HK AVR630 Review, Audio Dropouts & Firmware Issues

[Rgb]

I have had my HK630 for two weeks now. It is installed in a dedicated ~500ft^2 basement theater in a custom wall rack, manually calibrated with a Rat Shack SPL meter. My 630 drives PSB Century 800i's FL/FR, Century 200ci FC, and Acoustic Research AR215PS's SR/SL, and a pair of AudioSource 12" 250W subs in a 5.1 configuration. I will soon add a pair of AR215's for the rear centers for a 7.1 setup. Speakers are wired to the 630 with 12ga OFC Sound King from Parts Express. A Panasonic RP82 handles the DVD's via 30ft RG6 over component straight to a PLV60 and a Monster 6ft Toslink cable to the 630.

First, the good.

I am very impressed with the build quality and industrial design of the 630. The American-influenced design of the front face controls, OSD, front flourescent display and remote controls are a refreshing change and big improvement over the cluttered, techie-oriented designs from Japanese receivers I have owned in the past (Pioneer 26TX, Sony 30ES, and Pioneer and JVC Best Buy-grade receivers going back 15 years).

The back-to-basics controls design on the 630 are a welcome respite from the microscopic buttons, over-populated front panels and remotes, often with poor contrast labels, on prior receivers mentioned. Many holiday guests have remarked how "cool" the blue LED display and uniquely illuminated, matching volume dial look. The graphical display of available source channels and number of active speakers (not always the same!) was a BIG bonus on this receiver over past models.

The OSD was simple to use, and helped to setup and calibrate the 630 in about an hour or less from first powerup. Setting speaker distances and levels was straightforward. I set the Quad crossover to "Global" mode, and easily setup the crossover points for each group of speakers.

Audio performance- Outstanding!

*Very*detailed delivery of the Windtalkers soundtrack in a very 3-dimensional soundfield.

Chitty Chitty Bang Bang SE delivered a rousing musical rendition via the 630. Lots of power to spare, with superb dynamics.

In addition to these movies, we watched T3, Pirates of the Carribean, X2, Boondock Saints, and playd many party games via a HTPC like YDKJ, Family Feud, Outburst and Millionaire. The 630 handled this large variation of audio sources deftly, delivering a great sonic perfomance, with a deeper, fuller bottom end than the 26TX it replaced.

As far as the midrange and highs go, the AVR630 sounds very similar to the VSX-26TX in my setup (which I liked a lot).


The bad-

My biggest beef, mentioned on these forums elsewhere (but I want to reiterate so that someone at HK listens ;) ) is the audio dropout when changing audio source encoding format (audio program streams/tracks on a DVD). Many on this forum have described the problem as a audio locking delay when feeding the 630 a digital bitstream via coax or TOSlink.

On my 630, the audio lock issue appears to be a firmware related dropout problem, probably due to a bug in the bitstream analysis / switching algorithm. This is what happens:

Place a movie like Shrek, which has DD5.1, DD2.0, and DTS5.1 audio streams on it, into your DVD player, connected to the 630 via digital coax or TOSlink. Start the main movie (with the DVD selected on the 630 of course), then change audio streams with the "Audio" button on your DVD player's remote. This will toggle through each available audio track. When you change from DTS5.1 to DD5.1, for example (don't recall the exact order of audio streams on Shrek), the 630 will instantly change it's flourescent front display to indicate the correct stream type, and (this is important) I hear the new audio stream correctly, but only for a second or so. Then the front display flashes and the audio drops out (mutes) for 2 or 3 seconds, then comes back.

So, the issue (at least for my 630) is not in audio stream detection speed, as it appears to instantly recognize audio stream changes (from the front LED display) and I hear the new audio stream briefly before the 630 decides to mute itself briefly.

Why is this important? Because when you start a movie from the DVD menu, which are nearly *always* DD2.0, when the THX logo or studio logo starts (which is DD5.1 or DTS), the 630 re-locks the stream and the dropout happens, right during the THX (or studio) audio cue! Totally ruins the "theater-like" experience for my guests (more so for me ;) ).

The audio dropout/delay also is pronounced when changing channels on my DTC100 HD receiver via the TOSlink connection while changing from one HD channel (DD2.0 or DD5.1) to another, where my prior 3 year old Pioneer 26TX (and current 812) had zero delay when changing OTA digital channels.

It's a shame that high end, quality products like the 630 fail to get such "basics" right, when any value-priced receiver from the Best Buys of the world instantly lock onto any audio bitstream, with no drop outs (like the Pioneer 812 in my den).

My only other peeve is with the main remote of the 630, While I like it's design and layout in general, and appreciate the full backlighting (a necessity in my pitch black complete light controlled theater), why do I need to press a "Light" button, which is *not electrically illuminated* (glow in the dark that fades out too quickly), to activate the backlighting? I expect the backlight to come on when *any* button is pressed, like the RCA 810 universal remote.

I expect that HK will have a firmware update for the audio dropout issue, as well as the expected DPLIIx update.

I'd also like to see plain 4 and 6 channel stereo modes added via a firmware update. (deactivating the front center, and simply duplicating the FR/FL to the SR/SL and SBR/SBL pairs, like a car audio system, without any DSP processing).

I really like this receiver. I feel like it is my first "professional" receiver, even though the 26TX was no slouch (the 30ES was too bright and had a bona-fide audio locking delay issue).

I feel the audio dropout issue could be fixed via firmware update over the RS232 port, and I plan to use a Pronto and the RCA 810 remotes anyways.

Any other suggestions for firmware upgrades and/or fixes? If we compile a list here, we could then rank them and send them of to HK tech/customer support.

[EngenZerO]

nice review, my HK 430 also has the same audio dropout issue. It does suck when you switch streams. I do hope they offer a firmware upgrade.

[beboram]

I suggest you send the review to H&K - I think they have a place for it on their web page. I am happy you like the AVR 630 - I found it to be lacking detail and attack in the highs when driving Magnepan fronts either directly or through my power amps.

[drbrousters]

The audio dropouts started with the 525 so I doubt H/K is going to fix it. It bothers me also, but I can live with it.

[Question]

I picked up an HK630

The audio drop out problem is really disturbing. If they are not going to fix this then I will have to return the 630.

[chas good]

But really how often do you change bitstreams during a movie. I set it from the DVD menu before the movie starts and never mess with it again. Looks like a problem I would never notice.

[hughh]

But really how often do you change bitstreams during a movie. I set it from the DVD menu before the movie starts and never mess with it again. Looks like a problem I would never notice.>>>

Same with me, guess that's why I haven't noticed it on dvd's either. That's a simple fix. Now, when changing channels, it's quite noticible.
The dropouts occur when the 630 changes from DD to DPLII, or any other format.

[Rgb]

Originally posted by chas good
But really how often do you change bitstreams during a movie. I set it from the DVD menu before the movie starts and never mess with it again. Looks like a problem I would never notice.

Even setting the audio stream from the DVD Title menu, you will get a significant dropout during the THX logo or studio logo- their respective audio cue/trademark is interrupted by the dropout. If your goal is to achieve a theater-like experience (commercial theaters with defective audio equipment notwithstanding ;) ), then the audio decoding/detection dropout issue is VERY significant, particularly in light of all the bargain Circiut City/ Best Buy Pioneer, Yamaha, and Sony receivers that have no audio dropout issue.

Second, mentioned several times above, when you change channels on a HDTV/sat box, feeding the 630 via a TOSlink cable, you will get a significant dropout EVERY TIME YOU CHANGE CHANNEL! Last night, I was switching between Leno and ABC on my DTC100, connected with TOSlink to the 630. Using the "Go Back" button to toggle between OTA ATSC stations, when the next channel came up, you would hear it immediately for about a second or two, then the audio drops out (mutes) for about 2 seconds, then comes back.

Well, if I can hear the new channel immediately (as soon as the DTC100 tunes it, which has its own, known delay), WHY THE HECK IS THERE A DROPOUT!? This means that the 630 immediately starts decoding the new incoming stream, but the KNUCKLEHEADS that wrote the AVR630's firmware NEVER BOTHERED TO TRY THEIR PRODUCT in a real-world test (I mean, come on, just play a DVD from the menu or change channels on a Dolby Digital set top box tuner). Something in their algorithm causes the data stream or circuits in the 630 to mute or drop data during the stream lock. Even if they had done a simple user-style test, I can't believe they would find this acceptable for a product designed for the higher-end consumer and dedicated theater rooms.

I still stand by all the positives on this unit, and if you are interested in audio quality, build quality, power, the quad crossovers, industrial design, or its other redeeming features, please audition a 630.

But please bug the heck out of HK to fix this bug...

[kdgrayson]

Originally posted by chas good
But really how often do you change bitstreams during a movie. I set it from the DVD menu before the movie starts and never mess with it again. Looks like a problem I would never notice.

Based on using a HK325 (that I returned for unrelated problems) every DVD layer change is a change in bitstream. On poorly authored DVD's with a layer change in the middle of dialogue the ~two second delay was extremly irritating. I would estimate my current Onkyo has an ~.2 sec delay.

[nightfly85]

I am a 4 day old owner of a 630. And yes the audio dropouts occur on mine as well. As others have said, this makes channel surfing less smooth and somewhat troublesome.

I have noticed while surfing on HDTV OTA on a Samsung 165, moving from DD ecoded channel to DD encoded channel had no dropout. But moving to/from 5.1 to 2.0 certainly did.

And like you say: audio comes up, mutes, and comes back up. I hope it is fixable in firmware, but it may not. Since the 525 has been out for awhile and it also had the problem, you'd think that they would have fixed it in the 630 and 430 units.

Maybe they don't know...

[Rgb]

Please use this link to submit your feedback and request a fix (hardware or firmware) for this issue direct to HK:

http://www.harmankardon.com/product_support/interstitial.asp?stype=feedback

I just submitted a cleaned up and abbreviated version of my review above, with emphasis on the audio dropout issue.

[dchan1212]

Hi Guys,

I e-mailed HK for the exact same issue on my 630 and this was the reply I got back.....


Hi David,

This split second delay is normal for the AVR630. The unit continuously
monitors the digital stream to make sure it's in the right processing mode.
It takes a split second to lock on to a new signal. Once there is a break
or change it will automatically detect and switch between PCM, DTS, DOLBY
DIGITAL modes and set the DSP. This can't be upgraded and the delay actually
mutes harmful sounds and noises from certain digital sources that abruptly
drop signal or don't transition cleanly between signal changes and pauses. I
hope this helps. Enjoy a Happy New Year.

Sincerely,

Harold Kevelos
Internet Support Specialist


I don't buy the logic behind the audio drop outs. My cheap Sony STR-835 that costed $300 didn't have any issues. I think everyone here needs to be more vocal so that they may actually consider a firmware patch.

[Sevenfeet]

I've always wondered why HK's consumer receivers have this "feature". I've tried seen lots of other receivers and I can't remember many (or any) doing this, especially in the price class of the 630. Even stranger is that I tested a H/K DPR1001 recently which *didn't* do this. I can maybe understand the previous generation having this issue. But when the DPR1001 came out, I expected this problem to be resolved and it was, at least with that model. Why it's reappeared with the 630/430 is a mystery.

[JeffGrimes]

HK is "known" for the delayed signal acquisition...an attribute that is "normal" as indicated by the HK rep.

I own the 7200, and while I agree its irritating, I just hit the Chapter rewind immediately, and get the full effect of THX sounds, etc. Sometimes have to do the same for CD's...but only if I care aout that first song, introduction. Changing channels on my DirectTivo unit is NEVER a problem, but then, everthing I watch is Stereo...not DD5.1

Whats being described here is different. Mine never plays any sound before dropping out. my experience is a delay, not a drop-out. I'd say, based on what I'm hearing that this is a Bug...maybe an attempt to "fix" the delay, but not fully tested???

I'd email HK back...and explain that your problem is not a DELAY...but a DROP OUT...Make that clear, they may be missing your point, becuase their tired of hearing about the dman delay!!!

[Rgb]

Originally posted by JeffGrimes


I'd email HK back...and explain that your problem is not a DELAY...but a DROP OUT...Make that clear, they may be missing your point, becuase their tired of hearing about the dman delay!!!

This is exactly what I've been trying to say here (perhaps not so clearly ;) ).

The issue with thte HK AVR630 is NOT a DELAY in detecting a bitstream, it is a DROPOUT AFTER the bitstream is detected!

And the dropout is not a "split second" per the HK support repsonse above, but 2 or more seconds!

The HK support response above is RIDICULOUS in light of the $150 KLH receivers at BEst BUy that immediately lock and have no drop outs after audio lock! Not to mention the many many other models from Sony, Pioneer (X11 or x12 line, even the old 508 or 509), Yamaha, JVC, Onkyo, etc that have no dropouts.

[bubbawilly]

I agree with Jeff (that H/K is known for audio delays, although I don't agree that it is acceptable). I had a 630 for about 3-days before returning it for this 'defect.' When I described this "drop-out" (read-not delay), the phone support rep offered that he was not aware of this as a known issue, and that it could be a "bad digital board."

I agree with some others, in that when a $199 consumer Sony, JVC, or Daewoo can present any audio transition without drop-out or delay, then this is entirely unacceptable in a $1200 receiver. Heck, I bought a $100 Norcent system for my kids that transitions between audio bitstreams flawlessly!!! When that DTS trailer starts quietly, then stops, and then starts again at full volume, it is far more than just irritating.

Call H/K. Don't email them.

[tom_mack]

I returned a H/K 525 due to the annoying dropout issue. It was just too distracting!

[monster what?]

I don't own one of these receivers (yet), but I would suggest that someone post a link to this thread on the Harman Kardan feedback site so that their customer service can get a broad view of this problem, in case they really are clueless about it. The especially troubling post for me was the one concerning layer switching on a DVD. I can see that a reasonable work-around exists for most other situations, but the layer switching would suck bad!

[EngenZerO]

this is the reply I got back, looks like our chiming back has worked.

Hi Asfand,

Thanks for your inquiry. We have been made aware of the issue with the
firmware operation and we are looking into this very diligently. Since the
unit was very recently release we are hoping to offer a solution very soon
on the matter. In the meantime if you don't mind, could you forward me the
serial number of your unit.


Best Regards,
Ed Carter, Jr.
Web Support Specialist, JBL / Infinity/ HK


P.S. If responding back, please include previous correspondences.

Thank You.

I hope they resolve this.

[EngenZerO]

to be honest, as a Software Engineering Student. Its just a problem with their switching algorithm. Its a poor implementation of real-time programming (it just needs optimzed or probably re-done). It should be easy and not that complicated.

[Rgb]

Great news, EngenZero!

I also received a similar email reply from Ed Carter at HK!

I plan to forward the serial number of my 630 to HK tonight after work.

Good to know that the feedback process and these forums can work (assuming they follow through and provide a fix for the audio dropout issue).

In my reply, I will add a link to this thread.

I suggest all other interested parties (current and potential AVR630 owners) do the same.

[nightfly85]

I too got a similar reply from H/K ("... they've been made aware of the issue and would like my serial # to see if it's specific to a batch of the units or not and a firmware update to fix it is possible...").

The more folks that post a complaint to the link provided above the better off we all will be.

[sullly11]

I have been lurking around the HK 630 threads for a while and was ready to purchase my first HT receiver until I noticed the dropout issues. Now that it appears HK will be fixing the issue, I'm considering the unit to pair with my Rocket ELTs.

Three questions for the experts: 1) Once HK identifies the issue, any idea how unshipped units get fixed (i.e, will I need to futz with loading a firmware upgrade or will it be factory installed) 2) Any estimate of how long before HK will fix? 3) Assuming HK fixes the dropout issue, are there any other significant issues people have had or is the 630 one of the better surround sound receivers in the $700 price range?

[Rgb]

Originally posted by sullly11

Three questions for the experts: 1) Once HK identifies the issue, any idea how unshipped units get fixed (i.e, will I need to futz with loading a firmware upgrade or will it be factory installed) 2) Any estimate of how long before HK will fix? 3) Assuming HK fixes the dropout issue, are there any other significant issues people have had or is the 630 one of the better surround sound receivers in the $700 price range?

1) Unknown. Ask HK at the feedback link above. Your inquiry concerning the dropout issue will help to spur HK actions.

2) Unknown. This thread brought the issue to light, and it appears HK just became aware of it due to our emails and web feedback. Keep checking this thread for updates.

3) Read my review and other comments on these forums. Many owners are very happy with their AVR630, and they are not sensitive to the dropout issue. I believe the AVR630 deserves a serious look for anyone in the market for a $500-$1000 receiver, particularly if sound quality, build quality, technical features (quad crossovers, Logic7, Dolby Headphone, quality amp/preamp sections) and/or industrial design matter to you.

Your inquiries bring up an interesting issue- the reluctance of people to report bad aspects of the products they purchase, for fear of losing value and/or the ability to resell the item. Several people in this thread were aware of this issue on their AVR630, but either returned the unit without reporting the issue here (unless I missed their posting ;) ), or decided to live with the issue without reporting it here.

Not to cut HK any slack on this issue, but I feel there are many out there who would buy this receiver on its many merits.

I still have mine ;).

...But I will not relent with HK until they resolve the dropout issue.

[garciab]

Rgb,

Did HK finally deliver a design where ALL video inputs can auto-sense between analog and digital signals? I know the x25 generation allowed this only for the Video2 input, iirc. Thanks.

[Rgb]

Originally posted by garciab
Rgb,

Did HK finally deliver a design where ALL video inputs can auto-sense between analog and digital signals? I know the x25 generation allowed this only for the Video2 input, iirc. Thanks.

FWIW, the AVR630 manual states, page 32, column 2, paragraph 2:

"When both a digital and an analog connection are made between a source device and the AVR, the digital input is the default. If the digital stream is not present or is interrupted, the unit will automatically switch over to the analog inputs for the selected source"

To verify this assertion, I ran tests on my AVR630 to check analog/digital auto-switching.

I used a DTC100 connected via both Toslink to Optical 2 and L/R analog audio out to Video 3 input. Of course, Video 3 is associated with Optical 2 in the AVR630 setup menu.

The DT100 is set to output a DD bitstream. It was tuned to an OTA ATSC station that transmits a DD5.1 audio stream all the time. The DTC100 outputs the DD stream via optical and the analog downmix at the same time.

I also connected my Panasonic RP82's L/R stereo outputs to the DVD L/R analog inputs on the AVR630, as well as an optical connection to Optical 1 on the AVR630. The RP82 also outputs digital streams and an analog L/R mix at the same time.

The AVR630 switched from the optical digital inputs to the associated analog inputs when I pulled the optical cables out from the back of the AVR630, and switched back to the optical inputs when I plugged them back in! I heard the digital streams first, then the analog outputs from the sources when I pulled out the optical cables (keeping each source selected during each test run, of course).

These inputs were chosen at random, so coupled with the claim in the manual, there is a high probability that all the inputs auto-switch between digital and analog connections per source, but I did not test them all.

[thedeskE]

Having owned a 520,525,7200 & now a little 125 in a small system, I agree the drop out or delay(if you will) is there. It only bothered me until I learned it was normal on the 520. By the time I had the other receivers, I may have made a mental note and compared to the previous models, but that was it.

I channel surf a bit on my HD sat, but just enough to get to something and it's over, and get very little drop out between most of my favorite channels.
As for the DVD - It just doesn't bother me any more. I watch the entire movie. A missing logo second for THX is ........well So WHAT!

A small price to pay for such a GREAT sounding amp.

Perhaps my experience with B&K receivers (which I Love) made the HK drop out `No Big Deal' for me.

I'll be buying another soon. Can't wait to hear the newest `Drop Out'

E

[M Code]

Originally posted by garciab

Did HK finally deliver a design where ALL video inputs can auto-sense between analog and digital signals? I know the x25 generation allowed this only for the Video2 input, iirc. Thanks.

The AVR 430 and 630 will do polling by source input, between the assigned digital port (optical or coaxial) and the respective analog inputs...

[NauticaX]

This sucks... the AVR that I want has to have dropout issues. :) Anything that is around the 500-700 range that is known to not have dropout issues?

[JorgeLopez11]

This sucks... the AVR that I want has to have dropout issues. Anything that is around the 500-700 range that is known to not have dropout issues?
Yes, it is a pity :(

Last october 2003 I spent some 6 hours auditioning the AVR 525 because it was the receiver I liked more, specially for its power capability and the L7 feature which I consider to be far superior to DPLII and Neo-6 working with stereo sources. But I did notice the dropout issue in the 525 and found it unacceptable.

One month later the 630 hit the shelves in the USA, but I was told this receiver would not arrive to Mexico till mid 2004. So I finally bought a Denon 3803 and am very satisfied with its performance. No dropout issues at all :)

Anyway, I still have something itching my neck. After auditioning the Denon 3803+ Rotel power amp RMB-1075 against the Pioneer 55 TX last weekend (IMO Denon+Rotel won not so easily), I'm quite sure I won't by the Rotel amp until the 7300 arrival in order to compare it against my Denon-Rotel combo, but I wish this dropout problem had been already addressed by H/K people.

[bubbawilly]

Originally posted by NauticaX
This sucks... the AVR that I want has to have dropout issues. :) Anything that is around the 500-700 range that is known to not have dropout issues?

Yes. Everything but H/K, Marantz, and the other AVR's that use Cirrus DSP's (although I've heard Outlaw has a workaround for the delays, and Rotel just plain got it right to begin with, and/or they don't use Cirrus any longer??).

So, you can look at Sony, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood, etc. A Pioneer Elite 53TX can be had in your price range, and its features and power readily match up with the AVR 630/7200. You lose Logic 7 (which is very nice), but you gain MCACC (which is also very nice), but you most certainly won't have delays or drop-outs (which is the way it should be).

thedeskE, I've never experienced a delay, let alone drop-out, with my B&K AVR307, or Ref 20 before it. Are you using a H/K DVD player? ;)

Good luck! :)

[NauticaX]

Originally posted by bubbawilly
Yes. Everything but H/K, Marantz, and the other AVR's that use Cirrus DSP's (although I've heard Outlaw has a workaround for the delays, and Rotel just plain got it right to begin with, and/or they don't use Cirrus any longer??).

So, you can look at Sony, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood, etc. A Pioneer Elite 53TX can be had in your price range, and its features and power readily match up with the AVR 630/7200. You lose Logic 7 (which is very nice), but you gain MCACC (which is also very nice), but you most certainly won't have delays or drop-outs (which is the way it should be).

thedeskE, I've never experienced a delay, let alone drop-out, with my B&K AVR307, or Ref 20 before it. Are you using a H/K DVD player? ;)

Good luck! :)

That looks good and all but I can't find anywhere how many Component inputs it has and also if it can handle 1080i signal.

[bubbawilly]

I see that. Pioneer's website has taken a nose-dive lately!

The 53TX has two assignable component inputs and one output. Pretty standard. I know they are HD compatible (min 30MHz), but I don't recall if they claim 50 or 100MHz bandwidth. I think it's 100. Someone here WILL correct me if I'm wrong. ;) Either way, they handle 1080i!

[brnagin4]

I had (yes HAD) the AVR 7200 and was extremely ticked about the digital delay that all of the HK models have had since the 525. I went throught the 525, and the 7200 and they both had it. I called them and they said that it was a bug that they won't be fixing. The other thing that bothered me was the fact that when the receiver had DTS ES activated all the time when listening to something in DTS (not ES discrete or matrix) it put the receiver into DTS+neo 6 and not DTS ES Matrix!! This also pissed me off.

I do love the sound the AVR7200 just could not live with the flaws in the design. I am now the proud owner of the NAD T773. I have found the sound to be incredible and there is no delay, and it also plays DTS ES Matrix for DTS encoded movies!!

I have found this receiver to be the simplest and one of the best sounding I have heard. For the same price I wish I would have known about it sooner.

HK you had a dedicated customer but not supporting the problems with your products and lagging behind on updates has caused you to lose me as a fan.

[Rgb]

Originally posted by M Code
The AVR 430 and 630 will do polling by source input, between the assigned digital port (optical or coaxial) and the respective analog inputs...

I think that's what I showed in the earlier post ;).

[thedeskE]

bubbawilly
I used a 305 and I remember a click(disconnect) for certain switching which bugged a lot of people until it was explained to be a protective function. Even then, it did not satisfy many.
I'm probably relating to that and not a drop out. My bad.
Like the HKs, I consider this a trivial item and considering how good both sound, a non issue.
I use a Pany RP91 player with a nice coax for the audio. It's kinda slow as well.

E

[bubbawilly]

Forgot about NAD. They use Cirrus DSP's as well.

Well, Since Rotel and NAD use Cirrus, and they don't suffer from audio delays, that proves that with proper implementation it is possible to get it right. Actually, the T7x2 NAD's suffered from audio delays. More proof that it can be remedied. Too bad H/K isn't either willing, and/or able. Otherwise pretty nice gear, but delays are unacceptable, and calling it a "feature" is unforgivable.

I know some will consider this a pretty strong statement. No offense intended! It's just that virtually every other AVR, from the high-end $4.5K AVR's, down to the dirt-cheap Samtron units sold at grocery stores, present digital audio without delays. It is done, so it can be done! H/K, just do it!! We know that we can have our cake, and eat it too!!!

Until you refuse to accept this, like many started to refuse to accept DVD players with the dreaded "chroma bug," nothing will be improved.

I'm done now!

[cosgeo]

Here's what HK support sent back to me about the drop out issue :-

"Thanks for your inquiry. The reason for the drop out/pause in the audio is
that the audio buffer mutes for a second or 2 before the DAC's lock on to
the next surround mode you choose. This prevents you from experiencing loud
spikes of digital noise while making the change."

I too love my 630 but find this drop out to be a real pain in my whoopsie when it happens. See, when this drop out happens whilst watching a movie it also triggers the on screen display of the surround mode to appear. I hate that. I'm worried that HK wont be doing any upgrades whatsoever for the 630 and that this RS 232 port for upgrading was just a good selling point for them. They probably have bigger plans for the new 7300. We shall see what happens boys.........

[JorgeLopez11]

"Thanks for your inquiry. The reason for the drop out/pause in the audio is that the audio buffer mutes for a second or 2 before the DAC's lock on to the next surround mode you choose. This prevents you from experiencing loud spikes of digital noise while making the change."
:eek: Based on this answer, it seems to me that we´ll have to forget the 7300 arrival?:(

[NauticaX]

Anyone know if the Pioneer 53TX Elite has 100mhz bandwidth rating for component inputs? If its 100 then I am getting one as soon as I find a good price :)

[nightfly85]

Doesn't look like we should hold our breath on a fix.

"Good evening and thank you for this information. We have created
a
quality report, which alerts the engineers to a potential problem. If
you
are still able to exchange the unit through your dealer, I would
recommend
doing so, so as to not limit your options."

This is after I sent them my serial # on the unit. I won't be returning it as that time period has passed and I am generally happy with the unit although I may eventually (especially if I move into a larger room) with a seperate multi-channel amp.

[Rgb]

Originally posted by kdgrayson
Based on using a HK325 (that I returned for unrelated problems) every DVD layer change is a change in bitstream. On poorly authored DVD's with a layer change in the middle of dialogue the ~two second delay was extremly irritating. I would estimate my current Onkyo has an ~.2 sec delay.

Just for the record, I played several movies (see first post in this thread) from a Panasonic Rp82 via Toslink to the AVR630, and there was no audio dropout during a layer change.

[nightfly85]

I too have never witnessed a delay on layer changes. Once the initial hic-up, all DVDs play without any delays or pauses. I would think any problems here would largely be with the DVD players. For instance, many higher end DVD players have large memory buffers to prevent delays on layer changes.

[yblocgerg]

hey guys, I know I'm new regestered member here, but I have been lurking around for ages. This email is in responce to the audio issue on the AVR 430, thought it would interest a few as it gives us some hope...

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the reply. I spoke to the manager of product engineering for the
receivers and he explained that they have been working on the revision to
tighten the time between pauses. However, because of the change in the new
disc being able to allow a customer to switch between the surround modes on
the fly via the audio button on the dvd player this is actually necessary.
Reason being is to prevent digital noise from leaking through and possibly
damaging your loudspeakers.

Anyway, there will be a software upgrade very soon...hopefully within the
next month. It will be available through the website...however in what form
I do not know at this time.

Stay tuned.


Best Regards,
Ed Carter, Jr.
Web Support Specialist, JBL / Infinity/ HK

[hughh]

Just for the record, I played several movies (see first post in this thread) from a Panasonic Rp82 via Toslink to the AVR630, and there was no audio dropout during a layer change.>>>

Same player/cable combo...same results!

[brnagin4]

The delay is not in the layer change. It is changing the audio signal completely(i.e. from DD to DTS to DD French. . .) the layer changes are normal.

[cosgeo]

Another reply from HK support today :-

Something will be done...please stay tuned...and thanks for your patience.

Best Regards,
Ed Carter, Jr.
Web Support Specialist, JBL / Infinity/ HK

[drbrousters]

I have owned a 520 and now own a 525. Both have had the problem. While I find it annoying, it isn't what I would consider an indication of a major problem or a covert problem that will eventually reveal itself as something more. It's just an irritation.
I listened to a Denon 3803 that I considered as a replacement. I will stay with H/K. The way they do music and the "feel" of power in their amps is something I would rather not live without. I can overlook a minor annoyance (and "rewind" the intro's if I want to hear them). The warmth and relative power of their amps more than make up for this problem.

[Rgb]

Great news. cosgeo!

Looks like we CAN make a difference!

To reiterate the issue, it is clear that the AVR630 instantly locks onto the bitstream, but then drops out for ~2 seconds *after* the bitstream is detected.

There could be a lot of simple ways to fix this in the bitstream detection and/or processing mode switching algorithm, such as allowing the user to "hard-lock" the processing mode, i.e let the receiver auto-detect bitstream data *type* (DD , PCM, DTS, MP3, etc), but have the *processing mode* locked-in by the user (Logic 7, DPLII, Neo6, etc).

The problem in the receiver's logic that's causing the dropout appears to be that the AVR630 detects bitstream data codec type (PCM, DD, DTS...), THEN does switching logic to match a post processing mode to that codec type (i.e re-assigning Neo6, or DPLII, or other processing mode).

The AVR630 ought to simply default to the last processing mode for that codec type for that input PRIOR TO bitstream detection, rather than re-establising the processing mode, thereby causing the dropout...there should be no reason for the receiver to atempt to change processing modes during bitstream interruptions (changing STB channels, changing audio streams on a DVD, etc).

My engineering opinion $0.02 ... ;)

[cosgeo]

It is great news. I'm happy that people at HK are listening to their customers and loyal fans. Even so guys, if you have not yet voiced your concerns about your reciever to HK support then please do so as we all need to stick together on this one. Maybe we can get upgrades to other stuff like DPLIIxx as well......if ya don't ask then ya don't get.........

[sullly11]

Cosgeo-good point, Also, people should spread the message on any other AV forums to which they subscribe. I'm waiting until I hear how HK fixes the problem before I purchase the 630 but I am anxious to get my new receiver. The more we press, the quicker resolution may come.

Sul

[drbrousters]

"I'm waiting until I hear how HK fixes the problem before I purchase the 630 but I am anxious to get my new receiver."

As has been stated, "Don't hold your breath."
This problem has been going on for at least 3 generations of this receiver.

I would agree with the sentiment that HK needs to hear from people about it, but, just because it's fixable, doesn't mean it will be fixed. It is possible that fixing it would cause other problems that HK feels are more disturbing than this one...Just a thought.

[sullly11]

"As has been stated, Don't hold your breath."

Based on the responses posted above from Ed Carter at HK support, it appears that HK is promising a solution.

Per Ed Carter " Anyway, there will be a software upgrade very soon...hopefully within the next month. It will be available through the website...however in what form I do not know at this time."

Has HK not followed through on related promises/fixes in the past or can we expect a fix as promised by HK support? I hate to spend $750 on an AV receiver with the annoying drop out issue even if its other features are good.

[brnagin4]

Having been an HK owner for the last few years up until recently they have NEVER upgraded anything that was upgradeable. They could have fixed the AVR 7200 quickly but still have done nothing to solve the problems with that receiver.

I do hope that they keep their word as I will quickly re-join the ranks of an HK Fanatic!! But, my hopes are low for follow through. Give me a date when it will be fixed and then I will believe you.

[cosgeo]

Have you guys also emailed your posts to HK to let them know how you feel???

[cosgeo]

I get the audio dropout during a layer change as well as right at the beginning of a DVD..As far as the layer change dropout goes I'm really not sure whether it's the 630 or my Sony DVD player. I'm considering buying another DVD player just so that I can test that particular issue out. I'll let ya know.

[sks123]

brnagin4
what "problems with the 7200" are you referring to? please elaborate. thanks

[brnagin4]

Read my posts from earlier. I have had consistent drop outs on the audio during digital changeovers. I have had Stutering when pausing a movie and replaying while listening to it in DTS. I have been through the 520,525, and 7200 and have had the dts problem in all have only had the dropouts in the 525 up.

[Count Xavier]

Ok...to me, the audio drop out IS a MAJOR issue with my 7200. Watching HDTV is almost unbearable with commercials. When the commercials come on, it will switch to ProLogic....commercials off, it switches back to DD EX! The audio drop out follows the entire way. Annoying. I received this message back from HK.....

" I finally have an answer for you. The reason for the drop out/pause in the audio is that the audio buffer mutes for a second or 2 before the DAC's lock on to the next surround mode you choose. This prevents you from experiencing loud spikes of digital noise while making the change. Thus, the muted pause is normal.

Sincerely,
James Pagano
Internet Support Specialist"


I wasn't lucky enough to get the Ed Carter message about a new download coming...Gee, I wonder why...Probably because we won't see it for a LONG time!!

Any other ideas??

[jambon]

What I seem to be hearing is that the dropout is not a very big deal if you don't have HDTV, but a major, major defect if you do. I really wanted a 7200, for the 2-channel sound of HK, but I just can't bring myself to pay that much for a product that will not be able to capably handle HDTV when I make that jump. I'm depressed really, because as ugly as the 7200 is, it seems miles ahead of anything else I can find in terms of 2-channel sound.

Is there no way to disable the auto-switching of digital modes? That way, if you were watching HDTV and noticed it droping out during commercials, you could just force it to stay in the processing mode you knew the program was in and to hell with the commercials. Not an elegant solution, but at least you could make it through a show without shooting your receiver.

[Count Xavier]

I haven't been able to find a way to LOCK in the signal and disable the auto sensing for signal. I had even asked H/K tech support for a method, but that had just been glossed over..."No problem found!"

If anyone knows of a way of doing this, please let us all know..It wouldn't be a permanent solution, but at least it would make watching HDTV local channels bearable.

[Rgb]

Just a reminder to everyone who has been, is, or wants be to a HK receiver owner- be sure to voice your concern over the dropout issue on the web email feedback page at the HK site:

http://www.harmankardon.com/product_support/interstitial.asp?stype=feedback

[Sounds Simple]

I have the 630 on my shortlist of receivers so contacted HK about this problem as the potential for an upgrade for DPLIIx. I received the following response:

"Hi Bob,

Thanks for your inquiry to us. Here are the answers to your below questions.

1- The dropout is actually a long pause that will be dramatically shortened
when the upgrade for the 430 / 630 is released. At this time we do not have
a release date for you...Please check our website for update information.

2- All current AVR630's that are shipping do not support DPLIIx.


Best Regards,
Ed Carter, Jr.
Web Support Specialist, JBL / Infinity/ HK


P.S. If responding back, please include previous correspondences.

Thank You"

I am somewhat encouraged by the first response but dismayed by the latter since posts here and elsewhere seem to indicate that a DPLIIx upgrade via download would be available for receivers with a RS232 port.

Then I started reading the manual more closely and realized that there seems to be no ability to set the PLII parameters (center width, panorama and dimension). Whether or not I would even use these is not significant but (IMO) there PLII implementation is incomplete. I come from a computer background and I see things as either compliant or not - enhance all you want but get the basics covered before throwing that label on there.

At this point, I'm thinking that I will see what the Denon 3805 has to offer.

Bob

[bubbawilly]

The Cirrus DSP in the 630 is DPLIIx capable. http://www.cirrus.com/en/press/releases/P371.html

It may not have been implemented in the chips when H/K started building the 630, but if you check deeper into the Cirrus website, they clearly state that the DSP can be upgraded. Just check the DSP CS49400 family specs that the news release refers to. H/K must not have built in an upgrade interface, and as such, I wouldn't hold my breath that they will finally correct the audio delay issue that has plagued their receivers for at least three generations now. :(

I'm not sure how they could 'fix' the DSP signal delay (now even "longer delay"), without also having the ability to upgrade the DSP. Maybe they simply are not willing to pay the licensing fees to offer the latter.

[M Code]

Originally posted by bubbawilly
The Cirrus DSP in the 630 is DPLIIx capable. http://www.cirrus.com/en/press/releases/P371.html

It may not have been implemented in the chips when H/K started building the 630, but if you check deeper into the Cirrus website, they clearly state that the DSP can be upgraded. Just check the DSP CS49300 family specs that the news release refers to. H/K must not have built in an upgrade interface, and as such, I wouldn't hold my breath that they will finally correct the audio delay issue that has plagued their receivers for at least three generations now. :(

I'm not sure how they could 'fix' the DSP signal delay (now even "longer delay"), without also having the ability to upgrade the DSP. Maybe they simply are not willing to pay the licensing fees to offer the latter.

You are confusing certain issues the AVR 430/630 use the CS 494xx DSP
not the CS 493xx as you stated. Regarding DPL2x this was introduced by Dolby in September and the code was certified in November, since the AVR 630 started production in August IMHO it would seem impossible to include code that is certified 90 days later into mass production.. :confused:
Since HK has confirmed that the 430/630 is upgradeable, I would bet that they follow through... HK would not have the market position they have if they didn't hold to their commitments, but since they said February maybe one should at least wait till then before they start concluding something else.. :)

[bubbawilly]

M Code,
I should have known that you would come to H/K's 'defense.' ;)
I edited my typo above, and for the record, I am not confused (on this subject, anyway). Typo's happen! :)

As I clearly stated, DPLIIx "may not have been implemented" when the 630 started production, but the chip IS capable of being upgraded.

And, I for one will not hold my breath.

BTW, I'm not just referring to an upgrade to DPLIIx. Rather, I'm referring to an upgrade that allows H/K's receivers to perform up to the industry standard of no audio dropouts or delays, as set by top-notch brands like KLH and Samtron. No winking faces here. I feel that it is entirely unacceptable H/K is telling their customers that the delays are a feature, protecting them from awful noise that could occur during bitstream changes. C'mon!

But then, P.T. Barnum had a point.

(Spell-checked, but not typo-checked)

[Sounds Simple]

M Code-

I will give HK the benefit of the doubt that they intend to improve the audio dropouts. But the answer to my query about an upgrade to DPLIIx was:

"2- All current AVR630's that are shipping do not support DPLIIx."

While this does not say they will not provide such an upgrade, it certainly is not encouraging. HK has made an issue of upgradabilty via their RS232 port but they are were unwilling to clarify for me if an upgrade to DPLIIx will be available. This is clearly a marketing dodge that suggests they are not committed to such an upgrade.

When I started looking for a receiver, the 630 was the leading candidate but as time goes on I find that there are a number of issues which are not clearly addressed. It dismays me because I like both the sound and the appearance of this unit.

Can you confirm or correct my observation that the 630 does not support the DPLII parameters (center width, panorama and dimension). If they are unavailable, then it seems to me that their DPLII support is lacking as well.

Bob

[M Code]

Originally posted by bubbawilly
M Code,
I should have known that you would come to H/K's 'defense.' ;)
I edited my typo above, and for the record, I am not confused (on this subject, anyway). Typo's happen! :)

As I clearly stated, DPLIIx "may not have been implemented" when the 630 started production, but the chip IS capable of being upgraded.

And, I for one will not hold my breath.


HK said February, if they fail to meet this then I would say bash away..


BTW, I'm not just referring to an upgrade to DPLIIx. Rather, I'm referring to an upgrade that allows H/K's receivers to perform up to the industry standard of no audio dropouts or delays, as set by top-notch brands like KLH and Samtron. No winking faces here. I feel that it is entirely unacceptable H/K is telling their customers that the delays are a feature, protecting them from awful noise that could occur during bitstream changes. C'mon!


Have you checked some of the competition..
A friend brought over his Yamaha 2400 and we compared the DSP start time to my AVR 630 while connecting my Sony HD 200 Direct SAT tuner.. The 2400 took about 3 1/2 seconds to output a channel encoded with Dolby 5.1 and the AVR 630 took about 4 seconds, so yes I concede the Yamaha is slightly faster.. by a slight amount.
But what we found out is that when changing channels on the SAT tuner that it took the SAT tuner about 2 1/2 seconds to output the digital stream to the AVR..
So the longest part of the delay (3 1/2-4 seconds) is caused by the SAT tuner not the AVR..

Now do you really consider Samtron and KLH top notch brands.. :)

[M Code]

Originally posted by Sounds Simple
M Code-

I will give HK the benefit of the doubt that they intend to improve the audio dropouts. But the answer to my query about an upgrade to DPLIIx was:

"2- All current AVR630's that are shipping do not support DPLIIx."

While this does not say they will not provide such an upgrade, it certainly is not encouraging. HK has made an issue of upgradabilty via their RS232 port but they are were unwilling to clarify for me if an upgrade to DPLIIx will be available. This is clearly a marketing dodge that suggests they are not committed to such an upgrade.


Very true.. today the AVR 430 and AVR 630 does not include DPLIIx but @ WCES 2004 the HK engineer stated very clearly they will have the upgrade would be released in February...
As mentioned previously before I comment further I will wait till February..
But since the new models DPR 2005 and AVR 7300 @ WCES all had DPLIIx and use the same DSP as the AVR 430/630 I think they will deliver..



Can you confirm or correct my observation that the 630 does not support the DPLII parameters (center width, panorama and dimension). If they are unavailable, then it seems to me that their DPLII support is lacking as well.


The DPR 2005 and AVR 7300 @ the WCES with DPLIIx, did have the center width, panorama and dimension controls so I would assume these will be included....

[Sounds Simple]

M Code-

Thanks for the info. I keep hearing there will/will not be an upgrade for the 630 on various forums. I was somewhat frustrated with the response I got from HK but I'll reserve judgment till February.

I'm not going to make a purchase decision until I get to hear the Denon 3805.

Bob

[Rgb]

I suspect that HK is playing it safe and under-promising and (hopefully) will over-deliver.

Even if they miss the month of February, I don't want to rush them on software upgrades- I don't want my receiver to become another beta testing ground like my HTPC's...

[maui2k4]

I had the unfortunate situation of having to return my recently purchased AVR-430. I bought it from OneCall (had to pay to ship it back) and the problem I had was that when I would switch audio sources (XBOX to DVD to Cable then back to DVD) the sound would stop working on all audio sources and I would have to power down the reveiver. I called HK and they said that I should do microprocessor reboot (press and hold the tone button while in stand-by). That worked for a short while (solved DTS not working) but it did not solve the overall problem. When the receiver would stop sending sound to the speakers I would see the word "unlock" then no sound followed by the correct signal type displayed (DTS, Dolby Digital, etc...) but no sound.

I really like the AVR-430, but I am not sure whether or not I got a bad receiver or they just have firmware issues with this new receiver that they have yet to work out. Maybe I should just wait before trying out another 430. Any other suggestions? Has anyone else experienced the problem I have seen???

[kchdtv]

Bad news from Harman Kardon--older receivers such as the AVR7200, 525, etc. will not be getting any kind of fix for this problem. Got this response today:
--
We are aware of the forum postings for all of our products. While it is possible that there may be a remedy released for the AVR430 and AVR630, It does not look like there will be a remedy for the older AVR receivers and the AVR7200 at this time due to their design. Once again, this is a muting circuit that engages while the receiver identifies the type of signal being received and loads the decoding software. Without the muting circuit, you would hear the random noise of the process.

Sincerely,
James Pagano
Internet Support Specialist

[jambon]

So how do they plan to avoid the "random noise of the process" in the upgrade of the 430/630?

[Dennis Gardner]

I think dropout may be a reason that we see so many refurbed/returned units on the market from HK. I guess I have alot of you to thank for the great 1/3 of retail I got on my 7200 this past fall. The dropout is there, but not a deal-breaker for me. My response from HK on this was that it is a normal feature that won't be addressed.

HDTV channel surfing would make this issue much more annoying.

DG

[Squirrel God]

The new HK range has just hit the UK here and I was feeling very drawn to them until I discovered this thread!

As we don't have HDTV yet over here, I could happily live with the dropout when switching between bitstreams.

What I couldn't live with is a serious 2-3 second dropout during the layer change.

My current receiver delivers a very brief cut out of the audio when the layer change takes place but it's like, a fraction of a second.

Does this issue with the Harman Kardon definitely NOT affect the layer change (other than a split-second dropout)? If it takes 2-3 seconds to bring back the audio every time there is a layer change, then I will be going out of my mind!

It's a shame these receivers also don't have DPLIIx :(

[NauticaX]

No... the issue is not with layer change but the change in bitstream.

[Squirrel God]

Originally posted by NauticaX
No... the issue is not with layer change but the change in bitstream.
Thanks. In that case, they are definitely still on my shortlist :)

[sks123]

I recently returned the 630 and upgraded to the 7200. Personally, the drop out issue doesn't bother me as much as the hiss I was getting from my front and cc speakers with the 630 - have others noticed a hiss? Now the hiss is totally gone :-) . For music, I still prefer HK's stereo sound.

[jambon]

The 2-channel sound of the HK is untouchable in my opinion when compared to the other well known brands. However, as one who aspires to HDTV in the future, the dropout will be a dealbreaker for me unless it can be addressed in a firmware update. If not, I may be forced to eat the 200-400 dollar upcharge and go with Rotel/NAD.

[Rgb]

Originally posted by kchdtv
Bad news from Harman Kardon--older receivers such as the AVR7200, 525, etc. will not be getting any kind of fix for this problem. Got this response today:
--
We are aware of the forum postings for all of our products. While it is possible that there may be a remedy released for the AVR430 and AVR630, It does not look like there will be a remedy for the older AVR receivers and the AVR7200 at this time due to their design. Once again, this is a muting circuit that engages while the receiver identifies the type of signal being received and loads the decoding software. Without the muting circuit, you would hear the random noise of the process.

Sincerely,
James Pagano
Internet Support Specialist

I don't really like the sound of "it is possible" and "may be a remedy" :(. Again, it could be a policy of under-promising.

Mr. Pagano's comments describing the audio bitstream switching/detection algorithm further demonstrates that (A) HK may not fully understand the functional issue involved and (B) a fix ought to be possible in firmware.

The comment "this is a muting circuit that engages while the receiver identifies the type of signal being received" indicates that HK believes the issue is related to bitstream detection. Well, I immediately hear the audio after a bitstream change. However, the audio mutes as the AVR630 "loads the decoding software"- AFTER the bitstream starts decoding! i.e. you can HEAR the DD/DTS bitstream immediately, which REQUIRES that the AVR630 is DECODING it!

The fix seems clear- allow the user to defeat stream auto-detect and lock into DD/DTS and/or enable the user to lock processing mode (DPLII/ L7/ Neo6, etc). The problem appears to be processing mode (DPLII/L7/Neo6) software load, not bitstream data type (PCM/DD/DTS) detection speed.

[cosgeo]

Are you guys still checking in with HK support about upgrades or has everyone forgotten about the issues your reciever has???

In my last communication with them I was told it would be at least another month, which would be sometime in March.

[cosgeo]

Are you guys still checking in with HK support about upgrades or has everyone forgotten about the issues your reciever has???

In my last communication with them I was told it would be at least another month, which would be sometime in March.

[thedeskE]

It would be nice to get the upgrade, but I'm not holding my breath.
March could mean May. You know how it is with these upgrades. Remember how B&K took over a year to catch up with PL2, and that was for a flagship receiver.
Still, Harman is a good company - could happen?
E

[cosgeo]

I just hope that if people keep on HK's back then they might be quicker about it, hopefully...maybe???

[Rgb]

Thanks for the updates, cosgeo.

Yes, we should keep reminding (hounding?) HK until a firmware fix is released.

Hopefully, others will report any feedback from HK here.

[Question]

I haven't had much luck communicating with HK.

I will give them another month or 2 and if they haven't fixed the problem I will unload my receiver on ebay and probably never buy another of their products.

[cosgeo]

Still no updates :(

[RichDDavis]

ACK! The babysitter tried to turn on the 630 by squeezing the LCD display as if it were a button, and pushed so hard they trashed the display.

So I called H/K and they are sending a free replacement :D

That's the good. While I was on the phone, I asked about the DPLIIx update. I don't know how the dropout issue is to be resolved, and frankly, it is not a big issue to me, but there is (supposedly) DEFINITELY a IIx upgrade. The rep said it is in final testing and should be released within a month's time. I asked if it were user upgradible, and he said "Yes, well maybe". Apparently people will be able to send the receiver if they cannot deal with computers (I forget such beings exist), but the rest of us ought to be able to do this on our own.

Time will tell, but there was no ambiguity about the IIx for this unit.

[vcody]

FWIW, I spoke with H/K technical support today and they said they would not provide a DPLIIx upgrade for the 630, but instead recommended the 7300.

[cosgeo]

I thought someone said that HK support had told them they were going to provide this upgrade for the 630.

[Lyle O]

I was interested in the 630 reciever and e-mailed HK tech support about the audio dropout issue and DPL IIx. The reply is below. It sure sounds to me like they were planning on adding DPLIIx.


Hi Jeff,


Thanks for your inquiry to us. Digital dropout is actually a mute pause that
only occurs when some customers change the digital surround mode from their
DVD player on the fly. If you were to choose the surround mode you wish to
watch a movie in from the DVD movies menu and play that mode all the way
through, there is absolutely no pause at all. We will be addressing this
issue in a upcoming software upgrade that will be released in the next month
or so.


DPLIIx will also be a software upgrade soon. At this time is has not been
determined the form of how the upgrade will be for the customer...However,
more than likely it will be a customer friendly upgrade.



Best Regards,
Ed Carter, Jr.
Web Support Specialist, JBL / Infinity/ HK

[vcody]

So the answer apparently depends on who you speak to. I checked again and was told "at some point" an upgrade would be available but the rep was unable to specify when, how it would be delivered or how much if anything it would cost.

[dkangel]

Hello all,
I just wanted to add to this string. Not taking sides here, just my .02$
I have been reading comments on it taking a while to come up with a fix, if any, is needed. I saw a comment regarding B&K having taking almost a year...indications of keeping on HK about this... etc...
Do you understand what is involved in trying to determine if a software revision is required or how long it takes to come up with one and have it fully tested to be sure it does not effect any other operation of the unit?

It would defeat the purpose if a revision was "rushed" only to have it change operation on another section of the receiver, requiring yet another revsion.

Same for DPLIIx... Are there not enough surround modes already on the reciever to keep you occupied? Do we need another surround mode? Honestly how many of us use every surround mode every time we use the unit? Who uses Hall 1 or 2 every day? and with what source?

To me it would be more important to work on devolping the HD tuner system. ( remember there's an upgrade slot on the AVR 630/430) or possible XM/Sirrus setup. Now these would be more usefull then another surround mode.

[CruelInventions]

stop making sense.

[cosgeo]

LOL

The dropout is a little annoying, at times, though. I guess we all just want our possessions to be perfect or as near to.

[M Code]

Originally posted by dkangel
To me it would be more important to work on devolping the HD tuner system. ( remember there's an upgrade slot on the AVR 630/430) or possible XM/Sirrus setup. Now these would be more usefull then another surround mode.

You may not be aware...
@ WCES 2004 in January, in Las Vegas. Harman/Kardon demonstrated working AVRs with HD Radio and also XM Satellite broadcasting for stereo audio and 5.1 as well. It seems that they are still evaluating the marketing impact and timing for each..
They both sounded superb.

[rlinx5]

I have an HK AVR-525 and have become use to the dropout most if the time as I can start a CD over and play it from the beginning. But what I find most annoying is if there is dialog or music directly after a layer change on a DVD the drop-out really messes up the flow of the movie. Wish HK will fix this problem before I ever upgrade to another HK.

[barhoram]

7200 owner who has never seen the dropout during a layer change....??

[cosgeo]

The dropout during a layer change does occur.....with certain DVD players. Some make the change faster then others, if it's quick then the dropout does not occur.

[edaly]

Just got a 7200 and I don't get any dropout on a layer change with my Panasonic RP-91. I definitely get it at the start of a movie, and at the start of a CD.

I wish HK would pick up the ball on this and release an RS232 update (why do mfrs keep suckering us into thinking they're gonna use these ports for updates and then never releasing any??). Of course I'm not holding my breath.. I knew the 7200 had the muting problem when I bought it, but for the money it is still a good deal.


edaly

[cosgeo]

I may be wrong but I don't think that the RS232 port on the 7200 is able to accept software updates.

[M Code]

Originally posted by cosgeo
I may be wrong but I don't think that the RS232 port on the 7200 is able to accept software updates.

CORRECTO..
For the AVR 7200 like the AVR 325 and AVR 525, the RS 232 is for function control only. On the new/latest 2004 AVRs such as AVR 430, AVR 630, AVR 7300, DPR 1005 and DPR 2005 their RS 232 port can be used for function control and software upgrades..

[cosgeo]

Anyone had a chance to read up on the new HK DVD players???
I see the DVD 31 has DVD-A but no SACD available.

[cosgeo]

Hey M-Code. Do you still have the 630?

[M Code]

Originally posted by cosgeo
Hey M-Code. Do you still have the 630?

YES..
I still have the AVR 630 but it will be pulled out of the system soon...
As I am anxiously waiting for the AVR 7300.. :)

[SteveSatch]

I've never heard anyone say the start of a CD gets a drop/delay. I just tought it was when it changed audio formats (2.0 to 5.1). When would that apply to a CD?

[Will-san]

As I am anxiously waiting for the AVR 7300..

I am too. I emailed HK and got a response that indicated summer, which was somewhat disappointing.

[wje]

I still have the AVR 630 but it will be pulled out of the system soon...
As I am anxiously waiting for the AVR 7300..


Sounds like a winner. I can't wait to see some of the actual user experiences on the new AVR-7300 when it gets into user's hands.

Myself, I found that I needed to go the other way. The AVR-7200 that I own is just **too** big for me. Fills up my shelf space, has more power than I'd ever need, but sounds *oh* so sweet.

I plan on downgrading to the AVR-630 because that will save me about 20 Lbs. and 1" in height on the receiver alone.

[brnagin4]

I am a custom installer and I just installed the AVR 430 in a theater room in 7.1. The thing will not automatically go into dts-es matrix or dolby digital ex on a 5.1 system, you have to manually put it in 7.1 EVERY TIME you stop the dvd or DVHS or change surround modes(dts to Dolby). This really sucks!

I called to ask why and they said that they will no longer have the option to lock the receiver in 7.1. They said that the engineers are to "spec" with dolby that it will never matrix a 5.1 stream into 7.1 unless done manually every time. EVERY TIME! Who wants to do that?

I installed a 7.1 receiver to be a 7.1 receiver not a 5.1 that takes an hour to explain to my customer how to make it work like it is supposed to.
IN 7.1!

Oh by the way. The HK Rep said that the engineers told him the manual was wrong that it WILL NOT AUTOMATICALLY GO IN TO 7.1!

[bubbawilly]

I found the same issue when I tried the 630, and was told the same thing, that Dolby specifies this.

I guess that could be true, but that doesn't explain why it can't be set to default to 7.1 for DTS encoded material, or why every other 7.1 capable receiver and pre/pro can be set to default to 7.1 in either DD or DTS. :confused:

[cosgeo]

Are you guys talking about the reciever going into 7.1 automatically even if there is no rear channel present in the audio stream? My 630 will automatically go into 7.1 when the rear channel is present, like on the LOTR DVD's. Why would you want to default to 7.1 if the audio for the rear is not there?

[cosgeo]

Plus don't forget that you have to have the surround back's set to small or large to get get 7.1.

[bubbawilly]

Originally posted by cosgeo
Are you guys talking about the reciever going into 7.1 automatically even if there is no rear channel present in the audio stream? My 630 will automatically go into 7.1 when the rear channel is present, like on the LOTR DVD's. Why would you want to default to 7.1 if the audio for the rear is not there?

Yes, 7.1 automatically, whether or not a source is ES or EX encoded.

As to why, ...why not? Every other 7.1 capable front-end can be configured to default to 7.1, from virtually any source to include Dolby. It is selectable to begin with to 'enhance' the rear soundstage. It is why 7 channel amps/receivers are commonplace, because it has been accepted for some time as a better solution for many than 6.1. Besides, it sells more speakers! ;)

Why are there 7 channels of amplification on-board? It is selectable. All we are stating is that it cannot be set as a default like the manual states. For those reading this thread, that may matter. They may have a 7.1 speaker configuration that they plan to get good use out of by default. They may be 'upgrading' from a piece that even though years older, could be configured by default to 7.1. They may feel that 4 surrounds do provide a more seamless rear soundstage than 3, so if they would like a receiver to do this by default, they need to know to look elsewhere.

No worries! :)

[kring]

I've had an AVR 430 for a few months and I've never noticed audio drop-out. There is a 3 second initialization of a DVD or DirecTV Dolby Digital movie, it's simply the change from 2.0 to 5.1 (you can see the speaker display blinking). I have also noticed that using the optical audio and playing a CD sometimes in the first few seconds it auto-scans the inputs searching for the signal... The longest I've had this take is about 15 seconds. In either of these situations once it starts I've never had audio cut-out, drop-out, or fluctuation. I would not consider any of this an issue.

If your using optical cables, make sure there's no dust or small pet hairs in the port, I've had that happen a few times where you get a static-like or drop-out audio signal from light scatter on the port. Also flexing a cable too much could damage it permanently. I notice Sony equipment is very susceptible to this, they have very poor quality ports that don't securely grasp the cables unlike the HK's rock solid fit.

[SteveSatch]

I understand the sound delay when switching formats (2.0 to 5.1 etc), but would there be a delay in this situation:

listening to CDs via optical in from mega CD changer. I listen on shuffle mode so it plays one song from one CD and then randomly picks a song off of a different CD. Would there be a delay with each song since it take a moment to go from one CD to the next?

I assumed that if the sound proccessing format I'm listening in isn't changed there would be no delay. Is there a delay everytime the receiver starts to play something new (new DVD, new CD, new song, etc) regardless of if the sound mode changed?
Thanks,
Steve

[jasonwatkins]

Originally posted by kring
There is a 3 second initialization of a DVD or DirecTV Dolby Digital movie, it's simply the change from 2.0 to 5.1
That's exactly the issue everyone is talking about. Many other receivers don't have the 3 second initialization mute (namely Yamaha and Denon, among others).

I agree it's not that big of a deal, but it is annoying because the problem rears it's ugly head in many situations. For example if I'm channel surfing, the receiver mutes for 3 seconds every time it comes across a different audio format. Plus I always miss the first few seconds of the next week's preview of the Sopranos because the receiver is switching from DD 5.1 to 2.0. I won't bother posting the other small but annoying issues that the muting causes because they've already been posted in this thread.

Jason

[kring]

Originally posted by SteveSatch
I understand the sound delay when switching formats (2.0 to 5.1 etc), but would there be a delay in this situation:

listening to CDs via optical in from mega CD changer. I listen on shuffle mode so it plays one song from one CD and then randomly picks a song off of a different CD. Would there be a delay with each song since it take a moment to go from one CD to the next?

I assumed that if the sound proccessing format I'm listening in isn't changed there would be no delay. Is there a delay everytime the receiver starts to play something new (new DVD, new CD, new song, etc) regardless of if the sound mode changed?
Thanks,
Steve

Steve, it is only when the decoder needs to make a change in processing, so CD-CD there is no change, or flipping through TV that's all 2.0 audio is instant. even changing from Inputs is instant as long as the audio code remains. It's only when changing from 2.0 to 5.1 or Dolby to DTS that you see the unit flash and the displays visual speaker layout blinks as it identifies each channel, then the other 3.1 channels show as active vs. just FL & FR speakers. I'm just guessing here, but I beleive it's analizing the signal and applying Logic7 and setting up your custom level's etc. as every audio format and each source has independant adjustments. i.e. Video1 in can have custom settings for Logic7, Dolby 5.1, DTS 5.1, Dolby 2.0, PCM, etc.. each one can be customized rather then a blanket tuner adjustment.

[bubbawilly]

Steve, I'd make sure to buy from a dealer with a very liberal return policy none-the-less.

I'm not saying what kring is saying is wrong, as I did not use my 630 with a changer, but my experience led me to believe that the audio delay was as much attributable to slow digital signal acquisition as it was signal format changes. As such, your scenario could be the best example yet of how H/K's digital signal issues can be a 'real' problem.

[Oz-E]

nothing really you guys havent heard but heres the response i got. yesterday...


Jason,

Good afternoon and thank you for your inquiry. While we do not have a definite release date for this, I can say that our engineers are working on a software upgrade for the AVR430, which is designed to address the audio break, as well as provide some other added features. The Dolby ProLogicIIx feature is one that is currently in the works, and will be released in conjunction with the "dropout" issue, when ready. Hopefully, this will be made available shortly. The 2-way RS232 port will allow any upgrades to be performed easily, using a PC.


Thanks again for your e-mail, and please let us know if you have any other questions.

I hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Mark

[xb1032]

Does the audio dropout only occur when connecting your DVD player via COAX or the optical input? I just purchased a 630 over the weekend and tried the THX logo issue and did not get a dropout via an analog connection.

Just to a word of warning to those buying online or even from a local store, make sure when your receiver is delivered that you open the box and check everything before signing for it. Why do I mention this? I purchased the AVR630 on a 4 hour special from Circuit City on Friday at work picked up the receiver right after work at the local Circuit City. The guy that brought the receiver up to me said to be careful that the receiver was very heavy. I took it from him and went home, opened the box, only to find 2 STONES in the box!!! Wow! I called Circuit City immediately and they told me to bring it back and they'd replace it. I then took it back and they swapped it out without a hassle. I really felt funny as it made me look like a criminal. I was just thankful that this purchase came from a place like Circuit City otherwise a Mom and pop shop may not have believed my story.

[brnagin4]

Yes, That is the only way to get the digital stream from your DVD Player to the receiver. If you hook it up analog it will never be in Dolby digital,ex, dts, or dtses. The only way to get a digital signal from your dvd player is with a fiber cable or digital coax. The receiver works very well with two channel analog as you have it hooked up.

[Johne_G]

I got 2 emails today from HK support!

First email:

Good afternoon and thank you for your inquiry. This issue is something that we have slowly been hearing, as the AVR630 has just been released. We actually have reproduced the "dropout" here in our office; however, it is not known currently if it is normal, since when you switch audio modes on the fly, from any digital source, there is always a short pause in the audio. Once the DSP recognizes the signature ID of the bit-stream, it then un-mutes and plays the audio track correctly. We have notified the Chief Engineers, and are waiting for engineering to get back to us on this issue.

One of the features of the AVR630 is its ability to be upgraded, if needed. If we find that the issue is due to something in the firmware, this may be able to be easily remedied, possibly via a download on your computer. We will get back to customers accordingly once we get an answer regarding the matter.

Thanks again for your e-mail, and please let us know if you have any other questions.

Second email:

Good afternoon. I was just given an update. While we do not have a definite release date for this, I can say that our engineers are working on a software upgrade for the AVR430, which is designed to address the audio break, as well as provide some other added features. The Dolby ProLogicIIx feature is one that is currently in the works, and will be released in conjunction with the "dropout" issue, when ready. Hopefully, this will be made available shortly. The 2-way RS232 port will allow any upgrades to be performed easily, using a PC.

Thanks again for your e-mail, and please let us know if you have any other questions.

GOOD NEWS!!!

[cosgeo]

I notice that when I have my 630 in the 5 Channel Stereo mode that the surrounds are never as loud as the fronts, even if I have the surrounds turned all the way up. Is this normal?

[Loose4Bruce]

Originally posted by cosgeo
I notice that when I have my 630 in the 5 Channel Stereo mode that the surrounds are never as loud as the fronts, even if I have the surrounds turned all the way up. Is this normal?

My 630 is the same way. My last day to return it is Sat. I keep flipping back and forthas whether to keep it or not.
I'm not sure if this is called drop out, but if I skip to a track on a CD, it always cuts off the beginning of the song. Same with when I insert a CD and hit play.
If I want to experiment with listening modes, there is a lag between switching, which is annoying also.

[xb1032]

I sent HK an e-mail today asking when the 630 would be shipping with DPL IIx and they replied that there are no current plans to ship them with DPL IIx installed in the factory but that an upgrade should be available soon via download on their website. If I decide to keep the HK, I wonder if I should keep the current one and upgrade or wait for a future one with DPL IIx already installed. If it's factory installed I wonder if they will add an extra button for the DPL IIx surround mode and if there will be any additional hardware installed for enhancement (I'm not too knowledgable about this if you cannot already tell).

Also, Has anyone else compared the HK 630 to the Denon 3805? I want a 7.1 receiver for under $1K with DPL IIx and I would personally like to buy local. I also want to try before I buy so Onkyo and HK are the only upperend receivers in my area that I have the liberty to do that from CC or HH Gregg. Soundwaves caries Denon, Pioneer Elite, and Sony ES, but they don't really carry a return policy so I'm skeptical of buying from them. Well, I did buy a pair of speakers from Sound waves and the guy gave me a verbal agreement of 7 days, and I did decide to return them and while he returned them as promised I really felt like a heel doing this to him since he looked very disappointed by returning them. He may have lost 50 bucks commision but at my $600 cost. I shouldn't have to feel guilty for this.

[bubbawilly]

Originally posted by Loose4Bruce
My 630 is the same way. My last day to return it is Sat. I keep flipping back and forthas whether to keep it or not.
I'm not sure if this is called drop out, but if I skip to a track on a CD, it always cuts off the beginning of the song. Same with when I insert a CD and hit play.
If I want to experiment with listening modes, there is a lag between switching, which is annoying also.

What you are describing is actually the audio "delay" that others have mentioned. The drop-out is when audio starts, then stops (drops-out), and then starts again. Unfortunately, the 630 suffers from both.

I didn't keep my 630 long enough to discover the lag you describe. The delays, drop-outs and other anomalous H/K "features" were enough for me. ;)

[Zoma121]

Ugh, I thought I was sure I was getting an AVR 230 for my new HT system, but considering that I'm building my system to do HDTV, this sounds like a real deal-breaker. Especially since the 230 doesn't have the upgrade capabilities of the 430s or 630s.

[Loose4Bruce]

My HK AVR 630 went back today.
Back to the drawing board.

[Rgb]

Wow.

A lot of recent activity on this. Glad to see the seeds I planted have grown to motivate HK into action (yet to be proven ;) ).

To all of you who have returned or avoided the purchase of HKx30 receivers due to issues described here (Zoma121, bubbawilly, others), please be sure to let HK know your reasons at www.harmankardon.com (use the feedback form on the support page).

[M Code]

Over the last 18 months I have tried a Denon 3803, Yamaha 2400, Elite 53Tx, AVR 7200 and AVR 630 in my home theater system. But I still strongly prefer the HK musical sound through my Infinity speakers. Though some of the other brands had certain features that may appeal to some like the Room EQ or even higher published power. The HK just sounded clearer and more dynamic.

I have found that when the other brands are tested they always seem to fall short in actual power to published specs. For example, in the May 2004 issue of Sound and Vision just tested the Yamaha RZ9 and Yamaha claims 170W x 7 but it only put out 138W/Ch..
Also they mention the YPAO EQ system actually may degrade its tonal quality. I can agree on lower priced AVRs that there may be some tradeoffs but @ $4500 one should wonder why it falls short in certain crucial categories..

Regarding the HK dropout, after using the HK 630 for 7 months we do agree that the HK 630 may take slightly longer to bring up the audio DSP when playing my Samsung HD tuner. But in measuring the overall delay time, the longest delay is in the HD tuner not in the AVR. And when using the HD tuner it takes about 3 1/2 seconds to output its picture and digital audio stream, but for my DVD player it takes only 1 1/4 seconds which indicates the HD tuner takes 2 seconds longer than the DVD player. If the signal is delayed from the HD tuner to me I will not blame HK for this...
Just my $.02 worth...

[ThorsHammer]

I know HK is saying that they are not providing the software patch for the 7200 but does anyone think it may work anyway but they just aren't recommending it?

Would love to get IIx and get rid of the audio delay. Any chance one of our local geniuses will be able to get this to work? Or are there internal differences that would make this impossible?

[Rgb]

Originally posted by ThorsHammer
I know HK is saying that they are not providing the software patch for the 7200 but does anyone think it may work anyway but they just aren't recommending it?

Would love to get IIx and get rid of the audio delay. Any chance one of our local geniuses will be able to get this to work? Or are there internal differences that would make this impossible?

An earlier post in this thread stated that the 7200's RS232 port is hardwired for *control* purposes only, and does not support the protocols necessary for firmware updates via RS232.

[bubbawilly]

I agree regarding the common over-inflation of wattage specs. I've read the same recent reviews about Yamaha, and whereas Denon used to be a little more honest about power ratings, they seem to be slipping in that department. The Pioneer Elite however, has been measured to exceed its rated power with 5 channels driven, and the Elites have been doing so for several years, so I wouldn't lump them into that group. None-the-less, a Yamaha with 138 WPC 'actual' power, or a Denon with 80 watts of actual power is plenty for any application that a 75WPC H/K would also be suited for.

My dissatisfaction with H/K has nothing to do with their performance relative to cable/sat tuners. Many components hiccup with those sources, and I agree the tuners are more to blame than the components that they are connected to. Most set-top boxes are absolute junk (that's why many of them are "...free with a year's subscription"). Even the over-priced HD boxes are built with the cheapest available parts and poorly implemented interface firmware. Most freeze and fart when a channel is changed, or a menu accessed, so it's no wonder they don't interface well with a relatively sophisticated processor. Rather, my dissatisfaction with H/K processors is how they perform with CD and DVD. While everyone will not have a tuner connected to their processor, literally everyone will have a DVD and/or CD source. To have delays and drop-outs with those commonplace, very reliable sources is inexcusable considering virtually every other manufacturer eliminated the 'bugs' with handling digital signals after the first generation of their DSP equipped products some 8 years ago.

Connecting an unreliable/unpredictable source to an otherwise reliable component and getting an unreliable result does not make that component faulty. On the other hand, connecting a completely reliable source to a component and getting an unreliable/unpredictable result, well....

[Rgb]

Originally posted by bubbawilly

My dissatisfaction with H/K has nothing to do with their performance relative to cable/sat tuners. Many components hiccup with those sources, and I agree the tuners are more to blame than the components that they are connected to. Most set-top boxes are absolute junk (that's why many of them are "...free with a year's subscription"). Even the over-priced HD boxes are built with the cheapest available parts and poorly implemented interface firmware. Most freeze and fart when a channel is changed, or a menu accessed, so it's no wonder they don't interface well with a relatively sophisticated processor. Rather, my dissatisfaction with H/K processors is how they perform with CD and DVD. While everyone will not have a tuner connected to their processor, literally everyone will have a DVD and/or CD source. To have delays and drop-outs with those commonplace, very reliable sources is inexcusable considering virtually every other manufacturer eliminated the 'bugs' with handling digital signals after the first generation of their DSP equipped products some 8 years ago.

Connecting an unreliable/unpredictable source to an otherwise reliable component and getting an unreliable result does not make that component faulty. On the other hand, connecting a completely reliable source to a component and getting an unreliable/unpredictable result, well....

F@#%'ing-A, Bubba! :D

(Always wanted a reason to say that ever since Fred Ward/ The Right Stuff...)

Well stated.

It's like no one at HK ever tried a DVD with their receivers. If they did, believing that such a dropout during the change from DD 2.0 to DD or DTS 5.1 was acceptable for a serious home theater was a significant misunderstanding of real world use and customer expectations.

[guitarman]

I'm glad there's a little dropout because I don't see it as a big deal. But I do see the HK7200 for $749 a big deal. :)

If there wasn't so much clamor or fuss about the audio thing the $749 deal wouldn't hv surfaced. What would you rather do pay $2300 for a 7300 or $749 for a 7200 with the audio thing.

Now I'd agree if I paid the original $1999 or $1799 I probably would take it back. If at that time they said we'll take $1200 off. well!

[ThorsHammer]

RGB- Thanks...I was hoping otherwise but prepared to live w/o the IIx for the time being.

[Rgb]

Originally posted by guitarman
I'm glad there's a little dropout because I don't see it as a big deal. But I do see the HK7200 for $749 a big deal. :)

If there wasn't so much clamor or fuss about the audio thing the $749 deal wouldn't hv surfaced. What would you rather do pay $2300 for a 7300 or $749 for a 7200 with the audio thing.

Now I'd agree if I paid the original $1999 or $1799 I probably would take it back. If at that time they said we'll take $1200 off. well!

While I doubt the audio delay/dropout issue has anything to do with the 7200 closout prices (more to do with the coming 7300, IMO), unless we continue to make HK aware of the issue, the 7300 will most certainly have the same audio dropout/delay issues.

[guitarman]

I don't know when I saw the $749 price down from a $1799 retail I was surprised. I've never seen any high end receiver get lowered that much from the recent retail price, even with a newer model coming out. Who knows, I never really though of HK products and was very surprised with the sound quality once I got it hooked up at home. Last receiver was a Marantz SR8000.

To show you how minimal the sound thing is for me. After having the HK7200 for a week. When switching from DTS to DD and waiting a second for the click in it never struck me as something wrong. Just when I started reading here and I found people calling it a problem. :)

[clarkcarty]

Got this back today:

Hi,

While we do not have a definite release date for this, I can say that our
engineers are working on a software upgrade for the AVRx30, which is
designed to address the audio break, as well as provide some other added
features. The Dolby ProLogicIIx feature is one that is currently in the
works, and will be released in conjunction with the "dropout" issue, when
ready. Hopefully, this will be made available shortly. The 2-way RS232
port will allow any upgrades to be performed easily, using a PC.



Best Regards,
Vu Le
Internet Support Specialist

[Rgb]

Originally posted by guitarman


To show you how minimal the sound thing is for me. After having the HK7200 for a week. When switching from DTS to DD and waiting a second for the click in it never struck me as something wrong. Just when I started reading here and I found people calling it a problem. :)

Just a weekly bump to the top, and a couple of reminders for anyone interested in buying an AVRx30 or 7300 receiver:

Please contact HK at www.harmankardon.com, Product Support page, "Feedback" option,

http://www.harmankardon.com/product_support/feedback.asp?lstProduct=AVR%20630

or call them at 516-255-HKHK for Harman Kardon Customer Service to express your issues with your current product or reservations in your purchasing decision.

Also, read the first post in this thread, which explains the nature of the dropout, which is not the same as an absolute audio delay in detecting streams (i.e bitstream detection speed, which was HUGE on the Sony 30ES). The issue is that the AVRx30 receivers clearly recognize the audio stream type basically *instantly*- you can hear the stream immediately (which requires that the receiver decode the bitstream in order to hear it). The audio then mutes, and comes back (which HK has described as "applying DSP modes" on top of the straight DD/DTS decode).

Well, in many cases, home theater users *don't apply additional DSP processing over straight DD/DTS/EX/ES decoding* (particularly audio purists, which this receiver is targeted for!). And if they *do* apply a DSP mode, it doesn't change often enough to justify the dropout (affecting studio/Dolby/DTS logos & Overture audio cues)- i.e. enable DSP mode locking and/or an option for disabling DSP mode auto setting.

OK, weekly venting accomplished ;).

P.S. The AVR630 still runs my dedicated basement theater, and I enjoy the audio quality, when the audio isn't dropping out of course :D.

P.P.S. If an upgrade/fix never materializes for DPLIIx *and* the audio dropout issue (I am very patient), when it's time to upgrade in two or three years, the Pioneer's and Panasonic's of the world would be back on my radar :(...

[starman31]

When I send a message to H/K support about my 630 this was the response I got.


Hi,

Thank you for your inquiry. This is normal. When the receiver sees a
digital signal, it has to identify it and select the proper decoding
software, load the software into place and then begin the decoding
process. While this is happening, the receiver mutes to avoid hearing any
unwanted digital noise.

There will be an update shortly to speed this process up as well as add
DPLIIx. We do not have a scheduled release date yet. Please check
back periodically on our website for updates.

Best Regards,
Vu Le
Internet Support Specialist

Doesn't look good for the dropout issue.

[JohnnyG]

Although this delay doesn't bother me, I've obviously noticed it. As you've observed, Rgb, it does indeed recognise the signal immediately and you hear it briefly before the mute. However, you may also notice - if the circumstances are right - that for that brief moment, it's playing with the previous settings for surround mode, etc. For example, if you go from a Dolby Digital 2.0 channel to a 5.1 channel, the audio you hear briefly will be in 2.0. So then it mutes, loads up the correct configuration, and starts playing again. Since the H/Ks have more unique settings like independent speaker level settings for each surround type, it's understandable that loading the settings in to change modes takes a bit longer.

But it's great to hear that they're working on improving this.

[cosgeo]

Still waiting............

[dsmith901]

I went back and read the first post, and I have a question for RGB. Why are you fiddling with the audio setting on your DVD player? I have the AVR520 and a Toshiba 2300 DVD player. When I start the movie I (almost) never have to mess with the DVD audio - it automatically outputs 5.1 or 2.0 or whatever is on the disc, and the 520 sees it. The DVD-input on the 520 is set to alwasy select DD and it does, whether 5.1 or 2.0. Menus are 2.0 as you say, but when the movie starts the DVD player and the 520 automatically switch to 5.1 and all is well. So is the 630 doing something different than the 520? Since I am looking into moving to the 630 when DPLIIx comes on board I would like to know how its handling of signals is different than the 520. Has anyone compared these two units, by any chance?

[hummer28]

I just spoke with a tech support representative from Harman Kardon concerning the upgrade for the AVR 630/430. I was told that the code for the upgrade had been finalized, but engineers had not determined the best way to distribute it. It surprises me that HK touts the AVR 630's ability to be upgraded via the RS-232 serial port, yet they are undecided upon whether to release it via this method.

"As a part of our continuing efforts to improve our products, and thanks to the bi-directional RS-232 port featured on the AVR 430 and AVR 630, we are in the process of developing a software upgrade that, among other things, will reduce the length of the muting. The upgrade will be available in the near future as a down-loadable file that may be ported from your computer to the receiver via the RS-232 serial port. We won’t post the upgrade file until we are satisfied that the receiver is performing at its best. "

Don't get me wrong, I love this receiver. I guess I'm a little antsy to try out this PLIIx thing. The pauses don't bother me too much either, but I could do without them seeing as how they have become more frequent as my TV viewing increases. I for one don't want to take my receiver into a service center to get this upgrade. This thing weighs a ton and to disconnect all the cabling in the back would be a real hassle. Hopefully the guys and gals over at HK will do what's best for the consumer.

[big boi]

any word on this? have y'all gotten the fix for these issues yet?

[Q of BanditZ]

Very interesting.

Here's something, I wonder: I noticed while using Dolby headphones modes and listening to CD's via the Zenith DVB318 connected via a coax cable that, when one track would finish and the next would start, about the first two seconds of that track would be lost. I could then press back to restart the track and it would be fine.

This is most annoying, though, becuase it happens almost every time, if I listen to a CD straight through, from track to track.

Thus far, it doesn't seem to happen when just playing over speakers.

What do you all make of this? Is it the Zenith? The receiver? The Dolby headphone modes doing something funky?

I have never switched my audio during a DVD playback to experience the problem being discussed in this thread. I wonder if this is all related or not?

I just got this unit two days ago. I do indeed love it, so I'm just hoping everything works out.

[JimMac]

Yes, I purchased the AVR430 which has the aggravating drop out problem. Can't wait for the fix and then slightly off subject...
In addition to this, I have been trying to use the H/K remote as a SPL meter in manual mode as it states in the operating manual. (OK, I know I should have purchased the Radio Shack analog meter). Each time I place the remote in manual SPL mode, about 20 seconds later the darn thing times out and returns to default AVR mode, doesn't even give me the time to set levels. I have written the H/K support site and received the standard "Oh, Sorry, but thanks" message and please try the EzSet SPL. But the automatic mode does not support LFE calibration. So, now I have two problems with this classy amp. Darn it ! Please write H/K.

Has anyone else had this problem in addition to the drop out ?

Thanks,
Jim

[BigguyZ]

So how bad are teh current issues? I was pretty much set on getting a 630, as I can get a pretty good deal on one through work, but it'd be for movies, and music (CDs). If every track gets cut off that's bull- but if it's fixed, no big deal. I'm about a month away from purchasing either way, but I want to jump on it soon, as the next project is to get a TV or projector.

[Q of BanditZ]

Tracks don't seem to get cut off for me thus far unless I am using the Dolby headphones. I'll report more as I can...

[Q of BanditZ]

Another thing I notice is: When I turn the unit on, is it normal for it to take a while to...warm up? Again, this is mostly related to the Dolby headphones.

I notice that, if I turn the unit on, turn my CD/DVD player on, plug the phones in and press play...no sound whatsoever. And it lasts. So I have to unplug the phones, get it recognize that the coax connection is being active, plug the phones back in, and it finally gets the idea.

What am I stumbling on here?

[hpeine]

I was shopping around for an HK, but this may have changed my mind. It sounds really annoying. Too annoying if other brands don't do it. Is it save to assume the cheaper HK's (130, 225, 230) have this problem as well??

[Q of BanditZ]

I have the issue mostly with dolby headphone use. Guranteed loss of the first two seconds of each track. Most annoying.

I also notice that it takes forever for the receiver to recognize a signal coming in, with ot without the 'phones...

HK 630.

[Rgb]

Originally posted by dsmith901
I went back and read the first post, and I have a question for RGB. Why are you fiddling with the audio setting on your DVD player? I have the AVR520 and a Toshiba 2300 DVD player. When I start the movie I (almost) never have to mess with the DVD audio - it automatically outputs 5.1 or 2.0 or whatever is on the disc, and the 520 sees it. The DVD-input on the 520 is set to alwasy select DD and it does, whether 5.1 or 2.0. Menus are 2.0 as you say, but when the movie starts the DVD player and the 520 automatically switch to 5.1 and all is well. So is the 630 doing something different than the 520? Since I am looking into moving to the 630 when DPLIIx comes on board I would like to know how its handling of signals is different than the 520. Has anyone compared these two units, by any chance?


If you put a DVD in your set top player, connected to the 630 via TOSlink or Coax digital, with the 630 locked to the DVD player's output, you will hear DD 2.0 menu sounds (on most DVD's) with perhaps a brief mute at the start of the DD 2.0 menu sound. No big problem here (except for excessive muting at the start of the DD bitstream).

The biggest issue is when you hit "Play Movie" (or whatever the particualar DVD says on its menu to start the movie), or just press play on your DVD remote, and the main movie or studio/DTS logo starts. The audio stream from the DVD player switches to DD 5.1 automatically (on movies with DD 5.1 audio) after exiting the menu. THIS is where the 630 then mutes for over 2 seconds. You will miss the audio cue for the movie start, DTS logo, or studio logo.

Yep. No MGM Lion Roar. No commercial-theater-like DTS audio cue or other studio logo cue. For movies that start dialog immediately, you will miss the first few seconds of the story (unless you rewind with your remote).

If a commercial cinema did this regularly, people wouldn't go to that cinema.

[Q of BanditZ]

Not earth shattering, but yes, that does happen. Thankfully, my issue I described above, with music, only seems to happen with dolby headphones, so that's a relief. Still annoying, though...

[Q of BanditZ]

Excellent customer service.


Since receiving the unit, I have kept a dialogue with a specfic customer service rep.

Unexpectedly, I had casually mentioned this two second loss of sound at the beginning of each music track on a CD when using Dolby headphones...and he comes back to me with RMA and the whole works.

They're going to exchange the 630 for me, even just for this little thing. No cost to me whatsoever.

That's very impressive. I didn't even think this was anywhere close to exchange consideration.

Nice!

[yshin]

is this fixed on new units?

i haven't noticed anything on mine but i didn't really check either.

[Q of BanditZ]

Well, mine was a refurb. I have no idea if it would even show up on other units. My particular case might be rare. <shrugs>

[BigguyZ]

If the CD track thing is only on Dolby headphones than that's no big deal for me. I think I may have to get the 630. What are 630's going for these days? $800?

[Q of BanditZ]

Check out a certain very, very well known Internet retailer that sells many different things (starts with letter A) and um...it's cheaper. Authorized, too. ;)

Consider a direct from HK refurb at around $600 also. Via www.harmanaudio.com or Ebay. Seller ID: harmanaudio.

[andyvegas]

I sent H/K's online support an e-mail asking if there was going to be a fix for the audio dropout problem on the 430. Here is there reply:

"Thanks for your inquiry to us. We are actually working on a software upgrade that addresses this issue and should dramatically reduce the digital pause. We expect to have more information regarding the upgrade by mid summer."

So, not much news, but good to at least see they admit there is a problem.

-Andy

[catapult]

Q, please let us know if your replacement works better with Dolby Headphone. I was thinking about getting one of these to use as a headphone amp (no speakers attached) but the problem you describe would be a deal killer.

[wsmithjr]

Can somebody tell me if the audio dropout problem affects the older 325 model? I read way back in the thread that it started with the 525, but don't know which came first. I don't think the 325 has the RS-232 port so that it can be updated like the x30 line.

Thanks for any help.

Warren

[Q of BanditZ]

Ok, I have tested debugged this thing and I am satisifed that the ONLY problem it has is the headphone thing.

Here's how it works: Regardless of whether I have it on BP (no Dolby tricks) or the three Dolby modes, with the headphones on, you hear complete silence. There's no electronic noise, nothing. Dead silence for two seconds at the beginning of each track, then the music kicks in.

It's like the unit temporarily loses the input signal and then finds it and resumes. It doesn't happen in ANY other usage except with headphones on. Weird.

[catapult]

Q, does it do the same thing with headphones and an analog input or is it only with the digital inputs.

[Q of BanditZ]

Check this out: This is from the same HK rep I have been in constant dialogue about over this:

Hello Eric,
Thanks for getting back to me on this.
I appreciate your going through the paces with the unit to test
further.
Please understand that the replacement unit will most likely have the
same sound dropout for each track on a CD.
Using the CD player with analog connections will eliminate the audio
dropout.
If you have any other questions or need further assistance, please let
me know.

I guess I won't bother with the exchange, then. I'll test the analogs immediately.

[Q of BanditZ]

FIXED!

Using the analogs for CD music play completely fixes the problem. The coax goes from the Zenith DVB318 to the coax input for DVD play and now the analogs are going into the CD audio input.

Everything is flawless.

I have my own theories about why that is. I don't think it's a flaw, I think it's a quirk. But...I'd love to see what you all think.

Whew! :D

[Q of BanditZ]

Last correspondence from HK on this after I told them the analogs worked:


Thanks for getting back to me on this. They are currently testing a
number of units and I wont know the outcome
for a number days but I will keep you in the loop. From what I can
discern the drop out is caused using the Digital connection only, although
seemingly similar to the audio drop out that occurs when changing
channels using the digital connections to a SAT or Cable Box, or even on a
DVD disc,
this may or may not be related. Obviously using the analog outputs
corrects this but it should also be seamless with the digital connections.


I want to give HK and this gentleman, Scott, that's been keeping tabs with me on this whole thing THE highest of praise. :)

[CruelInventions]

Well, at least they are no longer claiming ignorance or that "this is normal" anymore. It's about time.

[Rgb]

This thread has been a case study on the psychology of ownership.

If you read this thread from start to finish, you'll find denial, condescension, and dismissal of the problem as "insignificant" or only an issue for the anal-retentive.

In six months, both the user base and HK have passed into the acceptance phase.

Sometimes these forums work ;).

[Rgb]

Originally posted by catapult
Q, does it do the same thing with headphones and an analog input or is it only with the digital inputs.

I am listening to a couple of CD's with Dolby Headphone right now, from a Panasonic RP82 via coax to the HK630 coax input 1.

There are indeed dropouts *between tracks* when playing back red book CD's via digital inputs!

Amazing.

It's like *no one* at HK *ever tried* to listen to a CD with headphones via Dolby Headphone (a MAJOR feature of this receiver) over TOSlink/coax.

These kinds of issues- where a manufacturer apparently hasn't verified significant, easily checked product features prior to shipment, continue to astound me.

Yes, the analog inputs don't have a dropout (of course), but that's not the point.

I have found that the symptoms vary from CD to CD.

A CD with short gaps between tracks (Journey-Infinity) did not experience audio dropouts via DH if played continuously, with the following exceptions: the first track played will have approx a 2 sec mute, and if you skip tracks forward or back you will not hear the first 2-3 seconds of the track you stop at.

A CD with "normal" gaps *will* mute at the start of each track, even if played continuously! I tested the wife's Chicago's Greatest Hits, lying nearby.

[Q of BanditZ]

Very interesting. RGB, that's basically the same problem I have.

I am going to tenatively say that the analogs the work around solution for this problem. Thus far, I have had zero problems on CD's since making the switch this afternoon. I basically am using two nice monster analogs that were also coax's. (Most of these cables are interchangeable when you get down to it.)

No sound differnece whatsoever. For 2 channel, regular CD, it doesn't make any difference imho. Sounds great! :D

I do agree with you RGB. A lot of companies still don't even bother with DH, which is a shame. It's just kind of a bizarre glitch that I am glad there is a simple go around for. God knows I have way more analog inputs then I needed, so, that's fine.

It's like *no one* at HK *ever tried* to listen to a CD with headphones via Dolby Headphone (a MAJOR feature of this receiver) over TOSlink/coax.

Exactly. It's mystifying and dumb, really.

HK is aware of this specific thread and all the issues discussed therein. It does seem like an easy thing to not get done right.

At least now, I don't have to exchange this unit in and I can continue my speaker hunt in earnest. :)

This is a manufactering flaw, albeit a minor one.

[catapult]

A CD with short gaps between tracks (Journey-Infinity) did not experience audio dropouts via DH if played continuously I did some checking on CD player mute circuits and that sounds consistent. Most of them turn off the digital output after some period of silence, typically 3/4 second. If that happens, the receiver has to lock onto the signal again when the next track starts. But, if the next track starts quickly enough, the player never mutes and the receiver never loses the lock. Sounds like the same old dropout problem "logic" although it may be in a separate piece of DSP code for the headphones. The Crystal DSP chips used in the HK (and quite a few others) seem to have the worst problem with this.

[Q of BanditZ]

Yup. Now thankfully, it only happen WITH the headphones under this digital criteria. Beyond that, the unit has been a dream for me.

[dkangel]

just my .02$
Be aware that there is actually a standard for production of Music CD's, with a 2 second spacing between tracks. Not all CD's produced meet this standard and can actually be longer than 2 seconds. As mentioned in a previous post, the processor can lose the digital signal if the spacing is even slightly over 2 seconds. You may find the drop out ocurrence varies from disc to disc.
I know we are all quick to blame the manufacturers, but I am sure that all Manufacturers thoroughly test their products and the processor manufacturers certify their processing chips, but there are other outside factors that can affect their products, since the outside parameters are not within their control and are not always standardized....

[Johnla]

Originally posted by dkangel
but I am sure that all Manufacturers thoroughly test their products

Guess what, they don't always do so.

Just go look in on the Sony GWIII Buzz thread....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=316921

Not to mention some of the other brands and products, that also have some issues that should have be caught during testing.

[Q of BanditZ]

Originally posted by dkangel
just my .02$
Be aware that there is actually a standard for production of Music CD's, with a 2 second spacing between tracks. Not all CD's produced meet this standard and can actually be longer than 2 seconds. As mentioned in a previous post, the processor can lose the digital signal if the spacing is even slightly over 2 seconds. You may find the drop out ocurrence varies from disc to disc.
I know we are all quick to blame the manufacturers, but I am sure that all Manufacturers thoroughly test their products and the processor manufacturers certify their processing chips, but there are other outside factors that can affect their products, since the outside parameters are not within their control and are not always standardized....

All of this is true, yes, but thankfully, going to analogs is a nice go around and I have no decline in sound quality whatsoever. :)

[xb1032]

Has anyone heard anymore about the DPLIIx upgrade for the AVR 430 & 630? I asked and am still getting the standard response that the HK is in the final testing stages and that not only will DPL IIx be upgraded but that other firmware changes will be done and to expect 8-10 weeks for a release (this was the same response that I got about 3 or 4 weeks ago).

[dkangel]

Software upgrades are not simple an involve a lot more than simple programing. any cange to sfptware can effect other parameters in the products operation so it must be fully tested and if something is found to effect another section of operation it has to be debugged back to begining or to the point of change and re-coded. This takes some time and additional testing.
I am sure they will come through but it would make sense to only need one software revision, rather than a few to correct anything the first one changed..... I am sure you will agree

[Q of BanditZ]

Right. All still in progress...

[MikeA]

Testing of software should be automated. This is not labor intensive except for setting up the test suite to begin with. Subsequent software upgrade testing should relatively painless.

[nightfly85]

Just because "automated testing" is the accepted norm, don't assume everyone is using for all their testing or even any.

The simple fact is that H/K doesn't want to release a string of firmware updates. So they will take the time to test the changes in the shop and in the field. That takes time. If they find problems, they have to fix them and re-test.

Keep in mind, there's a descent chance that they won't release the firmware as an update, but in fact, will only use it on new systems.

[Q of BanditZ]

Originally posted by nightfly85
Just because "automated testing" is the accepted norm, don't assume everyone is using for all their testing or even any.

The simple fact is that H/K doesn't want to release a string of firmware updates. So they will take the time to test the changes in the shop and in the field. That takes time. If they find problems, they have to fix them and re-test.

Keep in mind, there's a descent chance that they won't release the firmware as an update, but in fact, will only use it on new systems.

All true, but I have definitely gotten the idea that they are working on fixes for systems right now.

[dkangel]

Originally posted by MikeA
Testing of software should be automated. This is not labor intensive except for setting up the test suite to begin with. Subsequent software upgrade testing should relatively painless.

Not as simple as it sounds. There is manual labor in testing of software once it is applied to processor. Manual testing would involve complete testing of the operation of the unit itself, not just the processing.

As noted in the previous reply and by nightfly85, rather than a string of software versions, let them produce one good working one to address any issues with a product.
Obviously, as you can tell by this string if the software were rushed and something were missed, or operation changed, you can bet that there would be a firestorm of comments stating " Why didn't they take the time to test the software first"

[Q of BanditZ]

Here's a new quirk for everyone to try and figure out.

When using the analogs from DVD/CD player to the HK, with the speakers instead of headphones...the sub doesn't work! LOL. I swithch back to the coax and it works fine.

So... what I have is: Use analogs for headphones only, coax for all else.

Weird, huh?

[Dennis Gardner]

Bass management has to be set for each input seperately. That may be the reasoning behind the sub problem.

Using Analog output for CD or DVD usage is a temp fix for the dropout at the beginning of songs or scenes because you are using the Digital-to-Analog converters in your player instead of the receiver's DACs, but still doesn't address the ongoing issues with dropouts throughout the HK lines for switching between inputs. This has been an issue for the last couple of generations of HK receivers. It is a muting of volume during the search mode of the processor that causes the dropout. They don't have a clear fix for this and only the most recent models (2004) are going to be upgradeable since the receivers weren't made upgradeable through the RS232 port on earlier models. RS232 on earlier models is strictly a remote control port. Your AVR630 is upgradeable according to HK, only time will tell.

Do a search throughout AVS or HTF for the dropout issue and you will see that this is no new issue. It has been around for a couple of years and HK has done very little about fixing it and has continued to use similar processors and muting software that has only diminished the dropout a little, but hasn't eliminated it as others have done.

It is truly a shame that one of the best sounding receiver lines has such a glitch in its lineage, this is why I didn't rush out to replace my AVR7200 with the new 7300 model. The dropout is still there during certain circumstances.

Dropouts are just a part of life when owning a great sounding HK receiver!
I bought mine knowing this and anyone that didn't know this going into their purchase of an HK AVR simply didn't research enough. Most of my CD listening is performed by a 2 channel setup designed for stereo listening. I love my 7200 for home theater since when watching a movie, I watch from beginning to end without changing inputs alot.

Dennis

[MikeA]

dkangel - I have over twenty years in IT. I've worked for manufacturers (IBM and NCR) and investment banks (Goldman and Credit Suisse). Now I have my own business. I know exactly what's involved in testing software.

Granted the programmers in QA may not be the companies best, but once the test suite is done; testing enhancements to software suites isn't brain surgery.

[dkangel]

Since the processing chip for HK equipment is not built by them, but rather by Cirrus, thechanges have to be determined, approved and applied by Cirrus first in a test suite and then once that is comp;ete furthe testing is done in the receiver itself to confirm operation with the other components in the prodcut. I understand that from a software only standpoint this is not that complicated but all the bells and whistles still have the function the same once a software change is implemented.

Just give them time.... I am sure they are aware of all this and are working to fix this....

[Q of BanditZ]

Great points, everyone. At least the quirk can be worked around in the interim instead of me playing merry go round with shipping and units in a futile cirlce until the fix is actually done. Even the HK guy said to me an exchange would be a waste of my time, but they'd do it for me if I wanted.

I'll live. ;)

[kring]

I just recieved an email from HK about the AVR 430 AVR 630 firmware on 7/7, the way it was worded was that it stated that the firmware upgrade would add new surround modes but that one of the "side effects" is a shorter mute. He said it is coming really soon, available within the month, but no specific stated day yet. Sounds like they are making good progress.

[barhoram]

2 quick questions on the 630. 1) Does the OSD work through component or just s-video? 2) Is there a way to play through the speakers while the headphone jack is plugged in, or does it automatically switch the speakrs off (and they have to stay off?) Thanks

[Q of BanditZ]

1.) Everything BUT Component for OSD.

2.) Answer: No. Speakers shut off automatically.


I just found out the real power behind this machine yesterday when I received my HTD Level 4 y speakers. Everything is set to LARGE, and Logic 7 music got thrown on. Simply put: It's like I am listenting to my music collection again for the very first time. Music has truly become 3 dimensional for me, now.

This really is a remarkable unit. Hats off to HK!

[blackmax2k1]

Any update on this? I really wonder what the chances are of them releasing an upgrade since they have acknowledged the problem when this thread started! It's now August!

[hummer28]

I'm so frustrated with Harman Kardon right now. I've been sending e-mail messages since May 3, 2004 with the same response concerning this firmware update. As I matter of fact the last message I received on today goes like this:
____________________________________________________________
Lewis,

Good morning and thank you for your inquiry. While we have not been given an exact release date for the upcoming software upgrade, this should be released shortly as we are trying to figure out the best and easiest way to distribute this to consumers. If there are ever any changes to the different formats in the receiver, these will more than likely be offered as some type of firmware upgrade, as well. Thanks again for your e-mail, and please let us know if you have any other questions.



I hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Mark Tirotta
Internet Support Specialist
____________________________________________________________

It's funny because the message I got in late April/Early May read exactly the same way. I'm not so much concerned with the update at this point as I am that I've been bamboozled. I bought this unit confident that inevitably there would be an upgrade provided for it in a reasonable amount of time. I understand some that say that things like this take time, but it's been four months and the AVR 430/630 are HK's hottest selling line of receivers. One would think in the spirit of customer relations that they would have a better answer than "shortly". I just had to vent. For what it's worth I love my AVR630!

[blackmax2k1]

I must point out that it seems it's always the same guy replying to everyones emails. We need to get a hold of somebody that knows more. It is sad that it's taking this long. If they don't go through with it they will catch a lot of hell.

[xb1032]

I actually got a reply early June that told me that it should be available within a month. I tried back early this month and it could be up to 3 months. I got a reply from a different rep. I too hope this update comes out soon. I've been waiting to see if this was going to happen since late May.

[JimMac]

Must be a stinker of a problem. Waiting, Waiting....
Shouldn't there be another way to increase the pressure ? I really like it now that I cannot return the receiver for a refund. Maybe it can't be fixed and HK is waiting for us to go away.

[vinodk]

I am considering HK 430 or 630 to use as a pre-pro. Does anybody know what the output level & impeadence of preamp outputs on these receivers is? I have not received a proper response from HK.

[hummer28]

To add insult to injury this is the message I received from an HK rep this morning concerning the software update. I for one am not about to take my receiver to an authorized service center. I'm scared to move it to a different shelf let alone haul it to a facility to have this update done.

_________________________________________________________

Lewis,

Good morning. I can understand your frustration, but, I can only provide the information we are given regarding a particular product, or feature. As much as I would like to tell you that the upgrade is going to be released tomorrow, if this is not true, I would not tell you this. When I say that we are trying to determine how to distribute this, this means that the upgrade may be something offered to repair facilities to perform, as not everyone is computer literate. Or, we may offer it to consumers to perform themselves. We know this will be done through the RS232 port, but, not everyone is familiar with how this works. As soon as it is ready to be released, it will be made available.


Thanks again for your e-mail, and please let us know if you have any other questions.

I hope this helps.


Sincerely,


Mark Tirotta

Internet Support Specialist
__________________________________________________________

Wouldn't it stand to reason that if you purchased a $1000+ (MSRP) receiver that you might actually be computer literate! Maybe that's not a logical connection on my part, but I think there might be a direct link between thousands of dollars poured into A/V equipment and computer aptitude. At any rate, if anyone heres anything different please post it. Thanks guys and gals!

[BSOD2.7]

Originally posted by hummer28
_________________________________________________________

Lewis,

When I say that we are trying to determine how to distribute this, this means that the upgrade may be something offered to repair facilities to perform, as not everyone is computer literate. Or, we may offer it to consumers to perform themselves. We know this will be done through the RS232 port, but, not everyone is familiar with how this works. As soon as it is ready to be released, it will be made available.
_________________________________________________________

Wouldn't it stand to reason that if you purchased a $1000+ (MSRP) receiver that you might actually be computer literate! Maybe that's not a logical connection on my part, but I think there might be a direct link between thousands of dollars pured into A/V equipment and computer aptitude. At any rate, if anyone heres anything different please post it. Thanks guys and gals!

I'm in a similar situation with a current project at work, and you basically need to make stuff like this near idiot proof, and that can take quite a while. Just because you spend $_ on something doesn't mean a thing - trust me :D Think about it this way: How many folks buy a $1000+ computer from Dell/etc? Quite a few right? Now how many of them actually know how to re-install the OS? Not a whole lot.

[Dennis Gardner]

I think that the correlation between computer literacy and high audio expenditures may be a stretch, but I assure you that most that care about keeping their audio soft/firmware updated are only aware of the upgradability through understanding computer upgrades. Since HK sells many of their AVRs through B&M chain outlerts, many of those customers just bought it cause that is what was sold to them, and they are in need of the service center route.

It is the modern day equivalent of rolling tubes in your amp in the '60s and those in search of great audio and video will find a way to get it right.

[blackmax2k1]

They better offer it either way. Do-it-yourself or the service center. I have no service centers around me! Plus it would take forever for the service center to do it.

[vinodk]

I agree with the idea of offering it either way. I am not a computer genius but I was able to download firmware onto IScan HD with the help of Tech. support on the line & that was my very first time doing it.

[Version]

As long as they have reasonable instructions I would assume that well more than half of their customers could do this by themselves.

[DblHelix]

If the upgrade process is anything like other companies it is real easy. You connect a null moden cable from the computer to the receiver and run the update which is usually a batch file or similar and it will give you a status and usually the receiver will say done or something when done. I did this on my Sony and it was so easy

[attweb]

Just thought I would pass this along. I received this based on an inquiry about the avr630. For what it is worth...

Good morning and thank you for your inquiry. While we do not have a definite release date for this, I can say that our engineers are working on a software upgrade for the AVR630, which is designed to address the audio break, as well as provide some other added features. The Dolby ProLogicIIx feature is one that is currently in the works, and will be released in conjunction with the "dropout" issue, when ready. This should be released shortly as we are trying to figure out the best and easiest way to distribute this to consumers. We are expecting this to be finalized within the next 3-4 weeks.

[rossjudson]

Chances are HK is worried about the firmware process for the following reason: If incorrectly applied by a consumer, that AVR630 is probably coming in for repair, and that's going to cost money. The audio issue is pretty annoying, and I'd like to get mine upgraded ASAP.

[Rgb]

Originally posted by rossjudson
Chances are HK is worried about the firmware process for the following reason: If incorrectly applied by a consumer, that AVR630 is probably coming in for repair, and that's going to cost money. The audio issue is pretty annoying, and I'd like to get mine upgraded ASAP.

Good observation.

Just thought I'd chime in with a periodic check up to see how things are progressing.

While I don't want to give HK any slack, I recognize the effort and issues HK is faced with in providing a software upgrade to a hardware device.

I recently tried to update the firmware in a DVD burner drive for my PC, and trashed the drive. I had to send it back for a refund. I have updated hundreds of PC components with firmware for over 15 years without a problem.

Part of the blame can be placed on hardware/software design- i.e. it should be basically *impossible* to trash a hardware device with a bad firmware update (stopped before completion, corrupt firmware file, etc) if the device and update procedure are designed properly.

Hopefully, HK is trying to make the procedure as fool proof as possible.

I want them to provide both a software download from their website *and* the option to ship or drop off the unit to a service center fo rthe update. If we can only have one way, then I want the website download and user upgrade option.

[catapult]

The Dolby ProLogicIIx feature is one that is currently in the works, and will be released in conjunction with the "dropout" issue, when ready. Maybe I'm reading too much into that but it sounds like they are still working on the DPL2 code and the dropout fix won't be released until it's done. It could be a while if that's the case - finish writing the code, get it approved by Dolby, etc.

[Johnla]

Originally posted by Rgb
Part of the blame can be placed on hardware/software design- i.e. it should be basically *impossible* to trash a hardware device with a bad firmware update (stopped before completion, corrupt firmware file, etc) if the device and update procedure are designed properly.
Actually, considering how everyones PC's varies from one to another. It's surprising the reflashing works as often and as good as it does.

Unless the company that is providing the reflash, for whatever type of product it is. Has 100% control over all of what software on your PC, and the parts it is made with, it's just never going to be a 100% sure thing. Because without that kind of total control of the PC itself, then making a reflash procedure that is *impossible to trash whatever it's reflashing*, makes that in itself just about impossible to achieve.

[Rgb]

Originally posted by Johnla
Because without that kind of total control of the PC itself, then making a reflash procedure that is *impossible to trash whatever it's reflashing*, makes that in itself just about impossible to achieve.

Of course not. Any well designed piece of hardware with upgradable firmware has a factory firmware chip in unerasable ROM and a reset procedure to flash the programmable EEPROM back to the backup factory ROM, using a button, switch or jumper.

[Johnla]

Originally posted by Rgb
Of course not. Any well designed piece of hardware with upgradable firmware has a factory firmware chip in unerasable ROM and a reset procedure to flash the programmable EEPROM back to the backup factory ROM, using a button, switch or jumper.
Well I have news for you, most PC and other "reflashable" products, such as engine control ECU's for automobiles. Do not have such "back-up" switches or procedures. And if something goes wrong during the "reflash", it most often needs to be either replaced or fixed by the manufacturer. Granted, there are some exceptions. And some do have a "way out" just as Gigabyte does with motherboards and their back-up "Dual Bios" set-up, but again. That's just the example of one brand that's a exception to the norm.

[Ken Ross]

I've got the DPR2005, and I have what may be a dumb question to ask, did you guys turn off the "auto polling" feature on your 630 inputs? On the 2005, you have the option to turn off auto polling if you have nothing connected to the analog inputs. I assume you have the same option with the 630. I'm just wondering if this would have anything to do with the delay/dropouts. Just a thought that you guys probably addressed already.

BTW, there is, on occasion, somewhat of a dropout on the 2005 while changing satellite channels but it doesn't last for anything like 2 seconds. It doesn't seem to happen consistently either on my Sony HD200 HD receiver, but when it does it's usually the transition from 2 different types of DD channels (5.1 to 2.0).

[bassetized]

Ken,
how do you do this? is it done from the remote? i have a 325 with only optical input and i can't find any way to shut off the auto polling.
thanks

[Rgb]

Originally posted by Johnla
And some do have a "way out" just as Gigabyte does with motherboards and their back-up "Dual Bios" set-up, but again. That's just the example of one brand that's a exception to the norm.

Well, the "norm" is rarely "well designed". Gigabyte motherboards are one example of a well designed flashable product ;). I was responding to the word "impossible" in your original post.

[Rgb]

Originally posted by Ken Ross
I've got the DPR2005, and I have what may be a dumb question to ask, did you guys turn off the "auto polling" feature on your 630 inputs? On the 2005, you have the option to turn off auto polling if you have nothing connected to the analog inputs. I assume you have the same option with the 630. I'm just wondering if this would have anything to do with the delay/dropouts. Just a thought that you guys probably addressed already.

BTW, there is, on occasion, somewhat of a dropout on the 2005 while changing satellite channels but it doesn't last for anything like 2 seconds. It doesn't seem to happen consistently either on my Sony HD200 HD receiver, but when it does it's usually the transition from 2 different types of DD channels (5.1 to 2.0).

From:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=422506

Just thought I'd share a recent e-mail from Harmon Kardon support regarding the up and coming DPL IIx update for the AVR 430 & 630:

Hi,

The upgrade for the AVR 430/630 will be available shortly and we wanted
everyone to know specifically what has been included:

1. Dolby Pro Logic 2x
This latest DSP mode from Dolby, provides back L/R surrounds for many
different formats including DD 2.0, DD 5.1, DTS 5.1 and 5.1 analog
inputs from an DVD-Audio/SACD player. Also an extensive control panel is
available for further user refinement/adjusting including a Panorama and
Width controls. Now the user will be able to have 7.1 soundfield from
virtually all currently available popular digital software media and
sources.
2. Dolby Virtual Speaker
The additional modes of 3.0, 4.0 and 5.0 have been included providing
substantial choices available to the user.
3. Digital Polling Feature
Now the user has been provided the options of turning this feature off
by source input if desired.
4. DSP Bootup Time
This has been improved by about 25% over the original version. Any
further decrease in bootup time can cause certain audible byproducts such
as pulses or noise spikes which can be hard and even damaging on
connected loudspeakers. This is the best performance possible within its
present hardware design.
5. Noise Pulse When Adjusting the Subwoofer Level With the DVD 22
This has been improved for the CD audio playback.

Harman/Kardon will provide this at no charge to AVR 430/AVR 630
customers, whereas some competitors have charged as much as $100 for the
upgrade of DPL 2x. The download is straightforward, takes about 1 hour and
requires a Windows PC (OS of 98 SE or higher) with a Serial port,
standard male/female DB9 Serial cable.

***End citation****

So, it appears the polling feature wil be addressed in the firmware update for the 630.

[cgengler]

Can someone explain to me what exactly the Digital Polling Feature is? Is it at all related to DSP bootup time?

Thanks!

[Ken Ross]

Bassetized and Cgengler, on the 2005 you can turn the auto polling feature on or off by input. The idea is that by turning it off, the unit will not search for an analog signal if it detects a break in the digital signal. This analog search would, I think, result in a further audio delay until the digital signal is reacquired. This could contribute (I think) to the delays or dropouts. It sounds like your unit may not have this feature.

[hummer28]

I talked with an HK rep today and was told that the code for the update was finished, but the delay is coming from the complexity of the update. Right now the beta version of the update would cause the consumer to have to perform 20+ steps in updating the firmware. While he couldn't really explain to me how this was so, he sounded more knowledgeable than 9 out of 10 HK reps I've talked to. He told me they are really pushing to get this released by the end of the month (go figure) seeing as how they are getting hundreds of complaints from HK owners (go figure). He also indicated that the code might undergo some changes in order to be successfully launched. We also discussed features of the update. Right now the list that has been going around seems to be accurate. I was also made aware of the possibility that some things may be updated by the consumer and some may have to be updated at an HK service center. The saga continues ……………

[Version]

Please tell me the DPL IIx update will be user servicable. The audio drop-outs eally don't bother me but I bought this unit on the premise of the DPL IIx update.

[attweb]

Well, after getting emails from HK, I decided to go ahead and get a 630. Of course, I was banking on the upgrade being user installable. Does anyone here have experience with their service centers? I know it is impossible to predict, but I am curious to see if anyone thinks I could be losing the receiver for an extended period of time if HK requires the upgrade to be performed by their service centers.

[fLoOdY]

Originally posted by attweb
Well, after getting emails from HK, I decided to go ahead and get a 630. Of course, I was banking on the upgrade being user installable.

If their upgrade procedure procedure is as convoluted as the previous post implied, than I'd say that a service center bench tech would find it as challenging as anybody reading this forum. I can't imagine why service center involvement would be necessary unless there are HK-proprietary tools required.

I suppose that HK could be concerned about potential customer serial port misconfigurations such as flow control, which if munged-up might result in an unbootable product. We don't know yet if they have an installer applet or a procedure to flash with a properly configured terminal session using HyperTerminal or something.

Does anyone here have experience with their service centers? I know it is impossible to predict, but I am curious to see if anyone thinks I could be losing the receiver for an extended period of time if HK requires the upgrade to be performed by their service centers.

I had occasion to have to bring my two month-old AVR 630 to The Service Bench of Norwood MA for a dead center channel. They found an open resistor, which carried an HK replacement parts number. They turned it around in 5 business days and it has been fine ever since.

-Not bad.

Michael ;)

[attweb]

Well, I guess a week wouldn't be that bad. Hopefully, you just need a null modem cable (or a break out box) :) to get a connection to the port. I am assuming they have some sort of file feed capability on the box end, but it could be you have to get it into a read mode and then kick the bytes. If they have that situation a null modem cable can get you into trouble, because the TX leads and/or carrier detect are usually cross wired to clear to send. Not real useful for hardware flow control. But, this is the year 2004, not 1980, so this probably won't be an issue.....I hope. Would be really nice if they have some type of "dumb" terminal support (like vt100) in the box. Who knows what kind of neat tweaking you could do once you connect to it.:D

[Nomarian]

Okay,

I am getting a new AVR-630 unit from a friend that works for HK. I am wondering how I will know if my unit has been updated or not. It was on backorder for about 3 weeks and was finally released this week. Let me know and I will post the info.

[Version]

Check if it has Dolby PL IIx.

[catapult]

Check the manual to see if it mentions DPL2x. They may or may not have updated the manual but it's a place to start. If no joy with the manual, go into the setup menus and tell it you have 7 speakers, even if you don't. Then look in the surround mode menus and see if DPL2x is an option.

[Version]

Recieved this email from H/K

Hello,
Any updates that may be performed are not accessible to end-users
directly. You must bring the device to an authorized service center as
specific control equipment is required.
Take care,

Arghh, not looking good for an easy upgrade path.

[Nomarian]

Hey all,

Just an update. I got my AVR630 in today and the box and manual both state that it has Dolby PL IIx. Hope that helps.

[dazbug]

WOW.so they are now shipping with dpl2??

Nomarian,

How is the 'dropout' issue now? Is it still noticable or is it like most receivers now??? (ie u can't tell at start when dd or dts or thx trailer start)

[Nomarian]

Dazbug,

I will have to let you know as soon as I get it setup. I am actually in the middle of painting the area where it will eventually go. I should hopefully be able to test it this weekend. I will keep you updated.

[M Code]

Originally posted by Nomarian
Hey all,

Just an update. I got my AVR630 in today and the box and manual both state that it has Dolby PL IIx. Hope that helps.

Double check your front panel window, left side..
Does it have Dolby Pro Logic 2x in the lower part of the Dolby Digital logo.. Yes? No?

[ranster]

I got mine about 1 month ago directly from HK and it doesn't have it (on the front panel or the light up display). If I had only waited 1 month!!! :(

[Nomarian]

M Code,

It does have Dolby Pro Logic II under the Dolby Digital Logo. I also cycled through the mode options and Dolby Pro Logic II was one that you could choose and have lit up on the front panel.

I did finally set everything up tonight but am unsure how to test for this audio drop out issue. Someone give me steps and I will try them out. I am so far pretty impressed with the receiver itself.

[dazbug]

Nomarian, are you sure it has Pro Logic 11x and noit getting it confused with normal Pro Logic 11??

[ranster]

Not to stray off topic of DPL IIx, but I have also not found the "audio drop out" issue on my 630. It is only 1 month old, but I'd like to identify this issue (via CD or DVD). Can someone let me which disk to check?

[Nomarian]

Dazbug,

I checked the box and it states it is Dobly Pro Logic IIx. Now the receiver only has Dobly Pro logic II silkscreened on it. I am a newbie to this and am not sure how else to check for Dobly Pro Logic IIx or Dolby Pro Logic II. I checked the manual and it is not updated to say IIx only II.

I thought I was searching just for Dolby Pro Logic II. I didn't know there was a difference between II and IIx. Now I wonder if the box specifically says IIx, if the receiver is IIx.

[vinodk]

The manual should say software version II & should mention prologic 2x. These manuals are posted on Harman audio website. You should check with your dealer.

[captain_ed]

heres an email i recieved today from harman i thought you guys would want to know the same thing over and over but im still getting one

Hello Ed, the AVR 330 does not need a software upgrade to it. The AVR 430/630 will as soon as the upgrade has been confirmed. As soon as that is available it will be released to the public. The units do not have a critical issue with them, it is to update software DSP and to address a one second delay when switching between Digital tracks. The DSP processors take a second to select the correct carrier wave.

Sincerely

Kelly Sanders
Consumer direct support

PS: If replying to this email, please include all previous correspondence. It is the only way I can keep up with your situation. Thank you !

-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Doescher [mailto:bethanyrv@frontiernet.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 2:53 PM
To: Harman Audio
Subject: Harman Audio customer service inquiry

Hi
I a m going to buy one of the Harman avr 330 or the 430 from your remanufacture store my question is simple I would like to know if the avr 330 has the updated software when you ship this item
If not does the 430 have this done before shipping. I guess the 330 does not have a serial port and the 430 does so I want to make sure of this prior to purchasing this item. I understand that the receiver has to be taken to a service center to be applied. Your help would be most appreciated

Thanks
Ed

[Tack]

Does anyone know where to get one that already has the update perfomed?

[Rgb]

Originally posted by ranster
Not to stray off topic of DPL IIx, but I have also not found the "audio drop out" issue on my 630. It is only 1 month old, but I'd like to identify this issue (via CD or DVD). Can someone let me which disk to check?

Simply play several audio CD's from a CD/DVD player connected with TOSlink or coax digital only (no analog connection). Depending on the CD, you will not hear the first 2-3 seconds of each track (it varies from CD to CD).

[kring]

Ranster, It's not really an issue but you can identify it by putting in a DVD that starts with dolby digital 2.0 or PCM, then play a Dolby Digitial 5.1 track. The instance between the system switching from 2.0 to 5.1 there is about a 1 second delay and you can see the speakers on the front panel flicker and align to the audio chanels. I still don't believe it's an issue, but what all the stink is about is when your watching a THX movie and it's about to start, there's that into of the warping THX logo, the reciever usually cuts off the first 1/4 second of that as it's initializing. I could care less... but there are those that spend $20K on a home theater just for that 7 seconds startup theme. those are the only people complaining. HK's nice enough to do something about it. most people could care less about the time between changing formats.

FYI - The delay was intentionally put there by HK to prevent any distortion or damaging signals being passed to the speakers, it waits unit all channels are identified and begin being processed, vs. others recievers just pushing the first bits through potentially harming high end equipment.

Originally posted by ranster
Not to stray off topic of DPL IIx, but I have also not found the "audio drop out" issue on my 630. It is only 1 month old, but I'd like to identify this issue (via CD or DVD). Can someone let me which disk to check?

[JimMac]

I could care less... but there are those that spend $20K on a home theater just for that 7 seconds startup theme. those are the only people complaining. HK's nice enough to do something about it. most people could care less about the time between changing formats.

Hmm, I do not quite agree with the general statement above, when you pay good money for a product such as the AVR430/630 and it does not live up to the standards of other units on the market in terms of drop out delay, you do not need to spend $20K before you feel disenchanted with the equipment. It has been stated that the delay is 1 second, but I believe this to be under estimated, and more like 3 seconds when searching through all inputs. HK is fixing it because it is a problem, not because they are nice.

[overboosted]

So is it safe to say if you find an AVR with DPLIIx it has the dropout fixed?

[ranster]

Thanks to all for the replies. I found this with the THX start-up (maybe I agree it is 1/4 of a second, not that big of a deal to me). I have been playing mostly SACDs and DVD-As, so I wouldn't have found the digital-in dropout. I'll get some CDs ready and check it out. It sounds like analog connections are the go around for this (if needed).

[Nomarian]

I still don't know if I truly have a Dolby PIIx system or not, but I can confirm the audio dropout issue mentioned before. I will probably have to call HK to confirm by serial number.

[rossjudson]

The weird thing about that "drop-out" is that on my 630, you can hear the correct audio signal for a very brief moment. It then cuts out for split-second, then starts again. So...it is correctly identifying and decoding the signal, then stops for some reason.

This occurs for me with DVDs. I notice it when moving between DVD menus or selections...

[blackmax2k1]

Originally posted by rossjudson
The weird thing about that "drop-out" is that on my 630, you can hear the correct audio signal for a very brief moment. It then cuts out for split-second, then starts again. So...it is correctly identifying and decoding the signal, then stops for some reason.

This occurs for me with DVDs. I notice it when moving between DVD menus or selections...

That is exactly the problem. One of the reasons why I got rid of mine.

[Ken Ross]

Originally posted by ranster
Thanks to all for the replies. I found this with the THX start-up (maybe I agree it is 1/4 of a second, not that big of a deal to me). I have been playing mostly SACDs and DVD-As, so I wouldn't have found the digital-in dropout. I'll get some CDs ready and check it out. It sounds like analog connections are the go around for this (if needed).

I've got the DPR2005 and decided to try a THX DVD (Twister) to see if I heard a dropout at the beginning of the start-up....I didn't.

[onement1]

I've been holding out on buying the AVR630 until the issues have been resolved. However, I just read that HK will be releasing new receivers at the end of Sept, one of which is the AVR635. It's a refined version of the 630 with Dolby Pllx and no audio drop outs. You don't suppose this is the "fix" they keep promising for the 630?

You can find the Press Release at the HK web site under "News and Reviews."