Denon 5900 macroblocking favor

[gandley]

and here, but not quite as bad, my other dvd player displays this as perfect red without the dirty patch

[Tom Grooms]

YUCK!, I couldn't live with that

[cmont]

Originally posted by esp1
the worst MP3 navigation menu ever designed and you don't really have a high end player by any standards.

MP3 navigation menus are now one of the criterion for a high end player? Talk about oxymoronic.

Chris

[Martin Butler]

Kris, didn't mean to be too harsh, it's just that I like Denon products and am disappointed that I have to find a way to get a look at this macroblocking and decide if it's a minor quirk I can live happily with, or if it will be too annoying to ignore. If this wasn't happening, I'd have bought one already. It's not so easy to see one particular DVD player in a retail environment and then find a disc that displays the macroblocking, so I rely on my past experience with Denon products and the reviews here by those more technical than myself. Thanks for staying with us in this thread. If you say this is one of the best DVD players you've seen that's good news. The audio features are very important to me as well, so I'll try to seek out a demo somehow. I probably won't buy a new player for 3-4 months, so I've got some time to figure out what my next best move is.
I've been very satisfied with my Sony 9000ES. The audio is just superb and the video (bugs and all) looks good on my Toshiba Widescreen RPTV. I've owned at least 10 DVD players and the Sony was the best all, around player for my uses a few years ago. I need to upgrade for many reasons (mainly audio capabilities) and hope the Denon will be all the player I'll need until HD-DVD is a reality.

[cmont]

Martin

Just make sure whatever player you purchase has a remote that weighs at least 20lbs. or else you will be missing out on what the "high-end" has to offer. :)

Chris

[Martin Butler]

Chris, I bought the Home Theater Master MX-500 six months ago and still haven't set it up! :confused: It's figuring out the programming of little details like my Toshiba's aspect ratios that turned me off. Hopefully I'll get up the courage to give it another try soon.

Anyone know where to view the 5900 in NYC? I'll try to stop by the usual haunts, (Stereo Exchange, Sound by Singer, Harvey's) and see what's up soon.

[cmont]

I hear ya Martin. I've been investigating universal remotes but haven't mustered the courage to really delve into the programming side.

If I still lived in NY I would have been happy to let you audition the 5900 in my home. I know you are not the hugest fan of DLP but I think you would be quite impressed with the 5900/s3 combo. Maybe you should instigate another NY shootout and get someone to bring their 5900 to Anthony's house. :)

Chris

[Martin Butler]

Great idea Chris. Just to be clear, I don't have enough experience with either DLP or LCos to have an informed opinion. I simply so admired the smoothness of the JVC G-150 that I wouldn't consider buying a pj in the 6-12k range that didn't do as well in that aspect, even if that means waiting, or using a less expensive "hold over" pj like the Sony HS20 for a year or two.

I'll see what Anthony's up to. I wonder if his Marantz has a DVI input? That would make viewing the 5900 very interesting, first an analogue out comparison with another DVD player and then an analogue vs. DVI out test.. I'm already ready!

[Dave Vaughn]

Gandley,
Is your display and 5900 properly calibrated? I just put in that disk in my 5900 on that scene and everything looks perfect. Mine is the region 1 disk though.

Dave

[cmont]

Martin

Anthony does have DVI with the s2 so you should be able to do a nice analog/digital comparison. I think you will find the differences quite noticeable. While the component output is clean the 5900 via DVI is exceptional.

As for smoothness the HD2+ chip is definitely an improvement in that regard. It is tough to say how much of an improvement over previous designs but I have been as close as 1.5 screen widths away with no complaints.

Chris

[Ahardt]

Originally posted by Martin Butler
Chris, I bought the Home Theater Master MX-500 six months ago and still haven't set it up!
This killed me when I read it. Are you serious? If so, you must remedy this immediately. I got an MX-500 for x-mas and spent the better part of a day programming it. It took awhile only b/c I wanted everything to be set up juuuust right, so I planned out all my macros etc, and read through the OM, which granted, read like stereo instructions, but were really easy to use once I started doing the actual programming. I'll probably reconfigure some stuff, but wanted to start off on the right foot.

This remote has changed my life. Every time I use it, I'm a happier person. I've never had a good universal before and this is worth every penny- priceless, actually. I love it so much that I sometimes think I love it more than the equipment I control with it. I know this is off topic, but I couldn't let that comment go by. Tomorrow's Saturday- take the day and program it PLEASE.

[Ken Stokes]

I keep reading this thread and maybe I'm blind but I have easily watched 100 disks with the 5900 and I think it's great. As I mentioned before my display was ISF calibrated the day I purchased the 5900 so maybe that is it but I can't understand the complaining. This is 2k player that is discounted. I had the Lexicon in my system and didn't like it nearly as well. I just think it is a great piece of equipment for the price.

Ken

[Martin Butler]

Ahart, thanks for the encouragement. I bought the MX-500 to experience exactly what you described and was disappointed. It's mainly that I really haven't had the time to dig into another poorly written manual, and take the half day needed to get the hang of it. It seemed to me that I wouldn't be able to program all of the buttons I need in order to use one remote like I wanted to. Thanks to your inspiration I'll try to give it another chance.

Ken, truly glad to hear that your experience with the 5900 is good. Your particular machine may not have the problems some members have encountered. I can't agree with your choice of the word "complaining" though. It seems to me that most of the posts have been communicative and forthright about understanding and identifying certain anomalies. Even Kris from Secrets has acknowledged the macroblocking problem. I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, but quite a few owners here have expressed their dissatisfaction with this even though a few feel it's no big deal.

I'm going to try and see this for myself before buying. The 5900 may not be at fault in the sense that it's displaying defects in the disc making process, but if a player is constantly too good for some discs, there are only two solutions. Fix the disc production process or tweak the player. Hopefully the macroblocking is seen rarely, but I'd be displeased if even three or four of my favorite discs displayed this problem, but could live with it. If it was 10-15 discs, I'd consider it a defect. I'm still looking forward to trying one since I really need a multi format player for my work. I too felt that the 5900 could be a great piece of equipment, but am concerned about the macroblocking issue and hope it's not a deal breaker for me as I've owned quite a few Denon products and have come to expect a lot from them. That said I can say one pattern I've noticed in Denon design is that a great feature may sometimes be eliminated in a new model. Example, I had a Denon 3200 receiver with a little sliver of a plug in radio antennae. It got the strongest, clearest signal I've ever heard in any NYC apartment I've lived in. I traded up to the 5700 receiver and to my surprise found the typical antennae inputs. Frankly, they really sucked, reception was terrible and I was never as happy with the 5700 as I could have been. Also, there's a history of some Denon products having been released with some real defects and you know the saying "once bitten, twice shy". That's where I'm coming from. Unless someone comes out with a clearly superior player that does all the 5900 does in 3-4 months, I'll probably give it a try, but wish I didn't have to cross my fingers when I do.

[Cain]

I could live with the macroblocking, I did not like the subtitles popping up at odd random times, and the really SLOW menu and chapter selections.

I also was still seeing some layer changes.

I'm still looking around. If I'm gonna pay $2K then I expect it to be the best of everything, or really close :D

[Kris Deering]

Originally posted by Cain
I could live with the macroblocking, I did not like the subtitles popping up at odd random times, and the really SLOW menu and chapter selections.

I also was still seeing some layer changes.

I'm still looking around. If I'm gonna pay $2K then I expect it to be the best of everything, or really close :D

I agree the menus are really slow. I still have yet to have a single subtitle pop up though and I have watched A TON of DVDs on this thing with my reviews.

I have seen about 3-5 layer changes but I don't recall the titles.

The macroblocking is a product of the player's MPEG decoder, there is no doubt about that, but it is somewhat the fault of the DVDs as well. This decoder is a really low end decoder and I am a bit surprised Denon went with it. Hopefully they'll move on to a better one in their future offerings. The sensitivity to badly mastered DVDs is just too high so you get rounding errors that cause the issues.

As I said before you can tweak most of it out by using the AVIA window pattern at 20 or 30 IRE and adjusting the players "black level" control in the picture adjustment menu. After you do this make sure you reset your contrast and brightness settings on your monitor as they will have changed.

[Dave Vaughn]

Kris,
That is what surprises me so much about this player. I own it and like it, but am a little upset at Denon. As you say, they use a cheap MPEG decoder in a MSRP $2000 DVD player. That is like buying a Mercedes and finding out you have a Yugo transmission in it. Denon should be ashamed of themselves for using an inferior part in a "premium" product offering.

Dave

[gandley]

they should offer an upgrade option to change the decoder, hell i would pay for it if it meant getting rid of the blocking.

that amazes me though. i spent a whole bunch off money for a inferior decoder, an i-link output that dosent work properly...........now i remember y i dont normaly buy denon..

whats realy annouying is at times this thing is gobsmacking. the pic can be truly awesome. what an oversight by denon, like we wouldnt notice.

[Martin Butler]

Kris, thanks for being so frank regarding the 5900. Do you think Denon took the easy way out to eliminate the chroma bug by using this decoder? Myself, I think I'd rather have a chroma error than macroblocking, but then I'm using a widescreen HDTV and not a projector which might make a chroma bug intolerable. Is there multi format player available ( or soon to be) you know of that doesn't have errors such as this? What's up with the newest Pioneer? They used to be tops, but seem to have lost the cache` they once enjoyed.

[dpippel]

The macroblocking is a product of the player's MPEG decoder, there is no doubt about that, but it is somewhat the fault of the DVDs as well. This decoder is a really low end decoder and I am a bit surprised Denon went with it.
It's interesting that Denon also used an ESS decoder in the 3800, a player that has none of the macroblocking issues some people are seeing in the 5900. Could it just be a matter of implementation? If so, is a fix is possible via a firmware update? Jeff Talmadge has been aware of this reported problem for a while now but so far there's been no info forthcoming from Denon.

[santellavision]

I agree the menus are really slow. I still have yet to have a single subtitle pop up though and I have watched A TON of DVDs on this thing with my reviews.Kris, Have you watched 'Amadeus'? I watched that last night with unwanted sub-titles!

[Kris Deering]

Denon used ESS MPEG decoders in the 3800 and 9000 with no issues. But the latest batch are less then desirable, more an issue with ESS then Denon but I wish they would have caught the issues before release.

Saying that they use a cheap MPEG decoder is a universal flaw though. Look at Krell's $8K player with the same cheap LSI decoder as the budgey Sony's, or Meridian with their outdated Ziva configuration. Most the time it deals with contracts.

The best MPEG decoders we have seen was Panasonic's old offering, which was cheap, and the new Sigma designs, which is cheap. It isn't really a matter of cost, more of quality.

Sorry I haven't watched Amadeus on the player. Not really a movie I watch very often.

[Joe Murphy Jr]

Kris
I've asked this before, but never got an answer from anyone.

If the Matsushita MPEG decoder was so wonderful, why is it still not used? Why can't a manufacturer that wants the better decoder get them to provide a supply of these old decoders? In the case of Denon, they've even used OEM players from Panasonic!

Sigma is inexpensive as far as a decoder, but doesn't the deinterlacing take place on the same chip? And I recall the deinterlacing is not that great, right?

Too many issues proper playback is. And probably unnecessary issues.

[Kris Deering]

You don't have to use the de-interlacing on the Sigma chip. The ESS chip has de-interlacing as well, but Denon doesn't use it.

I don't know what the deal is with the Matsushita chips. Denon may not be able to just buy the chips, but rather have to OEM the whole transport. That might not be what they want to do.

[Rhoniel Kase]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
You don't have to use the de-interlacing on the Sigma chip. The ESS chip has de-interlacing as well, but Denon doesn't use it.

Wow. I guess this is good news. It means new DVD players from Vinc can possibly (note: possibly) bypass the deinterlacing in Sigma chipset and use some other solution. Same can be said for other manufacturers making Sigma based players.

Rhoniel

[Joe Murphy Jr]

That is interesting. Unfortunately, in order to save money, most manufacturers would rather it be done on one chip. If the execution was stellar, it would be the way to go. Case in point, it's not.

If anyone is familiar with the AVM processor in the Fujitsu plasmas, you know what stellar means. In that case, one chip is better than two (or more).

[Kris Deering]

Originally posted by Rhoniel Kase
Wow. I guess this is good news. It means new DVD players from Vinc can possibly (note: possibly) bypass the deinterlacing in Sigma chipset and use some other solution. Same can be said for other manufacturers making Sigma based players.

Rhoniel

Bravo has already expressed interest in this and I wouldn't be surprised to see something along these lines in the D3 or later. It won't happen in the D2 though. This is exactly what Samsung did with the 931, that is why the Faroudja chipset is only used for the DVI output.

All in one chip solutions are popular for lower priced players, that is why you see so many $100 progressive players on the market right now. That is what Panasonic did with its line, they created a chip that would do everything all in one to save some dough. Remember that videophiles that TRULY CARE about de-interlacing and all the other goodies represent less then 1% of the total market that is buying these things.

[Kris Deering]

Okay I have all but completely remedied the bug on my player. This is through trial and error using the 20 and 30 IRE window patterns on AVIA, which exhibit the problem consistently, and the worse in my opinion. You will have to go a bit back and forth with the settings in your player and the settings on your monitor though.

Starting with my display completely set correctly using DVE and the player's settings completely in the neutral positions but black level set at 0 IRE. I adjusted the following settings in the DVD player under the picture adjustments.

Black Level : -2
White Level : +1
3DNR: +5

I went back and forth trying lots of different settings. Be aware that your contrast and brightness settings on your monitor will have an affect too. But I was able to maintain the proper contrast and brightness levels on my monitor and use these settings. This eliminated 99% of the issue on the 20 IRE pattern and 100% on the 30 IRE. I will watch some DVDs over the next week and see what it does for background noise. I did evaluate some of my reference DVDs to see if there was any adverse effects to the image with the 3DNR setting that high, but I couldn't find anything. The image was superb with "The Fifth Element Superbit Edition" with fantastic depth and detail.

These settings may not work completely based on whatever monitor you have and its settings. If you adjust these one and a time using those window patterns you can dial in the picture. I would go one at a time and take each one to the level needed to eliminate as much as each one could. Adding them on top of each other tweaked it in even farther until I was able to almost completely eliminate it. If any of you try this, please let me know how it goes. I think most of these adjustment on the player are done directly in the MPEG decoder and are not parameters adjusted in the Faroudja chipset.

[Dave Vaughn]

Thanks Kris. I didn't adjust the white level or the 3DNR on my set-up.

Dave

[Joe Murphy Jr]

Kris
Are you using 0 IRE for black or 7.5 IRE? Have people noticed this problem more with one or the other?

[Rhoniel Kase]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Bravo has already expressed interest in this and I wouldn't be surprised to see something along these lines in the D3 or later.
Hi Kris,
If you happened to visit Vinc's both at CES, can you also please tell them to put a better power supply unit in their players. It probably won't cost them more than $5 as compared to what they are spending on the current D1's PSU unit. According to Alan Maher, Bravo's flaky PSU is responsible for all lock up and disc skipping problems. Thanks.

Rhoniel

[Kris Deering]

Jim Noyd, who is the press rep for Bravo, frequents these boards and posts here all the time. I would imagine asking him about this will have more result then me telling them. I am not in a position to really tell any company anything. Most respect the results of our tests at Secrets, including V inc., but I don't like the idea of telling them how to do their business.

Joe, I am using the 0 IRE setting. I haven't tried anything with the 7.5 IRE.

[Rhoniel Kase]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Jim Noyd, who is the press rep for Bravo, frequents these boards and posts here all the time. I would imagine asking him about this will have more result then me telling them.
I just told him:).
He said they are putting new PSUs :D here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=346078)
Regards,

Rhoniel

[leegeousa]

I just bought two 2003 Decca DVDAs today and my 5900 refuses to play them. One is by Renee Fleming and the other is Cecilia Bartoli's "The Vivaldi Album". The display showed "Play" but no video or audio were transmitted. This is the first time that my 5900 refuses to play a disc at all but as I reported earlier I do have problems playing other discs (DVD: the DTS and DD demonstration tracks on disc 2 of the Ultimate DVD Platinum - stuttering, SACD: Jacintha is Her Name - unable to play a number of tracks and DVDA: Fairport Convention's Close to the Wind - occasional skips), a total of 5 discs so far. Again my 45a has no problems playing all these discs. Some how I just don't think my 5900 is particularly worse than other 5900s and I'll not be surprised there'll be more problem discs down the road. With this note I'll sign off from this thread but will monitor it for others to debate the merits and defects on 5900's DESIGN.

Oh, for those members who reported that they have no problems with their machines, it'll be helpful to potential and current owners to confirm that they can indeed play some of the problem discs mentioned in this thread.

[kevinca1]

It is stated on every dvd that it may not work in all players. So how can you call it a defect or design flaw? It is the format not the player. Every dvd has this on it.

[Joe Murphy Jr]

Kris
The only reason I asked is because I seem to remember some owners with DLP sets saying that they were using the 7.5 IRE setting (or maybe it was the other way around and they were using the 0 IRE setting?).

[Kris Deering]

I was indeed seeing the problem with the window patterns at 0 IRE, so I know that isn't masking it. If they prefer to use the 7.5 setting and they still see the problem with the window boxes, then follow the same steps with the exception of the 0 IRE setting and see what results you get.

leegeousa, I have the Ultimate DVD Platinum. I will try the DD and DTS demonstrations and report back to on it.

[Joe Murphy Jr]

kevinca1
I checked two DVDs (Air Force One: Superbit and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen) and two DVD-As (both from AIX Records).

I couldn't find any information regarding playability. Am I not looking in the right place?

[gkfisher]

Originally posted by Joe Murphy Jr
Kris
Are you using 0 IRE for black or 7.5 IRE? Have people noticed this problem more with one or the other?

Is there a correct setting? I thought that correct video black level was 7.5 , and that ideally you want your players black level set a 7.5 and your displays input to assume 7.5 is black.

I know some players, like the Samsung are fixed at 0 IRE.

So I guess what I am asking is that, if you interchange these settings don't you run the risk of messing up your black level?

[Kris Deering]

Leegeousa

I checked all of the sound effect tests in both the DTS and Dolby Digital demonstrations on the Ultimate DVD Platinum. I also checked the music demonstrations on the DTS demo and the soundtrack demos for DD. I had no skips at all. I am glad I checked those though! I am in the Navy full time, a submariner, and that feature on the USS Forrestal is really good! I had to watch it once in one of my firefighting courses, but I am glad to know I have it on DVD. Sorry I couldn't recreate your issues. I don't have the other discs you mention so there is no way for me to test them.

Again the only disc I have had an issue with is a Chicago DVD-A that played fine on my previous players but won't on this one. But I had John Kotches test his with his copy of the DVD-A and it worked fine. I guess sometimes players are touchy with certain discs. I ran into this all the time with a Bravo I was borrowing for awhile. It wouldn't play a bunch of stuff that my other players wouldn't. If I was you, I would trade out for another one with your dealer, I bet that would resolve most if not all of your issues.

[Ahardt]

Originally posted by gkfisher
Is there a correct setting? I thought that correct video black level was 7.5 , and that ideally you want your players black level set a 7.5 and your displays input to assume 7.5 is black.

I know some players, like the Samsung are fixed at 0 IRE.

So I guess what I am asking is that, if you interchange these settings don't you run the risk of messing up your black level?
That's EXACTLY what I was gonna ask. I'm very confoosed now :(. I thought that if it's set for 0 IRE, below black won't be displayed. Is the semi- rumored and much disputed "contrast bug" related to the macroblocking and fixed by screwing up black levels?

[Kris Deering]

gkfisher,

I always use the 0 IRE function, that way your player isn't clipping off below black information, of which there is quite a bit of on most DVDs. It is also easier to set your brightness correctly using 0 IRE.

[Ahardt]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
gkfisher,

I always use the 0 IRE function, that way your player isn't clipping off below black information, of which there is quite a bit of on most DVDs. It is also easier to set your brightness correctly using 0 IRE.
I have done some research here on the forum and tried to find a good explanation of all this. Can you explain or refer me to a good link that explains how 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE are related to 1-255, etc for video and PC standards. I have read much, but am not sure what EXACTLY the 0, 7.5, 1-255 relate to in regards to EACH OTHER, if that makes sense. Is it just a matter of calling the same thing by 2 different terms? 0 IRE bing 1-255 and 7.5 IRE being 16-235 or whatever, or vice versa?

[Joe Murphy Jr]

gkfisher
The Q&D explanation is this:
If your display has individual memory settings for each input, use 0 IRE. If your display doesn't have different memory settings for each input, use 7.5 IRE.

The DVD format uses 0 IRE for black. Cable, regular broadcast television, VCRs and laserdisc players use 7.5 IRE for black. Obviously you can see the potential problem if your display doesn't have individual memory settings for each input.

Therefore, if it doesn't, use 7.5 IRE if your DVD player allows this setting or else all of the other sources I listed will be wrong and will look very dark.

[Martin Butler]

"It is stated on every dvd that it may not work in all players. So how can you call it a defect or design flaw? It is the format not the player. Every dvd has this on it." Kevinca
____________________________________________

Maybe this is why:

"Again my 45a has no problems playing all these discs." Legeousa
__________________________________________________

"This decoder is a low end decoder and I'm surprised they (Denon) went with it" Kris Deering

__________________________________________________

Kevinca, I think that's a poor argument. Let's say we read this entire thread, and find all the discs that people have had trouble with and played them all succesfully, without a hitch, on five different make DVD players and then find they don't play properly on the sixth player (5900). Exactly what would you call it? You always sound like a spin doctor for Denon, why?

[Kris Deering]

Originally posted by Martin Butler
Kevinca, I think that's a poor argument. Let's say we read this entire thread, and find all the discs that people have had trouble with and played them all succesfully, without a hitch, on five different make DVD players and then find they don't play properly on the sixth player (5900). Exactly what would you call it? You always sound like a spin doctor for Denon, why?

Martin

That is exactly what I am trying to do, without buying EVERY DVD mentioned here. I have most of them already thankfully. The only discs mentioned in this thread that I haven't been able to check the SA-CD and DVD-A mentioned by leegeousa. Everything else I have been able to look at with no problems. The only thing I have been able to confirm is the "artifacts" associated with the window patterns people are seeing. I have posted how to almost completely eliminate this problem.

If someone is having more problems with more then about 2 discs, I would take the player back and exchange it for a new one. I have had a lot of different players that have had issues with a disc only to find that another doesn't with the same disc, but if it is happening with quite a few (like leegeousa) then it is most likely a defective unit.

What we have to remember is that in this entire thread we have a consortium of probably less then 10 owners with issues, and most are unrelated to each other. A bug is something that is repeatable over the entire product line, like the window pattern issue. If the subtitle thing was a bug, I would be able to repeat it on my player, and I have had three already at my disposal and haven't been able to repeat it on any of them.

[Joe Murphy Jr]

This may not answer all of the questions, but...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2987782#post2987782

sspears:
"IRE is in the analog world. DVDs are in the digital world. When converted back to analog, it is the DVD player that decides if digital 16 == IRE 0 or IRE 7.5.

There is NO IRE with the DVI out. DVI should have nominal black at 16 and nominal white at 235. The Samsung clips at 16 and 235 and then expands what is left (about 7.5 bits) to 0 and 256. So now black is at digital 0, which is wrong.

This is how Windows use to work for video. With MCE 2004, we fixed it so nominal black is now at 16. If you are using the latest drivers from nVidia or ATI with the VMR, then this is how it behaves.".

[Joe Murphy Jr]

And still more...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3131463#post3131463

some nut case:
"Actually, it's the PC standard that does the "chopping". The video standard allows for signals below black and above white. The PC standard just encodes from black to white. Don't think "numbers", think signal.

Although you see 16 - 235 listed for the video standard, both it and the PC standard go from 1 - 255. The 16 - 235 corresponds to where black and white reside, not the range of the signal.".

[Martin Butler]

Kris, you make a lot of sense. It's inherent in a forum like this to focus on problems and I know it's difficult to accurately portray the bigger picture (pun slightly intended). By the way, being in the Navy full time, how do you find the time for all this? I'm impressed and wish you well.
If you set up the 5900 as you suggested to reduce the macroblocking artifacts does that compromise other aspects of PQ?

By setting the 5900 as you suggest, does that mean that a calibration of the projector or TV must be done after setting up the 5900 or before?

[Ahardt]

Joe-
That is some of the EXACT reading I was referring to. I suppose I'll have to do some more research and write it all out as if I were in school all over again. My head hurts from it all.

I still don't see how changing the IRE setting from 0 to 7.5 or the reverse wouldn't affect pluge. Is it somehow compensated for/adjusted in the display calibration? This is why I monitor but rarely post in this thread- much of what's posted is beyond my knowledge.

[Ahardt]

Wait- forget it- I think I just got it. Correct me if I'm wrong please, and I'm sorry to highjack this thread.

So you're saying that the Denon, for example, has 0 IRE representing, say, 16? Whereas the 931 or any non-pluge passing player has 0 IRE represented as 0? If this is what all this means, than what would 7.5 IRE be on the Denon?

EDIT: Or actually, digital 16 representing 0 IRE, etc? PS- And I THOUGHT it was some nut case posting all that craziness ;).

[Joe Murphy Jr]

When it hurts inside of your head, you know you've got something inside of it. The time to start worrying is when you read this and other technical material and you feel no pain.

[dr1394]

Here's an image I've made from the 20 IRE window pattern with my reference
decoder. It's just the corners blown up and pasted together. I've also boosted
the contrast to show the pixel levels better.

Kris, does this image match what you are seeing from the DVD-5900? And are you
adjusting to get rid of the pattern around the corners or the pattern along the
right and left edges? BTW, the pixels around the corners in the black field are
below black (less than 16 digital).

Ron

[kevinca1]

Joe i stand corrected most do not say that but the old ones used to. Martin Kris has said the disk are problems also with the errors and has said people jump to the conclusion and blame the player first so is he also doing what i say?

[Kris Deering]

dr1394

No that isn't what I am seeing with the 5900. The artifacts are mainly contained in the window box itself and are quite numerous. Their intensity and number fluctuate directly with whatever level I set with the 5900 user settings. Bringing black level and white level up and down changes them significantly, as does enhancer. I haven't seen the blocking around the edges like your showing though. I would try to take a picture of it but my camera sucks at it.

[Kris Deering]

Originally posted by Martin Butler
Kris, you make a lot of sense. It's inherent in a forum like this to focus on problems and I know it's difficult to accurately portray the bigger picture (pun slightly intended). By the way, being in the Navy full time, how do you find the time for all this? I'm impressed and wish you well.
If you set up the 5900 as you suggested to reduce the macroblocking artifacts does that compromise other aspects of PQ?

By setting the 5900 as you suggest, does that mean that a calibration of the projector or TV must be done after setting up the 5900 or before?

I don't really find the time for all this, you should talk to my wife and listen to her complain. Between posting here and moderating at The SPot, coupled with DVD reviews for The Spot and equipment reviews for Secrets, my time is constantly tight.

My settings didn't seem to compromise the image at all. I rechecked all my settings constantly using DVE and they seemed fine. Then I check a few of my reference titles to see if overall picture quality looked degraded, and I couldn't see anything. The image was very sharp and detailed with excellent blacks.

[Martin Butler]

Thanks Kris.

Kevinca, the point is that the 5900 displays something the majority of players do not. What it's displaying is highly undesirable. The fault is with both the player and the disc, but the fact that the 5900 is the only player that shows macroblocking is important to those considering buying one. As I said earlier, if it is on only a few discs that OK (not great, but OK) if it shows up on quite a few it isn't, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks to Kris it's becoming clear that the problem can be remedied. Still, aren't you frustrated that Denon plans to make a great player and includes a so-so decoder?

[kevinca1]

My only complaint about the 5900 is they didnt use silcon image. The 3800, 2900 and 2200 all have the silcon and none have the macro blocking that the faroudja seems to have so yes they should have used silcon IMO. I also will agree with Kris that this player nor any other player made is perfect. He also has statedthis player is better then players that cost 9k or more, It all boils to what you can live with each player has some fault and the disk themsleves have many problems, Look at some dvds that knock your socks off and are near perfect while others the studios should be shot for making they are horrable transfers are have flaws within them. I dont think disney has made one disk that every player plays and has no errors on it. This player also like kris has done lets you correct many errors so really it does not have the problem since you can fix it it may be a pian but it can be corrected,

[Kris Deering]

Originally posted by kevinca1
My only complaint about the 5900 is they didnt use silcon image. The 3800, 2900 and 2200 all have the silcon and none have the macro blocking that the faroudja seems to have so yes they should have used silcon IMO.

The Faroudja chip has nothing to do with the issues associated with this player. Denon has implemented the chip better then anyone else has so far. The problem is the ESS MPEG decoder, and that is more an issue with ESS making a poor decoder then anything. Denon used their previous offerings with the 3800 and 9000 with no issues, but it seems this new model has some bad math processing in it. The Silicon Image chip does not scale therefore wasn't an option for Denon. But they aren't taking any kind of performance hit on it with the Faroudja.

[Rosano]

Kris..I sure wish you could use the DVI output on the Denon and see if the problem still persists or is lessened.

I'm using DVI out...enhanced black "on"...most of my settings at factory default...now when I throw up a 20 or 30 IRE pattern on my S2 and 96x54 inch Firehawk...the picture is solid...it looks perfect..to me anyway.

Now I watched SWAT last nite and in the dark scenes...not all of them..but in dark scenes especially when they showed vehicle interiors with faces I noticed in the black background a type of what I would call a moving sheen or dithering effect...not blocks but more of a wave type of effect. Once again only in some scenes....If I look at the "Moira" scenes in LOTR all is OK. In Dark City all is good also...

I have not played with any of the video parameters yet like 3DNR or mosquito noise...but I'll see if I can get rid of this effect....

Hey it just might be the damn discs...

[kevinca1]

Thanks Kris for that info. You have great knowledge and thanks for sharing it.

[Dave Vaughn]

Rasano,
The "wavyness" is also seen on DVI. At least on my machine. It can be mostly eliminated by adjusting with VE or AVIA and the user settings.

Dave

[Kris Deering]

Rosano

What you are seeing is compression artifacts associated with DVD and proabably a few artifacts associated with DLP. Remember that DLP uses dithering so it creates it own artifacts, mainly in darker areas of the picture.

The DVI ouput may eliminate the problem, but not likely since the MPEG decoder is still used, but I will check it out anyways.

[dr1394]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
dr1394

No that isn't what I am seeing with the 5900. The artifacts are mainly contained in the window box itself and are quite numerous. Their intensity and number fluctuate directly with whatever level I set with the 5900 user settings. Bringing black level and white level up and down changes them significantly, as does enhancer. I haven't seen the blocking around the edges like your showing though. I would try to take a picture of it but my camera sucks at it.
Wow, that's kooky. There are no AC DCT coefficents in the window box to create
IDCT errors. They are all just flat intra blocks coded with one DC coefficient.
Now I'm starting to think that the 5900 MPEG-2 decoder is just plain broken.

Ron

[Joe Murphy Jr]

!!!

[Kris Deering]

I don't know if it is broken, I think the settings associated with it are just messed up, hence why I can get rid of the artifacts with tweaking. The problem is, I don't have a scope yet to see exactly what I am changing in the video signal. It is obviously related to the black levels, since it only shows up in darker areas. As I mentioned before, it is only evident with the 20 and 30 IRE patterns. I may be clipping some of the black levels as well. I will experiment a bit more.

[dr1394]

A couple of things to look for.

1) Does the "pixel pattern" change or is it fixed while the window box is
playing? I'd guess it would be fixed since the windox box pattern is a
single I-frame being repeated.

2) Is the "pixel pattern" always ths same? That is, can you play another disc,
put Avia back in and return to the 20 IRE window box, and then see the same
"pixel pattern"?

Ron

[Kris Deering]

The pattern stays the same if I just let it play, but it changes quite a bit as I vary the levels in the menu settings for "Black" and "White". The artifacts change appearance altogether with different settings.

Problem is I don't know exactly what these black and white levels are actually adjusting as they are totally different from the brightness and contrast settings in the player.

If I change the disc though and come back, the exact same artifacts appear. Very strange. I will take a picture of it and see if I can get it to show up enough to post it.

[Martin Butler]

Kris, do you know if Denon has addressed the problems with the ESS MPEG decoder with the manufacturer? I'm wondering if they plan to use a "corrected" ESS decoder in models not yet made, or did they already purchase all they anticipate needing and are stuck with them?

How does something like macroblocking get by the manufacturer? Aren't they thoroughly checking out what they are buying? I'd like to see further research into exactly what your "macroblock tweaking fix" is doing to the video signal.

Kevinca, most buyers of A/V gear will never discover AVS and the corrections needed to cover up faults in design, so they'll simply see macroblocking and either return the machine or live with it. I think Denon should offer to fix this for every buyer of a 5900. Even if it is costly to them, the good will and prestige they'd gain could outweigh the short term difficulty of doing so.

[kevinca1]

Martin i will agree with you. Denon has shown in the past that they will fix things and i hope that they do in this instance also. If it can be fixed like kris says he has and he can confim it imn many ways they should post the findings of kris on there site to correct it so everyone can see.

[Kris Deering]

Well my camera is indeed useless for taking pictures of this.

I don't know what Denon has done or will do in regards to this issue. I was hoping to meet with them after CES since I won't be able to attend the show. They were scheduled to come out after CES to Seattle to meet with me, but that fell through do to schedule conflicts they have.

If this isn't a problem with the DCIS processing, then it may be an issue with the analog section as well. Without confirming it via DVI I couldn't say. Has anyone here seen the same artifacts via DVI? I may go to a friend's house this afternoon who has a DVI input on his monitor to find out.

[Martin Butler]

I really hope so too Kevinca. I've been anticipating getting the 5900 since it's announcement, but know myself too well to think I would be OK with these artifacts. It's just me, I know that most players have one quirk or another, it's just which quirk can you live with. If Denon steps up and remedies these problems I'll be happy and very impressed.

Still I'd like to know if they can fix the decoder problems at the supply level for future 5900's.

[Dave Vaughn]

Kris,
I use the DVI out and the problem is still there with DVI. It can be 95% tweaked out..but not all the way.

Dave

[Kris Deering]

Martin

The tweak I posted pretty much remedies the problem. The image is cleaned up substantially. DVDs are much cleaner with absolutely no player noise in backgrounds. You still notice about 1% of the noise with the window patterns though.

It is too bad you live so far away, I think if you came over and watched a few DVDs on this thing at my place, you would easily be sold.

Hopefully Denon will work it out, but for now the tweaks pretty much resolve it. I will let you know more from Denon as soon as I know something.

[Rosano]

Kris....do you think your solution will work on the DVI output as well?

[Martin Butler]

Man, I love this site, and so appreciate just how many great people are contributing to this virtual community. I know I'll eventually meet some of you.

Thanks Kris, I'm funding a recording project of my music to attract publishers, so the new gear must take a backseat for 2-6 months anyway. By the time I can afford to upgrade, we'll have all of this figured out and I'll know if there are other brands worth considering. Hopefully I'll get a good look at a 5900 soon. You've piqued my interest and I'm still excited about the 5900 and having stellar DVD PQ with all audio formats in one player. I just like having one player, others are OK with two or three. Perhaps it's also because I like certain high end audio cables and figure one group of five expensive analogue cables for SACD/DVD-A is enough.

[kevinca1]

I wish that both the studios that make the dvds and the maunfactors of the players would finally get rid of all the problems that plaque both. Is this to much to ask for them both to get there stuff together. We have chroma bug, alt falg macrco blocking, mousquito nosie and i can go on and on. It just is amazing that no one seems to be able to make a disk right or a player that can play everything and have no bugs. I do feel the 5900 is the closet thing to that.

[Martin Butler]

Kevinca, the closest thing I've seen to your description was the Arcam FMJ27 DVD player. Although it had the most minor version of the chroma bug, on every other level it was truly magnificent, just a gorgeous, three dimensional, mesmerizing picture with absolutely clear background detail. The only piece I've seen that may have been better was by Ayre, but that was four times as expensive. The Arcam was a spectacular CD player as well, with raves from serious audiophiles. It sold for $2500 and could be found under $2000 after a while. The Camelot Roundtable was stunning as well.
So, it can be done, because those players were so close to perfect ( for their time) that they set a benchmark to be surpassed. Since we are now "bug conscious" thanks to the guys at "Secrets" and need more format capability it's even more difficult for manufacturers to hit a home run. By "home run" I mean that it doesn't have to be straight up center field, out of the park and on to the street grand slam, just over the fence in all playback modes. My hope is to see better audio and video quality than the players I've mentioned under $1500. I don't think I'm being unrealistic because the technology is getting older. Denon's almost done it here, let's hope they have a few answers for Kris and Stacey soon.

[Joe Murphy Jr]

>>>let's hope they have a few answers for Kris and Stacey soon.<<<

It's called the DVD6900.
:-)

[Martin Butler]

I feel sorry for the guys at Denon. It's entirely possible that their designs were great but their MPEG decoders pre-production models worked better than what was produced by ESS for their production models. That said, it's still their name on the piece and it's their responsibility. Maybe they'll just hire the guys from Secrets from concept to completion and we'll finally get what we're looking for without major or minor defects. Samsung hired Joe Kane and supposedly he did a tremendous job on the Samsung DLP pj.

[Joe Murphy Jr]

Let's hope they got him to give some input on their new WM9 DVD player. It would be a real bummer if Samsung repeated their HD931 faux pas.

[Kris Deering]

Supposedly there is going to be a whole line of video product that Joe consulted on, the signature line. But it will be pretty $$$. I don't know about DVD players yet, but I am sure that will be in there eventually.

Denon sent us a pre-production unit of the 5900 to see if there were any bugs, but it would have been tough to catch this one. The window patterns on AVIA are not part of our tests normally, and we don't rely to much on just casual observation. Since the artifacts have only manifested on a few DVDs, this could easily be looked over by any reviewer. In fact the only bug we could really find with that unit was an extremelly slow layer change! It was like 3 seconds, but that was obviously dealt with.

I think this issue has more to do with ESS then Denon, again it would be so easy to overlook unless they looked at the right material.

[Martin Butler]

Kris, if ESS is made aware of the flaw, would ESS correct the errors and "improved" decoders be put in 5900's made after the first production runs are sold out?

[Martin Butler]

I have a suggestion to any manufacturer of DVD players. Give a few machines to beta testers and ask them to watch and listen to 100 discs all the way through, including special feature menus. That shouldn't be too difficult, and might prevent serious problems, or am I missing something here?

[Kris Deering]

Your not missing anything, but only a handful of companies do this. I don't know if ESS could fix it or not, depends on what it is that is causing the problem.

Well now for the bad news, my tweak didn't resolve it as much as I was hoping. While it does pretty much eliminate the issues on the window patterns, there is still a funky checkerbox pattern on the 5 & 10% backlight pattern for room brightness. I can't get it to go away at all.

I also noticed some artifacts associated with the 3DNR settings when watching LOTR FOTR EE last night. When there is a lot of fast motion there is some slight ghosting. Hardly evident, but there. I tried some other titles and they looked fine, but it is obviously doing something.

I am going to try to talk to Denon some more about this and see what they have found or may do, but I wouldn't hold my breath on this one.

[Dave Vaughn]

Kris,
Hopefully Denon does something. They will be alienating a lot of potential future customers if they don't address this. People who have bought this player are willing to spend money on a top performing player in the future as well. If Denon drops the ball, they will definately lose a futre customer in me.

Dave

[Tom Grooms]

Dave, What do you want Denon to do? Retool the factory and retrofit all the existing units, It's not gonna happen.
They will be alienating a lot of potential future customers if they don't address this The player is not broke and believe it or not, there are people other than the very few people on-line who don't obsess over every little defect a DVD player has. You need to put things into prospective, these are not heart monitors.

There is no perfect player, get over it, sit back and enjoy the show!

[Tom Grooms]

Well, The players i-link is broke, but that's a different issue all together. I guess all the early adapters are indeed "Beta" Testers.

[gandley]

Yeah but denon claim its pioneer that are at fault with the i-link issue,
having spoke to a uk denon engineer he claims the denon is universal standard i-link and that pioneer use some of there own protocols hence the problem.
I however dont agree not that now it appears it dosent work with the yamaha Z9

[Dave Vaughn]

Tom,
I am 98% happy with my player. Don't get me wrong. But for the money put out for this player, the macroblocking issue is pretty big. I can deal with the slow menu changes and even the i-link (since my Onkyo 989 doesn't even have i-link on it). If anything, I have been defending Denon in this forum because I still think the 5900 is the best player going right now, BUT....that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see the MPEG decoder fixed :-).

Dave

[PedroV]

Kris,

Isn't it possible to fix or attenuate the macroblocking issue in software? I have a Holo3D II. The drivers and software that come with it have a profound effect on the way the chips (FLI2300, decoders) interact with the final picture. They have been improving their behavior quiet a lot since the first versions.
Wouldn't it be possible for Denon to do the same thing, including the fix in a future firmware?

Does anyone know how to check the firmware version on the Denon? It would be interesting to see if the European model (A11) also has this issue and if the firmware is the same.

Thanks

[gandley]

the uk version A11 does have the issue

[dpippel]

The player is not broke and believe it or not, there are people other than the very few people on-line who don't obsess over every little defect a DVD player has. You need to put things into prospective, these are not heart monitors.
To those people who are seeing the macroblocking I'd say that the MPEG decoder as implemented is "broke" Tom. From a CUSTOMER'S perspective, they've just spent $1.5-$2K on a top-of-the-line player with a reproducable video problem that so far cannot be corrected. And let's be realistic about this player - the videophile/audiophile customer that it's being marketed to WILL obsess over tiny details like this one. We're not talking about a $200 mass-market item here. Products like the 5900 should indeed be subjected to a higher level of engineering, design review, testing, and quality control than the players crowding Wal-mart aisles during the holidays.

No it's not a heart monitor, but it's a damned expensive piece of of home theater gear and Denon's current flagship DVD product. I don't think telling people to just accept something that should have been identified and corrected early in this machine's development process is fair just because you don't consider it a big deal. In my opinion it's a legitimate gripe.

[PedroV]

Dustin,

On a German forum, they are talking about some hardware fixes to the Denon A11 related to the DVI output and RGB.
They are also saying that models above S.N. .....900 (gold model), ....500 (black model) have the fix.

Do you happen to know if the fix somehow addresses the macroblocking issue?

[Martin Butler]

It's really a shame this is happening because Denon delivered so much of what was promised and this may end up being a major problem for Denon, even if it's relatively minor to some.

[Kris Deering]

I think with Denon being aware of it, and me talking to them on it, they'll address it. Whether it can be fixed is the issue. It would most likely be a completely new MPEG decoder, which is a player redesign. This isn't something that just gets swapped out easily. I'll let you know more, when I know more.

[Tulsa1]

Kris,
All factors considered, which of the two being Denon 5900 or the
Pioneer DV59AVi would be your choice to feed DVI/HDMI
to a Pioneer 1110HD display?
Unless you think component connections would be just as well.

[Kris Deering]

Martin

Hard to say since I haven't done all the tests for the Pioneer yet. It is also a matter of what your sensitive to. The Denon looks fabulous with 99% of the stuff I watch on it. The Pioneer continues to use a proprietary de-interlacing solution that I just don't care for personally, but others don't mind it.

You should feed any display HDMI/DVI if it is available, this will always be the preferred method. I think either of these players will produce a picture that most will be happy with, but I give the edge to Denon with the Faroudja solution.

[Martin Butler]

Kris, which MPEG decoder do you consider the best, and is it currently available?

[Dave Vaughn]

Martin,
I believe the ESS decoder is in the 2900 and 2200 as well and these problems aren't apparent. Maybe ESS changed something on Denon and didn't inform them or maybe Denon has not implemented the chip properly. Just a guess on my part.

Dave

[Martin Butler]

Dave, good guess, I think Kris said something to that effect in a previous post. He's working on getting a response from Denon. I'm looking forward to hearing more from those using DVI outputs. The quality of the DVD playback has been spoken of as fantastic (macroblocking aside), so I'm assuming the DVI out will be even better, unless the tweaks Kris mentioned don't work with DVI outs.

[Woodrow]

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
Martin,
I believe the ESS decoder is in the 2900 and 2200 as well and these problems aren't apparent. Maybe ESS changed something on Denon and didn't inform them or maybe Denon has not implemented the chip properly. Just a guess on my part.

Dave


The Denon site says:

5900: ESS Vibrato Chroma-Bug free mpeg.
2900: Chroma-Bug free Mitsubishi mpeg.

Are you guys saying these are actually the same decoders?

[Woodrow]

Well, the SECRETS website says the maker of the decoder in the 5900 is ESS Vibrato. It also states the decoder in the 2900 is made by Mitsubishi. I'm going by that until I hear different from Denon.

[Kris Deering]

The 5900 uses a totally different MPEG decoder then any other Denon player. The 3800 and 9000 used an older ESS decoder, but not the same as this player. The 2200 and 2900 use a Mits decoder similar to what Pioneer used to use.

Want to see almost all of the artifacts disappear? Switch the player into interlaced mode. Seems the Faroudja chip is enhancing the issue. It is still there in interlaced mode, so it isn't the Faroudja chip, but it is extremelly subtle. I told Denon my findings but with CES going on I probably won't hear from them for a bit.

[Dave Vaughn]

Martin,
Macroblocking aside, the output is outstanding through the DVI port. The sharpness patterns on AVIA are perfect.

Kris,
Thanks for clarifying the decoder. I knew that Denon had used the ESS decoder before, but wasn't sure of which player it was in. I look forward to hearing Denon's response.

Dave

[Woodrow]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
The 5900 uses a totally different MPEG decoder then any other Denon player. The 3800 and 9000 used an older ESS decoder, but not the same as this player. The 2200 and 2900 use a Mits decoder similar to what Pioneer used to use.

Want to see almost all of the artifacts disappear? Switch the player into interlaced mode. Seems the Faroudja chip is enhancing the issue. It is still there in interlaced mode, so it isn't the Faroudja chip, but it is extremelly subtle. I told Denon my findings but with CES going on I probably won't hear from them for a bit.

Thanks for the clarification Kris. I figured if the 5900 and 2900 shared the same decoder we'd have heard about it.

[pnichols]

Both the Denon 3800 and 9000 use the ESS Vibratto ES6038F MPEG decoder and since neither have reported macro-blocking problems, then the 5900 problem could arise from either:

A) A different ESS Vibratto decoder

or

B) The Faroudja deinterlacer or Denon's implementation of it

or

C) Faroudja deinterlacer inter-action with the ESS Vibratto.

BTW, certain key combinations on the 3800 show on it's display the ESS decoder being used. Perhaps there are similar codes for the 5900 that show which ESS Vibratto part number is inside.

[esp1]

"On a German forum, they are talking about some hardware fixes to the Denon A11 related to the DVI output and RGB."

Which forum? URL? News?

What's wrong about the RGB output?


Esp1

[Kris Deering]

Phil

The Faroudja definately enhances the issue, but it is still there without it. The problem lies in the ESS chip. Denon is indeed looking into it. They have also informed me that they will have a firmware fix for the i-link shortly.

[Dave Vaughn]

Kris,
That is great news on a firmware fix. I sincerely hope that they can fix the MPEG issue with a firmware fix as well (begging on my knees!).

Thanks,

Dave

[Kris Deering]

We'll see. I hope so too. I remember when Stacey and I didn't believe they could fix the chroma bug that was on the ESS decoder for the 9000 but they came through completely, so miracles can happen. Just cross your fingers I guess.

[Martin Butler]

Got them crossed on both hands! Thanks for keeping us in the loop Kris.

[lostchild]

Kris, I just got the European version of the 5900 and the macroblocking is there. It's quite a serious issue, not just a videophile's obsession with perfection. It's quite in your face. I was watching Kubrick's 2001 through DVI on my Marantz S3 projector and the macroblocking on the first scenes of the movie, on the halo around the planets, is UNWATCHABLE. And this is after Avia disc calibration. I started tweaking the player and I got more or less to your same conclusions, but in order to get rid of the bug (or to hide it, at least) I had to set black level down to -4. The problem is: you lose quite a lot of shadow detail with this setting. The player is set to 0 IRE by the way. 7.5 IRE made things even worse.
I didn't play with the 3DNR settings mainly because I didn't even know what it was but I'll try this evening.
I really hope the macroblocking problem can be fixed. and that the fix will be easily available for the A11, the european version too.
Lowering black level is an acceptable but hopefully temporary solution for now.
By the way, "2001" (I have the Pal version) is an excellent test disc for macroblocking. the first planets scenes of the movie are quite unforgiving.

Luca


Originally posted by Kris Deering
Okay I have all but completely remedied the bug on my player. This is through trial and error using the 20 and 30 IRE window patterns on AVIA, which exhibit the problem consistently, and the worse in my opinion. You will have to go a bit back and forth with the settings in your player and the settings on your monitor though.

Starting with my display completely set correctly using DVE and the player's settings completely in the neutral positions but black level set at 0 IRE. I adjusted the following settings in the DVD player under the picture adjustments.

Black Level : -2
White Level : +1
3DNR: +5

I went back and forth trying lots of different settings. Be aware that your contrast and brightness settings on your monitor will have an affect too. But I was able to maintain the proper contrast and brightness levels on my monitor and use these settings. This eliminated 99% of the issue on the 20 IRE pattern and 100% on the 30 IRE. I will watch some DVDs over the next week and see what it does for background noise. I did evaluate some of my reference DVDs to see if there was any adverse effects to the image with the 3DNR setting that high, but I couldn't find anything. The image was superb with "The Fifth Element Superbit Edition" with fantastic depth and detail.

These settings may not work completely based on whatever monitor you have and its settings. If you adjust these one and a time using those window patterns you can dial in the picture. I would go one at a time and take each one to the level needed to eliminate as much as each one could. Adding them on top of each other tweaked it in even farther until I was able to almost completely eliminate it. If any of you try this, please let me know how it goes. I think most of these adjustment on the player are done directly in the MPEG decoder and are not parameters adjusted in the Faroudja chipset.

[gandley]

Its quite interesting but i think the macroblocking issue is a lot worse with pal software. i have mostly ntsc software but the few pal discs i have feature more evident macroblocking. i know pal disc are known for there poor decoding which is probaly the problem but it can be as lostchild said unwatchable or as i think plain awful.


a fix PLEASE !!!

[Martin Butler]

Lostchild, I'm sorry to hear that the macroblocking is so serious in your system. Are you thinking of returning your A11?

[lostchild]

Martin: no, at least not for now. I only watched four or five movied with it, and the only time I really noticed the macroblocking was with the 2001 movie. I know it's not the disc because I watched that movie twice before, with the A1 (Denon 9000) and the picture was great. I'll see if it starts to get annoying with other dvds. My impression is that you see it only in a limited number of scenes, like long shots with light halos on dark backgrounds (2001 is full of those scenes). And the lower black level tweak made it acceptable. the price to pay for that is - unfortunately - a loss of shadow detail.
I'll just wait and see what happens with other dvds and if denon finds a fix.
I also want to get a region 1 version of 2001 to see if PAL really makes it worse. I live in Europe but 90% of my dvds are region 1.

[Martin Butler]

lostchild, good luck, keep us posted.

[gandley]

Kris

i take it that i-link fix will enable use with pioneer i-link amps?

[Earz]

Originally posted by dpippel
To those people who are seeing the macroblocking I'd say that the MPEG decoder as implemented is "broke" Tom. From a CUSTOMER'S perspective, they've just spent $1.5-$2K on a top-of-the-line player with a reproducable video problem that so far cannot be corrected. And let's be realistic about this player - the videophile/audiophile customer that it's being marketed to WILL obsess over tiny details like this one. We're not talking about a $200 mass-market item here. Products like the 5900 should indeed be subjected to a higher level of engineering, design review, testing, and quality control than the players crowding Wal-mart aisles during the holidays.

No it's not a heart monitor, but it's a damned expensive piece of of home theater gear and Denon's current flagship DVD product. I don't think telling people to just accept something that should have been identified and corrected early in this machine's development process is fair just because you don't consider it a big deal. In my opinion it's a legitimate gripe.

You are correct sir, and anyone who defends this players macro blocking, transport grinding /lockup or any other obvious defect to those of us that have had problems comes off looking like...well you know;)

[lostchild]

and again: it's not a tiny detail. i bought the marantz 8300 dvd player when it came out and I thought the chroma bug of that player was a tiny detail. even the dvi issue with the A11/5900 is a tiny detail. but the macroblocking is actually forcing me to watch movies with a not properly calibrated player, with darker images and loss of shadow detail in order to mask the bug.
i wouldn't start to attack denon for this though: we should admit that they're always listening, trying to fix problems and to please even the most demanding videophile.
it's just that sometimes **** happens.
I'm sure they will come up with a solution. my player is brand new, still under warranty. I'm confident that when the fix will be found we'll get it.
denon jeff? are you there? :)

Luca

[nighthacker]

I think Denon Jeff is at the CES Show right now. I just watched Underworld last night on my 5900 and even though the movie sucked the transfer was rock solid. Their was no macroblocking and this movie is very dark. I have had the 5900 since October and in that time I have only seen this problem 2 times. My display is a Toshiba 57hx81 (CRT Based) which has been ISF'd and the 5900 has not been tweaked and is run totally flat.

Maybe we should start a thread listing the movie that you saw with the type of display and if it has been calibrated. Then indicate if you saw macroblocking and at what point. I believe that with this information other people can check to see if they see the same thing and report back. I bet the problem lies not so much with the 5900 but instead with the 5900 plus X (x being the calibrated display device that is being used). Anyway, that is my 2 cents. What do you guy's think?

[Kris Deering]

Originally posted by Earz
You are correct sir, and anyone who defends this players macro blocking, transport grinding /lockup or any other obvious defect to those of us that have had problems comes off looking like...well you know;)

I still don't understand some of the people on this thread. Guess I come off like ..... then because I still think most of you are either:

a. setting up your display wrong

b. have a defective unit

c. don't know how to set up the player right

d. all of the above

I don't have any idea what you are referring to with this grinding/lockup problem but I have had 3 players already and none have done anything that would fit that description. And after reading LOTS of threads on this player you seem to be the only person with this problem, so I don't think Denon needs to stop production and send out a massive recall on it.

The artifacts that are being referred to as "macroblocking" appear to be rounding errors in the MPEG decoder. While I admit freely that I see them in the AVIA test patterns in the lower IREs and room light references, I have yet to see ANYTHING in the more then 100 DVDs I have played with the player. So here I look at a bunch of people saying that this player was too bad to live with yet I still don't have referrences to films that produce this "macroblocking". The only title I have seen is Unbreakable, which was compression issues that I could reproduce on another player.

The MPEG decoder does have issues, but it may not be broken. If there is no set tolerance for rounding errors, then ESS may not be liable. And again I stress that I find it seriously hard to believe that Denon would have been able to catch this at ALL before selling these units.

For all of you who think this player is a piece of junk, fine. I hope your happy with whatever other perfect player you find out there. I personally have been enjoying phenominal video and audio on this unit for the last few months and plan to continue to do so for quite sometime. I really hope that people can read through this post and sift through the drama that some are making, because this is a great player that I think most would be overjoyed with.

[kevinca1]

Kris you once again state what 99.9999999% of the people who own it think of this player. The only one i can say i seen it on was treasure planet but i do not hink its macroblocking due to i seen it on the laptop and pc also. So i am not sure that was actually that. You may want to check it out,

[Kris Deering]

The issues with Treasure Planet are compression problems, and they are evident with all players. Most animation studios tend to put too much on a single disc since they want so many extras for the kiddies. This was apparent with Monster's Inc and Finding Nemo as well since they included full screen and widescreen presentations on the same disc.

[hovbuild]

Kris I would like to thank you for all of your research! I got my 5900 this week and it is a thing of "beauty"! Hooked up through either component or dvi it is just assume!!!

[mgoldsmith]

i've only had my DVD-A11 (aka 5900) for a few days now and even though i was fully aware of this macroblocking problem decided it was worth the purchase, seeing as i felt there's chance of this problem being resolved. And it seems only to seriously effect a small number of titles (what people should really be complaining moreso about is the lack of Q.A. from a DVD authoring standpoint and i'm sure this number of identified problems would be even lower than currently reported)

Anyway, the only other choice to get DVI out of a player in Australia at this stage is the Marantz DV8400, and seeing as they have been a slack bunch of ****** and still release a brand new player WITH the Chroma Bug error, i didn't want any part of it.

So far the picture and sound quality of the A11 are quite remarkable for the price of this player.

the only real complaints/issues i have with this player at the moment are :

- the god aweful looking menu system (i hope the money they saved on the menus went into better audio and video stages :)

- rather slow menu changes (i had heard it was slow, but damn it's VERY slow... and i'm comparing to a 5 year old DVD player with average menu changes....surely Denon can remedy this problem, as i often make a selection, wait a moment, and then wonder if it worked!....... i'm wondering what's going on inside the box once i push the button....and it takes so long to respond to my commands)

- DVI doesn't stay permanently active on my player, but i'll be chasing up the firmware fix for that one.

- one of the worse manuals i've encountered.... it's as if Denon don't want to you use any of the features included as they give the most non-descript definition/processes of each and every feature available. (luckily i like to fiddle with my new toys, so will discover the how/what/when/where and why by myself, as well as what i read in forums like this one)

my old remote control also included a light activation button on the side to illuminate the main buttons, and i really really miss it (along with the proper jog/shuttle dial which is ever so handy for getting back and forth within a scene)

BUT after all that's said, with the sight and sound that comes out of this player, i certainly won't be going back to my old player in a hurry :)

Matt.G

[AV Avatar]

A little ray of sunshine.

I was seeing subtitle pop ups and colour tiling. As well, my processor would lock up and need to be shutdown and restarted to clear the problem. Another issue was with DSOTM and the muting that was happening between tracks.

Well, all of these issues have been fixed by a simple firmware update from the kind folks at Denon Canada. The firmware was sent in a package that had five discs and was done in two phases. The latest firmware contains the following updates: ESS - 6334-1, MAKE DAY - 1015, DRV - 030825, SYSTEM - 6542-1. DSP1 - 6332 and DSP2 - 6333. My advice would be to make sure the latest firmware is loaded as apparently my player was shipped to the dealer without the newest firmware even though the DVI menus were available. I was also informed that even though the DVI options were available that this was not the correct way to verify if the DVI update had been applied. The only way to tell for sure is the firmware display.

One down side to the upgrade though is now I too am seeing the slower menu access that others have criticized. All in all though I'm a happy camper.

[gandley]

How do i check which firmware version im using?

[PedroV]

Mgoldsmith,
My advice would be to make sure the latest firmware is loaded as apparently my player was shipped to the dealer without the newest firmware even though the DVI menus were available. I was also informed that even though the DVI options were available that this was not the correct way to verify if the DVI update had been applied. The only way to tell for sure is the firmware display.
I would also like to know how to check the firmware version on the 5900/A11 :)

Thanks

[esp1]

Kris Deering wrote:

"a. setting up your display wrong"

A straw man argument thrown in every time it seems.

"b. have a defective unit"

In that case the Denon quality control must suck becaus there appear to be a lot of people with defectiv units out there.

The player is made by a plant in China (such a high end unit should really be made in Japan IMO and not at the same assembly line which produces a sub 100 USD player the next day...)

"c. don't know how to set up the player right"


Maybe because both the manual and the players set up menu is terrible.


Come on Kris and admit that neither the badly designed remote, unbelivable slooooooow response time or the awfully designed set-up/user menus belongs in a product in the 2000 USD range.... These points alone is enough to fail the player.

Using a A11/5900 is like driving a high performance car with ocassional glitches in an engine (perhaps a weak engine which really should not have been used in such an expensive car) and without power steering and a heater/air condition unit. It would most likely be impossible to sell.

Then there is the issue of a non-working IEEE1394 output and aspect ratio problems with the DVI output. Both glitches who should not been allowed to exist in a 2000 USD player.

Quite frankly; I can't see why you take so lightly on these issues.

It puzzles my mind to see that Denon actually choses to manufacture a product with such weaknesses. Their other cheaper players are better performers than their top model in this regards...

"For all of you who think this player is a piece of junk, fine. I hope your happy with whatever other perfect player you find out there. I personally have been enjoying phenominal video and audio on this unit for the last few months and plan to continue to do so for quite sometime."

Unlike you I don't get factory deals on Denon products and unfortunately I can't afford to swap out a 2000 USD player every 6 months.

I'm sure you will swap out the 5900 the second a new unit comes out without the MPEG-2 rounding errors.


Espen Braathen

[pbir]

AV Avatar,

Have you noticed any other fixes with the firmware upgrade you just installed (such as menu navigation speed, DVI handshaking sequence, macroblocking, i-link with other brands of processors) ?

Paul.

[kevinca1]

ESP1 first what kris says is right. This player may have a few minor problems but so do evey other player on the market. There have been very few people that like kris ask them to do name the dvds that cause it. I have not seen it either and i have a mits46809. just because a few people have a problem everyone wants to call it apiece of junk. That is far from true the only thing i wish they did was use silicon chip. but the pic is awesome with the faroudja, and the sound is in a league by itself. so like kris says you dont like it fine take it back.the menus wher a little slower but come on does that make the world end.

[Ken Stokes]

Great post Kris. Had I not already owned the 5900 and read this thread I don't think I'd have purchased it. That is a serious responsibility on us as posters to forum that people look to for advice. I'm in manufacturing and can assure you that no product in this universe that is mass produced is perfect every time. In fact if we can keep defects below 1% of production we consider it very successful.

The 5900 is a very good player for the price, better than a couple I tried that were much more expensive. I'm glad there is a voice of reason out there.

Ken

[Ken Stokes]

Great post Kris. Had I not already owned the 5900 and read this thread I don't think I'd have purchased it. That is a serious responsibility on us as posters to forum that people look to for advice. I'm in manufacturing and can assure you that no product in this universe that is mass produced is perfect every time. In fact if we can keep defects below 1% of production we consider it very successful.

The 5900 is a very good player for the price, better than a couple I tried that were much more expensive. I'm glad there is a voice of reason out there.

Ken

[Earz]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
I still don't understand some of the people on this thread. Guess I come off like ..... then because I still think most of you are either:

a. setting up your display wrong

b. have a defective unit

c. don't know how to set up the player right

d. all of the above

I don't have any idea what you are referring to with this grinding/lockup problem but I have had 3 players already and none have done anything that would fit that description. And after reading LOTS of threads on this player you seem to be the only person with this problem, so I don't think Denon needs to stop production and send out a massive recall on it.

The artifacts that are being referred to as "macroblocking" appear to be rounding errors in the MPEG decoder. While I admit freely that I see them in the AVIA test patterns in the lower IREs and room light references, I have yet to see ANYTHING in the more then 100 DVDs I have played with the player. So here I look at a bunch of people saying that this player was too bad to live with yet I still don't have referrences to films that produce this "macroblocking". The only title I have seen is Unbreakable, which was compression issues that I could reproduce on another player.

The MPEG decoder does have issues, but it may not be broken. If there is no set tolerance for rounding errors, then ESS may not be liable. And again I stress that I find it seriously hard to believe that Denon would have been able to catch this at ALL before selling these units.

For all of you who think this player is a piece of junk, fine. I hope your happy with whatever other perfect player you find out there. I personally have been enjoying phenominal video and audio on this unit for the last few months and plan to continue to do so for quite sometime. I really hope that people can read through this post and sift through the drama that some are making, because this is a great player that I think most would be overjoyed with.


Kris, maybe you better read the original 5900 thread again as you will find that I was not the only one whith the transport grinding/ total lockup of the player among the first owners.
I was one of just a few that described it correctly though.

Mine 5900 only did this once while playing an sa-cd which had played fine earlier and afterwards.
Others had this happen while playing dvd's or sa-cd's and it was clearly talked about in the original thread.
Again, I don't see were your experience whith the 5900 or anyone else who had no problems has to do whith those of us that did.
This happened in the first 24 hours and required that the 5900 be unplugged to get it to respond to anything....hence total player lockup that was preceeded by violent transport grinding.
This is no secret.

I tried for two weeks to adjust for the macro blocking and excessive video noise in some dark scenes to no avail.

I do not think the 5900 was junk....just full of obvious bugs in my case, as well as many others.
I did see the awsome picture that you see on a lot of transfers and this makes it that much harder to except the terrible picture on some dark scene transfers.

I would buy another 5900 in a minute, if it were bug free on the video side and except that the transport grinding was a fluke to certain first batch machines.
As a matter a fact, if your going to continue to defend the 5900 bugs as being the fault of the owners lack of set up, I guess I will have to go get another 5900 because I hope you ARE right.

A modified for better audio 5900 was my plan and dream player minus the problems.

Calling the transport problem or the macro blocking Drama, is rediculous at best and very unproffesional of YOU. imho

[brusteraider]

Go ahead and take yours back I'm keeping mine this player has performed flawlessly with everything I've thrown at it! I think this has been mentioned before but maybe the 5900 just isn't a good match with your display devices?

[gandley]

i realy do like my 5900 (well A11 in my case) it is truly awsome and now with the hope i-link will be fixed im a much happier customer.

however macro blocking isnt a small deal. you can find a mention of it on most AV forums world wide, so this isnt a small time rant of a couple of people who regret spending there cash on such a dvd player.
this is in fact an actual issue. it is more noticable if you own a PJ as i dont realy see it on my plasma too much but on my pj which is calibrated i do see it more. take "brother where art thou" this dvd delivers a stunning pic but macro blocking is evident in all dark scenes.

if the blocking could be corrected by 50% via firmware than that would be ok by me.

[Dave Vaughn]

Gandley,
I agree with you and love the player. The only issue is the macroblocking. My wife doesn't even notice there is anything wrong, but I have a more detailed eye. I watched SWAT last night and the scenes at the end of the movie had a ton of noise in them and a little macroblocking. I think the noise I noticed was because of the macroblock "fix" that Kris came up with. I will rewatch it today with the "fix" undone to see if the scenes look any better. I too hope that there is a firmware fix for the 5900 to fix the macroblocking. I can deal with the slow menu's because once the movie starts, it is a non-issue. I just want awesome PQ.

Dave

[kevinca1]

Kris has spent alot of time to try and help with this player to see if he sees this problem and most of you dont seem to appriciate his work. you want to critcize him. he spends his own time on this and is not paid by anyone to do this but as a favor to us and others who repsect his and secrets opinions. so if you dont like his opinion or the 5900 then take it back and dont worry about it. those that love this player and respect his opinion will keep theres and will be happy.

[gandley]

Well i thank kris for his candor and for his dedication to help us and the fact he has some weight to liase with denon on these topics. so i am full of respect for him and hold no negitive idears against him. infact i wish denon would show the same dedication he does.
i look forward to his repones with eager anticipation. nuff said realy

[AV Avatar]

pbir and others,

For those who would like to know how to check the firmware revision on their 5900:

1) power the player off with the front panel power button

2) while holding the play and open/close buttons down, power the player on using the front panel power switch until you see the play and pause icons appear on the display

3) press the enter button on the remote to toggle through the various firmware registries

4) turn the power off using the power button on the front of the player to exit the firmware display mode

As I said before the only downside I noticed after the upgrade was the slow menu navigation that others were seeing compared to the earlier firmware. When I first received the 5900 I didn't understand the hoopla over the menu speed but now I see what the fuss was about. Not a deal breaker in my opinion though. The good thing is that I have seen it is possible to make the menu nav functions quicker with firmware. However, I wouldn't take the problems I was seeing back for the speed difference.

[Dave Vaughn]

Avatar,
Can you check with AVIA or VE 20 IRE window patterns to see if you see the "macroblocking" there? Thanks.

Dave

[AV Avatar]

Dave,

I will check both the 20 and 30 IRE windows tonight and report back. As I am only running the player into my older XBR interlaced, the macro blocking issue has never really been a problem for me.

I have noticed one thing that was of interest. When I was resetting up the player after the update, I noticed that the M1 picture setting (with no changes from default) was blacker and a bit less grainy (for lack of a better term) than the standard setting even after I had changed to the 0 IRE setting. It was however lower in over all light output as well. I will report back.

Kris, would you mind checking the firmware on your player? You seem to have a better handle on the whole macro blocking thing.

[Martin Butler]

Kevinca, I think being you're too quick to tell someone to take their 5900 back if they don't like it, well duh... that's obvious. I think you're missing the point by underplaying how upsetting it can be for someone to invest serious time and money in a product only to discover it's not quite ready for prime time. People are stretching their budgets to reach the $1500 price point for the 5900 because they are hoping the power of a large manufacturer can help to create a product superior to some higher end brands at a better price. These people deserve forthright answers from Denon and respect for their experience from other forum members.

Anyone who says that very slow menus are a minor point is flat out wrong or in denial. After using a product for a year or two, things like that can become unbearably annoying. What's worse is that it makes no sense. How does a major manufacturer release a product with something so basic as the menu system being so poorly implemented? Didn't they watch a DVD or two in full before releasing it, or did they and let it go anyway? They've made many players without that problem, so how did that become acceptable to the designers, and why are they willing to send out a product with such a weakness? Maybe Denon doesn't have as much integrity as some would like us to believe. Someone dropped the ball and consumers are left trying to pick it up. Denon may eventually offer a fix, but it shouldn't have happened in the first place and defies logic as to exactly how it did.

You've taken on a role of proud Denon defender in every Denon thread I've seen. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that you don't have lots of experience with other higher end brands, so your perspective is biased by what you know best, Denon. Denon has been at the cutting edge of the mid-fi market for a long time now. To their credit they are often the first to offer up to date features that higher end brands struggle to catch up with, but in general, they have rarely, if ever outperformed higher end gear.

If you insist on loving your Denon products warts and all, that's fine by me, but when you start defending it regardless of how legitimate the complaints are, trying to quiet those voices who've committed their hard earned dollars to buying a Denon product who have reasonable questions and complaints, I wonder about your motives, perspective and experience.

I'm here because I'm interested in a multi format player of high quality without major quirks. I'd consider the slowest menu on the planet a quirk, wouldn't you? I suggest the members who've experienced dissapointing results from the 5900 contact Denon and raise the roof. Maybe as enthusists we're used to the idea of a possible firmware fix, but most consumers rightfully expect that $1500 buys a properly working product, not one that needs all sorts of fixes.

Kevinca, you see, I want Denon to come out a winner, but I'm not willing to beta test for free. My synopsis of some opinions here is that when it works, it's fantastic, but very frustrating at times. People shouldn't be advised to overlook faults that were entirely avoidable.

Simply put, incredibly slow menus and a weird MPEG decoding fault at $1500, what's up with that? I smell a sell out somewhere.

[Dave Vaughn]

AV Avatar,
Here is the firmware on my 5900:

Make Day 1015
System 6542-1
DSP1 6332
DSP2 6333
ESS 6334-1

Curious to see what others have.

Dave

[AV Avatar]

Dave,

It seems you have the latest (dated November 2003 on my discs) software as it matches my player now. I have in the course of checking my dealer's player and my previous firmware discovered there is the possibility of at least 3 revisions of older firmware out there. As I mentioned before, every aspect of the issues I was seeing are gone - no subtitles pop up, no more tiling artifacts, no more processor lock ups and even DSOTM plays without interruptions. However, I do hope that they can return the menu speed to earlier revision speeds. With my older firmware the menu speed was simply not an issue.

[Dave Vaughn]

AV Avatar,
I have only seen the subtitles pop up in LOTR:TT with the latest firmware. I do have the macroblocking though in some instances. That is the one issue I want cleared up.

Dave

[Martin Butler]

Dave Vaughn: "That is the one issue I want cleared up".

Rightfully so, Dave.

[Digione]

Well, I have just spent the last 3 days putting my new 5900 through its paces and being an owner of the 2900 and ex-owner of the Sony 999ES I have a few observations to share, especially after reading all the 5900 threads.

The unit is from the latest batch and was already DVI activated. My display is a broadcast calibrated Sony VPL VW 11HT with a high gain 106" 16x9 Da-Lite screen running with analog progressive component input with no setup.

VIDEO - All controls to default except 0IRE setup

Firstly, and most importantly, MY unit does NOT macroblock on test signals, or anything else for that matter. I have run it through ALL the test signals on Video Essentials, Digital Video Essentials and Avia. I ran it through the full and windowed fields several times with no evidence of this effect. The only effect that occurred, and only ONCE, was that on the low IRE windowed fields there was some random noise, but NO evidence of any macroblocking. Believe me I know what macroblocking is and MY unit does not exhibit it with my display.

The picture quality is truly excellent, significantly sharper than the 2900 without the awful over enhancement of the 999. Black level performance was equal to the 2900 with less chroma noise and a better"depth" to the image.

The Faroudja scaler does an excellent job with negligible artifacts and more "tweaks" than I would ever need!

I have to date seen one layer change of about 0.25secs (Star Wars II) out of about 20 discs.

I can not imagine any SD player providing any significant video performance over this one .

I am unable to test the DVI output as I do not own a suitable display or projector.


AUDIO

What can I say that has not already been said about this players audio performance. The analog output sounded outstanding on all formats; DD,DTS,DVDA,SACD and CD. It was open, smooth, great bass extension with outstanding imaging and HF detail.


CONTROL - Menu

Well in a word it sucks. LOL. Why it has to take 3 seconds to execute a menu command is beyond my comprehension, but I suppose it is a small price to pay for what is in my opinion my last SD DVD player.



I can finally say that I am truly content with my DVD player (my wife is so happy) and am eagerly awaiting the delivery of a Denon AVR 5300.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Regards

Paul

[Martin Butler]

Digione:
CONTROL - Menu
"Well in a word it sucks. LOL. Why it has to take 3 seconds to execute a menu command is beyond my comprehension, but I suppose it is a small price to pay for what is in my opinion my last SD DVD player."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
That, I can understand and support Digione, it's a reasonable trade off if your aware of it before buying. Otherwise Denon needs a disclaimer.

[Dave Vaughn]

Digione,
Can you please check you firmware version.

Thanks,

Dave

PS I cant play 20,000 leagues under the sea for some reason. It locks up at chapter 5. This is the only disk I have had a problem with. It plays in 2 other DVD players in my house. If anyone else can check, that would be great.

Thanks

[nighthacker]

Dave,
I played the S.W.A.T. widescreen DVD on my 5900 and their was no macroblocking at all. The picture was solid all the way through. My display is a Toshiba 57hx81 (CRT based) that has been ISF'd and the 5900 running flat except for it being switched to 0 IRE.

[Dave Vaughn]

nighthacker,
I didnt' see macroblocking. What a really saw was picture noise in the background (blacks). I think this is due to Kris's fix with the DNR set to +5. I believe it is too high and is causing other problems. I will rewatch the problem scenes without the "fixes" applied to see if it looks better. Now that I remember, Kris had some problems with noise with The Fellowship of the Ring. Do you have 20,000 leagues under the Sea? My 5900 won't play past chapter 5 and 2 other players in my house will. The wife isn't happy. We had to watch the rest of the movie on a 20 inch 4x3 TV in the playroom.

Thanks,

Dave

[Earz]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Martin Butler
[B]Kevinca, I think being you're too quick to tell someone to take their 5900 back if they don't like it, well duh... that's obvious. I think you're missing the point by underplaying how upsetting it can be for someone to invest serious time and money in a product only to discover it's not quite ready for prime time. People are stretching their budgets to reach the $1500 price point for the 5900 because they are hoping the power of a large manufacturer can help to create a product superior to some higher end brands at a better price. These people deserve forthright answers from Denon and respect for their experience from other forum members.

Exactly right....except I paid 2k for mine.

If these 5900 defenders would look into the possibility of the macro blocking and excess video noise in all too many dark scenes as something that is due to use whith DLP's ect as a reason for some having more problems than others, I could live whith that,
But to say that all problems can be taken care of whith proper calibration...assuming that we have not calibrated are display or in my case, also tried 8 different players whithout any video noise.

This makes me mad....plain and simple...as it would anyone who had more than just a one case minor problem whith a 2k player.

I am not picking every little thing about the 5900 apart like the slow menu or the 1 year warranty ect, I could live whith those things and the transport grinding/ lockup of the player which is evidently rare enough that it was only reported on a few of the first batch machines.



And yes my dealer talked to the Denon rep about the transport grinding incident as well as the macro blocking and excessive video noise on some transfers way before the player results from secrets were released, but yet I have heard nothing back.

I would and do agree 100% whith the secrets reccomendation of the 5900 except for in the cases were the the macro blocking issues can't be ressolved.

I will get another 5900 next week just to make sure it was not something specific to that player, assuming they have one in stock.

I will adjust it and see what happens whith regards to macro blocking and excess video noise in some dark scenes.

To those that own a 5900 whithout problem...congratulations and enjoy it as I know I would.

I have seen no one post that the 5900 was junk or that it needed to be perfect in every way,but if a few of you defenders could look at this from the perspective of those of us who wanted to keep there 5900 but could not justify the 2k whith macro blocking ect, then maybe we would hear from some more owners and figure out why.

It seems to me that some are trying to silence those that have had problems just because they have none, or were able to resolve theres.

I would never question any of you that said you had no problems as this would be rediculous, much the same as suggesting to us that were making things up for drama:rolleyes:


I want to hear about the good, the bad and the ugly of this or any other player and refuse to let anyone silence those opinions.
This is why I vist here and I can't beleive that some are closed minded or brand loyal or what have you whith respect to any brand or model. enough to have the nerve to question anyones opinions in such a mannor.

[dr1394]

An important note on the 20 and 30 IRE window patterns. Kris was actually
using a different version of Avia called "Sound and Vision Home Theater Tune-up"
and NOT the regular Avia disk. The 20 and 30 IRE patterns on the regular Avia
disk are flat and will not show the "macroblocking" problem.

Also, it's spelled "ridiculous".

Ron

[kevinca1]

The macro blocking is encoded on the disk can you agree with that? if so then how can you blame the player for playing whats encoded? It also seems the ones who see this is on dlps and plasmas. I have a crt and most that do do not see this like those that dont have crts. The manual also states it is not compatable with all devices. my problem is people slamming a player from one or two people having a problem. if you looked at the great bravo you want to talk about people igonoring juts look at all the problems that they have and people keep saying they are the best thing since sliced bread.but i do not see people saying like they do with the 5900 not to buy it so how is that fair and its not here?Kris knows more then i and most of us all will ever know and he is being slammed for if you want to call defending the player its not right,

[Dave Vaughn]

Kevin,
What part of California are you in?

Dave

[Martin Butler]

"The macro blocking is encoded on the disk can you agree with that"? Kevinca
____________________________________________________

No. Kris has stated the MPEG decoder reveals this and that it should not do so.
______________________________________________________
Kevinca:"my problem is people slamming a player from one or two people having a problem".

This is getting silly. It's not one or two people. Without going back to the top of this thread and listing the number of complaints and the number of people with them, I'll bet it's more than one or two, so please stop being an apologist for Denon. By the way, there's a rule of thumb in marketing, one customer complaint represents about 250 customers with similar issues.

When using the Bravo for a comparison are you not able to discern the difference between a $200 Bravo and a $2000 Denon? It's quite "fair" to have different expectations from the Denon. I believe most people here purchased the Bravo for it's DVI output and ability to play copy guarded material through DVI, not as a fine all around player.

This "not compatible with all devices" has no bearing on the issues here, other than to protect Denon from frivolous lawsuits. Get real, this is simply a typical cover your ass legal disclaimer. It's not written to mean " may not be compatible with many plasma and DLP devices"

Lastly, Kris isn't being slammed at all. Another exaggeration. He has been honestly thanked for his efforts by more than a few people (myself included) and I believe he knows how appreciated his efforts are. A difference of opinion reasonably expressed is not "slamming", it's one of the things that makes the forum interesting. There are some with different backgrounds and approaches that can offer valuable experience and insights as well, and if that occasionally contradicts some of what Kris and the Secrets guys have to say, it's part of figuring out the bigger picture when researching a new component, not an affront to their integrity. Secrets has a fantastic technical approach to reviews and is one of the best resources I know of, but that doesn't necessarily negate a good reviewers opinion either.

[Milt99]

I can only speak for myself here so....
I don't think anyone is trying to "silence" anyone else here.
But the outrage and length of posts decrying the 5900 are getting a bit repetitive.
Just so we're clear, I really don't give a rat's ass if anyone other than myself loves or hates this player.
I don't take disparaging remarks about the 5900 personally and I don't feel any special loyalty to Denon.
If the player doesn't work for you take it back, get over it and chalk it up to experience.
Maybe Denon will address the issues to everyone's satisfaction and maybe they won't, only time will tell.
I do understand the disappointment and truly wish that everyone is as impressed with the 5900 as I am, but there are and will soon be other players that will have the functionality of the 5900.

[kevinca1]

dave i live close to sac

[kevinca1]

martin this is what i am talking about posted by earz
Kris, maybe you better read the original 5900 thread again as you will find that I was not the only one whith the transport grinding/ total lockup of the player among the first owners.
I was one of just a few that described it correctly though.Calling the transport problem or the macro blocking Drama, is rediculous at best and very unproffesional of YOU. imho

[Joe Murphy Jr]

Ron

How would one go about testing the HDMI output on the Pioneer DV-59AVi? Specifically, whether or not the output was 8-bit or 10/12-bit when hooked up to a HDMI display.

There is question as to what goes on inside the player before it outputs digital video. Does it output 8-bit, regardless of the interfaces in use (DVI or HDMI), or does it internally convert to 10/12-bit when connected to an HDMI display?

There's also a question of whether or not it can output YCbCr, instead of just RGB.

[Martin Butler]

Milt, I agree with you. I admit the length of a few of my posts has been rather long. But what's been repetitive is the consistent apologies for Denon in almost every Denon related thread and it takes some effort to discuss things point by point, so please forgive. The "trying to silence" is my opinion based on this and many other posts, so it may seem a bit of a drastic statement, but I think is a reasonable assessment, all things considered.

Mention a problem and ask any serious questions about them and people have been quickly accused of "Denon bashing". The image I get when the word "bashing" is used is of someone smashing someone else's skull with a baseball bat. This can have a chilling effect on those who wish to participate, but don't feel up to a debate every time they want to express dissatisfaction with a product.

[dinoSnake]

From here, the sidelines, if I may add MOHO Milt and Kevin are right. If some are unhappy with a product, in this case the Denon 5900, then they should return it. There is no shame in this. It was not acceptable to your situation, to your requirements, so return it and move on. It does not matter, *one whit*, how much you spent on it. $300, $3000 or $30,000 - everything, everything in this universe has some level of compromise. If the 5900's compromise does not fit your liking then one should try an alternate product which does.

One does not have to apologize for Denon in making a product which does not meet some people's expectations. That is not being an 'apologist' for Denon - it is being realistic. No device, NONE, will ever satisfy all. That's a fact of life. If it does not satisfy you, personally, others should not have to apologize for saying that it satisfies them, nor does the device have to be radically changed to meet the satisfaction of a group. I think some are allowing ego to play in this decision - "I chose it, I bought it, and I paid a lot for it, so it must be the best and perfect!".

Please note, I am not directly naming names. If you feel that these personal opinions are hitting very close to home then maybe they are more correct than you might like to believe. :)

These are strictly my opinions, I apologize for speaking, but the discussion has deteriorated into a free-for-all argument, speaking as one from the sidelines (I do not own a 5900 but found the discussion interesting, until now). A logical, sound discussion of the problems and possible cures is one thing, a debate over how 'perfect' this item must be, because "I spent $...." and "this is inexcusable" is another. Denon, in this case, made a product as well as it could. If they can improve it with upgrades and corrections they will, most likely, certainly try for the market rewards improved products with greater sales. If the product, as it stands, does not work for you then change to a product which will suit your purposes, but don't deride someone, or a company, for doing the best they could.

Nobody's perfect.

Thank you, and greatest of respects,
Snake

[Joe Murphy Jr]

Maybe the Denon DVD-1x will satisfy?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=348738

Nah...

[kevinca1]

Thanks for yor input snake. what i am saying is that people starting sayin things about kris being unprofessional and i dont think it is fair to say he is "unprofessional". Kris started this thread to get input on what people are seeing and now he is being called that. Martin kris has said the macro blocking is encoded on the dvd it self.

[Milt99]

Martin,
I think some people need to cut Kris just a bit of slack here.
His willingness to delve into the issues people are having and to pass them on to Denon is truly exemplary.
How many other writers do this. I'll answer my own question, none.
My advice is to exercise just a bit of patience.
I know this can be hard when you want it to be be good as it should be.
I think the frustration is that this player is so good that when it exhibits a flaw the disappointment is reflective of the expectation.

Joe; buddy,
you've wandered into a minefield here.
I'd get out while you can.
We don care 'bout no steenkeeng Pieohnear:D

[Ahardt]

I thought the point of this thread was to discuss possible macroblocking in the Denon 5900, not to decide whether or not a person should purchase, keep, or return one, or to evaluate Kris' merits as a reviewer or person.

I do think it's natural, since Kris has been investigating this player as a whole, for the discussion to include other issues and/or satisfaction people have with this player.

I think that "discerning eye" (for lack of a better term) works here. If you don't continually raise the bar, you end up with nothing but mediocrity- and I think the consensus is that there's enough of that already.

If both the pros AND cons can't be openly discussed, this forum becomes nothing other than the generic, pathetic write-ups we are already plagued with in every HT related publication.

[Ahardt]

Originally posted by Milt99

I think some people need to cut Kris just a bit of slack here.

And I don't think the issue is with cutting Kris some slack.

The issue is with cutting the Denon 5900 some slack, and whether that would ultimately benefit us- the consumers.

[Kris Deering]

It is true I have not seen the artifacts using the normal AVIA disc. The artifacts I am seeing are on the Sound and Vision disc which includes test patterns from AVIA pro. I cannot reproduce the same artifacts with another disc. So what this means is:

With the AVIA patterns on the S&V disc I see artifacts in the 20 and 30 IRE patterns, but with the normal AVIA disc I see NO problems with the 20 and 30 IRE patterns.

I asked dr1394 to run the S&V disc through his encoder to see what rounding errors caused by the MPEG decoder would look like, if they match this would settle the issue as to what was causing the problem.

I have stated before that I AGREE that Denon should do something about the issues and that they need to be addressed. With this in mind I DID ADDRESS THEM IN THE SHOOTOUT and I WILL ADDRESS THEM IN THE FULL REVIEW. I am not ignoring any issues here, I am just saying that some of the complaints have been either from one person or just a few. That is not a bug in my opinion. A bug is something that can be reproduced on ALL players. If your player is doing something that most others aren't, take it back and try a new one. That is the beauty of a warranty and return policies.

I could start a whole new thread and list every DVD player that costs the same amount or more then the 5900 and start listing all the issues they have. I am in that unique position in that I have played with most of them personally, or tested them. I have had players that cost over twice the price of this one that have multiple bugs that were presented to the manufacturer but never acted upon. Again, there has never been to date, a perfect player. And I can tell you there will probably never be one. Someone will ALWAYS find something to complain about.

I still think a lot of problems many may be seeing are resulting from the display technology they are using, inadequate setup or a faulty unit. As for the remark about my comment that concerns display setup, the reason I come back to it is that 99% of the time, that IS the problem. I don't know how many times I have gotten PMs or emails from people claiming they had an issue and when I try to troubleshoot for them it ends up being a faulty setup or calibration issue.

You also have to take into account that a good percent of DVDs are mastered rather poorly, especially in terms of compression. This is going to cause artifacts by itself. The only way to ensure it is the player is to hook up another player, completely re-calibrate to the new player and then try again. You also have to make sure that the other player has the same capabilities (i.e. it isn't clipping black or white which could mask the issue, the de-interlacer isn't masking an issue, the player doesn't have any kind of display enhancements masking the problem).

I appreciate the support from the members here. It is true that most reviewers don't care to post any kind of comments on forums, mainly because it usually turns into a battle or arguement. I try to help when I can but it can be taxing and frustrating most of the time.

[Dave Vaughn]

Kris,
I, for one, am in your corner. If other's can't appreciate the effort and care you have put in to this issue, then it is their loss. Thank you for all of you help and hopefully Denon will see this through (which I think they will because of their track-record!).

Thanks again.

Dave

[dr1394]

Kris,

I couldn't find a copy of the Sound and Vision disc here at the salt mine.
However, I'll be glad to order one. Just to be sure, is this the exact disc?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005TRZA.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Ron

[Dave Vaughn]

dr1394,
That is it. If you have VE, they also show up on there (but not on AVIA).

Dave

[Martin Butler]

Ahardt: "And I don't think the issue is with cutting Kris some slack.
The issue is with cutting the Denon 5900 some slack, and whether that would ultimately benefit us- the consumers".
___________________________________________________________
My point exactly!
____________________________________________________
"Martin kris has said the macro blocking is encoded on the dvd it self": Kevinca

Kevinca, that is not the point at all!. Kris has stated there is a rounding error in the decoder that leads to the display of the MPEG artifacts. It's Denon's job to see that the error is not displayed. If other players do not show this, neither should the 5900, especially considering it is the current flagship of the Denon DVD line. I can't believe that if you were watching a movie and the "macroblocking" error was frequently noticeable that it wouldn't bother you.

_________________________________________________________

"others should not have to apologize for saying that it satisfies them":dinosnake
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dinosnake, as I stated earlier, if someone likes the 5900 warts and all, that's fine by me.
And if another company makes an equivalent player minus the MPEG rounding error and slow menus around the same price, I'd buy it. It's the knee jerk cry of "Denon bashing" that gets under my skin and spoils the quality of a thread every time.

Also, I disagree that the amount of money spent doesn't matter "one whit". Money is the symbol of energy exchange, and there is precedent for judging fairness. If this player sold for $349 the responses here would be quite different. It's not as if Denon doesn't promise much in their ads either.

________________________________________________________

I think that the DVD format has been around long enough that it shouldn't be such a difficult matter to properly implement the DVD spec. I can understand problems with SACD/DVD-A but not "macroblocking", sorry.

I think the expressions of disappointment here are to be expected. We're enthusiasts after all, and Denon had problems with the 3800 and 9000. To their credit they tried to resolve them, (more than Sony ever did), but unfortunately the old saying "once bitten, twice shy" applies here.

[Kris Deering]

If this "macro-blocking" issue does indeed turn out to be the fault of the MPEG decoder, I doubt Denon will be able to fix it. And I don't think they will pull the units or replace them. The player still produces a wonderful image that will satisfy 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% of the buyers. Plus how many MPEG decoders out there have some kind of bug 99.999999999999999999999999999999% of them. Look at our benchmark tests and see how many player have not had any issues with the MPEG decoder. Some of the earlier Panasonics didn't, and the other players based on them. And that was just 1 MPEG decoder Panasonic developed, all the others before and since we've looked at had issues. The MPEG decoder Sony, Pioneer, and Toshiba had been using since DVDs inception all had issues that had never been dealt with til this year, and only because they went with new ones! But you don't see them recalling all of their players.

Yes the Denon costs $2K, but if you add up all the 5900s Denon sells it won't probably be near the volume of Pioneer's single unit sales for players that had multiple problems. But I don't see people raving about that. In fact most the time I see the Pioneer's players praised more and more with each new unit, even though every one has exhibited multiple issues that Pioneer seemed to ignore.

Denon really tried to make the best player they could with the 2900, but it had the alternating flag problem. Funny thing is, that was the first player we reported the bug on as it was the first discovery of it that we could narrow down. The Krell DVD Standard has the same bug. If we had not figured this out, it would have passed all of our tests.

The 5900 does pass all the tests with the exception of navigation speed. Denon wanted to build this player so that it would pass all of our tests, and they came about as close as they could come. Hopefully they'll address the slow navigation issue as well. But maybe it is something that can't be fixed due to the design of the internal components, THAT ARE NOT DESIGNED BY DENON. And how in the world does one think that Denon could have caught this artifacting when it only shows up on a hand full of titles. Here we are on page 21 of this thread and I still haven't gotten any specific titles or scenes to check!

I am defending Denon because they are making more effort then ANY DVD player manufacturer out there to make a great player. Show me any other manufacturer that is making the effort Denon is making, I would love to know who they are.

[Kris Deering]

Originally posted by dr1394
Kris,

I couldn't find a copy of the Sound and Vision disc here at the salt mine.
However, I'll be glad to order one. Just to be sure, is this the exact disc?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005TRZA.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Ron

That is the disc Ron, thanks.

[Martin Butler]

Hi Kris, good to hear from you again. You stated "I am defending Denon because they are making more effort then ANY DVD player manufacturer out there to make a great player. Show me any other manufacturer that is making the effort Denon is making, I would love to know who they are."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I sincerely appreciate that Denon is trying to produce a stellar player at a reasonable price and want to support them with my hard earned cash. It's the strangeness of the issues here that are so frustrating. We're on something like the sixth or seventh generation of the DVD format, enthusiasts are salivating at the promise of the 5900, Denon has had some near misses in the past, the 5900 is finally released and it has super slow menus and a heretofore unheard of thing being called macroblocking? Bummer.

I'd really enjoy seeing Denon get the recognition they deserve for outperforming more expensive players. For the record, I am in fact, a Denon supporter and have recommended their products to many friends without hesitation.

Anyone know if the 5900 is on display in the NY area?

By the way, I too am curious as to why Pioneer's players get consistently great reviews. I've had three of their "top of the line" models over the years and was very dissatisfied. Audio was decent, but dull and I noticed many problems with the DVD pq. Sony had the chroma bug in the 9000ES I own, but it was a classic giant killer in the audio section and for most DVD's it looked better than any player in it's price range. Although I must say I didn't get a look at the Panny RP82, just the RP-91 and that had it's own issues. Also, I needed the SACD capability, so that influenced my choice at the time.

[Kris Deering]

The problem isn't really "macroblocking", that is just what it looks like. Macroblocking is a term that describes an MPEG compression problem. The problem with the Denon is a mathmatical error in its processor. This is within the MPEG decoder.

I have finally seen the problem with a regular DVD. It is plainly visible in "A Bug's Life" toward the end of the film when P.T. Flea visits the ants looking for the bug's. When he is on top of the cart giving his speal artifacts are plainly visible in the background and are quite annoying. No matter what settings I put the pic adjustments to, I could not remidy the issue. I then swaped out my player for a RP-56 I had lying around, re-calibrated the display to it and checked, not there. Nor were there any artifacts on the Sound and Vision window patterns, or VE.

Again this is the first movie I have actually seen the artifacts on. I will pass this scene on to Denon for them to check if they can so they have an idea as to what it will look like in a film.

The only complaint I had with the RP-91 was the Genesis de-interlacer which wasn't very good. Otherwise this was a pretty stellar player in the video department and would make a killer interlaced player. The MPEG decoder in the 91 was outstanding and was later used in the RP-82, XP-50, XP-30 and DVD-1600.

[Kris Deering]

Here is the firmware numbers for my player:

Make Day: 1016
System: 6542-1
DSP1 6332
DSP2 6333
ESS 6334-1
DRV 030825

[rlee]

I just received and connected my 5900 via a DVI-to-HDMI cable to my Pioneer Pro-1110HD plasma. PQ is fantastic. Same firmware numbers as Kris except the Make Day = 1015.

Kris, I looked at the same scene in A Bug's Life, and I see the macroblocking in the background. Then, I checked the scene in my Sony DVP-NS900V, and I didn't see the macroblocking. However, when I stood about 1' away from the screen, I could see the same "jumping movement" seen in the 5900's macroblocking. I can even occasionally see very faint outlines of blocks.

In normal vieiwing, it would have just looked like a little background noise (on the Sony). I only noticed the macroblocking-like behavior b/c I was 1' away and I was looking for it. Based on my quick test, the problem seems to be in the source, but the 5900 magnifies the problem through its arithmetic processing.

[meltdchse]

I use a Component Video output, I have not made any changes to the parameters of the 5900. {Looking for any advice on that front?} Seen through out the movie of Monster INC., this "macroblocking"; as this word has been described to me. I know the player is just dynamite in every other front. I have to believe that this seems to be along the lines of digital noise that should have a setting which could be reduced. I have not had my player very long and expect that it is correctable. It just seems that Denon, as a "quality-manufacturer", should be able to make a fix that can be "flashed", and I do believe sincerely the more people complain the better likely our problems will be corrected sooner, so keep complaining.

MY TWO CENTS:What I believe is happening can have some implications along the lines of something be over processed? We are talking about 12 bit and 250mhz or along those lines. Does this make any sense to anyone?

[dr1394]

Originally posted by Joe Murphy Jr
Ron

How would one go about testing the HDMI output on the Pioneer DV-59AVi? Specifically, whether or not the output was 8-bit or 10/12-bit when hooked up to a HDMI display.

There is question as to what goes on inside the player before it outputs digital video. Does it output 8-bit, regardless of the interfaces in use (DVI or HDMI), or does it internally convert to 10/12-bit when connected to an HDMI display?

There's also a question of whether or not it can output YCbCr, instead of just RGB.
I almost didn't see your question mixed in with the 5900 posts. A few points:

1) RGB is always 8 bits on DVI or HDMI. The 10 and 12 bit modes are only
available for YCbCr on HDMI.

2) MPEG-2 (and most likely any future CODEC like VC9 or H.264) is 8-bit YCbCr.
The output of the MPEG-2 decoder is always 8-bit YCbCr.

3) The YCbCr to/from RGB translation is done right inside the HDMI chips.

4) A scaling engine may have a greater bit depth on it's output. It might
be useful to send these extra bits in the 10 or 12 bit YCbCr mode. Before
a Source can do that, it must read the Sink's EDID to see if it's capable.
That requires software to query the Sink and re-configure the Source.

I'd wager that right now, all HDMI Sources are running in 8-bit RGB
mode which is compatible with all DVI and HDMI Sinks (displays) without
any negociation.

Ron

[mgoldsmith]

i just finished watching Finding Nemo (NTSC region1) for the first time thru my A11/5900-DVI_to-Sharp Z10000 (my firmware settings are also the same as Kris's except for the Make Day which is 1015).

there is quite a bit of the "macroblocking" in this movie, which surprised me as i've watched it about 5 or 6 times over the xmas break via my old DVD player and never saw these problems (then again i never saw so much detail/sharpness in previous viewings either...damn that Denon shows EVERYTHING!...and also makes images more lifelike then before and reveals a greater level of image depth)

anyway 2 sequences to check out for this macroblocking are :

- 33:20 "just keep swimming" after the light appears (the whole sequence shows black smudges around objects, etc.)

- 1hr 9min in the mouth of the whale... it's riddled with black splotches in the back of the whale's throat.

dropping the contrast and brightness makes bugger all difference as well, i thought at first it was too higher brightness, which i've found in the past shows the same sort of problem..but more greyish, not black blotches.

BTW during the "just keep swimming" sequence where the screen is completely black, it is complete smudgy, blocky, artifact, dimple free with my standard settings.

Matt.G

[Joe Murphy Jr]

Ron

Thanks for the response, especially the additional information.


Milt99

My question really wasn't about the Pioneer. It had more to do with how current and probably the near future DVD players will be dealing with digital video when it's output via HDMI.

[Earz]

Originally posted by kevinca1
Thanks for yor input snake. what i am saying is that people starting sayin things about kris being unprofessional and i dont think it is fair to say he is "unprofessional". Kris started this thread to get input on what people are seeing and now he is being called that. Martin kris has said the macro blocking is encoded on the dvd it self.

I posted info on macro blocking in this thread, only to be told that it mattered not because Kris could not duplicate it on HIS display.

I saw macro blocking and /or excess video noise in several movies in dark scenes that kris could not duplicate.

All you others that have NO video artifacts should not even be in this thread and the real DRAMA...is all the butt kissing going on here instead of getting to the heart of the matter.

There is NO WAY that even 90% of the 5900's are problem free whith regards to video problems after reading all the threads on it at different boards, and to say 99.9% of the players are not affected is a number pulled from ........... and again very unproffesional whith NO basis in fact.

I do NOT give a rats as* what you think about it either as this is not the Denon or Secrets board but rather the AVS board.

Being a professional does not give anyone the right to discount others experiences or pull #'s out of your as* as to how many units are having the video problems.

What do you not get about this?

[Martin Butler]

Thanks for the last post Kris, I knew you were being as objective as possible. As time passes more and more people are finding DVD's with the "MPEG decoding mathematical error blocks", and when they do, it's really annoying. When the thread first started I knew that if a few people had seen it, others would follow. The "only one or two people" type statements, no longer apply, and never did.
The 5900 is still first on my list, but I'm going to hold back a bit to see what Denon's response will be. I'm afraid that I'll love the quality of the 5900 and get too frustrated with slow menus. I use that feature a lot in my work.

[kevinca1]

I looked at the bugs life. Kris are you talking about the dots of the box moving? are is ther something else. That is the only thing i see.

[Digione]

Kris,

I have re-run both the full and windowed patterns again and I am unable to see anything other than what I would consider "noise'. There is nothing that I could start to call "macroblocking". The random noise is different to my 2900 but not greater. I will try to look at "Its A Bugs Life" today.

My display information was posted earlier. Any ideas?

How do I read my firmware versions?

Regards

Paul

[Kris Deering]

Originally posted by Earz
I posted info on macro blocking in this thread, only to be told that it mattered not because Kris could not duplicate it on HIS display.

I saw macro blocking and /or excess video noise in several movies in dark scenes that kris could not duplicate.

All you others that have NO video artifacts should not even be in this thread and the real DRAMA...is all the butt kissing going on here instead of getting to the heart of the matter.

There is NO WAY that even 90% of the 5900's are problem free whith regards to video problems after reading all the threads on it at different boards, and to say 99.9% of the players are not affected is a number pulled from ........... and again very unproffesional whith NO basis in fact.

I do NOT give a rats as* what you think about it either as this is not the Denon or Secrets board but rather the AVS board.

Being a professional does not give anyone the right to discount others experiences or pull #'s out of your as* as to how many units are having the video problems.

What do you not get about this?

Earz

Seems you really have a beef with what I am trying to do here, which I find odd as I am trying to help you. The point of this thread in the first place was me asking for specific examples of DVDs that presented the artifacts people were calling "macroblocking". I would then see if I could recreate it with a player that I KNEW was connected to a properly calibrated display. You see I don't know how your system is setup, so I have to take that with a grain of salt, it isn't personal, I have to do that with EVERYONE.

For your information there are only a few different MPEG decoders out there. And we have tested all of them that we know of with the exception of the new Domino chip. That is how I know that most of them have issues. You can call that unprofessional if you want, I am just telling you what we have seen based on TESTING.

As for the butt kissing, well if that is what you want to call it. I just thought it was a few members being thankful and respectful for the attention. I guess your just used to having outside help in the industry pay attention to your every whim and problem, your a lucky man.

I do NOT give a rats as* what you think about it either as this is not the Denon or Secrets board but rather the AVS board.

Talk about rude and unprofessional. Seems you are definately the minority here based on all the "butt kissing". I think a board like this would be quite interested in what someone who has a background in this would think as opposed to a fanboy who may not have any credibility at all is saying with no TESTING to back up his claims. How many times do you think a problem is reported on these boards only to find that it was a user error or setup problem and not truly a bug? But if you want to rely on reports that aren't researched and troubleshot to the nth degree, you go right ahead.

Being a professional does not give anyone the right to discount others experiences or pull #'s out of your as* as to how many units are having the video problems.

I am not discounting them, I am simply saying that a few of the gripes here are probably do to a faulty unit, WHAT DON"T YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT??? You do understand that if something cannot be duplicated on 3 DIFFERENT PLAYERS then it probably isn't a bug right? I am trying to let YOU know that it is probably a defective unit so YOU can make the decision to take it back. I have looked at all the issues I can in this thread regardless of who presented them. You keep referring to "all these movies with problems in the dark areas" but still won't site specific examples for me to check. If I checked them and they were indeed there I would post it and forward it to Denon.

It is people exactly like you that keep other reviewers from these type of boards. I find this odd as I would think that most members would want "professionals" on these boards that have the ear of the manufacturer to help them out and research their complaints.

[Kris Deering]

Originally posted by Digione
Kris,

I have re-run both the full and windowed patterns again and I am unable to see anything other than what I would consider "noise'. There is nothing that I could start to call "macroblocking". The random noise is different to my 2900 but not greater. I will try to look at "Its A Bugs Life" today.

My display information was posted earlier. Any ideas?

How do I read my firmware versions?

Regards

Paul

There is no artifacting to be seen on the normal AVIA disc, only the Sound and Vision setup disc and some of the patterns on Video Essentials. Are those the discs you used??

To read the firmware version, turn off the player using the switch on the front. Then press and hold the play button and eject button. While holding those down turn the unit back on. When you see the play and pause indicators on the front panel press the enter button on the remote. You can let go of the play and eject buttons now. The firmware numbers will appear on the front display. By pressing the enter button you can cycle through the different numbers.

[Kris Deering]

I looked at Monster's Inc. It definately shows the problem in the opening sequence with the boy in his bed. But this is a two edged sword. When I played the scene back with my RP-56 it showed a lot of the same compression noise, just to a lesser degree.

Remember the root cause of these problems is still the transfer, the MPEG decoder is just rounding out errors wrong creating a blocking effect. That is why you don't see these issues with great transfers like "The Fifth Element" and why it is so hit or miss. It is excentuating the problem more then other players will.

Thanks for the catch!

[kevinca1]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
[B]Remember the root cause of these problems is still the transfer, the MPEG decoder is just rounding out errors wrong creating a blocking effect. That is why you don't see these issues with great transfers like "The Fifth Element" and why it is so hit or miss. It is excentuating the problem more then other players will.

/B] i belive thats what i have been saying.

[Earz]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Earz

Seems you really have a beef with what I am trying to do here, which I find odd as I am trying to help you. The point of this thread in the first place was me asking for specific examples of DVDs that presented the artifacts people were calling "macroblocking". I would then see if I could recreate it with a player that I KNEW was connected to a properly calibrated display. You see I don't know how your system is setup, so I have to take that with a grain of salt, it isn't personal, I have to do that with EVERYONE.

For your information there are only a few different MPEG decoders out there. And we have tested all of them that we know of with the exception of the new Domino chip. That is how I know that most of them have issues. You can call that unprofessional if you want, I am just telling you what we have seen based on TESTING.

As for the butt kissing, well if that is what you want to call it. I just thought it was a few members being thankful and respectful for the attention. I guess your just used to having outside help in the industry pay attention to your every whim and problem, your a lucky man.



Talk about rude and unprofessional. Seems you are definately the minority here based on all the "butt kissing". I think a board like this would be quite interested in what someone who has a background in this would think as opposed to a fanboy who may not have any credibility at all is saying with no TESTING to back up his claims. How many times do you think a problem is reported on these boards only to find that it was a user error or setup problem and not truly a bug? But if you want to rely on reports that aren't researched and troubleshot to the nth degree, you go right ahead.



I am not discounting them, I am simply saying that a few of the gripes here are probably do to a faulty unit, WHAT DON"T YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT??? You do understand that if something cannot be duplicated on 3 DIFFERENT PLAYERS then it probably isn't a bug right? I am trying to let YOU know that it is probably a defective unit so YOU can make the decision to take it back. I have looked at all the issues I can in this thread regardless of who presented them. You keep referring to "all these movies with problems in the dark areas" but still won't site specific examples for me to check. If I checked them and they were indeed there I would post it and forward it to Denon.

It is people exactly like you that keep other reviewers from these type of boards. I find this odd as I would think that most members would want "professionals" on these boards that have the ear of the manufacturer to help them out and research their complaints.



I took my 5900 back before you even had word one to say about the 5900,let alone asked for info on macro blocking and in what chapters owners had found it in.... so this is why I can't give you ALL of the exact instances.

The few movies I could name were quickly discounted as not being repeatable on your display so what is the point.

I do have an interest in this player and would buy one again but you see posts on macro blocking/excess video noise, especially in dark scenes from newer owners and not just the original owners such as myself.


People who have not had any problems whith video artifacts on the Denon 5900 should not even be posting in this thread as it will only discourage others that may have had problems.
If they insist on defending the player whith no experience on the macro blocking/excess noise, the way I see it , there brown nosing and brand loyal.

I mention the transport grinding that is talked about in at least 20 posts in the original thread and you say you have never heard of it and calling it drama:confused: and I am supposed to consider this professional behavior.

Calling me a fanboy or any other slur is something you would NOT even think of doing to my face , so why do it here?
To show how proffesional you are?

I already mentioned that I would try to get another 5900 this week to make sure it was not a case of a faulty player, and if I can get one I will gladly post what chapters and movies I find that have any problems.

When you claim that 99.9% of the 5900's are not prone to these artifacts,I take exception as you have no way of knowing what is going on whith all the owners who use a 5900 whith a DLP for instance and I doubt they only represent 1/10th of a percent of owners..

I see all this defending of the 5900 as a deterent for others who have problems to speak up and in no way benificial to ressolving any potential problems.
To those that have no problems, the 5900 can speak for itself whitout your input in a potential problem thread, but when I check the thread out after weeks of waiting for it to have more info, I find a bunch of people who have had no problems, singing the praises:confused: instead of more info on whats going on.

I believe anyone who bought a 5900 has a right to discuss the good and bad whithout the imature constant retorts from posters who have had only good results and they don't need to be considered special to have that right.

[kevinca1]

Earz the problem with people only posting the negative is improtant to me. the reason is someone who may want to try a 5900 will only see negative and i dont care if you want to call it brown noseing thats your opinion. How is it fair to only have negative post and no positve?That will make people totaly turn away from the 5900 without even trying it. I say for people to try it there self and if they see it and dont like it then its your option to take it back. And most of the titles i have seen are from disney which is the worst dvd makers on the planet.

[Kris Deering]

I never said that 99.9% of the 5900s won't produce this problem, that is a mis quote. Here is what I said:

The player still produces a wonderful image that will satisfy 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% of the buyers. Plus how many MPEG decoders out there have some kind of bug 99.999999999999999999999999999999% of them.

I said the majority of the buyers of this player will enjoy it and that most MPEG decoders out there have some kind of bug. Nothing about the 5900 not having this issue. ALL the 5900s have this problem. I just think that some displays may make it worse then others, depending on the technology and setup.

People who have not had any problems whith video artifacts on the Denon 5900 should not even be posting in this thread as it will only discourage others that may have had problems.

This is crap because its posts from people who haven't had problems that allow potential buyers to know that it may in fact be a buggy player being compained about and that not all players exhibit the same flaws. It is called information.

I mention the transport grinding that is talked about in at least 20 posts in the original thread and you say you have never heard of it and calling it drama

I called it drama because you keep mentioning it as a reason not to get a player, but it is not reproducable on most players. That is why I said you, or anyone else with this issue, should take the player back and exchange it.

Calling me a fanboy or any other slur is something you would NOT even think of doing to my face , so why do it here

I am sorry if you took this the wrong way, I wasn't making reference to you specifically. I was referring to the fact that there are a lot of people on these forums who really don't know very much about home theater equipment in general. But they insist on posting things that they don't really have a lot of knowledge about as fact. I don't really know you or your level of knowledge, so I wasn't referring to you specifically, sorry if I offended you.

I see all this defending of the 5900 as a deterent for others who have problems to speak up and in no way benificial to ressolving any potential problems.


The point of this thread was for people to post their problems, and I believe I have addressed just about every one. I am not going to beat a dead horse with a problem I cannot duplicate with several players. That is why I said it is probably a bad unit and should be returned. The issues I have been able to reproduce I have commented on and forwarded to Denon. If you feel deterred, that is not my fault. I have addressed every problem raised so far. It is your fault if you don't like the answers or results I have found with them.


the 5900 can speak for itself whitout your input in a potential problem thread, but when I check the thread out after weeks of waiting for it to have more info, I find a bunch of people who have had no problems, singing the praises instead of more info on whats going on.

That's funny I thought it was me who started this thread in the first place, so that I could investigate these reported problems and see if they are truly bugs or just a bad unit, and to give a line into Denon so that hopefully they can be resolved. If you have come here after weeks and found a bunch of people with no problems, maybe that should clue you into something; most players don't have the bugs you were complaining about.

I believe anyone who bought a 5900 has a right to discuss the good and bad whithout the imature constant retorts from posters who have had only good results and they don't need to be considered special to have that right.

I agree, and maybe you should heed this as well. But to constantly report a problem that was due to a bad unit isn't helping. Reporting problems that are reproducable all of the time is important. This allows potential buyers to be aware of a problem that affects ALL players, not just a handful.

You may want to look into the new Onkyo player if you didn't like the Denon. It has most of the same capabilities it seems. It uses HDMI out instead of DVI though. They also use different DACs so I am not too sure about how the audio stacks up, but it is probably quite good as well. They are using the Silicon Image solution for de-interlacing which is quite good, but I don't know what MPEG decoder. Hopefully there are other players announced at CES that may be in the same ballpark as well. The Onkyo player is the same price though. The Pioneer is another solution at a lower cost. The de-interlacer isn't as good but I don't think most are very sensitive to the artifacts associated with it. It has a slower layer change, but its navigation is fast.

[Earz]

Originally posted by kevinca1
Earz the problem with people only posting the negative is improtant to me. the reason is someone who may want to try a 5900 will only see negative and i dont care if you want to call it brown noseing thats your opinion. How is it fair to only have negative post and no positve?That will make people totaly turn away from the 5900 without even trying it. I say for people to try it there self and if they see it and dont like it then its your option to take it back. And most of the titles i have seen are from disney which is the worst dvd makers on the planet.

Kevinca, I am reffereing to a potential problem thread such as this one only.

I have no problem whith anyones praising in any other thread...I would be there right whith you if I could and still may be.

But I would not try to praise any player to anyone who has had problems in a thread about potential problems.
There are plenty of other threads for that and if for instance you made a new thread about the 5900 being the perfect player of your dreams, you will not find me telling you that its not so because others have had unresolvable issues whith theres as this would make no sense.

The dealers are not especially fond of people returning gear but I will try another newer version of the 5900 if possible just in case it was faulty.

The video noise,macro blocking ect were not something anyone would except in my case and I am not being picky at all.

On great transfers whithout a lot of dark scenes, this player offered the best video I had ever seen, otherwise I would not even care about any artifacts or be checking this thread.

[Kris Deering]

Earz

I really don't see a fix for this problem from Denon or ESS, but they have pulled miracles before. You may want to keep an eye out for the new Onkyo and Integra Research offerings which may be in the same league and are about the same price. Hopefully they won't exhibit the same issues.

I will however post anything that Denon comes up with in terms of a fix, or if they say that they can't fix it.

[Joe Murphy Jr]

>>>It is people exactly like you that keep other reviewers from these type of
boards. I find this odd as I would think that most members would want "professionals" on these boards that have the ear of the manufacturer to help them out and research their complaints.<<<

Well said and a most excellent point.

[Digione]

Kris,

I used Video Essentials and Digital Video Essentials full and windowed fields and I see non of the "macroblocking" described in this thread, only the very slight noise. Maybe I am lucky and my VPL-VW11HT does not show the problem and your point about the display is valid.

My details:

Make Day 1015
System 6542-1
DSP1 6332
DSP2 6333
ESS 6334-1
DRV 030825

I have to agree with you regarding the overall performance of this player satisfying 99.9% of users and the fact that Denon do seem to do more than any other manufacturer to try to support/rectify real issues.

Many thanks for all your past, present and future hard-work.

Regards

Paul

[JackG]

Kris,
I had to cut through a lot of crap to get to your entry but thanks for the information on how to read a unit's firmware listings.
Here are mine:
Make Day: 924
System:6542
DSP1 6332
DSP2 6333
ESS 6334
DRV 030825
I obviously have a very early 5900 compared to other listings. My question is what does all this mean? Do the"-1" indicate upgrades that I do not have? If firmware upgrades are available, should I try to implement them? I think that I read that someone in New York had installed upgrades received from Canada. I have been on the sidelines a very long time with only an occasional whimper but it does seem that there is still a lot of posturing going on. Thank you sincerely for the helpful information from an amateur.

[Kris Deering]

I would recommend updating the firmware if it is available to you. It can't hurt.

[AV Avatar]

JackG,

I actually posted the firmware display instructions a few days ago in this thread as well and I am the member who contacted Denon Canada for the firmware updates. As your firmware is the second last available from experience, I would say you only need the DVI Activation discs from Denon to bring your player up to snuff. The "-1" identifier simply means that the a partial update has been made to the XXXX level firmware. In this case these are the firmware numbers that are displayed just before updating the DVI Activation.

Good luck.

[AV Avatar]

Kris,

Could you check the difference between the standard and M1 settings in the picture adjustments? Even with black set to 0 IRE there appears to be a difference in picture between the two options even with no changes made from the default M1 setting. I am seeing a picture that is lower in overall level but, it seems, also slightly cleaner with darker blacks. Any reason why this might be?

Thanks.

[Kris Deering]

I will look into it AV, thanks.

[Kris Deering]

MACROBLOCKING PROBLEM FIXED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bad news is, it's the Faroujda chip. Good news is, that can probably be fixed with firmware, unlike the ESS chip.

If you want to see what the player looks like with no black problems whatsoever, set the player "pic adjustment" mode to standard, and turn off the progressive output in the setup menu. EVERYTHING goes away. I tested it with Sound and Vision, VE, A Bug's Life and Monster's Inc. Blacks are perfect after that.

I will forward this on to Denon, but first I want to be sure it works the same in the Memory settings, and not just the standard setting.

AV Avatar, It appears that the STD setting may be using a different gamma scale which would lend to this. But the STD setting may be bypassing further processing as well. I'll know for sure in a minute after I check to see if the artifacts come back. The memory settings could be adjusting tweaks in the Faroudja solution, which is why I can rid some patterns of the artifacts using them.

[kevinca1]

So maybe i was right about this being the faroudja? If they used silcon i know it dont upscale but im sure they can make it upscale. There may not have been this issue at all.

[keyser]

I was seeing macroblocking with a pio 737 and infocus 5700 display from a 480i/576i and the projector uses the FLI2310, could it be that it´s the Faroudja that´s causing it?

[Kris Deering]

Okay, it works with the memory settings as well. I went into M2 and set everything to default 0 values. Then I used DVE to calibrate the image using the players settings, so that the monitor wasn't affected. In interlaced mode, none of the artifacts were present, confirming again that the progressive mode is causing it. I will send this to Jeff at Denon right away.

[Dave Vaughn]

Kris,
If you turn off the progressive out in the menu, does that disable the DVI port?

Dave

[Kris Deering]

Probably, since the DVI out uses the FLI chip. There is no way around it for DVI. Since 480P, 720P and 1080i all have to be de-interlaced. 1080i is actually 480i de-interlaced and scaled to 1080P then re-interlaced to 1080i. I just sent an email to Denon about this. I am also going to try some other FLI23xx based players and displays today to see if it is present with those. If it isn't then the chip has an implementation issue that can be resolved. If they all show it, it is hard to say what will happen. I am also going to try and have Stacey look at the new Meridian G series player he has. It uses the same chip so it would show it too.

[AV Avatar]

Thanks Kris.

I guess that also explains why, only using the interlaced outs, I have never seen the macroblocking problem.

The gamma in the M1 through M5 customizable settings are set, to my knowledge, flat across the board in the default position (all zeros) so shouldn't it be the same as STD? This, again, is only with the interlaced (no Faroudja) output. Shouldn't the output levels be the same from the ESS?

[Kris Deering]

I don't know about the gamma levels. Since they don't list them for STD, who knows.

[Martin Butler]

Good news Kris! Glad to hear you've tracked this pesky critter down. Now, I'll be anxiously awaiting word from Denon. I'd be very happy to hear that Denon can indeed offer a firmware solution, maybe they can speed the menus up while they're at it ;)

The processing in my Toshiba RPTV is lousy. It upscales 480i &p inputs to 540, so interlaced inputs wouldn't work in my set up. At least the high def signals bypass the scaler and looks great.

[Dave Vaughn]

Martin,
I am in a similar situation with my Hitachi 57SWX20B. Having the 480P signal sent ads that 1 extra D/A conversion that ads more room for error. 99% of movies look great on the DVI input...it's just that pesky 1% that pisses me off!

Dave

[Kris Deering]

I did some further research to narrow the problem down in the FLI2300. I went to the local A/V store that happens to have a Infocus 7200 and 5700. These projectors have full controls for the FLI chip. Using an interlaced player I calibrated the PJs and checked out the scenes on VE and A Bug's Life. I was able to recreate the problem on both projectors!! It is the Noise Reduction circuit turned all the way up. Stacey's Meridian didn't have the issue since they didn't turn on the NR circuit so I checked that first.

This should be nothing more then a register change in the chip and not a big deal at all.

[Dave Vaughn]

Kris,
I only have one thing to say: "WOOHOO!" Hopefully Denon can come up with a fix for it soon. So, it sounds as if they need to disable the noise reduction part of the chip (which I would assume would turn it off in the menu as well)?

Dave

[Von]

"If you turn off the progressive out in the menu, does that disable the DVI port?"

The DVI port does stays active when the progressive mode is disabled. At lease my 5900 does.

[Martin Butler]

Hey Kris, are you sure your last name isn't really Holmes, as in Sherlock? Well done!

Any clues as to why the menus are so slow?

[Dave Vaughn]

Maybe it is Holmes, as in John!

HEHE

Dave

[Kris Deering]

The Noise Reduction settings in the players menu aren't associated with the Faroudja chip. They are part of the ESS setup.

If the DVI port is still active with progressive turned off then the player is overriding the progressive switch. None of the output resolutions of the 5900 can be done without de-interlacing applied.

No clue on why menus are so slow, I wouldn't even know how to troubleshoot that. Hopefully Denon will find something, but I can live with that.

Hopefully the same firmware change that fixes the i-link will reconfigure the FLI chip as well. Then we have an all in one solution. You'll know more when I do. All of the info has been sent to Denon, but with CES just over I may not hear from them for a bit.

I am lucky though. My plasma (NEC 42VP4) has a great de-interlacer. It passes all of our de-interlacing tests that we run at Secrets, with the exception of the flag test which has only been passed by a DCDi based solution. It even passes the tests that Sony and Pioneer haven't been able to. So I will just use that instead of the FLI until I get a fix from Denon. My plasma doesn't support HDCP anyways so it is no big deal.

[AV Avatar]

Based on the speed difference I have seen when going from the oldest to the newest firmware, I believe Denon should be able to enhance the response time. Maybe we'll luck out and get a Faroudja/i-link/menu speed update soon and make everyone happy.

Thanks for all your hard work Kris.

[meltdchse]

NR seemed to make sense. I was talking to a customer of mine and he had just said the same thing about a Sony 9000ES. Reducing the DNR to certain level corrected a similar effect. I am glad that everyone was able to figure this out. When I watched Monsters INC. I was completely blown away. My impression about Disney/Pixar movies have always been very high. I just hope that this issue is correctable very soon, so that my ideas of Denon products can remain perfectly intact. Thanks to Everyone and Kris for starting the thread. Can anyone possibly furnish some settings that are useful in the PIC ADJ.

[Ahardt]

Kris-
Excellent news on the fix. Your perseverance and dedication have paid off to EVERYONE's benefit. It's Denon's turn to take the ball and run with it- you've earned your beer(s).

Now... if I can just get Cracker Jack to start including a 5900 in every box, I'll be all set ;).

[gandley]

Kris................u the man

thanks for your help, i feel happier now. soon as my PJ gets back ill do the tests.

(out of interest kris when i send a progressive signal from the A11 or my toshiba dvd player to my PJ, it dosent size the image correctly. and also adds a red tint to the whole pic and black areas are murky red.. what up with this. all works fine when i send it a interlaced signal. oh and its component im using)

[DarrenUK]

Kris,

I have been following this thread as I have recently purchased the A11 (European equivalent).

I would like to express sincere thanks for your continued research and experimentation in this and every other area you undertake. Without the dedicated interest and pursuit of excellence that you obviously show, we the consumers would be considerably less better off!

I concur that this unit is as close to perfection in it's price bracket and hopefully Denon will ice the cake with new firmwares to iron out the foibles.

Thank you once again Kris.

Darren

[gandley]

Lo darren,

[Rosano]

So Kris....are you saying that the Blocking problem "should" still be there on the DVI port...regardless if the player is set to interlaced or prgressive. It only goes away in the interlaced mode?

By the way... thanks....I just voted you for a People's Choice Award!!!!!

[Iceblade]

Kris,

Ok, it seems like you have narrowed the issue down to being related to the FLI2300 chip. I currently own a Samsung HLN617W DLP tv which USES that chip. I see a lot of macroblocking and things of that sort (also the dreaded "clay faces" issues as well. I was wondering, do you think this issue needs to be addresses on EVERY device that uses the FLI2300? Can you give us specifics on what Denon or you determine in terms of chip settings to correct the problem?

Thanks,
Jeff

[josex]

I have a scaler with the FLI2300 and that was the first thing I turned off. It doesn't only create marcroblocking it also creates ghost images when something bright is shown and then a black screen it leaves an ghost image of it. But when the noise reduction is turned off all this goes away.

[Kris Deering]

Jeff

The problem is the noise reduction circuit in the FLI2310. Some monitors and projectors allow you to turn it off and on or set its intensity level. By turning it off the problem goes away. This should be very simple to do for the techs at whatever company implemented it at. It would just be a simple register change.If you have a display that allows you to adjust it, just turn it off. I know the IF 7200 and 5700 allow for this, that is how I figured it out.

[Iceblade]

Kris,

Thanks for the info. I DO have a setting for NR (ON/OFF) in the service menu of the Sammy tv under the FLI2300 chip settings. I'll try monkeying with this and see if it makes any appreciable difference. Thanks for the info!

Regards,
Jeff

[nighthacker]

Kris,
I was wondering. If you turn off the NR circuit in the FLI2310 on the 5900 how would it effect the PQ besides clearing up the macroblocking? In other words what would be some side effects in doing this? Thanks. If their are no effects from this then why would it be built into the chip if it would cause these types of problems?

Ron

[x94blair3]

Originally posted by nighthacker
Kris,
I was wondering. If you turn off the NR circuit in the FLI2310 on the 5900 how would it effect the PQ besides clearing up the macroblocking? In other words what would be some side effects in doing this? Thanks. If their are no effects from this then why would it be built into the chip if it would cause these types of problems?

Ron

After catching up with the thread and reading the news excitedly that's what I started to wonder to. What sort of affect will this have on overall picture quality?

I echo the sentiments of others...your troubleshooting and persistence of this issue should benefit us all. Thanks for sharing your findings.

-Nick

[Kris Deering]

It shouldn't affect the picture at all. Most NR circuits don't work very well and add more problems then fix them. I have looked at the picture on some players that don't use the NR filter and they look great.

The ESS chip already has adjustments for Block noise, NR, and mosquito noise, so if you like these types of filters, that would probably be the way to go. We at Secrets generally never recommend the use of the filters for viewing, but it is all a matter of taste.

[Doug Deacon]

Kris,

I can't begin to express my admiration for your patience, perseverance and willingness to suffer public tongue lashings just for the sake of improving everyone else's PQ. Well done!

The 5900 looks more and more like the player for me. Trouble is, I want to use the DVI output for my Samsung DLP PTV. That means waiting until Denon puts out a firmware fix that turns off the NR circuit, right?

Please keep us posted as to any progress on that front. Who knows, maybe this thread can be put to bed before it reaches 100 pages!

Doug

[Martin Butler]

Can this be fixed on other brands as well that have the same chip, like Krell?

[Kris Deering]

The only Krell with this chip is probably the new Showcase DVD player. If it is anything like the DVD Standard it will be a setting in the user settings.

The DVD Standard used the FLI2210 chip and you could tweak it in. Is that the player your using Martin? If so, email me and I'll tell you some things you may like to know.

[Martin Butler]

What the heck is this ???? (Denon DVD-1X)
Scroll down a bit when you get to the following link, and you'll see a silver faceplate reference multi format Denon DVD player from 2004 CES.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=349031&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

[Dave Vaughn]

Martin,
That would be "very expensive". That is going to be in Denon's SUPER FLAGSHIP line. I hear the total package will be around $30K. Way too much skin for me!

Dave

[Joe Murphy Jr]

Stacey said that Denon's 3-piece Statement/Flagship package would be about $25k. I asked if the DVD player would be available separately, but got no reply.

Anyone wanna get in on a power buy?
:-)

[Kris Deering]

It is a pure digital transport with absolutely no analog stage whatsoever. I am interested in seeing a spec sheet from Denon soon. Hopefully I can get the whole package in to review, but my wife and day job may complain when I never leave my theater room again!!!

[st_nick]

Kris, thanks for all your hard work in finding the source of the display issues on the 5900. I await Denon's response, as this player is very interesting. Sorry to take this thread off topic here, but a question on your last post. I had read that the Bravo D1 etc (DVI players) were all-digital when using the DVI output, scaling the bits and sending them out directly over the cable? Am I being naive? Is there another thread discussing this (I haven't seen one). Should I start one?

[Kris Deering]

All DVI players do this at this point, including the D1. The difference between this and the new Denon player is, you have the option of using a analog outs as well for both audio and video, i.e. component video out, stereo out. The new Denon doesn't have any of this. It only has a digital video output and a digital audio output, no analog options.

[x94blair3]

Kris,

Obviously you've sent the information on to Denon. Should we expect you to post feedback here or?

Just want to know the best way to keep tabs on this issue. Hopefully they'll have addressed it by the time my budget gels :D

-Nick

[Kris Deering]

I'll post any info I hear from Denon here. Jeff was at CES all last week, so I don't think he'll be in his office until later this week.

[metallicafreak]

Kris,
Let me start out by echoing everones accolades. Awesome friggin job man. Second, until this is fixed, am I correct in understanding that if your display has a good de-interlacer/scaler to just feed 480i through the DVI instead of 480p/720p/1080i?
FREAK!

[Kris Deering]

As far as I know you can't feed 480i via DVI on this player. The only output resolutions it supports via DVI is 480P, 720P, and 1080i.

If it did your TV3 would work fine though.

[j2jones]

Kris, sorry to post what might be a stupid question but...

It is safe to assume that 1080i via DVI also bypasses the processing error and that's why I haven't seen any effects on my 65HDX82? This, I believe, is by far my best option given the 540p conversion issues of my Toshiba. Have I interpreted all this info right?

BTW, thanks for all your efforts. It's reassuring to find such an objective and knowledgeable "voice" on this forum.

[Kris Deering]

No, 1080i still uses the de-interlacer chip. The player de-interlaces and scales to 1080P, then it re-interlaces to 1080i due to bandwidth.

Remember that this issue is pretty minor and I think a lot of people wouldn't even see it unless they looked at certain test patterns, that may be why you haven't seen it.

[keyser]

So it wouldn´t really make a noticable difference if a dvd player would send out 1080p(you say 1080i is sent out because of bandwith, but 1080p must be possible on HDMI, maybe that will be possible with updated firmwares on HDMI players) or 1080i to a native 1080p display(if their scaling/ deinterlacing is of the same quality).

And I was also wondering if the denon scaled to other resolutions, or doesn´t it make a noticable difference if for instance it were to sent out 480p rather than 576p to a matterhorn PJ?

It does handle PAL doesn´t it?

Thanks a lot for your replies.

[Dave Vaughn]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Remember that this issue is pretty minor and I think a lot of people wouldn't even see it unless they looked at certain test patterns, that may be why you haven't seen it.

Kris,
But once you have seen it, you start to pick it up in regular material because your eye is sensitive to it. I first noticed it when setting the grayscale on my TV because of VE. Then I started to notice it in backgrounds on some movies (only about 5 so far). My wife hasn't noticed anything wrong because she isn't looking for it.

Dave