"Wireless Dolby Headphones now available in US"

[DaveFi]

Didn't know where to put this, but it looks interesting.

I was searching for some wireless "surround" headphones but none of the ones available at retail in the US supported "Dolby Headphone" (which seemed kind of dumb, considering that's what it's for).

So in my search I came upon this PR:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/press/release/detail/0,,2076_4313_43667814,00.html

Audiocubes already seems to cary the import version of the Pioneer SE-DIR800C for $385.
http://www.audiocubes.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_62&products_id=589&osCsid=f5010ea294d518640cefe0355ad06287

Does anyone have any experience with wireless "surround" headphones? The older Pioneer SE-DIR1000C have received excellent reviews. I am tempted to purchase the import 800C.

[Roger Dressler]

The 800c is cuter, but I do not find the sound of the headphones to my taste. They are more midrangy than the 1000's. I have yet to do some serious listening to the new Philips units introduced at CES. You can see a picture of it at http://www.dolby.com/Consumer/PersonalSurround/Products/

[DaveFi]

The dynamic range of the 800's phones are a bit less, 12-22,000 as opposed to the 1000's 10-24,000, but they're almost half the weight. Also, it appears the 800's encoder/transmitter is much improved over the 1000's. People are saying it handles LFE much better.
http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55892

I've been waiting a few years since Dolby Headphone came out for wireless headphones to arrive in the US, and so far, nada. When are the Philips wireless supposed to hit retail?

There is a potentially huge market for this. I'm an apartment dweller and I need something like this desperately. I invested a little money in a mid-range surround setup, but I can't really use it.

Either way, I'd like something now- not 8 months down the road.

Roger- do you think the Philips units will be better than the Pioneer (and in the same $400 price range)? I'll wait if this is the case.

[Roger Dressler]

>>Roger- do you think the Philips units will be better than the Pioneer (and in the same $400 price range)? I'll wait if this is the case.<<

The industrial design has a more solid look and feel, even than the SE-DIR1000 which is on a higher level than the 800 (although the 800 phones are physically quite nice). I have to wait and use the sample to see how it fares in operation and sound quality.

[DaveFi]

According to the head-fi forums, the Philips have been delayed almost 6mos already.

I might just go for the 800s.

[Roger Dressler]

The fact that samples and demo units are being shipped, and apparently orders being taken by European internet sales sites in UK and Germany, suggests the production is under way. But could not see any info about them shipping to the US thus far.

[DaveFi]

Don't do this to me! OK, I might as well wait a bit longer I guess.

The Pioneer PR says the 800s will hit retail in May, so I'll add another months to that. If the MSRP is $475, that usually means a ~$350 street price (Pioneer is heavily discounted).

At any rate, it appears the folks on Head-Fi are headphone nuts and will pay any price to get a new product, so they'll have the Philips headphones as soon as they're released.

[barhoram]

Just curious...what are these?

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/shoptronics/acreawdodisu.html

I have seen them at several stores locally, they take an optical or coax input. Always seemed interesting to me, but I never bought a pair. They were heavly discounted last time I saw them.

[DaveFi]

Yeah, the AW791. I've tried them. They're pretty crappy. Lots of inteference and the "surround" effect isn't that good. Maybe Roger can comment on how Dolby is used here, but I'm certain it's not Dolby Headphone.

I've seen them go for ~$60.

[catapult]

So far, the problem with all of these is they won't accept the 5.1 analog inputs from multichannel DVD-A or SACD.

I've been looking at the press info and asking questions about the new Sherwood Newcastle pre/pro and receiver. Retail price is $1500 for the pre/pro and $2000 for the receiver but they should street for less. Both have the ability to digitize the 5.1 analog inputs, apply DPL2x if necessary for stereo signals, and play the whole works through Dolby Headphone. They can do the same with the digital inputs. There aren't that many boxes out there that can do all that and none in that price range.

http://www.sherwoodusa.com/prod_p965.html
http://www.sherwoodusa.com/prod_r965.html

[DaveFi]

Yes, that's nice, but I'm talking about wireless headphones.;)

I think I'm going to go with the $189 Sony MDR-DS3000 for now, and see what develops on the DH front. Yes, they're not Dolby Headphone, but for $189 why not? DPLII decoder in there as well as DD/DTS.
http://www.audiocubes.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_62&products_id=564

[HTCrazy]

I'll be interested to hear how you do with the Sony's. Their past models have had a bad reputation of screwing up the sound fields relying on Sony's virtual surround system rather than Dolby Headphone technology which was much better. These say its "Virtual Dolby Surround Certified" which I would want to make sure actually meant Dolby Headphone before i bought.

If it uses Dobly Headphone technology as opposed to Sony's version, there's probably not much to worry about. Though I doubt the quality of the cans themselves (or probably the amp) will be the match of the $400 Pioneers. Since you can't return them, I felt safer going with the highly touted Pioneers, but I'll be interested in your review.

[DaveFi]

Someone else tried to talk me out of the Sonys for reasons you outline. I'm uncertain. Big price difference.

From what I can gather from the translation, the people at Amazon.co.jp seem to like the Sonys.
http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000CGNRC/249-9284347-5160301

[M Code]

Originally posted by catapult
So far, the problem with all of these is they won't accept the 5.1 analog inputs from multichannel DVD-A or SACD.
I've been looking at the press info and asking questions about the new Sherwood Newcastle pre/pro and receiver. Retail price is $1500 for the pre/pro and $2000 for the receiver but they should street for less. Both have the ability to digitize the 5.1 analog inputs, apply DPL2x if necessary for stereo signals, and play the whole works through Dolby Headphone. They can do the same with the digital inputs. There aren't that many boxes out there that can do all that and none in that price range.


The HarmanKardon AVR 430 and AVR 630 both have Dolby Headphone, check around but both are available for <$999. However note that when a signal is input to 6 channel direct they output a stereo (L/R) downmix...

[boykster]

Slightly OT (at least compared to audio quality):

Has anyone tested either their 800 or 1000 setup with a Plasma display? I previously had Sony MDR DS5100 headphone setup (not good...but I needed wireless, and the surround was...uh...nevermind) that I sold because they were completely inoperable with my Panasonic 42" plasma display.

I've heard "rumors" that the pioneer phones/base unit have less of a problem with the interference put out by a plasma display, but before I plunk down the cash, I figured I'd ask =D

Cheers,

Rich

[HTCrazy]

If the Sony's were RF based, I could see where interference would be an issue. The Pioneers use infrared where I don't think interference is a factor at all. Not to mention the sound is so much cleaner - I couldn't tell the difference between wired and my Pioneer 1000s.

[DaveFi]

Apparently the Sony's (at least the new MDR-DS3000) use IR, and still have problems with Plasma.

Translated from BabelFish:
There are times which receive infrared ray transmission disturbance with the light from plasma display, cannot use

[boykster]

Plasmas are notorious for flooding the room with random light spectrum, including IR. There are long discussions on how plamsas disrupt IR distribution systems (Xantech), and they even sell "plasma-proof" ir receivers to thwart the problem. The problem is similar to the problem of CFL lights, but worse.

My sony setup was horribly plagued by the IR interference...

Rich

[rgbyhkr]

Originally posted by Roger Dressler
The 800c is cuter, but I do not find the sound of the headphones to my taste. They are more midrangy than the 1000's. I have yet to do some serious listening to the new Philips units introduced at CES. You can see a picture of it at http://www.dolby.com/Consumer/PersonalSurround/Products/

Roger,

I'm looking at the Pioneer SE-XB1/SE-DIR1000C and the Sony MDR-DS8000 (even though I know the Sony's are not true Dolby). I know you've listened to the former but how about the latter? Either better than the other? By the way, do you know if there is a real difference between the 2 previously mentioned Pioneer models?

Thanks in advance for any and all info you can provide.

Jeff

[Roger Dressler]

Jeff,

Yes, we have a set of the MDR-DS8000's -- we were interested to hear the headtracking and the added EX mode. It is my feeling that neither feature adds materially to the end result. The Pioneer units still provide a more convincing EX effect, among its other attributes.

I have not heard the XB1 version, so cannot confirm their alleged bass increase over the 1000's. It is the case that the very first batch of 1000's had weaker bass, and all later units had that revised. So one possiblility is that since the XB1's came out a little later, they were thought to have more bass. Maybe someone at www.head-fi.com has determined the actual case.

[DaveFi]

Someone at Head-Fi posted a review of the SE-DIR800C and says they're better than the 1000's.
http://www5.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=59025

I'd buy them right now if Audiocubes didn't charge Ma sales tax. As it stands now I'm hoping they truly have domestic release in the US soon. Pioneer products have deep discounts, so hopefully we should see these in the mid $300 range.

[Roger Dressler]

I have had a chance to try the Philips HD-1500 wireless and HP-1500 wired headphone systems. The headphones are physically different from each other, but sonically cut from the same cloth. The wireless ones fit more snugly, the wired version having a slightly larger earcup. Both have superbly smooth and clean sound, and deep, natural bass. Nothing overemphasized. First time I've heard phones I like better than my HD600's. The wireless processor unit also has 2 headphone jack outputs, so can drive your other headphones to very high levels cleanly. The wireless link (these are the German units) run at 864 MHz with 5 choices, and uses digital modulation for noiseless transmission. It's not straight PCM like the Pioneers', but it sounds almost as clean. The unit itself has the feel of a small AV receiver, extruded aluminum front panel, nice switches and indicators. Very impressive achievement overall.

[TL5]

Will there be a U.s. version of the Philips wireless headphones?

[DaveFi]

The Philips were supposed to be released in Europe last year and they've been delayed a number of times. US release sometime later.

You can tell I'm chomping at the bit for a wireless Dolby Headphone product, and I'll just buy whatever's available here first. I suspect that will be the Pioneer by a number of months if not longer.

[catapult]

I downloaded the Philips manual and it looks really nice. But there's no 5.1 analog input for multichannel SACD/DVD-A. Hello, Philips, what were you thinking? :confused:

[DaveFi]

There is no such animal anywhere. I don't even know of a receiver that does this.

Just use the stereo track SACD/DVD-A output for this and use Pro-Logic II Music to encode it if you really must have surround music. I find it just as good and prefer Pro-Logic II encoding in most cases over the pre-done surround mix.

RF phones? Well, Roger I'll take your word for it, but I've never had much success with them- too prone to interference.

What's more conerning is the lack of Optical S/PDIF input, which most receivers use for pass-through/tape output.

[catapult]

There is no such animal anywhere. I don't even know of a receiver that does this. Newcastle, Denon and HK have models that do it. As well, the new Yamaha can do it, albiet with their own proprietary substitute for Dolby Headphone. Thanks for the suggestion of ignoring the multichannel tracks I paid good money for, not to mention the cost of the multichannel player, but I think I'll pass. ;)

[Roger Dressler]

>>RF phones? Well, Roger I'll take your word for it, but I've never had much success with them- too prone to interference.<<

I know where you are coming from--been there, heard that. FM RF is very hard to keep clean. This link is digital with error correction. It is a solid connection based at least on this sample. I do feel the IR link is slightly superior due to the higher datarate PCM they use in the Pioneer units. On the other hand, the RF link is totally immune to stray sun, FL or PDP light interference.

[Will]

In actual usage, how much was the IR link affected by stray sun, FL and/or PDP light interface?

[boykster]

Will,

I used to have the Sony MDR DS5100 system, that is IR, and I experienced very bad IR interference from my PDP (Panasonic 42" commercial version). The set was completely unusable due to the interference from the PDP.

As far as sunlight, this was a non-issue, and I never used them near a FL light of any type, so I don't know if/how they would be affected. CFL lights are known to interfere with IR distribution systems, so I don't know if they would be IR headphone friendly.

Rich

[jaso]

Roger Dressler,

Do you know how much higher datarate the Pioneer units has compared to the HD1500?

If not, would you like to take a guess?

I´ve ordered the HD1500 and was happy to hear your report from CES about them! Thanks!

/Anders

[Roger Dressler]

>>Do you know how much higher datarate the Pioneer units has compared to the HD1500?<<

The Pioneer and Sony units use 1.5 Mbps for the audio payload plus overhead for error correction. I believe the total data rate is somewhere around 2 Mbps. I have no details of the digital channel used by Philips. Since they mention "dynamic bit allocation" in the manual and since they largely invented MPEG1, that may be an indication. Assuming all of the above, I would venture a guess that the audio is coded in a few hundred kbps. This is pure speculation, though.

Looking forward to your user report!

[DaveFi]

I'm going to bite on the Pioneers soon. I'm restraining myself from buying the Japanese version...I might give in.

[jaso]

Is there any news about the HD-/HP-1500? Philips isn´t helpful at all when I ask questions about them :/.

-jaso

[KaiZas]

Our Philips supplier tells me the units should become available the first the first week of May. Which came and went :(

I'm also looking forward to direct comparisons betweent de DIR800 and the HD1500. If only philips were to hurry up and get them out on the street already!

Ah well, I still have my Dolby Headphones function in nVDVD to keep me from rushing into this.

[DaveFi]

The Pioneer SE-DIR800C is now available in the US:
http://www.onecall.com/PID_22120.htm

I'm not willing to pay MSRP as Pioneer products are so heavily discounted. It's only a matter of time now before retailers like 6thAve picks them up.

[Erik Garci]

I received the Pioneer SE-DIR800C from Onecall.com (http://www.onecall.com/PID_22120.htm) today.

Am I the first person to receive the USA version?

I placed the order by phone on Monday. I asked the salesperson (Matt) if he could match the $269 price at Datavis.com (http://www.datavis.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=446764&prmenbr=2000), but he told me that it's not a reputable dealer. However, he offered to sell them to me for $290 plus shipping ($13.18), which is much lower than the $399 price listed on their site. By the way, they claim to be an "Authorized Internet Dealer" for Pioneer, which may be useful for warranty purposes.

One thing I noticed right away is that the gray plastic is much darker than the Japanese version.

[edwardacampbell]

Must be. I'll have to go peek and see if Pioneer has the US version of the manual, yet?

[Roto]

Originally posted by Erik Garci
I received the Pioneer SE-DIR800C from Onecall.com (http://www.onecall.com/PID_22120.htm) today.

Am I the first person to receive the USA version?

I placed the order by phone on Monday. I asked the salesperson (Matt) if he could match the $269 price at Datavis.com (http://www.datavis.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=446764&prmenbr=2000), but he told me that it's not a reputable dealer. However, he offered to sell them to me for $290 plus shipping ($13.18), which is much lower than the $399 price listed on their site. By the way, they claim to be an "Authorized Internet Dealer" for Pioneer, which may be useful for warranty purposes.

One thing I noticed right away is that the gray plastic is much darker than the Japanese version.
Man, $300 is making this very tempting for this apartment dweller! I just checked Reseller Ratings and DataVis has a pretty good rating for the last 6 months, just a poor lifetime rating. Their website looks ok. I need more reviews before I'd mail order for these though. I haven't heard anything bad yet. I wish Costco would stock these.

[DaveFi]

Datavis is no good. Look at their report on www.bbb.org and see what I mean.

$300 is excellent- I think I'll pick up a pair.

[Roto]

I just wanted to see what shipping would cost and you can't add the headphones to your cart on DataVision's site, so I guess it doesn't matter :) I did look at their BBB report and they do seem to have improved in the last year. I wouldn't be afraid to purchase from them any more than a place like Tiger Direct. One Call for $290 sounds great. It's going to be difficult, but I'm going to try to wait until these start showing up in stores so I can actually see them in person first.

[Erik Garci]

I took some pictures (http://home1.gte.net/res18h39/headphones/).

[Gordon McGregor]

Originally posted by boykster
Will,
I used to have the Sony MDR DS5100 system, that is IR, and I experienced very bad IR interference from my PDP (Panasonic 42" commercial version). The set was completely unusable due to the interference from the PDP.
As far as sunlight, this was a non-issue, and I never used them near a FL light of any type, so I don't know if/how they would be affected. CFL lights are known to interfere with IR distribution systems, so I don't know if they would be IR headphone friendly.
Rich
I don't know about the Pioneer system, but Sony's IF5100 is a fake. They use 48kHz input sampling frequency max, the elements inside are the cheapest ones (I have a lot of pictures), and I paid for that stuff $500 ... it were the first Dolby IR phones available ... And now I paid even less amount for Lynx L22 soundcard ... funny, is't it? It's a Sony! :D
The same interferences from my Pioneer PDP 50CMX, sound quality is OK for mp3 only ... etc. Nice lesson :D

[DaveFi]

The 5100 isn't "Dolby Headphone" anyways, it uses Sony's propriatary format, which is adequate at best.

Dolby Headphone is pretty impressive, and I'm looking forward to watching alot of HDTV with my soon to be arriving 800C.:)

[Roto]

OK, call me a gambler, but I went ahead and ordered from DataVis (you can add it to your cart only after you register) since someone in the headfi thread said they got the last one from onecall at the $290+s/h price. I didn't bother to call to confirm that, but it made enough sense to me that they might not keep giving that price so I figured I may as well jump in now at this price because it probably won't get lower any time soon.

The price with ground shipping ended up being about $280. I'll report back how it goes.

[Erik Garci]

Originally posted by Erik Garci
By the way, they claim to be an "Authorized Internet Dealer" for Pioneer, which may be useful for warranty purposes.
Just to follow up, Pioneer's web site confirms that Onecall.com is authorized (http://www.pioneerusa.com/pna/article/0,,2076_3125_73813286,00.html), and thus the warranty is offered (http://www.pioneerusa.com/pna/article/top/0,,2076_83644739,00.html).

[Q of BanditZ]

So, are the Pioneer's here the best of their kind or what? Call me a hopeful skeptic of all this... ;)

[DaveFi]

They are the first of their kind, at least in the US. They've been available in Japan for around 6 months now.

Since the introduction of Dolby Headphone I've been waiting for wireless headphones that used it. Why it took so long is a mystery.

[Roger Dressler]

>>So, are the Pioneer's here the best of their kind or what? Call me a hopeful skeptic of all this... <<

It depends what factors into your definition:
-Cost
-Performance of wireless vs wired
-Headphone quality, etc

If headphone processing is important, but not necessarily wireless phones, then I prefer the Philips HP-1500. The phones are great and the headphone processor can drive them loud and clean. Nice looking stuff, too.

The Pioneer's use PCM digital transmission, so their wireless performance sounds virtually wired. The Philips wireless version, HD-1500, uses a digital RF link with audio compression (my guess is a form of MPEG1, but the manual doesn't say), which is fully immune to plasma/light interference, and does work very well for movies and TV. For more critical music it's not quite as transparent as Pioneer's link, but you have to be picky to be bothered by it. I'm picky. Even the two Philips units use slightly different headphone designs--the wireless is a smaller cup than the wired version--the feel and sound differ somewhat. So many aspects to choose! You have to experience them the really see how they fit your taste.

[DaveFi]

Except the Philips have been delayed for almost 2yrs now! I would have loved to compare the two.

The Pioneer is available here and now, so I purchased it.

[Erik Garci]

Are the Philips models (cordless SBC HD1500 (http://www.consumer.philips.com/global/b2c/ce/catalog/product.jhtml?divId=0&groupId=CONVENIENCE_GR&catId=VISION_ACCESSORIES_CA&subCatId=ACCESSORIES_MONITORS_SU&productId=SBCHD1500_17) and corded SBC HP1500 (http://www.consumer.philips.com/global/b2c/ce/catalog/product.jhtml?divId=0&groupId=CONVENIENCE_GR&catId=VISION_ACCESSORIES_CA&subCatId=ACCESSORIES_MONITORS_SU&productId=SBCHP1500_17)) available in any US stores yet? The press release (http://www.ces2004.philips.com/downloads/sbc_hd1500/sbc_hd1500.pdf) states that they will be available in May 2004.

By the way, the Pioneer and Philips units can be used with any corded headphones by connecting them to the output jack on the front. You can even connect a headphone amplifier to the output jack. In my case, I have used the Sennheiser HD600 connected to the Creek OBH-11 connected to the Pioneer. One caveat: I sometimes hear distortion of bass frequencies when I turn the volume knob on the Pioneer beyond the 1 o'clock position, so I just keep it at 1 o'clock and use the volume knob on the Creek instead.

[DaveFi]

Also, another big problem with the HD1500 is that they don't have optical input! Since most receivers (including mine) only have Optical passthru it makes them totally useless to me.

[Q of BanditZ]

What are the best WIRED Dolby headphones out?

[Roger Dressler]

>>What are the best WIRED Dolby headphones out?<<

Probably from the Tag McLaren AV32/192 processors.

In a dedicated headphone processor, the Pioneer SE-DIR1000c has more gas than the DIR800, and the Philips has more than either. But I have not had a problem driving HD600's with either the DIR1000 or Philips. I did find the 800 just short of adequate for those bombastic bass peaks as Erik mentioned. 32-ohm phones ought to have no problem, though. As far as signal purity, I do not find any particular differences. That does not mean they don't exist, though.

[Erik Garci]

Originally posted by Roger Dressler
I did find the 800 just short of adequate for those bombastic bass peaks as Erik mentioned. 32-ohm phones ought to have no problem, though.
Just to clarify, I hear the bass distortion on all wired headphones. The ohm rating doesn't matter. However, if I keep the volume knob at 1 o'clock or lower, then I don't hear the bass distortion on any wired headphones. If 1 o'clock is not loud enough for you, then you can connect a separate headphone amp for more power, especially if your wired headphones have a high ohm rating.

I'll also point out that I never hear the bass distortion on the wireless headphones.

[Roger Dressler]

Erik wrote:
>>The ohm rating doesn't matter.<<

If a lower impedance headphone plays louder than others (HD600 is hi-Z) then you can run the volume control lower for the same loudness. That can make the shortcomings of the amp less of an issue. They invented 32 ohm phones so that 1-battery portable devices could play loud enough.

[Erik Garci]

Originally posted by Roger Dressler
If a lower impedance headphone plays louder than others (HD600 is hi-Z) then you can run the volume control lower for the same loudness. That can make the shortcomings of the amp less of an issue. They invented 32 ohm phones so that 1-battery portable devices could play loud enough.
I agree, but the impedance still doesn't cause the bass distortion that I'm hearing.

[barhoram]

I have a question....many of the software DVD packages are now including dolby headphone as an option (PowerDVD). Would sending the output of a high end sound card to a standard set of headphones give the same effect? I have a pair of Siennheiser HD280 pro's. I understand that a headphone amp is probably also dersired..but would there be any difference in the sound processing if achieved this way? Is dolby headphone, dolby headphone regradless if it is process via software or an external box?

[Roger Dressler]

>>I agree, but the impedance still doesn't cause the bass distortion that I'm hearing.<<

Right. I don't think I said it did. Any headphone amp can clip. The issue is if it is loud enough before it clips.

[Roger Dressler]

barhoram wrote: >>would there be any difference in the sound processing if achieved this way? Is dolby headphone, dolby headphone regradless if it is process via software or an external box?<<

The DH algorithm is the same, but there are many perils in the PC audio path that can affect the ultimate result, like stray 3D processing, etc.

[shine5555]

OK Quick Question. I have heard a Headphone Demo at Disney MGM Studio's. It was awesome. Really un-beleaveable. Disney also has a neat demo in the Alien something or another at the Magic Kingdom. Was that a demo of Dolby Headphones? Next question.....Do you need the DVD to be encoded with a Dolby Headphone track to use these headphones? I am not sure how I would hook some of these up? I would love to get some Dolby Headphones and just put in my DVD and listen to the movie if it was like what I heard at the Disney Parks.

Thanks,
- Scott

[barhoram]

PC audio path that can affect the ultimate result, like stray 3D processing, etc.

What do you mean by this??? Gimmicky surrnound formats? Just make certain they are turned off? I'm guessing Kmixer might cause an issue as well?

[Roto]

I have a Hercules GameTheater XP soundcard (at least I think that's the correct name, they don't make it anymore). It has a breakout box with a 1/4" headphone jack and sounds pretty good with Dolby Headphone using PowerDVD. Definitely better than my Sony receiver and it's Headphone Theater mode (which is still a step up from plain 2 stereo). I will be able to compare it once I get the Pioneer cans. Ground shipped from Datavis, could be a while.

[DaveFi]

Got mine. These rock!

Much better than any software version of Dolby Headphone, and I can use it for HDTV as well.:D

Best home theater purchase in a long while. I think I'll be spending much less on receivers now.

So any input on what's the best listening mode? The transmitter defaults to DH2. DH3 better for movies?

[Erik Garci]

DaveFi,

Have you heard the bass distortion that I described? It is very noticeable during the opening scene of Star Wars Ep2.

I mostly use DH1 for music. DH2 is also good for music. DH3 is probably better for live concerts.

I'm not yet sure what I prefer for movies.

[Roger Dressler]

>>What do you mean by this??? Gimmicky surrnound formats? Just make certain they are turned off? I'm guessing Kmixer might cause an issue as well?<<

Yes, any other signal processing can impede the virtualization effect of Dolby Headphone, so just make sure they are turned off. The Kmixer is not a problem.

Let me make clear that in an AV receiver, it is OK to apply any/all DSP modes on top of the 5.1 signal, and then feed all of it to DH. The problem arises when the DH signal itself is further processed.

[dworld]

Roger,

Any Pioneer, Philips wireless Headphones with DH ever coming to Australia :confused:

[DaveFi]

Erik- I only listened to them a bit last night. I wouldn't consider it a fair review untill they were burned-in anyways.

As far as distortion goes, I'd mainly use the wireless cans so the amp in the transmitter isn't much of an issue for me. Should be adequate if I have a friend over. If you read JMedeiros review on Head-Fi he says they even out over time anyways.

My initial impressions are very good. For $300 it's a stellar buy- I wouldn't say they sound as good as my 15yr old MDR-V6s, but few cans have the low-end the V6s do. Still, for the money they are the best wireless cans I've heard- and they can only improve.

If the Audio-Technica ATH-DCL3000 cans are much better, I might consider grabbing a pair (when they are available seperately) and using the 800s for backup.

[Erik Garci]

Originally posted by DaveFi
As far as distortion goes, I'd mainly use the wireless cans so the amp in the transmitter isn't much of an issue for me. Should be adequate if I have a friend over. If you read JMedeiros review on Head-Fi he says they even out over time anyways.
I'm interested in finding out whether the bass distortion is common to all units or specific to my unit.

[Q of BanditZ]

Where's some good places to buy both the wired and wireless headphones being discussed in this thread? Any recommendations?

[DaveFi]

I'll plug my wired headphones in later.

www.onecall.com and www.rcsnet.com were the only places I could find that had the Pioneers. Onecall lowered the price to $290, but they said I was the last to get in on that price. Not sure if RCSNet is authorized or not.

[boykster]

Quick question (I skimmed the new posts, but may have missed it):

Has anyone tried these Pioneer headphones with a Plasma TV? I have a panasonic 5UY commercial model in my theater, that played havoc with my Sony IR surround headphones to the point that I sold them. I've been looking/waiting for a replacement for several months.

TIY

Rich

[barhoram]

What is the range of the Pioneers?

[Erik Garci]

The Pioneer uses infrared which requires a line of sight. In other words, you will totally lose the signal if you do anything that blocks the line of sight (such as leaving the room, covering both sides of your head, etc). I don't know what the maximum range is, but I can probably find out.

[DaveFi]

I noticed some distortion on the low-end of the wireless phones, and some clicking on the high-end. I'll definitely have to give this one more time.

Haven't tried the amp yet.

[Roger Dressler]

Erik wrote: >>I'm interested in finding out whether the bass distortion is common to all units or specific to my unit.<<

It is the same on all units of that model (DIR800). The maximum voltage swing isn't quite as high as on other Pioneer or Philips units. Below clipping on the bass peaks the signal is quite clean.

boykster wrote: >>Has anyone tried these Pioneer headphones with a Plasma TV? I have a panasonic 5UY commercial model in my theater, that played havoc with my Sony IR surround headphones to the point that I sold them. I've been looking/waiting for a replacement for several months.<<

The Pioneer uses the same IR system as the Sony. You should check into the Philips unit (HD1500) which is RF. (Assuming you can find it.)

barhoram wrote: >>What is the range of the Pioneers?<<

I've used them at 30 feet with no problem.

[Erik Garci]

Originally posted by Roger Dressler
It is the same on all units of that model (DIR800). The maximum voltage swing isn't quite as high as on other Pioneer or Philips units. Below clipping on the bass peaks the signal is quite clean.
I agree that the signal is clean below the clipping point. I suspect that the LFE channel on DD5.1 and DTS movies is more likely to clip because it is supposed to be decoded at 10db higher than the other channels.
I've used them at 30 feet with no problem.
I have as well. Beyond that, I haven't tried.

[Q of BanditZ]

Someone recommended me a set of wired dolbys a couple of pages back. Anyone have anymore input in that direction?

[Rgb]

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
Someone recommended me a set of wired dolbys a couple of pages back. Anyone have anymore input in that direction?

Don't know if someone mentioned this option in this thread, but you could get a nice loaded full blown receiver with Dolby Headphone like the HK AVR430 for less than $500 and plug in your favorite wired headphones. Or add generic wirless headphones to it.

With this option, you could have a "silent" dedicated home theater, with multiple receiver generic headphones for each guest. Throw in shakers for each chair, and guest get surround sound plus tactile feedback, and those not watching aren't annoyed ;).

[Erik Garci]

Do any receivers have 5.1-channel analog input and Dolby Headphone?

(The Pioneer wireless headphones have 2-channel analog input.)

[Q of BanditZ]

Originally posted by Rgb
Don't know if someone mentioned this option in this thread, but you could get a nice loaded full blown receiver with Dolby Headphone like the HK AVR430 for less than $500 and plug in your favorite wired headphones. Or add generic wirless headphones to it.

With this option, you could have a "silent" dedicated home theater, with multiple receiver generic headphones for each guest. Throw in shakers for each chair, and guest get surround sound plus tactile feedback, and those not watching aren't annoyed ;).

Nice!

Do a lot of these receivers these days have the Dolby Headphone jack option that you refer to you here? I have some nice $100+ Sony headphones as is...

[DaveFi]

Most receivers don't have Dolby Headphone. Maybe Roger could explain why? I thought this would be a must like normal DD, or DTS, but for some reason the manufacturers haven't picked up on it.

I like the Pioneer standalone transmitter/amp better than a regular receiver. It makes it easy to add as many wireless headphones as you want. I'm tempted to downgrade my receiver/amp because all I really need is a basic amp with Optical passthrough for switching- The VSX-D912 I have is way too much for my aparment.

[Roto]

Well I don't know why either, but the AVR430 is the lowest end on HK sells with it and it retails for $999. The cheapest I could find it online was about $550. They have 3 models below it (130, 230, and 330) that don't have Dolby Headphone. It must cost money, otherwise it doesn't make sense. You'd think Dolby Headphone would be a good selling point for entry to mid level receivers, or even home theater in a box type systems.

[Roger Dressler]

>>Most receivers don't have Dolby Headphone. Maybe Roger could explain why?<<

You can lead a horse to water...

[dworld]

Kenwood is bringing out the following with DH...

NHT-815DV (http://news.designtechnica.com/article3642.html)

and the

VRS-7100 (http://www.preisvergleich-guenstiger.de/preisvergleich/325247/Receiver/Kenwood/VRS-7100/Kenwood_VRS-7100.html)

intega, onkyo and Harman Kardon also have Dolby Headphone Systems.

Denon has the D-M71DVXP (http://www.dolby.com/Consumer/PersonalSurround/Products/) DVD receiver system

There's another Denon theater system with Dolby Headphone but I think it's only in Europe.

http://www.areadvd.de/news/2003/200309/03092003003.shtml

There could be more around but I can't remember them off hand. Anyway the point is that Dolby Headphone is gradually making into AV's etc.... and about time too!!!

[DaveFi]

After some more listening to my DIR-800C I'm beginning to think the problem I was having before was on the B5 soundtrack and not the phones.

The phones, while being somewhat bright, are definitely much better at creating a big soundstage than my MDR-V6s are. I plugged in the V6s and didn't really notice distortion, not enough to bother me.

I watched Deadwood with the 800C's cans and it did quite a nice job. I do prefer DH1 over DH2, as it's a little less echoey (new word!).

Nice purchase. I'm very happy with these.

[MAB]

There is no plasma interference with the 800c, correct?

[Roger Dressler]

>>There is no plasma interference with the 800c, correct?<<

I would not conclude that. It uses IR transmission just like the Sony. The potential is there.

[boykster]

Hmm...lost my other post somehow....

Did I read correctly that the 800c uses a digital transmission system? Wouldn't this be helpful ala HDTV transmissions, where if the signal is above a certain noise floor, that you receive a good transmission? Whereas an analog transmission would be noisy.

For example, my crappy sony phones "worked" when the plasma was on, but there was significant noise. They use an analog transmission system. But I used to receive HDTV via a roofmounted antenna....even though my signal strength was erratic, as long as it was above a certain threshold, I received crystal clear pictures.

If I misread/misinterpreted the digital aspect of these phones, then disregard.

Oh, and I knew that my sony phones were not "true" dolby, but they were all that was available at the time for a pseudo surround dolby wireless solution at the time (and they were free.....wedding gift).

cheers,

Rich

[DaveFi]

The 800c is all digital, but it's IR (light) and Plasma can interfere with IR transmission.

The range for the 800c is pretty good- I'm able to sit a pretty steep angle under the transmitter and still get clear reception. The transmitter is standing vertically- maybe that helps?

For what it's worth, here are the specs in the manual:

Decoder- DD, DPL II, DTS, PCM (44.1kHz, 48kHz)
DH Modes- DH1/DH2/DH3/OFF
DPLII modes- Auto/Movie/Music/Off
Modulation: DQPSK
Secondary Carrier wave frequency: 3.75MHz
Transmission distance: Approx 8m to the front
Transmission range: 12Hz-22kHz
Distortion rate: 1% or less (1kHz)
Audio Input: Optical, Coax and analog (l+r)

Phones- SE-DHP800

Frequency: 12Hz-22kHz
Uses 2 AA batteries
Mass: 250g (excluding batteries)

It's interesting the phones share the dynamic range of the transmitter. This is a nicely engineered piece of consumer electronics. You can tell alot of thought went into this to make them as comfortable as possible.

I will probably invest in the Audio-Technica cans if they turn out to be better.

[boykster]

Thanks for the response Dave...

I guess my point was this:

when you are off-axis or at a steep angle with the 800c's, do you hear distortion or noise in the signal, or when you lose signal is it a binary event (on -> off). If it is a binary event, then it is possible that these will work with a plasma tv....but it is still a risk that the signal will be subject to constant dropouts, rather than noise, so it's still not a done deal. If the noise floor the plasma creates is below the noise floor of the headphones for transmission, then it will work....how well is another question.

I realize that these are IR, and that the plasma will interfere....just trying to guage the risk in purchasing a set to test.

thanks!

Rich

[Roto]

Originally posted by dworld
Kenwood is bringing out the following with DH...

VRS-7100 (http://www.preisvergleich-guenstiger.de/preisvergleich/325247/Receiver/Kenwood/VRS-7100/Kenwood_VRS-7100.html)

That receiver looks promising
Here's a press release (http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/24307.html) . It says it will be available in May with a MSRP of $500. I don't see it anywhere online in the USA yet, but it must be coming soon.

[DaveFi]

Rich- My living room is about 30x16 and I've walked the whole length of it without losing the signal. It cuts out abruptly when I walk into the next room- there is no distortion other than an occasional bit of static.

I suggest you buy them from a store with a liberal return policy.

[boykster]

Interesting...okay, good suggestion.

Cheers,

Rich

[catapult]

Do any receivers have 5.1-channel analog input and Dolby Headphone? Very few. The only "low priced" one I've found is the HK 630. The HK 430 has DH but it can't digitize the 5.1 analog input. The 630 is only about $100 more than the 430 at Onecall so it looks like a better buy for using DH with SACD/DVD-A.

[GregHoey]

Has anybody listened to these AKG HEARO 999 AUDIOSPHERE II Dolby Digital
Wireless headphones?

The specs and features sound incredible . . .

<http://db.widescreenreview.com/wsrmmbr/weeknews/FMPro?-db=webnewsearch.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail.htm&-sortfield=rank&-op=cn&Type=Web%20News&Year=2004&Month=05&Day=21&-recid=41469&-find=>

. . . . and for $ 1200 -- they should.

Anybody?

Bueller?

Anybody?

[DaveFi]

You'ld think for $1200 they'ld throw in Dolby Headphone. Nah, that's asking too much.:eek:

[MAB]

How long do the batteries last on the 800c?
Thanks!

[DaveFi]

They come with 2 1600mAh AA, which lasts up to 16hrs.

I just have a whole bunch of cheapie 1600mAh AA I keep charged and cycling around my stuff. If you don't want to spend 10secs changing batteries more often you can go for the 2200s. I'll probably pick up some when the price drops.

[Q of BanditZ]

Originally posted by GregHoey
Has anybody listened to these AKG HEARO 999 AUDIOSPHERE II Dolby Digital
Wireless headphones?

The specs and features sound incredible . . .

<http://db.widescreenreview.com/wsrmmbr/weeknews/FMPro?-db=webnewsearch.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail.htm&-sortfield=rank&-op=cn&Type=Web%20News&Year=2004&Month=05&Day=21&-recid=41469&-find=>

. . . . and for $ 1200 -- they should.

Anybody?

Bueller?

Anybody?

I can't ever see paying that much money for headphones, regardless of what they do. IMHO.

[DaveFi]

Maybe you're not, but there are lots of folks willing to spend much more than that. Check out www.head-fi.org.

[MAB]

Originally posted by DaveFi
They come with 2 1600mAh AA, which lasts up to 16hrs.


Sounds good. Thanks for the feedback. I was expecting 4-6 hours max.

Now, that Kenwood unit looks good on paper as well.

[weetoots]

Can you buy an extra headset to go with the Pioneer 800?
Al

[dworld]

Is this what you mean by Extra (http://www.audiocubes.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_62&products_id=644&osCsid=a7f799337afa58f4082cdb03be919d0d) 800 Headphones?

[Q of BanditZ]

Originally posted by DaveFi
Maybe you're not, but there are lots of folks willing to spend much more than that. Check out www.head-fi.org.

Guess some folks have lots of money to burn. I'm not one of them. ;)

[weetoots]

DWORLD,
Yes, that is exactly what I mean. Excellent. Now is there a West coast dealer?
Q 0f BanditZ
You are not alone in the money dept. These are just what I need. No big amp sucking ups lots of electricity just to power a couple of headphones.
Besides trying to save enough to get that Zenith 318.
Thanks for all of your help.
Al

[DaveFi]

The US retail version of the 800c phones should be ~$100.

Now the ATH-DCL3000 (http://www.audiocubes.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_62&products_id=736&os) phones look cool and they work with Pioneer's transmitter. I'm hoping AT releases them in the US.

BTW- I just noticed the "DTS Virtual" logo on the SE-800C box, and never heard of it before. It appears these headphones are one of the first ones to use it and down-mixes a 6.1 track.
http://www.dtsonline.com/technology/at-a-glance.php

[Roger Dressler]

>>I just noticed the "DTS Virtual" logo on the SE-800C box, and never heard of it before. It appears these headphones are one of the first ones to use it and down-mixes a 6.1 track.<<

This is just DTS's way of allowing a logo on a decoder product that has only 2-ch virtualized outputs instead of 5.1 discrete outputs. It was modeled after Dolby's "Virtual Dolby" logo program, which was used when certified virtualizers were mated with Dolby Pro Logic or Dolby Digital decoding. The DTS Virtual logo first appeared on the Sony MDR5000 series units, along with the Virtual Dolby Digital logo.

The DTS "downmix" in the Sony case was provided by "VPT," Sony Virtual Phones Technology. In the Pioneer units it is courtesy of Dolby Headphone.

[Rgb]

Originally posted by Roger Dressler
>>I just noticed the "DTS Virtual" logo on the SE-800C box, and never heard of it before. It appears these headphones are one of the first ones to use it and down-mixes a 6.1 track.<<

This is just DTS's way of allowing a logo on a decoder product that has only 2-ch virtualized outputs instead of 5.1 discrete outputs. It was modeled after Dolby's "Virtual Dolby" logo program, which was used when certified virtualizers were mated with Dolby Pro Logic or Dolby Digital decoding. The DTS Virtual logo first appeared on the Sony MDR5000 series units, along with the Virtual Dolby Digital logo.

The DTS "downmix" in the Sony case was provided by "VPT," Sony Virtual Phones Technology. In the Pioneer units it is courtesy of Dolby Headphone.

Ironic how DTS has to rely on a Dolby technology to get surround sound via headphones ;) I like the term "DTS Virtual", since DTS' superiority over DD is in DTS' head (i.e. "virtual") <DTS bashing off> :D.

[MAB]

Suddenly, I am interested in the ATH-DCL3000. How much improvement should I expect over the Pioneer ones?

[MAB]

Also, which would be a better addition to this type of phones: bass shakers or a good sub?

[DaveFi]

Suddenly, I am interested in the ATH-DCL3000. How much improvement should I expect over the Pioneer ones?Not $600+ worth that's for sure. Someone living in Tokyo posted about the AT cans at Head-Fi and said they aren't that much better than the 800s. The 800s are freakin' amazing for $300. It's really wild to have sounds coming out of your head.

Roger, speaking of which, I was wondering which DH mode you prefer the best? The 800s default to DH2, but according to most websites I've read, DH2 is supposedly better for music listening? So far, I think the DH1 mode is good for general listening (TV shows, anime, etc) with DH2 better for theatrical films. Initially I thought the echo of DH2 was a bit much, but after a while I got used to it.

[gaderson]

I've been keeping up with the recent post on this thread, and have wondered about how these headphones compare to my old Lucas (a wired Dolby ProLogic headphone unit)? What about the AKG one. Mostly it would be cool to be able to just output from digital, rather than having to add the stereo analog to my system to use the headphone units.

[Roger Dressler]

>>Roger, speaking of which, I was wondering which DH mode you prefer the best?<<

After living with DH now for quite a while, the fave at Dolby (and mine) is DH2. I used to switch to DH1 for some talk shows, but I don't bother anymore. DH2 works great for movies and music. DH2 is what was used on the Pearl Harbor the T2 SE DVDs.

[MAB]

DaveFi, thanks for the feedback.

I am going to get one of the 800s. Is audiocubes the only place selling it?

[weetoots]

Has anyone found a West coast dealer, who sells for less than MSRP? I have one dealer here in Oahu but he's only $10 under. YUK
I am ready to buy but need a better price.
Al

[DaveFi]

As I stated earlier, I got OneCall.com to match Erik's price of $303 shipped. They did state it would be the last one at that price.

[Erik Garci]

Originally posted by DaveFi
They did state it would be the last one at that price.
Does that mean that they have no more in stock, or that they will no longer match the price even if they have some in stock?

[DaveFi]

The guy said no more price matches, but I suppose it's worth a shot. I don't know why he was telling me this, as I got mine anyways.:D

[Roto]

Just an update. I ordered the Pioneer headphones from datavis.com on May 13th despite their low reseller rating. It was listed as in stock on their site but I just got the email that it shipped June 5th. It should get to me this Friday. I did email sales@datavis.com twice to ask about the shipping status and never got a reply. I don't think anyone checks that address. I think they probably focus more on their in-store sales than their website. As long as I get the headphones in tact I'll be satisfied for $289, but they deserve their low rating for slow delivery and poor communication.

[Q of BanditZ]

Here's a question: If I own a pair of Sony MDR-V700's, nice headphones, and I connect them into a receiver that has Dolby headphone capability, does that basically give me the same kind of thing being discussed in this thread?

[M Code]

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
Here's a question: If I own a pair of Sony MDR-V700's, nice headphones, and I connect them into a receiver that has Dolby headphone capability, does that basically give me the same kind of thing being discussed in this thread?

YES..
Thats why having it built into the AVR like the HK 430 or 630 is the most cost effective way to get Dolby Headphone.. Spend $400 just for the separate Dolby headphones..
or spend $600 to get it built into a complete AVR..

[Q of BanditZ]

:D :D :D :D :D

<in Mr. Smither's voice:> Eeeeeeeeeeexcellent.

[MAB]

I tried them finally in the city here. The base unit was surrounded by about six plasma screens.

I am happy to report that the link was solid and there was no interference.

I am going to get one soon. It works with plasmas no problem.

Although I was impressed by the LCR separation, the surround channel reproduction was not good.

Nice overall gadget.

[weetoots]

Mab
What is the price at this NYCity vendor?

[Roto]

Originally posted by MAB

Although I was impressed by the LCR separation, the surround channel reproduction was not good.

Nice overall gadget.
After finally getting mine on Friday and using them over the weekend I have to disagree with this statement. While watching Deadwood last night the rear surround was working very well. It sounded similar to having the rear speakers set up directly to each side and there was definitely an illusion of distance. It sounded farther away than my speakers did which is only about 4-5 feet. When sound was supposed to be coming from the rear it did, but it didn't sound as far away. It was more like having a speaker less than a foor behind you.

Overall I'm very pleased with the Pioneer headphones. They are a little bulky, but fairly easy to get used to. They aren't uncomfortable at all. The transmitter portion seems sturdily built, though the wired headphone amp gets pretty hot. I wish it had 1/4" input instead of the 1/8", and a little remote control would've been nice too, to turn it on/off and select the different modes. It has a very good range and no distortion or hiss that I've heard from early IR wireless headphones.

I wouldn't say I like using the headphones more than my speakers, but they are an excellent second option.

[MAB]

The price was $349.

[DaveFi]

I've had mine for over a month now and would say I like it more than my speaker setup.

1- They're enclosed- I can make them as loud as I want and not have to worry about pissing off my neighbors. No more finger on the volume button.

2- The surround effect is very good. Just leave it on DH2 and eventually you won't even notice the echo.

These are good cans in general. I am now looking at purchasing another pair for guests.

I watched Master and Commander the other day and was quite impressed.

[Roto]

I've used mine a lot since I got them. Pretty much any time after 10:00. Blocks out the noise from the projector too. Sometimes I switch to plugging in my small Sennheiser PX-200s when I get tired of wearing the big wireless Pioneers.

Haven't had any problems yet. One time it wasn't getting any signal from the optical input until I unplugged it and plugged it back in. Turning it off and on wasn't enough. Usual random electronics weirdness.

[Veech]

I do a lot of 5.1 audio mixing on my PC. I have been searching high and low for a set of 5.1 headphones that I can use during the mixing process. My sound card is an Audigy 2 ZS platinum. Apparently it will not allow digital output of 5.1 due to copyright concerns, at least that's what I've been told. So I use the analog ourputs and have my Logitech Z-680's set up for 5.1 monitoring.

I am very excited about the Pioneer SE-DIR800C's but would they be appropriate to use in this application? Is there a way to hook them up to 5.1 analog ouputs from the sound card? I encode 5.1 audio in DTS and use PowerDVD as the decoder.

thanks all,

Veech

[Roger Dressler]

The consumer units with Dolby Headphone only take in 5.1 encoded content in Dolby Digital and DTS formats. There was a pro version made by Lake called HSM6240 which is described at http://www.lake.com.au/files/pdf/TP_HSM6240_new.pdf and it accepts 5.1 analog signals, but it is not manufactured anymore.

[Veech]

hmm.. thanks Roger. So in order to make this work I would have to find a PC soundcard that doesn't cripple the DTS output. Can you recommend one?

thanks..

[JGene]

Veech: Couldn't you use AC3Filter to soft-encode the raw 5.1 channels into DD5.1 and pass that over SPDIF to the Pioneer SE-DIR800C?

I have been using these headphones for the past three weeks and they are great! They definately need to be burned in though. Right out of the box they sound pretty harsh, but about the 20-30 hour mark they start to mellow out. I'm probably at the 35 hour mark and I have a way to go: I normally try for 100 hours of burn in.

[Veech]

hmmm... I'm not sure exactly how that would work, or even how to do that. I want to be able to monitor 5.1 mixes on the fly, and not have to do encoding or decoding or processing/re-sampling or add any steps that would compromise the sound. Is AC3 a lossy format? But i'll check it out...

thanks..

Veech

[JGene]

Yes, AC3 is definately a lossy format. I think the maximum bit-rate is 16-bit/48KHz per channel. DTS is 24/96, yes? If you have golden ears, then yes you'll probably hear a drop in audio quality but at least it would allow you to pipe all 5.1 audio on the fly via SPDIF. The other alternative is to use a motherboard that sports the nVIDIA nForce 2 chipset. That has the ability to do instantaneous DD5.1 to SPDIF (no Creative Labs card can do that, btw).

Otherwise I guess you'll have to stick to two channel for the moment - I don't know of a single pair of headphones that have the ability to take 5.1 analog inputs.

[Roger Dressler]

>>AC3 is definately a lossy format. I think the maximum bit-rate is 16-bit/48KHz per channel. DTS is 24/96, yes?<<

And no. The PC software DTS encoder Veech uses is undoubtedly 44.1 or 48 kHz sample rate. Right Veech? And Dolby Digital accepts 24 bit inputs, same as DTS.

[catapult]

I don't know of a single pair of headphones that have the ability to take 5.1 analog inputs. True, but relatively inexpensive receivers, like the HK 630, are starting to show up with the ability to use Dolby Headphone with the 5.1 analog inputs.

[Veech]

Hello all,

Well, I'm using SurCode as the DTS encoder, I believe it's 44.1k.

I got the headphones Friday and two comments: 1) they don't work like I'd hoped (i.e. only hearing front L & R of a 5.1 mix, but I expected problems to start due to Creative sound card) and 2) I do not care for the sound at all! Now that may be because I wasn't getting the full sound, including LFE, but these cans sound cold and harsh. Thank goodness the converter has an adapter for a secod headphones out, I can use my AKG's until these burn in.

Anyway, I'll take a shot and see if anyone is familiar with this software, it's the old Cool Edit Pro 2.1, now called Adobe Audition. They have a "view" option where you can mix and save a 5.1 surround session. What I want to do is monitor the mixing process using the Pioneer headphones.

I have ordered the M-Audio external USB surround sound card (the "Sonica Theater") which I believe will help with this process, as they Creative card cripples the digital output. The M-Audio doesn't.

The thing I need to figure out is what format is the AA 5.1 surround mix using? I'm getting the 5.1 output now using the analog outs of the Audigy sound card, but I want digital output and let the Pioneer decoder do it's thing.

Is anyone here familiar with the Adobe Audition program? Or can recommend a good forum?

Otherwise I may need to change my freakin' mobo? yiokes! But that's a good lead.. at least it's *possible*, eh?

thanks all..

[JGene]

Veech: Considering you do 5.1 mixing this may seem silly, you do know that the Creative Labs Audigy 1, 2, ZS series as well as virtually all other sound cards out on the market only output left and right channels over SPDIF? SPDIF is limited to two-channel audio when using an uncompressed stream of digital audio, such as PCM.

The nForce MCP on the nVIDIA nForce chipsets is unique because it can encode 5.1 sources of PCM audio to DD5.1 on the fly. It still does not get around the inherent 2.0 limitation of SPDIF, but it does allow you to get 5.1 through DD5.1 compression. (This is also one of the reasons why you will see the return of the MCP on the nForce4/CK8-04 Athlon64 chipset this fall. Multichannel digital audio over SPDIF will be one of the major selling points.)

The current implementation of SPDIF does not have the bandwidth to transport 5.1/7.1 at DVD-A and SACD audio rates (24bit/192KHz?) so that is why you are limited to analog output. This is also the reason why people are pushing for a high-bandwidth multichannel digital audio interface like IEEE1394 FireWire/i.Link or HDMI.

[whiskaz]

just came across this thread but... i purchased my 800s from audiocubes prior to their U.S. release... and these really can't be beat if you're craving ear candy and want it to be on the quiet side - I live in an apartment and these are perfect! Even when the wife goes to sleep... I can enjoy DD & DTS films without worry...

Probably THE best HT purchase I've ever made... even the wife doesn't mind wearing them now and again :) (I have 2 pairs.. I'm sure it looks silly to an outsider and it's not as sociable but... who cares, I'm trying to watch a movie anyway!)

[LDBecker]

My son swiped my Sony headphones when he went off to college earlier this month (not necessarily a bad thing as I was never really too happy with the Sonys), so it was time to go shopping for something new. Reading this and other threads on headphones, I decided on the Pioneers, which just came yesterday. I'm generally really pleased with the sound, comfort and performance. In fact, I'm more than pleased with the unit... A very nice 2nd option to my Energy Veritas speakers.

The one disappointment I have is that NOTHING comed through the headphones when I try to listen to DVD-Audio. I have the 6 analog cables going from y JVC FA-95 player going into my Pioneer Elite 59txi receiver, and an optical digital cable going from the 59txi to the 800c's digital input.

Is the only way to get DVD-audio on the headphones to go to a Pioneer DVD player that uses the i-Link connection? Would that then pass the hi-res signal to the headphones? ALL my analog outputs on my DVD player are in use going into the receiver.

I know something about the copy protection issues on DVD-audio and hope eventually to replace my older JVC DVD player with an i-Link equipped Pioneer Elite player, but not likely until the price drops a bit. Maybe next year's models...

Any ideas? And does anyone know if the i-Link would even pass the DVD-audio signals to the headphones?

Thanks,

Larry Becker

[HTCrazy]

On my Pioneer 1000's it doesn't have I-link only SPDIF input. I'm not sure if DVD-A supports digital output, but I doubt it. I know SACD doesn't.

[litster]

For me, I've had the 800C for about a week. It works fine in general. The things I don't like are:

White noise comig from the headphones when volumn is set high.
Not enough base coming from the headphone.

The headphones are OK for movies or gaming. I haven't listened to music with them. But the lack of base would be a problem. The directional sound is decent but separation for the surround channels is not as good as a set of real 5.1 speakers. But that's the compromise you get for emulating 6 speakers with just a pair of headphones.

I will try listening using a pair of better wired headphones plugged in the the 800C unit to see if the sound gets better.

[LDBecker]

HTCrazy,

Sorry for the misunderstanding... I wasn't saying that the 800c's had i-Link, but was wondering if a DVD player like the Pioneer Elite 47ai's i-Link, hooked into a Pioneer receiver's i-Link, would pass signal through the digital outputs and on to the 800c headphones. Make sense?

Larry Becker

[HTCrazy]

Litser - I was also concerned about the lack of bass when I got my 1000's (which are supposed to have less than the 800's). It seems they need break-in, because the bass I started getting after 3 weeks or so was perfect. Good low tight bass that didn't overwhelm the subtler details. I think the presentation now is darned close to perfect (to my tastes anyway).

LDBecker - My mistake.

[LDBecker]

HTCrazy, no problem. It's probably a dumb question, anyway. I just recall hearing that the i-Link was a way to put DVD-audio into the digital realm without violating copyrights, and I was hoping someone had found success with the 47ai (or the new 59AVi) and 59TXi receiver combination.

I Do believe that the bass is going to get better on these as they loosen up. I've seen it on other headphones before, and CERTAINLY found it to be true on my speakers.

Thanks for the response,

Larry

[HTCrazy]

LDBecker, I see what you're saying. Since multichannel works so well with Dolby Headphone, it sure WOULD be cool to also be able to do multichannel analog music.

Some day they've GOT to take SACD and DVD-A into the digital domain. Requiring 5 interconnects for each format just isn't practical and HAS to be hurting their adoption IMO.

The industry really has to go is full digital anyway where there's only 1 fiber cable from each component feeding into a processor. And in the digital domain, even wireless is a good option.

Ask any significant other, and the biggest problem with your stereo system is too many F**king wires!!

[LDBecker]

HTCrazy,

When I bought my original Pioneer Elite 49tx receiver, and now with my 59TXi, one of the main selling points for me was that you could really do bass management in the receiver on DVD-Audio. Sounds GREAT. It applies the parameters from the MCACC calibration to the DVD-Audio analog signal. This was a fairly unique feature (I think Denon does it now on their higher units).

With the 49TXi and 59TXi receivers, Pioneer lets you get rid of the 6 analog cables and just use the one i-Link firewire cable for all audio connections from their upper end DVD players (47ai and 59Avi). What I was hoping to learn was if these two i-link DVD players would pass the now fully digitized DVD-Audio/SACD signals on to the headphones.

I suspect, however, that there is still some copyright-protection blocking going on and it won't work. Still, hope springs eternal. Maybe with the next round of Pioneer DVD players, a less expensive one will come out with the i-Link -- $800-1200 is a little rich for me at this point.

Larry Becker

[catapult]

It's not copy protection, it's just incompatible audio formats. The headphones will accept a stereo PCM signal or a multichannel DD or DTS signal. When you play a multichannel DVD-A, the receiver is working internally with 6 channels of PCM, whether it comes in through i.Link or the analog inputs. There is no way to send that signal through the digital output. It would take 3 digital outputs and headphones with 3 digital inputs to pull it off.

However, you should be able to play the DD layer of the DVD-A.

[LDBecker]

catapult,

I thought I had read that the reason that DVD-Audio HAD to go through analog outputs on dvd players of that era was because of concerns over copy protection...

Anyway, I did find that on most DVD-audio discs I was able to access the DD tracks, or even the DTS 5.1 tracks on some. Of course, on my favorite, a Naxos recording of Vivaldi's Four Seasons, when I went to access the other formats, the message was to make the change on my DVD player (a JVC FA-95Gd). I don't see any way to do that, so I'll just listen to it with speakers and before 10 pm. Most DVD-audio discs seem to have it as a simple menu selection.

I've used the Pioneer 800C's a bit since I last posted and I'm becoming more and more impressed. I was watching "Goldeneye" the other night and the scene were "Bond, James Bond," is tooling aroung Moscow in a tank was just great through the headphones. The dialog is always where it's supposed to be, and everything is clear. Bass seems tight, but I think will deepen as the phones break in.

Larry Becker

[DaveFi]

Wanted to ressurrect this thread.

I've been using my Pioneers for 6mos now and they keep getting better and better!

I highly recommend these as a very nice present to any movie lover in your life.

[KaiZas]

I had the philips HD1500 set and I was very pleased with it. Especially the freedom of movement it provided throughout the entire house.

Too bad the headphones themselves were so fragile. They broke after a month. Plastic had gotten brittle and the slightest bit force disloged an entire earpiece.

I sent the unit back and got a refund.

Now I enjoy Dolby Headphones through TheaterTek using my Yamaha receiver and a pair of Senheisers. It's the HD-280 Pro and it's a LOT tougher. I can sit on them and everything. (And I'm not the smallest of persons :) )

[DaveFi]

That's too bad KaiZas. The Pioneer cans are very sturdy. I've dropped them a few times with no problems. The sound quality is very pleasing as well.

You might want to give them a shot. They go for almost $150 less around here than the Philips set anyways.

[KaiZas]

Well... I probably won't be heading down the dedicated DH road again. I came from PowerDVD's DH when I bought the HD1500 and I was hard pressed to hear the difference, surround sound wise. The DH algorithms used don't realy differ all that much from one product to the next, so it's all up to the cans to let the units stand out. So with that knowledge I headed down to HeadFi.org and had them recommend me a decent set of headphones for my goals. (My AKG's broke down on me too, hence the HD1500.)

So now it's back to the old setup, except now I use the vastly superior TheaterTek. And I can recommend software Dolby Headphones to anyone using a HTPC.

Next time I buy DH hardware, it'll be in my new A/V receiver. But the list of those is slim at the moment. (Too bad the 1014tx doesn't have it...)

[mikemav]

Ok, so I understand the Pioneer's transmit via IR. Does anyone know if it will work with a Xantech IR repeater system? I have an Xantech connecting block to carry IR from room to room & blast into components. Now, I know the idea of these headphones is wireless, so I would not want to stick a wired IR emitter onto the headphones, but I could easily add an IR "blaster" that sprays IR across the room. I wonder if the carrier frequency/ signal can be carried on the Xantech stuff? Reason I ask is that I would like to be able to use them both upstairs & downstairs. Wire the transmitter down by my main viewing room, and connect a blaster in the bedroom to transmit the IR up there, for when I bring the headphones upstairs.

[DaveFi]

I don't know how IR repeater systems work. The Pioneers just have a little emitter on the transmitter.

The Philips phones are RF, wouldn't it just be easier to go with those?

[islandsoon]

It has been a while since anyone has touched on these systems. I am looking to buy so am hoping someone can comment on their Pioneer or Philips system used for movies.

[islandsoon]

Okay, I couldn't wait. I just ordered the Pioneer SE-DIR800C from Etronics for cheap....
Anyone know if the LFE line out of the receiver (in my case an Onkyo TXSR800) stays hot when using the optical out from the receiver? When I use the headphone out from the receiver the LFE is deactivated. It staying hot would allow me to use the buttkicker system along with the Pioneer headphones!

[boykster]

islandsoon,

My Sony ES receiver keeps the LFE hot when using the optical out...you should be good to go!

Rich

[islandsoon]

Thanks!

[Erik Garci]

Originally posted by islandsoon
Anyone know if the LFE line out of the receiver (in my case an Onkyo TXSR800) stays hot when using the optical out from the receiver? When I use the headphone out from the receiver the LFE is deactivated. It staying hot would allow me to use the buttkicker system along with the Pioneer headphones!
On my Sony receiver, the LFE output stays hot for the ButtKicker, but sound is also produced by the speakers, including the subwoofer which also uses the LFE output. So I would be hearing the speakers at the same time that I am listening to the heaphones, which is not acceptable. One solution is to mute the receiver (so the LFE output is not hot, and the speakers are silent), disconnect the LFE output from the BK amp's input, and connect the Pioneer base's output to the BK amp's input. The Pioneer base's volume knob can be adjusted to achieve the proper level for the BK amp. Since the signal is stereo and the BK amp expects mono, a passive adapter can be used to convert from stereo to mono. Also, since the signal has full frequency range, a low pass filter can be inserted between the Pioneer base and the BK amp.

[islandsoon]

Keeping the SUB quite would be pretty easy, but if the speakers still have a voice, than I may well be on to the 'plan B you detail above.
Does your Sony kill all sound to the speakers (my Onkyo mutes everything else when the headphone jack is used) when you use just the headphone jack in the receiver?
Thanks for the input. The Pioneer will get here in a couple of days and I'm sure 5 minutes later I'll know what still runs once the OPTICAL OUT is used.
Tom

[Erik Garci]

Originally posted by islandsoon
Does your Sony kill all sound to the speakers (my Onkyo mutes everything else when the headphone jack is used) when you use just the headphone jack in the receiver?
I haven't tried. I suspect that if it kills the speakers, that it would also kill the SUB output. I'll find out.

[Erik Garci]

Originally posted by islandsoon
Does your Sony kill all sound to the speakers (my Onkyo mutes everything else when the headphone jack is used) when you use just the headphone jack in the receiver?
I tried it. The Sony does not kill all speakers when I use the headphone jack. However, there is a switch that lets me choose A+B, OFF, A, or B. Normally it is set to A. If I set it to OFF, then it kills all speakers and the SUB out, and the headphone jack still works.

[DaveFi]

As long as we're revisiting this thread- my SE-DIR800Cs are sounding better and better.

I highly recommend them as a good alternative for late night viewing. Great stuff. Well worth $300.

[islandsoon]

Thanks for checking Erik....

Now that you menition the speaker switch, I realize shutting off the speakers will not be a problem. Don't know why that simple solution didn't occur to me. Guess I needed to make it just as hard as possible.

DaveFI... As I just ordered the Pioneer, I'm pretty glad to hear you are still happy!

Regards,
Tom

[islandsoon]

Good New and Bad News...

The Good, the Pioneer arrived in perfect condition and seems to work just fine.
The Bad news is that my Onkyo doesn't have a shut off switch for the speakers. It simply kills the speakers when a headphone is plugged in.
Looks like plan B for me....

[DaveFi]

What? Just run digital output to the Pioneer transmitter and turn down the volume on your receiver when you want to use the headphones.

[bootz]

I've been enjoying the Pioneer SE-DIR800C Surround Headphones for several months now.

If I were to connect a DVD Audio / SACD player to the left / right analog outputs what kind of quality could I expect? Do any DVD players allow you to pass the LFE over the left / right analog outs?

5.1 DVD Audio / SACD would be ideal, but since that isn't possible I'm curious about a two channel option.

Thanks,

Adam

[Roger Dressler]

>>If I were to connect a DVD Audio / SACD player to the left / right analog outputs what kind of quality could I expect? Do any DVD players allow you to pass the LFE over the left / right analog outs?<<

If you select the 2-ch mix from a DVD-A or SACD disc, it will contain all the signals, including any LFE, as was intended by the mixing engineer.

[Foxbat121]

Just ordered SE-DIR800c last night. Can't wait to try it out. I have a simple question for those of you own this headphone: does it use regular AA Ni-Mh battery or proprietary battery? I have a lot of AA Ni-Mh batteries and couple quick chargers from my Digital Camera. Hope I can use these batteries and the charger for the headphone.

[litster]

Originally posted by Foxbat121
does it use regular AA Ni-Mh battery or proprietary battery?

It comes with 2 AA NiMH batteries and you can charge them on the base unit. So yes, you can use regular AA NiMH batteries. BTW, the headphones do sound better after you break it in.

[Foxbat121]

Originally posted by litster
It comes with 2 AA NiMH batteries and you can charge them on the base unit. So yes, you can use regular AA NiMH batteries. BTW, the headphones do sound better after you break it in.

Thanks. I read the charger on the base unit takes 12 hours to fully charge the battery which can only last 16 hours. I'm hoping my 2300mAH digital camera battery and 1-hour quick charger could be a better power solution for the headphone.

[Foxbat121]

Just received my headphone. I'm very pleased with capability and sound quality. I really liked the option of two digital audio inputs as I can connect both my HD cable STB and DVD player to it. The only thing disappoints me is that the digital audio input does not support 96KHz PCM which could somehow compensate for its lack of 5.1 analog input for DVD-A playback.

The headphone does clip bass if you turn the volume too high. I attribute this to the weak 2x1.2V battery power. BTW, the 1600mAH Ni-Mh batteries pioneer supplies are really useless. You can't really find such weak batteries in stores anymore. My 2300mAH digital camera batteries come really handy for the headphone.