AVS Forum Archive 2 - Denon 5900 macroblocking favor

Earz

11-26-03, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by Kris Deering
I don't think this problem is reserved to dark sequences because the majority of the time I saw it in Sinbad was solid patches of colors. It was noticeable in dark areas too, but not limited to.

I have watched plenty of dark films including the new Alien releases, Blade 2, Matrix Reloaded and a few others all with absolutely no problem at all. I just think at this point that certain transfers are tripping up something in the player. I also plan on turning off the Faroudja processing and seeing if that does anything to help.

Well most of us are seeing it in dark scenes only and Aliens does have it on my dlp.

All macroblocking I have seen is in progressive mode but it seems you need a digital display to see the artifacts.

i have tried a Sony 9000,Denon 1600,Samsung 931 and a Phillips 963sa and alll but the Sony have dcdi but no macroblocking or other annoying artifacts.

Kris Deering

11-26-03, 01:30 AM

Aliens has so much compression issues already it would be tough to tell what was the disc and what was the player.

I noticed a lot of the problem in the well lit scenes in Unbreakable as well. I am not denying that it is easy to see in dark scenes, I'm just saying it isn't limited to them.

I told Denon what scenes I have seen that are very apparent with the problem and they are investigating. Again I don't think it is a problem with the Faroudja chip either.

keyser

11-26-03, 07:14 AM

From the very brief time I´ve watched my infocus 5700, I was watching lord of the rings-fotr(PAL-extended version), with my Pioneer 737 DVD player. In the scene when they are walking up the stairs in Moria I noticed somtimes that dark parts of the image had large pixels that made a kinda ticktock 1-2 motion.
I also noticed this artifact on a Toshiba progressive scan CRT TV I had, it wasn´t only on dark patches, but much more noticable on them. I also noticed it on large green areas alot. When this artifact appears it looks AWFULL.
When I get my screen and start using the 5700 I can check out if it´s the dvd player or the projector that´s causing it(and I can check if it´s the Faroudja, if it doesn´t appear when the player sends out 480p).

TrevorS

11-26-03, 11:45 AM

No doubt you guys have already allowed for this, but just in case....

In the early days of DVD, people everywhere complained about the blockiness of darker scenes with DVD, but it turned out the reason was the brightness level was turned up too high, and so information that would normally have been 'blacker than black' (not intended to be visible) was being seen. Any time you change DVD players, (or change between 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE) it's important to recheck your brightness and contrast/picture settings to make sure they are correct, before serious viewing. Avia and Video Essentials have DVD's on the market that are designed for this (and other home theater setup functions).

If this helps anyone -- great, if not -- sorry to have wasted your time -- Trevor :)

keyser

11-26-03, 11:57 AM

Which is better - tuning the settings(colour, brightness. etc) on the DVD player or the display?

Kris Deering

11-26-03, 12:15 PM

It is not a setup issue. My display is calibrated to each player I put in it before I look at anything.

It is also not a product of the de-interlacer, I check the same material last night with the Faroujda processing off and it was the same. I think it may be in the MPEG decoder but it is hard to say at this point. Denon is aware and hopefully they'll find something and work it out.

Geof

11-26-03, 12:33 PM

Kris,
The stuff I saw in ST:I did not happen when watching interlaced outputs (either S-Video or Component). Perhaps that disk has a separate issue?

There was an odd behavior noted in the long Denon 5900 thread regarding Video Essentials. There were several grey patches in Title 17 that displayed blockiness – try Chapter 30 and 50 – this only happened on some grey patches so you might want to try them all.

At the time I wrote this problem off as being different from what I saw on ST:I but it might very well be related to what you’re seeing.

Zipunow

11-26-03, 09:20 PM

Hi all,

I have problem playing Monsters Inc. It is extremely slow. It freeze in the main Menu. Anyone have this problem? Also have problem with two of my four DVD-A. I can see the counter increasing when I play the DVD-A, but I do not get sound/video.

Thanks

dr1394

11-26-03, 09:57 PM

Is this the artifact of interest?

Ron

dr1394

11-26-03, 11:04 PM

Here's a frame from Sinbad.

Ron

Geof

11-26-03, 11:37 PM

Yep!

Ahardt

11-27-03, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by dr1394
Here's a frame from Sinbad.

Ron
That's not what I was thinking of at all. I thought it was more in one large area as opposed to sort of spread all over. You got a great shot of it.

dr1394

11-27-03, 03:48 AM

The two images I posted were generated with a reference MPEG-2 decoder that
I use at my job (I'm an HD MPEG-2 encoder designer). This software decoder
(that only runs on Sun Solaris OS) has a high accuracy IDCT (double precision
floating point based on the IEEE1180 standard).

What you are seeing is what's encoded on the disc. In the Sinbad image, the
difference between the "light" and "dark" areas in the Goddess' hair is only
1 digital level. The lighter areas are digital 24 and the darker areas are
digital 23.

One thing to keep in mind is that the reference decoder does not do any post
processing. That is, there no "noise reduction" of any kind.

I wonder if there is an NR menu setting that can be turned on or adjusted to
help this issue.

Ron

keyser

11-27-03, 04:52 AM

dr1394,

If it´s in the source then I wonder why Geof didn´t notice it with a Denon 910?

I only noticed this artifact on my CRT TV in progressive scan mode(but I didn´t do any major checking).

Cain

11-27-03, 10:25 AM

I have the macroblocking on my 5900. August 2003 mfg date.

I'll be returning my unit. It really is a shame to see problems on a DVD player that costs so much money.

-- Cain

nighthacker

11-27-03, 10:34 AM

I only had this problem on 2 discs out of 50 I have watched since getting the 5900. Considering the exceptional video and equally impressive audio playback on SACD, DVD-Audio, and redbook. I will be keeping my 5900 in that their is no other unit that comes close to what it can do. I believe it's a small compromise that I'm sure denon will fix with an update anyway.

Ron

Martin419

11-27-03, 11:08 AM

Hey Cain,

Isn't that 'jumping the gun' a bit? From what dr1394 is saying, those artefacts are ALREADY on the source disc. What I think the -5900 is doing (in conjunction with your particular display), is simply showing-up detail that's already there on a poorly-authored DVD!

Other players might not show it up because they have less color-differentiation than the -5900.

I've seen exactly the same blockiness on some color transitions when manipulating JPEGs -- depending on whether I'm using my crap monitor at work, or using my good one at home. A cheap monitor just tends to mask those details.

And did you know that "soft focussed" portraits make people look more attractive because they blur over your zits? :-)

Martin419

11-27-03, 11:24 AM

Anyway Cain (and others here), why don't you just wait and hear what DenonJeff has to say. He's already relayed the info to Japan who are looking into these "claims". I've spoken with him about this. He's reading this thread.

Anyway, the Denon products are usually fully-configurable through firmware updates. I am sure it is just a contrast/calibration issue.

What I have noticed with the -5900 is that the picture is "razor sharp" compared with my previous -3800 -- which is just what I wanted. It shows-up everything -- "warts and all".

Joe Murphy Jr

11-27-03, 11:42 AM

>>>I wonder why Geof didn´t notice it with a Denon 910?<<<

Possibly a binoculars vs telescope issue?
:-)

Kris Deering

11-27-03, 12:09 PM

I have only seen the issue on the Sinbad and Unbreakable discs. This makes me think based on the images above and the test performed that the problems may be the discs. Otherwise it would be pretty consistent throughout your playback. I'll relay this info to Jeff about the Sinbad problem.

Geof

11-27-03, 01:02 PM

Ron, would you care to examine the Video Essentials disk (I noted the title and chapter numbers above) to see if this has encoding problems?

Just to clarify, I did not watch Sinbad or Unbreakables. I noted the problem on Star Trek Insurrection. The opening scenes in the SB version of Air Force One also looked rough compared to my PMDT.

Personally I would rate the PQ of the PMDT/PVP slightly better than the 5900. Since I did not see the ST:I, SB AFO, or VE problems on the PMDT I choose to return the 5900. YMMV.

sspears

11-27-03, 01:22 PM

Ron makes a good point about NR. Ron, is there any BTB in the scenes above? Can you lower the quality of the iDCT in your decoder? See if it makes the artifacts stand out more.

Kris, does the 5900 pass BTB?

Furious

11-27-03, 03:55 PM

Definitely sounds like compression/encoding related issues on discs. If you'll harken back to the early dvd reviews of Unbreakable there were numerous complaints of compression problems across a wide range range of setups. Scary to think that the 5900 is able to reproduce such things...good or bad? Hmm :)

Cain

11-27-03, 04:04 PM

I'm not angry or upset, just disappointed.

I'm seeing macroblocking on more than one disc, and if this player cost 300.00 I'd hang on to it, but I believe over the next six months there will be other players coming out with video as good as the 5900, without the extra artifacts many are seeing; and most of them will be less expensive.

I only care about video quality, nothing else.

-- Cain

Kris Deering

11-28-03, 12:46 AM

Stacey

The player passes BTB. In fact, it does it both when set for 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE. I will mess around with some of the noise reduction settings on the player. It also has individual settings for brightness, black level? (on top of the IRE setting) and gamma. For noise reduction it has a few options including mosquito and block NR. I'll mess around tonight and see what I can come up with.

But this really sounds like a problem that lies in the DVD encoding, not the player. Again the Sinbad disc was the only bad disc I had seen to this point and Ron cleared that up. Unbreakable has noticeable artifacts, but they could easily be compression issues as well. It isn't even as bad as Enigma looked on the RP-82.

Kris Deering

11-28-03, 02:12 AM

Well I am giving up on this macroblocking issue. I have looked through too many of my DVDs searching for a problem and I am convinced this is a compression issue. The reason many of you may now be noticing this problem and not before is your previous player may have been clipping black information or your setup wasn't correct. I hate to lay blame but way too many times have I seen people swear that a transfer looked terrific only to find a bunch of issues with it.

Take for example Shallow Hal or the new release of Aliens. Both of these titles had severe compression problems and many reviewers didn't even notice them. Without setting up the display myself I just can't be sure. This may sound elitist but you wouldn't believe how many times this has been the case in my experience.

The Denon puts out an extraordinary image with good DVDs, and puts out the expected image with bad ones. I have done all the benchmark tests and the only issue I have really found with it is the pixel cropping on the right side of the image is 5 pixels which is a bit excessive. Denon is aware and I wouldn't be surprised to get a fix.

I have exhausted this problem enough to reasonably conclude that it is a DVD problem and not the player. If it was indeed the player it should be repeatable regardless of the DVD put into it, as it is not a scaling issue or de-interlacing issue.

Geof

11-28-03, 09:26 AM

The VE issue certainly is not related to black level because it happens on various grey patches. It may be a disk problem but it is curious that it does not happen on other players.

Martin419

11-28-03, 09:47 AM

>> The VE issue certainly is not related to black level because it happens on various grey patches. <<

Well that could just be down to a one-level difference in the grey scale -- just as it was with the black.

>> It may be a disk problem but it is curious that it does not happen on other players.<<

Maybe other players just ain't as resolving as the -5900.

kevinca1

11-28-03, 10:27 AM

I agree with Kris. I belive it is the format which still isnt perfect. you would think after all these years they could make a disk right for once. a good example is disney seems to always make some players screw up. If hd dvd ever does get here they better do it right.

st_nick

11-28-03, 12:00 PM

I'm wondering, since people are reporting this more with the DLP, whether the issue is somehow related to the dithering factor in some DLP implementations.

Perhaps that difference of 1 in brightness for those areas is triggering them into two different dither colors that are perceptually more than 1 apart, making them visible. Perhaps other players aren't weren't so exact and it all blended into being the same thing, or the component inputs do some smoothing. Just an idea.

pnichols

11-28-03, 02:52 PM

"........the dithering factor in some DLP implementations.

Perhaps that difference of 1 in brightness for those areas is triggering them into two different dither colors that are perceptually more than 1 apart, making them visible.........."

st_nick,

Interesting point you bring up!

Are any of you CRT-based display owners seeing this macroblocking coming from a 5900?

AV Avatar

11-28-03, 03:47 PM

Has anyone seen any problems with LoTR:TTT EE with the 5900? I've seen subtitles pop up during a couple of scenes and in one case I could see the screen blanking area appear as well.

As far as Sinbad is concerned, I have seen a problem which may not be the macroblocking issue that has been discussed. In one scene a portion of the image broke up into moving coloured tiles for a moment which occupied half of Sinbad's vest. Does this sound like a related issue? It does not look like the jpegs previously posted. I went back to the same scenes and could not recreate the problem but on subsequent viewings it has happened again.

If this is a bad player I would like to return it asap.

TrevorS

11-28-03, 04:05 PM

I can usually solve the color tile problem with a good cleaning of the disc. If there are scratches present (especially the ones that follow the arc of the disc) then scratch removal can work.

Trevor :)

Kris Deering

11-28-03, 04:41 PM

I watched the Two Towers EE awhile back on this player with absolutely no problems at all.

Spizz

11-28-03, 05:27 PM

have done all the benchmark tests and the only issue I have really found with it is the pixel cropping on the right side of the image is 5 pixels which is a bit excessive. Denon is aware and I wouldn't be surprised to get a fix.

Kris what about the slow loading menu problem which I believe you may have brought up when you had the prototype and people whom now have the production 5900 are bringing up to? Is this fixable as well via firmware?

nighthacker

11-28-03, 05:36 PM

I also played LOTR:TTT EE on the 5900 with no problem at all. It very well may be the best looking DVD I have seen so far, very 3D like and razor sharp. I highly recommend it.

Ron

Kris Deering

11-28-03, 06:57 PM

The slow navigation issue will be brought up in the benchmark and I have told Denon about it. I don't know if it is fixable though, may just end up being an inconvenience, but definately not one I would make or break my decision to pick it up for.

AV Avatar

11-28-03, 10:11 PM

I have checked the discs in question thoroughly and they appear to be fine. If I play the same discs back on my old Sony 7700 there are no problems.

To add to the problem, I just tried X2 and saw some pausing toward the end of the movie (well after any layer change). My guess at this point is a possible transport problem so I will request a replacement 5900.

Any other suggestions?

st_nick

11-28-03, 10:39 PM

I'm wondering whether the brief-subtitle problem is related to how Denon implements the DVD standard. I have an 1805 that I use for discs that my D1 doesn't like, and my friend has a 900, and before reading AVS those were the only 2 players I'd ever seen that had that issue. It's not a big deal since it clears in a second or two, always in the same place even from player to player. I wonder if the player(s) are picking up a bug on the disc, or if a bug in the player.

bitkahuna

11-28-03, 11:31 PM

From all I've read here, it sure sounds like there's multiple issues interpreted as one issue. The issues could be:

- 5900 brings out details other players don't.

- 5900 more sensitive to dirty/scratched discs than other players.

- Display issues (interpolation on discrete displays or bad setup).

- Bad DVD mastering.

- Any combination of the above.

TrevorS

11-28-03, 11:38 PM

Hi, AV Avatar

I don't know what you specifically mean by "checked thoroughly and they appear to be fine", but unless your eyes happen to have the same optical characteristics as the 5900, I presume you're not counting on them to make the determination. Since the 7700 optics are not the same as the 5900 optics, I wouldn't expect that to be a definitive test either. Try cleaning the disc, it works or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you can always exchange the player. :)

AV Avatar

11-29-03, 12:21 AM

Hi TrevorS,

Just for giggles I did try cleaning the discs in question again with no improvement. This is part of my usual regime of checking problem discs which includes a visual inspection for obvious problems, verifying file access on my dvd drive in my pc, trying my "it almost always is incompatible" Sony 7700, exchanging for a new copy, trying the offending disc on a friend's player and any other voodoo I can come up with to satisfy the DVD gods. In this case I have tried all of the above to no avail. The only thing I have not tried is checking another 5900 - they are in short supply where I live.

I have seen comments in the past of some players popping up subtitles at random intervals (mostly Toshibas if I remember correctly). This however seems a little more pronounced as this is the first time I have seen the blanking interval portion at the bottom of the screen show up at the same time. It also does not explain the slight pausing and tiling as well.

I'm hoping this is just a bad sample. Unless anyone else has suggestions?

RJ28462

11-29-03, 12:54 AM

I've been monitoring this thread waiting for the dust to clear.
AV Avatar. What are the timestamps for these unexpected subtitles ? I think it may be a standard part of the movie.
Also, what's a "screen blanking area" ?

Kris Deering

11-29-03, 01:53 AM

I haven't had any occurances of picture dropout or random subtitles in a film yet. Again I have watched near 40 DVDs as I review them. The only disc I have ever seen any kind of problem with was Sinbad and that was cleared up as being a fault of the disc.

Denon is looking into the matters nonetheless and I have given them examples based on this thread.

TrevorS

11-29-03, 03:02 AM

One last thought, AV

The only time I've ever seen that pausing/tiling behavior has been when there were problems reading the disc. If the disc itself is not the problem, the next likely culprit is the optical alignment of the player. :)

LEVESQUE

11-29-03, 09:39 AM

My friends are all speaking french, so I always have to use subtitles. The subtitles did shimmer 3 times and "pop-up" for me. Going "translucide then "going up or down" in Sinbad, LOTR TTT EX and X-Men 2. I can't reproduce it tough when I go back after I see it. So it seems to be random.

Doesn't really bother me, because it last like 1 or 2 seconds...

But listening to DVD almost always with subtitles for family and friends, I did notice that problem also...

nighthacker

11-29-03, 10:10 AM

On my 5900 I never had a problem with subtitles popping up or DVD's not working or being read incorrectly.

Ron

nighthacker

11-29-03, 10:14 AM

In regards to my post above; my 5900 was manufactured in Aug 2003 and I have not updated to enable DVI since my RPTV (Tosh 57hx81) does not have DVI so their is no point to do this. The PQ through component video is also incredible very 3D like and razor sharp.

st_nick

11-29-03, 10:42 AM

I know of one definite subtitle popup scene, that I've verified to happen on multiple players. In LoTR:TFotR the extended edition, in the snowy scene where they're starting to climb the mountain (Caradhras) and Frodo drops the ring and Boromir picks it up (sorry for wordy explaination but I don't have timestamp) there is a popup.

Joe Murphy Jr

11-29-03, 02:29 PM

Oh, nooo! Not pop-ups. This damn DVD thing is getting closer and closer to the internet!
:-)

AV Avatar

11-29-03, 04:04 PM

Thanks all for the information.

RJ28462, when I refer to the screen blanking area (I may be wrong here), I mean the area below the bottom black bar of a video frame. Typically during production it is where you would see the time/frame count of a movie. In my case I see a small version of the SMPTE colour bars appear momentarily as the subtitles flash on and off for a second or two. I don't have the timestamp but the first subtitle pop up occurs when the orc says he wants to eat "a bit of the flank" of the Hobbits in LoTR:TTT EE.

LEVESQUE, it seems you are seeing similar symptoms on your 5900. Is your player also DVI enabled? My player was updated by Denon Canada before being shipped to the retailer. Just wondering if the firmware/software has any bearing on these symptoms. Also, as I am in Canada some titles are authored and encoded differently than the American releases so that might make a difference.

I have contacted my retailer who has passed the information to Denon Canada to be given to Denon Japan. Hopefully this can be worked out as I like the image this player has so much I would hate to give it up.

Does anyone know how to display the version of firmware/software on a 5900?

LEVESQUE

11-29-03, 05:06 PM

AV Avatar.

I was seeing those subtitles "popping" only when using component. Since the DVI upgrade, and since using the DVI connection, it never happened again. :confused: :confused: :confused:

AV Avatar

11-29-03, 05:40 PM

LEVESQUE,

I am using the interlaced component out at this point due to my older Sony XBR tv. I was looking at the new 60" XBR 950 LCD rear projection set as its replacement but if the player does not work out then I may reconsider that purchase.

What is the build date on your 5900? Did you update the player software yourself or was it Denon Canada?

Kris Deering

11-29-03, 09:51 PM

My player is DVI enabled from Denon directly and I haven't seen the subtitle issue your talking about. This blanking area doesn't seem like an issue with the player, it seems like you have your overscan set wrong. You are mentioning it is below the point of the normal bars, why would you display this area anyways???

Cain

11-29-03, 10:42 PM

I had a crowd over tonight to watch LOTR:TT EE, and a subtitle popped up during the scene when the Hobbits are escaping the UriKai. It stayed onscreen for about 5 minutes..

"Just cut off a bit of the flank.."

I have never seen a DVD player do that before.

-- Cain

Joe Murphy Jr

11-29-03, 11:14 PM

But in those 5 minutes, does the flank ever get cut off?

Cain

11-29-03, 11:16 PM

LOL!! No, they run into Fangorn Forest and get away!!

:D

AV Avatar

11-30-03, 01:42 AM

Kris,

The issue is not with my monitor as this is the only player I have ever seen that has displayed this type of anomaly. All of my other sources have always appeared correctly. I have not set my monitor in any way that would allow the overscan area (which would be underscan if I'm not mistaken) to appear in normal viewing. In fact, the set overscans by about 2 to 3 percent from the factory.

I have used at least four different players (with the same disc) with this monitor and have not seen this before. I fully believe it is a player-disc authoring interaction as others have seen similar errors with this title. This only occurred when the subtitles came on during the scene mentioned for a moment and then continued to play normally to the end of disc one. When the subtitles appeared the screen seemed to move up a few extra lines to display the blanking information area and then settled back to normal a second or two later.

If I rewind the movie to the same point the subtitle error will not repeat itself every time but during subsequent viewings it will randomly appear again. Over the course of the 2 disc LoTR:TTT EE I have seen subtitles appear at least twice and on one viewing, three times.

Kris Deering

11-30-03, 02:32 AM

That is pretty strange but again I have not been able to replicate the problem with my player. Hopefully it doesn't become a trend. I would talk to Denon customer support if this becomes a bother to you or have your dealer swap units.

AV Avatar

11-30-03, 02:41 AM

I'm waiting for a response from Denon and in the mean time I will be taking the dealers demo unit home on Tuesday to see if I can recreate any of these problems. I still have a feeling this may be transport related although DVD-Audio discs, SACDs and CDs have played back without incident.

Kris, have you noticed any delays in skipping forward or backward between chapters on X2 and or a brief pause at the layer change?

Kris Deering

11-30-03, 12:07 PM

Occasionally I have seen a brief pause for layer changes, but this has been about twice. That is a bit odd as it is seamless with our layer change test which uses the highest bitrate DVD change achieve so it is worst case scenario. I have seen a slight delay in navigation with both menus and skipping chapters. This will be addressed with the shootout.

AV Avatar

11-30-03, 02:56 PM

Thanks for the information Kris. I look forward to the shootout test results. Any idea how soon?

Martin Butler

12-01-03, 12:59 PM

Cain: "I had a crowd over tonight to watch LOTR:TT EE, and a subtitle popped up during the scene when the Hobbits are escaping the UriKai. It stayed onscreen for about 5 minutes..
"Just cut off a bit of the flank.."
_______________________________________________
AV Avatar: "the first subtitle pop up occurs when the orc says he wants to eat "a bit of the flank" of the Hobbits in LoTR:TTT EE. "I have used at least four different players (with the same disc) with this monitor and have not seen this before. "
________________________________________________

I anxiously awaited the 5900's release, fully expecting to buy one. Denon had quirky problems in the past with some other models, so I figured to wait a bit and see what AVS members experienced.

So far, many quirky things have happened, but I don't have time to recap every one of them by tracing the entire thread. I'm glad that Denon has a working relationship with the guys from Secrets of Home Theater (thanks Kris) and hopefully will resolve these issues sooner than later. Whenever I mention these things, a few members jump right in to defend their favorite brand (Denon) which gets a bit tedious, since I'm not bashing any company, just following the trail of information to my own conclusion. Denon has once again made a potentially great player, which can hold it's own against higher priced players, that has some worrisome flaws. Maybe not fatal, but damn troubling for those encountering them.

It's a royal pain in the butt to set up, try out, double check all the settings, figure out somethings wrong with the player, then travel back to a dealer to exchange, set it up again and cross your fingers nothing's wrong his time.

I expect the usual response of "no player is perfect", well duh.. that's not the point. When $1500 is spent for a DVD player it shouldn't have so many problems, period.

Hope they fix it all soon, I still want to get one, but I'll wait and see if these problems are resolved first.

Fangaar

12-01-03, 01:33 PM

That same subtitle in LotR:TTT pops up for me as well. FYI, I have upgraded my player firmware to activate the DVI port and am using the DVI out at 720p. This does NOT happen on my lower end Sony DVD player.

Mike

Kris Deering

12-01-03, 01:52 PM

Well I don't know what to say people. I have tried all these discs on my player with no problems. I confirmed the blocking problem on the new Meridian and it is there too confirming that it is a disc problem.

I have not been able to replicate the subtitle problem with LOTRs. I have watched the film twice no with no issue. If this is exclusive to this one disc though I hardly would worry about it. Denon is probably only concerned with widespread problems that are occuring on most the software being played on it, not just one title, but I have informed them of this thread and the issues raised.

The only issue I have had with my player is the inability to play one of my Chicago DVD-A's on it. I asked John Kotches to try the same disc on his and it played no problem. Other then that there hasn't been anything unusual about the player. I am not using the DVI out but I have confirmed that it works fine on another monitor. My player was shipped to me with the DVI activated already though.

AV Avatar

12-01-03, 02:06 PM

Kris, Fangaar and all who are seeing the subtitle error on LoTR:TTT EE,

Could you let me know whether it is the US (New Line) or Canadian (Alliance) release you are using?

One other strange thing happened last night when watching Pirates of the Caribbean. In the DTS mode I was fast forwarding through some of the credits at the end after which the digital input of my processor (SimAudio Attraction 7.1, similar to the EAD Theatermaster 8000/8800) would not lock on any digital signal from any source until I physically powered the processor off and on again. This is something else I have not experienced with any other player. I tried the same thing with my 7700 and could not duplicate the problem.

I have seen other posts of receivers not locking to various Denon players. Is this normal for Denon players?

Dave Vaughn

12-01-03, 05:23 PM

I get the macroblocking on VE, S&V Home Theater Disk, and Avia. I have only seen it in one movie, and that was Bend It Like Beckham for abour 2 seconds on the opening titles. Other that that, no problems. I have also had a very slight pause on layer changes in T3 and Raiders of the Lost Arc. Delay of less than 1 second, but noticable. The only other problem I have had is getting grayscale correct through DVI with my Hitachi 57SWX20B. I can calibrate component using Colorfacts 4.01, but DVI has been a bi*ch. Not sure if it is the DVD player or my TV's DVI input.

Dave

nighthacker

12-01-03, 06:10 PM

Does anyone know if I hook a scaler like the centerstage HD will the video look better coming out of a 5900 using component output's and if so how much better and is it worth it. My display is a Tosh 57hx81 and it does not have DVI. Right now I am very happy with the output from the 5900 very 3D like and razor sharp so I'm not sure a scaler can improve what I see. Any advice on this would be appreciated. Thanks.

Ron

Dave Vaughn

12-01-03, 07:30 PM

Nighthacker,
You may need a color analyzer in order to tweak a scaler properly. I know with the Hitachi SWX series, if you hook up a scaler, you can adjust the gamma to get rid of the blue hump in the middle IRE's. Without a scaler, you have to live with a blue hump from 35IRE through 95IRE. It isn't really noticable unless you know what to look for.

Dave

Joe Murphy Jr

12-01-03, 09:37 PM

>>>the blue hump in the middle IRE's<<<

>>>a blue hump from 35IRE through 95IRE<<<

60 IREs worth? That's one bigass hump!

Dave Vaughn

12-01-03, 11:06 PM

I will post a picture tomorrow of what it looks like.

Dave

Cain

12-01-03, 11:29 PM

It's a royal pain in the butt to set up, try out, double check all the settings, figure out somethings wrong with the player, then travel back to a dealer to exchange, set it up again and cross your fingers nothing's wrong his time.

Martin, you are 100% correct. I really like the Denon folks and DenonJeff cannot be beat but it seems as if every one of their DVD players (particularly the higher end ones) have some really annoying bug or flaw when it is released. It is almost always something different from the flaw on the last player when it was released.

They usualy get it corrected shortly before they announce their next new player, that sounds like it will be the one we all want. Then that one gets released and it too has some really annoying bugs upon release.

The DVD 5900 is no exception, unfortunately. It has macro-blocking on black and very dark grey, it has noticeable layer changes, when I was hoping they would be invisible, it pops up subtitles at odd times for no known reason, and it doesn't have the zippiest menu navigation.

It does output a terrific picture, and I believe they will get all the bugs worked out in a couple of months.

I would recommend anyone who wants this player to hold off a few months (and also see what else is on the horizon by then!!)..

-- Cain

LEVESQUE

12-02-03, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by Cain
The DVD 5900 is no exception, unfortunately. It has macro-blocking on black and very dark grey, it has noticeable layer changes, when I was hoping they would be invisible, it pops up subtitles at odd times for no known reason, and it doesn't have the zippiest menu navigation.

IMOH, those are all minor problems. No "fatal" flaws like the skipping and freezing with the 3800.

Did you read the thread? Did you read what Kris Deering was just saying about the macro-blocking?. The macro-blocking is present on the new Meridian player also! Can the 5900 be guilty of beeing revealing? The macro-blocking is cause by disk problems. The 5900 only show us those problems.

BTW, there is very few (you can count them on your hand) players with a seemless layer change. And maybe less then that! So what. 1/2 second? On 1 or 2 really difficult layer changes, on 1 or 2 titles? Big deal. Some players that cost alot more are having more problems then this with layer changes.

Subtitles pop-up. Does it really make any DVD viewing intolerable? The skipping and freezing of the 3800 was a real show stopper. But one sentence popping-up in LOTR? Didn't stop my family from viewing that film at all, and getting only positive comments on the good picture quality from friends.

Wow. Some people are more demanding then other.

Those are only MINOR problems. I remember to well those freezing and skipping with my 3800. Those were REAL major problems.

sspears

12-02-03, 12:16 AM

I reprod the same macroblocking tonight on my PMDT using Sinbad. It also repros on Bravo D1, Marantz 8400, Sony 7000, RP82, and Arcam FMJ27. (What I had lying around.) The Sinbad is a disc issue. The DVE patterns look the same on all the players too, which was a royal pain since disc navigation is not simple. :)

LEVESQUE

12-02-03, 12:35 AM

So sspears.

Can we say that the macro-blocking "issue" is not a player problem, but a disk problem then?

pnichols

12-02-03, 12:36 AM

LEVESQUE,

;) As you know, >97% of 3800's did not skip/freeze. I've never seen a 3800 layer change. I've never seen a clandestine 3800 subtitle. 3800 dark areas are smooth as silk. (Ooops ..... the 3800 did have [eliminatable] Y/C Delay, though.)

Had I brought home a $2000 5900 with the issues I'm reading about there would have been a huge "heated discussion" between the spouse and myself!

LEVESQUE

12-02-03, 12:41 AM

pnichols.

My 5900 is doing the same job with layer changes then my 3800. No difference at all. Same performance. Seemless. I've never seen a 5900 layer change.

I didn't see any macro-blocking with my 5900. Blacks areas are smooth as silk. Even "silkier" then with my 3800. Probably that >97% of 5900 owners are not seeing any macro-blocking.

So your argumentation can be utilize exactly the other way around, has you can see.

My 3800 was freezing and skipping every 2 or 3 films. That was major. AND my wife was REALLY annoyed by those skipping when she was listening to a film (it did end-up with some "heated discussion" between the spouse and myself!). :D

Joe Murphy Jr

12-02-03, 01:09 AM

I think it would be a good idea when reporting no problems, minor problems or major problems with a player, the display being used and any other associated equipment (scaler, processor, etc) should be mentioned, along with the type of output (DVI, component, S-video, etc). These items may be key as to why some people have no complaints and others have several.

RJ28462

12-02-03, 01:10 AM

I watched TTT again last night on my RP82 to re-investigate the strange subtitles that surprised me the first time. I believe they're a normal part of the movie. The creators used subtitles when the dialog is non-english, chaps 13, 25, 30. It's not totally obvious that the language isn't English. I think this is what you're seeing. I have the US Widescreen version.

dr1394

12-02-03, 01:55 AM

I wouldn't consider "Sinbad" to be poorly encoded. To me, it's just the way
MPEG-2 works with DCT's, motion estimation and 8-bit YCbCr. The lines in the
Goddess' hair require some high frequency coefficients, which upsets the DC
level of the DCT. I've attached the I-frame that is 3 frames before the
previous picture I posted. Note that all of the slightly darker areas are
adjacent to the lines in her hair.

Ron

dr1394

12-02-03, 02:00 AM

Then, the motion vectors in the P-frame that I posted are a bit chaotic in
the area of the Goddess' hair. This tends to spread out the darker blocks
coded in the I-frame predictor. Note: field predictions are the macroblocks
that are darker blue with an upper and lower vector. Black macroblocks
are intra coded.

Ron

dr1394

12-02-03, 02:04 AM

Here's that P-frame again in full-size, so that you can match the motion
vectors to the image.

Ron

dr1394

12-02-03, 02:14 AM

Finally, the Sinbad bitstream looks to be encoded by the usual Sony MPEG-2
encoder (the give-away that it's the Sony encoder is the field motion
vectors in a frame with progressive_frame = 1). Most folks consider the
Sony encoder to be a pretty good (like on "Matrix Reloaded"), so IMHO,
it's unlikely that any other encoder could have done a better job.

Ron

Kris Deering

12-02-03, 02:44 AM

Thank you for all the inputs everyone. I am chocking up the "macroblocking" to the software as I was able to recreate the problem using several players all of different brands with the exact same effect. I have not had any subtitle problem at all. As for the layer change, I have seen it about 3 times now but the player still passes our test flawlessly. Personally I don't think a half second layer change occasionally is anything to get in a hoot about as that is faster then 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the players out there.

We can bat at this all day back and forth but I trust my research and Stacey's a bit more at this point. Also, thanks a bunch to Ron for the information on the Sinbad disc, I only wish I could do those tests here on my own.

Fangaar

12-02-03, 03:20 AM

First off I never said that the caption appearing during LotR:TTT was any sort of major problem. I have the US version of the DVD, btw.

Tonight I played that same disk through and the caption mentioned did not pop up this time - so it appears to be inconsistent.

BTW, it has nothing to do with the actual sub-titles in the movie. I am well aware of when english is being spoken and when it's not.

The sub title that popped up on me is during the scene with the orcs outside Fanghorn forest and refers to "a flank" of one of the hobbits.

I do have high expectations for the player due to the price tag I paid. This is not a $49 DVD player. I don't expect sloppy little things like random CC text popping up when I watch DVDs for this price tag, but if that was the only negative thing about the player then I am certain I'd be a satisfied consumer.

However, the fact is that I do consider the player has having one major flaw, and that has already been discussed to death: 4:3 DVDs need to be sent out in 4:3 on the DVI port in 720p. The auto stretch is a real oversight, and if anything about this player leaves me feeling unsatisfied by the expense this is it, not the CC text.

If Denon is getting feedback I certainly hope they will upgrade the firmware to add this feature.

I tried putting the player in 480p mode, but then it showed my 16:9 DVDs with black bars on the side just like 4:3, so this was no solution for me. I found no combination of TV/DVD settings that will allow me to watch 4:3 and 16:9 content in their intended aspect ratio without having to change the DVD from 480p to 720p as appropriate.

So I eagerly read this thread and place my hope in the fact that Denon seems to be interested in hearing from their consumers, which is more than I can say for other component manufacturers. If they listen to the feedback and make changes I will be impressed and certainly remain loyal to the brand in the future.

Mike

nighthacker

12-02-03, 09:43 AM

I tried both Lord of the rings: FOTR and TTT both in EE and I have not been able to get the subtitles to pop up. The PQ on both is just breathtaking. Last night I watched the mines of moria chapter and I was just glued to the picture. The blacks were so deep and detailed it just blew me away. I have yet to see a better player that can do so much for the price I paid, which by the way was $1400.00. My setup is a 5900 going into a 5803 and then into a Tosh 57hx81 that has been ISF'd. You gotta love this stuff.

Ron

On a side note: Can anyone here stand going to a movie theater anymore. I find that I have to walk out most of the time because the PQ is so bad. I have a feeling that this is a side effect of home theater.

Dave Vaughn

12-02-03, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by nighthacker
IOn a side note: Can anyone here stand going to a movie theater anymore. I find that I have to walk out most of the time because the PQ is so bad. I have a feeling that this is a side effect of home theater.

I couldn't agree with you more. Besides the crummy picture on their projector, the sound is cranked up too loud (in the wrong places) and their popcorn is too damn expensive!

Dave

Darin

12-02-03, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by Kris Deering
I am currently in the midst of the benchmark tests and have had a 5900 in my possesion for a few weeks now. ... I also tried the scenes from the Sinbad DVD on the Pioneer 563 and didn't notice any of the same problems.
OT: are you going to be posting any tests of the 563, or any of the newer Pioneers?

sspears

12-02-03, 11:19 AM

Why do you have to send 4x3 out over DVI as 4x3? Why not use the aspect ratio control built into the player and put bars on the side?

Kris Deering

12-02-03, 12:35 PM

Darin,

Yes

Fangaar

12-02-03, 01:01 PM

sspears: it doesnt work with DVI output.

I want to watch my material in OAR across the board which I cannot do via DVI without changing the DVI port output from 480p (for 4:3) to 720p (16:9), this is the problem.

If I am doing something wrong and somebody knows how to do what I want I'd love to be corrected.

Mike

Joe Murphy Jr

12-02-03, 02:22 PM

Are you sure it's the DVD5900 not allowing you to do this? Is there a possibility that the display is doing the stretching?

I don't know if that's what is happening. I just thought I'd throw it out there, just in case.

Ahardt

12-02-03, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by Kris Deering
As for the layer change, I have seen it about 3 times now but the player still passes our test flawlessly.
I'm just curious, not trying to be obtuse- but, how does it pass the test "flawlessly" if you can see layer changes on some discs? I know the "excellent" standard is less than 1 second, but the 1/2 second layer change in the 5900 is not "flawlessly" is it? It is definitely better than most players, but "flawlessly"? Not to nitpick your word choice, but that is pretty strong wording.

I feel like there is some sort of Denon favorable bias going on here (not saying that's the case- just the feeling I get from all I've read). Denon makes great players, no doubt about it, but problems shouldn't be minimized just because they'll HOPEFULLY be remedied in the near future, should they? Or because people are discussing the problems with Denon to try to get things worked out? Or because Denon is receptive to feedback? For someone purchasing a player TODAY, these can be very real issues- especially for the cost of the 5900. Just because Denon has a great reputation and strives to meet higher standards than most manufacturers doesn't mean that issues should be relegated to being "non-issues" or "minor" just because they're not as "major" as they COULD possibly be. This is an expensive player, so shouldn't it be held to a higher standard than less expensive ones, or at least the same level of standard? Or is the PQ so amazing that these issues truly become non-issues?

My concern is that if some of these problems were seen in a different brand of player, the player would be dismissed and the flaws labeled as "flaws" in a factual manner, but with the Denon, they are relatively "minor" and "fixable". I think it's ok to say that DESPITE these issues, in the grand scheme of things they aren't a big deal because of the overall PQ. On the other hand, to say that random CC text popping up (which would piss me off royally- even if it only happened occasionally), visible layer changes, etc, do not affect PQ is not completely factual (I would consider interruptions in the film as compromising the PQ). I can't imagine that if CC text popped up randomly on some other player it would be dismissed this easily. I think I must be missing something here.

sspears

12-02-03, 04:00 PM

The test Kris uses for the layer change is a pretty hard test. It is done at 9.n Mbps and is an RSDL change. In theory it is really is as bad as it should ever be. It is possible to author a disc where the layer change is not RSDL and would be even slower. These are pretty uncommon, but not un heard of. Perhaps the discs that Kris has seen a layer change on is such a disc.

It is also possible that there are extra op codes on those discs telling the player to perform more flushing. Not really sure. It would be interesting to back up on one of the titles and see if the time is consistent. Then try it on other players using that and the test disc Kris uses to see if they are relative.

ie 0 seconds on WHQL, 1 second on foo for player X.
ie 1 second on WHQL, 2 seconds on foo for player y.

Kris Deering

12-02-03, 04:36 PM

Ahardt

I know that this thread can be taken as favortism for Denon but it really isn't. What I am trying to convey is people seem to be going to ridiculous lengths here for minor problems.

I rate every player the same in the benchmark as did Stacey and Don. The same tests and nothing is fared because of the manufacturer. All the issues I have seen will be reported on.

One thing that has been continually brought up here is the price of the Denon, as if that means something in our shootout. Most of the "expensive" players we have tested have done much worse then this player, so what standard are those held to.

In fact the only high priced player that I recall ever doing very well in our benchmark tests is the Camelot Roundtable back in the first shootout. What does that tell you.

I can guarentee that any issue with the Denon that we have found WILL be cited on the benchmark report. I just wanted the people that were concerned to know that Denon has taken a intense interest in our findings to try and resolve any issues we've found. Not many companies do this, but that doesn't give them more preference in the testing.

Joe Murphy Jr

12-02-03, 05:54 PM

>>>I would consider interruptions in the film as compromising the PQ<<<

Two words: laserdisc player.
:-)

On the whole, I agree with most of what you are saying (except for the Denon bias). When a major company comes out with a new "statement player" (sort of), it should at least equal previous players and should at least raise the bar in a few categories.

As Stacey points out, how the DVD5900 compares to other players when playing the test discs that Secrets uses should be the real test of handling the complicated stuff. However, this doesn't mean that there won't be other discs out there now, or in the future, that give even the best DVD players a twitch or two. How a disc is authored and what type of material is being encoded plays a large part in how the players handle the material.

That doesn't mean the DVD5900 should be given a thumbs-up if it can't pass certain tests easily or doesn't pass a test that some of the (presumed) lesser players do. Maybe when the new shootout tests/product reviews are posted these issues will be more clear as to whether the new Denon really is the one to get or one to consider.

Of course, some people have already made their decisions.

Ahardt

12-02-03, 06:18 PM

Kris-
I really appreciate you taking seriously and then addressing my concerns.

I agree that the Denon price tag shouldn't be relevant in a shootout, and I know that in past shootouts, price hasn't been at all relevant (excepting to point out that a lower priced player did much better than many higher priced ones). However, from a consumer viewpoint, cost is almost always a factor in choosing a player, that's probably why the Denon price tag is so often commented upon. A consumer expects a player that is higher priced to perform better. Consumers know that's not always (hardly ever) the case, but the consumer nonetheless has that expectation. If it costs more, the consumer expects it to perform better (logically, subconsciously, whatever) even though past shootout results have indicated that price is not necessarily an indicator of quality. But, there is such a large price difference between a $300 player and a $1200 (or more) player, that one can't help but be more critical of the more expensive player from a consumer standpoint. I do understand that from a scientific angle, price means nothing, and this is definitely how it should be. Just wanted to give you a possible explanation for all the "Denon pricetag" comments.

I feel very comforted to know that the 5900 will be reviewed with as critical an eye as any other player reviewed. I rely much on the shootout results, not so much to choose a particular player, but more to know the current dvd player "standard" that is out there- what players are capable of, who has raised the bar, who has lowered their standards, what "poison" I'm going to get in any given player, as well as what to look for in a player in general. I didn't want to think that the unbiased nature of the Shootouts was being "compromised" like everything else in this world (not due to anything sinister- but due to the hopes and expectations of finding that "perfect player" and finally getting a company that gives a whit about producing a good product). I realize these are DVD players we're talking about here, not life and death, but I've got to take my idealism where I can get it- and movies are one of the main ways I get it, and DVD players are the medium to do that. Now, how freakin' cheesy is THAT? But....true.

Kris Deering

12-02-03, 06:38 PM

The shootout isn't really meant to tell you which player is the best to buy in a given price range. As I mentioned before many of the higher priced players don't score as well as some of the cheaper ones. But that doesn't mean that they aren't a "better" player.

One has to look farther then the benchmark for that. The benchmark is only about video performance, which only accounts for so much of what a player is capable of.

Take for example the 5900. Many are comparing its performance to the 2900 because it has a seamless layer change. But the 5900 doesn't have the CUE problem, has a better de-interlacing solution overall (film & video), has a much better build, adds Denon link and 1394 outputs for hi rez, sports two DSPs for audio, has BNC component outputs, and has scalable video via DVI.

So how can you compare the two? Think about what the RP-82 offered in comparison?? Or the Krell DVD Standard at $8K?!?

This is why we don't really talk about price in the shootout because this only covers one part of the player, and not the whole picture. We reserve that to our full length individual reviews.

In my opinion most of the true enthuasists on these boards should stop pointing the fingers so much at the DVD player manufacturers because of small inconvienences and start pointing the finger at the DVD studios who have passed off SO many half assed transfers only to turn around and sell you another half assed one down the line claiming to be improved. Most of the issues these players look for are due to poor DVD encoding and the ability of the player to fix it. There is the true bad guy.

RKW2

12-02-03, 06:56 PM

Can't wait for this review. Is it possible to confirm that the signal from the DVI out is all digital and doesn't get converted to analog in the 5900 at some point. That worry is about the only thing holding me back from upgrading at this point. Thanks.

Ahardt

12-02-03, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Kris Deering
... and start pointing the finger at the DVD studios who have passed off SO many half assed transfers only to turn around and sell you another half assed one down the line claiming to be improved. Most of the issues these players look for are due to poor DVD encoding and the ability of the player to fix it. There is the true bad guy.
No doubt. Cheap, cheap, cheap discs, then they charge you out the azz for them and then do it again. And we keep letting them do it. The same as when CDs came out and they said the price would drop to the same price as tapes and LPs, which we all know, NEVER happened. In fact, they only got MORE expensive.

If the DVD player and disc producers both did their part (and the studios made more decent movies in general) we'd be set for life.

I sometimes believe that most of these manufacturers produce sub-par products because they know we will always be around to buy the next better one and they'll make more bones. Make a perfect player, and we'll never buy another one. Paranoid and cynical? Probably. I also think we never landed on the moon and that Oswald didn't act alone ;).

kevinca1

12-02-03, 07:12 PM

Amen Kris. I have said that many times and got riddiculed for it. Many people sit and the first thing they do is blame th eplayers when its the pos disk that the stuidos put out. How can you blame a player when the studio dosent make the disk right, You can buy one dvd and it will blow you away then you buy another and it is as good as a vhs tape. For example The Ref that is one bad looking dvd, So if they cant produce all dvds the same who can you expect the players to be perfect.

Gadgetzilla

12-02-03, 08:04 PM

Dave Vaughn wrote:
I will post a picture tomorrow of what it looks like.

Hi Dave,

Just wondering if you had a chance to get that picture.

Martin Butler

12-02-03, 08:37 PM

Kris, I do get what your saying, Kevinca as well, but it's things like someone having trouble with a disc and then it plays perfectly well on four other DVD players, that concerns me.

Any news if Denon plans to make a silver faceplate available as they did for the 2900?

Dave Vaughn

12-02-03, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by Gadgetzilla
Dave Vaughn wrote:

Hi Dave,

Just wondering if you had a chance to get that picture.

My Laptop is booting up now. I will post them soon.

Dave

Dave Vaughn

12-02-03, 11:46 PM

Here is the Component RGB

Dave Vaughn

12-02-03, 11:47 PM

DVI RGB...Notice the extra bump in blue. This is caused by the DVI.

Dave Vaughn

12-02-03, 11:48 PM

Here is the temperature of the Component

Dave Vaughn

12-02-03, 11:50 PM

Notice the higher temperature in middle IRE's. This is caused by the excess of blue. My Hitachi already has excess blue here and doesn't need any help :-) . I still have Color Facts till the 12th and plan on working on it more (if the wife doesn't threaten to throw me out of the house!).

Dave

Kris Deering

12-03-03, 01:06 AM

Dave

Very interesting. Is there a chance that this hump can be dialed in via the players gamma settings? Since you have 5 memories to work with I imagine you could dial in the settings for component, DVI 480P, 720P and 1080i. Have you tried this at all?

The only downfall I have this time around with the benchmark is the ability to test frequency response on the video side as I am without a O-Scope. The one we were previously using is no longer available.

Dave Vaughn

12-03-03, 01:15 AM

Kris,
I haven't really had a chance to play with the gamma settings at all. That is the next thing I am going to do. My hope was to be able to eliminate the blue hump from my Hitachi. My dismay came when the hump got larger with the DVI. I was hoping to eliminate all of the D/A conversions and upscaling from the Hitachi by just feeding it a 1080i signal and then the Hitachi just having to display that from the DVI with only 1 D/A conversion. Right now it has to go from 480i to 480p to 540p (or 1080i). The scaler in the Hitachi is OK, but I presume the Hitachi is much better.

Dave

Dave Vaughn

12-03-03, 01:20 AM

Kris,
Have you played with the Gamma at all on the 5900? I really don't know what G0-G9 does to the picutre. Does the G0 correspond to the dark part of the picture (say 20 IRE) and the G9 correspond to 100 IRE? The manual isn't very helpful here (no surprise on that one!).

Dave

Kris Deering

12-03-03, 09:24 AM

I haven't and I'm not really sure what each one correlates to. If I had a scope it would be easy to tell but again I don't.

softengr

12-03-03, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by Martin419
Anyway Cain (and others here), why don't you just wait and hear what DenonJeff has to say. He's already relayed the info to Japan who are looking into these "claims". I've spoken with him about this. He's reading this thread.

Anyway, the Denon products are usually fully-configurable through firmware updates. I am sure it is just a contrast/calibration issue.

What I have noticed with the -5900 is that the picture is "razor sharp" compared with my previous -3800 -- which is just what I wanted. It shows-up everything -- "warts and all".

No one here has the right to tell someone else how to spend their money. Especially large amounts - $2,000!

New technology is very risky and prone to errors and bugs. Manufacture support is generally terrible. Most manufactures even contract out there warranty support. Each purchaser needs to make a quick determination whether on not to keep any product they buy.

Would any sane person rely "what some person said to rely on some other guy on the Internet"? Wow! Only if Denon or the dealer promised in writing that the unit could be returned with no questions asked and for a prompt refund would I ever consider it. The least risk is to return it and let you guys here worry about the problems.

Within six months of debuting, Denon's last flagship model (the 2900) was available at ecost.com for $529.00 (47% discount). The high-end magazines The Absolute Sound and Stereophile Guide especially rated its SACD,DVD audio, CD sound quality as poor.

Now who do you think made the right decision?

Glashub

12-03-03, 03:36 PM

Ah, but the 5900 SACD, DVD Audio, and CD quality is not poor. That's the point, right? A universal box for $1400-1600? An all in one box usually does not do it all in excellent fashion. What is the saying "a jack of all trades and a master of none"? I think the 5900 is a very good "jack of all trades" box. The Porsche Cayenne is the 5900 of SUV's and for $50,000 - $80,000 it's a "jack of all trades and a master of none" vehicle. Maybe, just maybe we expect too much from manufacturers and technology right now. Did any one who bought the Cayenne really think it would handle like a sports car and go off road like a Jeep? I hope not. Did anyone really think this player would be the "best of the best" in all areas and flaw free? Again, I hope not.

vpravosu

12-03-03, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by softengr
The high-end magazines The Absolute Sound and Stereophile Guide especially rated its SACD,DVD audio, CD sound quality as poor.

Now who do you think made the right decision?

But there were a lot of professional reviews of 2900 and MOST of them actually rated SACD and DVD audio sound as excellent. Picking the only couple of reviews that say otherwise does not mean that 2900 has poor sound.

softengr

12-03-03, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by vpravosu
But there were a lot of professional reviews of 2900 and MOST of them actually rated SACD and DVD audio sound as excellent. Picking the only couple of reviews that say otherwise does not mean that 2900 has poor sound.

You don't realize this but you have just learned who's judgment to trust and who not to trust. This will save you a lot of money and add musical enjoyment if you let it.

I bought the 2900 myself and kept it for only one evening. 5900 audio is the same design as the 2900. In a word: bright!

Milt99

12-04-03, 01:44 AM

With all due respect, I have listened to CD, HDCD, DVD-A, DD-EX and DTS-ES
on my, as yet, uncalibrated 5900 and it definitely is not, to borrow the most
overused, misused and generic non-description, "bright".
And what does, "5900 audio is the same design as the 2900" mean, exactly?

Martin419

12-04-03, 04:59 AM

softengr,

I'm not telling you how to spend your money. I'm just saying that you are jumping to the wrong conclusions. There is NO "macroblocking" bug on the 5900. That bug is on the disc, not in the player.
You seem to be assuming the player must be guilty before proven innocent.

I assume the player is innocent until proven guilty. And all the indications are that the player is innocent. According to your 'logic', you should never buy any player at all then.

Kris Deering

12-04-03, 10:36 AM

I would have to say that the 5900 shines with audio in all respects. Very detailed. I definately wouldn't call it bright. There are a lot of variables in ones system that may draw them to that conclusion including the music recording itself.

Ken Stokes

12-04-03, 11:41 AM

I've been playing with 5900 this morning and think the audio borders on excellent. The SACD isn't quite the XA777ES but it isn't far off. If this unit sounds bright I'd really have to question the system.

Ken

jon_k

12-04-03, 11:51 AM

ken, how many hours do u have on yours?

vpravosu

12-04-03, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by softengr
You don't realize this but you have just learned who's judgment to trust and who not to trust. This will save you a lot of money and add musical enjoyment if you let it.

I bought the 2900 myself and kept it for only one evening. 5900 audio is the same design as the 2900. In a word: bright!

I agree. I have just learned that I should not trust these two sources that you mentioned because I disagree with their opinion based on my own experience. BTW I do own 5900 and I think it sounds excellent on all formats and I would never use a word "bright" to describe it (unless you use at as a synonym of superb . :) )

nighthacker

12-04-03, 12:11 PM

I have to agree about the audio. I have the 5900 and in my system and ears it sounds very warm and detailed with a very open sound-stage. By far the best DVD player that I've heard. This of course is my opinion and being that everyone's ears are different I can only speak for myself. I am a musician so I care to think that I have well tuned ears.

Ron

Ken Stokes

12-04-03, 12:35 PM

Jon.
I hooked the 5900 up last night and the calibrator left a few hours ago. So I'd say in total I have all of three hours on the machine:)

So far I'm pretty impressed.
Ken

jon_k

12-04-03, 12:53 PM

i think most ppl recomended 200 hours of break in. i didn't try to compare before and after, but it was definitely somewhere after 100 to 150 hours + that i felt that i noticed some differences. it could be all psychological, but it was definitely after when i sat down and was extremely impressed with all the audio aspects.
dvda and sacd i expected alot already, but redbook really blew me away on this machine. my speakers r pretty revealing though so my experience may be different than others.

Milt99

12-04-03, 01:46 PM

Softy,
you need a refresher on the SGHT Denon 2900 review.
Yes the reviewer did use the term bright describing a specific
quality of the 2900.
In reproducing cymbals, the 2900 sounded "bright and clean",
sounds like postive adjectives to me.
Nowhere in the article was the term "poor" used to describe
anything regarding the 2900.

Kris Deering

12-04-03, 04:06 PM

I have read The Absolute Sounds review of the 2900 and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't set it up correctly. They comment on the higher end sounding pretty good, but the low end lacking. This could be a function of the setup of channel levels in the SACD and DVD-A setup. But they may just be pickier.

Ahardt

12-04-03, 04:28 PM

GUYS-

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

I have no qualms about stating that softengr is a total weenie who gets his kicks out of making contrary statements and getting everybody all stirred up. Then he splits and does it somewhere else. He does it all the time in the RPTV forum.

He has issues.

softengr

12-04-03, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by Ahardt
GUYS-

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

I have no qualms about stating that softengr is a total weenie who gets his kicks out of making contrary statements and getting everybody all stirred up. Then he splits and does it somewhere else. He does it all the time in the RPTV forum.

He has issues.

I am an engineer with 25 years of experience in audio and video. I try to advance the art.

It is a fact that the Denon selected Analog Devices op-amps are well known for having a clean but cold bright sound quality. I've modified many DVD player to "improve their sound" with AD op-amps but never succeeded.

I am sharing my experience to cause potential Denon owners to critically think by giving then the facts. I'll bet that the 5900 will be available for $1200 with in six months.

Do you think that I did not know the existing owners would react so emotionally? Most people do exactly that. Most had some critical reasoning in their response and I admire that.

It is difficult to discuss the cold hard naked truth. But it can make for entertaining reading too. This forum is growing!

I did not post until someone starting pressuring others as how to spend their money. This is a consequence of an un-moderated News Group/forum.

Ahardt, your post showed anger and contributed nothing concerning the Denon 5900. Did you have a bad day today? Please stay on topic and discuss the facts. Thank you!

kevinca1

12-04-03, 08:39 PM

Hey softenger or should i call you the god of audio. What is your problem? you dont like denon fine dont buy it. Its not your money people are spending so you have no right to come to a thread that you have no purpose but to slam denon. And who in the world made you the expert of audio? I bet you would think comusmer reports was a great mag also.

Mantasack

12-04-03, 10:00 PM

The 5900 has JRC 2068D op amps in it stock. Mine now has AD8620s in it though.

There are some interesting things I see looking at the schematics of the audio section. I'll wait till I've compiled all my notes to post my findings.

John

ptaaty

12-05-03, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by kevinca1
Hey softenger or should i call you the god of audio. What is your problem? you dont like denon fine dont buy it. Its not your money people are spending so you have no right to come to a thread that you have no purpose but to slam denon. And who in the world made you the expert of audio? I bet you would think comusmer reports was a great mag also.

LOL at what this poor thread has become....

Come on now Kevinca1....CR is an ok mag, well for appliances and car reliability at least :)

I find it hard to believe softengr as he doesn't even seem to know there are some differences in the audio processing with the 2900 and 5900, same DACs, yeah, same opamps, maybe, but there is much more to it than that. Also, I have heard both and they both sound very good for hi rez and redbook.

Ah well, such is the digression of so many useful threads :(

Ahardt

12-05-03, 12:48 AM

Originally posted by ptaaty
Ah well, such is the digression of so many useful threads :(
This is what happens to most of the threads softengr "participates" in.

bambam

12-05-03, 09:57 AM

I will also put in a plug on the 5900's sound:

In my system - Lexicon MC-12, Parasound Amps, M&K Speakers all around - the 5900 sounds phenominal on DVD movies, DVD-Audio, SACD, and redbook CD. In fact, the best sounding cd/dvd player I've yet had in my system. No bright in any way.

I'm very satisfied!

Earz

12-09-03, 06:48 PM

Another movie I remembered seeing macro blocking in was Pitch Black as ironic as that sounds.
No amount of adjusting the video controls got rid of the macro blocking that I saw.

I saw macro blocking in more movies than have been mentioned in this thread.

I want to know if anyone whith a dlp has watched dozens of movies whith dark scenes and not seen the macro blocking?

If so, maybe I will try a different 5900 out.

Milt99

12-10-03, 02:18 AM

Mantasack,
Are these ops amps plug-in/plug-out chips
or are they soldered.
I'm going to assume that you noticed a difference.

Elbert

12-10-03, 02:34 AM

Softengr - I am a bit curious about your audio comparisons between the 2900 and 5900 and would appreciate how they sounded on your set up. I trust that they do have similar electronics, but I have always heard improvements with higher quality transports, separate power capacitors, etc. If you truly didn't hear any difference on your system, I'll have to dissuade some of ny friends from pullig the trigger on the 5900.
If there is little or no difference between components with nearly the same audio electronics, then there shouldn't be much of a difference between $$$$ flagship players and the entry level products that toutes many of the same electronics as the flagships.
Thanks!
Elbert

nighthacker

12-10-03, 09:25 AM

Earz,

What chapters in pitch black have you had the problem with the macroblocking. I have this DVD and I'll check it out to see if I have the problem on this disc. FYI my display is a Tosh 57hx81 CRT based RPTV. I have had only 2 DVD's out of about 75 that I've checked that any hint of macroblocking and even then it was limited to only a min or two.

Ron

Earz

12-10-03, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by nighthacker
Earz,

What chapters in pitch black have you had the problem with the macroblocking. I have this DVD and I'll check it out to see if I have the problem on this disc. FYI my display is a Tosh 57hx81 CRT based RPTV. I have had only 2 DVD's out of about 75 that I've checked that any hint of macroblocking and even then it was limited to only a min or two.

Ron

I don't know what chapters but basically it is when the survivors are heading to the escape ship and there last bit of light is all but gone.

So just before they hide in the small cave through the final escape scene but only in dark scenes.

I believe digital displays have a lot bigger percentage of movies whith macro blocking in dark scenes than CRT's for some reason because my percentage of movies whith macro blocking was much greater than 2 out of 75.

bambam

12-10-03, 12:39 PM

"I am sharing my experience to cause potential Denon owners to critically think by giving then the facts. I'll bet that the 5900 will be available for $1200 with in six months."

That would be interesting, seeing $1200 is below cost. I don't think you'll even see "e-tailers" offering this price.

bambam

12-10-03, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by softengr
I am an engineer with 25 years of experience in audio and video. I try to advance the art.

I am sharing my experience to cause potential Denon owners to critically think by giving then the facts. I'll bet that the 5900 will be available for $1200 with in six months.

I guess I should format this the proper way! See my post above.

Kris Deering

12-10-03, 12:43 PM

I will check the Pitch Black scene as well. The only video annomaly I have seen so far was with Avia in the IRE window patterns. I have a plasma, not a DLP though.

D_B_0673

12-10-03, 02:27 PM

Kris, why is the link to your shootout/Review of the 5900 impossible to find from the Secrets Homepage?
Dan

Kris Deering

12-10-03, 03:17 PM

It is up on the mainpage now. The results are in the new shootout and there will be a full review up hopefully in the next few weeks. I am writing it now.

nighthacker

12-13-03, 07:29 AM

Earz,

I checked those scenes in pitch black on my 5900 and I did not have any issue with macroblocking at all. My display is a a tosh 57hx81 RPTV which is CRT based. PQ looked great, the blacks were deep and detailed with the image looking very sharp and 3d like.

Ron

keyser

12-13-03, 04:14 PM

Does Denon plan on releasing a solid video performer(DVI etc.) like the 5900, only cheaper(no DVD audio and no SACD, less features)?

Earz

12-13-03, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by nighthacker
Earz,

I checked those scenes in pitch black on my 5900 and I did not have any issue with macroblocking at all. My display is a a tosh 57hx81 RPTV which is CRT based. PQ looked great, the blacks were deep and detailed with the image looking very sharp and 3d like.

Ron

I have a feeling that the macro blocking has more to do whith the display used with the 5900 than anything else as I also had macro blocking in Blade 2 which Kris said he did not see on his display.

So except for movies like Unbreakable were the macro blocking has been seen on other types of displays whith the 5900, the problem discs that I saw are a problem whith only the 5900 and my DLP.

I guess I will have to wait till another player comes out that has the video quality of the 5900 but also works whith DLP.

If there were enough info available from other DLP owners that have tried the 5900 whithout the macro blocking, I would consider a different projector than my current x1 .

After watching the great transfer on Bad Boys, I was reminded of the great video from the 5900 whith lesser transfers.:(

Kris Deering

12-14-03, 01:03 AM

Most displays that are digital based (plasma, DLP, LCD) are limited to 8 bit gamma processing. This may add to the problem as well. Remember how bad early plasma displays looked?!? What we are seeing may be similar to that. Again a lot has to do with compression as well, as is the case with Unbreakable.

keyser

12-14-03, 06:16 AM

"Most displays that are digital based (plasma, DLP, LCD) are limited to 8 bit gamma processing. This may add to the problem as well"

Why will that add to the problem. Will you get better quality from a higher bit display even though DVD is limited to only 8 bits? Does it also then matter that the FLI23XX is only 8 bits, but weren´t the 22XX 10 bit?

Martin Butler

12-14-03, 10:23 AM

keyser, I'm not certain of the technicalities, but it's typical of digital processing that often a source is at it's best by processing that has higher resolutions, like upsampling/oversampling of CD's or 50/100k SACD processing. So it's quite likely that improved processing resolution will in fact lead to a better picture.

keyser

12-14-03, 11:04 AM

I recall reading somewhere that a display of higher bits(than the source) would result in worse PQ because of colour problems(or something very technical), I guess it was just BS.

Do then the latest plasma(10-12bit) have an advantade over DLP´s in that regard?

Martin Butler

12-14-03, 06:49 PM

Great question Keyser. If I remember correctly, Thomas J. Norton (Stereophile editor) hosted a round-table discussion at the CES show a few years ago and remarked that he felt plasma wouldn't become truly satisfying until it had 12 bit resolution.

sspears

12-14-03, 09:57 PM

Does it also then matter that the FLI23XX is only 8 bits, but weren´t the 22XX 10 bit?

The FLI23xx is 10-bit as well, internal. It only accepts 8-bit input, which is what comes out of the MPEG decoder. As soon as it comes in, all processing is done at 10-bit or higher. On output you can select 8 or 10-bit.

The FLI23xx actually fixes some deinterlacing issues that exist in the FLI22xx chips. It can run at 48 Hz or 72 Hz too, something the FLI22xx can't do. Then there is aspect ratio control and many more features.

The PixelWorks chip that is in many displays actually does its work at 8-bit precision. The FLI23xx is a much better scaler.

HD2+ accepts 10-bit in and runs at 12-bit internal. They are way ahead of Plasma. The new Sony HS20 claims 12-bit processing.

The FL23xx really should have allowed 10-bit input. HDMI will allow 10-bit, but if you have to pass through the 23xx, you are screwed. We can hope displays that offer 10-bit will bypass if they get a native signal. (native to panel)

Joe Murphy Jr

12-14-03, 10:47 PM

Stacey, on the Secrets site you give an introduction to digital video on DVDs in Section 1 -- Video. Is there any way you can add a section on the differences between the video and PC DVI standards for digital video and why those differences exist? The question or a related one comes up often and it would be nice to have an explanation available to reference -- not to mention another one of the many reasons to direct people to the Secrets site.

keyser

12-15-03, 11:22 AM

Is it likely that Denon will release a firmware that fixes the cropping "problem"? Have they done anything like that in the past?

sspears

12-15-03, 11:47 AM

Current graphics drivers, when using the VMR, now have 'video' levels for DVI. So, both the PC and your DVD player will have black at at the correct digital level of 16 over DVI. :) This change first occured with MCE 2004.

nighthacker

12-15-03, 04:24 PM

What cropping problem. I don't see any problem on my 5900. Do you have to be in a certain mode to see the problem.

Ron

pas1

12-15-03, 09:50 PM

I had posted the following on a seperate thread...but another AVSForum member thought my issue might be macroblocking......so I'm posting it again here in hopes that some of you that have experienced this "macroblocking" might be able to identify my issues as macroblocking....so here's my issues...and please if this sounds like macroblocking to you...please let me know..I'd appreciate it. IN FACT, ANY COMMENTS OR ADVICE WOULD BE APPRECIATED!!!!!

"TH-50PHD6UY..Strange PQ Issue..HELP"

"I need some expert advice from the many great AVSForum members out there. I'll try to be brief in explaining the proble...so here goes.

I purchased a Panny TH-50PHD6UY from Visual Apex about six weeks ago. I also purchase a new Denon DVD-5900 from Crutchfields and the Panny DVI blade for the 6UY from VA.

Anyway, I've immediately noticed issues with poor PQ while playing DVDs. Dark black images on the Panny appear purplely (purple) and washed out...at times it's so bad the picture can look like a purple watercolor painting. I've tried countless DVDs and the result are the same. At first I thought it must be an issue with the DVD player.

I had a ISF technician out about two weeks ago whom spent nearly three hours trying to calibrate the Panny....he gave up and claimed the Panny was having problems with all HD signals including satellite signals. We input DVI DVD signals at 480p/720p/&1080i with the same results. We input DVD signals through the various other Panny inputs using component, S-Video, whatever with the same results. He was also having the same issues when he put HD test patterns into the Panny from his test equipment.

Anyway, I informed Visual Apex, and talked to Panisonic and one week later I had a new TH-50PHD6UY delivered (Panasonic said that if a ISF technician couldn't calibrate the Panny there was no use in sending it to the Panny Service Center..they'd just repeat the calibration steps the ISF technician performed).

To my surprise, I'm having the same exact issues with the new Panny. Which makes me believe now that it could be an issue with the Panny (what are the odds of two faulty Pannys...when the Panny technician told me he hadn't heard of any similar issues with any of their plasmas). I believe I have eliminated any possible issues with the DVD player(s) and Panny inputs....I have used two different DVD players with two different DVI cables...different component cables, and different S-video cables.... to different Panny inputs whith the same purple images....so I know it is not the DVD player(s)...plus I get some of the same issues while watching DirecTV with both SD and HD.

I can get the purple coloration to disappear if I crank the brightness level down from the default of 0 to -25 but I lose PQ (detail). I've also eliminated possible interference from my DirecTV and ReplayTV boxes by turning them off while viewing a DVD...but I get the same issues.

I've played with the Panny Picture Menu settings from Auto..to STD..to Dynamic..to Cinema...and can't solve the issue. If played with the Color Temp settings from Normal..to Cool...to Warm...I'm lost!!!!!

I am considering having a different ISF technician come out to calibrate the Panny but I'm already out $250 for the first ISF technician to partially calibrate the first Panny which is in the box in the garage.

I guess I'm going to have to have another ISF technician come out (I don't have any other recourse...I can't watch washed out purplely images on a $8K plasma/DVD setup!!!! I don't see the need to even explore the idea of a third Panny delivered to my home! I'm also considering a higher end Monster Power Center to filter all my equipment.

Any suggestion out there I might try???? Different Settings? Anyone have a similar setup and did you also have to crank the default Brightness Level down to solve similar issues?? Thanks.......HELP!!!!""""""""

Kris Deering

12-15-03, 10:00 PM

Plasma monitors are extremelly tricky to setup and involve a LOT of trial and error. The purple problem stems from the gamma setup which may be way off on the Panny. There could be other things as well. Without seeing your setup and getting a look at it first hand myself there isn't much I can do for you, and you'll probably find the same of most others. I have a NEC plasma and it took several hours to dial it in with a lot of trial and error to figure out all of the quircks with the display. Now it is a great monitor but still suffers slightly from gamma issues that are common with plasma (slight solarization with some material).

keyser

12-16-03, 07:58 AM

nighthacker "What cropping problem. I don't see any problem on my 5900. Do you have to be in a certain mode to see the problem."

It´s hardly a huge problem, but I guote the benchmark test "The 5900 passed just about all of our tests with the exception of pixel cropping. For some reason, five pixels were cropped on the right side of the image."

Which gives it a "borderline" performance.

To the benchmark guys,

Are you planning on testing the video levels, yc delay (and give the DVI a more thorough inspection) later?

Kris Deering

12-16-03, 10:58 AM

Yes

keyser

12-16-03, 11:39 AM

Brilliant. Is there a timeframe you can say for the testing?

Dave Vaughn

12-16-03, 12:04 PM

I had my second intance of macroblocking last night. I was watching Varsity Blues on my Hitachi 57SWX20B and had a macroblocking sky as busses were traveling down a road. It was pretty minimal, but was there. The weird thing was, is that it was a dusk sky (more blue than black). The only other instance that I have had was with Bend it like Beckham.

Dave

Kris Deering

12-16-03, 01:46 PM

I think a lot of what people are saying is macroblocking is definately compression artifacts, especially in backgrounds. But I will take a look at it.

No timeframe for testing as we haven't gotten a O-Scope yet.

Dave Vaughn

12-16-03, 01:59 PM

Kris,
It may definately be compression artifacts. It almost looks like a blown up video that you would see on your computer. (going from small screen to large screen when the video was made for small screen). Just kind of blotchy.

Not a big deal though. Just reporting what I have seen.

Dave

Kris Deering

12-16-03, 02:47 PM

Thanks Dave. Most DVD producers try to limit compression artifacts to foreground so it isn't as distracting. They figure the audiences attention will be on whatever the focus of the shot is, so backgrounds tend to be noisy a lot.

leegeousa

12-17-03, 02:01 PM

For me the only macroblocking I can clearly see (on my Pio plasma) is with the VE disc test patterns. There are supposed to be just grey solid boxes/bars so I guess great opportunities for large compression. But then how come with my 45a, no such problem exists? Is it because the lowly
45a cannot pick up the subtle encoding differncese? Some video adjustments have been mentioned that can make the problem go away on the 5900, but which ones?

I have (relatively) more problems with the audio side of the player. Disc 2 of the Ultimate Platinum DVD - The DTS and DD demo tracks keep stuttering. Track 8 of the Fairport Convention DVDA Close to the Wind skips a little. But the most mysterious is the Jacintha's Jacintha is Her Name SACD. Yesterday when I tried to play it (after the machine has warmed up) the display showed 6 tracks with 0 mins and 0 secs while the disc actually has 10 tracks. It played the first 5 tracks alright but not from the 6th track onwards. During the entire time the display showed track 1 and 0 mins 0 secs. A few weeks ago I played this disc immediately after I turned on the machine and it seemed to play OK. I know a fellow member has no problems playing this disc at all but then my 45a has no problems playing all 3 discs.

Like I said before in another thread, I would not utter a word of complaint if I had only paid $1,600 (seems >97% of you guys did) for it. And if I had gotten it for less than $1,400, it can even sleep on my bed (though not every night), with or without the sprouse's approval.

BTW, does anyone know what the warning on page 11 of the manual is about?

Martin Butler

12-17-03, 05:17 PM

It's strange to me that some people don't consider the fact that the 5900 is quirky with some discs to be a big deal. Maybe the positives far outweigh the negatives for them. I would like to hear a comment from Denon regarding the 5900's inability to play some CD/SACD's. This must be at least the tenth time someone has said a certain disc plays perfectly on other players but not through the Denon.

What's up with this?

Kris Deering

12-17-03, 06:17 PM

Unless the ability to play certain discs rings true for ALL owners then it is an anomoly with that certain player. I have only had one disc that would not play, Chicago V DVD-A. I asked John Kotches to try the same title on his player and he had no problems. Instances such as these can be the disc or the player. I have had LOTS of DVDs that wouldn't play on the Bravo but would play fine on other players. I have yet to have a single DVD movie, CD, or SA-CD not play and only 1 disc in my collection of DVD-As hasn't played.

I am not excusing the player, I am just not making a mountain out of a mole hill. When someone gives me something that is repeatable on every player then I will address it as I did the artifacting in the video essentials IRE windows.

Dave Vaughn

12-17-03, 07:13 PM

Kris,
Very good point. I have yet to have a CD or DVD not play in my player. The only thing close to that is a copy of VE, which took a while to load because the DVD itself was so cold (it had just come in the mail). Once it warmed up to room temperature, it played just fine.

Dave

Martin Butler

12-17-03, 07:46 PM

Kris, I understand and appreciate your perspective, but my point is there have been more than a few mentions of this difficulty in this post. I realize that unless a defect can be reproduced throughout the majority of players produced it may fall under the manufacturers radar. Nevertheless, it seems to me there are a few too many mentions of this problem for it to be overlooked by Denon. This forum is a good sampler for companies to gain valuable market research and feedback and this "disc X, Y and Z didn't play in my 5900"
talk worries me a bit as a prospective buyer.

Tom Grooms

12-17-03, 08:48 PM

You dont want to be a beta tester Martin? It only cost's $1800 to sign up. ;)

cmont

12-17-03, 11:40 PM

I've played quite a few discs (SACD, DVDA, DVDV, CD) with nary a problem to be found.

What has surprised me most with this player is its analog performance with DVDA and SACD. It's quite good sonically.

Chris

Rosano

12-18-03, 08:50 AM

I have aslo been playing with my 5900...mostly doing setup stuff and re-cal as I aslo took my system completely apart and re-wired everything.Added some new stuff and got rid of other stuff.

So far eveything I have thrown at or tried to do with the 5900 has been excellent. The player is very quiet..reads all the discs OK..... will get into the finer points of the unit during the holidays...SO FAR SO GOOD.

leegeousa

12-18-03, 09:03 AM

I wonder what is the percentage of the owners out there that has not yet had a single problem so far. If a majority of the owners has at least one problem, is this a cause of concern for Denon? Or may be they are betting on the superior PQ will suppress all other minor (so they think) complaints? To me the inability to play certain discs is a major flaw particularly my 45a can play anything that I throw at it. I agree that this may not be a major problem (for Denon) if it only happens to a low percentage of the players. On the other hand just imagine your big screen TV won't show some of your favorite programs and you have to watch them on your 13-incher instead.

I wonder does the Lexicon RT-10 have similar quirks. It is merely about a grand more.

keyser

12-18-03, 09:40 AM

Aren´t there disk-player compatability problems with all players to some extent. My Pio 737 can´t play Jeepers Creepers at all.

dpippel

12-18-03, 10:28 AM

I've played dozens of DVDs, dozens of Redbook CDs, and about 2 dozen SACDs on my 5900 and have never had a skip, a dropout, a stutter, a mechanism siezure, etc. The player has operated flawlessly since day one. The only problem I've seen is the subtitle popup issue on The Two Towers Extended Edition others here have described.

Kris Deering

12-18-03, 10:37 AM

I am still trying to get that subtitile pop up anomally. I have tried about five times with no success. Seems odd that so many here can do it yet I can't.

I am meeting with Denon in January and I will bring it up with them but I probably can't recreate it for them.

Martin Butler

12-18-03, 10:44 AM

I've had at least ten DVD players and never had a disc that didn't play properly (unless the disc itself was damaged). So if most people have no trouble with the 5900, kudos should not be given, as that should be expected, especially from an expensive high end player. That's why I was concerned about many statements regarding disc playing difficulties mentioned here, as it's quite unusual, at least as far as my experience goes.

If say.. three of my favorite discs didn't play on a new $1500 player, I'd be pissed, not apologetic.

Dave Vaughn

12-18-03, 11:42 AM

Kris,
Do the following with the Two Towers. It has to be the extended addition playing in DTS-ES. It happens at around the 30-31.5 minute mark of disk one. (When the orcs want to eat Merry and Pippen). It happened to me last night. All I had to do was pause the movie and then rewind it one frame and the subtitle was gone. I think this may be a disk issue. I will take it to a friends today and see if I can recreate it.

Dave

Kris Deering

12-18-03, 02:10 PM

I tried that exact version with that soundtrack a few times with no luck.

Dave Vaughn

12-18-03, 02:13 PM

Kris,
Very strange. I'll let you know what I find out when I try it on other players. I will also see if I can recreate it on mine by jumping to that chapter. Maybe it is something you have to play all the way through in order for it to appear or something. I'll keep you posted.

Dave

hdpaul

12-18-03, 02:47 PM

I posted this a few days ago in another thread. I thought I would repost it here, since this is where problems like mine have shown up.
This CD (Sting, Sacred Love) contains SACD Surround, SACD Stereo, and CD versions on one disc. The SACD Stereo and CD versions always play fine. In other words, it only skips in the "Multi" mode. (The SACD Surround version of this disc contains an extended version of track 5 with 2 extra minutes which is awsome.)

Has anyone else that has experienced skipping tried playing in other modes if possible? Are the discs that skip all "hybrid" SACDs or DVD-A's? I wonder if this could have something to do with the "Multi" mode of this player.

Anyway, here is my original post:

I am on my second 5900. The first one had a problem with the DVI port.

On my first 5900, it played all SACDs with exceptional sound. Except for Stings, Sacred Love.

This SACD played fine for about 20 plays, and then started skipping at about half way through. Playing as a CD it worked fine. I returned it for a new copy and SACD played fine.

I received my new 5900, again, after about 20 plays of Sacred Love, it started skipping about half way through again.

This problem only occurs on the SACD version of the CD. The I have many other SACDs that all play fine.

Has anyone else had SACDs skipping on them? Is this just some kind of weird coincidence? Could it be that after X amount of hybrid CD plays, the SACD section wears out?

Kris Deering

12-18-03, 03:07 PM

The idea of the SACD section of the player "wearing out" is a bit far fetched. We're only talking about a few components, none of which will exhibit wear. As far as this re-occuring, who knows. Could be a bunch of different issues.

hdpaul

12-18-03, 03:18 PM

Sorry for the misunderstanding Kris, I was referring to the SACD layer of the CD, not the SACD section of the player.

Kris Deering

12-18-03, 03:56 PM

No problem. I will keep an eye out for more outbreaks of this in the future.

gandley

12-18-03, 04:01 PM

Have the denon A11 uk version, and its perfect.

No macroblocking what so ever. no problems with subtitles in lord of rings.
is multiregion enabled with no problems., Menus dont seem that slow.
dvi out is enabled out of the box.

I cant find any of the problems listed in this or other threads.

only dam fly in ointment is the firewire issue with pioneer amps.

other that well impressed. kicks the new pioneer 868i (hdmi model)ass as well.
which my friend has.

Tom Grooms

12-18-03, 04:12 PM

kicks the new pioneer 868i (hdmi model)ass as well.
which my friend has. Can you elaborate?

gandley

12-18-03, 04:25 PM

well compared side by side both on the pioneer 434hde and me PJ

the pio still sounds like a tin can, awful.(well when compred to the A11 that is)

component out of the pio is ok for the price but not excellent.
and while its hdmi out pic is better i and my friend thought the A11 component was better. a much more pleasing image.

also the pio deck locks the aspect ratio on the pio plasma so u cant expand the pic to reduce the borders.(when in hdmi mode)

deinterlacing of the pio is still not good

Tom Grooms

12-18-03, 04:43 PM

Tin-Can sounding? deinterlacing not good? I guess we'll have to wait for a non biased evaluation. :rolleyes:

leegeousa

12-18-03, 05:21 PM

Dustin, have you tried Title 17, Chapters 30 and 50 of VE?

gandley

12-18-03, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by Tom Grooms
Tin-Can sounding? deinterlacing not good? I guess we'll have to wait for a non biased evaluation. :rolleyes:

er why biased, this was exactly what my friend thought as well and he owns the 868i and the pio plasma, and cosidering ive owned the last 3 models of pioneer dvd players i dont see whats biased about it. it aint as good as the A11 full stop. this is my first denon player as always been put off by the bad stories.
the deinterlacing has never been that good on pioneer decks while this is a bit better, it is still not as good as silicon image or faroudja

id try to reply to threads based on fact if it were me

oh as for VE this arrives in a couple of days so will try this right away, will post if i see it or not

Tom Grooms

12-18-03, 08:30 PM

OK, it does suck, and it does sound like a tin-can and in-fact does have poor deinterlacing.id try to reply to threads based on fact if it were me
Thanks for clearing that up. I guess these are facts and not just opinions...
:rolleyes:

sorry guy's, we now return this thread to it's regularly scheduled programing (already in progress)

Joe Murphy Jr

12-18-03, 09:36 PM

SACD wearing out

Where was Sting's new SACD pressed? The Crest facility had (if you'll excuse the pun) pressing problems with Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and Star Trek: Nemisis, among others. The formula for the disc composition was supposedly changed to fix the issues.

Check the center of the disc for cracking, streaks, etc. This may not be the answer to your playback troubles, but it might help.

Was this actually a DSD recording or was it transferred from PCM?

I like Sting's earlier work with the Police and I have about five of his solo releases. That said, I have to ask a question: 40 times -- how could you listen to that stuff so much?
:-)

gandley

12-18-03, 10:02 PM

Tom Grooms

sorry m8 didnt mean to be rude, please except my apology.

what do i know anyway.

JoyElyse

12-18-03, 11:50 PM

For what it's worth, I have been using the 5900 A LOT since early or mid October, and have yet to have a problem with CDs, SACD (though I don't use this much), DVD, DVDR, DVDRW, video CD, etc. No problems at all. No marco blocking. No skipping. No grinding. No pop up subtitles.

Could be I'm just lucky, but past experienced would tend to dispute that. :)

Tom Grooms

12-18-03, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by Milt99
Mr. Grooms brooks no positive assessment
of the Denon. Forget that he has zero experience with either player
you mention. Or maybe I have over 20 hours with this player in my 2 channel reference system and a good 5 hours or so in my HT. Hell, I even have a couple hours of Ultimate Electronics (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3005323#post3005323) time on the unit, trying to get a Pioneer Elite VSX 49TXi to accept it's SACD stream via IEEE 1394. (didn't work)

It's a good player and it was well broken in before i received it. I haven't seen any video problems and all my audio disc's worked. It's my neighbors player and he hasn't had a problem yet. He wants it back this weekend to start the power supply mods. But he wont be getting his Kimber Palladian Powerkord, It's found a new home in my Integrated. :cool:

leegeousa

12-19-03, 08:51 AM

Last night I played Jacintha is Her Name SACD again cold. It was fine for the first 10-15 minute, then the stuttering/skip started, with occasional loud "thuds". I switched to stereo mode then it played all the way to the end with no hiccups.

There may be some problems with this particular disc, then why my 45a has no problem playing it, multichannel or not? Does that mean the 45a has a better error correction mechanism?

When members said that they have no probelms with their machines, have they tried the problem discs that were mentioned in this thread? I know it is not likely that everybody will have the same discs but I expect most will have VE. I believe if you do have macroblocking problems, you can easily see it on this disc.

Martin Butler

12-19-03, 10:53 AM

leegeousa, that's exactly the kind of thing I was concerned about (Kris, please take note). It may very well be the disc is somehow faulty, but if the Pioneer can play it, why can't the Denon? I'd sure like to know the answer before buying one.

Good to see a fellow New Yorker at the boards. :D

Kris Deering

12-19-03, 11:04 AM

I have confirmed the issue with VE, it is also evident on AVIA as well. I don't have the "Jacintha is Her Name" disc though. All the others I have tried without fault though.

The only problem I have been able to replicate using my player is the artifacts associated with IRE Windows on both VE and AVIA. I have reported this to Denon. I have mentioned that others are having issues with certain discs as well but I have not been able to replicate them. If they can't replicate it, how in the world do you think they are going to fix it???

bambam

12-19-03, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by JoyElyse
For what it's worth, I have been using the 5900 A LOT since early or mid October, and have yet to have a problem with CDs, SACD (though I don't use this much), DVD, DVDR, DVDRW, video CD, etc. No problems at all. No marco blocking. No skipping. No grinding. No pop up subtitles.

Could be I'm just lucky, but past experienced would tend to dispute that. :)

Ditto for me! Although add a lot of SACD and DVD-A listening on my end!

leegeousa

12-19-03, 11:31 AM

Bambam, I guess you have tried VE and has no problem either?

Kris, I know what you mean. Besides VE I really didn't see any obvious macroblocking on some of the problem discs mentioned here. No grinding noise and I don't have the subtitle problem with my TTT either. Even if it did (subtitle problems, I mean) it is not a major concern for me. The inability to play certain discs is. The funny thing with the Jacintha disc is that problems started to crop up only when the machine warmed up. My old Panny A310 had similar problems with certain discs and it eventually died.

vgagamagone

12-19-03, 11:42 AM

Hello, all..

Maybe this could be of some help about the macro-blocking issue. With my unit I had macro-blocking all over the place. Before returning the unit I tried setting the enhanced black level (DVI) to normal. When I returned the black to normal the macro-blocking disappeared. Now I have a picture without the macro-blocking. I don't post much, but maybe this could help others with the problem.. Thank you

Kris Deering

12-19-03, 11:45 AM

I don't use the DVI output and it is there with the analog stage.

Tom Grooms

12-19-03, 11:47 AM

after all this time are we still clueless about the Denon's inability to pass an SACD stream through IEEE 1394?

Kris Deering

12-19-03, 12:01 PM

We know that it doesn't work with any of the 1394 compliant receivers on the market. I will be discussing this with Denon in January.

x94blair3

12-19-03, 12:55 PM

Thanks for taking the time to work with us and keep us up to date. I know for me, you're as close to Denon as I'm liable to get. It's reassuring that issues will be addressed and hopefully fixed.

Any plans to put the 59ai through it's paces? I think a lot of us think it could be the first real contender to the 5900.

I'm hoping that's decided before I finally have to pick one. :D

Thanks again.

-Nick

Dave Vaughn

12-19-03, 02:13 PM

I will try turning off the enhanced black level to see if it helps on VE. On one movie, I had to turn it on to get rid of it. Very Weird!!!

Dave

RobHughes

12-19-03, 03:00 PM

I am new to this board, having gone looking for information about the video problems I've been having with my Denon 5900. I see I am not alone.

I bought the 5900 for use as an audio player. I have thought it very good in that regard. It replaced a Toshiba SD-9200 in my system, which I like a lot but lacked some keyfeatures like bass management. The 5900 sounds better than the Toshiba with CD, DVD-A, and HDCD (the Toshiba was $1500 when introduced and is a well built, quality product). On SACD in 2-channel, my Sony 555-ES sounds better, but for Multichannel the Denon's ability to do channel delay outweighs the other sonic benefits of the Sony (although I kept the Sony to play CDs and 2-channel SACDs). As an audio player, the 5900 I think is very good, especially since it does it ALL.

But for video I thought the Denon was not as good as the Toshiba. I have a CRT-based Mitsubishi HDTV but it will not accept 480p, so I use componant interlaced connections. Dark scenes definitely trip up the Denon, although the severity of the issue seems to differ from movie to movie. I could see the atrifacts on a 20 inch Panasonic TV I have connected via composite video to the Denon as well.

I just last night performed the firmware upgrade to enable DVI, even though my set does not have it, hoping maybe that will fix the problem, but have been to busy with work since then to test it out. If it does I will report back. But has anyone tried monkeying with the picture controls to see if turning up some of the noise filters helps? Will try that later on too.

jon_k

12-19-03, 03:28 PM

did u use avia or v.e. yet? that cleared up all the macroblocking i had with my tv.

RobHughes

12-19-03, 03:33 PM

Jon I have VE but have not used specificlly with the Denon, just my TV itself. What specifically was it from VE that you did that helped, may I ask?

jon_k

12-19-03, 03:41 PM

i never used it before, but after correctly adjusting the brightness/darkness and the contrast with the v.e. disk, it completely corrected my macroblocking problem. keep in mind, i did not adjust these levels on the denon, but on the tv itself while playing the v.e. on the denon (i will eventually try to tweak it more, but just don't have the time). i then wondered why i never noticed it before on say, cable tv, and after comparing the regular digital cable coming in, i realized that it is just because the denon puts out alot more detail that my tv couldn't handle. with the regular cable, even though my brightness and contrast wasn't technically correct, it looked fine because it just doesn't have the same detail in the dark scenes.

RobHughes

12-19-03, 04:01 PM

Jon that's interesting. It does seem that the Denon puts out a "hotter" video signal (I'm an audio guy more than a video guy so I;m not sure of the exact term for this). So while I have used VE to adjust my TV, I have not used it with the Denon. I will try this. But when you made the changes that cleared up the macroblocking was the detail in the dark scenes still good?

dr1394

12-19-03, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by Kris Deering
We know that it doesn't work with any of the 1394 compliant receivers on the market. I will be discussing this with Denon in January.
If I could just get a DVD-5900 (been waiting almost a month now), I will
be able to tell exactly why it does or does not interoperate on 1394
with the Pioneer receivers very quickly. I'm hoping it arrives before you talk
to Denon so that I can arm you with accurate and undeniable information.
Otherwise, I'm afraid they'll just toss a smokescreen at you on the 1394
interoperability issue.

Ron

Martin Butler

12-19-03, 11:55 PM

Quoting Kris, " If they can't replicate it, how in the world do you think they are going to fix it???
__________________________________________

Intermittent problems are definitely frustrating. Hopefully you'll eventually be able to duplicate the "no play" problem. Does Denon receive the returned players? Perhaps if they get enough complaints or returns, that'll gain their attention. Or they may find an answer, even if they can't duplicate it at that moment if they become aware of a problem and check into it.

Maybe someone can send the disc they're having trouble with to you and that may work (or not ;) )

RobHughes

12-22-03, 03:48 PM

Well, after tweaking my set, it seems you can mask the macroblocking by bringing the player's contrast and brightness down, and by changing the default blacklevel to 0 instead of 7.5. But it still seems to me that on darker scenes my Pioneer DV45a has far fewer artifacts than the DVD-5900, so I hope Denon can address this with another firmware update. Since I bought it as an audio player, and think it performs well in that regard, I am keeping it, but I would of course prefer it did not have this issue. It looks great on many DVDs, but clearly does have issues with others.

Cain

12-26-03, 09:00 PM

Audioholics.com has tested the 5900 and they claim it has a "Contrast Bug".

I'll bet that this turns out to be what is causing many folks to see the macroblocking on dark scenes, because the player has some glitch with its contrast range.

Here's the link:

http://www.audioholics.com/productr...ontrastBug.html

--

Hopefully Denon can replicate the issue, and I know if they can they will get this corrected.

-- Cain

dinoSnake

12-26-03, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by Martin Butler
Quoting Kris, " If they can't replicate it, how in the world do you think they are going to fix it???
__________________________________________

Intermittent problems are definitely frustrating. Hopefully you'll eventually be able to duplicate the "no play" problem. Does Denon receive the returned players? Perhaps if they get enough complaints or returns, that'll gain their attention. Or they may find an answer, even if they can't duplicate it at that moment if they become aware of a problem and check into it.

Maybe someone can send the disc they're having trouble with to you and that may work (or not ;) )

Hi. :D I do not own a 5900 but can I ask you guys try something on the 5900's which have SACD playback problems? Try unplugging the unit, say for an evening, and then plugging it back in again. See if that helps any. Most likely not, but you never know.

Good luck to all and best of regards.

Dave Vaughn

12-26-03, 11:57 PM

Cain,
This supposed "contrast bug" is being blown out of proportion by them. For starters, their display isn't even calibrated properly using colorfacts. I have used the program and thier color eye to calibrate 4 different TV's and have never had to have blue at 140%! Their grayscale won't be close to D65K with the blue being that high. The gamma readings from the 5900 are right at 2.2 (which is ideal for a RPTV). The only thing that the 5900 does is it has a higher blue content through the DVI port only by about 10% in the middle IRE's. This isn't there on the Compontent connector. I have owned both a 2900 and 5900 and I prefer the picture of the 5900 over the 2900 becuase it is much sharper (in test paterns as well as actual movies). The macroblocking has nothing to do with contrast anyway (contrast is for the upper IRE's, brightness is for the lower IRE's). The macroblocking is being caused by the MPEG decoder in the 5900 (which I am not sure if it is the same as the 2900 but I don't think it is). Kris from Secrets is checking this out with Denon and will probably chime in on this issue.

Dave

Dave Vaughn

12-26-03, 11:59 PM

Just a quick note. The 5900 and the 2900 uses different MPEG decoders. The 2900 uses a Mitsubishi decoder which is "chroma bug free" (but has other issues), and the 5900 uses a chip I haven't heard of before but it is listed on their website.

Dave

Cain

12-27-03, 04:55 AM

Thx Dave, I wondered about that 140% blue also !!

Re the higher blue on DVI, that makes sense to me now. I do not own any test equipment, but when I tried the DVI I had a really hard time getting the colors correct, so much so that I went back to component.

With the problem I had with DVI color, combined with the other problems I had (random subtitles popping up at odd times, the macroblocking, and the really slow menus) I decided to ship the 5900 back.

I really liked the sharpness, and would have kept the player if it was less expensive and/or did not have the problems above.

Hopefully they will get these issues fixed.

Take care, and thanks for the info and reply.

-- Cain

Ken Stokes

12-27-03, 10:39 AM

Just a comment,
The day I picked up my 5900 I had an ISF calibration set up so the 5900 was used for the calibration. I've tried to find the macroblocking and can't, could it be the results of the calibration have corrected this?

I'll admit the menus are slow and the responsiveness to the remote commands are sluggish but I really enjoy both audio and video from this player. It's not going anywhere.

Ken

Dave Vaughn

12-27-03, 12:34 PM

Haviing the contrast and brightness set correctly is very important on any player, let alone this one. With the blue being at 140%, their grayscale temp is going to be closer to 8500 Kelvin, instead of 6500. Also, they mention a red blip on their grayscale having to do with red push....WRONG. Red push is an issue with the color DECODER, not grayscale. Also, the colormeter that they were using isn't very accuarate below 20 IRE (I don't care what milori says, it was jumping all over the place as far as readings go when I was using it). I don't know what type of training the people at audioholics have had, but I am not sure that I would trust them on this issue. I would be interested to see what Kris from secrets has to say about this though.

Dave

Kris Deering

12-27-03, 01:03 PM

Having your display calibrated AFTER you get the 5900 is extremelly important and will help tremendously with the issues.

As for the Contrast issue, I let them know that the proper way to execute this test is with an O-Scope. You can check the voltages directly to ensure that 0 IRE and 100 IRE are in fact being displayed. This is the most accurate way and normally a test we do, but with our scope stolen we haven't had the chance to find a replacement yet; which can be VERY expensive.

We will test this as soon as possible though and report on it.

Steve DellaSala

12-29-03, 01:06 PM

Greetings everyone,

Once again, we thank you all for your comments and concerns about our article. Since this weekend, I have contacted Milori and had a fairly lengthy discussion with them. While the key person is traveling, I was able to catch him on his cell phone. From his initial comments, I have the following information to report.

1) Validity of Test - First of all, Mark was intrigued by our testing procedure and indicated that if the only variable is the DVD player, then this seems to be a valid method of comparison. As we indicated in our review, this is not an absolute measurement, but comparative. He seemed to agree that this is indeed valid.

2) Trichromat Sensor - Mark told me that it is very true that this sensor (as with many others including the Sencore) does not measure color within 2% at or below 10-IRE. I asked him the following. If the sensor can not measure color within 2% at 10-IRE, then how can it measure black and white and provide an accurate contrast ratio? Mark indicated that this was a great question, and offered the following response. The Trichromat Sensor is made up of four sensors potted into a housing. Three sensors are for color and the fourth gell mounted sensor is for measuring light (luminous) intensity. While the sensor does go "color blind" below 10-IRE and can not measure color below this, it is still able to measure light power and therefore, fully capable of providing contrast ratios, as indicated in their ColorFacts software.

3) Mark is still coming back from traveling and on a busy schedule, but he did assure me that he will review our article and our test procedure. From what I've described to him, he still seems to feel that while we are not providing absolute measurements, we are providing a "real world" application and showing a valid comparison.

Lastly, I did spend some time updating the article based on everyones feedback herein. For starters, I toned down the accusation of the "Contrast Bug" until we really know for sure. The other thing I added was the fact that our measurements were based on the DVD player being on the 7.5-IRE setting. To be honest with you all, the manual for this player stinks, and we honestly didn't know the player had this setting. We were aware of the chroma settings, and brightness and contrast settings, and did our best to adjust them, but we didn't know it had another entire setting for clipping the player at 7.5-IRE. I have mailed the sensor to Gene and he will be doing the test over at the 0-IRE setting later this week. But from what we've seen, it seems to not only tone down the black, but the white as well when switching this setting.

Anyway, we really do appreciate everyone's professional, proactive comments. If it's OK with you all, we will continue to monitor this forum and respond accordingly. In the mean time, we have indeed updated the article and thanks for all your input and comments.

__________________
Steve DellaSala
Audioholics

reardon

12-29-03, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by sspears
Current graphics drivers, when using the VMR, now have 'video' levels for DVI. So, both the PC and your DVD player will have black at at the correct digital level of 16 over DVI. :) This change first occured with MCE 2004.

Sorry, I am still a little bit thick about it. Are you saying that a value of 16-Luma coming out of the MPEG2 decoder will be passed thru the VMR and out of the DVI port as 16 (color-spaced converted from YUV to RGB) or are you saying that MPEG2 decoder values of *0* are passed thru the D VI port as 16?

If the latter, how do I avoid clipping of below-16 Luma?

Also, is this DVI behaviour the same with VMR7 and VMR9?

Specifically, I am trying to configure Media Player Classic (yeah, yeah, I miss the old tiny Microsoft player) using its internal MPEG2 decoder to do the right thing. It allows for "expanding" 16-235 to 0-255. Have you seen this option? I would assume that expanding is the equivalent to clipping.

-Reardon

Dave Vaughn

12-30-03, 01:56 PM

If you want to minimize the macroblocking, their is a way to do it. Kris at Secrets was nice enough to share this with me. Go into the picuture setup menu on the 5900 with the VE 20IRE window showing. Adjust the black level control (on second menu page), until the macroblocking is minimized. It doesn't completely get rid of it, but it minimizes it greatly if done right. Once you do this, you need to reset contrast and brightness (mostly brightness) on your display using either Avia or VE (I prefer Avia). After doing this tweak, I put in a disk that I saw macroblocking on (Seabiscuit) and the artifacts were now gone.

Good Luck.

Dave

Martin Butler

01-01-04, 11:48 PM

I'm sorry, I think the idea of having to tweak a $1500 DVD player to not quite get rid of a picture defect (macroblocking) is preposterous. Denon needs to respond to this. Too much has been said about this for it to be a quirk.

Kris Deering

01-02-04, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by Martin Butler
I'm sorry, I think the idea of having to tweak a $1500 DVD player to not quite get rid of a picture defect (macroblocking) is preposterous. Denon needs to respond to this. Too much has been said about this for it to be a quirk.

While I agree that Denon should address it, lets not be too rash. How many people have to tweak their $20K+ PJs in almost monthly, or how about every $3K+ DVD player out there that has inherent problems that are never addressed.

The MPEG decoder is just a bit too sensitive, therefore compression issues INHERENT IN THE DVD are shown more then some other players. This is why the best transfers don't show the same problems. If it was a hard fault, it would be there with every DVD you watched, and I can almost guarantee I have watched more DVDs with this player then almost anyone since I review them and watch about 2 a day on average EVERYDAY.

I don't see Denon changing the decoder and I have it on good authority that this isn't something that can be fixed with firmware. Like every other player out there it has a fault, but I don't see it any worse then most others have, and not nearly as bad as some others. I still stand by my position that this is one of the best DVD players I have seen to date overall, especially given its price point.