New Integra DPS-10.5 THX Ultra Universal Player. HDMI, iLink

[egcarter]

Integra Previews Universal DVD Player at 2004 CES


DPS-10.5 features customizable High Definition scaler, HDMI digital output, iLink for DVD-A/SACD digital output, and THX Ultra certification.
LAS VEGAS (1/8/04) – Integra is previewing its new flagship DVD player to Custom Installers at the 2004 CES here today. The DPS-10.5 is a THX Ultra-certified universal player that delivers the ultimate performance potential from nearly every disc format currently in use, including high resolution DVD-Audio and SACD formats. Advanced features include a sophisticated internal high definition video scaler, and both DVI-compatible HDMI (High Definition Multimedia Interface) and iLink (IEEE 1394) outputs for direct digital output of high resolution audio and video material.

"The DPS-10.5 is designed to do exactly what a high-end source unit is meant to," commented Integra and Custom Installation Product Manager Eric Harper, "which is deliver the audio and video information to processing and display devices in the most transparent way possible."

The DPS-10.5 is the company's first player to include an HDMI output, which is capable of passing video directly to DVI-compatible high definition display devices entirely in the digital domain. This not only prevents degradation of the video signal due to intermediate digital to analog conversion stages, it also enables the use of the player's sophisticated O-Plus FlexScale circuit to upsample video to a variety of customizable formats, including 720p or 1080i high definition standards. This scaling circuitry can also be employed to scale external sources via the player's rear-panel composite and S-Video inputs.

For conventional and older high definition sets, the DPS-10.5 features a high end Analog Devices 216 MHz/14-bit D/A converter, and includes both interlaced and progressive scan component video outputs.. There are also two composite video and two S-video outputs, and all video connections are always active, eliminating the need for extraneous setup menu configuration.

For audio reproduction, the DPS-10.5 features a pair of iLink ports on the rear panel for digital output of DVD-Audio and SACD signals at their highest possible resolution. This not only maintains optimal signal integrity, it also allows for the use of the receiver or processor's bass management circuitry. For DVD-Video, CD, CD-R/RW (including MP3-encoded discs), there are two optical and two coaxial digital outputs, and a full set of 7.1-channel analog outputs ensure maximum compatibility with existing home theater equipment. The player features audiophile-grade Wolfson 192kHz/24-bit audio DACs and Integra's acclaimed VLSC (Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry) to deliver smooth and analog audio. It also includes Integra's enhanced Direct Digital Path to ensure maximum fidelity of audio information delivered to the coaxial digital output jack. For critical listening, the video circuitry can be shut down completely to avoid any possible interference with audio signals.

For custom installation professionals and optimal system integration, the DPS-10.5 includes a bidirectional RS-232 port, IR input and output jacks, and a 12-Volt trigger input. The front-panel LED and display lighting can be adjusted with a four-way dimmer control. All of the player's setup and functions can be controlled with the included preprogrammed/learning remote control.

The Integra DPS-10.5 will be available in April at a suggested retail price of $2500

Integra designs and manufactures premium Home Theater receivers, processors, amplifiers, and DVD players that are specifically designed to meet the needs of custom audio/video systems installers. Systems integration and convergence technology protocols include RS-232, A–BUS, IR and on-board Ethernet for network connectivity and TCP/IP control. Integra has access to vast technical resources, and bears a proud heritage of over 50 years of audio engineering excellence. For more information about Integra and its many fine products, visit www.integrahometheater.com or call 800 225-1946.

[sspears]

Sounds just like the 59 AVi.

[echo7]

My thoughts exactly...why pay more for the Integra badge? Plus, you know Onkyo will release a ringer of this player around the same time, and sell it for less than the Integra model.

[egcarter]

The Onkyo version blurb was posted previously. It's $2k. The Integra Research version is $4k!

Eric

[Krobar]

Eric, are you an HT dealer? (Looking to pre order this player)

[Kevin C Brown]

Will it have the same mediocre de-interlacer and the same mediocre layer change as the Pioneer too?

The 5900 is still where it's at. And I have a 47ai! :)

[Krobar]

I think the deinterlacer has been replaced with the Farjouda and it can deinterlace and scale other sources! Add the better Wolfson dacs and better connectivity to the list and the Integra begins to look quite attractive.

[Kevin C Brown]

Well, one thing I have always liked about Pioneers (except for the 47a which had Cirrus) are the Burr Brown DACs that they've used. But Wolfson also make pretty good DACs too. :)

[dave7]

I realize this thread is getting old now, but is there any news on when this player will hit the stores?

It seems as though the Integra Research RDV 7.1 Pre/Pro won't hit until June (originally it was supposed to be April like the DPS 10.5).

I think the DPS 10.5 with the IR RDV 7.1 will be a powerful combination due to the firewire connection for SACD and DVD-A. Then use the HDMI to the display, or potentially use the RDV 7.1 for HDMI switching when that option becomes available later in the year.

These are things you cannot do with Denon or Pioneer...or anyone else that I know of.

[dave7]

My dealer just confirmed to me that June is when they expect to see the new Integra/Integra Research products.

[Steve Goff]

The DPS-10.5 will use the SIL504 for deinterlacing, and the OPlus Rembrandt 1A for scaling the HDMI output. The player will also deinterlace and scale other sources.

[Krobar]

Thanks for the info Steve. I guess it wont scale on the analogue outs at all and hence may not be of much use to me if I get a CRT. For those in Europe I spoke to Onkyo Germany (HQ for Europe) a month ago and they said the IR RDV-1.1 was due in June but they hadnt heard of the DPS-10.5!!

[Expletive]

Are any of these players available yet? Anyone know anything about the analog section or the mpeg decoder?

John

[dave7]

Not really a lot of info, but they are to be shipping by July 1...apparently. My best guess is that it is based on the Pioneer 59 avi, but with SI de-interlacing and O-flex scaling. Also, it uses Wolfson DACs, but I don't know what DACs the Pioneer uses.

[Kevin C Brown]

Pioneer uses Burr Browns.

[dave7]

We can now resurrect this thread since my local store has one now.

They have moved it around a bit and tested it on various digital displays. They feel the HDMI output is better than component (we should hope so), and it is as nice a picture, if not nicer (if that is a word) than the $11K Farjouda player they have. The owner of the store was not too happy about that.

It was not hooked up when I stopped in today. They needed some cable to connect it to their Qualia projector.

I picked it up, and it felt beefy - for what that is worth. One other thing I noticed; the powercord was quite substantial. Very thick and very flexible...again...for what that is worth.

I will have one when they get more in stock.

[Expletive]

Any info on iLink? The specs dont have iLink checked off but the rear panel clearly shows the jacks. For the record, HDMI is unchecked under the specs as well.

John

[pnichols]

"They feel the HDMI output is better than component (we should hope so)"

Now ....... I'm confused. Does this player output 1080i over component or not or is the comment above referring to 480p over HDMI versus 480p over component?

This brings up another question, does anyone know if the $10K Faroudja DVD player with built-in Faroudja scaler outputs 960i or 1080i over component?

[Kris Deering]

No, none of these players output a scaled resolution via component, it is not allowed per the DVD spec.

[dave7]

My guess is that since the new Integra receiver (and Integra Research pre/pro) has iLink inputs, and they are touting this feature to their dealers, that the iLink outputs in the 10.5 are properly functional. Someone would have to test it to be sure though.

I don't know the details of their comparison between HDMI and component video, but I will say that these folks were quite skeptical of HDMI/DVI (with the exception of the Faroudja player) because the PQ of component video out of a good player was just as good. At least they felt this way until I stopped in yesterday. This change of heart leads me to believe there actually is an improvement.

They probably used the player's video processing for scaling and de-interlacing when trying the HDMI, and maybe just the player's de-interlacing when using component...depending on the display. Perhaps it is not apples to apples, but they would likely try for the best PQ using each scenario.

I am stopping by there again today to drop off some stuff for the owner. I will ask the questions so I can stop guessing at the answers.

Although, once I get one to try, I will know for sure.

Kris - when will you be getting one?

[Steve Goff]

The Onkyo DV-SP1000 has iLink for all audio formats and HDMI for deinterlaced and scaled video (480p, 720p, and 1080i). The HDMI connection also works for two-channel PCM audio and Dolby Digital and DTS. It performs bass managment on both DVD-A and SACD, apparently at a fixed 80Hz crossover point, but the manual does not mention crossover slope. The speaker distance settings don't apply to SACD.

I suspect that the RDV-1.1 and DPS-10.5 will be similarly limited, as they are based on the same core technology. The Onkyo unit has s-video and composite inputs that can be deinterlaced and scaled. The Integra player adds a component input, and the Integra Research player adds to that an HDMI input, though I think it is just a pass-through.

[Kris Deering]

Hey Steve

Didn't see that you were from Olympia, nice to see another PNW member. Maybe we can hang out sometime!

[Steve Goff]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Hey Steve

Didn't see that you were from Olympia, nice to see another PNW member. Maybe we can hang out sometime!

Sounds good! I've met Stacey, but not most of the Puget Sound contingent.

[doublethink]

cool

[dave7]

Well - back to the subject for a brief moment...I saw the 10.5 yesterday (very briefly) on a Qualia. Very nice...but was it the 10.5 or the Qualia that made it so nice? The guys at the store seem to be pretty happy with it.

I should have one by next week to judge for myself. I really hope I am not disappointed (on audio as well as video).

Kris - when will you get one for the shootout?

BTW...I miss the PNW! It has been a few years.

[Kevin C Brown]

Dave- I'd be personally curious as to what the layer change is... :)

[Kris Deering]

We should get one in for the benchmark, but with CEDIA coming up most of the press relations guys are pretty busy right now I imagine so it maybe later.

[dave7]

Kris -

What does your gut think about the 10.5 even though you haven't seen/heard it? Tough question I know...but in your mind, does it have potential.

I ask for obvious reasons, but perhaps not so obvious is that I am wondering how Integra intends to justify $2.5K for this universal when it has no TA for SACD, and apparently, a fixed crossover point for its BM. This scenario looks bad on the features front when Denon's new 3910 (for $1.2K) will have TA for DVD-A and SACD, and BM for both too, and with multiple crossover points. The difference between these two players on the video side seems to be Faroudja processing on the Denon (who know about the so called "macroblocking") against Silicone image on the 10.5. Scaling - who knows on both...certainly not me.

So- the bottom line will be - is the Integra's execution that much better that its feature set deficiency will not be an issue, and performance alone will justify doubling the price when compared to the 3910?

Also - there is Denon's reliability issues (my source on Denon's reliability is not this forum). I have never heard of an issue with Integra. Nevertheless, the new Denon products look promising.

Let's not touch on the 5910 until it is at least visible on the horizon.

For the moment, I am player-less (sold my Lexicon) and need something NOW. I will try the 10.5 no matter what.

[Kris Deering]

Hey Dave

Tough to call. I haven't been overly impressed with Integra's offerings so far, as you can tell by the results on their benchmark tests. But those players all used all in one MPEG decoder/de-interlacing solutions. This time around they are using a good de-interlacer and as long as it is implemented correctly it should be good to go there. I am not sure what MPEG decoder they are going to be using or how the analog stage will stack up. As for scaling, again until I see it and test it I won't know. Sometimes you can look at a feature set and give a good guess, but in this case there are too many unknown variables.

The thing that bothers me at the moment is the whole Onkyo/Integra/Integra Research thing. So far I have found that the differences, DVD player wise, haven't been that significant, especially considering the price difference. The IR player features that Apogee clock in it but I have reservations on how much that is really going to improve things. I am using a Arcam DV-27A right now and it has three seperate clocks in it for its audio stages and while it does sound excellent I haven't heard a huge sonic improvement over the other players I've had recently.

[dave7]

On the video side - since this player is based on the 59 AVI with an upgraded de-interlacer and a different scaler, I am hopeful it will do better than the 59 AVI in your evaluation, and obviously better than Integra's previous offerings.

Audio is a question still, and value is a question - especially with the 3910 around the corner...well supposedly around the corner.

[bills2k]

Hi Dave:

Where in PA did you audition the Qualia and the Integra? Also, is Onkyo coming out with a similar unit?

[Kris Deering]

Where did you hear the player is based on the 59AVi?

[dave7]

Oh no:o Why do I get the feeling that your question is rhetorical?

I got this info from Overture Audio back last February or so. My conversation with them at that time was concerning the Lexicon RT-10 and the Theta Compli. At one point the tech guy there told me these two players were based on the Pioneer 47 platform (I think he said 47AVi...I am not certain on that), but the new, to be released in April (back then anyway) Integra 10.5 and Integra Research RDV 1.1 were going to be based on the newer 59 AVi. That was the player they were excited about.

Since I had mentioned this several times on the forum without anyone questioning it...I assumed it was true. After all, this information came from a reputable/credible dealer.

Now that you question it...I ask myself "why would I trust that source of information!"

Kris, what do you know?

(I seem to ask that of you a lot)

[Kevin C Brown]

I have also heard the new Onkyo/Integra 1000/10.5 were based on the 59AVi (in fact, a local dealer I visited this past weekend has them and mentioned that connection). I guess we'll know soon enough once more people get them (like Kris! :) ).

[dave7]

OK, now it appears that the jury is out on the video on this player.

Some back-to-back tests have been done with other players, and the video on the other players were comparable or better. Still some tweaking was being done, but it is not as cut-and-dry good as I originally thought.

So the bottom line is that we will have to try it ourselves before passing judgment, but it might not be the ticket that I was hoping for.

Audio too is somewhat suspect, but again, we will have to test it before passing judgment.

[Rob Kramer]

Audio too is somewhat suspect

Huh? Are we still talking about the Integra? Audio wise, Onkyo's version (sp1000) beat out the Marantz 9500 and the Denon 3910. Will the Integra model be different or are you just questioning the French reviewer?

[Kris Deering]

I don't know what this player is based on. I have a request in for them and will know when I get them in. I will add that to the benchmark writeup when I figure it out.

[mattepntr]

Are there any reviews anywhere for this unit yet?

[zeropoint]

You might like to see the interior of the sp1000 here http://www.onkyo.net/extranet/presse/download/news/DV-SP1000E_Open.jpg..

[Steve Goff]

Originally posted by Rob Kramer
Huh? Are we still talking about the Integra? Audio wise, Onkyo's version (sp1000) beat out the Marantz 9500 and the Denon 3910. Will the Integra model be different or are you just questioning the French reviewer?

I'm not sure why you say this. Have you compared the Onkyo player to the 3910? I don't believe that the Wolfson DACs (WM8719) beat out the Burr-Brown DACs (DSD 1796) on objective measurements, or that the ICs employed in the Onkyo analog section (5534s in the Integra version) are any better than those used in the 3910, or that the analog topology in the Onkyo is better.

[Rob Kramer]

Have you compared the Onkyo player to the 3910

Someone else has:
http://www.hifissimo.com/store/loadpage.cgi?user_id=9732&file=text/be_marantzdv9500.html

[mattepntr]

This goes to the thread regarding DVI/HDMI and the crackdown
on players with component HD (upconverted 720p 1080i) outputs.

From the Integra DPS 10.5 manual....

HDMI OUT
This HDMI socket outputs digital video and audio
and can be connected to an HDMI input on a compatible
TV or other component.

HD VIDEO OUT COMPONENT
These BNC sockets output HD COMPONENT video and can
be connected to the HD component video input on an HDTV
or projector.
When a video signal is fed to a VIDEO IN socket (S-video or
composite), and the video input source is set to External,
that video signal is upconverted to progressive and output here.

Interesting. Anybody know more about this?

[Steve Goff]

Originally posted by Rob Kramer
Someone else has:
http://www.hifissimo.com/store/loadpage.cgi?user_id=9732&file=text/be_marantzdv9500.html

And if I could read it....

[dave7]

Bob-

I am not questioning anyone, just relaying an observation.

My friends were in a position to compare it to some Krell players, so maybe not apples-to-apples.

Like I said - jury is out. I really hope it turns out to be good.

[MRJAZZZ]

I just installed the 10.5 over the weekend . It is feeding a SIM 500 LINK ( 3 CHIP DLP). Initial observations are very, very promising. In both 720 p, (hdmi out to SIM) and a 480 interlaced out ( with SIM doing all the deinterlacing, and scaling), i am getting the best looking video i have yet scene from the SIM.

We currently have in house, a PIONEER 59AVI, DENON 5900, and the new ESOTERIC DV50S( this unit, too is very nice, however we are primarily using it in our music only room). All the just mentioned DVD players, have their strengths, and weakness;s, however the INTEGRA, seems to be very well balanced. Very "film like" picture, with great dimensionality, and it produces video that is strikingly clean looking, with minimal noise ( the player doesn't seem to be adding anything, that i can tell,(noise wise) and perhaps may in fact have some thing going on in the circuity that is removing some noise( mosquito noise reduction circuit, perhaps?). Any way, so far this unit is really delivering the goods. Is beautifully built, and has an excellent feature set. Even has an audio/video sync delay, to allow for lip sync issues. Finally, the sound, for red book play back is superb, easily better than the above mentioned players( save the TEAC ESOTERIC).

CHEERS, TOM

[dave7]

Holy Cow that's a line-up of players!

The question I have is how is the video when fed digitally to the projector in it's native resolution (in my case, a lowly single chip DLP @ 720p)?

[Steve Goff]

Originally posted by MRJAZZZ
I just installed the 10.5 over the weekend.... Finally, the sound, for red book play back is superb, easily better than the above mentioned players( save the TEAC ESOTERIC).

CHEERS, TOM

Tom, Have you compared SACD and DVD-A? I'm most interested on how it sounds vis-a-vie the others on high-res audio. Thanks.

[MRJAZZZ]

Sorry, have not had time to play back any SACD, or DVDA. However i cant emphasize, enough,how good RED BOOK is. So would be extremely surprised if SACD & DVDA, were not of a very high caliber( I personally like the PIONEER, sound wise, more than the DENON, and the ESOTERIC, is substantially better than either. The INTEGRA comes surprisingly close to the ESOTERIC, however i did not have them side by side, at the same time. Currently the ESOTERIC resides in a two channel, music only environment. When i get time, i will post on SACD & DVDA, sound quality.

CHEERS, TOM

[mattepntr]

bump.

Any new impressions of this unit?

[dave7]

When I pressed for more info from the folks that compared it side-to-side with Krell products, Krell was the clear winner. Only Audio was tested though, NOT video as I was originally told.

I don't think this discredits the Integra at all. One would certainly hope than the Krells (more than one player was compared, but I don't know which ones)would outperform the Integra...or the price difference could never be Justified.

I am very interested in what Tom has to say.

Tom, any chance of comparing the HDMI output of the Integra to any of your other players?

***edit - scaled to 720p that is.

[mattepntr]

I second that request. I'm interested in finding out if this player suffers
from the dreaded HDMI to DVI black and white levels bug talked about
here...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=385388

[MRJAZZZ]

With more time spent with this unit, I like it all the more. Definitely best video performance i have had yet. I have encountered one glitch, though. For some reason the unit no longer will " HAND SHAKE" at 720 p, or 1080i, (DVI out, from the INTEGRA) to my SIM 500HT LINK (3 chip) dlp projector . Still pass;s a picture at 480 p, just not scaled higher. I realize there is a macro protection devise that i believe could have some how gone out of spec, but other than that, have no clue why there is no picture any more (worked for first few days) at the higher up scaled RES;S. I also have to add, that this poses no problem for me, as I have not been a big proponent of DVI up scaled images, anyway. Everyone speaks of this feature as the " HOLY GRAIL" of DVD performance. I beg to differ. With good scaling and deinterlacing on the analogue side, (weather from the projector or the actual DVD player being used) you still can get very high quality pictures. In my set up, 480 I out to my projector just rocks. I prefer it to 480 p, at the moment. MY brief exposure to up scaled 720 p images from the 10.5 INTEGRA, ( while it was working) didn't look all that good do me. There was a definate green push to the picture ( as i under stand this, some dvi outs are set for pc color, and some are not, and this can lead to a green push). Don't get me wrong, while i was able to go in and adjust for this green push, (at the projector, not the DVD player), the over all picture looked very nice,up scaled , DVI OUT, however the 480 I out still looks nicer (more natural color saturation, and due to some processing capabilities of the SIM projector, when it "sees" a 480 I signal, it also looked smoother, and more artifact free, than DVI.

Still have not had a chance to listen to SACD or DVDA, yet. Will do so this weekend.

CHEERS, TOM

[mattepntr]

Thanks a lot for the feedback! Keep it coming!

Rick

[scottyb]

I'm sure this has been covered, but can HDMI be converted to DVI?

Thanks,
Scott

[mattepntr]

Sure. Just pick up an HDMI>DVI cable and you're all set.

Rick

p.s.- HDMI is DVI plus the ability to pass audio as well as video.

[mattepntr]

Bump-ola.

I bought this player recently, and it just rocks! The audio (on DD) is
astounding, and the hi-rez music I've played in it sounds wonderful.
I'm getting a plasma display on Tuesday (Panny EDTV) and I can't
wait to hook it up so I can really evaluate the video capabilities of
this unit.

Tom, do you have any further thoughts on how this unit compares
to the others you mentioned?

(The rest of my system-
Anthem AVM30 pre/pro
outlaw 770 200x 7 multichannel amp
Ascend acoustics speakers
CMT- 340's across the front
CBM- 170's surrounds and rears
HSU VTF-3 MKII sub)

[DynamiteD]

MRJAZZ, do you know if the iLink works on this player. I have a Pioneer 59TXi and I'm debating between this player and the Pioneer 59AVi. How is the video quality compared with the Pioneer. Any info is appreciated.

[mattepntr]

bump.

[dave7]

Regarding the bump -

I am trying to get both the 10.5 and a 3910 in my system to do some back-to-back viewing and listening. A while ago a dealer offered for me to take a 59 AVi home for a demo too. I will ask if I can take him up on it now.

[Kevin C Brown]

Dave- Let us all know (somehow) if you get a chance to do this. If you could somehow throw in the Marantz 9500, you'd have all the players I'm personally considering. ;)

[dave7]

Is the marantz even out yet?

[Kevin C Brown]

Yes, but probably not here in the States. I came across a French review that compared it to the 59AVi and the 3910.

http://www.hifissimo.com/store/loadpage.cgi?user_id=8368&file=text/be_marantzdv9500.html

[dave7]

Do you have any idea what the French review says?

I just watched and listened to the 3910 for the first time. I spent no time being particular on setting it up. PQ is much better than my Lexicon RT-10 (sold), I guess no surprise there. But audio is not nearly as good as the Lex. I did a quick listen to an SACD and a couple of CDs. Just not as involving and "right there" as the Lexicon.

I am not so sure this can be considered as unexpected. The Lexicon is highly revered by audiophiles, so I would hope the extra MSRP would mean something. My conclusion is that you really do get what you pay for. The Lexicon is better at audio, but the 3910 (at first glimpse anyway) is already better at video. (BTW - I did NOT try digital two channel through the Coax. I only listened to the music using the analogue outputs.)

I won't be able to audition the 59 AVi. They are in too short of supply. I will try for the Integra 10.5 in the next few days, or over the weekend.

[Kevin C Brown]

Do you have any idea what the French review says?

Naagh... :) I figured somebody more motivated than I am would run it through babelfish or something.

[dave7]

I tried that before without any luck. I have an old version of "powertranslater" software, but I can't get it to install on my computer.

[Rob Kramer]

I tried that before without any luck
You can plug the paragraphs into Babel Fish for a translation.

Onkyo easily wins best audio. Marantz and Denon battle it out for the scraps.

Denon fans like to point out that while the reviewer preferred the Onkyo, he said that it is not worth the price. However, if you look at the price (in the review), you will see that the Onkyo (in France) cost almost 4-times as much as the Denon (5000 vs 1500). In the USA, the price is a lot closer.

[dave7]

I am hopeful that I can try a 10.5 at the very least for one overnight test, at the most over two nights (if the store is closed on Sunday). I will be very attentive to video first, with the idea that perhaps the Denon can be modded to bring the audio up to snuff.

I cannot believe I am thinking of buying a brand new piece then dumping money into it to "see" if it can be any good!

I am used to the Lexicon sound, so perhaps I am expecting too much on the audio side. The Denon is very convenient with BM & TA though. At one time I was very close to making all my speakers equidistant to avoid the TA issue, but I have just put it off. I can still do this, but it just takes time. I'd rather listen/watch my system and play with my kids, than get dirty working on physical set-up.

At any rate, I will post my feelings when I get the 10.5 t try.

[dave7]

Hey-

I just got one home to demo.

I have not even hooked it up yet, but I must say it is VERY impressive. The unit is beefy, heavy, and very solid feeling. The supplied cables are actually worth keeping and using...at least they look and feel that way (I am currently using Kimber and Shunyata). Nothing like what you normally get.

I will spend a little more time tuning the 3910 I have here too, then hook up the 10.5.

A busy weekend for me, I have kids and the weather is beautiful during the day, so please hang in there with me. I'll have to return the 10.5 Monday morning so this audition will be brief...unless I talk them into letting me keep it.

[DynamiteD]

dave7, any updates. I'm looking to buy this player or the Pioneer 59AVi, so any impressions would be appreciated.

[dave7]

First off, when you simple see this thing, you won't be thinking about the 59 AVi anymore. It is beautifully built with a heavy duty and elegant faceplate. Details like the tray and the buttons are what you would expect to find on a $10K player.

The video too is the nicest I have seen through the HDMI output. I did not view from any other output. Compared to the Denon 3910, the two players were very similar, but when there ever was a difference the Integra was the better image. It seemed to really "pop" more, but I would not stand firm in that observation. I own a 3910, so I really wanted it to be a dead heat...it was close, but the 10.5 was better...as it should be for twice the price.

The downside is that there does not seem to be any user adjustment to the picture when it is outputting from the HDMI. That is not a deal-breaker in my book though.

On Audio...I will know more tomorrow compared to the 3910, but it was not quite what my Lexicon RT-10 was. At first listen it is better to me than the 3910, but I will listen more tonight when I am not distracted. Compared to the Lexicon, I felt it just sounded a little thinner or less 3D and fluid. I really don't know how to describe it. The 10.5 was a very new unit, so maybe there is a break-in period. I did not believe in that stuff before, but the Lexicon actually did get better over the first month or two.

For now, I am taking a wait and see approach. I just wish someone like Midwright or Underwood would offer some sort of modest audio modification upgrade. If the sound was a little better, it would be a no-brainer. I really like it, the build (it weighs in at 27 lbs!), the appearance, the fit and finish and the attention to detail.

I really want to buy this player, but I am obsessing right now. I want it all in one neat package...why can't anyone do that?!!

[DynamiteD]

Thanks Dave,
I think I'm going to pull the trigger on this player later this week. I own a Denon 2200 and love the picture. I know the 10.5 has the same de-interlacer so I have high video expectations from this player. As for audio I will use I-Link due to the fact I own a Pioneer 59TXi.

[Kevin C Brown]

Dave- How is the layer change delay?

[dave7]

Kevin,

Layer change is tough since I didn't have it for that long. In the asteroid scene of Attack of the Clones, on my old Lexicon there was a big delay when Obi-Wan's ship appears out of hyperspace (Jeeze I sound like a Star Trek Freak!). With the Integra, there was a very slight hesitation when Jango Fet's ship heads toward the asteroid field, just before the camera switches back to Obi-Wan. It was a noticeably shorter delay...perhaps I should describe the Lexicon as a brief pause, while the Integra was a momentary (virtually unnoticeable) hesitation.

What is interesting is that it happened at a different place in the movie compared to the Lexicon, and my super-cheap Panasonic.

BTW - the 3910 was absolutely identical in this regard (both when it happened and how long it was).

Another interesting observation was that the movie menu was different between the 10.5 and the 3910. You know when you go to select a particular chapter, the way the DVD displays and "animates" the main menu, the music, and the sub-menus - they were all different between the two players while using the exact same disk. This is not good or bad, it was just different...I wonder why, and also how many other things are different.

I hope this helps a little. I am a bit nervous when people base their purchasing decisions on my comments when I only spent a couple a hours with it.

[Kevin C Brown]

Cool. Every little bit of info helps. :)

[Expletive]

Anyone know the MPEG decoder/deinterlacer in this unit? It may give a hint on how it would perform on the Secrets tests.

John

[Phasor]

I am demoing a 10.5 that I picked up from my dealer today. I must say that I agree with the others about the redbook playback...the music becomes very involving and emotional. On the video side I only have it connected to the component outputs as I am waiting for a HDMI to DVI convertor (I have a DVI cable to my projector). But the preliminary listening and viewing convinces me that this player is a keeper...I will update after further listening and viewing...

Phasor

[DynamiteD]

Sounds like this player is a winner. Let us know Phasor, I'm looking to get a new DVD player soon.

[dave7]

Expletive-

It uses Silicone Image deinterlacer. I can't help you on the decoder. Video is really nice looking though. I had to give mine back (I had it for demo purposes). But I am looking for a way to own one. I have a 3910 right now, and for the price the 3910 is very impressive. Check out:

http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?class=DVD&m=DPS-10.5&p=i

for info on the 10.5.

[Expletive]

Originally posted by dave7
Expletive-

It uses Silicone Image deinterlacer. I can't help you on the decoder. Video is really nice looking though. I had to give mine back (I had it for demo purposes). But I am looking for a way to own one. I have a 3910 right now, and for the price the 3910 is very impressive. Check out:

http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?class=DVD&m=DPS-10.5&p=i

for info on the 10.5.

Thanks for the info. Do you know how to check for the 'chroma bug'? I'd be interested to see if this player exhibits it.

Also, what are the bass management options in this player for bass management in DVDA/SACD and redbook? I assume BM for SACD requires a conversion to PCM (like the 5900)?

Thanks for any info you can provide...

John

[dave7]

The BM is important to me too so I checked it in the manual. It appears to work for both SACD and DVD-A. I do not know if it does it in native DSD for SACD though...that is beyond my scope.

For Chroma bug - the Integra players in the past have been OK in this regard. Who knows if that is any indication for the 10.5 though. I first thought this player was based on the Pioneer 59 AVi, but the menus are different as is the de-interlacing solution and the DACs. Probably more too, but those alone suggests it might be Onkyo's own player, or at least based on something other than the popular Pioneer.

For some reason I have not seen the chroma bug on my projector (a Sharp 10K) and I have had a Theta Carmen II and the Lexicon RT-10. Both have the CUE and both based on the Pioneer platform. The best I could figure (from what Dale Adams at DVDO explained to me at one point) is that there may be something in the projector's processing that curbs the effect. Who knows, but it has not been an issue for me so I don't concern myself with it.

The DPS 10.5 does not offer any Time Alignment for DVD-A and SACD. It has the TA feature in it, but that only applies to the analogue outputs for DD/DTS type of output.

[Rob Kramer]

Boy, "Senior Member" sounds impressive. I wish I could feel like I earned it (I don't & I didn't)

You have been promoted to "Advanced Member". Good job! Keep up the good work.

[Phasor]

Well, I have had the 10.5 now for a few days...today received my DVI to HDMI adapter so I was able to view at 720P and I must admit that I thought the picture was stunning...However, I only watched the opening storm scene in "Open Range"....but I was very happy with the quality of the video. There are two sets of component video outputs on the back, one outputs at 480i and it uses standard RCA jacks. The other is BNC connectors that you can scale up to 1080i...I haven't used these as I don't have a cable with BNC connectors but both the regular component and HDMI to my eyes produce excellent video.

Now as to SACD...I have only several hours of listening time in, but what I am hearing is very good and I believe that it will only get better as it breaks in. I think I am going to purchase this unit as the dealer made me an offer if I want this unit I can have it for $1850.00. I was waiting for the Denon 3910 but I think I will keep this one...I have not listened to any DVD audio discs as I don't own any.

My equipment consists of:

Fosgate FAP-T1 pre processor
Fosgate 1000.5 five channel amp
Rotel 990BX 2 channel amp for rear surrounds
Vandersteen 2CE signatures each with it's own Vandersteen 2W sub
Vandersteen V2W for the LFE channel
Vandersteen VCC-1 center
Vandersteen VSM-1's for rear surrounds
Vandersteen 1C's for the side surrounds
Runco 510 projector with Stewart 92" diag Greyhawk screen

I also hope like Dave does that maybe Dan Wright might get ahold of one of these players and come up with a mod for the multi channel audio section to make it sound a little more liquid..just my taste..it sounds pretty good now...but there is always room for improvement.

Phasor:D

[Steve Goff]

I don't think the component jacks really output 1080i, since that would violate DVD Forum rules.

[Kevin C Brown]

$1850 is a great deal. :)

[Phasor]

Originally posted by Steve Goff
I don't think the component jacks really output 1080i, since that would violate DVD Forum rules.

You may be correct..I don't have any BNC cables to test this. However, my dealer said that he did try it and it did upscale...I guess that I am going to have to get som BNC to RCA adapters and try it myself. I do know that it will do it over HDMI/DVI.

The first thing that gets your attention with this player is the build quality...it is built like a brick ****house...:)

I will continue listening and viewing the player today. I have to make my final decision on purchasing it...but I am 99% sure that I will keep it.

Phasor

[Phasor]

Originally posted by Kevin C Brown
$1850 is a great deal. :)

Yep...that probably is the deal maker for me...:D

Phasor

[PooperScooper]

Phasor,
What DVD player were you using? What did you use to calibrate the 10.5 when you hooked it up? Thanks.

larry

[Phasor]

Originally posted by PooperScooper
Phasor,
What DVD player were you using? What did you use to calibrate the 10.5 when you hooked it up? Thanks.

larry

I was using a Sony 999ES. I used DVE and Avia test discs.

Phasor

[Expletive]

Originally posted by Phasor
Well, I have had the 10.5 now for a few days...today received my DVI to HDMI adapter so I was able to view at 720P and I must admit that I thought the picture was stunning...However, I only watched the opening storm scene in "Open Range"....but I was very happy with the quality of the video. There are two sets of component video outputs on the back, one outputs at 480i and it uses standard RCA jacks. The other is BNC connectors that you can scale up to 1080i...I haven't used these as I don't have a cable with BNC connectors but both the regular component and HDMI to my eyes produce excellent video.

Now as to SACD...I have only several hours of listening time in, but what I am hearing is very good and I believe that it will only get better as it breaks in. I think I am going to purchase this unit as the dealer made me an offer if I want this unit I can have it for $1850.00. I was waiting for the Denon 3910 but I think I will keep this one...I have not listened to any DVD audio discs as I don't own any.

My equipment consists of:

Fosgate FAP-T1 pre processor
Fosgate 1000.5 five channel amp
Rotel 990BX 2 channel amp for rear surrounds
Vandersteen 2CE signatures each with it's own Vandersteen 2W sub
Vandersteen V2W for the LFE channel
Vandersteen VCC-1 center
Vandersteen VSM-1's for rear surrounds
Vandersteen 1C's for the side surrounds
Runco 510 projector with Stewart 92" diag Greyhawk screen

I also hope like Dave does that maybe Dan Wright might get ahold of one of these players and come up with a mod for the multi channel audio section to make it sound a little more liquid..just my taste..it sounds pretty good now...but there is always room for improvement.

Phasor:D

Do you know how to test for the "chrima-bug" or other core measurements? I personally dont but id be interested to see how this player responds 'on the bench.'

John

[Phasor]

I do not know how to test for this bug....send me a link for instructions or tell me how and I will give it a go....

Phasor

[dave7]

Also, were you able to make picture adjustments in the player? When I demoed it, I could change the values, but the image did not change when using HDMI scaled to 720p.

Not a deal-breaker for me because it is so nice.

[Q of BanditZ]

*blatant jealousy* = I'd love to be in a position where I could say $1850 is a "great deal" on anything and feel good about it. */blatant jealousy* :p

In all seriousness, though, I really am looking forward to seeing tests and shootouts involving this unit against the other big hitters out there.

If I had the money, certainly, I'd be fool not to consider this amazing machine. WOW!

[PooperScooper]

Originally posted by dave7
Also, were you able to make picture adjustments in the player? When I demoed it, I could change the values, but the image did not change when using HDMI scaled to 720p.

Not a deal-breaker for me because it is so nice.
This could be a good thing. This means the video stream stays digital. I remember reading here somewhere that "picture adjustments" are usually done in the analog domain - I could be wrong. It may be a pain if you have to have more than one device on a single HDMI/DVI input with only 1 setting allowed on the input.

larry

[Steve Goff]

No, the picture adjustments in onther upscaling players are done in the digital domain, in the FLI23xx chip, usually. I have a scaler that ofloads some picture adjustments to an FPGA, so as to do them in higher resolution (greater bit depth).

[Phasor]

Originally posted by dave7
Also, were you able to make picture adjustments in the player? When I demoed it, I could change the values, but the image did not change when using HDMI scaled to 720p.

Not a deal-breaker for me because it is so nice.

I see the values change then it goes to a blue screen then the picture comes back. I'm not sure if it is changing either as all the settings look about the same...I will have to play with the Runco and see if it is in fact changing resolutions....however, at any of the settings the picture looks very good to me...if there is a difference it is very small...should there be a huge difference?

Phasor

[DynamiteD]

Pulled the trigger on this player. A few impressions. First off it is a very good looking player, built very well. The tray very quiet and the trey is not your run of the mill hard plastic, it has a rubbery feel too it. So far I've only listened to Dark Side of the Moon in SACD over iLink to my Pioneer 59TXi. The two players recognized each other right away. The Pioneer displays DPS 10.5 on its' display so, so far so good. I know it's over iLink so the sound isn't entirely attributable to the player but hearing DSOTM like this reminded me of the time I first heard a CD, chrystal clear and very involving. I've heard it a few times in this forum but I'll say it anyway, when I heard it I thought, "So this is what high resolution music sounds like." Coming from a Pioneer 563a, this is much better. One feature that I don't think has been mentioned is this player's ability to de-interlace and upscale video feeds from other components, similar to the Yamaha RX-Z9. I'll get some pictures posted over the weekend. I don't have a great TV at the moment so I won't be able to give good testimony on the player's video until I take it to work to A/B it against the Arcam DV79 and the Meridian G91/98. More to come, great player so far, very easy to look at too.

[mattepntr]

I posted this in the Plasma display forum as well, but thought I should
post here also...

I'm connecting my DPS 10.5 to my Panasonic TH-42PWD6UY EDTV
plasma television via HDMI/DVI cable. I'm seeing what looks like green
video noise running all across the screen, most noticeable in black areas,
like the black bars on letterboxed DVD's. I'm still an HT newbie, so if
anyone has any ideas on what this could be, I'd appreciate the help.

Thanks in advance.
Rick

[mattepntr]

Also, with the HDMI/DVI connection, the Integra will only
let me select "source" as the resolution, I assume because
the TV is "telling" the Integra it's highest resolution is 480p.

Or am I wrong? Should I be able to override this "handshake"
info and select a higher resolution if I chose to? I want to
experiment with different resolutions and how they impact
(or don't) on PQ. If I can only choose "source" for output
resolution over HDMI with an EDTV, then the Integra is
operating normally. If others are able to select different
resolutions regardless of their TV's native resolution, then
my Integra is messed up somehow.

And then there's the HD Component OUT option. According to
the manual, this will enable variable HD resolutions to be output
here. I've ordered a set of BNC component cables to try this out.
I'm assuming this is a "blind" connection that won't know what
kind of display you're connecting to, so the full range of supported
resolutions should be available. Anyone else tried this stuff out?
Isn't being an early-adopter fun??

Rick

[DynamiteD]

I thought EDTV are Enhanced Definition because they can't display true HD resolutions such as 1080i or 720p. If that's the case then the player is operating normally. Definitley try the component connection and see what happens. Being a troubleshooter for an audio/video install company I can say that some connections can be very finicky in how they are set up. Only time will tell.

[PooperScooper]

Rick,
I replied to your post in the plasma forum. Also, it's interesting that the Integra manual says it will output HD resolutions via component output. I think dave7 mentioned that too. Via component out, there is no "handshaking" protocol being conducted between the 2 devices. So it should do as you tell it. :) And as I mentioned in the plasma forum, you need to calibrate the player with the plasma. Get a copy of Digital Video Essentials if you haven't already.

Steve, thanks for the clarification.

There's an Integra dealer near me, I hope they have a 10.5 that I can take a look at it today.

larry

[dave7]

Isn't there a button on the front that allows you to choose the resolution? It should come up in the display what the resolution is set to. When I demoed, it was set to my resolution, so I did not mess with it.

I also remember a separate sheet in the box explaining the resolution setting specifically.

BTW pooper, I never tried component.

[Phasor]

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
*blatant jealousy* = I'd love to be in a position where I could say $1850 is a "great deal" on anything and feel good about it. */blatant jealousy* :p

In all seriousness, though, I really am looking forward to seeing tests and shootouts involving this unit against the other big hitters out there.

If I had the money, certainly, I'd be fool not to consider this amazing machine. WOW!

LOL...it is a lot of money...I have been saving for a year to get a new universal disc player...I was going to get a Denon but this opportunity presented itself first...I am happy with the player...there maybe better, but I haven't seen them. I tried LOTR yesterday and I was very pleased with the picture...the settings say it is at 720P and I believe that is where I will leave it set.

Phasor

[PooperScooper]

BTW pooper, I never tried component.

Ok, Dave, thanks. Now that I look, Phasor mentioned scaling over component.

larry

[Oswald Pascual]

Denon 5900 also has Burr Brown DAC's I think. Now if they could only fix all the bugs on the 5900, speed up the MENU's, add HDMI output, and be able to play WM9 DVD's, then it would be a hands down winner for me now.

Ozzie

[mattepntr]

After playing around with my setup this morning, here's some more info
about my "green dots" problem...

I realized that the clearest way to see the problem on my Panny EDTV was to
let the Integra start it's screen saver, which is the white Integra logo floating
around on a black screen. I see an upside-down triangle-shaped array of green
dots laid out in horizontal lines. These dots are laid out in "dash" patterns (i.e.
7 or 8 dots across, then 3 or 4 pixels of black space, then more green dots etc.)
Vertically, there is a single line of these dots, then 4 or 5 pixels of black space,
then another line. This continues down from the top of the screen where they
run all the way across, then they start to converge down to a point about 2/3's
of the way down the screen. The downward "point" of the triangle is off center,
about 1/3 of the way from the right hand edge of the screen. There aren't any
of these dots at the bottom portion of the screen.
The weird part is, when I'm watching a letterboxed DVD, these dots DON'T appear
in the picture area, even during dark or black areas of the picture. They are definitely
noticeable from 6' away. You perceive the dots as a slight flickering in the letterboxed
area. It's distracting.
I think it's definitely some form of interference, either in the Integra, the DVI blade
in the Panny, the cable, or some other source. It's definitely not dithering. I can see
dithering if I'm VERY close to the screen. It's not a problem. I don't think calibration
is the answer.

[PooperScooper]

I got to see the 10.5 today. Good and bad scenario. It was connected to a Pio 910HD plasma via media box in a so-so setting lighting-wise. And they only had 1 DVD to watch. The good part was that I could compare it to a 59avi which I've never seen. Right now I'd say the Integra has the edge in PQ. Tomorrow I'm going back with some of my own DVDs. If it continues to do as well (or better) I'll probably get it. I did get a chance to look at the manual some and I did not get the impression that it will upscale via component. There's two sets of component outputs, RCA and BNC. The manual says "interlaced" for the RCA and "progressive" for the BNC. It also will take composite and s-video inputs as pass-through and send them out component (not sure about HDMI). As others have said, it's an impressive DVD player. I'm not concerned about audio as long as it can send everthing out i.Link.

Rick,
It's easy to tell if it's some sort of calibration issue. Just decrease contrast a click at a time and see if things are better or worse. Then do the same for brightness. I can make my black bars look "greenish" by turning up brightness. The black bars are generated by the DVD player. Strange.

larry

[DynamiteD]

It will send everything out iLink, just make sure Digital Out 1 is on as it is the set-up for iLink as well as the 1st digital out. I've had no problems yet playing several SACD's and DVD-Audio Discs.

[Franchot]

Larry,

Thanks for your first impressions of the 10.5. Hope you'll post a follow-up tomorrow about your second testing.

If you get a chance, check and see if the BNC/component connection does, indeed, upconvert. In one of the threads on this board it was stated that a dealer said the player can upconvert thru component...but maybe he was just blowing smoke.

[PooperScooper]

Franchot,
I probably won't get a chance to try the BNC output. :( Integra doesn't supply a BNC->RCA cable and I doubt there's one available where I will be going. BNC is not very common in today's consumer electronics. One thing I just thought of wrt the "HD" label on the BNC output. Can non-HD capable TVs accept 480p? I don't remember. :) Also, "upconvert through component" could mean the composite and s-video inputs being "upconverted" to component output.

DynamiteD,
Thanks for the "green light" wrt i.Link.

Even if I get the 10.5 today, I won't be able to do much except 480i video and hi-rez audio "tests" until I get HDMI->DVI and BNC->RCA cables. If they have a HDMI->DVI cable, I'm sure it will be Monster or one similarily priced and I refuse to spend 3x for something for no reason. But if they have one, I will try to get them to throw it in with the deal.

larry

[DynamiteD]

I'm going to take my player into work so I can test out what this player can really do. I work at an audio video install company so there are good players to check this one against, Meridian G98/91, Arcam DV79, I even have a Denon 2200 at home to check against. I will find out about this player's upconversion too. Audio as well will be thrown against the Arcam unit in a dedicated Arcam set-up and the Meridian unit in an analog Meridian set up. More details to come. For the record I don't due video calibrations, I troubleshoot systems and program remotes so the comparisons will be on similar equipment with just the source being changed, meaning the DVD/CD player.

[Franchot]

Originally posted by PooperScooper
Can non-HD capable TVs accept 480p? Also, "upconvert through component" could mean the composite and s-video inputs being "upconverted" to component output. larry

No. (In answer to your question.)

I have a feeling you're right about the component outputs...at least from reading the specifications/literature. It's just strange that one component output is for an interlaced signal while the other is for progressive. Seems like overkill to me.

But who really has a definitive answer yet? The Zenith 318 and LG snuck into the country without any legal ramifications in regard to upconverting over component. (That's changing now, supposedly.) Are the Integra/Onkyo manufactured in the same country as the Zenith/LG?

DynamiteD,

I'll be very interested to read your thoughts about the player. I see you live in Newport Beach (which is pretty close to me.) Where did you get your player? I'm having a heck of time finding someone who can order me one or even knows about it. Thanks.

[PooperScooper]

After reading the manual *at home* I am 99.99% sure the 10.5 does not upscale out the "HD component" (BNC) output. The manual defines "upconversion" as taking the composite or s-video inputs and "upconverting" the video to component and sending it out the BNC output. The charts and other text only show HD resolutions going out HDMI. No big surprise.

The 10.5 is now nestled in with my other gear. I spent about an hour or so today at the store comparing it with the 59avi into a 43" Pio plasma (via media box) and HDMI. I took my DVE disk and made sure brightness and contrast were set ok on both (good thing I did). Colors can always be tweaked and the Pio looked pretty good, maybe a tad warm for my tastes. I popped in Mars Attacks and verified that the 10.5 does not have the CUE bug (Beginning of Chap 12. Jack Nicholson's red cowboy hat shows the bug real well on my 47ai). I watched the DVE video samples on both players and it looked good on both. I was beginning to wonder if the 10.5 was worth 2x to me over the 59avi. It's tough go back and forth between players and remember how the other looked. But, then I popped in The Fifth Element superbit and started watching some scenes I know very well. The 10.5 seemed very "smooth" and provided a very solid image and I noticed less "noise", for lack of a better word. The scene where it stood out was when they were in the room with the stones at the end. The background walls are very "textured" with color. The 10.5 showed it very solid and definitive. The 59avi displayed it as slightly "noisy" is the best I can describe it. When you look hard, things just are more "stable". It's hard to describe. Same thing at home with my XP30, which is no slouch of a player. At home I'm using a Fujitsu P50 plasma and I'm using the 10.5 at 480i until I get my cable(s). I had a little scare with i.Link. My 49txi didn't "see" the 10.5 and vice versa. I finally went into the 49txi digital input setup and saw that the "DPS 10.5" was configured as "i.Link" and not as a "DVD/LD" player like the entry for my 47ai. Once I fixed the input setup, everything was ok.

I did take the top cover off the player and the only sizeable chip was something from Fujitsu. I didn't remove any boards. Duh. :) The case is bascially "full". You get 27lbs of electronics. :) One thing I noticed also is that you can turn off the video circuit if you are just using audio. There's even a button and indicator light on the front.

I'm happy. :) I need to go order some cables.

larry

[Expletive]

Pooper, thanks for the impressions. Is that one test enough to determine a player does not have the CUE? I heard through the grapevine that the player does in fact the CUE.

BTW, they do sell BNC to RCA converters. Might be a cheaper solution for you and its not likely youll ever need to use a BNC to RCA cable again. :)

John

[PooperScooper]

John,
There's a "common" CUE bug that is more or less nonexistent in today's new players. The 47ai definitely had this one and the 10.5 does not (at least using the test case that was so obvious on the 47ai). I just looked at the Secrets site and it's the Chroma 3-2 and 2-2 Film tests/bugs. There's two others that are not as common or easy to see in DVDs, IIRC, and it's the Chroma 3-2 Alt flags and 4:2:0 ICP "bugs". The Silicon Image chip has them and that's why the Denon 2200 and 2900 failed the tests. If the 10.5 has the same chip, then it will problaby fail also. No big deal to me. I rarely saw the "common" bug on the 47ai. And, I already ordered new BNC> RCA cables, they were only $50. The BNC->RCA adapters don't preserve the 75ohms of the cable you are attaching them to. They should be avoided.

larry

[Franchot]

Thanks, Larry, for posting your observations about the 10.5. Please continue to do so as the days go on, as I base most of my buying decisions on what people post on these boards (considerate people like yourself who have a lot of intelligent insight)...and I'm just about ready to upgrade again.

Right now I've got my choices narrowed down to two players:
the Denon 3910 or the Onkyo SP1000 (the poor man's Integra).

Glad you're enjoying your new player.

[Steve Goff]

Actually, it isn't the Silicon Image SIL504 that has such CUE problems, since that it a deinterlacing chip. Rather, these errors are produced by MPEG decoder chips.

[PooperScooper]

Steve,
Do you know which decoder the 10.5 uses?

larry

[Q of BanditZ]

I hate to even mention this, since it's mostly speculation, but looking at the price and just how amazingly stacked this unit is...do you all think the Denon 5910 is going to, more or less, be the equivalent of this?

(In other words, is there any real point waiting for the 5910 in lieu of this monster?)

Just curious...

[Steve Goff]

Sorry, I don't know what decoder is used by the 10.5.

[PooperScooper]

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
I hate to even mention this, since it's mostly speculation, but looking at the price and just how amazingly stacked this unit is...do you all think the Denon 5910 is going to, more or less, be the equivalent of this?

(In other words, is there any real point waiting for the 5910 in lieu of this monster?)

Just curious...
Hard to say, Q. The 5910 will be 6 months or so newer, not sure how much when you consider when they were both "designed" and knowing which parts, software, and features would be available to use. I'm sure the 5910 will be a nice unit.

larry

[PooperScooper]

Originally posted by Steve Goff
Sorry, I don't know what decoder is used by the 10.5.
Maybe one of the other owners will be braver than me and "dig deeper" in the chassis instead of just taking off the top like I did. :)

larry

[Rob Kramer]

Not sure about the decoder, but the scaler is the Rembrandt.

http://www.oplus.com/rembrandt1.html

[Q of BanditZ]

I see now why $1850 is a good deal. Sure enough, that same one dealer that I have (who's also the only one that sells the 3910)...sitting right on MSRP of $2499. It's incredible. Yeah, bud, I'm really gonna pay MSRP plus 7 percent sales tax! (But...this still is beyond my budget regardless, but I felt the need to rant.) ;)

[Earz]

As an early adopter of the 5900,which in my case had macro blocking and occasional grinding of the transport on the first, and less severe macro blocking on the second unit, I am very interested to hear as much as possible on the Integra...or even the Onkyo version of this player.

I will never be any companys guinea again and like what I am hearing here about the QC of Onkyo/Integra.

Are these made in Japan?

[PooperScooper]

The 10.5 is made in Japan. 3 year parts and labor warranty.

larry

[anthonymoody]

Sorry for being late to this party. Does this player upconvert to custom resolutions? Specifically I'm looking for 1400x788.

Thanks!
TM

[Kevin C Brown]

I wonder if the Onkyo is made in Japan too. (I would imagine so, but...) That would be a plus in my book.

[PooperScooper]

TM,
No. What is 1400x788? Sony LCD RPTV?

And the manual make no mention of outputting 480i over HDMI. I only have DVI input on my P50 so it's not a big deal to me, but some folks may care.
It does output 640x480 over HDMI. :)

Kevin,
Integra is part of Onkyo. I'd be surprised too if the Onkyo players weren't made in Japan. Oh, and I haven't watched a disc all the way through yet to see how seamless the layer change is on the 10.5. :)

larry

[mattepntr]

About custom resolutions, the answer is no.

The DPS 10.5 supports these resolutions through it's HDMI out...

640x 480- 60hz
720x 480p- 60hz
720x 576p- 50hz
1280x 720p- 50/ 60hz
1920x 1080i- 50/ 60hz

I've ordered a BNC component video cable. It should be here in a couple
days. I'm interested in seeing what the HD Component OUT looks like, PQ
wise.

[Phasor]

I am also waiting for some BNC cables to compare to the HDMI. I am quite happy with the picture that this unit displays over HDMI to my projector. The player is still breaking in but I am pleased with the audio. It is quite easy to listen to. I can listen for a couple of hours with no listening fatigue. I was set on getting one of the Denon's until my dealer said to take this one home to try....

Phasor

[Franchot]

Originally posted by Kevin C Brown
I wonder if the Onkyo is made in Japan too. (I would imagine so, but...) That would be a plus in my book.

Just picked up the Onkyo SP-1000 tonight. It is, indeed, made it Japan. I'll see what this player can do compared to my Panasonic RP-82 and Zenith 318 (and some other players I have laying around.)

It does not have the BNC connectors. Instead, two sets of component connectors with one labeled "HD." The mystery will finally be solved (for me) to see if this player does, somehow, upconvert over the component connections. (I'm hoping for a better Zenith 318 in this respect.)

[mattepntr]

My dealer did the same thing. I went in looking to go home
with a Denon 5900. He told me about the Integra and convinced
me to give it a shot. I haven't been disappointed yet.

[Kevin C Brown]

Pooperscooper (do you have a cat or dog? :) ) and Franchot (and others), let me know what you think of the layer change delay. Either of you ever have a Pioneer or Denon before for comparison?

[Expletive]

Originally posted by mattepntr
About custom resolutions, the answer is no.

The DPS 10.5 supports these resolutions through it's HDMI out...

640x 480- 60hz
720x 480p- 60hz
720x 576p- 50hz
1280x 720p- 50/ 60hz
1920x 1080i- 50/ 60hz

I've ordered a BNC component video cable. It should be here in a couple
days. I'm interested in seeing what the HD Component OUT looks like, PQ
wise.

So it supports 480i but only at 4:3 aspect via HDMI? 480i out of the HDMI would bea big win for those planning on using an external scaler imo...

What is supported via component?

John

[mattepntr]

There are 2 sets of component jacks, one RCA and one BNC.
I believe the RCA jacks output 480i and the BNC outputs 480p
(and maybe higher. There is a swirl of buzz about this right now.)
The HDMI jack communicates with whatever it's hooked up to
and sends resolutions based on what is supported by the device.
It'd be interesting to see if an external scaler could tell the Integra
to give it a 480i signal. I wish I could override this communication
and choose which resolution I want sent to my EDTV. I'm curious
to see if 1080i has a better PQ (many report this with their EDTV's).
When I'm hooked up to my plasma, the only resolutions available
are 640x 480 and "Through Source", which is 480p.

[anthonymoody]

Thanks for the answer re custom rez guys. Too bad. BTW larry 1400x788 is the resolution of JVC's HX1U and HX2U projectors...

Thanks,
TM

[Earz]

Originally posted by Franchot
Just picked up the Onkyo SP-1000 tonight. It is, indeed, made it Japan. I'll see what this player can do compared to my Panasonic RP-82 and Zenith 318 (and some other players I have laying around.)

It does not have the BNC connectors. Instead, two sets of component connectors with one labeled "HD." The mystery will finally be solved (for me) to see if this player does, somehow, upconvert over the component connections. (I'm hoping for a better Zenith 318 in this respect.)

Made in Japan....is a big plus over China imo, and the pics I have seen of the interior of the 1000, show a very stout looking build quality.

I use a 318 for non region 1 dvd's and the 1000 had better slay the upconverted output of the 318 , or at least be a significant upgrade in picture quality :)

[PooperScooper]

Kevin,
I have 2 cats, Betty and Wilma. :)

mattepntr,
The "HDMI supplement" (single piece of paper in box) explains how to force a resolution out HDMI for DVI devices on the other end. Maybe it will work for HDMI->HDMI also.

And, like I said before, I *really* doubt that the 10.5 will upscale out the "HD component" output. If so, it's an "undocumented" feature. :)

larry

[mattepntr]

Thanks Larry!
I went back to that sheet and got the info to force resolutions
through HDMI. (Why isn't that info in the manual itself?) Anyway,
I set the Integra to output 1080i to my EDTV, and IT DOES LOOK BETTER.
I went back and forth several times with several DVD's and there's no
question, the image is clearer. The only thing I can think to explain it
is the "black spot" around individual screen pixels is reduced when you
do this. The screen door effect was much less noticeable when sitting
at the same distance from the screen.

I just love this unit more and more.

[Franchot]

Originally posted by Earz
Made in Japan....is a big plus over China imo, and the pics I have seen of the interior of the 1000, show a very stout looking build quality.

I use a 318 for non region 1 dvd's and the 1000 had better slay the upconverted output of the 318 , or at least be a significant upgrade in picture quality :)

Yes, the Onkyo is VERY nicely made. A solid piece of equipment with a very nice back-lit learning remote. I'd have to see the Integra model to see where they made improvements, but as it stands, this is a very capable machine.

Initial impressions from the few short time I played around with it last night:

The loader is smooth, quiet, and well-built. The disc needs to sit in its cradle correctly or you'll get a "No Disc" message. (Don't ask me how I found this out! At least, the disc wasn't damaged.)

I took my Panasonic RP-82 out of my system and just connected the Onkyo in it's place. After starting up the machine, I was greeted by an classy splash screen and then a short set-up screen. I'm connecting this player to a RPTV through component connections. (My RPTV was professionaly calibrated last year.)

Lots of options and things that can be tweaked as I went through the different menus available. (I didn't even bother to open the manual. I usually like to figure things out for myself before delving into the printed literature, and this player was super-easy to configure without using the manual.)

I didn't bother recalibrating the set from my Panasonic settings, just went with what I had for the moment. Threw in "The Hulk" dvd to look for the macroblocking problem in Scene 23 (I believe it is.)

Even without a recalibration the Onkyo's colors seemed more vibrant and alive than the Panasonic's. The picture was very crisp and the blacks were nice and inky. As far as the macroblocking goes...well, it was there to a degree in this scene. Not as bad as the Pansonic and not nearly as bad as the Zenith's 318 "pinkish" blocks. I still think that this disc is poorly mastered which is the major problem with this particular instance of macroblocking. Overall, a very impressive picture. The sound of the movie was also very detailed and full. (I've got an Onkyo receiver, for the record.) (It seemed much better than the Panasonic's, but maybe this was just my overenthusiasm for my new player.)

Upconverting through component? Doesn't seem to work. Or should I say, seems to be disabled? When I pressed the resolution button on the remote, I would get the message "Player/Through Source"? (Don't have the correct wording because I'm at work right now), BUT pushing the button again, brings up the message "Changing", but then nothing changes. Maybe the change is too subtle to see, but I kind of doubt that.

Next, I tried out a SACD of Snow Patrol's "Final Straw." No problems. Sounded fine. (At this point I couldn't say it sounded noticeably better than when I played it through my Philips 5-disc SACD player.)

Then, I tried out the DVD-Audio disc of Todd Rundgren's "Liars." It sounded considerably better than my Panasonic RP-82 for DVD-Audio-- fuller sound with a good kick in the bass.

Lots of information on-screen information can be displayed when pressing the "Display" button: elapsed time, remaining time, total time of disc, selected soundtrack, bit rate, remaining chapter time, elapsed chapter time, etc. (Seems to be no shortage of information available.)

So...

With just this short little go-round with this player, I'm very positive about this machine.

I have a plasma TV, so I'm going to test it out using the HDMI connection later this week. (Once I get a DVI-HDMI connector.) (By the way, the player comes with every cable you're likely to need.)

[Franchot]

Originally posted by Kevin C Brown
Pooperscooper (do you have a cat or dog? :) ) and Franchot (and others), let me know what you think of the layer change delay. Either of you ever have a Pioneer or Denon before for comparison?

Have a portable Pioneer which I bought a good four-five years ago. Works great and is still going strong. Never really hooked it up and used it with a regular TV set. Had a Denon DVD player (their first progressive player) and quickly returned it because it was buggy and cumbersome and...

I was almost going to go for the Denon 3910 intead of the Onkyo, but...well, that past experience with the Denon left me wary of trying them again. Maybe I will pick up a Denon 3910 and see how it compares to the Onkyo SP-1000. (But one will have to go back.)

I'll try out some layer changes tonight.

[PooperScooper]

mattepntr,
What you say about 1080i into the ED Panny is what others have said. It seems the scaler in the display "likes" the higher detail to scale down, than a 480P signal and then scale up. Or the scaler in the player does a better job at scaling up (quite possible) and scaling down by the player doesn't detract from image sent by the player. Either way, it's the end result that counts. I'm sure the single sheet of paper was necessary because the manuals were already printed when they encountered the DVI "quirks" with some devices.

larry

[Phasor]

As my 10.5 breaks in...I play it everyday...it sounds better everyday...I listened to DVDA and SACD today and it is very involving...time stops and I just get into the music...the video seems to improve as it breaks in...colors more vibrant...or maybe it's me watching more and more...

I definitely have no regrets about getting this player...

Phasor:D

[Earz]

Originally posted by Phasor
As my 10.5 breaks in...I play it everyday...it sounds better everyday...I listened to DVDA and SACD today and it is very involving...time stops and I just get into the music...the video seems to improve as it breaks in...colors more vibrant...or maybe it's me watching more and more...

I definitely have no regrets about getting this player...

Phasor:D

At the price you paid, I would already have a 10.5 :D

Please check your pm's.

[Q of BanditZ]

Is Phasor the one who got it at $1850 instead of the MSRP of $2499 like my dealer quoted me? Heh, maybe someone needs to PM me... :D

[mattepntr]

I bought the Integra together with an Anthem AVM30, and
my dealer gave me a nice break on the combo:)

[Phasor]

I have also spent around $11,000 dollars with this dealer this year on my home theater...so it just wasn't an idle offer...I do support them and they take care of me in turn...I guess that is how it is supposed to be in a good business relationship...

Phasor

[mattepntr]

It's true. I think if you're buying gear at this price point and your dealer
holds firm at MSRP, find another dealer.

[DynamiteD]

I took my Integra into work today to compare it with other players. I got to hook it up to the Loewe Articos 55" DLP. I've got to say the picture via HDMI to DVI is stunning. My boss, the owner of the store watched it for a few minutes and then declared that he'll have to get one for the showroom. I'll have more tomorrow when I have more time to compare it, but this is an outstanding player.

[Expletive]

anyone happen to have a soft copy of the manual for this player? Its not on their website yet so i just figured i would give it a try here in case someone got it via an email or something...

John

[PooperScooper]

I can't tell you how bummed I am to have to say this.... From what I can determine, the 10.5 has the "HDMI->DVI not passing blacker-than-black bug". :( :( My HDMI->DVI cable came today and I connected my Fujitsu P50 plasma. No matter what I do, I can't see the "outside" blacker-than-black bars on the DVE test pattern(s). I also have the 480i component connected and when I switch over, there they are. My P50 has 2 DVI input color range settings - PC and Video. I tried them both twice. I had to force the DVI output resolution to try something else besides 480p. I tried all three resolutions and no difference. Only two black bars show up and I have to crank my brightness up into the 20's to start to see the 2 "low black" bars. Normally I use brightness of 11. I told my salesman that the only reason I would bring it back is if i.link didn't work or HDMI->DVI had the blacker-than-black bug. I'm going to call him tomorrow and see if he can contact Onkyo/Integra to see if anything can be done. If not, I'll be returning this player. I will be interested to see how others with HDMI>DVI fare. This sucks. I really liked this player so far.

larry

[dave7]

I remember this issue with the 59 AVi, but I thought it was all sorted out as a mis-understanding. Do all HDMI players have this issue?

Larry - your handle is too cliche for this sort of post. Damn...I hope you're wrong!

[aBlueSky]

Does this only happen when you go from HDMI to DVI?

[Franchot]

Originally posted by PooperScooper
I can't tell you how bummed I am to have to say this.... From what I can determine, the 10.5 has the "HDMI->DVI not passing blacker-than-black bug". :( :( larry

On my second day of the owning the Onkyo SP-1000 (the Integra's "poor" sibling), I was looking for the black and blacker than black setting so I could set up my player properly through the progressive component connections. According to the manual, it's only selectable through the interlaced component connection. (Is this what you're talking about? Sounds like you already figured this out :( )

I haven't delved too deep into the using my calibration disc with the player, but, for what it's worth, the blacks look nice to the naked eye. (Of course, that really isn't much of a consolation.)

I'm still enjoying the player for the great sound (and vibrant picture) it outputs, and have been toying with the idea of trying out a Denon 3910 for comparison. Now I'm reading about these greenish blacks on the Denon. (Along with the macroblocking which has plagued some users.) It appears the perfect universal player still isn't here yet.

I picked up a HDMI>DVI cable last night, but haven't tried it out yet. (I've got a plasma set I'm going to connect the Onkyo to and see what it looks like.)

Keep us posted on your findings (both good and bad) about the Integra.

[PooperScooper]

Dave7,
The 59avi does not have the problem. One person reported it with one of the "preset" settings, but I don't believe it was confirmed. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so at this point. There are no settings that I can find that affect HDMI output besides resolution. HDMI->HDMI worked fine at my dealer - I took DVE with me. I couldn't try HDMI->DVI because they didn't have a HDMI->DVI cable.

aBlueSky,
Yes, it only happens with HDMI->DVI. My 480i connection works fine and today my BNC cable comes and I bet 480p component will work fine also.

larry

[aBlueSky]

So HDMI to HDMI shouldn't be an issue?

I am currently debating between the Onkyo and the Denon 2910...

Thank you for the info!

[Q of BanditZ]

I've been kind of keeping up with this thread. I notice that Integra and Onkyo keep getting mentioned in the same breath, almost as if they were the same company.

I have been told that the DV-SP1000 from Onkyo is essentially the same unit as this Integra 10.5. What are the differences? And why this seeming...duplication, for a lack of a better term?

[dave7]

Q-

The Onkyo will not input any video (the Integra will upscale and output to the DVI from one s-video and one composite input on the rear...not an important feature for most). Also, the d-mix (down-mixed) audio outputs are treated differently on the Onkyo and are more flexible on the Integra.

There could very easily be more differences that might never get mentioned - like different clocks, op-amps, and othe internal stuff.

Nevertheless - it appears the Onkyo ($2K), the Integra ($2.5K), and the Integra Research ($4.5K) are all based on the same platform.

I really hope Larry is wrong in his blacker-than-black observation. As I said earlier, I thought the image was superior to the 3910...including the dark/black scenes. So I am now wondering what blacker-than-black means in layman's terms.

[Expletive]

Originally posted by dave7
Q-

The Onkyo will not input any video (the Integra will upscale and output to the DVI from one s-video and one composite input on the rear...not an important feature for most). Also, the d-mix (down-mixed) audio outputs are treated differently on the Onkyo and are more flexible on the Integra.

There could very easily be more differences that might never get mentioned - like different clocks, op-amps, and othe internal stuff.

Nevertheless - it appears the Onkyo ($2K), the Integra ($2.5K), and the Integra Research ($4.5K) are all based on the same platform.

I really hope Larry is wrong in his blacker-than-black observation. As I said earlier, I thought the image was superior to the 3910...including the dark/black scenes. So I am now wondering what blacker-than-black means in layman's terms.

To add on here, they are all the same company.

John

[Q of BanditZ]

^^ They ARE the same company? Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks very much, that clears that mystery up. :)

[mattepntr]

As far as the blacker-than-black problem, I work in motion picture
visual effects. I've been testing my PQ using movies I've worked on,
looking for missing information in the darks (information I know should
be there because I PUT it there) and I can't see the problem. The PQ
I'm getting with this player (running HDMI>DVI to a Panny EDTV) is
terrific. Is this because of the higher-than-most contrast ratio of this
display? Maybe. Perhaps the below-black "bug" is more of an issue if
you have a display that is more sensitive to contrast issues, and needs
all the dark information you can give it to display a pleasing picture. I
don't know.
I'm certainly not criticizing anyones findings of the PQ of this unit. But
as far as everday viewing of program material (versus calibration DVD's),
I can't see a problem large enough to make me want to "trade up".

Just my $0.02

[PooperScooper]

Here's a pointer to the thread the discusses the problem I am seeing. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3599141#post3599141 It twists and turns but in a nutshell: Each RGB 4:4:4 component has 8 bits, values 0-255. For DVI there are 2 RGB "standards" used. "PC" and "Video". In PC RGB "black" is 0 white is 255 In Video RGB, "black" is 16 and white is 235. During DVD (or other) processing values below 16 and above 235 can be generated. DVDs are encoded in YCbCr 4:2:0, a different format than RGB. The problem seems to be that the HDMI chip is converting some form of YCbCr to RGB to send out DVI (DVI only supports RGB, HDMI supports RGB, YCbCr 4:2:2 and 4:4:4). When the conversion happens, it is converted to PC RGB, not Video RGB. So "video black" is mapped to 0. And any "blacker than black" values are mapped to 0 also - or "clipped". So, now you use lose low level black detail. Stacey Spears and his co-worker (Don?) found that more DVDs than not contain blacker than black video information.

So here's an update: I called Integra product support and I am most impressed. I got a real person who understood the problem as I described it and then went off and reproduced the problem in their "lab". She even said she had half the office there to see the problem. They did not know about this problem. So, I gave her all the info I could on the problem, and told her about AVS and the thread I linked above. It will be interesting to see what "home office engineering" has to say. :)

As far as clipping head and toe room, as it is called, there are a few other DVI players that already do this and people use them and are happy. Samsung 931 and 841 come to mind. All plasmas have a hard time with black level detail compared to CRT (the benchmark) and "smearing" various levels of black (0-16) to one value (0) in each or any RGB component is not going to help matters on any display. I'm ignoring "above white" clipping here too. The excellent scaler and other electronics in my Fujitsu plasma make good component 480i/p input almost indistinguishable from DVI input at any resolution. Even though I may still basically get the same PQ over component, I can't justify the cost of this player with an "unusable" (for me) HDMI output. Maybe for 1/2 price. :)

I'll keep you all posted.

larry

[dave7]

Thanks for the info.

For the price this player is going for, and considering the other players it is competing against, I would hope that this issue can be resolved. Especially given Integra's little known, but flawless reputation.

[mattepntr]

Thanks, Larry, for the info and for alerting Integra customer support to
the issue! It would be nice to know if Integra offers software updates for
it's machines (especially at this price point). If this HDMI issue is the only
"problem" with this player, I'll be a happy customer!

[aBlueSky]

I have one more question with regard to how the Onkyo / Integra players handle 4:3 material at 720P; do these players do the pillar box thing correctly?

Thank you for the info.

[Kris Deering]

It's funny, I just thought of something. Have you ever noticed that CGI blacks never really blend in perfectly with video blacks? I see this all the time, they look like a dark gray. A great example of this is the burly brawl in Matrix Reloaded. Whenever they use CG for Neo's character, it looks like an off black compared to the real actor's outfit.

I wonder if the black levels used for the CG were actually PC levels and not video black and one of the reasons that you couldn't achieve the same black levels.

Whether or not you see an issue in your player or not doesn't mean it is not there. As a hardware reviewer it is my JOB to report these issues and try and get the companies to resolve them. As a consumer it is your job to figure out if these issues are something that will bother you or keep you from spending your hard earned money. No one said that you can't enjoy a player that uses PC RGB levels, but since the reference used for film mastering is a Sony CRT monitor that will display levels above and below PC RGB levels, the device is clipping information that is in fact there. Granted a plasma will not render information below the black level set in the monitor, but it will show information that is above white. But there are other monitors that use HDMI that will render below black and now you are hindering their potential, whether YOU notice it or not.

[mattepntr]

About black levels in CGI effects, it depends on what company you're talking about.
If one element (CG) doesn't match the other things in the shot (real live action) it's
not a technical issue, it's an artistic one. i.e. BAD COMPOSITING.
This can be exacerbated by higher light levels being pushed through in the mastering
process. (The inconsistent black levels in space shots on the old "Star Wars" trilogy LD's,
for instance.

[mattepntr]

I worked on matte paintings for "Day After Tomorrow" and we executed
all our shots in 16 bit color (mapped to 10 bit logarithmic space i.e. Cineon
format), something not possible before using Photoshop. Blacks do indeed go
"below black", and above white as well. Pretty cool.

[Kris Deering]

Cool. I haven't seen that film yet but look forward to watching it on DVD.

[Franchot]

Thanks, Larry, for contacting Integra and getting an answer from them. I really like this player and want it to be a "keeper," but I also want an "as perfect" player as possible.

(Next time you speak with Integra, could you ask them in addition to patching the "below black" bug, if they could also release a patch that allows the player to upconvert over the component connection. ;) Sounds like you have a strong pull with this company--a live tech and half the office working on your problem! :cool: )

[mattepntr]

Hey Kris,
Have you received one of these players yet? When can we expect a review?

Rick

[Kris Deering]

Haven't got the Integra yet, I am hoping to real soon. I talked with them at CEDIA and they said they would send one out.

[PooperScooper]

Franchot, you crack me up. :) Sorry, but I'm going to use all my "pull" to get the btb bug fixed. :)

larry

[Expletive]

Originally posted by PooperScooper
Franchot, you crack me up. :) Sorry, but I'm going to use all my "pull" to get the btb bug fixed. :)

larry

Can you also verify the mpeg decoder/CUE error presence in the player? And the 4:3 pillarbox quesiton from earlier would be good too. Figured since you were cracking the whip over there at integra you may as well give them a whole list... :D

John

[Earz]

So far, it would seem the DPS-10.5 has a slight edge in picture quality over the 5900/3910,no excessive macro macro blocking, and an even bigger edge in cd playback to all of the flagship universals that it has been compared to except the DV-50.
Not to mention a stout looking Japanese build whith a 3 year warranty and a great track record for reliabilty.

Any more comparisons on the audio side of things like 2 channel sa-cd, or comparisons to redbook only players?

My dlp pj has no problem whith blacks,and I don't watch much 4.3 material so I am still leaning towards the Integra, or the Onkyo if it proves to have the same picture and sonics as the Integra.

If hd was not right around the corner, I would already have pulled the trigger on one of these units.

Any more comparisons would be highly appreciated.

Thanks, and have a great one
Greg

[PooperScooper]

I already reported on CUE (at least the chroma 3-2, 2-2 variant), nada. I doubt I'll be connecting DVI again, so I may not be able to test 4:3. Most likely I'll be returning the unit tomorrow. If the btb bug gets fixed, I'll most likely repurchase the player unless something else comes along which at this point only seems like the 5910 because I will not buy a new player without i.Link. I'm trying to combine my XP30/47ai combo into one unit. :)

larry

[Q of BanditZ]

I apologize if this has already been asked, or if the answer is this obvious, but since it's been established for me that Integra and Onkyo are essentially the same, is it fair to take anything said about this unit and apply it to the Onkyo DV-Sp1000?

In other words, are they basically the same unit with same pros and cons?

[PooperScooper]

My dlp pj has no problem whith blacks,and I don't watch much 4.3 material so I am still leaning towards the Integra, or the Onkyo if it proves to have the same picture and sonics as the Integra.

If you use HDMI or component you wont have the black-than-black "bug" problem. If you use DVI you will get *incorrect* - not what was on the DVD - video at times. DLP needs all the help it can get with blacks too (compared to CRT). This bug does not help, it hurts. It's your money, but buying $2k or $2.5K player that does this does not make sense to me, especially if you are using a player that passes btb now.

larry

[Franchot]

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
In other words, are they basically the same unit with same pros and cons?

Without actually having both players and testing them side by side...

I would "assume" so. Having looked at Intergra/Onkyo receivers in the past, the differences boil down to better components (parts) and sometimes richer features in the Integra line. (You know, like an Acura versus a Honda and a Lexus versus a Toyota--the same companies make the cars, but they put out a more "deluxe" model for people who want to spend more money.)

Anyway, I've been following the posts that the people have been making about the Integra and comparing them to my Onkyo and, so far, for all intent and purposes they're virtually the same player.

[PooperScooper]

One thing we know is that the 10.5 has BNC for 480p and SP has RCA. 10.5 will upconvert (the *true* meaning of "upconvert" :)) composite and s-video to component 480p. (somebody said HDMI output, but I forget what the manual said). SP does not have this. The 10.5 allows you turn off the video section when using audio. Does the SP do this? Without tearing out boards, it would be hard to tell about the internals.

larry

[Q of BanditZ]

So, since just about every other unit seems to have it, regardless of price range, have you all verified that this, too, also has macroblocking?

[PooperScooper]

The MB problems being discussed are Faroudja related. The 10.5 uses Silicon Image and Oplus chips (and unknown MPEG decoder).

larry

[Q of BanditZ]

Ok, good. Then I guess that thread about FLI vs. SIL...SIL has a nice lead doesn't it?

I think I am going to angle towards an SI chip player. Would someone mind either PMing me or listing here some of the better quality Silicon Image chip based players for me? Universal preferably.

I am going to assume the Pioneer 59avi, this, and the Onkyos are all probably SIL. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Franchot]

Originally posted by PooperScooper
One thing we know is that the 10.5 has BNC for 480p and SP has RCA. 10.5 will upconvert (the *true* meaning of "upconvert" :)) composite and s-video to component 480p. (somebody said HDMI output, but I forget what the manual said). SP does not have this. The 10.5 allows you turn off the video section when using audio. Does the SP do this? Without tearing out boards, it would be hard to tell about the internals.

larry

Larry is correct on the above. And the SP does have HDMI output. (I picked up an overpriced (that's an understatement) Monster HDMI>DVI cable so I could test out the connection to my DVI-only plasma.)

And, yes, you can turn off the video section when using audio.

Actually, I LIKE this player A LOT--the sound is fantastic and the picture quality is nearly as good. (I'm subtracting points because of the blacker than black bug on HDMI.) The player responds quickly to commands, is solidly built, has a very useable remote, and looks high end. If the bug is fixed, I'll REALLY like this player more, despite it's rather high price tag.

[Q of BanditZ]

Audio wise, on paper at least, this thing looks untouchable, like the King of the Mountain. I notice this thread has focused a lot on the video issues, but I'd really like to read some impressions from you all on what should be a heavenly audio experience. Thanks.

[PooperScooper]

To me, audio from the 10.5 sounds just like my 47ai. But, I use i.Link, so it better sound the same. :)

So, Franchot, I take it you've witnessed the btb bug too?

larry

[Expletive]

Originally posted by PooperScooper
To me, audio from the 10.5 sounds just like my 47ai. But, I use i.Link, so it better sound the same. :)

So, Franchot, I take it you've witnessed the btb bug too?

larry
Slightly off topic, would anyone know if the 3910 has the BTB bug as well? I know a few people are in both threads so i m just wondering...

John

[PooperScooper]

I doubt it does have the problem. There's been quite a few 3910 people "reporting in" and one would think somebody would have noticed the bug by now if it existed. I wish I could borrow a 3910 for a day. I'd like to compare it to the 10.5 (via component).

larry

[Expletive]

Originally posted by PooperScooper
I doubt it does have the problem. There's been quite a few 3910 people "reporting in" and one would think somebody would have noticed the bug by now if it existed. I wish I could borrow a 3910 for a day. I'd like to compare it to the 10.5 (via component).

larry

I've got one and the more i watch it, i feel like the image is better than the 5900 was (not counting how badly the 5900 displayed the macroblocking bug).

John

[dave7]

I did some back-to-back with the 10.5 and the 3910 at my home. I prefer the 10.5.

[Q of BanditZ]

Back to back movie watching, music, all of the above?... (Considering the price difference, it's nice to see that you see a difference...)

[PooperScooper]

I finally watched a DVD all the way through on the 10.5. I didn't notice any layer change. Where's Kevin?? :)

larry

[mattepntr]

Lemme guess........"Star Wars":-)

[dave7]

Q-

back-to-back video...as I mentioned a while ago.

I didn't have much time for audio even though it is equally important to me.

I will be returning my 3910 for a 10.5 as soon as I can get a 10.5. Supply seems short.

[Kevin C Brown]

P'Scoop- Cool. :D (I'm lurking.) Turns out one dealer I work with can get me either the Denon or Integra/Onkyo. Still haven't made up my mind yet. :)

Q- Pioneer doesn't use Silicon Image or Faroudja for deinerlacing. It uses some type of "proprietary" solution. See the write-up on Secrets. The deinterlacer that Pioneer uses is not as good as *either* SI or Faroudja...

Also, Integra is to Lexus as Onkyo is to Toyota, if that helps. ;) Same company builds them both. They are just targetting different customers is all with the two different brands. And, Integra Research which has a player coming is also built by Onkyo, but is in an even higher end market. (Linn Unidisk, that X player by Denon, the Meridian player, etc.)

[dave7]

FWIW - The way I understand it, the Integra Research RDV 1.1 (the step up from the Integra DPS 10.5) is a sort of collaboration with Apogee and BAT (Balanced Audio Technology). It will have a MSRP of $4K or maybe even $4.5K. Integra Research amps are built by BAT too, so it seems that this kind of "collaboration" is how they try to set the "Integra Research" brand apart from Integra, and Onkyo for that matter.

My feeling is that the Onkyo is the base player for the Integra and Integra Research players, and the latter two have various upgrades that may never show up in the specs. One example is how the extra set of audio outputs are handled differently between the Onkyo and the Integra.

The question for many here (not me since I like using the player's analogue audio outputs) is how the players differ if you use only digital outputs (iLink/HDMI). With an upgraded clock, I would guess that the IR player would sound better, even through iLink. Who knows about the Integra vs Onkyo though.

[Expletive]

Originally posted by dave7
FWIW - The way I understand it, the Integra Research RDV 1.1 (the step up from the Integra DPS 10.5) is a sort of collaboration with Apogee and BAT (Balanced Audio Technology). It will have a MSRP of $4K or maybe even $4.5K. Integra Research amps are built by BAT too, so it seems that this kind of "collaboration" is how they try to set the "Integra Research" brand apart from Integra, and Onkyo for that matter.

My feeling is that the Onkyo is the base player for the Integra and Integra Research players, and the latter two have various upgrades that may never show up in the specs. One example is how the extra set of audio outputs are handled differently between the Onkyo and the Integra.

The question for many here (not me since I like using the player's analogue audio outputs) is how the players differ if you use only digital outputs (iLink/HDMI). With an upgraded clock, I would guess that the IR player would sound better, even through iLink. Who knows about the Integra vs Onkyo though.

I remember reading that iLink is packet based and therefore a jitter-free connection. If thats the case, they i dont think an upgraded clock would effect it. For redbook, its likely you're using the analog outs anyway so an upgraded clock is out of the chain there as well? If you use iLink the only place i see an upgraded clock come into play is with DD/DTS sources. This is going by memory I could be remembering it all wrong.

John

[dave7]

You may be right with the iLink.

However, from what Dan Wright of Modwright told me (when I was talking to him about a modded Denon), a clock upgrade will help the whole machine, both analogue and coax digital out. Something with the way the player must do the internal processing before going analogue. I may have misunderstood him but I don't think so.

[Q of BanditZ]

Originally posted by Kevin C Brown
P'Scoop- Cool. :D (I'm lurking.) Turns out one dealer I work with can get me either the Denon or Integra/Onkyo. Still haven't made up my mind yet. :)

Tough choice. How much are you willing to spend?

[b]

Q- Pioneer doesn't use Silicon Image or Faroudja for deinerlacing. It uses some type of "proprietary" solution. See the write-up on Secrets. The deinterlacer that Pioneer uses is not as good as *either* SI or Faroudja...

Thanks.



Also, Integra is to Lexus as Onkyo is to Toyota, if that helps. ;) Same company builds them both.

I see virtually identical units seperated by a mere $500 on MSRPs. I can't believe the difference is signifigant. I'd be willing to bet in a blind test, you would hear and see virtually no difference whatsoever between the Onkyo and Integra units. I'd save a few hundred bucks + haggling and target for this Onkyo or the Denon 3910 myself. I think the Integra's a bit overpriced, imho. (Even more than the usual, which is: I think this whole market is woefully overpriced.)


They are just targetting different customers is all with the two different brands. And, Integra Research which has a player coming is also built by Onkyo, but is in an even higher end market. (Linn Unidisk, that X player by Denon, the Meridian player, etc.)

Right. That's something completely different altogether. ;)

[Kris Deering]

I just tested both the Onkyo and Integra Universal changers. Both are almost identical except for small variations in the frequency response and such. Exact same components in the video stage though.

The only differences other then the chassis I could find were the Integra's BNC component outputs and seperate DACs for each channel out on the Integra compared to the single multi-channel DAC for the Onkyo. There also appeared to be a bit more filtering on the analog audio section in the Integra.

As for the upcoming IR flagship player, a lot of the components will probably be the the same, but I would expect a different analog stage completely. I also heard that the IR unit will accept video sources IN to take advantage of its internal de-interlacing and scaling which is a pretty cool feature.

[kmmd]

Hi Dave,

Glad you spoke with Dan! He is fantastic, and he is very busy these days. ;) Will you be going that route?

I just wanted to post a little info about the clock. It is a very important part as ALL digital elements (processors, ADCs, DACs) in the player or receiver/pre-pro depend on it to "clock" the digital information. If you elect to use the processing and DACs in the player, then the clock in the player is very important. You will then have an analog signal after the D/A conversion in the player, and if using analog passthrough in your receiver/pre-pro, then the clock in the receiver/pre-pro has no effect on that analog signal. BTW FWIW, Gordon's/Alex's website has very good block diagrams of this for the player and receiver.

i.Link is very interesting as it takes the digital signal from your player and sends it through the single cable for processing and D/A conversion in your receiver/pre-pro. Therefore the clock, which inherently has jitter, in the receiver/pre-pro is very important. The clock in the receiver/pre-pro now becomes the master clock for this signal pathway. The digital information is sent from the player and stored in a buffer in the receiving component. The information is then clocked out from this buffer for processing, and DAC. Now comes the interesting part, and that is whether or not i.Link is implemented in such a way so that there is flow control between player and receiver/pre-pro to keep that buffer properly filled and not under or overfilled. This is the problem that manufacturers face in addition to making sure that both components "recognize" each other. Imagine clocking out an empty buffer or sending more digital info from the player to an already full buffer. What happens? Losses in information and drop outs in sound! :eek: This is what I suspect is happening for some who are connecting their Denon players to the Yamaha receivers. So in the end, yes, with i.Link there may be jitterless transmission (but then who would want to use a connection that increases jitter???), but there is still jitter due to the clock in the receiver/pre-pro.

[Expletive]

Originally posted by kmmd
Hi Dave,

Glad you spoke with Dan! He is fantastic, and he is very busy these days. ;) Will you be going that route?

I just wanted to post a little info about the clock. It is a very important part as ALL digital elements (processors, ADCs, DACs) in the player or receiver/pre-pro depend on it to "clock" the digital information. If you elect to use the processing and DACs in the player, then the clock in the player is very important. You will then have an analog signal after the D/A conversion in the player, and if using analog passthrough in your receiver/pre-pro, then the clock in the receiver/pre-pro has no effect on that analog signal. BTW FWIW, Gordon's/Alex's website has very good block diagrams of this for the player and receiver.

i.Link is very interesting as it takes the digital signal from your player and sends it through the single cable for processing and D/A conversion in your receiver/pre-pro. Therefore the clock, which inherently has jitter, in the receiver/pre-pro is very important. The clock in the receiver/pre-pro now becomes the master clock for this signal pathway. The digital information is sent from the player and stored in a buffer in the receiving component. The information is then clocked out from this buffer for processing, and DAC. Now comes the interesting part, and that is whether or not i.Link is implemented in such a way so that there is flow control between player and receiver/pre-pro to keep that buffer properly filled and not under or overfilled. This is the problem that manufacturers face in addition to making sure that both components "recognize" each other. Imagine clocking out an empty buffer or sending more digital info from the player to an already full buffer. What happens? Losses in information and drop outs in sound! :eek: This is what I suspect is happening for some who are connecting their Denon players to the Yamaha receivers. So in the end, yes, with i.Link there may be jitterless transmission (but then who would want to use a connection that increases jitter???), but there is still jitter due to the clock in the receiver/pre-pro.

Thanks for the detailed information. So if someone is using an iLink connection to get all digital audio from a player(DVDs, CDs, SACD, DVDA), an upgraded clock in the player itself won't really have an impact on sound quality. Is that correct? Granted you are now at the mercy of whatever digital circuitry is in the Pre/pro but in terms of the player i wanted to be sure where an upgraded clock comes into play. I have an Anthem D1 and plan on trying iLink when the D1 upgrade becomes available. Thanks again for the info.

John

[mattepntr]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
I also heard that the IR unit will accept video sources IN to take advantage of its internal de-interlacing and scaling which is a pretty cool feature.

Hey Kris,
Thanks for the info! Glad you finally received these units!
The 10.5 also brings in external video sources for de-interlacing
and scaling. I'm looking forward to running my LD's through it.

Rick

[Q of BanditZ]

Wow, bunch of fantastic info here. Thanks!

[kmmd]

Originally posted by Expletive:
So if someone is using an iLink connection to get all digital audio from a player(DVDs, CDs, SACD, DVDA), an upgraded clock in the player itself won't really have an impact on sound quality. Is that correct? Granted you are now at the mercy of whatever digital circuitry is in the Pre/pro but in terms of the player i wanted to be sure where an upgraded clock comes into play.
Hi John,

You're welcome for the info. To answer your question, yes you are correct that an upgraded clock in the player is of little benefit when using i.Link. What I believe ends up happening is that the digital info is sent asynchronously to fill the buffer in the pre-pro/receiver. Then the clock in the receiver/pre-pro clocks everything out of the buffer for processing and D/A conversion. Now the question becomes, what if we upgrade the clock in the receiver/pre-pro? Will this decrease overall jitter and thus improve sound quality?

As for i.Link, I agree that it is very convenient to use one cable, but all you are really doing is moving the digital signal to the receiver/pre-pro for processing and final D/A conversion. For some, this is a benefit as you use the processing power of the receiver/pre-pro for bass management and room correction, etc. Some will also benefit from better final DACs in the receiver/pre-pro when compared to those in the player.

But, what if the DACs are actually better in the player and that Bass Management is adequate in the player? Why is it that people state that the i.Link provides them with better overall sound quality? Perhaps there is more to the overall sound of a component than just the DACs themselves. Hmmm...

[Expletive]

Originally posted by kmmd
Hi John,

You're welcome for the info. To answer your question, yes you are correct that an upgraded clock in the player is of little benefit when using i.Link. What I believe ends up happening is that the digital info is sent asynchronously to fill the buffer in the pre-pro/receiver. Then the clock in the receiver/pre-pro clocks everything out of the buffer for processing and D/A conversion. Now the question becomes, what if we upgrade the clock in the receiver/pre-pro? Will this decrease overall jitter and thus improve sound quality?

As for i.Link, I agree that it is very convenient to use one cable, but all you are really doing is moving the digital signal to the receiver/pre-pro for processing and final D/A conversion. For some, this is a benefit as you use the processing power of the receiver/pre-pro for bass management and room correction, etc. Some will also benefit from better final DACs in the receiver/pre-pro when compared to those in the player.

But, what if the DACs are actually better in the player and that Bass Management is adequate in the player? Why is it that people state that the i.Link provides them with better overall sound quality? Perhaps there is more to the overall sound of a component than just the DACs themselves. Hmmm...

Agree 100%. I'll give it a try both ways when i get the iLink upgrade both ways. I think thats the only way you can really tell is to A/B the two methods in your specific configuration becuase the analog stage in your pre/pro is also a 'bottleneck' when you use DACS internal to the player. So it really becomes 2 different equations where one has the DACS/clock in the player and the analog stage in thepre/pro, and the other the DACS pre/pro and any inherent weakness with its clock/circuitry. Either route brings the pre/pro and its inherent strengths and weaknesses directly in play so for each combination you need to test both.

With the D1, it seems as if Anthem has really tried to make it a superior DAC by including the upsampling circuitry and top of the line AKMs. Based on features specs alone, my guess would be that the D1 should hold its own against any digital section in a player available. The integra research is a different beast altogether however since it will retail for $500 less than a D1. (It should be superior). That said youre attaching an almost $5k player to a pre/pro 's analog section that has an entire MSRP of $5k.

I could go on forever, but i gues my point is what kind of preamp processor would justify a $4500 DVD player.

John

[dave7]

Really good point John.

Is there a price ratio relationship between any components? Using a ratio, or percentage, relationship method, what processor would be appropriate for a Linn Unidisk 1.1?

OK - I am really taking it far from the 10.5...sorry.

BTW - has anyone been able to verify the below black issue?

[PooperScooper]

BTW - has anyone been able to verify the below black issue?

Integra did. I said that in post a few pages back. I had no doubt, but I've been around here long enough to refrain from speaking in absolutes. :)


Why is it that people state that the i.Link provides them with better overall sound quality?

Hmm. I've never seen anybody say that here at AVS. Very few people use i.Link. I don't have 6 spare cables laying around to compare. :) Actually I could try stereo, but I'm too lazy. If I was going to keep the Integra (or if I repurchase if/when the btb bug is fixed) I'd compare it vs i.Link on my 49Txi. The DACs in player vs DACs in pre/pro dilemma is the same as scalers in upscaling DVD players vs scalers in TV/displays. You don't know till you dry.

larry

[Q of BanditZ]

You don't know till you dry.
:p

[dave7]

Pooper - aka Larry - is Integra going to address the below black issue in any way?

[PooperScooper]

Originally posted by dave7
Pooper - aka Larry - is Integra going to address the below black issue in any way? I would hope so! :) I assume "engineering" is in Japan, but that is only becasue of the the parent company. So, it's going to take a few business days or more just to get some sort of "statement". The support person didn't say this, it's just my quess. My 10.5 is going back tomorrow. If I don't hear from them next week, I'll probably call and see what is what. If anybody else here is owns the 10.5 and wants to use DVI, please call 1-800-225-1946, talk to product support, and tell them you have the problem.

I did do some comparisons with 480p between the 10.5 and Panny XP30. The 10.5 delivers a more stable signal from looking at resolution test patterns - almost no ringing around small text - compared to the XP30 - with a fair amount of ringing - which isn't helped by crappy RCA component outs. However, on a blind A/B test, you'd be hard pressed to tell which player was playing. The 10.5 does produce a better picture, but you have to look hard. I'm still amazed at how good the $200 XP30 performs. Panny sure doesn't make them like that anymore. :)

larry

[aBlueSky]

OK, I will ask one more time...

Has anyone checked to see how this player handles 4:3 material at 720P? Does this unit allow you to squeeze the image, so that it isn't stretched?

Thank you!

[Earz]

Are these Wolfson dacs pcm only....no pure dsd signal whithout pcm conversion?

Just curious...





Greg

[kmmd]

I also agree with comparing the 5.1 analog connections versus i.Link to see which method sounds the best. Please remember that whether you do D/A conversion in the player or your receiver/pre-pro, that you will still go through an analog stage which consists of I/V conversion and post filtering. In receivers/pre-pros, you will also have analog components for volume control (attenuation), again after the DACs. A good example of what this analog stage consists of is on page 24 of the spec sheet for the AKM4395 (http://www.asahi-kasei.co.jp/akm/en/product/ak4395/ek4395.pdf). (Yes, I chose this as an example because the Anthem D1 uses these DACs.) As one can see, there are numerous op amps, resistors and capacitors, and this schematic is just for a single channel.

Originally posted by PooperScooper:
Hmm. I've never seen anybody say that here at AVS.
Here is a current thread over on the Audio forums: Analog 5.1 input vs. i.link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=450567). In addition, I'm positive that if you do a search of the audio forums for the Pioneer 49TXi/55TXi/59TXi receivers and 47ai and 59AVi players that you will find posts scatterred here and there comparing the two connection methods.

BTW, I apologize to all for going off-topic of the Integra player.

[mattepntr]

Originally posted by aBlueSky
OK, I will ask one more time...

Has anyone checked to see how this player handles 4:3 material at 720P? Does this unit allow you to squeeze the image, so that it isn't stretched?

Thank you!


I just checked this with a non-anamorphic DVD (Poseidon Adventure) and
the answer is YES, I could get the 10.5 to cycle through it's various aspect
ratio settings at 720p and display a pillarboxed image. I have a 16x9 television so
of course I have to change it's aspect ratio as well.

At 1080i, my display locks in FULL mode, so I can't say what the Integra's
potential is at that res.

[aBlueSky]

So with your TV set to standard 16:9 at 720P, the player will show a pillarboxed image? From reading your post it sounds like you may be using you TV to squeeze the source?

At 1080i the player will not pillarbox?

Thank you for your help!

[mattepntr]

The Integra has 3 aspect ratio settings-

Normal
Letterboxed
widescreen (for 16x9 sets)

At 720p, I set both the 10.5 and my display (an ED plasma)
to "normal", and I see a pillarboxed image.

At 1080i, my DISPLAY locks at "full", which is a horizontally
stretched format for anamorphic material. In this mode, I
can't tell what the Integra is doing because my display won't
show it to me. Perhaps someone with a true HD display can
answer that for you.

Hope that helps.

[aBlueSky]

Thank you!

[Steve Goff]

Originally posted by Earz
Are these Wolfson dacs pcm only....no pure dsd signal whithout pcm conversion?

Just curious...





Greg

The Wolfson DACs do both PCM and DSD natively. They are the 7819s, not listed on their website but the info is there if you look.

[Expletive]

Originally posted by Steve Goff
The Wolfson DACs do both PCM and DSD natively. They are the 7819s, not listed on their website but the info is there if you look.

Does this player do TA and BM in DSD or convert to PCM (mainly for BM) for those? (like the Denons)

John

[Expletive]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
I just tested both the Onkyo and Integra Universal changers. Both are almost identical except for small variations in the frequency response and such. Exact same components in the video stage though.

Just out of curiosity, which models were these? What deinterlacer and MPEG decoder did they use? Did they exhibit any iterations of the CUE?

Hopefully we can get a sneak preview here. :D

John

[Kris Deering]

They were the new Universal changers. They will be in the benchmark that should go live this week. It also includes the Arcam DV-27A, NeoNeu upscaling player, Denon 3910 and 1910, and the Yamaha S-1500.

[Expletive]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
They were the new Universal changers. They will be in the benchmark that should go live this week. It also includes the Arcam DV-27A, NeoNeu upscaling player, Denon 3910 and 1910, and the Yamaha S-1500.

Looking forward to it!

Do you know if these changers use the same deinterlacer and decoder as the 10.5/sp1000? Hopefully im not asking you to say too much...

John

[Kris Deering]

I know they are not using the same de-interlacer, but I don't know about the MPEG decoder. Unfortunately the MPEG decoders of the changers weren't accessable, so I don't know what they used. I do know that they used the MPEG decoders processing for their de-interlacing though and not a standalone solution.

[Steve Goff]

Originally posted by Expletive
Does this player do TA and BM in DSD or convert to PCM (mainly for BM) for those? (like the Denons)

John

From the manuals, they do bass managment in both DVD-A abd SACD natively, but have no speaker distance (time delay) controls for SACD. I don't think they will convert DSD to PCM.

[PooperScooper]

kmmd,
Sorry, I misunderstood you or vice versa. I meant that I have never seen any posts claiming i.Link is (always) better. i.e. not taking into consideration what is on either end. Sorta like claiming upscaling DVD players always look better.

larry

[adamsfbay]

Originally posted by Franchot
Thanks, Larry, for contacting Integra and getting an answer from them. I really like this player and want it to be a "keeper," but I also want an "as perfect" player as possible.

(Next time you speak with Integra, could you ask them in addition to patching the "below black" bug, if they could also release a patch that allows the player to upconvert over the component connection. ;) Sounds like you have a strong pull with this company--a live tech and half the office working on your problem! :cool: )

Just as an FYI - analog connections need to pass Macrovision ACP copy protection in order to be issued a DVD license. At this time, this ACP copy protection is not offered for 720P and 1080i, so these manufacturers cannot upsample the analog outputs to higher than NTSC/PAL EDTV.

-Adam

[adamsfbay]

Originally posted by Earz
So far, it would seem the DPS-10.5 has a slight edge in picture quality over the 5900/3910,no excessive macro macro blocking, and an even bigger edge in cd playback to all of the flagship universals that it has been compared to except the DV-50.
Not to mention a stout looking Japanese build whith a 3 year warranty and a great track record for reliabilty.

Any more comparisons on the audio side of things like 2 channel sa-cd, or comparisons to redbook only players?

My dlp pj has no problem whith blacks,and I don't watch much 4.3 material so I am still leaning towards the Integra, or the Onkyo if it proves to have the same picture and sonics as the Integra.

If hd was not right around the corner, I would already have pulled the trigger on one of these units.

Any more comparisons would be highly appreciated.

Thanks, and have a great one
Greg

Actually, I politely disagree. I had both the 10.5 and the 3910 in my home theater, both calibrated and using digital interface connections. The video quality of the 3910 was, in my opinion, slightly better (more filmlike, fewer artifacts, more accurate colors - all subtle, but discernable) than the 10.5. Sound was equivalent running digital to my Casablanca III for processing.

I'm returning the 10.5 and keeping the 3910. Build quality on the 10.5 is slighly nicer, but the 3910 to me looked better, and is available at less than 1/2 the price.

-Adam

[Kris Deering]

This is why it is always hard to say subjectively that one player is better then the other. Everyone sees things differently, and frankly with players like this you're splitting hairs anyways.

I am glad so many people are enjoying the new Integra though, I look forward to testing it out. The 3910 is a very stong offering though. I really like some of the new things Denon has done with it compared to the 5900, but I also still like some of the features of the 5900 a bit more. I hope some of the things Denon has done with the 3910 find their way to the 5910.

[PooperScooper]

Adam,
Thanks for the input. What kind of display are you using? My 10.5 goes back in about an hour because of the btb bug over DVI. I found a Denon dealer nearby that has a 7 day money back guarantee so I will probably audition the 3910. Too bad I won't have the 10.5 to compare it to. This same dealer carries Ayre, but I don't know if I'm up to that kind of $$$. :)

larry

[Earz]

Originally posted by adamsfbay
Actually, I politely disagree. I had both the 10.5 and the 3910 in my home theater, both calibrated and using digital interface connections. The video quality of the 3910 was, in my opinion, slightly better (more filmlike, fewer artifacts, more accurate colors - all subtle, but discernable) than the 10.5. Sound was equivalent running digital to my Casablanca III for processing.

I'm returning the 10.5 and keeping the 3910. Build quality on the 10.5 is slighly nicer, but the 3910 to me looked better, and is available at less than 1/2 the price.

-Adam

Sure...throw a wrench into my plans :)

Actually, I refer to the actual player dacs were others are saying the 10.5 is superior.

Anyway, I have owned two 5900's, the first had macro blocking and occasional transport problems, and the second had less severe macro blocking, but was still unacceptable.

I would like to go for the cheaper player also, but I plan on having the audio side modified, and don't have much faith in Denons Chinese build or QC track record as compared to the Onkyo/Integra track record.

It is easy to see by looking at pictures of the inside that the new Onkyo/Integra universals are far beefier than the 3910..... there is no arguing this, or the QC records of late.

As far as artifacts and picture quality, I guess I will now have to get one of each and compare for myself.

Thanks for your input
Greg

[dave7]

FWIW - My observation on video between the 3910 and the 10.5 are opposite from Adam. I am returning the 3910 in favor of the 10.5.

For audio, I too would only compare analogue out. I am also considering modding a 10.5 at some point to hopefully get it better sounding than my old Lexicon. I have even inquired with a few modders about this.

In build quality - to me there is more that a subtle advantage of the 10.5 over the 3910.

To each his own I guess.

[Expletive]

The fact that the 3910 is being compared to the 10.5 really says a lot about it. Not sure how this debate came about as the real Denon equivalent is the 5910 which is due out earl 2005. The 10.5 is 2x MSRP of 3910. As someone considering iLink its a tough call to spend so much more on slightly better video.

I know you usually have to consider the analog section as well but for iLink users can anyone who has compared the two say that the video is $1300 better?

I'm probably trying to talk myself out of the fact that this player would be an upgrade from the 3910 since i own a 3910... :)

John

[PooperScooper]

John,
I'm in the same boat as you, I use i.Link too. Have you noticed any problems using i.Link with the 3910? What pre/pro or receiver are you connecting? I'm a little apprehensive of the 3910 wrt the MB issues. Somebody reporting i.Link problems didn't help either. All I'm looking for is a player with exceptional video at 480p DVI and i.Link. Nothing more and nothing less. :) Actually, just the video part would be ok because I could keep my 47ai for audio like I'm doing now.

larry

[Expletive]

Originally posted by PooperScooper
John,
I'm in the same boat as you, I use i.Link too. Have you noticed any problems using i.Link with the 3910? What pre/pro or receiver are you connecting? I'm a little apprehensive of the 3910 wrt the MB issues. Somebody reporting i.Link problems didn't help either. All I'm looking for is a player with exceptional video at 480p DVI and i.Link. Nothing more and nothing less. :) Actually, just the video part would be ok because I could keep my 47ai for audio like I'm doing now.

larry
Since i have an anthem D1, i wont be able to test iLink until the upgrade early 2005. :(

I had a 5900 and the MB on the 3910 seems to be largely (if not completely) resolved imo. The minor anomalies i see now seem to be simply compression artifacts on the DVD itself, nothing i wasnt seeing from time to time on 'non-macrblocking enabled players' :)

I'd like to see the 3910 be able to output 480i via DVI/hdmi and have ilink work then it would be a no brainer imo, making it the ultimate 'digital transport'. That would give it infinite connection capabilities such as a scaler like the iscan HD, Ilink for all audio, etc.

You're planning on testing the 3910 right? Very interested on hearing your impressions.

John

[Franchot]

Originally posted by adamsfbay
Just as an FYI - analog connections need to pass Macrovision ACP copy protection in order to be issued a DVD license. At this time, this ACP copy protection is not offered for 720P and 1080i, so these manufacturers cannot upsample the analog outputs to higher than NTSC/PAL EDTV.

-Adam

Yeah, I know that. But it's common knowledge around here that the early run of the Zenith 318 can upconvert through the component connections. If it could "mistakenly" be done on the Zenith...well, so much for wishful thinking.

I had a local dealer who price-matched a low Internet dealer on the Denon 3910, so I took the bait. (Plus, I have thirty days to try it out and can return it without a restocking charge.)

I've been comparing the video of the Onkyo SP-1000 to the Denon and the Onkyo looks more film-like, HOWEVER, the Denon has so many picture controls, I'm pretty sure I could dial in the same result with some more tweaking. (I tried a variety of film-based DVDs, and I preferred the Onkyo. The picture on the Denon looked more processed to me. But I was only eyeballing the picture and messing around with the picture controls to get a satisfactory look. (More studied calibrations should yield a better result.) Macro-blocking was apparent on one DVD, but it wasn't too bad, and was further "tamed" playing around with the picture adjustments.

As far as video-based material, the Denon has three video modes which can be used to get a satisfactory picture with problem material. The Onkyo has no such switchable film/video mode, but looking at video material, the Onkyo did a pretty good job. I noticed minimal combing and stair-stepping on a couple of discs, but nothing too horrendous. (Just using the test DVDs, the picture problems appreared to be something I could live with.)

Build quality, the remote, and ease of use (and, in fact, splash screens and configuration screens), are all in Onkyo's favor. This is one, nicely thought-out player where everything is well integrated. (I barely had to refer to the manual because every adjustable mode is explained on-screen.)

The Denon, on the other hand, is more of a tinkerer's player with no flashy screens. (I had to read through the manual to figure out what many of adjustments can do. At times I felt like I was in the "secret" service menu of the player.) Still, the Denon has options aplenty. (Just wish they were easier to get to and better integrated.)

Trying out some SACDs/DVD-As, the Denon sounded brighter and harsher compared to the Onkyo. Listening more, perhaps I was mistaking this harshness for more details in the sound. The Onkyo sounded so fluid and smooth when I first tried it out. But switching back to the Denon and then back again to the Onkyo, the Onkyo sounded almost flat.

Playing CDs on both players yielded pretty much the same results. There was one problem I had on the Onkyo, however. I put in an old copy of Leonard Cohen's "New Skin For The Old Ceremony" and the player loudly rumbled as the disc spun up. (I thought I had wrongly put the disc in. Nope.) I retried the disc and same rumbling was emitted from the player. I tried to play the disc and it played, but the rumbling started again and was clearly audible as I listened to the disc. I tried the disc in the Denon and had no such problems. Now, this is an old disc purchased from a bargain bin, so that may have something to do with it. But I tried the disc on several occasions over the weekend and I always got that rumbling. (And I held the disc door with my hand trying to quiet the rumbling--no success.)

So...

For about a $1000 bucks I got the Denon. For about $1650 I got the Onkyo. I really like the Onkyo. (It's just a better built machine and easier to use (especially in a darkened room.)) But I feel the Denon can do more and can be more custom-configured to get the most out of the player (although it's a bit of a hassle to get it to do that "more stuff.") Guess, I'll wait until Kris posts his findings over at Secrets to make my final decision...if the Denon is vastly superior in the video department, I'll know which way to go. If they are both neck and neck, I'll stick with the Onkyo. (Actually, I "should" go for the cheaper Denon because next year I'll have to dole out more cash to upgrade (once again) to a HD-DVD player. (If that format ever takes off :rolleyes: )

(Thanks, Kris, for saying that you're going to post your findings this week (before my 30 day return window has expired :) .))

[PooperScooper]

You're planning on testing the 3910 right? Very interested on hearing your impressions.

Yes, but I'm assuming the Denon dealer near me has in in stock. I'll call this week.

Franchot,
What do you use, component, hdmi, or dvi? And to what display? One of the reference points I use from a DVD is on The Fifth Element (Superbit). In the scene where Gary Oldman is demo'ing the weapon and the scene near the end where they are using the stones, both rooms have highly "textured" (for lack of a better word) colored walls (the stone room, especially). These background can give some players problems. From what I saw, the 10.5 handled this better than a 59avi (HDMI) and my XP30 (480p component).

larry

[adamsfbay]

Originally posted by PooperScooper
Adam,
Thanks for the input. What kind of display are you using? My 10.5 goes back in about an hour because of the btb bug over DVI. I found a Denon dealer nearby that has a 7 day money back guarantee so I will probably audition the 3910. Too bad I won't have the 10.5 to compare it to. This same dealer carries Ayre, but I don't know if I'm up to that kind of $$$. :)

larry

I'm using it on a fixed-pixed digital display - the 55" Fujitsu Plasma, ISF calibrated.

I'm running the 3910 from DVI to a DVI boosting switcher (other component is HD TiVo from HDMI to DVI switcher), then a 10 meter fiber DVI cable to the plasma.

-Adam

[PooperScooper]

Cool, Adam, thanks. Was the ISF calibration done with the 3910?

larry

[aBlueSky]

Adamsfbay -

With regard to the 3910, did you notice any "green push" or "tint"? Sorry to go off topic, but I am currently trying to decide between the Onkyo DV-SP1000 and the Denon DVD-3910...

Cheers!

[adamsfbay]

Originally posted by PooperScooper
Cool, Adam, thanks. Was the ISF calibration done with the 3910?

larry

It was. The calibrator (here in the North Bay) was curious about the 10.5 vs. the 3910. We calibrated both (very similar actually) and qualitatively compared image quality and test-pattern results.

There was no hint of greenish tint to our eyes on either player. Both players were connecting using digital connections (DVI out on the 3910, HDMI via the 10.5) to my DVI switcher (which passes 1080p to a 1080p-capable fiber DVI cable).

Both players looked great on my benchmark for darkly lit film content - Gothika, pushing the limits of the plasma display (which, of course, still lacks the dark scene gradations of a well-calibrated front projector).

Both of us, on my fixed-pixel display, and through the digital outputs (with the 3910 set to 1080i which, incidentally, was best) gave the 3910 the slight edge.

I agree with others on this post that the 10.5 has a better build quality and feel, but I'd get an Ayre or a Linn if that were my core value :)

As for use, I only use my DVD players for video (and soundtrack audio through a pre-pro). I'm not an SACD or DVD-A fan because of paucity of content, and do all my CD listening on a 390s via its analog outputs.

I could hear no difference among soundtracks on my rig between the 10.5 and the 3910, but admitedly I paid less attention to this that to the video.

Hope that helps!

-Adam

[PooperScooper]

Excellent Adam, thanks. aBlueSky did a pretty good follow to my question - he saw it's hidden meaning. :)

larry

[aBlueSky]

Originally posted by PooperScooper
Excellent Adam, thanks. aBlueSky did a pretty good follow to my question - he saw it's hidden meaning. :)

larry

:D

[Kris Deering]

I am not testing the Onkyo SP1000, I haven't got one yet. I am testing their universal changer.

[Franchot]

Originally posted by PooperScooper
Yes, but I'm assuming the Denon dealer near me has in in stock. I'll call this week.

Franchot,
What do you use, component, hdmi, or dvi? And to what display? One of the reference points I use from a DVD is on The Fifth Element (Superbit). In the scene where Gary Oldman is demo'ing the weapon and the scene near the end where they are using the stones, both rooms have highly "textured" (for lack of a better word) colored walls (the stone room, especially). These background can give some players problems. From what I saw, the 10.5 handled this better than a 59avi (HDMI) and my XP30 (480p component).

larry

I based my findings on component connections to my Toshiba RPTV, although I also have a Panasonic HD plasma with DVI. The reason being, the RPTV was ISF calibrated last year while the plasma is not, and with an uncalibrated display I don't think I would get truly accurate results. (I played around in the service menu of the plasma to tweak it, but honestly I'm no ISF calibrator.) I did connect the players up to the plasma, but, as you know, the HDMI>DVI blacker than black bug is present on the Onkyo because the Panny only accepts DVI while the Onkyo only outputs HDMI. (Used a HDMI>DVI cable.) I did not notice any green push when using the Denon on either display. Both players looked about as good as I expected on my uncalibrated plasma which is to say, very good.

I have "The Fifth Element", but not the Superbit version. (As a matter of fact, I looked at the opening scenes on both players and they both looked rock solid.) I'll look for at that scene tonight on the Denon.

"Rush Hour" (scenes 7 & 8--the venetian blinds and the brick house) used to cause problems for the deinterlacers on some players in the past, but both were solid on the Denon and the Onkyo.

DVDs I tested with: "Rush Hour, Hulk, Fifth Element, Springsteen Live In NYC, North By Northwest, The Last Picture Show, The Maltese Falcon, Dark City, The Phantom Menace, The Big Lebowski."

SACDs and DVD-As tested: Peter Gabriel's "UP," Beach Boys "Pet Sounds," Todd Rundgren's "Liars," Bob Dylan's "Planet Waves, Blonde On Blonde," Neil Young's "On The Beach," Mike Oldfield's "Tubular Bells," Roxy Music's "Avalon," Billy Joel's "The Stranger," The Animal's "Retrospective," The Searchers' "The Collection," The Kinks' "Muswell Hillbillies."

[kmmd]

Originally posted by PooperScooper:
kmmd,
Sorry, I misunderstood you or vice versa. I meant that I have never seen any posts claiming i.Link is (always) better. i.e. not taking into consideration what is on either end. Sorta like claiming upscaling DVD players always look better.

larry
Larry,

No need to apologize as we are all here to learn and to share with each other. :) After re-reading my post, I can see how it can be misconstrued. I should've worded it as, "...SOME people state..." I also wanted to point out that there is so much more to the overall sound of a component than just the DACs. Every time I see someone post that the DAC in A is better than B, I just think... :rolleyes: This is only a valid comparison when everything surrounding the DAC is the same between the two being compared, and that the ONLY difference is the DAC.

[Q of BanditZ]

Originally posted by Kris Deering
I am not testing the Onkyo SP1000, I haven't got one yet. I am testing their universal changer.

The 802?

[Earz]

Originally posted by kmmd
Larry,

No need to apologize as we are all here to learn and to share with each other. :) After re-reading my post, I can see how it can be misconstrued. I should've worded it as, "...SOME people state..." I also wanted to point out that there is so much more to the overall sound of a component than just the DACs. Every time I see someone post that the DAC in A is better than B, I just think... :rolleyes: This is only a valid comparison when everything surrounding the DAC is the same between the two being compared, and that the ONLY difference is the DAC.

When people refer to the dacs comparison, they are reffering to the analog outs, as compared to the digital outs, which is no comparison at all.

Most around here understand this...I would hope :)

Whenever you see a comparison through a digital connection, you should be rolling your eyes :D

[dave7]

There is more to analog outs than just the DACs.

[Kris Deering]

Whenever you see a comparison through a digital connection, you should be rolling your eyes

Not neccesarily because the clock still come into play, so you can hear a difference. I noticed this with the Arcam, Krell and Denon 5900.