in certain particular situations. There's no denying that the Silverstar is a terrifically engineered screen that's virtually eliminated all the negatives which have rendered silver screens a rarity in the contemporary world. The viewing cone and lack of hotspotting are truly amazing, and there's no denying that it's a top-notch product that no DIY project can match.

That said, I think Shedrock's comparison shots between his full SilverStar screen and his matte-coated silver PVC screen prove that if you're going to be viewing dead-on without seating at angles and you have enough flexibility with projector placement to cut any hotspotting issues, the silver PVC can offer almost identical performance to the SilverStar--for $50 instead of $1000, and with better performance under ambient light. Anyone on a tight budget with a dead-on viewing angle can take the DIY silver PVC option seriously. I for one could never afford to spend $1000 on a screen, and wouldn't want to since I'm a lower-end Infocus X1 guy, but $50 to experiment with silver PVC and a little readjustment of my seating and projector locations is nothing.

$1000 screens are great for those who can afford them. I certainly can't afford to spend more than a couple hundred, which is enough to try a few different DIY approaches and stick with whatever works best for my setup. Silver PVC with some matte coats looks like it's worth a try since I have a smallish movie room with a dead-on viewing angle and would appreciate the chance to crank up the indirect lighting a bit.

[CMRA]

I wish to publicly thank Matt for going the distance and being the first member I am aware of in "Screens" to actually post screen shots of the Silverstar in action. It's been a long time coming. If you are up to it, please post more, Matt. Thanks, CMRA

[edgebsl]

Matt owns a silverstar and seems to think this is pretty worthwhile effort even though he prefers the silverstar.Most with the $ probably will.But you cant deny that 1st screenshot matt put up from dead on.It's frighteningly close.I actually think I prefer the cheaper screen because of its light rejection and the fact that i dont need a wide viewing angle.Do I smell a hint of fear down there in FL?

[Gray Davis]

Matt also is the first to mention a blue tint to the PVC. I've just read all six pages in this thread and this is the first I've seen a blue tint mentioned. Anyone else? I want to try the PVC but if it screws up the color balance, I consider that kind of a big problem.

[edgebsl]

Mine doesnt seem to...With the blackout cloth I found myself boosting red and now my colors are right up the middle.If its blue tint ,its really mild.
I found colors are much brighter now overall.

[Nodecam]

I'm coming to this thread late, since I haven't been reading this forum regularly since I got my screen built. Anyway, I went to check out the link for the fabric, and I get a 404.

Exploring on the site, I found This fabric (http://www.mjtrends.com/silver-pvc-fabric.asp) - can anyone confirm that it's the same stuff?

[Gray Davis]

Well, it says silver PVC, so I'm guessing that is, in fact, what they're talking about.
I intend to find some of this for myself today.

[Gray Davis]

****. Called every fabric-related store in town. Nothing doing. Most had never heard of it. (The full name is "Poly-Vinyl Chloride (PVC) but it has also come to be called 'Patent Vinyl Cloth' by the garment industry to differentiate it from the PVC pipe used in household plumbing," according to the website Nodecam links to above.) Looks like I'll have to order this online and sit around and wait to experiment with it...Just for kicks I put an ironing board cover up on my screen--kind of silver and metalic looking--whites looked kind of gray-blue, the color of the ironing board, but blacks looked SO much better I could almost put up with gray-blue whites. On a dark scene the ironing board looked good, while the rest of the screen looked completely washed out in comparisson

[eameres]

You guys have convinced me to take the plunge and order up a few yards.

I have a thought regarding flattening the sheen of the fabric. I wonder if you're better off adding a bit of white to the clear flattener to improve the viewing cone a bit. That seems to be the gist of what a lot of the painters have been trying, putting a transluscent white coating over a silverish base.

[Shedrock]

It's great that a few more people are joining this little silver pvc experiment, but I again want to caution people that these screens are NOT perfected. If you are seeking a good, low cost screen, I still recommend a standard matte-white screen such as the Parkland Plastic, or plain black-out cloth. Painted solutions such as "Misty Evening" are very popular too. I would hate to see people invest their screen budget, and free time, only to become bitter in the end.

On the other hand, if you are familiar with front projectors, and interested in a fairly low cost and clean project, the silver pvc is very fun to experiment with. The project was a second screen for me, that over time (after I applied the matte spray) became my primary screen.

Nodecam-- I got my fabric from the MJTrends site.

Gray Davis -- loved the ironing board story, another very similar test material might be plain duct tape (a roll of duct tape and a hammer will fix anything, right?). I'm not kidding, this pvc material looks like giant silver sheets of the stuff.

Eameres--- Any experimentation that you want to try is a good thing, we always need fresh ideas for matte coatings to knock down the hotspotting. I built 4 sample strips, and treated each to different sprays. One sample got a coat of a translucent white paint designed for making glass into "frosted windows". I didn't like the result, I thought it killed the sharpness of the plain pvc. But feel free to try any coatings, and please report your findings.


Here is a left-over shot from my last set comparing the pvc to the SilverStar, this one is from straight on, with a HDTV basketball game. The action made the players blurry, and my camera made the lines all jagged.

[edgebsl]

Card stock white paper,Silverstar,High Power,M2500
from left to right at the top.
There is a light with 2 60 watt bulbs on behind the pj.
Sorry camera is slightly blurry and slightly green.
Gives you an idea though....

eameres
make sure that matte coat goes on even or else you will see it....
I have to do another screen because of this.

[edgebsl]

Here's a darker scene

[MTyson]

Well, I'm thinking of going back to the black tulle overlay. Man, it helps blacks alot, especially with ambient light. The blacks look pretty black even with the light on. I suggest someone else give ithe tulle overlay a shot with their Silver PVC screen. The tulle is very very cheap. I found mine at Wal-Mart in the fabric department (about $1.00 a yard).

If I had a brighter projector or smaller screen size I would definetely use the overlay with my Silver PVC screen. The thing is I'm using an X1 which is about 500 lumens in film mode and I use a 9ft.+ diagonal screen.

Has anyone else tried an overlay yet?

I'm interested in what someone else thinks about the tulle and how it works with their projector and silver pvc. Also, the overlay appears to make the image a bit smoother and it takes away from any screen door effect. I bet this overlay would be great for people with LCD projectors wanting to further improve their blacks.

[jabbermacy]

I tried the silver PVC thing for my ceiling mounted 4800 and quickly determined that I could not get the material uniform enough for my liking. I tried several times to iron-out the wrinkles and just could never get it quite good enough. I gave up, build a frame, bought 3 yards of pre-primed artist canvas and will never look back. The screen is virtually flawless with decent blacks and color. The ONLY thing I'll look at now is a mist grey paint (someday).....

[VideoGrabber]

MTyson wrote:
> I'm interested in what someone else thinks about the tulle and how it works with their projector and silver pvc. <

For those with CRTs, what do you think the effect of the tulle would be? Would it possibly eliminate the need for the matte lacquer spray (which is itself somewhat difficult to get uniformly applied without being visible).

- Tim

[VideoGrabber]

jabbermacy wrote:
> I tried several times to iron-out the wrinkles and just could never get it quite good enough. <

Did you try stretching it, with a frame? Also, my understanding was that some of the wrinkles may eliminate themselves, if given a bit of time.

- Tim

[VideoGrabber]

MTyson inquired:
> No where else on the screen does this ever occur though. Is this a hot spot or is light probably bouncing off of my computer/dinner table (positioned right under the screen) and back onto the screen causing a bright area? <

Did you ever try placing some dark, non-reflective fabric on your table-top, in front of the screen? This would tell you right away if the source of the glare was hot-spotting or not.

- Tim

[MTyson]

Video Grabber,

Yes, the monitor and table reflection seemed to go away. Now I only have the hot spot in the middle. The hot spot isn't an issue for me even though I haven't used any clear matte laquer. My table mounted projector is low enough and the screen is high enough that the hot spot is at the very bottom of my screen and mostly disappears when I sit down, so I see no need to do the clear matte laquer yet (the only reason I want to now is so I can see how good it stops light reflections when lights are on).

The tulle overlay seems to enhance contrast and improve blacks even further than the SPVC does by itself. The tulle makes the picture a tad darker, but not by a whole lot. The only reason I abandonned it in the first place was because I was using such a large screen size and combined with my 500 lumen X1 (in film mode) I just didn't want to lose that brightness. Now, I'm not so sure. I put up an area with tulle and I was torn on what to choose. The night scenes looked great with the tulle overlay and turn on any light whatsoever and it becomes very clear that the tulle is the winner.

I'm sure you saw the SilverStar vs. the SPVC pic comparisons with the lights on. It's the one head on screenshot that wasn't even close. The SPVC clearly won with ambient light. Well, the SPVC with the tulle overlay smokes the regular SPVC with with any ambient light just as bad, if not worse. So, basically the SPVC with the tulle overlay and a bit of ambient light would easiliy smoke any screen out (especially if you used the clear matte laquer). The SPVC already kills every screen I have seen with ambient light. The tulle just further enhcances that great ability.

If you are going to use the SPVC with a CRT (man I'd love to see how that would look) than I don't think the black tulle would help much with hot spots (maybe just slightly), just blacks and possibly contrast (both of which the CRT is already great at). You can still try the stuff though. It's only like $1.00 a yard. You will probably want to use that clear matte laquer though.

When the tulle is on the SPVC you can't even tell unless you get close even though though it's not an extrmely close threaded fabric like say Poly Georgette (something else I was looking at as an overlay). The tulle basically makes the screen appear shades darker than it is. The holes in the tulle are big enough that there is still more SPVC showing through than there is black on the screen, but also small enough that you can't tell it's on. I think that's why it would probably work better than an extremely close threaded transclucent black fabric (such as Poly Georgette, which I still want to tryout) that would actually completely cover the entire silver pvc (because the holes would be so tiny).

I'll be looking to test some more overlays in the near future. I'll let anyone no if I like any of the new ones. In the meantime, I hope someone else would try the tulle overlay with their Silver PVC so I can get oppinons of how how good they think it is with their projector and SPVC. There are some links on this thread where you can find the Tulle. You could also try ebay or a local fabric store (mine was found at Wal-Mart's fabric department). If you're using an LCD projecotr with the SPVC you may want to definetely give the tulle a shot. Blacks could be enhnaced even further.

[VideoGrabber]

MTyson,

thanks very much for the detailed followup.

> I'm sure you saw the SilverStar vs. the SPVC pic comparisons with the lights on. It's the one head on screenshot that wasn't even close. The SPVC clearly won with ambient light. <

Yes, very impressive.

> If you are going to use the SPVC with a CRT <

That's what I'm considering trying.

> You will probably want to use that clear matte laquer though. <

Since my PJ is ceiling mounted, the matte would be vital. I'm just concerned about my ability to apply it uniformly enough that it won't be visible.

- Tim

[Gray Davis]

"Gray Davis -- loved the ironing board story, another very similar test material might be plain duct tape (a roll of duct tape and a hammer will fix anything, right?). I'm not kidding, this pvc material looks like giant silver sheets of the stuff."

Well, Shedrock, as I said I can't find PVC available locally, but I do just happen to have a role of duct tape, so I decided to see what THAT looked like. I covered a piece of cardboard in duct tape and stuck it to my Parkland screen. This is what I saw:

Excellent blacks, but a loss of detail that maybe could have been overcome by tweaking my projector settings (I didn't change any of them). I could live with the loss of detail because the improvement to the blacks was so great.
What I COULDN'T live with, however, was the whites/lighter scenes. Plain Parkland in my light controlled basement was much brighter than the duct tape. Even this I could live with however, but worse, scenes that should have looked white - like a white, overcast sky - looked white on the Parkland, and the duct tape looked like...duct tape. I'm serious, when my Z1 was throwing a lot of white light, as in a sky shot, the duct tape was just lit up and looked like a brightly lit piece of duct tape. It looked silver blue, compared to the relatively natural looking white of the Parkland right next to it.

If this is how PVC would look in my setup, then I'm afraid I have to keep looking for some other solution to my washed out blacks....

[Clarence]

That's the funniest post I've read in months! I've typed LOL several times before, but this time I mean it... I really did laugh out loud.

"and the duct tape looked like...duct tape. I'm serious, when my Z1 was throwing a lot of white light, as in a sky shot, the duct tape was just lit up and looked like a brightly lit piece of duct tape."

Thanks. :)

[Shedrock]

Originally posted by Gray Davis

...I covered a piece of cardboard in duct tape and stuck it to my Parkland screen....If this is how PVC would look in my setup, then I'm afraid I have to keep looking for some other solution to my washed out blacks....

Wow!:eek:


(I was kidding, based on your ironing board story)

[Gray Davis]

"I was kidding, based on your ironing board story."

I knew you weren't suggesting I make an entire screen out of duct tape, but I thought from your post that you were saying it poessessed some of the same reflective qualities as PVC fabric? Oh well, all I'm out is a few feet of duct tape, no big deal. And I'm glad to know--assuming this is the case--that PVC will look much nicer than duct tape!
Here is a question for you, shedrock--and anyone else who has used PVC--I know it stretches horizontally, but not vertically, correct? If so, is it possible to make a PVC screen the same size as your standard sheet of Parkland? Serious answers only, please...

[MTyson]

Yes, SPVC will kill the duct tape. My SPVC has brighter whites than the white sceens I've tried (& better blacks).

I don't know what sizes you can make with a sheet of parkland, but I have approximately a 9'4" (112") diagonal 16:9 screen without really trying to stretch the fabric too much (I stretch enough just stretch most of the wrinkles out).

What size are you wanting to go with this fabric digaonally? Will you be doing 4:3 or 16:9?

[Gray Davis]

"What size are you wanting to go with this fabric digaonally?"

I can't find my tape measure, or I'd tell you exactly. I want it to be the same size or maybe just a bit smaller as my current 16:9 Parkland screen, which is eight feet wide (not sure about diagonal or height.) I'm definitely going to stick with 16:9 - the Z1 is native 16:9 and I mostly watch widescreen DVDs.

[PerfectionHunter]

This thread reminds me of something. It sparks some ideas in seeking for an ideal screen fabric. My cousin made a lovely dress that she wore to a family wedding banquet and it was kind of like a silk and rayon silver coloured fabric material. That dress looked like it could work well for a screen. I'll have to ask her what it was exactly. Maybe even get a projector and beam it on her. Haha.

As a fashion designer, my cousin uses and experiments with many different types of fabrics in her work. I'll try to explain HT screen properties to her and see if she can come up with any ideal fabrics. I know she was interested in a plasma display. I'm going to have to enlighten her about the latest DLP front projection technologies and the amazing price/performance ratio!

My cousin has connections to fabric warehouses (she used to work for a major fabric company) so if we find a good material, I'm sure I can get a good discount. Maybe I can even arrange for a group buy discount for anyone interested.

[Marco T]

My question is for MTyson...

I presently own a Levolor light grey window shade, that is 72 inches wide. It is very shiny, but seems to be good for trial when I get the pj. Is your SPVC comparable to this in terms of shine?

Second I would like to discuss the choice of sheer fabric to kill the hotspots. Seems to me we are trying to kill direct reflections from the pj beam. As such, I think a grey or black fabric would do. The most important part would be the weave. i think the best results would be achieved by a sheer, 2 layer basket weave. The second layer should be offset by one thread, so as to block the holes in the first layer. This way, straight on reflections would be greatly diminished. Choosing a lighter shade of grey could minimize light loss, and if the fabric is tranlucid enough, the silver qualities would still shine through. Something I will try myself, as soon as I scrape up enough dough for a PJ:D

[Gray Davis]

Shedrock, I went back and re-read your post where you mentioned duct tape. This is what you said:

"another very similar test material might be plain duct tape (a roll of duct tape and a hammer will fix anything, right?). I'm not kidding, this pvc material looks like giant silver sheets of the stuff."

Now you say this was a joke. In other words, when you say "I'm not kidding," you actually mean the opposite. Can you blame me for being confused?

[PerfectionHunter]

Originally posted by Marco T
Second I would like to discuss the choice of sheer fabric to kill the hotspots. Seems to me we are trying to kill direct reflections from the pj beam. As such, I think a grey or black fabric would do. The most important part would be the weave. i think the best results would be achieved by a sheer, 2 layer basket weave. The second layer should be offset by one thread, so as to block the holes in the first layer. This way, straight on reflections would be greatly diminished. Choosing a lighter shade of grey could minimize light loss, and if the fabric is tranlucid enough, the silver qualities would still shine through. Something I will try myself, as soon as I scrape up enough dough for a PJ:D

Hi Marco,

That's a good idea. Instead of trying to look for a matching fabric, why not create a fabric from scratch with the ideal colour and texture? I can add that we should find a material that won't wrinkle easily as another important screen fabric characteristic.

[MTyson]

Marco T,

I honestly have no idea. The SPVC is a smooth metallic shiny, so it's hard to say. Some fabrics are shiny (like some silk like fabrics) but still absorb a lot of light because of the fabric type. The SPVC doesn't absorb light it's very smooth and reflective. I don't think any light will make it to the other side because it's completely opaque. Your shade is worth checking out though I guess.

I've used some shiny silk silver fabric and while it gets rid of the hot spot it just doesn't have the brightness of the SPVC. It improves blacks, but the whites aren't as good as on the SPVC. I have some shiny silk like silver fabrics and while they may be shiny, they absorb a lot of light, almost enough to be used for rear projection.

In total darkness I guess they're alright. I may have to hang one of my other silver fabrics up and do another comparison. I know that these fabrics washout with ambient light far quicker than the SPVC. If you want bright whites, better blacks & enhnaced contrast than the SPVC is your best bet once you cover it with clear matte laquer (and possibly some sort of transparent black overlay).

I'll have another look at my other silver fabrics later. I just seem to remember the whites being not near as good as on the SPVC, not that they're bad, because the whites on the SPVC are brighter than every screen material I've tried.

[eameres]

Well, my MJTrends package arrived today and boy is this stuff shiny! Can't wait to get it home!

Anyone consider making a curved screen with the SPVC to combat the hotspotting like they do with other high gain screens?

[Gray Davis]

eameres, please let us know ASAP how the PVC works for you. I'm curious to see more first hand accounts.

[Rudy81]

After reading this thread, I could not help but get interested with the project. I am currently using a Parkland screen with my Sharp Z9000 and have been very pleased with it. I plan on getting some of the SPVC as soon as it is back in stock and trying it out in my HT. My pj is ceiling mounted and lighting is totally controllable, so I have become interested in the improvement this material might make over the Parkland.

Good work on looking at this guys. As soon as I have the material I will post my impressions.

[PerfectionHunter]

eameres,

I wonder if it's possible to apply some anti-reflective coatings to avoid hotspotting?

[MTyson]

PerfectionHunter, everyone is using clear matte laquer to get rid of the hot spot.

[MTyson]

Here is some material that would probably work as a great overlay. I may try some. I'm just not sure if I should go with black, or one of the gray colors. Maybe I'll try both. One or two layers should do the trick.

Here's the link:

http://www.dazian.com/cgi-bin/page.pl?action=show_style&style_id=154&group_id=

[edgebsl]

MTyson,
Maybe you should try the clear coat before going to that....My blacks are better than anything i've seen except grey or silver matte materials with 1.0 gain or less.I couldnt imagine needing more.

[MTyson]

So the clear coat improves the blacks even further?

[MinisterVado]

Since this is my first post, i can't put up a link...i was hoping to see if this material i just stumbled across was similar to the one you've been discussing.....go to northerntool..com and run a search on silver tarp. i know the pictures they give aren't very big, but can you tell if it's somewhat comparable to the silver PVC stuff at MJTrends? (at this time, MJ has no silver PVC in stock for me to look at...)

let me know, because that a decent price for such a large amount.

i came across another site that offers silver nylon and silver spandex...how might that add up?

[MTyson]

I've seen some silver tarp and if it's the same large silver tarp I've seen on the web before than I'd have to say that it is nothing like the Silver PVC. It might work as a screen, but it's totally different than the SPVC.

[Gray Davis]

Sounds like some online vendors are selling out of this stuff? Is this the story everywhere? MTyson, what have you wrought?

[PerfectionHunter]

Originally posted by MTyson
PerfectionHunter, everyone is using clear matte laquer to get rid of the hot spot.

Thanks MTyson! Is there a particular brand of clear matte laquer people are using with the most success? Where can we find them?

[MTyson]

I think someone in this thread mentioned Krylon.

[barryecohen]

Originally posted by MinisterVado
Since this is my first post, i can't put up a link...i was hoping to see if this material i just stumbled across was similar to the one you've been discussing.....go to northerntool..com and run a search on silver tarp. i know the pictures they give aren't very big, but can you tell if it's somewhat comparable to the silver PVC stuff at MJTrends? (at this time, MJ has no silver PVC in stock for me to look at...)

let me know, because that a decent price for such a large amount.

i came across another site that offers silver nylon and silver spandex...how might that add up?

Looking at the image I don't think that the tarp material will work well. It looks ruff in the wrong way, it seems to have small waves in the material, these will show up when projecting an image, though the waves may disappear when the material is stretched over a frame. Where did you see the silver nylon. I've tried a number of silver spandex materials with mixed results. It usually has a sparkle as the light hits threads with higher reflectivity then those right next to them. I've found a silver acetate weave that works well but is only available in a 40 inch width and acetate is not a very durable fabric so I'm looking for nylon with a similar finish.

[alexgnei]

I built my first screen and since my theater is only 13 ft wide I thought that the PVC would be perfect. Over all I am quite happy with the results. I used two coats of matte laquer but am still seeing some hot spotting. I don't know if you can put too many layers of laquer on the screen, but I think that I'll try one more. I posted a picture of the screen on the digital projector gallery.

[alexgnei]

OOPS! Forgot to mention that I took several test pieces of the PVC and painted ME on one and ME with white primer on another. I did not care for the results, the PVC looked better by itself.

[MinisterVado]

Originally posted by barryecohen
Looking at the image I don't think that the tarp material will work well. It looks ruff in the wrong way, it seems to have small waves in the material, these will show up when projecting an image, though the waves may disappear when the material is stretched over a frame. Where did you see the silver nylon. I've tried a number of silver spandex materials with mixed results. It usually has a sparkle as the light hits threads with higher reflectivity then those right next to them. I've found a silver acetate weave that works well but is only available in a 40 inch width and acetate is not a very durable fabric so I'm looking for nylon with a similar finish.

right-o, i was kind of relieved to hear that the silver pvc was completely different...this tarp honestly does look like a big sheet of duct tape, and i could imagine the image resulting accordingly.

anyhoo, justmakeit..com has a pretty big selection of fabrics, but few are available in silver; the site has no easy way of searching explicitly for their available sivler fabrics; and there really arent many pics of the materials listed...still, i cant help but be curious.

since i only read this whole thread yesterday, i havent had the chance to see whats available at the local fabric stores. i may just wait until the MJTrends place gets their silver PVC back in stock (BTW, they gave me a date or March 1).

[Gray Davis]

"I posted a picture of the screen on the digital projector gallery."


I'll look for it, alexgnei, but you might want to post a direct link here as well...

Edit: found it.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php?photo=6224&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=501


Looks beautiful, alex. Any chance of an actual screenshot? Those white walls and ceiling must be hard to deal with, eh?

[alexgnei]

Originally posted by Gray Davis
"I posted a picture of the screen on the digital projector gallery."


I'll look for it, alexgnei, but you might want to post a direct link here as well...

Edit: found it.



Looks beautiful, alex. Any chance of an actual screenshot? Those white walls and ceiling must be hard to deal with, eh?

Gray thanks for the input, I don't have enough posts so I couldn't put in the link. I'm not really good at screen shots, but I'll try and get one posted. The white walls and ceiling were the main reason that I went for the PVC screen. It does a great job of cutting out the ambient light.

[Vlad_Dracule]

Cant wait till people start trying the Silver PVC with MissMan's prefabbed film he is attempting!

I think the SPVC would be a very good candidate for myself because I do not require any viewing angle and my PJ is currently table-mounted right in front of the seating area. Now I just have to wait till March 1st ;).

[Vlad_Dracule]

Not sure if someone already posted this but here is an alternative source of SPVC.....

http://www.naughtygirllingerie.com/Patent%20PVC_Latex_Sheeting_Snakeskins_Fabrics.htm

:D

EDIT: http://www.oakcraft.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_PVC_Fabric_89.html
for those of you across the ocean

[MinisterVado]

Originally posted by Vlad_Dracule
Not sure if someone already posted this but here is an alternative source of SPVC.....

:D

EDIT:
for those of you across the ocean

HA! yeah, i just happened across the former late last night...how splendid!

[Gray Davis]

Ouch! $10.75 a yard? Is it that expensive everywhere online?

[MinisterVado]

Gray Davis, i believe MJtrends, the site originally mentioned, has it for $9.50/yd. so to answer your question....most likely. did you find it for less in a store?

[MTyson]

You're getting a screen that compares well against the SilverStar for just $35.00 (a screen that costs more than some projectors). $35.00 for 3 yards of SPVC is pocket change in comparison to the SilverStar's price.

Find out how much the SilverStar would cost by the yard and you'll be happy at how cheap the SPVC really is. One foot of the SilverStar probably costs more than this whole SPVC screen project. The SilverStar would probably cost $400-$500 a yard (possibly more). You're getting a great deal with the SPVC. I feel like I cheated them by paying such a low price.

[Vlad_Dracule]

I paid more for the cloth I used to mask my setup (thinking I should have shopped around a bit more)!!!

I think the price is fairly reasonable. Now if only they would ship to Canada........ :(.

[MinisterVado]

Originally posted by Vlad_Dracule
Cant wait till people start trying the Silver PVC with MissMan's prefabbed film he is attempting!


now, what is this prefabbed film of which you speak?

I was actually considering adding a dash of grey to the laquer before painting it on the PVC. regardless, since im currently using a white wall, im certain whatever image results will still look oodles better than what i'm getting now.

[Vlad_Dracule]

As you may know MississippiMan and CMRA developed a screen that utilized a silver or mirrored backing and a slightly translucent coating of a paint we call "Mississippi Mud". MissMan found a unique manufacturer that was willing to analyze a test sample and then produce a film with the same properties as the MM topcoat.

If you are not familiar with this solution it appears to eliminate all hotspotting and viewing cone limits while still retaining an excellent image. The only downside is that it takes a fairly skilled person to paint such a screen so that is why so many are excited about the prefabbed film that is in the works.

I'd imagine that if this experiment succeeds you will have to be living in a cave to not hear about it! ;).

[MinisterVado]

now that's just beautiful....the only reason i was turned off to that "superplex" method is because my painting skills are somewhere in the area of a limbless blind man....

[Gray Davis]

Anyone else have a chance to check out the PVC? I suppose people are still waiting for their orders to arrive...

[Deacom]

While we're talking about the Superplex...

Has anyone tried to pull this silver PVC fabric tightly over a mirror? A lot of what Superplex brings is a plasma-like "glow" from the fact the some of the projected light gets through the top coat, then is reflected off the mirror. I seem to recall an early post in this thread saying that some light does get through this material.

Might be worth a try while we await MM's custom analyzed film.

- Deacom

[MTyson]

It wouldn't work for this SPVCc. It's too reflective and has a white fabric backing.

[MinisterVado]

Funny....now the naughtygirl site is out of stock!

[Gray Davis]

"Funny....now the naughtygirl site is out of stock!"

Do you think there really are enough people reading this thread to put a run on the material?
If there are, they sure aren't posting about their purchases. Anyone out there ordering PVC? I'm curious to know if that's why those websites are out of stock, AND I'd like to know what everyone thinks of PVC as a screen.
A fellow member here has been kind enough to send me some as a sample. As soon as I get it I'll let the rest of you know what I think.

[MTyson]

If anyone is looking for the SPVC and can't find it than check Ebay.

[argieX]

I have just ordered from this website:

http://www.oakcraft.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_PVC_Fabric_89.html

They still seem to have the fabric :D

[SlackerX]

http://www.mendels.com/fabrics_pvc.html

A bit more expensive, but they may have it in stock.

[edgebsl]

Ok ,I've been thinking of how to improve upon this idea and I tried the one suggestion--using a mirror does not increase the brightness at all.I slipped one behind my screen material and saw no dif.Maybe if you stretched it really hard..but I wouldnt recommend that.I am also intrigued by the film mississippi man and cmra are working on for their light fusion screen.My guess is that it would be too thick for the pvc and dull it down too much.What do you 2 guys think? I'm really dissatisfied with my clear coat.So i want to think this through before i make a 2nd attempt.
I am soemwhat intrigued by the lfs screen too.CMRA could you maybe post a pic with a matte white sample in the shot?(a sheet of white paper works pretty good) I'm curious to what kind of gain lfs puts out although you've said it to be less than the pvc. It seems im so close...everyone who has seen the screen has been impressed but i just dont know if i can ever get a permanent screen from using a spray bottle.

[orangezero]

Just wanted to see if i have this straight. The pvc material is 54inches (vertically) but can be streched to 58-63 depending on how tight you want it. It works to improve performance in ambient light and would still be brighter than blackout material at night?

My setup is currently a hugh slightly off-white wall that is not real flat. It looks okay right now but really washed out during the day and it seems the dark scenes aren't that great at night either. i have a piece of $9 parkland and wanted to try something that would make a noticable difference. My feeling is blackout cloth would improve things only slightly and not be worth the money for me.

so what i need for all this is some pvc fabric, something to mount it, and some spray paint to take away the hotspotting. right?

thanks for all the comments and the help. any chance of getting this stuff locally somewhere? would this be similar to what they make signs or banners out of? what do they normally use this for?

thanks
oz

[Gray Davis]

"any chance of getting this stuff locally somewhere? would this be similar to what they make signs or banners out of? what do they normally use this for"

I tried - and failed - to find PVC in Portland. All but one of the fabric shops I called had never heard of it. It is used for making "punk" (the quotation marks are to indicate irony) or "futuristic" looking clothing, and it is also used for making raincoats. I'm sure there are other uses, but those are the ones I've heard about.

[VideoGrabber]

edgebsl wrote:
> I'm really dissatisfied with my clear coat. <

This is disappointing news. Is this due to the diffculty of applying the matte lacquer uniformly enough that it's not visible? Or that the matte is ineffective at eliminating hotspotting?

I was about to order some SPVC and matte lacquer, based on your earlier promising evaluations, for use with my ceiling-mounted CRT PJ. Now it sounds as if that may be a waste of time and money.

Is the fabric backing capable of taking paint, in case the front doesn't work out?

- Tim

[orangezero]

okay, thanks for the reply mr. davis.

never thought about it, but perhaps it would look good with the projector on the floor? am i right that up high their is noticable hotspotting from the seated position? i think any workable solution without painting/spray painting would be much better, only because i painted houses for about 10years and don't want to deal with it. i think it would be very difficult to get it uniform for a frosted look but i could be wrong.

i may run to a banner place today and see what they have. i do like the idea of being able to stretch it a little though.

so, has anyone bought the stuff off ebay?

thanks

[edgebsl]

Its very succesful at hotspot eliminating...Im just a bad painter lol!
Ask shedrock what he thought of the clear coat.He seemed to have better success with it.My friends think the screen is incredible .I just look at it all the time and i notice the foggy spots where i did a bad job.

[MTyson]

Edgebsi, that is the main reason why I have not sprayed my screen with the clear coat. I am a terrible painter and don't want to ruin my screen.

Luckily for me I have a table mounted projector and the hotspot is at the bottom middle of the screen. Once I sit down it virtually disappears and is not distracting to me or anyone else who has watched movies on it.

[techgazer]

I have tried this screen and I just registered to give my thumbs up. This screen is da bomb. Its performance under ambient lighting conditions is just incredible! I used PVC to make my frame and added a 3/25" Pewter Mist Flat Tileboard (Home Depot), sprayed black on the rough side.

I tested my 80"x45" screen with both a 200 lumens/100:1 and a 1700 lumens/350:1 table mounted LCD projectors, and the ambient light viewing (both day and night) was great. I loved the blacks.

Before purchasing the material from MJTrends, I spent about $4 on a Hallmark matt silver gift wrap paper (15012 69004); this paper closely mimics the SPVC but has more hotspotting. I used the paper to convince myself that I could live with a silver screen.

[Shedrock]

I never got my matte spray coat to be perfect either. The spray is hard to apply evenly because it is so darn clear. But, it was good enough for me to live with. I could only see the slight uneven coating during bright solid shots such as a panoramic sky, or a product logo. I consider the fabric itself to be unwatchable without the coating, so I still highly recommend it.

My SilverStar has a perfect viewing surface over the entire screen; really, it is flawless. I also paid around 20 times the price for the Vutec as opposed to the silver PVC screen.


Techgazer -- I'm glad to see that you tried the SPVC and had a good result! :)

[CMRA]

Originally posted by Shedrock


My SilverStar has a perfect viewing surface over the entire screen; really, it is flawless. I also paid around 20 times the price for the Vutec as opposed to the silver PVC screen.




Matt, you have had your Silverstar for some time. How do you like it with your LCD PJ? In what ways is the picture improved? Are there any drawbacks? Has any friend brought over a DLP or Dila? If so, how do they compare?
Your'e at the top of the food chain now and "we gots to know". Thanks, CMRA

[Shedrock]

Originally posted by CMRA
Matt, you have had your Silverstar for some time. How do you like it with your LCD PJ? In what ways is the picture improved? Are there any drawbacks? Has any friend brought over a DLP or Dila? If so, how do they compare?
Your'e at the top of the food chain now and "we gots to know". Thanks, CMRA

At the risk of running this thread off topic....here it goes:

I don't think that the SilverStar is "the perfect" screen, however, it is a very high quality product. It arrives completely assembled, with simple mounting brackets for the wall. All you need is the cash, and about 1/2 hour of time to hang it, and you're done.

Any do-it-yourself screen will probably be much cheaper, but require more time. Also, whenever someone builds a project, it is easy to focus on the defects, even if you are the only person that knows they are there.

I have seen the SilverStar with both LCD projection, and a DLP unit; both looked better than a matte white, or flat grey screen. The silver metallic concept does work well. However, I would disagree with Tryg's review on the issue of ambient light rejection. The SilverStar looks fantastic in a blackened room, the screen just disappears into an "open window" effect. Turn on even one light though, and black level is instantly raised. Not unwatchable, but the "shock and awe" value falls quickly. There is still some room for improvement in screen picture quality and contrast enhancement, either from a commercial company, or continued development in DIY materials and techniques. The SilverStar is good, but the door is still open.

I may upgrade my pj this year, but I have no plans to change screens at this time. (in fact, I rarely visit the screen forum anymore)

more opinions from actual SilverStar owners can be found in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2449828#post2449828

[lesko]

This is my first post here, so hello to everybody...
techgazer,.... you said that you have used this "fogged pvc" with a 1700 lumens projector and it work great, but did you have it above the screen or on the floor? It seems to me that would be the only way to use it with out getting any hotspots? Any direct hit of light head on would make hotspots right?

thanks,
lesko

[orangezero]

lesko,

no personal experience with it yet, but that is what i am thinking. I was planning on making a shelf about eight or ten feet up. I have a vaulted ceiling that is 12 or 13 ft tall so i have lots to work with. I don't know if this would make the hotspotting more noticable than having it at 4ft or even if i put it close to the ground. any ideas?

thanks,

[orangezero]

sorry for all the questions,

I just came across some "stretch lycra spandex" that is 58 inches wide and is four-way stretchable. it is a little more expensive at about $18 a yard but would this stuff be the same thing?

in a pvc/ patent leather
77% polyester 3% lycra 20%pvc
4-way stretch
super stretch, durable

thats what else it says. thanks for the help. trying to find a place in the midwest to order it from.

[techgazer]

lesko,

I had the projector below the screen. Direct hit definitely makes a hotspot.

[butter08]

I grabbed the 40% off coupon and headed to joanne's fabrics to build a new silver screen. Just like orangezero I only found the silver spandex material. I know that no one responded to his post, but I am hoping someone might be able to solve the mystery. Is this spandex ok to use for the screen?

[lesko]

butter08
go get a yard or so and try it out, that's what I'm doing as I type this ...I'm going with the mm formula over the pvc but after i wrap it around the temp frame first, it seem ok to paint on but who knows...One good bump might make it chip or fall off after it dry's
well see..
lesko

[butter08]

thanks lesko, I hope that you can post your results.

[SlackerX]

... until the end of March---


http://www.mendels.com/fabrics_pvc.html

They have every color of PVC fabric, including silver, and they claim that it looks like liquid paint.

Their standard price is $13.69/yard, but everything they sell is an additional 25% off until March 31st.

*Also, I'm assuming that this is the type of paint that you're using to dull the finish: http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/tes/tes1260.htm ?

I'm doing some experiments with this silver fabric, some mirrored acrylic (ala SD/MM) and also silver paint (such as the type Tryg used in his comparison). I'm even going to try out mirrored acrylic with silver paint (and perhaps silver mixed with ME or some other combination) dulled with a number of flat, clear lacquer coatings to help with hotspotting. This will be in an attempt to produce a higher gain SD/MM type screen. I found a vendor that sells 40x36 mirrored acrylic pieces for $25.00+shipping on eBay. Thanks to all of your posts--and those of CMRA and MississippiMan, my experimentation materials should cost me less than $70.00 for all of these items. Whatever combination I decide to use will end up costing me within a range of less than $70-160.00 for a full screen when I'm done. I should be getting my projector (most likely a lower lumen model) at the end of this month so I hope to post my results soon...

[SlackerX]

Has anyone tried something like placing a piece of anti-glare acrylic/plexi over this cloth to see what the effect would be? Just curious...

[butter08]

Lesko, how did your screen turn out?

[lesko]

butter08
It didn't hold that well, next i'm going to try to scuff up the pvc a lttle. I'm also going to keep the plywood that i painted the pvc on and attach the frame to it, that way it will stop any movement of the screen when it's up...
I was also thinking of just keeping the pvc behind a sheet of plexy glass instead of Silver Metallic paint and putting the formula of top coat on the other side...anyway well see!

[recar]

Thanks slackerX. I just ordered some for an x1. And thanks everyone for your trials and info.

[SlackerX]

Cool. Let us know how it turns out with your DLP based X1. I'll be using an LCD based projector in my experiments.

[recar]

I will. I'm hoping to get better viewing in ambient light conditions. I'm looking foward to the results of your experimentations. I was going to try the sm/mm mix on a wall but this seems a safer route for now.
I'm also probably going to go with the da lite hi power .

[MinisterVado]

thanks SlackerX; that mjtrends place still had no stock, and i have needs, dammit!

[recar]

I just got off the phone w/ mendels.... to see if about their stock and my order . (It Shipped today :) ) only one yard left till the 24th of march, but discount will still apply.
She said that they (Betty and Naomi) wonder why they ran out of it again,it's been selling lately. So I told her about this thread and avsforum.com :D. Betty said she"ll take a look here.

I also asked if they can get it larger then 56" . No luck

[Gray Davis]

Thanks to the kind generosity of one of the forum members, I recently received a sample of PVC fabric in the mail. It's a long rectangular strip that had been treated with 2 coats of the Krylon matte spray. I carefully taped it to a piece of cardboard and left it alone for a couple of days to stretch out the wrinkles (any wrinkle or crease in PVC, no matter HOW small or slight, is VERY noticeable under a projector beam, so the first thing anyone wanting to experiment with the fabric should do is get rid of them.)

My setup: A Parkland Poly-wall screen, approximately 82 inches wide. A table-mounted Z1 set at approximately the bottom of the screen. Total light control. I taped the PVC test sample to various portions of the screen and observed the results.

Here are my impressions:

The GOOD: Whites that can be at least as bright as those produced by my Parkland. Colors that looked as accurate as those produced by the Parkland. (Some members have noted a slight blue tint with PVC. Under my setup I did not see this. In fact I would say that, under the right conditions - more on this later - the PVC and Parkland were nearly indistinguishable from each other with color rendition.)
Blacks that can be better than those produced by the Parkland. The best description I can come up with for the improvement is the word "solid." The biggest flaw with the Parkland in my setup is that, in SOME DVDs (not all) dark scenes or portions of the image can looked washed-out and very one-dimensional. I can tell I'm looking at a flat, projected image with no depth. Under some conditions this washed-out effect was greatly improved by the PVC. Example: there are many shadowy/dark scenes in the movie "Aliens." The Parkland looked like it had a gray film over the picture, while the PVC looked like the gray film had been cleaned away to reveal a deeper, darker image. I would not say that more detail was actually revealed, but what detail there was stood out more sharply with the increased black level. This, for me, is the single biggest improvement that could be offered by the PVC.

(As I have total light control I was not concerned about viewing with lights on and did not test for this.)

The BAD: You'll notice I used the words "can" and "could" a lot when talking about the good PVC can do. Unfortunately - in my setup - all the positives are simply outweighed by a single negative.
As others have noted, PVC simply does not reflect light evenly. My sample came pre-treated with two coats of Krylon, but this was still a serious problem. I noticed that the image in the center/lower half of the screen was much brighter than the upper half. Whites appeared to benefit from this - if you could ignore the shift in brightness - but blacks suffered - looking even more washed out than they did with the Parkland.
It took me a while to notice this, as it can be camouflaged in some scenes and would be less noticeable depending on where I attached the sample on the screen. But when I projected a solid blue image, the bottom of the PVC sample, that is the portion closest to the center of the screen, was quite bright, but grew noticeably and progressively darker the closer it got to the top of the screen. It was extremely uneven. (If I mounted the sample nearer the sides of the screen this effect was not as bad.)

My conclusions: First I should acknowledge again that I am only dealing with a relatively small sample of PVC, not an entire screen. However I think the problems I noticed would apply just as well - if not even more so - had I been dealing with an entire screen. As they stand, the drawbacks to the PVC prevent me from using it in my setup. However, the positives are such that I would like to find a way to overcome the drawbacks, if that were possible, which I'm not sure it is. My projector as I said is setup on a low table - perhaps if I had it setup differently the uneven light reflection could be negated. However I intend to mount it on the ceiling and the impression I've gotten from this thread is that the problem of uneven light reflection or hot spotting is even worse with a ceiling-mounted setup. When I do ceiling mount my projector I will try the PVC sample again. My Parkland is mounted half-hazardly - I just nailed the top of the screen to the bottom of a beam and the rest hangs free. I intend to fully mount my screen and will re-test the PVC sample again to see if this makes any difference (though I doubt it will). It is possible that the uneven reflections are somehow exaggerated under my particular setup and as always, YMMV.

Thanks to everyone who keeps experimenting to find a better DIY screen, and a very special thanks to the member who was kind enough to send me the PVC sample at his own expense.

[Shedrock]

Nice review Gray! I appreciate that you spoke of both the good, and the bad.

I agree with you that the PVC with 2 coats of Krylon clear matte spray still has a large "hot-area" in the middle of the screen. However, if you could view a full screen picture, you would see that it is actually very watchable. I would like for someone to come up with a different coating to apply that would completely even the brightness, but I don't really expect a perfect solution to the problem will be found. More experimentation is needed.

I understand your comparison between the Parkland and the PVC. For a time, I had both a full size Parkland, and a PVC screen, and I could swap them in about one minute. After getting used to both screens, I felt that the Parkland was too bland, and the PVC was too bold. I did appreciate the more dynamic picture of the PVC (especially for darker movies), but I had to deal with the limited viewing angles, and the hot area. After using the PVC exclusively for about 3 weeks, I tried using the Parkland, but hated the picture. I never went back to the Parkland again.

Disclaimer: To each his own. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Don't follow me, I'm lost.

[VideoGrabber]

Shedrock commented:
> I don't really expect a perfect solution to the problem will be found. <

I can think of one sure solution to the SPVC hot-spotting problem... curve the screen. That may not be feasible for many, but at least the fabric makes it possible. You may even be able to skip the matte lacquer application then.

- Tim

[Gray Davis]

Shedrock: Do you think that additional coats of Krylon would improve the uneven reflection? Maybe I'll buy a can and see. I could definitely live with a slightly duller image if it meant a more even image.
I understand your point about looking at a full screen versus looking at a sample. When you have a small sample against a large backdrop of something else, you tend to judge the sample exclusively in context with the larger backdrop. Apparent flaws in one may seem more visible under that context.
You mention limited viewing areas - I forgot to note that from what I could tell by moving the sample around, this didn't seem to be a problem in my setup, so that's one thing I don't have to worry about.

VideoGrabber - I went out to a theater a while ago and was surprised to see that the screen was not a straight rectangle but curved out slightly at the corners. I didn't notice if the screen was silver but I suppose this is what you mean by a curved screen? I wonder if it was done for the same reason you suggest doing it, to reduce hotspotting. Even so, I didn't like the look of this particular screen and found it too distracting.

One thing I totally forgot about is the strange black net material Mtyson has mentioned, that he uses to even out the reflection on his PVC screen. I might try this to see what it looks like.

I didn't mean to suggest in my mini-review that I was completely giving up on PVC - the positives are such that it is definitely worth at least a few more attempts to overcome the negatives.

[MinisterVado]

Has anyone tried that Behr Crystal Clear Satin clear finish as a solution? once my pvc comes in, im thinkin i'll go that route, but im going to mix in a small amt of flat grey and an even smaller amt of silver metallic, just for shits n giggles. i'll let y'all know how it turns out.

[Prof.]

Hi all,

I'm a long time lurker, looking in on this forum from time to time.
This thread has given me ideas at times for my own screen design that I've been working on for about a year. I've tried countless materials to try and obtain my objective.... A very high gain screen with reasonable viewing cone, suitable for low output projectors.
I tried the silver PVC on one of my test panels, and experienced similar problems that several have mentioned, including hotspotting and uneveness of the clear matt spray.
I recently found a material that alleviated these problems, and I would like to pass on this info.
It may have already been suggested, and I missed it. If thats the case, then I apologise.
What I found that worked for my application was to cover the PVC with clear MATT acrylic sheet. This material is available in 2mm. and 3mm. thick sheets. I used the 2mm. and it worked very well.
Some suppliers have it available in a "double" matt i.e. matt both sides, and this would help to give even better light distribution, particularly for high light output projectors.
If you can get hold of a couple of samples of the product, then it might well be worth trying.

[VideoGrabber]

Prof. wrote:
> What I found that worked for my application was to cover the PVC with clear MATT acrylic sheet. This material is available in 2mm. and 3mm. thick sheets. I used the 2mm. and it worked very well. <

(should be "matte")

An interesting suggestion! Thanks for sharing, and welcome to the land of the non-lurkers. :) Do you have any pointers to suppliers? And would this be economical? (E.g., how much do 4x8 sheets cost?) Are these thin/flexible enough that they can be shipped rolled? If not, then shipping costs would be horrendous.

> It worked very well. <

Could you expound a bit more on the efficacy of this surface treatment?

I noticed that some acrylic sheeting is also available in a high transmissivity translucent version. Since the problem with SPVC is hot-spotting due to the high coherence of the reflected light, if a truly uniform matte surface isn't enough to tame it, translucency may offer enough diffusion to solve the problem, at a cost of some gain.

- Tim

[Prof.]

Actually Tim, "matte" can also be spelled "matt" just as we spell "Theater" "Theatre" !!...... Having cleared that up, two suppliers of this material are Plaskolite and Acrilix, but there are a number of others. I believe Polymer Shapes in the US would have it also.
I bought 2mm. Acrilix here in Aus. and it cost $70.00 for an 8 x 4. The material is very flexible, but you can't roll it up.

As far as the efficiency of the matt acrylic..... If you place it on top of a newspaper, it looks very clear and the print can be easily read. Lift the acrylic a few inches away, and it appears to become like etched glass.
This has the effect of diffusing the sheen from the SPVC without losing any of the reflective qualities.

That's an interesting point you mentioned about translucent acrylics. There is one that I have seen called "clear opal". This is not as dense as most opals, and would introduce a small amount of white to the screen, thereby helping to improve the viewing cone.
The only problem is that it's not available in a matt finish, and you would need the matt acrylic on top of it as well.

[SlackerX]

Wow! There is definitely a convergence of ideas happening here--which is very cool...

I asked just a few days ago if anyone had attempted to use an acrylic sheet in front of the PVC to cut down the glare. I purchased a piece from a local art supply store/framing shop for my experiments. It's the type of anti-glare acrylic used for framing posters or pictures. I, of course, have not had a chance to try it out yet as my PVC has not even arrived and I don't yet have my projector either. It's still great to see that people are thinking along the same lines.

There is also a convergence of sorts happening with the MississippiMan's and CMRA's LFS idea, but I think some of us are also attempting to help projectors with low light output by achieve a brighter picture and also help all projectors to deal better with ambient light. We may actually be able to get the best of both worlds out of this. Please keep up the great work everyone and tell us of your progress. Thanks!

I'm really wishing now that I already had my projector, but I won't have it until around the end of this month to the beginning of next month. Until then, I'll just have to keep contributing in my own way...

It may be worth it to find some matte acrylic and clear acrylic in a couple of different thicknesses. We could try and place them in different orders with different thicknesses (e.g. thicker clear acrylic with a thin layer of antiglare acrylic or translucent--even possibly slightly "frosted"--acrylic in front of it, etc.) in front of the PVC, or even a third mirrored acrylic piece instead, in order to find out what the best order of materials would be. This could have some really interesting results that may end up very different from the painting methods that others are employing. Some of the results may also be quite similar to LFS depending on the combination, order and thicknesses of materials used. Don't forget to use small test samples when you are able to in order to keep the costs down! That's what I'm trying to do.

[CMRA]

Originally posted by SlackerX

It may be worth it to find some matte acrylic and clear acrylic in a couple of different thicknesses. We could try and place them in different orders with different thicknesses (e.g. thicker clear acrylic with a thin layer of antiglare acrylic or translucent--even possibly slightly "frosted"--acrylic in front of it, etc.) in front of the PVC, or even a third mirrored acrylic piece instead, in order to find out what the best order of materials would be. This could have some really interesting results that may end up very different from the painting methods that others are employing. Some of the results may also be quite similar to LFS depending on the combination, order and thicknesses of materials used. Don't forget to use small test samples when you are able to in order to keep the costs down! That's what I'm trying to do.

Slacker and company:
I'm pleased to read you guys haven't given up on this PVC solution. You make DIY proud. Maybe even one of MM's proposed film overlays could prove out. Just a thought. Keep up the great adventure! CMRA

[Vlad_Dracule]

Originally posted by Prof.
There is one that I have seen called "clear opal". This is not as dense as most opals, and would introduce a small amount of white to the screen, thereby helping to improve the viewing cone.
The only problem is that it's not available in a matt finish, and you would need the matt acrylic on top of it as well.

Hmm almost sounds like the MM topcoat (well..... if it had a matte finish).

[Prof.]

I believe you guys on this thread are on the right track to produce an excellent, top quality DIY screen, that is comparable to any commercial screen.

I think the answer is in using commercially available, machine made materials, that are constant in their finish, colour and thickness.

Using any paint or spray-on as a screen material, brings about a number of variables, including uneveness of application, streaking, roller marks, etc.., and variations in mixtures and thickness of the painted finish, and variations between screens.

Having said that, I don't believe that SPVC is the "be all and end all" of screen materials. There are countless different potential materials out there, and if we keep trying diiferent ideas, eventually someone will find the ultimate materials.

Just recently, I found yet another material called 100% Polyester Foil. This stuff looks like liquid silver on a dress material. It has two way stretch, and comes in 1200mm. wide rolls.
I believe it's used to make Performers costumes that are a glimmery silver.

Initial tests of this material show a significant gain over the SPVC, when it's covered with the matt acrylic.
I'm currently in the process of making up a full size screen using this material.
I don't have a website where you can see it at the moment, but if you do a "Google" search for "100% Polyester Foil", you should be able to find it.

[Gray Davis]

"Initial tests of this material show a significant gain over the SPVC, when it's covered with the matt acrylic."

This sentence is confusing. Do you mean the Foil shows a gain over the PVC when the PVC is covered with matt acrylic? Or do you mean that the Foil shows a gain over the PVC when the FOIL is covered with matt acrylic?

Either way I'd be glad to know the results of your testing with the Foil. Does it hotspot the way PVC does? I'm assuming at this point that anything shiny and silver is probably going to reflect light unevenly to some degree.

[Prof.]

Gray Davis,

Sorry for the confusion.... I should have mentioned that ALL my current tests are with bright shiny silver materials, and ALL are being covered with a matt acrylic top cover. They can't be used on their own because of severe hot-spotting.
Whatever you use to reduce or eliminate hot-spotting, (whether it's clear matt spray or matt acrylic) will have an adverse affect on the overall gain of the screen. That's why I'm using bright silver as the background materials

Placing the two test panels side by side, i.e. the SPVC and the Foil, and BOTH covered with matt acrylic, the Foil panel shows a significant increase in brightness (therefore gain ) over the SPVC panel.

My new screen, made with the Foil and matt acrylic, will be completed in the next couple of days, so I'll give you a report of how it performs when I've run a few tests.

[VideoGrabber]

I don't recall if anyone indicated whether the backing material was suitable for painting? (i.e., a reversible combo day/night screen).

- Tim

[SlackerX]

Originally posted by Prof.
My new screen, made with the Foil and matt acrylic, will be completed in the next couple of days, so I'll give you a report of how it performs when I've run a few tests.

That sounds very promising. Please post some screenshots!

[PerfectionHunter]

Originally posted by Prof.
Gray Davis,

Sorry for the confusion.... I should have mentioned that ALL my current tests are with bright shiny silver materials, and ALL are being covered with a matt acrylic top cover. They can't be used on their own because of severe hot-spotting.
Whatever you use to reduce or eliminate hot-spotting, (whether it's clear matt spray or matt acrylic) will have an adverse affect on the overall gain of the screen. That's why I'm using bright silver as the background materials

Placing the two test panels side by side, i.e. the SPVC and the Foil, and BOTH covered with matt acrylic, the Foil panel shows a significant increase in brightness (therefore gain ) over the SPVC panel.

My new screen, made with the Foil and matt acrylic, will be completed in the next couple of days, so I'll give you a report of how it performs when I've run a few tests.

Prof, let us know how this goes. It sounds like a very exciting development with a lot of potential!

[VQracer]

Wow, I just read this whole thread. Looks like I'll be jumping on this bandwagon, hopefully we can find a solution to the hotspots.

Victor :eek:

[CMRA]

I really like the read of this thread. You guys keep moving forward. The thought: This is something beyond the ordinary and the potential is extraordinary. Have any of you considered bringing your solution(s) to the Canuck shootout? Bet it would be an eye opener. Happy St. Pat's.

[MinisterVado]

http://store.yahoo.com/fauxpainting/2402.html

my SPVC came, and im looking to possibly try this stuff on it. it's a bit expensive, but a friend of mine will likely go in on it with me. anyone else ever heard of, or even used, this stuff?

[Rudy81]

It looks like MJTrends.com finally got the fabric back in stock.

In case you are interested, I beleive this is the material.

http://www.mjtrends.com/silver-pvc-fabric.asp

[Prof.]

I have had a major disaster with the Poly Foil.... I'm so disappointed.

When I unfolded the material to fit it to the frame, the silver surfaces had somehow stuck together and I had to literally pull them apart.
In the process of doing this, sections of the silver transferred from one surface to the other, leaving lighter patches over parts of the material.
This is some weird material !!

I also noticed that there were creases where the material had been folded, you could see fold lines across the surface.

Not to be daunted, I stretched and stapled the material over the frame, hoping that at least the fold lines might disappear.

I left it overnight, and the next morning, couldn't believe my eyes.
The creases themselves had gone, but in its place were what looked like "snail trails". Evidently the folds had transferred silver as well .
ARGGHH !!! What a mess.

Being the eternal optomist, and hoping for the best.... I fixed the matt acrylic on top and setup the screen, hoping that all these blotches and snail trails wouldn't be tooo obvious.
HUH ! what a joke.... in light scenes all you could see were strange background patterns across the screen !!!

I also noticed that there was now a colour imbalance, with a stronger push to yellows and greens, and blacks had lost their intensity

Just to add salt into the wound..... stretching the material over the frame had opened up the weave, and in the process it had lost some of its previous brightness, infact you could see the image on the back of the material.

I tried putting black plastic sheeting on the backside of the frame, but it wasn't much help.

After letting off a few expletives, and taking a coffee break..... in sheer desperation I decided to try my alternative screen, which is a number of the silver posterboard sheets stuck onto a sheet of MDF.

This was my saving grace.....It looked fantastic !! ( except for all the joins ). A brilliant image, ( approx. 30% increase in gain on my existing screen ) with well balanced colours and very rich blacks. Whites were absolutely blinding.

I believe that this is the silver material to use. It just needs to be available in bigger sheets or rolls.

I'm now making a world wide dedicated search to find this in the appropriate size.

For your interest, I've included a website in the US where you can see this material.
I bought my sheets from a major Newsagency / stationery shop.

http://www.misterart.com/store/view.cfm?cat_id=451&group_id=7977&store=001

[VideoGrabber]

Prof. wrote:
> I'm now making a world wide dedicated search to find this in the appropriate size. <

I hope you can locate it. PACON, based in Wisconsin, here in the US is one manufacturer, but they only currently supply the small 22x28" sheets. In addition to the paperboard stock, they also offer it on a 4-ply posterboard backing. It seems to me that they must make them larger during manufacture, then cut them to size, but perhaps that's wrong?

In any event, at 40 cents/sq-ft the price is certainly right. :) You may want to drop them a line at: sales@pacon.com. [I see they also make poster rolls, in 36" wide x 1000' lengths, but nothing with their silver-foil coating.]

- Tim

[VideoGrabber]

Another company I noticed that specializes in metallic foil rolls (both bright silver and dull silver), as well as mylar (probably TOO shiney) is
hygloss.com (http://www.hygloss.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=126). Currently only in 26" wide by 6' ($5) or 25' ($10) rolls.

Falk Enterprises (http://www.falkenterprises.com/Catalog/metallic_foil_rolls_114214_products.htm) carries small rolls (5' x 30"). At a little over $1/roll.

ColdFoil.com (http://www.coldfoil.com/products/foil.htm) does rolls up to 39.5" wide.

It's apparent that there are a number of producers with the capability to uniformly apply silverized metallic foil surfaces (ranging from bright to dull) to various substrates. But they're currently catering to the small piece market. If samples of one of these (like the PACON) could be proven to yield good results, we might then have to approach a manufacturer and try to convince them that a market existed for larger product. I'm not sure we have anywhere near enough clout (numbers) to get them interested though.

- Tim

[Stasulos]

What's the latest result on laquer brand that is best for coating silver PVC cloth with?

Thanks

[argieX]

I finally recieved my PVC :D

Just doing some quick tests without matt laquer showing a great potential.

But how do you get all the curls out of the fabric ??

I´m thinking of cluing it down to a board with ordinary wallpaper glue, and then get the wrinkles out with a wet sponge, it shouldn´t damage the finish.

Then I will try to do a couple of misty coats of matt laquer to get a rough finish instead of a perfectly flat finish.

That should help with the viewing cone and hotspotting.

Prof: When will we see some pics. of your silver pvc/matt acryllic screens ???

[Shedrock]

Originally posted by argieX
I finally recieved my PVC :D

Just doing some quick tests without matt laquer showing a great potential.

But how do you get all the curls out of the fabric ??

I�m thinking of cluing it down to a board with ordinary wallpaper glue, and then get the wrinkles out with a wet sponge, it shouldn�t damage the finish.

Then I will try to do a couple of misty coats of matt laquer to get a rough finish instead of a perfectly flat finish.

That should help with the viewing cone and hotspotting.

Prof: When will we see some pics. of your silver pvc/matt acryllic screens ???

Stretch the fabric, and let it sit for a couple of days, the creases and wrinkles will work themselves out; then you can apply any coatings. I suggest making some test samples first.

Have fun!:)

[Rudy81]

MJtrends.com delivery was very quick. I just got my PVC material and will try to work with it tomorrow. My plan is to use about a yard to put up on my current screen in order to do some comparisson with the Parkland. As soon as I have it up I will post some pictures. BTW, I am interested to see if a ceiling hung projector will produce hot spotting with the PVC.

[Prof.]

Tim,

Thanks for the links to the websites..... Those rolls of silver wrap would be ideal if they were wider.

I've found the same problem here. The widest roll that's available is only 790mm (31").

I have contacted three manufacturers here, who make counter rolls and wrapping paper, to see if they are able to supply it in wider rolls, or maybe, they cut them down to those widths from larger rolls.
I'm still awaiting replies.

I will also contact Pacon on the posterboard, and see if they can help with larger sizes or rolls.

argieX,

I'm not using the SPVC / matt acrylic screen..... It doesn't have enough gain for my application, and the search goes on for material similar to the silver posterboard.

Also, I don't have a camera, and have to borrow a friends camera when he's able to loan it to me.

[Rudy81]

So far I'm rather disappointed with the Metallic Silver PVC material. I used about a 3 foot piece to make a sample board I could mount on my screen so I could make side by side comparrisons. Out of the box, this material will not work due to some very serious hot spotting. Also, it is terrible with any ambient light due to it's sheen. On a positive note, the area just outside of the hot spot is terrific. Great contrast, rich colors and great blacks. However, that is only on the area just outside of the hotspot. Interestingly, as I move the sample further out toward the edges of the screen, it is not nearly as good as the Parkland. My pj is a ceiling mounted Sharp Z9000 in a light controlled room. Current screen is a Parkland DIY.

Positive:
- Great colors just outside the hot spot area.
- Better blacks near screen center, again, outside hot spot.

Negative:
- Very serious hot spot in the center of the screen when seated in the middle of the room. Of course, the hot spot moves when you change seats.
- As you move away from the hot spot, the farther you go, the more the advantages disappear. Toward the outer edges, the Parkland is better.
- Toward edges, the screen seems to add a blue tint to images.

This little experiment just showed me how good the Parkland is for a DIY screen.

When I get a chance I will try some of the ideas for reducing the sheen.

I edited my post after reviewing the entire thread. My experience was identical to what most found with a table mounted pj. I also forgot to more clearly say that the material seems to reflect light unevenly, at least at this stage with a big hot spot on the lower middle of the screen area. As I said, as you move farther away from the hot spot, things initially get really good, but then worsen at the outer edges of the picture. This could be due to the overwhelming hot spot...it is very bright and my pj is not that bright. I sure do like the rich colors and better blacks produced in some areas of the picture, so I will try some of the other ideas.

[Prof.]

Rudy,

If you can get hold of a sample of matt acrylic, and place that on top of the SPVC, I think you will find that it will remove the hot-spot and even things up a bit.

[Rudy81]

Prof:

I am first going to try some materials that easily overlay on my sample board and then will try the matte paint last. The paint option will make it very difficult to apply evenly on a full screen size, at least I think it would be difficult to do without professional equipement, paint booth, etc.

I want to try the tulle material and I remember seeing rolls of a clear "matte" very thin plastic at the fabric store. I'll give those a try. I won't waste time with current screen shots, since it looks just like some of the screen shots others posted on this thread.

[argieX]

Prof:

How much gain does the pvc loose with the matt acrylic ?

It still has a lot higher gain than a bo cloth right ?

Rudy81:

This is exactly what I saw, but I still thinks the pvc has the possibility to be great.
I will try a coat of matt laquer and see if I can get a rough finish to diffuse the light some more.

Maybe the pearlescent paint can be used, it has a matt finish........

Regards
argieX

[orangezero]

hey guys,

never really seems to be mentioned after one post previously, but the best way i've read to reduce hotspotting is to curve the screen. the only reason i bought silver is to be able to watch it during the day. otherwise i don't know if i would notice an improvement with blackout material over my white wall.

spraying something over this seems silly unless you have a lot of time to experiment or a lot of money to use on extra fabric. if i had either of these i would just buy some pro stuff.

hope i dont' sound like im' putting you guys down, i think the experimentation is really interesting. i guess after seeing it and with my experience with paint, getting an even surface will be almost impossible. this will be something you are going to constantly look at and the imperfections will eventually drive you crazy.

it does have its uses. after watching it on my wall for a few days i started noticing the hotspotting, or at least it didn't bother me nearly as much.

I've noticed the edges are very much darker than the center and the hotpsot is completely related to your relative position to the pj. my 11ft long piece is surprisingly uniform in color when observing it without an image on it. i would hate to ruin that with paint.

this leads me back to the curved screen. thinking up ideas and reading about torus screens. even a single curve in the horizontal direction take away most of the problems.

wish i could get it bigger than 55inches wide though.

[argieX]

orangezero:

In my new HT room I can put the pj about 4,5m from the screen, that will give me a 140x250cm wide screen.

If I curve it, it will have to curve nearly 18cm in the sides.

You draw a circle from the pj to the screen and make the screen that curve right ?

Or do you draw a circle from the viewer to the screen ?

Wouldn´t that introduce some geometry problems too ?

argieX

[orangezero]

haven't done it yet, but geometry problems could be there. i'm okay with minor geometric problems (pincusion or barreling) if i can watch a bright image during the day. everyone seems to indicate that you want the circle arc taken from the front of the pj but that may be too much of a curve for geometric reasons and asthetics.

sorry, i'm in inches and ft so bear with me. my 10ft wide screen is supposed to be about 9inches out on the sides, but i'm thinking of lowering it to about 7 or so. if you are going to make it curved, do think about making it curved horizontally and vertically. the vertical curve in mine and in most is very small at about 3 inches or so, should be less than half of the horizontal i believe but you may want to double check.

just read a post about someone not being happy with just a horizontal curve. high gain material like this probably would have changed his mind as all he was doing was creating geometric problems (if it was just a white screen) instead of reducing hotspotting as we are attempting. so we are shooting for different goals and will be happy with the same results i suspect.

so without knowing anything else i would drop about to about 14cm or so horizontally and 5-7cm vertically.

does that make sense?

im' just testing this stuff out now. most old toric threads i've read use an airtight screen with a backing so its closed off and then they use a fan to suck out air continuously. this produces the ideal curve. if you can imagine a double curved screen without a fan, the center would bow out vertically very slightly because of the edges pulling on it. several have mentioned that this is not a noticeable issue when viewing so i'm going to go without for now. id rather not have to "power" my screen also everytime i wanted to watch something. i'm also not convinced the material would move that much since it seems to be somewhat breathable and i would have a hard time making a vacuum.

i'm counting on the edges holding most of the curve. i've read that if you make the screen slightly bigger so the image doesn't go all the way to the edges it turns out better.

i've got the next two days off and hopefully i'll get it done.

hope that helps.

orange

[Gray Davis]

I admire the hard work of those willing to curve their screens to deal with this problem, but curving my screen isn't something I want to do, so I'm hoping that one of the other possible solutions pans out. Part of what's nice about dealing with fabrics is you can avoid some of the hassles of dealing with paint. Having to curve your screen to tame reflections puts fabric in the same boat as paint for me, but I wish you luck in your efforts, orange.

[Prof.]

ArgieX,

The SPVC with the matt acrylic on top is still a higher gain screen than blackout cloth.

At a rough guess, I would say that you lose about 15% of the gain of the SPVC on its own.

Orange,

My current screen is a curved silver screen.... I believe it's almost essential to have a curved screen if it's silver, otherwise you will get hot-spotting.
Even curving the screen still gives some warm-spotting, generally associated with some darkening near the edges.

My recent efforts in trying to find a silver material....and covered with the matt acrylic, was to have a flat screen without hot or warm-spotting. I think now that it may not be possible, unless you introduce some white into the mix, but as soon as you do that you lose a considerable amount of the gain.

It's a real "catch 22" situation.

One thing I really love about my silver screen is it's remarkable ambient light rejection, and for some situations this is of great benefit.

CMRA / MM's Light Fusion Screen may just be that compromise !!

[Rudy81]

I made some progress this evening on taming the hot spotting on my pvc sample. I tried three items. A black tulle material, white tulle material, and a "frosted" very thin sheet of plastic I found at Joann's. The Tulle was rather useless. However, the plastic worked very well. It worked so well in fact, I took some screen shots and posted them on the web for your review.

Please understand, I'm not a professional photographer. I just wanted to see if the camera could capture what I saw. It did a rather nice job. Here are some observations on that PVC and frosted plastic combination.

- pvc maintained it's high gain attributes and lost that brutal hot spotting problem.
- Colors are just great with the pvc.
- At about 30 degrees or more off center, the pvc is not very useful, the Parkland screen is superior at wide viewing cone.
- The pj will need to be calibrated for this material. I did not do that at this point since I was only working with a small piece of material.
- With ambient lighting, the pvc fairs a little better than the Parkland, but not much.

My goal is to find a way to make this screen without having to paint. My concern now is how well the frosted plastic will work on a large surface area. I guess I'll find out. At this point I already have the pvc and just need to make a frame and buy the frosted plastic in a size to fit the screen. As soon as I have the project complete, I will attempt to take some shots of the Parkland and then of the pvc with hopefully the same picture on it.

Please note that you will see some inperfections in the sample board. Those are due to a bad job of attaching the pvc material to the foam board I used. Also, I did not do a good job of streching the frosted plastic over the board, so you will see some wrinkles in some shots.

I wanted to post the results to get your opinion. Please post your observations or comments here. If not, e-mail me.

The screen shots can be found at:

http://www.prontoweb.com/pvc_screen.htm

[CMRA]

Originally posted by Rudy81
- pvc maintained it's high gain attributes and lost that brutal hot spotting problem.
- Colors are just great with the pvc.
- At about 30 degrees or more off center, the pvc is not very useful, the Parkland screen is superior at wide viewing cone.
- The pj will need to be calibrated for this material. I did not do that at this point since I was only working with a small piece of material.


I wanted to post the results to get your opinion. Please post your observations or comments here. If not, e-mail me.

The screen shots can be found at:

http://www.prontoweb.com/pvc_screen.htm

It's really too bad something like this isn't going to be at the Canuck shoot-out. You guys are on to something.
Then again, maybe it can. Why not PM Mandarax? Perhaps he could do a set-up for you? There's still time.

[Gray Davis]

Wow. Those screenshots look great, Rudy.

Could you offer a more detailed description on that "frosted plastic?" Maybe a photo? I imagined a hard sheet of plastic, but you talk about "stretching" the sheet over the PVC so I assume my assumption is wrong? Can you buy large sheets of that plastic?

PS: You may have already done this, but I suggest moving the PVC sample around on the Parkland (middle, top left, etc) to see if that makes a difference. Apart from the hotspotting I found that, with the top corners of my screen, the PVC sample was much darker/less bright than the Parkland. I wonder if the plastic sheet would affect this?

EDIT: It looks like whites are getting crushed on the PVC. I know you said a projector would need to be recalibrated for use with the PVC - are settings in your shots calibrated for the Parkland?

[argieX]

This is great :) thx Rudy81.

I still see some hotspotting though, the picture is much brighter in the center of the screen.

Have you tried 2 layers of frosted plastic ?

That might help diffuse the light even more.

Keep up the good work.

[Rudy81]

The frosted plastic comes rolled up, like other fabrics. It is somewhat plyable and is available in different thiknesses. I might try a thicker sample to see what happens.

Yes, the pj is calibrated for the Parkland. Until I get a full size screen, I don't beleive it would do any good to change settings. All the colors are richer and more vibrant. The white is bright white on the pvc, much brighter than the Parkland.

The hot spotting is still there and I beleive that the edges of the screen are somewhat darker than the center. Hoever, it is not that bright beam at center of your viewing area. Of course as you change your seating postition, the hot spot moves relative to your position.


Since I already have the pvc, I might as well build a full screen. No use in playing with a sample when I can build a full size screen and really see how it looks.

[edgebsl]

Do you have a link for the plastic material...? I did a search and couldnt find anything like it.