review of DPR2005

[audionut101]

well my company had a rather large credit at frys, so I decided to try out the DPR2005. Since frys has a very liberal return policy, I purchased this unit.

I am feeding it entirely digital audio- cable tv box (coax), replay tv (optical) & dvd player (coax2). I am very impressed after listening for a few hours. The digital amps are really bringing out bass from my maggies. Soundstage is just as good or better than my seperates. The sound is very clean and articulate. I did adjust the amps for 4ohms and it made a world of difference from the default 8ohm setting- smoothed everything out.

I will put up a more detailed review after I really put it through its paces this weekend. If things keep up, my wife may finally be able to make me get rid of "those space heaters" and "very ugly black boxes".........

[daggerNC]

Great - looking forward to your more in depth review. Glad to see you have Maggies as they tend to like a lot of power to fully drive them - one of my concerns with these new digital amps. Please also evaluate some good 2-channel audio. One last request - can you post your system components?

Cheers,
dagger

[audionut101]

dagger,

in terms of my equipment, I have 2 seperate setups. I am constantly changing gear, but over the last 6 months it has been pretty stable. I currently have-

HT setup-
3- NHT L5 (center, L,R)
2- axiom qs8 (surrounds)
sherbourn 7210 amp
Lexicon MC-8 processor
genesis 928 sub (my all time favorite sub)
samsung HD931 dvd player
replay 5000
motorola 5100 (adelphia digital cable)
infocus 7200 projector

2 channel setup-
bryston 4bst amp
magnepan 1.6
adcom 750 preamp
meridian 508 cd player
genesis 928 subwoofer (can you tell I like this sub)

to be frank, I really didnt expect the 2005 to sound as good as it did. Now, I was pretty tired from a long day at work so it wasnt critical listening, and am currently moving all my equipment around due to the new projector that I got. I didnt have a change yet to do a real a/b comparison. My maggies aren't in their usual location either. But if I was listening in a demo room in an unfamiliar place with unfamilar equipment I know I would be quite shocked with the level of performance.

In terms of past receivers, I have had various friends bring over their pioneer 49txi & 47txi, denon 4802 & 5800, hk 525 & 7200 for comparisons with my equipment. Truth be told, I was never "satisified" enough with any of those receivers to keep them for my personal HT setup and never even considered those receivers for serious 2 channel listening.

Since I dont have a 7.1 setup, DPL2x doesnt apply for me. To do this receiver justice, I will only be feeding it digital inputs to bypass as much d/a conversion as possible. I do see that it has a digital output, but not sure what kind of copy protected signal comes out.

more later....

[daggerNC]

audionut - 2 nice setups! In my HT I currently have an HS20 PJ displaying on a 110" diag Firehawk screen. Marantz 18ex driving complete Def. Tech. surround system and an SVS 20-39 PC+ sub. My downstairs system is an old, Dolby Digital only Marantz preamp and Sunfire Cinema grand amp driving Gallo Micro's and NHT Super1's for surrounds. I want more flexibility than the THX only settings of the 18ex, so that is going downstairs and I need a new receiver upstairs that will equal or best the sound of the 18ex.

I'm also thinking of trying Maggies in the HT as I miss the sound of line-source drivers (I used to have Martin Logan's during my audiophile days), and want to make sure these new digital amps/receivers can drive them adequately.

Please update us with more in depth review as soon as you can.

Thanks,
dagger

[audionut101]

due to the long weekend and being swamped at work, I dont have much time to write up a very detailed review. I did get a chance to put the 2005 through it's paces with a few movies though- LOTR3 and Kill Bill V2.

let me first say that compared to a few other receivers I had in my setup, I always had to increase the gains on the amp due to my inefficient speakers and rather large room. This wasnt the case with the 2005- I actually had to lower the gains- does that mean anything really? Prob not- maybe a little extra headroom??

I did notice that this unit has an a/v lip sinc feature that I dont recall seeing before on a receiver, although most processors have it- even my old DC-1.

After calibration, I did notice the bass was much fuller than I was used to. Is this the "HK" sound that everyone is talking about? I think it is more than that- the bass was very tight and articulate. Maybe the digital amps are really all they are cracked up to be? I have never heard a receiver put out "real" bass. Now since most people will be using the standard 80hz crossover, it may not matter- but rest assured this receiver will power full range speakers and sound really, really nice at higher listening levels.

I keep going back to the large soundstage with this unit. I have always felt that at high levels, most receivers hit their limit and both soundstage and musicality drop off like a rock. That isnt the case with this unit. I kept wondering how such a small box was able to power my setup with such ease. In terms of comparison with my current setup, after a full weekend of listening, my wife may now get some shelf space back and we will prob see a lower electric bill to boot;)

From a HT standpoint, I really dont feel like I am making any compramises by swapping from the MC-8/sherbourn combo to the 2005. Having said that, I do think it is a sideways move- but not better or worse. I know I will lose some flexibility in terms of L7 adjustments, but I never really used it anyways. I guess I am now convinced that digital amps are the future and I am along for the ride!

I can say that the video switching worked fine. There wasnt any real compression in the HD signal. I run everything straight to the pj anyways, but for people who dont, the signal looks fine.

I havent noticed the HK dropout issue yet, so hopefully it is fixed in the newer units.

[Daryl L]

After calibration, I did notice the bass was much fuller than I was used to. Is this the "HK" sound that everyone is talking about?Yes it is. Thats that rich, warm sound us HK owners love so much. :D I've been using HK for about 10 years. Nice review by the way. I wanted to ask a favor. I know HK is famous for less than accurate owners manals. In the downloadable DPR2005/1005 manuals it states that:Dolby Pro Logic IIx is the latest extension of Dolby Pro Logic II technology that creates a discrete 6.1 and 7.1 sound field from matrix surround or two-channel stereo sourcesbut doesn't mention uing it on DD2.0/5.1 material. I know you said you only have a 5.1 speaker setup, but could you please temporarily switch the 2005 to 7.1 output and while a DD5.1 DVD is playing see if you can apply DPLIIx to DD5.1 please?

[audionut101]

I'll give it a try when I get home tonight. I know you can apply DPL2 to DD2.0 signals. DPL2x is set to off when you set surround back speakers to none.

Since I have had an avr-525 in my setup breifly, I think the bass that I am talking about is resulting from the digital amps. I have heard the warm HK sound, but I think it is just that this receiver's digital amps along with my digital inputs provide a cleaner signal and thus better bass output. Not necessarily more bass, just cleaner with more resolution.

[Daryl L]

Originally posted by audionut101
I'll give it a try when I get home tonight.Much appreciated.

I have heard the warm HK sound, but I think it is just that this receiver's digital amps along with my digital inputs provide a cleaner signal and thus better bass output. Not necessarily more bass, just cleaner with more resolution.That sounds like the D2Audio amps are pretty good.

[rtype]

Originally posted by audionut101
After calibration, I did notice the bass was much fuller than I was used to. Is this the "HK" sound that everyone is talking about?
Originally posted by Daryl L
Yes it is. Thats that rich, warm sound us HK owners love so much. :D I've been using HK for about 10 years.

Is this another way of saying that HK achieves a "house sound" by bumping the lower midrange/upper bass?

[audionut101]

I have been thinking about this all day. Although I havent a/b'd the 2005 with any real good amp, I know that the only other dedicated amps that sounded good/full in the bass department was pass labs, jeff rowland and california audio labs.

I am NOT putting the 2005 in the same class as those amps since there wasnt a fair a/b test. Out of all of the amps I ever listened to, those amps have always been my favorites- so you know my preferences. All I can say is that I get a similar warmth/fullness with the 2005 which for me is a really good thing.

I plan on doing some critical listening this weekend with a few musician/studio friends (this doesnt really make them any more qualified though- even if they think it does ). More to come......

[Vergiliusm]

Does anyone know what technology they are using(TI's Equibit, Class T, Class D, etc...)? I looked on their website and couldn't find anything.

[M Code]

Originally posted by Vergiliusm
Does anyone know what technology they are using(TI's Equibit, Class T, Class D, etc...)? I looked on their website and couldn't find anything.

The DPR 2005 amplifier is a proprietary design developed with D2Audio. The amplifier is incredible uses discrete MOS-FETs and own DSP/switcher. Many breakthrough features including a companion high wattage switching power supply plus selectable output filtering for different speaker impedances.. The amplifier has very high output power capability 120W x 7 into 8 Ohms and >200W x 7 into 4 Ohms.. ;)
All inside a 4" high chassis.

If you want more information on D2Audio here is a link..

www.d2audio.com

Check out their design group profiles/credentials, these guys are highly experienced in the category of PWM amplifiers.. I was told @ WCES 2004 by HK they worked very, very close with D2Audio for almost 18 months and judging by my personal experience of using a DPR 2005 for the last 2 weeks I continue to be amazed at its resolution, detail and non-existant noise floor. According to HK the digital path design uses NO conversion from input to output till the signal is sent to the loudspeaker... :rolleyes:

[M Code]

Originally posted by Daryl L
Yes it is. Thats that rich, warm sound us HK owners love so much. :D I've been using HK for about 10 years. Nice review by the way. I wanted to ask a favor. I know HK is famous for less than accurate owners manals. In the downloadable DPR2005/1005 manuals it states that:but doesn't mention uing it on DD2.0/5.1 material. I know you said you only have a 5.1 speaker setup, but could you please temporarily switch the 2005 to 7.1 output and while a DD5.1 DVD is playing see if you can apply DPLIIx to DD5.1 please?

YES..
DPL2X can be used with DD 5.1, DTS 5.1 and even a 5.1 analog input from an external DVD-A/SACD player for the back L/R surrounds of 7.1..
Another really kool feature is that HK has provided the control panel DPL2X so one can set the width, and panorama to one's personal liking..

[TauRus]

M COde, by any chance, do you know if DPR1005 and DPR2001 use the same technology as DPR2005 or not?

[audionut101]

M Code beat me to the punch on the DPL2x.

Taurus- there is no dpr2001. the previous generation dpr1001 used an entirely different technology even though the cosmetics were very similar. there is a true night and day difference between the 1001 to the 2005. Although the 1005 uses the same technology as the 2005, I have heard the a pre-production 1005 and I would say it was under powered in my setup.

[Vergiliusm]

Thanks for the link, M Code. Ever since I picked up a Panny digital receiver, I've been intrigued with digital amps. It looks like HK went a step further than Panasonic by making something not constrained by a low price point(even then the Panasonics are impressive for such inexpensive units)--exactly what I was looking for.

I was planning on getting an XR70 when it's released, but these HK's look like a better, less price-compromised option.

[gpshumway]

I just wish they'd put an i-link input on the thing. Analog inputs for DVD-A and SACD to a digital amplifier is sort of silly.

Maybe next year...

[Daryl L]

Originally posted by rtype
Is this another way of saying that HK achieves a "house sound" by bumping the lower midrange/upper bass? Nope. And if what audionut101 said (quoted below) is any sign, then I would definant say no.I have been thinking about this all day. Although I havent a/b'd the 2005 with any real good amp, I know that the only other dedicated amps that sounded good/full in the bass department was pass labs, jeff rowland and california audio labs.

M Code,YES..
DPL2X can be used with DD 5.1, DTS 5.1 and even a 5.1 analog input from an external DVD-A/SACD player for the back L/R surrounds of 7.1..
Another really kool feature is that HK has provided the control panel DPL2X so one can set the width, and panorama to one's personal liking..Thanks for the info. I did notice in the manual that thhey aded the Depth, Width and Panarama adjustments this time around for the DPL2/DPL2x Music modes, sweet(this was unfortunately absent in my AVR8000).

[M Code]

Originally posted by TauRus
M COde, by any chance, do you know if DPR1005 and DPR2001 use the same technology as DPR2005 or not?

The DPR 2001 was never built by HK, only the DPR1001. The DPR1001 used the Apogee PWM solution, but its major limitation was output power limited to 50W. Reasonable sounding but if more power was needed..
like bigger room, less efficient speakers or high SPLs levels than 50W was not enough power.

The DPR2005 (120W x 7) and DPR1005 (70W x 7) are proprietary discrete output designs developed with D2Audio. So they have significantly higher power capability, plus enhanced sonic refinements, also keep in mind that for PWM solutions this is a very new, advanced area of technologies so going forward into the future, additional new developments will evolve..

[M Code]

Originally posted by Vergiliusm
Thanks for the link, M Code. Ever since I picked up a Panny digital receiver, I've been intrigued with digital amps. It looks like HK went a step further than Panasonic by making something not constrained by a low price point(even then the Panasonics are impressive for such inexpensive units)--exactly what I was looking for.

I was planning on getting an XR70 when it's released, but these HK's look like a better, less price-compromised option.

The Panasonic models are getting some interesting attention..
But look carefully at the feature set/specifications for the HK DPR 2005 they are in an entirely different class. These features include:
1. High Output power capability 120W into 8 Ohms >200W into 4 Ohms, x 7
2. DSP modes, DPL2x, Dolby Headphone, Dolby Virtual Speaker, DTS 6.1 ES, 96/24, Logic 7
3. Zone II output
4. SACD/DVD-A Bass Manager
5. LCD Remote control plus learning
6. Quadruple XOver
7. Input titleing
8. A/V Sync Delay

[Vergiliusm]

I just wish they'd put an i-link input on the thing. Analog inputs for DVD-A and SACD to a digital amplifier is sort of silly

Yes I agree, however, some owners of higher-end receivers have reported no to little loss redigitizing for BM & TA with hi-rez on the multi-channel inputs, so it'll be interesting to see how transparent the analog-->PWM process is in these receivers. Or I wonder if it has to go through a traditional ADC first before being converted to PWM?

[audionut101]

M Code- have you played with the digital output at all? I dont think the manual stated whether the digital output was down converted or just passed straight through??- which would be nice for some custom applications.....

[M Code]

Originally posted by gpshumway
I just wish they'd put an i-link input on the thing. Analog inputs for DVD-A and SACD to a digital amplifier is sort of silly.

Maybe next year...

Not sure I would agree about iLink..
Though standards and marketing conditions are changing frequently..
I would think that HDMI would be a better choice as it is the connector for digital video and can also handle digital audio as well..

[M Code]

Originally posted by audionut101
M Code- have you played with the digital output at all? I dont think the manual stated whether the digital output was down converted or just passed straight through??- which would be nice for some custom applications.....

The Digital Output is not downconverted, it is cascaded with whatever digital audio bitstream is incoming. If DD In, then DD Out. If DTS In, then DTS Out. If PCM 96kHz In, then 96kHz Out...

[Daryl L]

M Code

The following quote is from Page 35 of the DPR2005 & DPR1005 manual.When a digital source is playing, you may not be able to select some of the analog surround modes such as Dolby Pro Logic II, Dolby Pro Logic IIx, Hall, Theater or Logic 7.And thats the reason I asked if DPLIIx could be applied to a DD5.1 source. As I said, HK is famous for less than accurate manuals. I knew Dolby made it possible for DPLIIx to be applied to DD/DTS5.1/6.1 material. I just wasn't sure if HK implemented it until you confirmed they did, thanks.

[audionut101]

Daryl- I think what that statement means is that when DD5.1 is playing, you can not select DPL2 over it. But if DD2.0 is playing then DPL2 can be overlayed.

[gpshumway]

Originally posted by Vergiliusm
Yes I agree, however, some owners of higher-end receivers have reported no to little loss redigitizing for BM & TA with hi-rez on the multi-channel inputs, so it'll be interesting to see how transparent the analog-->PWM process is in these receivers. Or I wonder if it has to go through a traditional ADC first before being converted to PWM?

$1800 is pretty spendy for a reciever but I can't imagine they have analog BM in there, so that would require analog to PCM conversion since BM cannot be performed on a PWM signal.

I'm sure an all digitial path is less important than we at the lunatic fringe think it is, but it's still silly to go from digital to analog, then back to digital. This means the quality of the DAC's and clock in the source is critical, as well as the ADC's in the reciever.

If you've got a high rez digital input (HDMI, I-Link, 3xS/Pdif, whatever) you can forget about the DAC's and ADC's and just get the cheapest DVD/A or SACD player with a digital output.

Boy, that really sounds like I'm complaining... I'm not, it's very encouraging to see high quality audio gear become more affordable and convienent.

[Vergiliusm]

I see that the 2005 has a direct bypass or redigitization for bass management on the multi-channel inputs. Can one of you guys try it both ways with a DVD-A or SACD player and let us know how it sounds?

Even in direct bypass it'll still have to be converted for the amp section(unless you run a seperate amp through the preouts, thus using its Cirrus Logic DAC's, but that kind of defeats the novelty of having the digital amps) and I'm still trying to get a handle how that'll work with these units.

If an analog signal comes into the multi-channel inputs in direct bypass, I assume it can be converted directly to PWM in the PWM processor and if it is redigitized, it goes through an A/D stage(converted to PCM), then to the DSP, and then to the PWM converter.

Does that sound right or does an analog signal always have to be converted to PCM before it can be converted to PWM?

[Jazz Khan]

____________________________________________________________
The Panasonic models are getting some interesting attention..
But look carefully at the feature set/specifications for the HK DPR 2005 they are in an entirely different class. These features include:
1. High Output power capability 120W into 8 Ohms >200W into 4 Ohms, x 7
2. DSP modes, DPL2x, Dolby Headphone, Dolby Virtual Speaker, DTS 6.1 ES, 96/24, Logic 7
3. Zone II output
4. SACD/DVD-A Bass Manager
5. LCD Remote control plus learning
6. Quadruple XOver
7. Input titleing
8. A/V Sync Delay
____________________________________________________________

They are in different Class, look at the price difference, $1599 to $231, I am wondering if they are worth of extra $1300??

[M Code]

Originally posted by Jazz Khan
____________________________________________________________
The Panasonic models are getting some interesting attention..
But look carefully at the feature set/specifications for the HK DPR 2005 they are in an entirely different class. These features include:
1. High Output power capability 120W into 8 Ohms >200W into 4 Ohms, x 7
2. DSP modes, DPL2x, Dolby Headphone, Dolby Virtual Speaker, DTS 6.1 ES, 96/24, Logic 7
3. Zone II output
4. SACD/DVD-A Bass Manager
5. LCD Remote control plus learning
6. Quadruple XOver
7. Input titleing
8. A/V Sync Delay
____________________________________________________________

They are in different Class, look at the price difference, $1599 to $231, I am wondering if they are worth of extra $1300??

No problem they are definitely in a different class...
Thats one reason one cannot purchase a Contach from a KIA dealer..
As long as the differences are widely known and explained each consumer can make his own choice if he needs the other differences..

[audionut101]

got to remember that the list price of $1500ish. All HK/denon/pioneer receivers have much room to negotiate after the supply starts to increase. Although I dont use these functions- HD video switching, programable remote, 8 channel inputs for SACD/dvd-audio it is all in the eye of the beholder. So for me- if HK didnt implement these features it could have been cheaper and I would have been even happier- but the next guy would be complaining that it didnt have the features he wanted.

I do know that the specs on the panasonic will not come close to what is advertised. I did remember reading a review somewhere that the panasonic was rated about 70wpc to one channel??? I wonder what it would rate at with all 7 channels playing?

While I do not have any measuring equipment, I know first hand that the HK unit does indeed power my maggies with authority- something I am still suprised at. I am sure the specs are close to advertised or maybe even a little higher.

Everything is realtive. I do not doubt that if you want the MOST bang for your buck- I would get the panasonic with some ascend speakers, bravo DVD player and a hsu subwoofer and you would have a very nice setup at a phenomally low price. The sky is the limit from there though.....

[Earz]

I will let you know just how much better the dpr 2005 is than the Pany in about a week.

I will also be comparing it to my Sim Audio 2 channel setup.

J&R Music has these for a great delivered price.



Greg

[Jazz Khan]

I will let you know just how much better the dpr 2005 is than the Pany in about a week.[QUOTE]

oh that would be great, cause someone compared xr45 to dpr1001, and he found XR45 better.

I will wait for your comparison.

[Tack]

Its kinda funny, HKs website shows 2005s original price of 1499 and the current price of 1599 :)

I think Id be very interested in these when the price drops off a little.

M Code....I have an avr 7000- What is the sound of the 2005 compared to the 7000? (assuming youve heard one)

I had an xr25 for about 3 days and couldnt return it fast enough. That type of sound im definetly not looking for.

[audionut101]

Tack- I used to have a avr-525 and the dpr2005 sounds SO much different. The soundstage is larger, signal is cleaner/noise floor is lower, overall more depth and articulate in sound.

jazz- I also listened to the old 1001 and I thought the sound was compressed and very thin. Nothing like the 2005.

[BigguyZ]

Would this be a good deal for $800-ish??

[Dalton]

If i knew where i could get it for $800 i would buy it RIGHT NOW. I haven't seen it for less than about $1250.

[M Code]

Originally posted by Tack
M Code....I have an avr 7000- What is the sound of the 2005 compared to the 7000? (assuming youve heard one)

I had an xr25 for about 3 days and couldnt return it fast enough. That type of sound im definetly not looking for.

YES..
I know what the AVR7000 sounds like..
I had 1 for a couple of years and sold it a while back to a friend. The DPR2005 has a very different sound character, I think alot has to do with its advanced design of digital path (no conversion from input till output to the speakers) and very, very quiet noise floor. The 2005 has incredible dynamic range and when driving my Infinity speakers it made them sound more open and transparent. Note that HK has provided a feature previously unavailable in digital amplifiers to my knowledge, that is in the OSD one can change the amplifier's output filtering to 4, 6 or 8 Ohms. Other digital amplifiers that we have auditioned to date have had their output filtering optimized for a single impedance usually 8 Ohms but now HK has provided a switchable output filter for different impedances.. To me a very clever idea..

Regarding the Panasonic XR series, they use the TI solution which was actually designed by the Danish company "Tocada" whose original engineers were from Harman. The TI solution can sound very good but it of much earlier origin and performance than the DPR2005..

My suggestion would be for any user who wants an AV receiver in a smaller, compact foot print to take a listen and closer look to the DPR2005. Also very awesome to have DSPL2x and Logic 7 in the same package one gets the best of both for 7.1....

[driggity]

Originally posted by M Code
Note that HK has provided a feature previously unavailable in digital amplifiers to my knowledge, that is in the OSD one can change the amplifier's output filtering to 4, 6 or 8 Ohms. Other digital amplifiers that we have auditioned to date have had their output filtering optimized for a single impedance usually 8 Ohms but now HK has provided a switchable output filter for different impedances.. To me a very clever idea..


Is the 4/6/8 ohm setting a global setting for all speakers or can you set it individually if for example the front speakers are 4 ohm and the rears are 8 ohm?

[BigguyZ]

So has anyone tried the reciever with Multi channel in w/ SACD or DVD-A?? It's between this reciever and a Pioneer 55txi for me, and the pioneer has i-Link.....

[audionut101]

the ohm setting is global for all speakers. It is recommended in the manual and I concur to set this to whatever your main speakers are. On very revealing speakers (maggies), the ohm setting makes a sizeable difference.

[Earz]

I received my 2005 yesterday and although I am not ready for comparison, I wanted to mention that the binding posts are total crap unless you use cheap zip chord.
These posts are just as cheap as the Pany posts :(

My second complaint is that the dpr 2005 will not except an upsampled signal of 96 or 192 from the digital out of my highly modified Philips 963sa:eek:

The Pany does except upsampled signals and displays it as such.

These two problems are strike one and two right off the bat and are both unacceptable for my setup.

I will give the 2005 some run in over the weekend and compare non-upsampled digital and dd/dts sonics to the little Pany that could :D
I will also try to find time to compare sa-cd to the Pany that could not.

My speakers are all Scan speak whith revelators and Goetz/Hovland xovers for 5.1 so they are VERY revealing direct monitors.

Greg

[Jane Spellman]

I am also interested in this to drive my Maggie 1.6QRs with powered sub in a 2 channel mode while eventually going to 5.1 for multichannel SACDs.

A few dumb questions. If I run digital coax out to keep things all digital does the unit accept 5.1 analog outputs to run SACD multichannel?

Looks like the unit bases around $1,280 on the net. The price should come down quickly but will never compare to the Panny RX70 for price or ability to power my Maggies.

[audionut101]

I hope the XR70 with the beefier power supply sounds a lot better than the XR50, because I tryed the XR50 (they have it at fry's as well) and IMHO it sounded very thin and got compressed at medium to high levels with my maggies.

For the price, I didnt expect it to be a krell killer, but with all of the hype on this forum I decided to try it out. Now in some setups- small room, less demanding 8 ohm satelite speakers, used for HT- not dedicated 2 channel listening, moderate listening levels, l could see this unit as the biggest bang for the buck product out there.

Wouldnt it be really nice if panasonic had a high end line and put a few more $$$ into the product to make it a true krell killer? With all of the economies of scale for panasonic, it could easily be done....just need to have someone higher up push it though with some passion......

Earz- let me know if you hear a difference with the ohm setting. Just curious how revealing your speakers are. I know with my maggies I could hear the difference- double blind tests proved it for me.

[Earz]

Jane, the best way to listen multi channel, or in my case, the preffered 2 channel sa-cd is through a receiver or pre/pro whith non digitized analog outs.
The 2005 does a little better job than the Pany 25/45 but it still does not compare to my old B&K receiver which had 2 channel all analog outs or my Parasound halo c2 which had multi channel non digitized analog outs.

I also get great results whith sa-cd on my Sim Audio i-5 Integrated.

Audionut, I can hear a gain in volume when I switch between 4-8 ohm setting so it is hard to say if one setting sounds better than the other.

There is no difference between 6-8 ohm setting whith my 88db monitors that only dip to around 5ohm.

[FlawlessOne]

audionut101,

I just purchased the four MMG W and MMG C to be shipped in August. This sounds like a great option for a '4 ohm' setup w/o getting into the whole high end market. Would you recommend any other receivers in this range?

[Vergiliusm]

Now in some setups- small room, less demanding 8 ohm satelite speakers, used for HT- not dedicated 2 channel listening, moderate listening levels, l could see this unit as the biggest bang for the buck product out there.

Even in larger rooms at higher levels the Panny's can perform well with certain speakers. The TI Equibit solution doesn't use any feedback, so matching speakers to the digital amps is going to be very important and much more critical than with most analog amps. The plain fact is that they aren't going to sound as good with some types of speakers and the Maggie's impedance profile is too much for them to handle at the necessary levels.

That's one big advantage I see with the HK. It'll have fewer problems with lower impedances and speakers where the impedance curve fluctuates, because of its sophisticated DSP controlled feedback and higher power design.

[catapult]

I would think that HDMI would be a better choice HDMI is unlikely to ever become an "audiophile" connection scheme but it should be fine for movie sound (just like SPDIF). Reasons:

Version 1 doesn't support any hi-rez formats.

The announced version 2 supports DVD-A but not SACD, nor is SACD mentioned for any future versions.

HDMI doesn't support iLink's best feature: jitter control. Nor, given it's architecture, can it ever support it. The audio part of HDMI is just a streaming format, like SPDIF (1980s digital technology,) with copy protection thrown in to keep us all honest.....Yawn.

Let's face it. If the HDMI folks gave a hoot about hi-rez audio, they would have supported it from version 1 and they wouldn't be coming out with these yearly version 2, 3, etc incompatible "upgrades." Reminds me of the way Bill Gates built Windows. ;)

Meanwhile, the 1394 (iLink) A&M protocol with rate control is a mature technology, superior in almost every way to SPDIF and HDMI, with fully debugged chips available right now from TI.

[Earz]

The verdict is in and I can hardly beleive it myself.

I beleive that I had a hard time being objective of a comparison of the lowly Panasonic sa-xr 45 vs Harmon Kardon dpr 2005.

I figured the 2005 would wipe the floor whith the 45 but all digital amps are not created equal.

After three days whith the 2005, it never got any better sounding than when new.
It sounds to me like an analog receiver whith a high distortion rating and nothing like what I have come to beleive a digital direct receiver to sound like.

The Pany is MUCH more resolving and more enjoyable to listen to whether dd/dts or cd sonics.
The dpr 2005 does hi rez better than the Pany but neither are good enough in that respect.
The Panys soundstage is more forward sounding than the dpr2005 but also has more inner detail whith everything sounding more defined.
The Pany has no hint of harshness or distortion when fed quality recordings.


The 2005 was used whith an Audience pc whith and whithout power conditionong.
The Pany 45 was used whith stock chord and power conditioning.

I do like the adjustability of the x over and a few other features of the dpr 2005, but what counts the most is sound quality.
The only thing I can say for the 2005's defense is that it could be somehow defective.

This has been an eye[ear] opening experience for me an I am searching out a Kenwood digital receiver for the next comparison.

I was going to give the Pany to my 11 year old but may consider having it modded after comparing to at least one more digital amped receiver.

This is not exactly how I thought this comparison would end up but I guess that is why we do these things.

Greg

[M Code]

Originally posted by Earz
The verdict is in and I can hardly beleive it myself.

I beleive that I had a hard time being objective of a comparison of the lowly Panasonic sa-xr 45 vs Harmon Kardon dpr 2005.

I figured the 2005 would wipe the floor whith the 45 but all digital amps are not created equal.

After three days whith the 2005, it never got any better sounding than when new.
It sounds to me like an analog receiver whith a high distortion rating and nothing like what I have come to beleive a digital direct receiver to sound like.

The Pany is MUCH more resolving and more enjoyable to listen to whether dd/dts or cd sonics.
The dpr 2005 does hi rez better than the Pany but neither are good enough in that respect.
The Panys soundstage is more forward sounding than the dpr2005 but also has more inner detail whith everything sounding more defined.
The Pany has no hint of harshness or distortion when fed quality recordings.


The 2005 was used whith an Audience pc whith and whithout power conditionong.
The Pany 45 was used whith stock chord and power conditioning.

I do like the adjustability of the x over and a few other features of the dpr 2005, but what counts the most is sound quality.
The only thing I can say for the 2005's defense is that it could be somehow defective.

This has been an eye[ear] opening experience for me an I am searching out a Kenwood digital receiver for the next comparison.

I was going to give the Pany to my 11 year old but may consider having it modded after comparing to at least one more digital amped receiver.

This is not exactly how I thought this comparison would end up but I guess that is why we do these things.

Greg

Very interesting..
Could you supply more details for your system setup like loudspeakers and room size..

[Vergiliusm]

The announced version 2 supports DVD-A but not SACD, nor is SACD mentioned for any future versions.

I wonder if that's why there has been a delay on the XR70 and DVD-97S, because they seemed to imply that DVD-A was going to be transmitted through HDMI betwen the units.

Greg,
I'm suprised as well. Assumimg the comparison was done on a level footing and there was nothing wrong with the HK, it's quite a shock actually, since as mentioned earlier, the 2005 should be in a different class than the Panny...at least on paper. It would be a shame if HK mucked up what looks like an excellent digital solution from D2Audio. Of course, since there is so much variation between Audionut's and your evaluation, I'm leaving open the possibilty that something is amiss somewhere.

It's that variation that still piques my curiosity and will lead me to get one ASAP to compare with my XR25. But, hey, if it is as you say, it's all the better for me, since I'll be able to save around a thousand bucks with the XR70.:)

[Earz]

M code, my speakers are all Scan speak monitors that go down to around 45hz and you can find a description a few posts back.
These speakers replaced my Thiel 3.6's which I would not drive whith any receiver.
They are just as revealing whithin 45hz up as the Thiels were.....just easier to power and deal whith.

The room is 20 x 14 x8 and I run the monitors full range whith the Pany + 2 powered subs.
I used a Rat Shack meter to adjust channel levels for both receivers for dts/dd sonic comparisons.

I run dedicated 20 amp lines and power conditioning for digital sources. but I did try both receivers whith power conditioning.

Whith the dpr 2005, I ran the monitors at 60/80hz x over.
The speakers only dip to around 4-5ohm and would be rated 88db @6- 8ohm.

Speakers were used whith Analysis Plus oval 9 on the front two channels and oval 12 on the center and surrounds whith all comparisons done in 2 or 5.1 channels.
Using the AP wire is a pain whith either receiver as they both have crap stock binding posts.
Ic's used were Acoustic Zen mc=2 for digital.

My source used was a Philips 963sa that has exstensive mods to its power supply,digital and analog sections as well as progressive board.
This player replaced a stock Denon 5900.

When I listen to stereo, I move my stand mounted center channel back around 6 ft and have no tv screen to get in the way as I use a dlp pj.
I use Sim Audio gear for 2 channel sa-cd and part time cd.

Hope this helps
Greg

[Earz]

Originally posted by Vergiliusm
I wonder if that's why there has been a delay on the XR70 and DVD-97S, because they seemed to imply that DVD-A was going to be transmitted through HDMI betwen the units.

Greg,
I'm suprised as well. Assumimg the comparison was done on a level footing and there was nothing wrong with the HK, it's quite a shock actually, since as mentioned earlier, the 2005 should be in a different class than the Panny...at least on paper. It would be a shame if HK mucked up what looks like an excellent digital solution from D2Audio. Of course, since there is so much variation between Audionut's and your evaluation, I'm leaving open the possibilty that something is amiss somewhere.

It's that variation that still piques my curiosity and will lead me to get one ASAP to compare with my XR25. But, hey, if it is as you say, it's all the better for me, since I'll be able to save around a thousand bucks with the XR70.:)

The comparison was more than fair as the 2005 ran for more than 3 days as the Pany sat unplugged.
The 2005 used a high quality aftermarket chord and the Pany used the cheap stock 2 prong chord.
I also noticed the dpr2005 ran rather hot for a digital amp whith a highly vented case for the first few days.

Today it seemed to be just warm on the top cover.

Audionut, gives the impression that the Pany he tried, could not drive his speakers so it is easy to figure why he had different results.
If somone else has great results whith the 2005 using moderatly easy to drive,high quality monitors, then I would be willing to try another as it very well could have defects.

The 45 has a beefier power supply than the 50, which is more like an xr25.
Comparing the 25 and 45 in my systym reveals that the 45 is smoother sounding in the highs whith all the positives of the 25.

Also, the Panys give an accurate sonic signature whith tight fast bass that some would call lean after years of listening to analog based gear.
This sound, along whith the smooth clean sounding highs has grown on me and I fully expected the 2005 to deliver more of the same.

When I first tried a Pany 45, I was using a Parasound halo c2 pre/pro and a Legacy [Coda] 250 X 5 amp for H/T.
The Pany does not have the soundstage depth,slam or headroom of the 8k combo, but it did have faster tighter bass along whith more details in the highs.
This was a tradeoff I was willing to make along whith buying some Sim audio gear to do justice to my hi rez music.

So far, whith nobody having access to an xr70, the xr10 and 45 are the best of the Panys but the 25 is also a bargain if you have speakers that have synergy whith it..

Greg

[audionut101]

That is why I ALEAYS tell people to demo stuff before purchase. Once you truly find what you "like" and what other posters "like", then it may be easier to read these forums since you will start to see their "biases".

Rooms/equipment/listening preferences/listening abilty/application are always different. I have said in the previous posts that in some applications, the panny is the most bang for the buck out there. In my setup the x50 didnt cut it. Maybe your definition of tight bass is my definition of weak bass??- no offense, just differences.....

now it looks like I need to get a hold of a x45 or x70 then huh?? Maybe I can save a few $$$ which my wife will like even more.

[Earz]

Audionut, it could be that none of the Panys will drive your maggies as they only offer around 70 watts into 8 ohms. and are not designed for low impedance loads.

You should do a search at www.audioasylum.com in the amp section as you are sure to find an opinion or two of the 45 driving maggies....or maybe not driving them.

You will also find a lot of people whith a variety of high end speakers that are less demanding saying things like.
"Fast tight bass" and "Ultra clean smooth highs" or " ect ect.

Compare what people have to say about the Panys and what speaker load they have and you will find a pattern that is easy to follow :)

As far as the 2005, maybe after talking to J@R music today, I will order a replacement just in case.

Greg

[lowly_tech1]

can any DPR 2005 owers say if the panel on the front of the receiver moves down, similar to the 630? Just wondering cause I have yet to see a picture on the internet of the unit with the door down if it does open.

thanks,

[M Code]

Originally posted by lowly_tech1
can any DPR 2005 owers say if the panel on the front of the receiver moves down, similar to the 630? Just wondering cause I have yet to see a picture on the internet of the unit with the door down if it does open.

thanks,

Yes..
The lower panel drops down as a door covering certain secondary functions.

[audionut101]

Earz- I am able to get a loaner x45 from a friend. He is actually making a 2 hour drive (just because of your post) so we can compare the two units side by side. If the x45 sounds good in my system, Im going to pre-order a x70. If it doesnt, can he send you his gas bill :D .........

[Earz]

Originally posted by audionut101
Earz- I am able to get a loaner x45 from a friend. He is actually making a 2 hour drive (just because of your post) so we can compare the two units side by side. If the x45 sounds good in my system, Im going to pre-order a x70. If it doesnt, can he send you his gas bill :D .........

Ahhhhhh....no:)

I am not sure if the 45 can power your Maggies either as all these Panys are designed for 6-8 ohms.
The xr25 can sound pretty decent whith my speakers whith plenty of power.

I listen to movies at -26 to -20 on the volume and music from - 24 to -16.

I feel very lucky that any of the Panys will sound better than some much more expensive gear whith my speakers.whith regards to clean sounding detail.

I decided to pre- order a JVC similar digital receiver to try for the next comparison.

One thing nice about the 45, is that your freind could probably sell it and get all his money back....maybe more :D

Greg

[PaulLeeMorphus]

I am currently using the Panasonic XR25 to drive a pair of Maggie MMG's. The sound is marvelous. I usually run the TV at -30 to -25 on the volume scale, movies at -25 to -20, and music at -25 to -17. For most source material -15 is unbearably loud. My room is about 23 feet square. I've just received a pair of MMG W's for the surrounds (not set up yet), and have a MMG C on order. I expect the Panny to handle the full 5.1 configuration, but it is a bit of an experiment.

[Jazz Khan]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I decided to pre- order a JVC similar digital receiver to try for the next comparison.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Earz,

What Model? I didnt know JVC has digital amp too

[prestidigital]

My room is about 23 feet square

...and six feet under? 23 square feet is about the size of a coffin. Now THAT is "near field" listening! Of course, even the compact panels might have some placement issues, but for once you might not mind the proverbial "head in a vice" imaging. Dead men tell no toe-in?

We kid because we care.

Actually, I am very curious about the drive capabilities of the XR45. I am considering trying one with some Totem Mites in a large-ish room. These are rated as fairly normal loads (87 dB/8 ohm) with conventional impedence curves -- a tad inefficient, but nothing beyond the pale. In practice, however, they seem to need some real juice to breathe properly. We're not talking about kilowatts here, but my two-channel experience with them suggests that it is better to err on the side of excess, particularly for dynamic material.

On paper, the XR45 doesn't seem like an ideal solution for this application -- whatever digital wizardry is going on here, there's only so much junk in that trunk. That said, people have heard good results with a range of different systems, including some (such as those graveyard MMGs, and with the junior XR25 at that) that would seem to be even more demanding loads. From what I recall from the earlier mega-threads on the subject, the people who did have worse results often seemed to be using lower-impedence speakers. That gives me some reason to hope that things might work out OK for my situation.

Let's face it -- at this price point, none of the alternatives are real powerhouses, and compromise (e.g., crossover frequency) is inevitable. Having dithered this long, I am tempted to wait for the XR70, which presumably will improve on the formula. Still, there's something to be said for the receiver in the hand, so if the XR45 would work...

I realize this is a bit off the original topic, but as long as the subject has already come up, what's your take on this?

[Jazz Khan]

If that helps you my speakers are 88db/8 ohm, and I have a medium to large room something like 20x24(not exact dimensions) I sit 10 fts away from front speakers, and -22 on XR50 gives me 75db (test tones) and total volume goes upto 0. but I only listen t0 -40 for music and -35 max for movies and that is pretty loud for me. by the way I have Infinity IL10.

[prestidigital]

Thanks for the input, JK. That's certainly good to hear.

Unfortunately, I think that in reality the Mites are closer to 4 Ohm than the nominal 8. The lower impedance is pretty much Totem's m.o. across their lines. Though they are the baby of the family, the Mites definitely have the house sound.

Totem (formerly a two-channel "audiophile" company) has added a variety of "home theatre" products. Interestingly, however, most but not all are still 4 Ohm. They make a point of touting the 8-Ohm models as being well-suited for A/V, but still market the lower-impedance models for the application (including in 5.1 bundles). Given that they now appear to be moving towards major-chain distribution, will they start making their products more receiver friendly, or is load less of a concern for modern amplifiers? Probably some of both, but that still leaves me in the gray area...

[Earz]

Originally posted by Jazz Khan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I decided to pre- order a JVC similar digital receiver to try for the next comparison.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Earz,

What Model? I didnt know JVC has digital amp too

JVC RX-F10 is the model number.

There is also Kenwood VRS -7100 and VRS-8100 digital recievers whith many more rumoured to be on the way from many manufactuers.

Greg

[audionut101]

Earz- I wont even bother to try it on the maggies. We will be testing with my 5 NHT L5s which are 6 ohm/86db. These speakers are somewhat inefficient and the tweeter is a tad "hot" for my liking. (had to go with these speakers due to WAF- go figure).

Room size is 18' x 30'- but the speakers are placed in a 16' x 16' configuration since the rest of the room is the kitchen.

[SoftwireEngineer]

Greg,
How would you compare your Xr45 with the 963SA+Sim AUdio I-5 ?
I-5 (or I-3) is one of the Int. Amps I was interested in buying (maybe still) till I got the Panny XR50. I was using a Audio Refinement Complete with a stock 963SA (but all have upgraded powercords from Chris VH).
Right now, the Panny has an Empirical Audio Magnum power cord. The963SA the cryoed Flavor 2 into a Monster Audio 2500 power conditioner. I really like the sound of this setup, very neutral and extended highs (compared to the midrangy ARC ). With upgraded power cords, you get better soundstage and sound has more ease. Without these, the Panny sounds like a recently greased piston , kinda tight.
BTW, who did the mods to the 963SA ? I am also running 192KHz/24bit into the Panny.

[PaulLeeMorphus]

Originally posted by prestidigital
...and six feet under? 23 square feet is about the size of a coffin.

.....

From what I recall from the earlier mega-threads on the subject, the people who did have worse results often seemed to be using lower-impedence speakers. That gives me some reason to hope that things might work out OK for my situation.

Let's face it -- at this price point, none of the alternatives are real powerhouses, and compromise (e.g., crossover frequency) is inevitable. Having dithered this long, I am tempted to wait for the XR70, which presumably will improve on the formula. Still, there's something to be said for the receiver in the hand, so if the XR45 would work...

I realize this is a bit off the original topic, but as long as the subject has already come up, what's your take on this?


Actually, the room is too "live" ! But it's not 23 square feet, it's 23 feet square (23 x 23 = 529 sq.ft.) I listen at about 10 feet.

With regard to the impedance issue, the Maggies maintain an impedance between 4 and 5 ohms across the frequency spectrum. Some speakers have dips to 2 ohms or even lower at certain frequencies, even though they have a nominal 4 ohm impedance. I don't know anything about the technical characteristics of the Totems, but if they have a relatively flat impedance response curve, then the XR45/XR70 might handle them.

[Earz]

Originally posted by SoftwireEngineer
Greg,
How would you compare your Xr45 with the 963SA+Sim AUdio I-5 ?
I-5 (or I-3) is one of the Int. Amps I was interested in buying (maybe still) till I got the Panny XR50. I was using a Audio Refinement Complete with a stock 963SA (but all have upgraded powercords from Chris VH).
Right now, the Panny has an Empirical Audio Magnum power cord. The963SA the cryoed Flavor 2 into a Monster Audio 2500 power conditioner. I really like the sound of this setup, very neutral and extended highs (compared to the midrangy ARC ). With upgraded power cords, you get better soundstage and sound has more ease. Without these, the Panny sounds like a recently greased piston , kinda tight.
BTW, who did the mods to the 963SA ? I am also running 192KHz/24bit into the Panny.

The Sim i-5 is used mostly for 2 chanel sa-cd and sometimes cd.

Comparing the two for redbook, the pany is more detailed sounding and the 1-5 has more texture and a deeper wider sounstage that is more laid back than the Pany.
There both great but different sounding and of course whith sa-cd, there is no comparison as the 1-5 is light years better than the 45.

The Pany seems like it has more juice than the i-5 but I attribute this to the Panys effeiciency.
The i-5 is being modded as we speak...or rather having the main ps caps and output caps swapped to Jensen/Blackgates.

I am the one who first discovered the BG vk 150/350v cap upgrade for the 963sa and it is an easy and whorthwhile mod all by itself.
Having said that, I had a 45 that I was modding whith better binding posts and enamel coated silver wire.
The wire swap went ok whith great results as the stock tin coated signal wire in the Pany is crap.
The internal wire change is so good that you would have to hear it for yourself and the results are immediate.
I then went crazy and changed the surround and center wire and ended up screwing up the receiver.

The Pany may be small and cheap, but modding it is not a diy project and should be done buy a pro imo.

So I quit doing all diy modding except the really easy stuff, and now send anything I want modded to Doug Jesse at Reference Audio Mods East.

He re-did the entire power supply Whith Jensen And Blackgate caps ect,changed all the analog, digital and progressive scan caps to Blackgates and also changed all the resistors/diodes ect.

Doug will mod what you want modded in stages as opposed to an all or nothing mod package.
He also has quick turn around of two weeks or less on the 963sa.

After listening to a few more digital receivers in home, I am going to have Doug modify whichever one sounds the best.

Although I don't have a lot of experience whith aftermarket or diy pc's on the 45,I did just make a digital cable two days ago out of enamel coated solid silver wire, Eichman silver bullets and two bybees.

I like the results but beleive that the large bybees I used "because they were just sitting in a parts box", are too big as the digital signal drops out quite often.
I will have to get my hands on some of the smaller bybees or the silver digital bybees and try that.

It makes perfect sense for the Pany or any other digital amped receiver whith switching power supplys to sound better whith a sheilded pc, power conditioning, bybees ect.

I can get cleaner sonics from the Pany by just moving it two shelves farther away from the 963sa and this is Not the case whith My analog gear.

Greg

[SoftwireEngineer]

Greg,
Thanks for the reply. I am also waiting to mod my 963SA and/or the Panasonic XR50. But like you, I also would like to wait for the other digital amp, especially the XR70.
The problem with the Panny is the lack of SACD playback. I am also waiting for alex/aplhifi to get more concrete on some Sony all-in-one mods.
How much difference do you think is there between 192/24 vs 44.1/16 on the Panny w/ the 963SA ?

[Earz]

I only liked the 192hz upsampling on very few recordings before the Pany 45, and now I leave it on full time.
It sounds more detailed...cleaner if you will, whith the upsampling on.
I went ahead an ordered a VH flavor 3 PC,adapter and a 1.5m digital cable from VH, to try on the Pany 45.
Whith the adapter, I can try my Audience and V/R Power 3 power chords also whith the 45.
If I end up whith the 45 for H/T, I will have the Jensen 4 pole ps cap swapped and the rest will be Rubycon za/zr series caps for the power supply and all channels.
There will also be new binding posts for all channels, an iec socket, all new internal wiring along whith Rubycon za/zr caps on the digital, as well as analog signal caps.


I have never heard anyone say a word on the top Sony digital receiver good or bad.
Maybe the high sticker and so so reveiws from the cheaper models equals very few sales.

Greg

[M Code]

After seeing the positive comments for the Panasonic digital receivers we decided to do a comparison with the XR45 versus the DPR 2005. Though the feature set of the XR 45 is significantly less the 2005 such as fewer digital inputs, no DPL 2x, no Logic 7, only 6 amplifiers compared to 7, the XR 45 is also much cheaper in $ as well.

Since I am running 4 Ohms Infinity loudspeakers rated @ 87dB sensitivity I wanted to check a couple of things like How well does the XR45 drive 4 Ohm loudspeakers? How loud will it play before audible distortion sets in? And basically just how good sonically does it really match up. Keep in mind my listening room is rather larger 26' x 21' and step-down to carpeting floor with high catherderal ceilings of 14'.

Well once I got the XR 45 connected I pulled out my trusty Eagles Hell Freezes Over DTS DVD, also I had my RatShack meter handy to check for SPL average levels. It only took 2 tracks (about 10 minutes) to be obvious that the XR45, that I could only get a max SPL of about 93dB before the XR45 heated up and shutdown. The top cover was very, very warm, funny thing is that as the XR45 was getting maxed out for volume it got very treblish and then there was a loud snap through my right front speaker then the XR45 shut down. I was very concerned that I blew out my Infinity loudspeaker, I let the XR45 cool down for about 30 minutes and turned it on again everything seem to play OK. Next I reconnected my DPR 2005 and played the same Eagles DVD again (same 2 tracks) and the audio output of the DPR 2005 was very, very loud and in fact I measured 103dB (about 10dB higher) on the RatShack meter higher than the XR45. Yet the 2005 still sounded very clean, tight bass and crisp highs it didn't have any of the harshness or treblish charteristic like the XR45.

Bottom line..
IMHO...
The XR45 is a very good value but it does not have the output power and sonic capability of the 2005. Kinda like comparing a Toyota MR2 against a Lexus SC430 both very good cars in their own right, but in reality in very different cars in terms of performance, comfort and cost. The XR45 should be a solid AVR when driving high sensitivity/impedance loudspeakers like a Klipsch but if the loudspeakers are low sensitivity/impedance one needs more power. Also if the listening room is larger, and the listener wants higher SPL levels more power is required. Also the 2005's user selectable impedance filter system works excellant and seems to help lower impedance loudspeakers simply sound and work better... I ran out of time tonite but during this week I will try to do more comparsions especially for the quality for each AVRs respective Dolby and DTS decoding sound quality...

[audionut101]

M Code- really weird. I just finished a pretty good review of the xr45 vs 2005 and came to a similar conclusion. I like your car analogy. I would say that the xr45 is kinda like a honda accord- a very good car, number one seller in the US, but it is no mercedes e class.

I also noticed that the xr45 couldnt really push my NHT L5s which are actually spec'd at 85db & 6ohms for any true HT listening. At it's price point, which is as low as it can get, I really wished it would have worked so then I could upgrade my brand new pj :) . Unfortunately for my room, at high volumes things started to sound really compressed. VERY similar to the x25. It really sounded like the dynamic range was missing. We listened to LOTR, Gladiator and a few other action titles.

We listened to the movies at -10 and used a RS meter to level everything. I didnt even try powering my maggies with the xr45 because I wasnt satisifed with it playing the NHTs. I think the biggest issue the xr45 is the lack of power to drive a more demanding setup. I doubt the xr70 will sound much different in my room.

While the xr45 didnt shut down, it was pretty hot. My 2005 runs pretty hot as well if that makes a difference.

My friend who listened to the 2005 was impressed. So much so that he will be putting his xr45 on ebay. There is a night and day difference between these two units. Just because they both use digital technology, please dont think that they sound "similar". If anyone wants it, I'll PM the auction number.

[dsmith901]

I don't understand why these digital amps are running to hot, since they are supposed to be super efficient. I wonder if the internal wiring is too small to handle high current? By comparison my Innersound ESL amp is much more powerful (300/600 watts @ 8/4 ohms) yet never gets more than barely warm to the touch.

[Earz]

No suprises in these comparisons as you guys seem to have rather large rooms to go whith your rather power hungry speakers.

I do want to mention that the dpr I tried ran hotter than the Pany for the first two days and just as hot after that.
The odd thing is the 2005 has a lot of air vents and the Pany has none.

I would like to hear from somone who can use a Pany receiver in there current setup before trying another dpr 2005, assuming something was wrong whith my 2005.
I have had a 2k dvd player that was buggy and defective, so anythings possible.

Audionut, tell your freind to put the 45 on A-gon and he will get more than his money back in less than 1 day.
There are many wanting a 45 for modification.

This is what I plan on doing also, I just dont know which digital receiver it will be yet that gets modded.

My analogy of cars is like this, I have an 00 Ford Lightning sitting in the garage that is modified and the Z06 vette, Dodge Viper, Supra TT, ect,ect are getting a good look at my tail lights every week at the strip.
Some are not getting a very close up look though at my 5000lb beast.


Everything is better when modified :)

Greg

[SoftwireEngineer]

M code and audionut, you two have provided valuable data points to establish that the XR45 is not powerful and/or will not be able to handle difficult loads. I have a feeling that it is not the efficiency, but some real dips in the impedence of the speaker which the Panny is finding it difficult to handle. I think it is mainly because of the lack of any feedback.
In my case, I am running my xr50, with a very efficient silverline sonatinas and for music -36db is too loud and for movies not anywhere below -26 or 28db on the display. Note, I am only running stereo.
Also, I have a very good after-market power cord on it. Actually, with this cord, it sounds more louder at the same particular volume setting.

I think I am with dsmith901 on suspecting that the internal wiring/pcb traces may not be able to withstand the current flowing through the circuits.

Earz/Greg, Flavor 3 is not going to cut it for the XR45. You probably need a flavor 2 or flavor 4 on it. I have one cryoed Flavor 3 and it is currently unused. I use a Flavor 2 (previously flavor 3) on the 963SA and the Empirical Audio Magnum on the XR50. Note, the receiver needs more current and which it draws in pulses, a fairly flat frequency response cord that can handle good amount of current is very important (other suggestions are zu cable, nordost, wireworld ).

Inspite of its shortcomings, I think the Panny receivers when matched with efficient speakers, could give a taste of high end audio (detail, bass, dynamics) at a very low price.

[M Code]

Originally posted by Earz
No suprises in these comparisons as you guys seem to have rather large rooms to go whith your rather power hungry speakers.

I do want to mention that the dpr I tried ran hotter than the Pany for the first two days and just as hot after that.
The odd thing is the 2005 has a lot of air vents and the Pany has none.



Since the 2005 is an HK product one can be fairly certain that it is
exceeding its published specifications by a significant margin. Also its 120W (x7) per channel with ALL channels driven means its power supply has to of a high current/high voltage design all in a 4" high package. So yes, it will need good ventilation as it does give off alot of heat if being pushed hard and/or driving 4 Ohm loudspeakers.


My analogy of cars is like this, I have an 00 Ford Lightning sitting in the garage that is modified and the Z06 vette, Dodge Viper, Supra TT, ect,ect are getting a good look at my tail lights every week at the strip.
Some are not getting a very close up look though at my 5000lb beast.


I think car analogies are kool..
Since we build race cars and hemi engines capable of 800HP and up to 2000HP in our spare time..
Also this weekend @ Pomona we will be running 2 cars..
Check out ESPN2..
Our super stock hemi roadrunner runs in the low 10s' ET @138 MPH and our brand new A/FD whose best breakin run was 6.87 ET @203 MPH Top Speed. So yes we know a little bit about fast cars..

[Earz]

Softwire Engineer, I guess I will be sending the flavor 3 back then and try my Audience,Virtual Reality or make my own.

M code, Nothing I like more than American Power....no matter the flavor.
My Lightning only does high 11's whith the stock baby Eaton blower so I can't run whith the door slammers....except in bracket but there are a 6-8 latest gen Lightnings running low to mid 10's that can drive cross country whith air conditioning afterwards while pulling there drag car.

I may add a K/B blower and join the 10 second club as the truck is already for it, but I also have an eye on an upgrade dlp pj :)


Greg

[M Code]

Originally posted by Earz
M code, Nothing I like more than American Power....no matter the flavor.
My Lightning only does high 11's whith the stock baby Eaton blower so I can't run whith the door slammers....except in bracket but there are a 6-8 latest gen Lightnings running low to mid 10's that can drive cross country whith air conditioning afterwards while pulling there drag car.

I may add a K/B blower and join the 10 second club as the truck is already for it, but I also have an eye on an upgrade dlp pj :)


Greg

Yeah the Lightning is one qwick machine...
In SoCal we run at LACR (desert) and Bakersfield, and often see a husband/wife team both running Lightnings one White and one Blue.. They run in the high 11s and still drive to the track..

Regarding the DPL pj, agreed just got the 50" Samsung it is very impressive compared to my lo res Toshiba 27"..

[audionut101]

DLP huh....I sold my 61" sammy DLP a few months ago and got the IF7200/ toshiba clone....looks like people here are migrating to similar technologies......

[rha61]

here are the specifications of the Panny

soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/1117200314244.pdf

[Jonathan Teller]

This thread has me VERY interested as I have been looking for a new receiver in the $1500 or under price range. That is as high as I can go, so seperates are not really an option.

I have been looking for the best sound to drive my Axiom speakers (M60Ti's, VP150, two pair QS8's). The Axioms are very efficient speakers and my room is not all that large (14 x 20 x 8 or so), so I don't think I need a huge amount of power. The VP150 and QS8's are both 6 ohm nominal, while the M60Ti's are 8 ohm nominal, but they all have high efficiency ratings of about 93 dB.

So of course, I was looking at units like the Denon 3805, Yamaha 2400 and Harman Kardon 630.

But then the DPR2005 and XR70 (45) caught my attention.

Basically, the features of any of these are enough for my needs (although having only 6 channels on the XR70 would mean wasting a speaker). In any case, the formats and inputs are sufficient on any of these that I wouldn't complain.

So all it comes down to is sound. I like a vibrant sound. But more importantly, I like detail. I like to be able to pick out very subtle sounds and seperate and discern individual voices and instruments in music.

This is why the digital amp receivers have caught my attention because their low noise floor seems to indicate they have the ability to produce these traits of detail and seperation.

Basically, I'd just like a recommendation as to what you might think will give me the type of sound I'm looking for.

I've heard the 3803 and 630 and prefered the 630's sound between the two with my speakers. Either was leagues better than my crappy Kenwood that I have now, but neither one gave me the clarity or seperation of seperates.

If the digital amps are able to get me closer to that seperates sound, then that is what I want. Audionut101's initial remarks had me about ready to plunk down the cash for a 2005, but then Earz review made me hesitate.

It seems clear that with low impedance or inefficient speakers, the 2005 is the way to go between the 2005 and XR45. What I find so odd is that some people can find the 2005 to perform so well (closer to seperates sound than other traditional receivers) while Earz finds the 2005's sound to be so poor.

I certainly hope Earz' first test turns out to be a faulty unit because this discrepancy doesn't seem to make sense.

So sorry for the long post and thank you all for the great information thus far!

Jon

[Earz]

Jon. I am still waiting on valid info from H/K.
There first response was that the 2005 does not upconvert to 192hz.

Now that they know that I am just asking is if the 2005 will pass threw a 192hz upsampled signal, I should get a definate answer back.
The tech who e mailed me back did not know but was interested in finding out, so we well see if my running that signal into the 2005 had any thing to do whith the higher noise floor it seemed to have after switching to a 96hz signal.

I have tried to find a 2005 locally, but so far can't find one.

You could always order one of each from J&R music, compare them, and send one back.

I will let you know when I get any info or if I find another 2005 locally for comparison.

There is always the chance that my 2005 was defective as price seems to mean nothing these days whith regards to bugs.... no matter the brand.

[DreamCatcher]

Well my 2005 arrived late yesterday:D But not late enough to not do the exchange... 2005 in.... 3805 out...
I was able to finish setup earlier today and do some semi-serious listening for a few hours.



And I've had a ton of receivers lately:
Denon 3805
5803
Pioneer Elite 49TXi
59TXi
55TXi
Panasonic XR45/XR50 - don't bother if you like your sound loud
all within the last year or so.
please don't ask me why, it's just what I do I guess.

Most recently the 3805, which replaced an Anthem ssp system, which replaced a Pioneer 59TXi/59AVi setup.

What do I like about it...
First the look of the unit. Small foot print, low profile
sleek silver and black look
large front panel display - can be viewed easily from 15' away.
or can be shut off completely

Setting this unit up is more like setting up a separate processor than a receiver. The only glaring omission is a test tone for setting sub level. I found this strange to say the least.
But with it's global or individual setting. The option to use different crossovers for each speaker group and apply different setting to each input. Ability to setup each input separately and rename. Speaker ohm optimizer. Surround select for each input. A/V sync delay adjustments, for each input. And so on... and so on.


Then there's Logic7
DPLIIx
Bass management for 7.1 inputs
DTS 96/24
Upsampling for DPLII, DPLIIx
HDCD decoding
and on... and on...


IT SOUNDS... GOOOOOOOOD
Clean, deep, powerful, surround modes come across with all the impact+, all the clear dialoge you'd want,
No matter what source I used (Denon 5900- for DVD, CD, SACD, DVDA - and HDDirecTV programing) the 2005 never faultered, never sounded harsh or even strained and I listened at over 100db on several occasions!

What don't I like:
The previous mentioned lack of subwoofer setup tone
The remote while OK, signal is on the weak side
and it didn't cost $300:D

That's it for now....
I'm going to do a lot more listening tomorrow and go through the manual tonite;)

Regards,

dc

[Earz]

Originally posted by DreamCatcher
Well my 2005 arrived late yesterday:D But not late enough to not do the exchange... 2005 in.... 3805 out...
I was able to finish setup earlier today and do some semi-serious listening for a few hours.
I was going to wait to post any impressions until I've had the 2005 in my system for at least a few days but what I've heard already has compelled me to post.

THIS IS THE BEST SOUNDING RECEIVER I'VE EVER HAD IN MY SYSTEM!!!
BAR NONE

And I've had a ton of receivers lately:
Denon 3805
5803
Pioneer Elite 49TXi
59TXi
55TXi
Panasonic XR45/XR50 - don't bother if you like your sound loud
all within the last year or so.
please don't ask me why, it's just what I do I guess.

Most recently the 3805, which replaced an Anthem ssp system, which replaced a Pioneer 59TXi/59AVi setup.

What do I like about it...
First the look of the unit. Small foot print, low profile
sleek silver and black look
large front panel display - can be viewed easily from 15' away.
or can be shut off completely

Setting this unit up is more like setting up a separate processor than a receiver. The only glaring omission is a test tone for setting sub level. I found this strange to say the least.
But with it's global or individual setting. The option to use different crossovers for each speaker group and apply different setting to each input. Ability to setup each input separately and rename. Speaker ohm optimizer. Surround select for each input. A/V sync delay adjustments, for each input. And so on... and so on.
I haven't even scratched the surface of what this unit can do.
AMAZING stuff for a receiver.

Then there's Logic7
DPLIIx
Bass management for 7.1 inputs
DTS 96/24
Upsampling for DPLII, DPLIIx
HDCD decoding
and on... and on...

Just crazy stuff for any component.... but for a receiver, WOW

I've saved the best for last:
IT SOUNDS... GOOOOOOOOD
Clean, deep, powerful, great soundstage, surround modes come across with all the impact+, all the clear dialoge you'd want, surround steering is amazing, placing all the effect correctly without sounding over done.
No matter what source I used (Denon 5900- for DVD, CD, SACD, DVDA - and DirecTV programing) the 2005 never faultered, never sounded harsh or even strained and I listened at over 100db on several occasions!

What don't I like:
The previous mentioned lack of subwoofer setup tone
The remote while OK, signal is on the weak side
and it didn't cost $300:D

That's it for now....
I'm going to do a lot more listening tomorrow and go through the manual tonite;)

Regards,

dc

I agree about the size of the 2005, it reminds me of my Parasound halo c2 pre/pro I used this past winter, whith just as many, if not more heat vents in the case.


Can I ask what size room you are using these receivers in and what ohm speaker ect?

[DreamCatcher]

Earz,

Speakers:
3 - Von Schweirt VR-4 jr (fronts & center)
4 - Von Schweirt TS-150s (sides & rears)
They are rated at 89db and 6 ohms
Listening room is appox. 18x14x8 with large opening to the kitchen and dining room on the right side.
The 2005 has already driven this setup to levels and beyond, that previously shut down the 3805 and the XR45/XR50, 55TXi and even shut down a PS Audio HCA-2 used to drive front channels in a 7.1 surround setup. So to say I'm impressed with the 2005, already, is putting it mildly. And I haven't been able to make the 2005 sound strained or harsh.
Another interesting thing I've noticed about the 2005's ultra quite background. Input a paused source, turn the volume of the 2005 up to
-0- and listen at the speaker, I mean right on top of the drivers. Nothing, no hiss, no hum, completely silent! Never had that happen before, usually you can hear some hiss or buzz or worse.
My son and I are going to spin his Metallica Black DVDA tomorrow, among others.
Anyway excellent sounding, looking and flexible unit.
"Nothing else matters"

Regards,

dc

[nevea2be]

I'm glad that you are pleased and impressed with this unit. It makes me very happy hearing your thoughts. :D



Keep us informed and good luck with it, enjoy :D

[audionut101]

dream catcher- A friend of mine was about to bring over his 3805. After reading your review, sounds like I will be spending more time on the golf course since I may not need to do the review. I actually thought that to be the case since I had an extensive demo of the 3803 in my setup a while ago and wasnt really impressed.

also, I listened to the old VR4 speakers and for its time was one of the best values out there IMHO. I havent heard the new VR4jrs, but I was told from a person who has a similar "ear" that they sound pretty nice. I would like to take a listen to Albert's VR11s though....I would think it would be one of the top speakers out there right now regardless of price.

[Earz]

Originally posted by DreamCatcher
Earz,

Speakers:
3 - Von Schweirt VR-4 jr (fronts & center)
4 - Von Schweirt TS-150s (sides & rears)
They are rated at 89db and 6 ohms
Listening room is appox. 18x14x8 with large opening to the kitchen and dining room on the right side.
The 2005 has already driven this setup to levels and beyond, that previously shut down the 3805 and the XR45/XR50, 55TXi and even shut down a PS Audio HCA-2 used to drive front channels in a 7.1 surround setup. So to say I'm impressed with the 2005, already, is putting it mildly. And I haven't been able to make the 2005 sound strained or harsh.
Another interesting thing I've noticed about the 2005's ultra quite background. Input a paused source, turn the volume of the 2005 up to
-0- and listen at the speaker, I mean right on top of the drivers. Nothing, no hiss, no hum, completely silent! Never had that happen before, usually you can hear some hiss or buzz or worse.
My son and I are going to spin his Metallica Black DVDA tomorrow, among others.
Anyway excellent sounding, looking and flexible unit.
"Nothing else matters"

Regards,

dc

My 2005 had zero noise also whith no signal and so does the 45 in the same size room as yours.
I have never had any gear shut down though.....ever.

My 2005 had more like a haze over the sound at any volume level as opposed to high volume distotion.
My speakers are rated about the same as yours except they go to 45hz and I run them full range.


I guess I should go ahead and try another 2005.

[Earz]

Originally posted by DreamCatcher
Earz,

Speakers:
3 - Von Schweirt VR-4 jr (fronts & center)
4 - Von Schweirt TS-150s (sides & rears)
They are rated at 89db and 6 ohms
Listening room is appox. 18x14x8 with large opening to the kitchen and dining room on the right side.
The 2005 has already driven this setup to levels and beyond, that previously shut down the 3805 and the XR45/XR50, 55TXi and even shut down a PS Audio HCA-2 used to drive front channels in a 7.1 surround setup. So to say I'm impressed with the 2005, already, is putting it mildly. And I haven't been able to make the 2005 sound strained or harsh.
Another interesting thing I've noticed about the 2005's ultra quite background. Input a paused source, turn the volume of the 2005 up to
-0- and listen at the speaker, I mean right on top of the drivers. Nothing, no hiss, no hum, completely silent! Never had that happen before, usually you can hear some hiss or buzz or worse.
My son and I are going to spin his Metallica Black DVDA tomorrow, among others.
Anyway excellent sounding, looking and flexible unit.
"Nothing else matters"

Regards,

dc

Double post deleted

[audionut101]

Earz- could it have something at all to due with your cables or just plain component matching? While I am NOT a believer in exotic cables, I do know that there are TRUE synergies when you match certain components with purposely voiced speakers (say a warm sounding amp, hot/bright speakers, clear preamp, etc.....)

I know many speaker lines that voice their models differently. Von Schweikert voices the Vr4jrs differently from the newer VR5s. Same can be said for the Onix Rocket and Onix Reference speakers.

[Jonathan Teller]

DreamCatcher, that is certainly a glowing recommendation! It's critiques like that that could cause a shortage or a price increase :p

But that is more or less what I wanted to hear. I've been eager to get my new receiver and with three very positive reviews to one negative, I'm starting to feel more comfortable with the idea of getting the 2005.

Earz, it certainly seems possible that you may have had a defective unit. I'm quite sure if other people had experienced a "haze" over ALL sound, that it would have been mentioned. It DOES indicate that quality control could be an issue though. But I think the sound you heard may have been an anomaly rather than what the unit is supposed to sound like.

Audionut101, I agree with you that the 3803 was not super impressive. Very solid performer to be sure, but not the equal of seperates. It's quite possible though that the 3805 has seen improvements to the sound. As I said earlier, I prefered the sound of the H/K630 to the 3803, but I've not heard a 3805 yet. If the 2005 can better the 630 (and it seems as though it can) then I'm pretty sure I've found my receiver :D

And Audionut101, please consider still having your friend over with his 3805. I - and I'm sure some others - would very much like to hear another take on this particular comparison, since the 3805 is such a popular unit. And besides, you'd rather play golf than play with home theater gear? C'mon, we all know that's just not true :D

Jon

[DreamCatcher]

also, I listened to the old VR4 speakers and for its time was one of the best values out there IMHO. I havent heard the new VR4jrs, but I was told from a person who has a similar "ear" that they sound pretty nice. I would like to take a listen to Albert's VR11s though....I would think it would be one of the top speakers out there right now regardless of price.
Audionut101,
I have fallen big time for Von Schweikert speakers and I don't want to get up.
I think I have some "issues" with my 2005:(
or more likely, I have issues with me:)
I can't get the unit to do some things, like go into "surround off, no dsp mode", +dsp wants to stay on, among other things. When I somehow did get into the desired mode, I had some cracking noise coming from the right speaker. Nothing loud just kind of ugly. I have to look a little deeper into the manual to see if and what I'm doing wrong.

Regards,

dc

[Earz]

Originally posted by audionut101
Earz- could it have something at all to due with your cables or just plain component matching? While I am NOT a believer in exotic cables, I do know that there are TRUE synergies when you match certain components with purposely voiced speakers (say a warm sounding amp, hot/bright speakers, clear preamp, etc.....)

I know many speaker lines that voice their models differently. Von Schweikert voices the Vr4jrs differently from the newer VR5s. Same can be said for the Onix Rocket and Onix Reference speakers.

I would bet that it would be more likely a defective unit or the 192hz upsampled signal I sent it, did something.
The reason I switched from Thiels to my current speakers is so I could use a big variety of gear, which so far has worked out great.

I don't want to get into cable discussion on this board ever again though :)


All I have to lose trying another 2005 is a few bucks for shipping, so I think I will give it another shot tommorow.

[Earz]

Originally posted by DreamCatcher
Audionut101,
I have fallen big time for Von Schweikert speakers and I don't want to get up.
I think I have some "issues" with my 2005:(
or more likely, I have issues with me:)
I can't get the unit to do some things, like go into "surround off, no dsp mode", +dsp wants to stay on, among other things. When I somehow did get into the desired mode, I had some cracking noise coming from the right speaker. Nothing loud just kind of ugly. I have to look a little deeper into the manual to see if and what I'm doing wrong.

Regards,

dc

I also had the occasional crackling noise in the right front channel, but had no problem getting the surround off :)
My crackling also changed to a nasty buzzing a few times after switching the ohm setting.

[audionut101]

Earz- I doubt you have a defective unit. I would not hope QA is that bad with Harman, but I do see a lot of refurbs on ebay. I wonder where other manufacturers send their refurb units?? I would just chalk it up to it not being the right piece for your equipment or your room or your listening tastes.

DreamCatcher- to get the surround off, just hit the "stereo" button a few times. It will cycle to 5 channel, 3 channel, DPL2, DPL...and finally to surround off.

No crackling in my right front speaker.

[SoftwireEngineer]

DreamCatcher,
That is a great/glowing review. This probably shows that digital technology has matured enough.
It looks like most of the positives you mention are there in XR50 as well - bass, dynamics, smooth highs and zero noise. I think only problem is underpowered and/or unable to driver certain loads. For me more than -36db for music is too loud, as I have efficient speakers. If the Panny can drive the speakers you have, then it is a bargain at this price. Also, I dont really care for so many channels, so I am using the Panny as a stereo integrated amp. I will be checking either the HarmonKardon, Sony or XR70 in the future. I dont think I can lose much in selling the Panny of.

[RKW2]

Originally posted by Earz
My speakers are rated about the same as yours except they go to 45hz and I run them full range.

This seems like asking for trouble. What does the 2005 do when trying to play a 30Hz signal? Won't the amp be driven very hard?

Try running them at small and see what happens. Could running certain speakers at "large" damage a digital amp?

Great topic!

[Earz]

Originally posted by RKW2
This seems like asking for trouble. What does the 2005 do when trying to play a 30Hz signal? Won't the amp be driven very hard?

Great topic!

The much smaller and less powerfull Pany 25 and 45 have no problem running full range at all whith the same speakers.

I used 60 and 80 hz x over setting whith the 2005.

[DreamCatcher]

DreamCatcher- to get the surround off, just hit the "stereo" button a few times. It will cycle to 5 channel, 3 channel, DPL2, DPL...and finally to surround off.
audionut101,
When I hit the stereo button, with a 2ch digital source applied, my unit cycles to 5 channel, 7 channel and surround off, but the "DSP" stays lit on the front panel. There is no 3 channel option. I guess this is normal?
I haven't heard the crackling noise since the one time.
This unit takes some experimenting to find out what it can and can not do.
The manual is not much help beyond the basics.


Earz, Were you driving a 6 speaker system with the XR45?
If so, this is pretty impressive as I couldn't get my XR45 to drive a 5 channel system to anything close to reference levels. Even driving just 2 speakers crossover to a sub my unit shut down repeatedly when approaching 100db.

Regards,

dc

[Earz]

Originally posted by DreamCatcher
audionut101,
When I hit the stereo button, with a 2ch digital source applied, my unit cycles to 5 channel, 7 channel and surround off, but the "DSP" stays lit on the front panel. There is no 3 channel option. I guess this is normal?
I haven't heard the crackling noise since the one time.
This unit takes some experimenting to find out what it can and can not do.
The manual is not much help beyond the basics.


Earz, Were you driving a 6 speaker system with the XR45?
If so, this is pretty impressive as I couldn't get my XR45 to drive a 5 channel system to anything close to reference levels. Even driving just 2 speakers crossover to a sub my unit shut down repeatedly when approaching 100db.

Regards,


Yes , I drive 5 of these exact same speakers in the large setting , and when called for, a 6th pos speaker for dts -es soundtracks.

The reason I have such good speakers on the surrounds is because I originally got them for mullti channel hi rez....which it turns out, I prefer two channel.

I don't use a meter level to monitor sound levels but Blade 2 for instance, is really loud at -25db on the 45.

All of this is whith the Pany plugged into a 12 amp power conditioner to boot.

My speakers are real similar to the Tyler reference monitors at www.tyleracoustics.com , only I have Scan Speak woofers instead of there Seas drivers and different internal hookup wire.

If your picturing some big monster speakers I am powering, there not.

I also have two powered subs running off the sub out


dc

[DreamCatcher]

A couple of items/limitations potential buyers of this unit should be aware of.
First Logic7 can't be applied to DD or DTS signals even 2/ch DD. This was kind of a dissappointment to me until I realized DPLIIx sounds better, at least in my setup/system, anyway.

Upsampling can only be applied to DPL, DPLII & DPLIIx processing.

HK should drop EzSet or improve it... it's pretty much useless.

The rest is all gooooood... so far.
My unit, after playing all day, only gets mildly warm.
Today my son and I really put it through some high SPL levels with the Mettalica Black DVD Audio disc. Levels well exceeded 100+db!
No strain, no shutdowns just clean and loud. I think my favorite sound characteristic of the HK2005 digital amps is how it controls the bass, these HK amps are very powerful and fast!

Regards

dc

[lowly_tech1]

"I also had the occasional crackling noise in the right front channel, but had no problem getting the surround off
My crackling also changed to a nasty buzzing a few times after switching the ohm setting."


I have had the 2005 for about one week now and I have been using it without a problem on 4 ohm magnepan MC1 for the main L,R. I noticed today when I turned on the unit I was getting a very bad buzzing, static noise from the right channel during CD play. I turned the unit off and switched left and right speakers and it still had static in the right channel. After trying different sorces, cables, etc. The problem turned out to be in relation to the ohm setting. changed the setting to 4 or 6 would cause the static, but 8ohm's would play fine. When the static was occuring I plugged in headphones and they sounded fine, however once removed the static was back in the right channel. If I switched to the FM tuner the static was gone. I don't know if it only was with the digital signal??? Anyway while the CD source was playing, I have it changed to 4 ohm's again and it is playing fine. I did re-connect the speakers before to make sure there was no short curcuits. Changeing the ohm settting while on another source didn't make the static go away, until it was changed on the current CD source. I turned off all equipment and tried it again a few minutes ago and I still have no strange noises as of yet. I am hopeing it was some strange isolated incident.

[lowly_tech1]

It seems if the unit is on standby it is fine. However if you actually kill the power with the pushbutton behind the door and power the unit back up there is a constant buzzing, static noise in the right channel until you go into the ohm's setting and go through the choices and select 4 ohm's again. My source is a cd player using optical, but I did try coax and it does the same thing. I tried an analog soruce for the CD and it does not create the same static on the right channel. Can anyone else confirm this or do you think I have a bad unit?

[Earz]

Originally posted by lowly_tech1
It seems if the unit is on standby it is fine. However if you actually kill the power with the pushbutton behind the door and power the unit back up there is a constant buzzing, static noise in the right channel until you go into the ohm's setting and go through the choices and select 4 ohm's again. My source is a cd player using optical, but I did try coax and it does the same thing. I tried an analog soruce for the CD and it does not create the same static on the right channel. Can anyone else confirm this or do you think I have a bad unit?

This is very similar to what was going on whith my dpr so it is definitly in the receiver and not cables, speakers or other components.

One of the times it happened, the buzzing, not the crackling, I feared for the drivers in my right speaker as I had the volume up a ways.

You are the third person to hear crackling and/or buzzing in the right speaker which tells me there is a very good chance that your/ my 2005 was/is defective.

I had turned the power off on the unit once whith the power button, but this should not cause noises.
I also unplugged the unit from the wall for 10 minutes which also did not help at all.

I never found a set pattern as to when the crackling or occasional buzzing would happen, other than I noticed it right after changing through the ohm settings.


There is NO way that this is a coincidence imo.

The haze I desribed, could be low level static noise also.

My dpr2005 made no buzzing or crackling noises while playing 2 chanel sa-cd.
It happened during cd playback via coaxial.

[DreamCatcher]

It happened during cd playback via coaxial.
WOW that's exactly the same situation when I heard my 2005 right front static noise. I'll check it out again tomorrow, see if I can duplicate the noise.
I see a pattern developing here. Maybe some of the other 2005 owners, MCode are you out there, can chime in?

Regards,

dc

[lowly_tech1]

When I got up today I tried the unit after it was on standby. The noise was not there. As soon as I turned the unit off and back on the right channel had static/buzzing. I have the unit in "surround off" mode and using optical and the unit does this consistantly if set in 4 ohm and you turn the main power off and back on.

[nevea2be]

Originally posted by lowly_tech1
When I got up today I tried the unit after it was on standby. The noise was not there. As soon as I turned the unit off and back on the right channel had static/buzzing. I have the unit in "surround off" mode and using optical and the unit does this consistantly if set in 4 ohm and you turn the main power off and back on.


Does it do it in 6 or 8 Ohm?

[Ben Stern]

I was seriously interested in one of the H/K digital receivers, but once again, H/K seems to have Q/C "issues". I was a big fan of their products in the 1970's, but for the past number of years, they have had continual problems. While their amps have always been top notch, that doesn't excuse their lack of Q/C. I'm going to pass on their DPR receivers for now and see who else releases a digital receiver.

[audionut101]

DreamCatcher- dont worry about the L7 in this unit. In all of the HK recievers, they dumbed it down so there are no adjustments like the Lexicon units. In all of the HK recievers, the bass enhance is turned on, the vocal enhance is turned on, cant adjust depth, height, etc. There are no adjustments at all. For some setups, the bass enhance will make everything sound bloated. Same can be said with the vocal enhance. I guess the Lexicon guys wont let HK have "all" of their neat features. The tweakability to L7 is the reason L7 is so good IMHO. Without it, L7 is just another marketing tool.

[lowly_tech1]

I know the problem doesn't exist if you have the ohms set at 8. When I get home today I will check if it does it in 6 ohms.

[DreamCatcher]

I know the problem doesn't exist if you have the ohms set at 8. When I get home today I will check if it does it in 6 ohms.
This is correct. I just verified it with my 2005.
Switching to 8 ohm solved the noise problem.
In 6 ohm, the noise (right speaker static) is only there when playing a source with a digital input applied to the 2005 and switching the 2005 to "surround off" mode.
Very strange. I think I'll contact HK and see if they're aware?

Regards,

dc

[DreamCatcher]

This is correct. I just verified it with my 2005.
Also switching back to 6 ohm after switching to 8 ohm seems to remedy the crackling noise... at least temporarly.
Does anybody have HK's customer service phone number?

Regards,

dc

[audionut101]

HK support- 1-516-682-6438

[nevea2be]

What would cause static in the right speaker in only the 6 and 4 Ohm setting?

[nevea2be]

Has anyone tried connecting this up with an amp? I was just wondering how the 2005 would work for the future by adding an amp?

[DreamCatcher]

Has anyone tried connecting this up with an amp? I was just wondering how the 2005 would work for the future by adding an amp?
It would work fine but....
Kind of defeats the purpose of what this unit is all about,
high-tech, powerful, sweet sounding digital amps!

dc

[DreamCatcher]

Maybe you HK2005 owners can help me out here?
Is there a way to get the 2005 to stay in a preferred surround mode?
For example:
With a digital input applied from my HD Sat receiver, when I channel browse
I can't get my 2005 to stay in DPLIIx. This happens particularly when the unit is first feed a stereo signal, than a DD 2.0 signal or vise versa.
The 2005 will switch to either L7 5ch or DPLII. I have the unit setup for 7.1 operation in the speaker setup menu, but I can't get it to consistently stay in DPLIIx or even L7 7ch.
Does anybody have ideas to what I might be doing wrong?

Regards,

dc

[Alan Gouger]

DreamCatcher

Im having the same trouble. If I change sources and come back to DVD I sometimes get something different.

I also do not like the fact if I select Dolby EX it never stays on that format if I change sources or change program material. I have to cycle through all the surround options to back to EX.

I also found if the digital source material is not in EX then the receiver turns off EX and you cannot turn it on. All other receivers that I have tried still allow you to use EX as a matrix from mono signals between the L/R surrounds.

[DreamCatcher]

I have to cycle through all the surround options to back to EX. Yes, and this can be very frustrating since it takes about 7 or more remote button pushes and even then sometimes it will skip right by DPLIIx and you have to cycle through yet again. :rolleyes:
For me at least, this is something I can't live with from my receiver or ssp:(

Regards,

dc

[Alan Gouger]

Reading all the hype on the Panasonic digitals convinced me to take a look at one of these. The price was right so the risk seams minimal to me and worth curing my interest.

I tried holding back my curiosity and wanted to wait for the Panasonic 70 but along came the Kenwood 7100 so I decided to grab it.

I have been using a Denon 4802 and was very pleased with its performance.

The Kenwood looked like a toy in comparison and looked like it fell short on build quality so I was expecting to be disappointed but I was shocked how well this little thing performed.
At first I had trouble with the 7100 shutting down at extreme volume levels but I discovered (helps to read the manual) I had the speaker selection incorrect in the set up manual. It was looking for the proprietary Kenwood speakers. Once I selected custom Ive been all set ever sense.

Comparing the 7100 to the 4802 I clearly heard cleaner mids and highs. The dynamic range was also impressive as if it had endless power on reserve. I associated this to the digital amplifier section. I was really impressed and now I am a believer digital is the future.

I then (one of the faults of reading the forum) read about the DPR2005 and quickly lost interest in the Kenwood thinking the HK with more power must be better yet so I ordered one and could not wait to give it a try.

Out of the box I was impressed with the build quality and thought this thing must rock. After setup and getting use to what the receiver offers I was truly very disappointed. I was expecting far more. I think had I not had another digital to compare it to I would have been very happy with the HK (I like it better than the Denon 4802) but compared to the 7100 it was lacking in clarity and dynamic range. It may be rated as having more power but it sounds like it is throttled or something. The effortless dynamic range Im hearing from the Kenwood is just not there on the 2005. The HK sounds like I went back to an analog amp. Mine also ran very hot. That I don’t understand. The Kenwood throws off no heat at all. I am wondering if the HK is some sort of hybrid but I am not technical in audio like many of you in this thread to know about this. For all I know the Kenwood could be a hybrid.

I have yet to hear the Panasonics but I will definitely give the Panasonic XR70 when it starts shipping.

The HK is a very well built receiver full of features not found on some of the better analog receivers and that are lacking completely on the other digitals.
At the end of the day my ears prefer the sound of the Kenwood to the HK. It actually sounds like it has more power and less distortion.

Id like to hear from others who have had a chance to compare different digitals and let us know your preferences and why.

Thanks!
I hope I did not offend any 2005 owners ( its a wonderfull receiver ) and hope I still have friends from the HK camp.
Just sharing what my ears are hearing in my system and what works for me:)

[SoftwireEngineer]

Alan, It is good to have feedback from somebody who has had more than one component. BTW, does the Kenwood have speaker B, multi-room output ? With my Panny XR50 I can biamp using the speaker B terminals which use the surround channel amps for the output.

[Earz]

Alan, very interesting that your description of the 2005 sounding analog matches mine.
I also thought my TI based Panny 45 sounded cleaner and more detailed than the 2005.

Looking at the specs for the TI based kenwood, it has 130 @6 ohm whith 10% distortion and the Panny is rated at only 100 @ 6ohm whith 0.3 distortion.

I was ordering a JVC rx-10 anyway, so I went ahead and ordered a 7100 also.
So this week I will have a 25,45,7100 and a rx-10 for comparison.
They also had the Sherwood digital receiver, but only sell it to walk ins...no online sales.

I also went and bought a B&W LCR 60 S3 for a rear center.
It is nowhere near the quality of my other speakers, but much better than what I was using.
BTW...
For the guys that had shutdown problems whith the 45, the lcr 60 is rated at 8 ohm, but dips as low as 3 ohm......so far no problem driving all six speakers in the large setting at ear bleeding levels.

[Ben_Tech]

I look forward to your review, Earz. I am curious about these units.

[DreamCatcher]

driving all six speakers in the large setting at ear bleeding levels.
Probably not a good idea:)

[Earz]

Originally posted by DreamCatcher
Probably not a good idea:)

What was that er.....I mean yes, that is why I left the room whith the 45 at -10 db while playing the Hauntings dts-es soundtrack whith the projector turned off, and returned when it was over:)

If I were actually watching the movie, I would have the volume at -24 to -20.

No shutdown and the cover was only warm afterward.
I had read many threads on the Pany units on a few different boards and have never heard of one shutting down untill this thread, so I just had to test it whith my medium effecientcy speakers.
I do remember the Pany 25 running a little on the hot side after being pushed though.

My hearing should still be in tact for the cheap digital wonders mini showdown :)

Like everyone else, I whish someone would make a digital direct receiver whith 200 @8 ohms x 6 or 7 that does not cost 5k like the top Sony es model, but until then, it seems it is the era of the cheap digital wonders or the dpr 2005 if the bugs are worked out.

[nevea2be]

Originally posted by Earz
Like everyone else, I whish someone would make a digital direct receiver whith 200 @8 ohms x 6 or 7 that does not cost 5k like the top Sony es model, but until then, it seems it is the era of the cheap digital wonders or the dpr 2005 if the bugs are worked out.



If you're willing to give up on the digital part then there is always the SunFire Ultimate Receiver? (http://www.sunfire.com/ultimatereceiver.htm)

[Alan Gouger]

Earz

I look forward to hearing your results and your preferred choice after comparing
more of the digitals.



nevea2be

Very nice receiver. After hearing the fast punch from one of these digitals I dont think I could ever return to an analog receiver.

Two years ago I had separates and told myself I could never be satisfied with an all in one and here we are. My last few receivers gave me everything I was hearing from my last 2 piece.

Now Ive spoiled myself by trying one these digitals and cant go back to analog.

I think Earz quote is dead on:
Like everyone else, I whish someone would make a digital direct receiver whith 200 @8 ohms x 6 or 7 that does not cost 5k like the top Sony es model, but until then, it seems it is the era of the cheap digital wonders or the dpr 2005 if the bugs are worked out.

[nevea2be]

That's cool Alan. Are you going to be sticking with your 2005? Or are you going to be shopping around still?

[Alan Gouger]

Im shopping. Im looking forward to hearing from Earz after he tries a few more digitals.
I had the Sunfire pre pro a few years ago and its a nice piece. Glad to see they added an all in one to their line. Looks tempting. Do you have one?

[temp101]

Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Reading all the hype on the Panasonic digitals convinced me to take a look at one of these. The price was right so the risk seams minimal to me and worth curing my interest.

I tried holding back my curiosity and wanted to wait for the Panasonic 70 but along came the Kenwood 7100 so I decided to grab it.

I have been using a Denon 4802 and was very pleased with its performance.
At the end of the day my ears prefer the sound of the Kenwood to the HK. It actually sounds like it has more power and less distortion.

Id like to hear from others who have had a chance to compare different digitals and let us know your preferences and why.

Thanks!

Alan,
I went out yesterday to search for the Kenwood 7100 and the Panasonic 50. Fry's had the 7100 for $499. Rip! I wanted to buy it but there was NO multi-channel input. Darn!

I ended up buying the Panny 50 and only tested the front left and right channels (so far). I comparing the analog inputs to the PCM (all digital) inputs.

Results: In a word, I was blown away with the PCM input on my high end system. TI's technical description below matches exactly what I hear. A true and major advance in sonic realism. NO negative feedback required. Wow!

I was NOT blown away with the analog input as there was some "smearing".

As a result, I too will not be buying any more large heavy $$$ receivers. (Or for the matter expensive Dvd players). The technology has improved dramatically!

My listening reveals that TI has succeeded in their goals as stated in a press release:
****
When combined with TI's programmable digital signal processors (DSPs) and other digital speaker components, customers will have an all-digital audio solution with performance that is unmatched by today's audio systems." Dr. Lu's enthusiasm is understandable, but he may not be familiar with the performance available from the high-end audio industry, especially the levels achieved by digital systems using conventional analog amplifiers such as Meridian's.

Toccata's amplifier is said to use "only digital technology, eliminating analog feedback and the need for analog signal processing or amplification at any stage." Lu said it "delivers clearer, crisper sound while allowing easy-to-use plug-and-play connections." His department's goal is to develop digital speaker technology that will "eventually bridge the gap between high-end and low-end audio systems."
****
Three years later TI and Panasonic have accomplished exactly this!

Burning question:
Will the Panasonic 70 HDMI connector pass multi-channel Dvd-audio digitally to the 70 receiver???

[Alan Gouger]

The next step will be a need for an inexpensive digital speaker that will connect to the receiver via a digital connection.

Meridian has such a system but its priced out of the world.

[SoftwireEngineer]

"I was NOT blown away with the analog input as there was some "smearing"."

There is a capacitor in the analog input path, which needs some breakin. Let the XR50 run in for atleast 2 or 3 weeks. There will be a noticeable change. With the digital input, you are not listening to the DAC/ICs in the path. I am using an analog rig and it sounds about right to me. Note, the 6 channel inputs use 96Khz/24bit ADCs, while the other analog inputs use 192Khz/24bit sampling. There is a little bit of performance difference I think. And I do not want to mention the use of aftermarket power cords here which is making me imagine a better sound :)

[Jazz Khan]

SoftwireEngineer, I tried biamping with A and B speakers, it does make a difference, mostly in soundstage, now sound has more 3D and its there feel, can you recommend me some tracks to check soundstage furthermore?

[SoftwireEngineer]

JazzKhan, it is good to hear some confirmation from another person. Especially since I have not done much comparisons with A and A+B. The increased 'soundstage' you report is in line with my observations as well. The sound takes on a much 'deeper' character. Instruments are separated very well.
I use a variety of music. But to hear these benefits I suggest, synthesizer driven music like Enya's or Loreena Mckennit's. The music should sound more like 'real' instruments now than something out of synthesizer keyboard. Also, Enya, has layers of sound on her recordings. Especially, some kind of 'sshh' sounds (artificial sibilance ?) added to the vocals. Now, these effects should be separate from the voice. Also, the reverb effects (some kind of echo) added to vocal tracks should be much clearer now.

[Jonathan Teller]

temp101, would you be willing to audition a Harman Kardon DPR2005 or DPR1005?

I'm very interested in the Harman units because of the extra features, inputs and 7 amp channels.

But there seems to be a growing consensus in the "DPR2005 review" thread that the Pansonic (or Kenwood for that matter) units provide superior sound - at least on higher efficiency, higher impedance speakers. I have Axiom speakers, so the power should certainly not be a problem.

Ultimately, the sound is more important to me than the extra features or inputs...although I would certainly prefer 7 channels instead of 6. But in any case. I'd love to hear another comparison with the Harman digital receivers.

There's still a chance that Earz' original DPR2005 test unit was not right somehow and I've learned not to listen to Alan after the fiasco in the MMG-W speaker thread.

So I hope you'll be willing to give a DPR unit a try. Not necessarily to buy, but even an in store trial would be nice, just for a comparison from another person.

Thank you very much!

Jon

[Earz]

There's still a chance that Earz' original DPR2005 test unit was not right somehow and I've learned not to listen to Alan after the fiasco in the MMG-W speaker thread.




I was already to order a second 2005 until lowly_tech 1 and DreamCatcher both mentioned the crackling and buzzing in there right front speakers.

I have to beleive now that my experience was not an isolated defect or bug, but rather a problem whith the 2005 that was discovered by the buying public instead of H/K QC.

I will be interested in hearing other 2005 purchasers opinions on sound quality and whether they have the crackling /buzzing in there right front as three of us have reported though.

[Jonathan Teller]

I just wish the XR70 had 7 channels instead of 6 and better bass management. Then I wouldn't even have to consider the DPR2005 because price alone would make the XR70 the obvious better buy.

Would you say that the XR70 could power two M2i or M3Ti speakers wired in series though? If so, that may work.

But so far, most people seem to have only run the Panasonic digitals in stereo. I've heard of problems with the older XR25 and XR45 regarding full surround playback...particularly noise or static in the rear center channel.

If I can power 2 surround back speakers with the one output on the XR70, then I will likely go with that. The QS8's and VP150 sound better crossed at 100 Hz anyway, so I'll make do with the bass management in the XR70 if that's the case.

Thanks.

Jon

[DBryant]

I have the XR50 used to power JBL speakers in a 7.1 config. People are wiring the surround back speakers in series and parallel. They seem to work fine either way. Plenty of power. My surround back speakers are N24's and you can adjust the trim to balance out the levels.

I have had good success so far and no static. 100 hz crossover has not been an issue either. I run my fronts as large and it sounds excellent.

[temp101]

Originally posted by Jonathan Teller
Ultimately, the sound is more important to me
Thank you very much!
Jon
There is no doubt that all digital amplifiers/receivers are the future. They are simply more accurate than analog amplifiers.
I had previously listened to a Sony digital ES receiver and was not impressed.
However Texas Instruments has the superior technology. (And Panasonic is the ideal company to bring us this technology cheaply.)

As for auditioning, I've gone back and forth between the XR50 and the my "old" Denon 3805 receiver twice now. There are both major and striking audible differences.

The XR50 provides very precise sound-stage and all imaginable detail. Within the sound-stage images are very defined.
The sound is very revealing, clean and demands your attention.
Because digital amplifiers are absolutely more accurate, they leave nothing obscured. Everything, both good and bad in the mix is revealed.

When using a fiber optic cable from the Dvd player source to the XR50, there was no apparent and usual loss.
This connection may even be preferable to a coaxial cable.
I think the XR50 sound is getting a little better as it (or me!) breaks in.

The 3805 is "softer" and more relaxing to listen to. Sound stage images are there but less precise. The sound is more rubber like (if that makes any sense!).
Being that the differences are so large, each of us has to decide what they can live with long term.
This is no easy decision as there is NO perfect solution.

Why?
Standards are much higher now as digital amplifiers (well for TI at least) are just more revealing.
This implies that whole recording chain needs to re-adjust and/or re-mix.This will take an estimated 10-20 years.

As an analogy take HDTV: Actresses are very concerned that the increased resolution will reveal facial imperfections that were obscured before.
Ditto for all digital amplifiers. Previous adjustments occurred when Cds replaced records.

Loud speakers will need to be refined or probably redefined.
So everyone needs to learn patience as this process will take years to evolve.

As for me, I will wait for the XR70 for one extremely important technical and no doubt audible reason:
We need to preserve all bits of source resolution and not loose it in the digital attenuator.
The XR70 will overcome this limitation by varying the gain of the amplifier.
Quote:
HQ Sound Mode
Unlike Panasonic conventional receivers, which use input volume to "squeeze" the audio signal before amplification,
HQ Sound Mode uses a system that varies the actual gain of the amplifier.
This helps provide clear reproduction of the re-mastered music signal for more subtle imaging when listening at regular volume levels.

[SoftwireEngineer]

temp101,
that was good piece of information - HQ Sound Mode on XR70.
Now I really have to watch out for the XR70 and buy it ASAP.
BTW, did you try biamping with A-B speaker terminals on the XR50 ? There is a noticeable improvement in the sound. Just connect the A and B speaker terminals together with whatever wire you have and select the A and B outputs on the front panel.

[Alan Gouger]

Im using the Kenwood as a hold me over until the XR70 ships.
The Kenwood sounds great but it falls short on features. The XR50 from what Ive read here has many things that are missing on the Kenwood.

I share everyone's enthusiasm about the XR70 and cant wait for it ship.

[temp101]

Originally posted by SoftwireEngineer
temp101,
that was good piece of information - HQ Sound Mode on XR70.
Now I really have to watch out for the XR70 and buy it ASAP.
BTW, did you try biamping with A-B speaker terminals on the XR50 ? There is a noticeable improvement in the sound. Just connect the A and B speaker terminals together with whatever wire you have and select the A and B outputs on the front panel.
My Infinity Intermezzo's have always been biamped with their own 850 watt bass amplifier. I feed the bass from the XR50's speaker/high level output.

Left the XR50 on all last night. The sound continues to improve in the sense that it is more listenable/enjoyable. Even digital amplifiers need a break-in. Stupid!

My XR50 has developed a problem. For coaxial inputs the display flashes. There is only a tiny bit of jerking sound. Anyone else with this problem?

[SoftwireEngineer]

temp101, even if you have in-built amplifiers for the woofers. Just try the A-B, you probably might notice a difference.
Re: coaxial inputs. The coax inputs seem sensitive to power fluctuations/spikes etc. Try connecting the source to a power conditioner. Also, make sure all electrical connections are really tight and secure. I had the coax dropping out, when I first connected the Panny, but it looks like in my enthusiasm to hear it I have not plugged the power cord in properly. Afterwards, I never had any problem. My source - Philips 963SA is connected to a Monster Cable HTS2500 power conditioner.

[spider_bill_2003]

Originally posted by audionut101
the ohm setting is global for all speakers. It is recommended in the manual and I concur to set this to whatever your main speakers are. On very revealing speakers (maggies), the ohm setting makes a sizeable difference.


What impedance would I set these speakers for?

They are called 8-ohm compatible!


Impedance plot below!


http://www.stereophile.com//loudspeakerreviews/252/index5.html


--Bill

[NickB]

I don't understand how you guys are actually bi-amping your mains. This unit does not have two additional amps for the B channels does it? If not then Panasonic must be playing with the voltage on the main two channels, lowering it due to the lower impedance the amp would see from having two speakers connected to one output.

I believe this would just effectively halve the volume for the two mains. If you try varying the OHM's setting in the setup menu this should have the same effect as trying to bi-amp with only one speaker.

To test this, try running the test tone in 5.1 mode with the front channels configured in the setup menu for "A+B" mode. If the front channels sound lower in volume then the center and rears do (assuming all speakers are identical), then it's probably best to just wire them conventionally. Another way to test would be to play a cd with a reference test tone (say 1000hz) and measure the voltage on each output. Do this once with the receiver configured for "A+B" mode in the setup menu, and then do this test once again with it configured for just "A". Comparing the results would show if Panasonic is actually increasing the mains drive capability or just limiting headroom.

I've yet to come across an "A+B" mode on a cheap receiver that actually provided the benefits that real bi-amping can provide (Or by using the "party" mode with a pair of stereo speakers).

[NickB]

Originally posted by spider_bill_2003
What impedance would I set these speakers for?

They are called 8-ohm compatible!


Impedance plot below!


http://www.stereophile.com//loudspeakerreviews/252/index5.html


--Bill

This is a good question, and one that I'm not quite sure about in relation to digital amps. It's unclear to me how they might handle your speakers as they have a broad area of 3~4ohm resistance in the lower bass region. The rest of the plot looks to be about 6ohm and above.

I would try listening both ways and see which you prefer. You might notice that with the receiver in 4ohm mode the bass will sound better, and with it set to 8ohm mode the top end would sound better. Again, this would only apply to your speakers based on the impedance graphs listed in your link.

Anyhow, just give it a go and let us now your results.

[Jazz Khan]

To test this, try running the test tone in 5.1 mode with the front channels configured in the setup menu for "A+B" mode.

Nick, when you use "A+B" you cannot run all other speakers, It maybe cause that receiver uses the souround amplifiers to run "B", and maybe that's why me and SoftwirEnginner are experiencing improvements. I might be wrong though.

[NickB]

Jazz,

I did not know this fact, thanks for pointing it out. If the surrounds can't be run in "A+B" mode, then it does sound like they are using those amps for this mode, and hence you so you should hear a difference (for the better). I might have to pick one of these things up and give it a try.

[SoftwireEngineer]

NickB,
The A-B speaker setting that Jazzkhan is referring to in available in the XR50. This receiver does not have any settings for speaker impedence. The HK DPR2005 is the one that has the settings for speaker impedence. It also has a 7 channel amplifier two of which can be used for another room output or for biwiring. In conclusion, you can biamp with the Panny only in stereo where as with the HK you can biamp in multichannel model if you are happy with 5.1 output (to me even 5 speakers is too much, I dont know how people manage to setup 7 speakers, must be a big room with custom installation, I guess).
I am sure you knew this NickB, but just wanted to make it clear for anybody reading this thread.

[NickB]

No, I actually did get a little bit lost and attributed some of the 2005's features to the XR50, so thanks for the clarification. I think I might get the XR70 when it finally comes out.

[Daryl L]

Darn, I have an AVR8000 and HK PA2000 amp in a 7.1 speaker setup and it sure gets hot in my small 13.5 x 13.5 x 8 room, they put out alot of heat. So I was planning on replacing it with a DPR-1005 to eliminate the heat, to have DPLIIx, to have Dolby Headphone available, to continue having a 7.1 setup and for the small footprint. Now you guys are saying the H/K's run hot. This is depressing. Now I must consider a Panny or Kenwood and drop to a 6.1 setup. Unfortunately the Panny does not mention having the Dolby Headphone feature.

I'm sure you all are familiar with the phrases:

"Bright detailed sound" usually used to discribe Denon, Onkyo, Integra and Yammy's(before the latest models).

"Rich, Warm sound" usually used to discribe Marantz, H/K and the latest Yammy's.

Before getting my H/K AVR8000 I tried an Integra DTR-7.2 for 3 months and it sounded more "Bright and detailed" then my old H/K AVR80MKII reciever and lacked that warm rich sound I was use to from H/K so I sold the Integra and got the AVR8000 and my sound was back.

Alan describes the Kenwood VRS-7100 as having that bright detailed sound and the DPR-2005 as not having it. Here is two quotes from D2Audio (http://www.d2audio.com/) Intelligent Sound D2Audio's amplifiers are the first digital amps to achieve top analog sound quality while operating at high powerD2Audio's powerful PWM amps are also highly customizable - a single product can deliver multiple personalities and intelligence features. In fact, manufacturers can add their brands distinct sound and unique features through the DSP capability built into the module's D2Audio's custom chip.This could explain why you guys feel the DPR-2005's have an analog sound. H/K probably had the digital amps adjusted to the distinct sound that their analog amps are famous for.

[Alan Gouger]

Daryl

I still have the DPR2005 sitting here. I was going to sell it cheap or return it.

I keep thinking I should give it another try but I do not feel like setting up my system all over again.

I do want to note that I am not saying the HK does not sound good, it sounds every bit as good or better as the Denon 4802 I had in my system but for a lot less money and more features. This makes the Hk the clear winner.

The Kenwood sounds more dynamic and powerful and cleaner than the HK to my ears but it is lacking on many features so theres no perfect solution. I do want to try the Panasonic 70 when it ships.

All in all I am excited about these new digitals and will keep an eye on the evolution of the technology. One thing for sure,I will never buy an analog receiver again.

[Daryl L]

I do want to note that I am not saying the HK does not sound goodI understood that. I saw were you said you prefered the digital H/K over the Denon 4802 but prefered the Kenwoods sound over the H/K. I just wanted to point out abut the D2Audio amps sound customization in assiciation with H/K's digital receivers sounding analog. I'm just worried about the H/K's heat producing. Although the Panny's and D2Audios website says digital amps produce less heat than analog amps.
From D2Audio: Digital amplification generates very little heat.
From VideoDirects (http://www.videodirect.com/panasonic/receivers/panasonic-sa-xr70.html) SA-XR70 description: This super-high efficiency not only saves energy and reduces heat generationI understand none say they produce no heat.

I'm afraid if I were to get the Kenwood I'd miss that rich warm sound of the H/K's that the Integra lacked. And since I'll be going in a nursing home in the near future the Dolby Headphone feature is a must (I'm definately gotta have my receiver :) which the SA-XR70's description doesn't mention Dolby Headphone). Plus I'm driving 4 Ohm M&K K-7's. I really can't afford a DPR-1005 but I was gonna bit the bullet and get it untill this heat situation. The Kenwood with dolby headphone is in a much more affordable price range. Delimas, delimas. :)

[Alan Gouger]

The Kenwood does have the Dolby Headphone feature but Ive yet to try it. Ill have to give it a try later.

[Daryl L]

I was just thinking. Do you guys who tried a DPR-2005 think most of the heat you say this receiver produces could be from the power supply?

[Earz]

Daryl, i think the heat, at least in my case started at the back left and proceeded to move to the left of the H/K logo on the top cover, before calming down to a very warm cover as opposed to hot.

I beleive this is more than likely a break in effect and the only reason I mentioned it was my strong suspicion that the dpr 2005 was a hybrid of some sort as opposed to a digital direct receiver.

I don't beleive the heat is a big problem in general.

I also noted that the JVC receiver I am trying , which is definitly a hybrid,also started out hot and after two days of 24/7, it is only warm unless pushed.

If you want to try a 2005, just make sure you can return it if you happen to get one that ,at times, has crackling and buzzing in your right front speaker.

[DreamCatcher]

Do you guys who tried a DPR-2005 think most of the heat you say this receiver produces could be from the power supply?
Probably yes, but I'm not positive and besides the DPR2005 doesn't produce a lot of heat, just enough to make the top panel warm to the touch, not hot.
None of these other, relatively speaking, cheap digital receivers can compete, I've tried a few (XR45,50) not the Kenwood, with the DPR2005 in my opinion.
Strap on some semi-demanding 7.1 speakers and let them rip. If your experince is anything like mine the DPR2005 will be the only one left standing :D
Now if HK could take care of a few issues I've had with the DPR2005 (mostly surround mode selection)

Regards,

dc

[Alex solomon]

Does anybody know the speaker connection on the xr70 are spring clips or
binding posts?

[Andrew_J_M]

I don't understand why a digital receiver has only four digital inputs - I think Sony dropped the ball on that one.

Andrew

[Daryl L]

Earz & DreamCatcher,

Thanks for the info on the DPR-2005. If I were to decide on the H/K it will be the 1005. I just can't afford a 2005 anymore. I guess any electronic componant get make the top panel warm. And possiblyIt certainly can't possibly produce heat even clost to the AVR8000. Heck, even a VCR gets warm even without playing a tape. I'll be running M&K K-7 4 Ohm speakers except the 2 back surround speakers are NHT SB-1 8 Ohm speakers ( I could wire them in parallel making it an all around 4 Ohm load on a receiver if I choose a Panny or Kenwood). :)

Alan Gouger,

May I pick your brain a bit on your opinion between the Denon, Kenwood VRS-7100 and H/K DPR-2005?

First off lets establish a point of opinion to base the questions and comarisons to about the differences in sound quality.

Most people as I mentioned in an earlier post refer to Denon, Onkyo, Integra, earlier Yamaha's as being on the Bright and Detailed end (focusing on the mid to upper frequency ranges). While most refer to H/K, Marantz, Pioneer, Kenwood, and the newest Yamaha's as being on the Warm and Rich side (focusing on the mid to lower frequency ranges). If these opinions make since to you.

Now, I've seemed to always own mid level receivers in the Warm and Rich category. Before 1990 I owned cheapo all-in-one units (cassette, 8-track, phonograph, FM/AM compact units). In 1990 I got my first mid-level receiver, a remanufactured Marantz 80 watts per/ch matrix surround receiver. Around 1992/3 I got a Pioneer VSX-601 (or the VSX-106, I forget) 100 watts per/ch DPL receiver (when DPL first came out). Around 1995/6 I got a H/K AVR80MKII THX DPL receiver and later added a Rocktron Circle Surround Decoder and then the Technic DD/DTS standalone decoder when I got a DVD player. Now this kind of explains why I am more comfortable with warm sounding systems.

After the Technic DD/DTS decoder messed up I decided to upgraded to a reciver with DD/DTS built-in. So I decided to try the Integra DTR-7.2. Although I loved the clean detailed sound of the Integra it seemed to lack the bass reproduction and punch I was use to which kinda bugged me every time I turned the Integra on. After 3 months I sold it and got the H/K AVR8000.

I ask these questions this way after my explaining my receiver history to kind of tailer your answers to my way of thinking. LOL I know this all seems crazy but please bare with me because it will help me tremendously because even though these units are inexpensive its just to much hassle asking others to unbox, hookup, unhook, box up and return equipment (paralized neck down and can't do this myself or I would). :) Now on to the comparison questions.

1. Do you consider the clean, detailed sound better on the kenwood or Denon?

2. Do you consider the clean, detailed sound better on the H/K or Denon (I already know you consider it better on the kenwood than the H/K)?

3. Do you consider the bass warm and with more punch better on the kenwood or Denon?

4. Do you consider the bass warm and with more punch better on the H/K or Denon?

5. Does the Kenwood have OSD (Kenwood has no downloadable manual for the 7100 available yet)?

6. Has the Kenwoods sound changed any now after some burn-in period for the better or worse? If so whats noticable?

7. What is the Ohms rating of your speakers?

8. Does the Kenwood have a feature similar to this one describing the Panny?
(HQ Sound Mode* Unlike Panasonic conventional receivers, which use input volume to "squeeze" the audio signal before amplification, HQ Sound Mode uses a system that varies the actual gain of the amplifier. This helps provide clear reproduction of the re-mastered music signal for more subtle imaging when listening at regular volume levels.) I know the H/K has a similar amp gain control or something like that.

I really appreciate any answers you can answer or any extra coments and I thank you very much. :)

[SoftwireEngineer]

Daryl,
Only problem is that the Panny might have trouble driving your M&K speakers. Otherwise, I would blindly suggest that you go with it.
Let me tell you this - in the last 10 or 12 years I have never bought a receiver. The Panny XR50 is the first receiver, even though I am only using the two channels, I can say it is a pretty terrific piece of engineering marvel by Panasonic. There is no hiss, no hum, no grain, no veil/flavor on the music. Neither warm nor cold. Smooth Jazz is smooth and rock rocks. Just what is there on the CD. Even the analog is a genuine facsimile of the input.
The digital receivers compared to the analog ones are a totally different ballgame altogether. The technology is basically the reverse of the way CDs are made (opposite of sampling). This is really high-fidelity.
All audiophiles (including myself) should wake up from the high-end snobbery and smell the digital coffee.
Your best bet is either the HK or the low priced JVC. You could also try the Kenwood or Panny, if you can return it easily.

[Daryl L]

SoftwireEngineer,

Thanks for the input. So far I'm looking at the H/K and Kenwood as my option untill I get confirmed info about the Panny sa-xr70 because Dolby Headphones is one of my requirements in the purchase. (The reason Dolby Heaphones is a requirement is due to the fact that I'll most likely be going into a nursing home with-in a year or so and I plan on having my TV, DVD player and hopefully a light weight (digital) receiver with dolby headphones to enjoy my dvd's and I know I can't take my huge heavy H/K AVR8000). :D

[frankd]

DreamCatcher,

Overall are you happy with your 2005? Has it earned a spot in the rack? You've mentioned channel browsing and surround mode selection issues. When you channel surf does the audio "work properly"? That's important to me.

I'm considering pairing it with some Ascend speaks so the Ohm/noisy right speaker issue shouldn't come into play.

?What to do?

THX,
Frank

[Ken Ross]

Originally posted by M Code

Well once I got the XR 45 connected I pulled out my trusty Eagles Hell Freezes Over DTS DVD, also I had my RatShack meter handy to check for SPL average levels. It only took 2 tracks (about 10 minutes) to be obvious that the XR45, that I could only get a max SPL of about 93dB before the XR45 heated up and shutdown. The top cover was very, very warm, funny thing is that as the XR45 was getting maxed out for volume it got very treblish and then there was a loud snap through my right front speaker then the XR45 shut down. I was very concerned that I blew out my Infinity loudspeaker, I let the XR45 cool down for about 30 minutes and turned it on again everything seem to play OK. Next I reconnected my DPR 2005 and played the same Eagles DVD again (same 2 tracks) and the audio output of the DPR 2005 was very, very loud and in fact I measured 103dB (about 10dB higher) on the RatShack meter higher than the XR45. Yet the 2005 still sounded very clean, tight bass and crisp highs it didn't have any of the harshness or treblish charteristic like the XR45.



Pretty much the same results I got with the Kenwood vs. the 2005. I tried the Kenwood since it seemed from the posters that the Kenwood had a bit sweeter sound than the Panny. In comparison to the 2005, the Kenwood simply sounded too thin to my ears (and my wife's). Once I reconnected the 2005, we had a restoration of the richer fuller sound we both enjoyed.

This has pretty much convinced me that all digital receivers are not created equal. YMMV.

[Dalton]

While i like the sound of the 2005, i just got my third one after 2 lemons and now this one seems to be a lemon too. It keeps randomly shutting down. I love the sound when it is working but they don't seem to work for long. The first one worked great for 2 weeks until it suddenly died. the second one was doa. Now the third one was ok for 2 days before it started to randomly shutdown for no apparent reason. I am getting a little frustrated with HK's QC. Now i am gonna have to call them yet again and complain. :(

[dsmith901]

Originally posted by Dalton
While i like the sound of the 2005, i just got my third one after 2 lemons and now this one seems to be a lemon too. It keeps randomly shutting down. I love the sound when it is working but they don't seem to work for long. The first one worked great for 2 weeks until it suddenly died. the second one was doa. Now the third one was ok for 2 days before it started to randomly shutdown for no apparent reason. I am getting a little frustrated with HK's QC. Now i am gonna have to call them yet again and complain. :(

It sounds as if this new amp technology has yet to mature, at least as far as higher power output capability. Despite their claims of efficiency, under real world loads they are running a lot hotter than anticipated, and excess heat destroys electronics as we all know. Which is why I plan to stay with the old analog amps for the time being.

[CanadianHT]

H/K 2005 digital receiver: MSRP: $ 1799.00
Panasonic XR50 digital receiver: MSRP: $ 224.00

Seems to me you ain't comparing apples to apples when saying their not all created the same. I thought that was pretty obvious. For the Panny to even be compared to something 8 times its price says a lot.

The Panny, for the price, is a great buy.

[DBryant]

You run any amp, digital or analog hotter than intended, what might you expect the result to be? Any amp can be made to shut down. I have purchased 3 of the Panny's and not had any difficulty pushing my JBL's well past reference level.

Canadian HT, Agreed!

[capecodorthopod]

dreamcatcher, MCode, and Ken Ross,
I share your opinions on the sound of the dpr 2005. It is amazing, however, the defaulting out of 7 channel (PLIIx or Logic 7) to 5 channel when changing channels (if one is a 2 channel source) is driving me insane. I cannot believe H/K would make a 7.1 reciever that, even when configured for 7.1 playback, defaults out of 7 channel modes at every chance it gets. I heard this is true of some of their analog recievers as well.
I also had the right speaker crackling when playing cd's in stereo via digital inputs. I called h/k and they stated the crackling would be remedied by a new unit but the default issue is inherent to the design of the unit and would be present on the new one.

Does this drive you nuts?

Have you figured a way to work around this?

H/K rep stated there is no plan for firmware upgrade or other fix and the upcoming models will likely have the same default issue.

I love the sound and features of this thing and do not want to give it up but I don't know if I can tolerate hitting the dolby button 7 times to get back to PLIIx whenever I change the channel.

[Ken Ross]

Capecodorthopod, I have a 5.1 setup so I haven't experienced your frustration. It is strange that the default for a 7.1 setup would be 5 channels. I also find it strange that the default for the surround sound on PCM is Logic 7 regardless of which mode you used last. On the other hand, the quality of sound this thing produces outweighs (for me) it's idiosyncrasies. I love it. Just as an aside, is it possible there is a discreet command for the 7.1 playback that would enable you (with the proper remote) to press 1 button?

[Earz]

Originally posted by CanadianHT
H/K 2005 digital receiver: MSRP: $ 1799.00
Panasonic XR50 digital receiver: MSRP: $ 224.00

Seems to me you ain't comparing apples to apples when saying their not all created the same. I thought that was pretty obvious. For the Panny to even be compared to something 8 times its price says a lot.

The Panny, for the price, is a great buy.

If you have revealing speakers that can be powered by the Pany, there is no contest, the Pany has FAR better resolution than thje DPR2005.

Is it fair to compare, not for the overpriced bug plagued DPR2005 its not :D

[Ken Ross]

Originally posted by Earz
If you have revealing speakers that can be powered by the Pany, there is no contest, the Pany has FAR better resolution than thje DPR2005.

Is it fair to compare, not for the overpriced bug plagued DPR2005 its not :D

I and others would disagree. I personally found the sound quality far superior on the DPR 2005 (relative to the Kenwood which others have found better than the Panny), have had no bugs and certainly for its power, features and sound quality do not find it overpriced. Of course you are entitled to your own sweeping opinions. I would suggest others listen for themselves since this is predicated on individual taste.

[audionut101]

Originally posted by Earz
If you have revealing speakers that can be powered by the Pany, there is no contest, the Pany has FAR better resolution than thje DPR2005.

Is it fair to compare, not for the overpriced bug plagued DPR2005 its not :D

While I have heard that there are bugs in some of the units, mine is rock solid. Earz- I am not sure how/what you define as revealing speakers- but I have tried the 2005 on my maggies, nht's and the sound is much improved over the panny. I have always thought that maggies are pretty revealing, but that IMHO. A couple of my friends have since purchased the 2005 and they are using it to power Revels, Martin Logans and some vandersteens. So I personally know of 4 owners of the 2005 (including myself)- not one of the units has caused any type of problem. Having said that, I have seen a few b-stocks on ebay. :confused:

In terms of bang for the buck- $200 vs $1000....if you CANT tell the difference between the two units (your gear doesnt reveal any differences), want to spend the difference ($800) on other components, dont need any of the HK features (video switching, remote, etc), then GET the PANNY. But if you are after overall sonics and soundstage, the 2005 was MUCH improved at moderate to higher listening levels.

I also thought I saw a post where the Onix guys are implementing the D2Audio digital technology for their new ribbon speaker killer- take that for whatever it is worth.

[Earz]

Originally posted by Ken Ross
I and others would disagree. I personally found the sound quality far superior on the DPR 2005 (relative to the Kenwood which others have found better than the Panny), have had no bugs and certainly for its power, features and sound quality do not find it overpriced. Of course you are entitled to your own sweeping opinions. I would suggest others listen for themselves since this is predicated on individual taste.

Were have you seen were others have preferred the 7100 to a Pany 45:confused:

Speaking as somone who has tried 5 digital receivers with very revealing ...and fairly easy to drive speaker loads, I can tell you that the Pany 45 is far more revealing than the 2005.
Some like colored sound , and thats what you get whith the 2005.

Some like accurate, precise and revealing sonics, which is what the 45 offers.
So if your tastes lean towards colored, which they obviuosly do, then fine, but the 45 is far more revealing than the hybrid 2005.

I was one of the first few to report on the 2005, and also the first to experience the crackling and loud buzzing from my right front channel.

Take Mcode who sells these out of the equation, and 3-4 had this same problem if you read this thread from the beggining.

You need to listen to things for yourself, instead of relying on others opinions btw.
I did my homework, and the only receiver sent back was the defective 2005.

I also did blind testing of the Pany45, JVCrx-10 and Kenwood 7100 and the Pany 45 came out on top whith all participants in both stereo and SS.

So I don't have a sweeping opinion, just lots of experience and actual comparisons.

[Earz]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by audionut101
[B]While I have heard that there are bugs in some of the units, mine is rock solid. Earz- I am not sure how/what you define as revealing speakers- but I have tried the 2005 on my maggies, nht's and the sound is much improved over the panny. I have always thought that maggies are pretty revealing, but that IMHO. A couple of my friends have since purchased the 2005 and they are using it to power Revels, Martin Logans and some vandersteens. So I personally know of 4 owners of the 2005 (including myself)- not one of the units has caused any type of problem. Having said that, I have seen a few b-stocks on ebay. :confused:

In terms of bang for the buck- $200 vs $1000....if you CANT tell the difference between the two units (your gear doesnt reveal any differences), want to spend the difference ($800) on other components

You can go back to the beggining of this thread to find what revealing speakers I use.
I own two Panny 45's already after trying 4 other digital receivers and use them in a 2-6 channel bi amped set up....thats 200 rms @6ohm x 6.

These are currently being modified at a cost greater than what I paid for the 2005(better binding posts, internal wiring, caps ect) so money has nothing to do whith it.

My prior set up was an 8k pre/pro amp combo, and I like the two bi amped Pannys better stock.
My source is soon to be a modded Denon 3910, which will replace my modded Philips 963sa, which replaced my Modwright signature 9000es....in other words, its not my source and its more likely that your source is why you prefer the colored 2005 to the ultra revealing direct digital Pany45.

BTW... these go for 3-400.00 used, not 200.00.

[M Code]

Originally posted by Earz
So if your tastes lean towards colored, which they obviuosly do, then fine, but the 45 is far more revealing than the hybrid 2005.



Earz..
Could you clarify the meaning of hybrid..
In reviewing the 2005's output stage circuit diagram we failed to find any hybrid components.. even the Mos-Fet outputs are discrete.

Sounds like maybe you have some obsolete information as the older now discontinued 1001 (now over 2 years old) did have hybrid power IC (Apogee) but then again the XR-50 has a hybrid IC (TI 5182)....

[Earz]

Originally posted by M Code
Earz..
Could you clarify the meaning of hybrid..
In reviewing the 2005's output stage circuit diagram we failed to find any hybrid components.. even the Mos-Fet outputs are discrete.

Sounds like maybe you have some obsolete information as the older now discontinued 1001 (now over 2 years old) did have hybrid power IC (Apogee) but then again the XR-50 has a hybrid IC (TI 5182)....

Hybrid is the best way to describe a digital amped receiver that is not fully digital direct imo.

OK, the 2005 has mosfets, and a large heat producing transformer, while the Pany 45 has neither and is digital direct.
A powered dac...if you will, that can read any digital fed signal up to 192hz without compromise.

The Pany has no analog conversion or processing of any kind before the binding posts(or spring clips before mods) , making it uncompromised digital direct.
When using a digital connection, everything is done in the digital domain whith zero negative feedback.
Volume, tone controls ect, are all done digitally.

I did prefer the 2005, and every other digital amped receiver over the 45 when using its analog ins, and so did the blindfolded test participants who only heard the JVC and 7100's analog section..
The 45 is known to have a not so great analog section.
Supposedly, the 50 has a better sounding analog section and the 25 was also terrible at analog.

The JVC rx-10 is another hot running digital receiver that actually has Hybrid on the front, and is also not digital direct.
The Kenwood 7100 uses a T/I solution, but yet can't read a 192hz upsampled digital signal either.
The Kenwwood may be digital, but it is compromised digital.

I also want to mention that two 45's sound much more dynamic and powerful than the single 2005 did , plus I get to use stereo powered subs.

The 45 is revealing enough that I can clearly hear the difference between my 5 custom made speakers, and the soon to go, B&W rear center with nautilus tweeter on 6.1 dd/dts tracks after adjustments.

The 45 is definitly not for everyone, with its limit of 6 channels, and zero feedback and fairly low power when using only a single receiver, but it definitly is more revealing than the 2005, and also has had no bugs.

If somone has info relating to the crackling buzzing defect affecting the overall sonics of the 2005, I have heard nothing back from my e mails to H/K about that problem, and would try another bug free 2005 if this was the case.

When I say overpriced, I only mean in comparison to the 45, or in this case, two 45's.
If you have a bug free 2005, it is definitly not overpriced in general, but it does have a tailor made sound(colored).

[capecodorthopod]

Ken,
Thanks for the tip, I'll see if I can program a macro button for this.

Earz,
Obviously you have much more experience with various digital recievers than I do, but I don't believe you have a true sense of the sonic qualities of this reciever because you were listening to one with the right speaker problem and didn't evaluate a second one. I'm sure you listened to it in modes where the crackling wasn't present but I believe either 1) the unit had other problems that affected its sound in other modes as well or 2) you were biased in your evaluation after finding a problem right away.

When the xr-70 comes out I'll get a couple, bi-amp them and do an A/B/C comparison with the dpr 2005 and one/two panny's

Maybe you should evaluate another dpr before writing its sound quality off.

[Earz]

Originally posted by capecodorthopod
Ken,
Thanks for the tip, I'll see if I can program a macro button for this.

Earz,
Obviously you have much more experience with various digital recievers than I do, but I don't believe you have a true sense of the sonic qualities of this reciever because you were listening to one with the right speaker problem and didn't evaluate a second one. I'm sure you listened to it in modes where the crackling wasn't present but I believe either 1) the unit had other problems that affected its sound in other modes as well or 2) you were biased in your evaluation after finding a problem right away.

When the xr-70 comes out I'll get a couple, bi-amp them and do an A/B/C comparison with the dpr 2005 and one/two panny's

Maybe you should evaluate another dpr before writing its sound quality off.

1 You could be right, but I had this opinion before messing whith the ohm setting, which is somehow related to the crackling buzzing.

I thought the 2005 was obviously more powerful than a single 45,it may have even had a larger soundstage, but it definitly is not as revealing as the 45, unless of course, the bug affected the overall sound quality even before I actually heard the crackling/buzzing.

My 45's are being pro modified, so it would hardly be a fair comparison now, even if the bug did effect overall sonics on the 2005 I had.
This was the whole idea for me trying all these digital receivers.
To find the one, or two as it ended up, that I sonically liked the best, and have it pro modified.

I could compare only to a Pany 25,JVC RX-10 and Kenwood 7100 at this point, and still be fair though.

[Ken Ross]

Originally posted by M Code
Earz..
Could you clarify the meaning of hybrid..
In reviewing the 2005's output stage circuit diagram we failed to find any hybrid components.. even the Mos-Fet outputs are discrete.

Sounds like maybe you have some obsolete information as the older now discontinued 1001 (now over 2 years old) did have hybrid power IC (Apogee) but then again the XR-50 has a hybrid IC (TI 5182)....

The DPR 2005 is identified by HK as a PURE DIGITAL RECEIVER. Apparently Earz has some other information that must prove HK to be mis-representing. However, until Earz can provide a schematic of the 2005 which proves that it's a "hybrid", I'll go with HK's definition.

[Ken Ross]

Originally posted by Earz
Were have you seen were others have preferred the 7100 to a Pany 45:confused:



Alan Gouger as I recall for one.

What you call "colored" others may call "accurate". Until you can present frequency response curves of the units being compared, it's simply conjecture as to which units are really more accurate. I did try the Kenwood and didn't like it. I found it had very little "oomph" in the low end and it sounded harsh to both myself and my wife. In general it seemed that people were describing the Kenwood as somewhat warmer than the Panny. This doesn't mean to ME that the Kenwood was "colored", it could just as easily have meant that the Panny itself was colored and biased toward the high end and the Kenwood was more accurate.

Additionally, I would never use a defective unit with a crackling right channel as the final determination as to the sound quality of ANY receiver by any manufacturer. In fact, reputable magazines will often not print a review of a product with such a malfunction since they know the review may well not be representative of a properly functioning unit.

The bottom line for ME and for some others that I've read on this forum, is that the DPR2005 sounds far better than the Kenwood (which I did hear) and Panny (which I personally didn't hear). You preferred the Panny and that's great. We have each found the unit that sounds "better" to us. ;)

[Earz]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ken Ross
[B]Alan Gouger as I recall for one.

Wrong....Alan preffered the 7100 to the 2005, much like I prefer the 45 to the 2005.
I don't beleive he even tried a 45.

I beleive he said the 7100 had better resolution than the 2005, and I agree.

The 7100 is just very slightly colored which can be a good thing depending on which speakers you use.
The Pany had slightly less rolled of highs but also, slightly less full in the midband as the 7100.
The Pany does have digital out to daisy chain two or more units and a unquestionable modified track record for sonics and reliabilty.

As far as using a defective unit to evaluate, it seems that some have to try several to find one that works.
This is not the kind of thing you want to deal whith after mods whith no warranty.
The person who has a 2005 modded is a very brave soul imo.

Bottom line... do your own homework, and quit using others results as they are not likely to have your room, speakers or source.

Here is how they rank as far as being colored
1 jvc
2 H/K 2005
3 Kenwood 7100
4 Pany 45

The 45 is direct digital whith no processing in the chain, and the d2 solution is designed so that basically H/K can add (color) there own house sound with it.

[DBryant]

I have not heard the 2005, but have read numerous posts where the HK was at the bottom of the pack as far as sound. I have not heard it nor am I knocking it. As far as available posts and reviews though (HT Forum, AudioCircle, AVS) most seem to prefer the Kenwood or Panny.

Again, these are opinions so if someone likes the HK, or any receiver better, enjoy it.

[Alex solomon]

Ken Ross, FYI Alan Gouger preferred the Kenwood 7100 not only over the HK 2005 but also the Denon 4802.

[tonyunclejohnny]

There are great prices to be had on the DPR 1001. I just got my Toshiba 52hm 84, and I have been looking at receivers, particulary the avr 630. Is there a reason for the price drop on the 1001 other than this new model? Any recommendations?

[Ken Ross]

Originally posted by Earz
As far as using a defective unit to evaluate, it seems that some have to try several to find one that works.
This is not the kind of thing you want to deal whith after mods whith no warranty.
The person who has a 2005 modded is a very brave soul imo.

Bottom line... do your own homework, and quit using others results as they are not likely to have your room, speakers or source.



A couple of points here and I will rest as I find this discussion a bit silly since sound is such a personal thing. I will stand by what I said before, unless you have frequency response curves from these receivers, you are simply guessing as to which one is "coloring" the sound. You'll never convince me otherwise.

Second, I also stand by what I said about making assessments on a receiver which may have been defective. It is certainly your choice not to have pursued another 2005, but to make firm conclusions on a unit that has shown itself to not be working properly is not wise IMO.

Lastly, I DID do my homework and MUCH prefer the sound of the HK. I have absolutely no desire to pursue any other receivers after settling in with the beautiful sound of this unit. I was totally unimpressed with the Kenwood. Alan loved it. Each to his own. I'm glad you're enjoying your Panny. :)

[M Code]

Originally posted by Earz
[QUOTE]The 7100 is just very slightly colored which can be a good thing depending on which speakers you use.
The Pany had slightly less rolled of highs but also, slightly less full in the midband as the 7100.
The Pany does have digital out to daisy chain two or more units and a unquestionable modified track record for sonics and reliabilty.

As far as using a defective unit to evaluate, it seems that some have to try several to find one that works.
This is not the kind of thing you want to deal whith after mods whith no warranty.
The person who has a 2005 modded is a very brave soul imo.

Bottom line... do your own homework, and quit using others results as they are not likely to have your room, speakers or source.

Here is how they rank as far as being colored
1 jvc
2 H/K 2005
3 Kenwood 7100
4 Pany 45

The 45 is direct digital whith no processing in the chain, and the d2 solution is designed so that basically H/K can add (color) there own house sound with it.

Your definition of colored is severely flawed..
The Kenwood and Panasonic both use the same TI IC chip output circuit which is rated @ 0.9% THD, the 2005 is rated @ 0.15% THD and as the D2Audio solution is capable of putting out up to 5 times more power @ a THD level 80% lower than the TI IC solution found in the Panasonic and Kenwood.

Though you may think you are hearing differences that you attribute to amplifier design however, another reason I would suggest that these differences are more related to loudspeakers and room instead of electronics. Here history may be a better reference...
Over the years the reputation of a good sounding audio amplifier has at least 3 very significant characteristics..

1. It is a designed with discrete outputs not ICs.
2. It has a reasonably low THD specification of <0.2%, a THD spec of 0.9% is very high and is audible.
3. Minimal negative feedback.


Since the TI design only has #3 but the D2Audio design has all 3, I have to agree to disagree that the TI sounds better. But then again it is the listener's ears that have to be the crucial, ultimate final judge which design meets his criteria...

[catapult]

I haven't followed the thread carefully so I apologize if this has already been said.

Over the years the reputation of a good sounding audio amplifier has at least 3 very significant characteristics..

1. It is a designed with discrete outputs not ICs.Nonsense. Visit the chip amp forum over at diyaudio.com for a slew of differing opinions.
2. It has a reasonably low THD specification of <0.2%, a THD spec of 0.9% is very high and is audible. The Panasonics have a high THD spec because they push the rated power spec beyond what TI intended for those chips. They do that for marketing reasons, i.e. it's a "100 watt amp." Back the power down to realistic levels, say 75 watts (-1.2 dB) and the THD spec falls in line.
3. Minimal negative feedback.
Yup.

[Earz]

Mcode...its im distortion that genneraly causes coloration and history means squat when it comes to digital receivers, and yes I, unlike you have read the entire technical discussion at diyaudio.com about digital amps and the T/I solution..maybe you should catch up when your not busy marketing the often buggy 2005 on this board.

I do not even accept your opinion on anything related to the dpr2005, as you make a living off them.

I have been through enough hi end gear...and I am not talking receivers here, to know what colored, tailored sound... sounds like.

The Pany has no processing or limits to what it can read digittaly.
All others including the 2005 and Kenwood do.
If your saying all T/I based receivers should sound the same, then maybe you had better stick to marketing, because this is b.s.

You know very well that on the d2 site it explains that there amps can be tailored to a manufactures liking...this means coloring the sound., although I am sure you will have an explanation that is better for marketing.

As dbryant said, check elseswhere(audio sites), where nobody is selling the 2005, and you will find nothing good said about it as compared to either the Pany or Kenwood.

The 2005 does not put out 200 watts into my 6ohm speakers like my two Panny 45's do, and it also DOES NOT have as good of resolution.

Also they don't have qc problems like the 2005, and are rated for 6-8 ohm speakers, not just 8ohms like your trying to spew in the other thread.

I don't think sellers of any gear should be allowed to post there biases that they claim to be opinion, and I think you should have let it be known right away that you made a living off selling these early in this thread.

You also claim you sold many of these whithout any bugs, but your numbers are not even close to the qc numbers posted by consumers for this receiver.

T/I is used in Tact gear, which is hi end...please name one hi end brand that uses d2.
You can't because there are none.

[catapult]

Geez, I didn't realize I stepped into the middle of a food fight. ;) T/I is used in Tact gear, which is hi end...please name one hi end brand that uses d2. Well that's not really fair because the D2 amps are new on the market. FWIW, everything I've heard about the D2 amps has been quite favorable. TI and D2, and others as well, all build good amps. There's no need to put down good technology.

[thirdkind]

I've read through this whole thread, and I can't find a single bit of evidence anywhere regarding the supposed superiority of any of these products. All I see are a bunch of opinions.

When it comes to "audiophiles", there are as many opinions about what's "right" and what's "wrong" as there are people.

If one of these receivers is so obviously correct and the others so obviously flawed, certainly someone must have some objective measurements that demonstrate this plain and irrefutable truth.

Oh, I forgot. Audiophiles don't rely on facts and figures. They use their mystical golden ears to determine what's best. These golden ears allow them to filter out room acoustics, speaker colorations, and differences in recording quality to determine what is ultimately the best gear.

Has anyone noticed that just about every "audiophile" you talk to has different gear? Wouldn't they all be unanimous in their opinions if it were so obvious one audio component was superior to another?

I agree with Ken. Produce some hard numbers that prove the XR45 is accurate and uncolored. Produce some hard numbers that prove your speakers have a ruler-flat frequency response within your listening space. Provide the detailed results of the hearing test that show you possess the ideal human aural response curve.

"You can't because there are none." - Earz

And not everyone thinks these digital receivers are the best thing since sliced bread. Plenty of "audiophiles" have tried the XR45 and gone back to their analog separates.

As for the 2005's reliability problems, I don't see any hard proof that these are failing all over the place. All I see are a few gripes on a forum with a membership of over 100,000 people. I went through two defective Sharp Z10000 DLP projectors before getting a good one (the first had a defective fan, the second had dead mirrors). That was my bad luck. Same applies here.

[DBryant]

So specs on paper would prove these claims? The tell-tale should be the sound and people who have made real world comparisons to other receivers out there on the market. It still comes down to preference and there are an abundance of people who like the sound of the Panny over some very expensive gear. Proof is in the hearing, not on paper.

[thirdkind]

Not specs--analysis. If the XR45 is truly uncolored, its frequency response, as well as the frequency response of everything else in the system, including the listening room itself, should be flat in order to make that assertion. I'd bet my next paycheck it's not.

You're absolutely right. It comes down to preference. Do people prefer the XR45 universally? No.

[Spoonfed]

I was at a store today checking out an HK AVR630.

My current receiver is a Denon 1602 i've had for years.

I have home demoed the a Denon 3805 and Arcam AVR300.

While both do offer improvment (more so the arcam) i did not see the HUGE improvement i was hoping for.
(i have noticed more "change"..... in swapping my Tara Lab's speaker cable with Nordist Solar Wind.. (bi-wire type))

My mains are Quad 12L's
Centre is also Quad
Rears wharfdale

At the store i noticed the 2005.... and it got me thinking.


This thread has really opened my mind. I "seems" that a digital receiver is the true option?

I do prefer a little more "fuller" sound and don't mind a "touch" of added warmth.

While im not sure when the XR70 will be available in Australia

Im wondering what you guys think the XR70 or the 2005/1005 would compare in music quality vs a 3805 or Arcam AVR300?

If the panasonic units are really as good as mentioned... a XR70 will certainly be the choice at 1/6th the price (a guess) of a AVR300..... if it can "match" or better the Arcams sound quality.

While i could get home demos of the 3805 and AVR300.... this gets a bit harder with cheaper gear such as the panny's..... which is usually sold in non "professional" type stores whom have never heard of a "loan" :) hehe

opinions/suggestions appreciated.

[Tack]

Originally posted by Earz
and yes I, unlike you have read the entire technical discussion at diyaudio.com

busy marketing the often buggy 2005 on this board.

maybe you had better stick to marketing, because this is b.s.

I am sure you will have an explanation that is better for marketing.

like your trying to spew in the other thread.

you made a living off selling these early in this thread.





Its all fun and games till people get personal.

Ever noticed how many problems Mcode has fixed for people with a simple one line post on these boards?
Its a lot.

There are other ways of getting your point across w/out being rude.

[thirdkind]

Originally posted by Spoonfed
At the store i noticed the 2005.... and it got me thinking.


This thread has really opened my mind. I "seems" that a digital receiver is the true option?

I do prefer a little more "fuller" sound and don't mind a "touch" of added warmth.

While im not sure when the XR70 will be available in Australia

Im wondering what you guys think the XR70 or the 2005/1005 would compare in music quality vs a 3805 or Arcam AVR300?

I recently started scaling back my system in an attempt to recover some funds. This included selling my treasured AVM 20 preamp and Rotel RMB-1075/RB-1050 amps. I decided to give the 2005 a shot.

Keep in mind I've only listened to one movie so far--Attack of the Clones. I had watched it the night before I received my 2005, and I only had my M&K speakers for one more day (sold those too), so I figured I'd watch the same movie again since it was still fresh in my mind. I use an HTPC with optical digital out to the receiver.

What I thought would be a downgrade turned out to be a sonic upgrade. The noise floor on the 2005 is in the basement and dialog is the clearest I've ever heard it presented. The difference was clear and audible. The 2005 doesn't have the configurability of the AVM 20, but I'm sure within a few years' time you'll see some really incredible digital amps that can do some amazing things, particularly in the area of room correction.

I wrote up a more comprehensive review (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=441326) if you want to read it.

You should definitely give any of the digital receivers a shot. You might be surprised.

[CanadianHT]

Sounds like you made a great choice.

Congrats!

[milaz001]

thirdkind, you are right on the money. Totally agree w/ your posts.

And not everyone thinks these digital receivers are the best thing since sliced bread. Plenty of "audiophiles" have tried the XR45 and gone back to their analog separates.

Yup. Tried the XR50 in 2 different setups, not impressed at all. Back to analog amplification (h/k 130 and NAD C320). Very interested in hearing the 2005, but the units I've heard sofar have not been anything worth getting excited about.

[Spoonfed]

Hmmmm does seem that these digital units can really impress.... though esp with the lower $ models speaker choice seems to make a big difference to how it performs.... and inturn peoples perceptions.

Third Kind
I was considering a Rotel RSP 1066pre/pre and RMB 1075 but if the 2005 sonicly outperforms (and it sound quite noticably) then i think it is the choice.

I really hope the only other Brisbane stockist has the DPR models (going there today) as the shop i sore it at yesterday was one of them "department" type electronics stores....... hopeless to try and listen to stuff in (though the guy did not mind at all if i brought my speakers in etc)

Im thinking the HK models may be better with my Quad's than the Panny's etc which will apparently seem a little more "transparent" some feel a little thin..... lacking warmth/depth of the HK's. With the Quads being a fairly neutral speaker... also a little thirst..... perhaps some added "fullness" will be much welcome?

[thirdkind]

I had a 1066/1075 combo before upgrading to the AVM 20. The 2005 is noticeably superior to both.

[Spoonfed]

ooooooooooooooooooh stopit....... ur going to make me $$$$ BUY BUY today :) hehe

[Ken Ross]

Originally posted by Earz
..maybe you should catch up when your not busy marketing the often buggy 2005 on this board.

I do not even accept your opinion on anything related to the dpr2005, as you make a living off them.



I've rarely seen a guy with such a vendetta against a piece of equipment. M Code may sell the unit, but that does not make his opinion worthless. I don't sell the HK and agree with much of what he says about the sound quality. You on the other hand sound like a guy who works for Panasonic. I'm sure you don't, but I'm simply showing you how easily someone can misconstrue what is said. Is there any reason why you can't live and let live? Is there any reason why you can't accept the fact that some love the sound of the HKs, do not think they're "inaccurate" and have done A/Bs with other digital units?

Man, let it rest.

[Ken Ross]

Originally posted by thirdkind

If one of these receivers is so obviously correct and the others so obviously flawed, certainly someone must have some objective measurements that demonstrate this plain and irrefutable truth.

I agree with Ken. Produce some hard numbers that prove the XR45 is accurate and uncolored. Produce some hard numbers that prove your speakers have a ruler-flat frequency response within your listening space. Provide the detailed results of the hearing test that show you possess the ideal human aural response curve.

"You can't because there are none." - Earz



Bingo! This is what drives me nuts. We are to believe that one receiver is colored and the other is dead accurate but yet we have no frequency response curves to support it. We are to believe without hesitation that someone with "golden ears" and the necessary measuring equipment "in his head" can sift through all of this and find the "real truth". Amazing stuff, really.

[Tack]

Well, Frys has this on sale right now......I may have to go pick one up.

Yes I think I DO have to go pick one up. :)


BTW for those frustrated with Frys online presence(or lack thereof) and who live in Socal or texas, this is a very nice resource.

http://www.frys-electronics-ads.com/

Ill let ya know how it sounds altho my ears are far from "golden"---somewhere between tin and nickel..

Its got what Im looking for--- Power, dplIIx and bass management for analog ins.

[Spoonfed]

The bass management of the 2005 does seem very good... adjustable on analogue inputs and adjustable on per speaker "pair"........ fair better than the 3805 and Arcam AVR300 i demo'ed.


I just came back from listening to a 2005.
I demoed only in 2ch stereo

Firstly i did not hear the right channel noise that has been mentioned.... so maybe this is only a "per unit" issue...... the unit was dead quite on no sound playing and on quiet passages.

I took my own speakers and cables.

Speakers Quad 12L
Cable BirWire Nordist Solar Wind

Firstly he had a roksan CD player connected via analogue input.
Changing this to digital a cleaner sound i could notice straight away.

The "sound" of the 2005 was certainly different to my current denon 1602.

a very "full" sound..... somewhat warmer if thats the right term as others have described.

First thing is it made my 12L's sound larger than i have ever heard them. Vocals seemed to have greater range... extending to the "depths" better than i have ever noticed before on the 12L's.

I also have to comment on the noise floor as others have. One track i played (which i know well) being DEAD quiet BUT with vocals in and out it was apperent where they had introduced the vocal mix.... with some background hiss....i had never noticed this before on any system.

Dynamics:
The 2005 did seem very dynamic..... this i liked

Detail:
I personally did not "notice" increased detail .... if anything i thought perhaps less detail.... it may not be less detail.... perhaps it is the "less bright" sound im use to with the Denon masking some crispness/edgeyness?
I do find however that it takes me a lot of listening to known tracks... where unconsiously i will pickup something in a recording i have never heard before..... this is what i see as "detail"..... i guess many people perhaps interprit hearing "more" of something... ie cymbals/treble as detail... which is not really the case.

HEAT:
While i did no push the unit too much i did run it at -15db volume for quite a few tracks in 2ch. While the front right of the unit gets a little warm (id say like a conventional AVR at idle or with moderate load) the back left where i think the digital amp module is kept very cool indeed.

I am not decided yet...... i think i will go back next week and have more of a listen.... bring my old 1602 for good measure (convicing hehe)

His "list" price is $2800AUD with the 3805 $2500AUD and the AVR300 $3700

I can get the 3805 for $2200.... the arcam AVR300 $3000 and id guess the 2005 at $2500 which seemingly makes it a good buy?

I really wanted to hear a 1005 to compare.... though it seems there is none in Australia :(

An added bonus i guess of the 2005 is its "digital" nature........ ie worring about high quality analogue source is a thing of the past......... a low jitter reasonable digital feed will provide best results.

[Ken Ross]

Spoonfed, I too have absolutely zero noise from my right channel in any mode, including 2 ch stereo. Reading posts from some, you would think this is endemic to the species....it is not! This unit is as quiet as it gets.

[lowly_tech1]

I have had the 2005 for almost a full 3 months. I never had the right static in the right channel until I switched to 4 ohms in the speaker optimizer, turn the receiver off (not standby) back on and play a source with a digital connection in(i.e. never happened on analog sources). I have contacted H/K about the issue, and I have been told 3 separate times that they are aware of the problem and will have a software fix to resolve the issues. Until then I have left my speaker settings at 8ohm despite my 4 ohm speakers and have had absolutely no static from the right channel for over a month.

[Tack]

Just got home with the 2005. Good thing I went tonight as I got the last one.
Now to the unpacking/checking out I love this part, makes me feel like a kid again.
:)

Spoon, the list price difference between the 3805 and 2005 is quite a bit less than it is here in the US>

[Spoonfed]

Tack,

Ohhh $2800AUD vs $2500AUD............ so is this making the HK 2005 even "better" value here i guess?

The 3805 seems "super" value in the states...... seems less so here and in the UK..... where its similar in POUNDS to USD!!!!

Well hurry up Tack........... let us know!!!!!!!!!!!!!! some of us want to be kids again also!! :) hehe
(oh yeah other equipement connected/previous reciever etc would be nice also)


LowlyTech1,

have you noticed any advantage going from 8ohm setting to 4ohm setting?
(ie negate the noise issue.... im talking quality... power etc?)

To be fair im not sure what the 2005 i demoed was set in...... it seemed to drive my 12L's with easy..... ample to spare...... more so than other recievers i have tested (3805 and AVR300).

They are 6ohm speakers......

Does the 2005 only have a 4ohm and 8 ohm setting???? or also a 6ohm??? if so does the "noise" isssue only occur in 4ohm?? (ie is 6 and 8 fine.?)


Ken Ross,
What "mode" are you running yours in?

[audionut101]

Originally posted by Earz
T/I is used in Tact gear, which is hi end...please name one hi end brand that uses d2. You can't because there are none.

Earz- Relax. No one is saying you made the wrong or right choice. Although I disagree with the 'colored' statement, you are intitled to your own opinion. In terms of QC, I think now there are more users who dont experience the buzzing noise. I would think it probably has something to do with the impedence of the speaker. This is the same reason the dpr1001 was cancelled. But the percentage of people experiencing this problem is less now that we have more people trying the 2005. I do believe you in that it is present, but not in as many applications as before.

In terms of another hi end brand that is current using d2, I dont know any personally. I know the d2 technology is pretty new. I also know the d2 technology is much more expensive than the TI products- does that make it better? no- not by any means. All that means is that it would be more costly to implement. TI has economies of scale on its side.

btw, I did hear that av123 is going to use the d2 technology on their new ribbon speakers- so full digital ALL THE WAY TO THE SPEAKER! Similar to Meridian, but cheaper AND CUSTOMIZABLE. This is what I AM WAITING FOR!!! I may have to ditch the 2005 for this setup to be honest!! Is av123 high end? If you look at most of their lineup, I would say no. I think their Ref3 speaker and their upcoming ribbons (think genesis) may put them in that league though.

Originally posted by Earz
The 2005 does not put out 200 watts into my 6ohm speakers like my two Panny 45's do, and it also DOES NOT have as good of resolution.
I am not sure I understand this statement. I thought the panny XR45 was tested to put out about 80 watts in some magazine test? I do not think you are claiming any different are you? I know HK have always tested higher than spec although there hasnt been a review of the 2005. I know when I put the panny on my maggies there was much less measured output than the 2005 when using a RS SPL meter (I know it isnt the best measurement, but at least it is something).

To be VERY frank, all I can say is that my opinions AND ears differ GREATLY with Alan Gouger. Because of him, I have tried the Mirage Omni speakers as well as the Magnepan MMGs with very bad results. I know the golden rule was to always listen to everything yourself.......but with his comments and background on these boards, I decided to take a leap of faith and try a few sets of speakers based soley on his comments.......what it cost me was extra unecessary shipping charges back and forth. Is his comments/ears wrong?? Not in ANY way. All I can say is that our tastes are greatly "different".

If the panny works for you, great. Hopefully you will be able to hear actual differences in the mods you make. It would really be cool to do a TRUE double blind test on a modded panny and a stock panny. I would really be intrested in the results.

In the end, we are all looking for audio nirvana right? It doesnt matter if you drive a camaro or mustang to get there.

[Tack]

Its 2 am here so I cant do any real volume but what Ive heard so far makes me very excited. This thing is crystal clear and gives you the impression that its got gobs of power.Very controlled.

The bass manager is really nice. Exactly what I had hoped.
No crackling noises heard so far.
Remote is not something I would have designed but functional.

My avr 7000(I forgot how heavy that thing is) that this replaces was DD/DTS only so its gonna take me a couple days to explore all the options and get it dialed in.

I had some old Fisher floor-standers I hooked up for surr speakers till my S312s get here Tuesday.
I didn't hook up my crown amp to the mains and I hope I don't need to.

Lots of fun but Ive been up for almost 24 hrs now :)

[Spoonfed]

hahah ahhhh yes we are all "little boys" again sometime :) hehe

This receiver sounds very promising...... the fact that some of u guys that have owned/own MUCH MUCH higher end gear can comment on the 2005's sound quality as a equal/superiour speaks a fair bit....... usually one reads about people with higher end gears experiences with receivers is of negative opinion.

[Ken Ross]

Originally posted by Spoonfed

Ken Ross,
What "mode" are you running yours in?

The unit is used primarily for HT applications in a 5.1 setup. As you know, for PCM satellite channels the unit defaults to Logic 7. In actuality, after experimenting, I tended to prefer this mode anyway. I've chosen the Logic 7 Cinema mode as the default. On DD channels I go with the default decoding.

[Spoonfed]

ahhhh i ment what "ohm" mode......... just trying to narrow down this "noise" issue......... seems that maybe its only when set to 4 ohm and
at 6ohm and 8 ohm it is not there?

also it seems that a software update fix has been "promised" for this

[lowly_tech1]

Spoonfed,

The 2005 has settings for 4, 6,or 8 ohms. I got the same static when I tried 6 ohms. The only way to make it stop is to go back to 8 ohms. You can switch it in the OSD back to 4 ohms and if you don't turn it off/change surround modes it is fine.
I have Magnepan MC1 as my fronts. When I change the setting in the 2005 to 4 ohms, most notably the loudness is reduced slightly. It is almost like the 8 ohm setting is a tad bit harsh compared to the 4 ohm. From what I can tell, you can turn the volume louder and get cleaner sound from the 4 ohm setting.

[Spoonfed]

ahhh i understand. it does "seem" like a software issue though given it only re-occurs when sourround mode is changed "after" setting to 4/6ohm.

I guess 6ohm is what i need for the Quads.

Perhaps when i demoed it was in 8ohm..... will have check when i go back.

Oh also what is the volume range?

Is i -80 to +20 like the 3805? (thats what the sales guy told me)... just curious to know how "far" i was pushing it..... if its +20 and "clean" to +20 it has some serious grunt.

[lowly_tech1]

The volume range is -80 to +10. I haven't pushed it past -5 myself.

[catapult]

FWIW, NHT chose the D2 amps for their new DSP controlled active speaker system. There are a couple of threads about it in the archives. That doesn't necessarily say anything about the amps' quality but the DEQX DSP solution they chose is state of the art - similar to what TacT is doing. I have little doubt that the package will achieve the coveted "audiophile" rating. ;)

Ah, found the threads:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=351866
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=419333

Info about the retail version of the DEQX:
http://www.e-speakers.com/products/deqx-new.html

[Ken Ross]

Originally posted by Spoonfed
ahhhh i ment what "ohm" mode......... just trying to narrow down this "noise" issue......... seems that maybe its only when set to 4 ohm and
at 6ohm and 8 ohm it is not there?

also it seems that a software update fix has been "promised" for this

O.K., got you...yes, I'm using 8 ohms. That may explain why I've had no problems with the right channel.

[lowly_tech1]

Had a strange thing happen the other night and was wondering if any of you have experenced it or take this as a warning. My volume on the 2005 did the ol H/K ghost volume increase (heard of happening to the AVR 525). No one was in the family room and the unit was on video2 on an analog input and the volume increased by itself very loud. When I ran in and turned it down it never turned back up, and it hasn't since then. It really makes me worried about leaving the room now.

[jopapgh]

Bought one of these. Configured and worked well initially.

Since I have 4 ohm Carver Cinema Series 5.1 speakers, I then reconfigured for 4 ohms.

Upon reconfig, noise in center and right front made the unit unlistenable. Not talking audiophile unlistenable, but to the point that I couldn't even understand dialog.

Got the following response from HK:
Good afternoon and thank you for your inquiry. I can understand your concern with the DPR 2005. The temporary solution is to switch the speakers to 8 ohms. The distortion only occurs when the speakers are set to 4 ohms. We are currently in the final testing stages of a software update that will address the problem. It should be available shortly, please check back periodically or through our website for updates, www.harmankardon.com.

Doesn't say much for QC on a nearly $2K piece of equipment...

[jopapgh]

Another strange thing: I am replacing an old Sony dolby digital processor hooked up to a 5 channel Carver amp. A dishnetwork 6000 reciever was connected via optical cable.

HBO feeds to the Sony would trigger the dolby digital indicator and decoding, but the same feed does not trigger dolby digital on the H/K. But OTA HD feed via the Dish 6000 does trigger dolby digital. Thoughts on where to go with this?

[Ken Ross]

Are you sure the HBO broadcast was Dolby Digital? Many movies are just PCM stereo. It is possible that the Sony was indicating a DD broadcast when it actually wasn't. Just a thought.

[RobR7]

question about the ohms, most of the speakers I'll be getting are rated for 8 ohms, except the surronds which are 6 ohms... what is best to set it up initially as to avoid the bug.

[Ken Ross]

Rob, if you stick to 8 ohms, you'll be fine.

[RobR7]

'preciate it... looks like I'm leaning towards the 2005

[catapult]

A couple of comments....

The "warm" sound of the analog HK amps isn't because of any frequency response tailoring. They are dead flat from 20-20K, just like any other good solid state amp. What makes them different from the amps in most receivers is they have a very high peak current capability. That means they don't run out of juice on demanding bass passages so they may sound "warm" compared to other receivers.

The "ohms" setting of digital amps only applies to the speaker impedance in the 10K-20K region -- it's tweaking the lowpass filter to get rid of the digital noise which is a part of all digital amps. The nominal ohms rating of the speaker says nothing about its actual impedance at high frequencies. Most tweeters have a much higher impedance at the highest frequencies than the nominal impedance of the speakers. Most people, with normal speakers, should run their digital amps set at 8 ohms. Only those with unusual speakers, ribbons etc., should consider a lower setting and they should look at their actual impedance curve in the 10K-20K region before setting it lower than 8 ohms

[GoFlashGo]

Any new DPR 2005 purchases out there? I'm particularly interested to hear from people that were originally in the market for analog amps then chose the 2005.

To my non-audiophile ears, the 2005 sounds great but I'm also looking at the Denon 3805 and the Marantz 7500.

I'm still sitting on the fence because of some nasty HK quality problem threads at HT forum (and apparent customer service issues) and my concern that if the DPR's don't catch on they won't be supported.

Looking for more happy DPR owners! Are digital path amps really the wave of the furture or the next 8 track tape or betamax? I know the analogies are loose but I still wonder.

[vishal]

I just purchased one last week. Unit sounds incredible, tons of power, although the Panny XR50 I had may have been sounded just a little cleaner. Maybe the 2005 needs some more break-in time.

On the other hand, the video switching on the receiver was DOA. Neither composite nor S-Video will pass-through. Seems like HK QC is the same as always...

[flamboyant1220]

Just an update, I sent HK an email today and this the responced I got.


Harman Consumer Group: Welcome to Harman Consumer Group, Omar Torres!
You are next in line, thank you for waiting.
Your representative will join you momentarily.
Harman Consumer Group: Your representative, Charlie, has arrived.
Charlie: Good morning. Please give me a minute to read over your
question.
Charlie: Thank you for holding.
Charlie: I am not sure who spoke you with, but, we have not been given
any information on a possible CD upgrade for the DPR2005. The rep must
have been mistaken, as we are expecting a firmware upgrade for the
AVR430/630 receiver.
Omar Torres: So what is being done for DPR 2005? I was not the only one
told this about the DPR 2005 a couple of other guys were told this on
my the hometheater forum I belong to.
Charlie: I do not know of any possible upgrade for the DPR2005. Let me
look into this for you. Please give me a minute.
Omar Torres: Charlie you are the first to tell me this. I have spoken
to couple of other techs at HK and been told about a update. I have even
saved some of there Emails. If you will like I would forward them to
you?
Charlie: If you can send those to me, I would appreciate this. Please
send this to websupport4@harman.com
Omar Torres: So what does this mean to me and other who have the same
poblem?
Charlie: Let me see what I can find out about any upgrade, as I am not
sure that the noise is something that would be remedied by an upgrade.
Charlie: Are you still going to send the e-mails, so I can read these.
Omar Torres: Yes I am in trying to send them as we speak.
Omar Torres: I just sent it.
Charlie: Omar, if you could provide your e-mail address I would like to
further discuss this issue. This is something that would take more
time than the chat would allow. I will try to find more info on this
topic and possible upgrade.
Omar Torres: Sure this is my Email address flamboyant1220@yahoo.com
Omar Torres: Sure flamboyant1220@yahoo.com
Charlie: Thank you. i will be sending you an e-mail within a few
minutes. This way, we can work to resolve this issue.
Omar Torres: Thank You

Wow am I upset has anybody heard anything else on this? I'm still waiting for his email. I love this reciver but they have to get this problem fix. This is not a cheap priced unit. It is not like I paid $100 for this unit, come on guys.
Hopefully this guys is mistaken. Has anybody gotten there 2005 fix?

[M Code]

Originally posted by flamboyant1220
Just an update, I sent HK an email today and this the responced I got.


Harman Consumer Group: Welcome to Harman Consumer Group, Omar Torres!
You are next in line, thank you for waiting.
Your representative will join you momentarily.
Harman Consumer Group: Your representative, Charlie, has arrived.
Charlie: Good morning. Please give me a minute to read over your
question.
Charlie: Thank you for holding.
Charlie: I am not sure who spoke you with, but, we have not been given
any information on a possible CD upgrade for the DPR2005. The rep must
have been mistaken, as we are expecting a firmware upgrade for the
AVR430/630 receiver.
Omar Torres: So what is being done for DPR 2005? I was not the only one
told this about the DPR 2005 a couple of other guys were told this on
my the hometheater forum I belong to.
Charlie: I do not know of any possible upgrade for the DPR2005. Let me
look into this for you. Please give me a minute.
Omar Torres: Charlie you are the first to tell me this. I have spoken
to couple of other techs at HK and been told about a update. I have even
saved some of there Emails. If you will like I would forward them to
you?
Charlie: If you can send those to me, I would appreciate this. Please
send this to websupport4@harman.com
Omar Torres: So what does this mean to me and other who have the same
poblem?
Charlie: Let me see what I can find out about any upgrade, as I am not
sure that the noise is something that would be remedied by an upgrade.
Charlie: Are you still going to send the e-mails, so I can read these.
Omar Torres: Yes I am in trying to send them as we speak.
Omar Torres: I just sent it.
Charlie: Omar, if you could provide your e-mail address I would like to
further discuss this issue. This is something that would take more
time than the chat would allow. I will try to find more info on this
topic and possible upgrade.
Omar Torres: Sure this is my Email address flamboyant1220@yahoo.com
Omar Torres: Sure flamboyant1220@yahoo.com
Charlie: Thank you. i will be sending you an e-mail within a few
minutes. This way, we can work to resolve this issue.
Omar Torres: Thank You

Wow am I upset has anybody heard anything else on this? I'm still waiting for his email. I love this reciver but they have to get this problem fix. This is not a cheap priced unit. It is not like I paid $100 for this unit, come on guys.
Hopefully this guys is mistaken. Has anybody gotten there 2005 fix?

HK has already advised that they will have fix for the left front noise issue when in the 4 or 6 Ohm position. For the rpesent they said leave it in teh 8 Ohm position. Contact HK technical support and request that they contact you when this is ready to go. The fix will be on a CD which is downloaded to the 2005 by a windows PC through thr RS232 reae connector. In talking to HK through my distributor they have said this will be available very soon.

[flamboyant1220]

Hey M Code
First let me say I enjoy reading your post here on AVS. I been following this problem from when it was first found out with 2005. I just wanted to say I feel just becouse you sell HK products does not mean you don't have the right to give your opion on them, like some people have said to you in the past post. That said I hope you are right. My 30 return on this unit is ending and this reply from HK made me want to return the Reciever.

[RBats]

Any updates on the fix for the ohm bug??

[flamboyant1220]

I am going to email them today and am going to try to find out what is going on.

[RBats]

flamboyant1220, did you find out anything about the fix? Thanks.

[flamboyant1220]

RBats
This is I found out so far, they are done with the update and are waiting for the OK to release it. Also the new batch of 2005's will not have the Ohm problem.

[dsg2003gt]

guys, i am returning my htr-5790 because for some reason it freezes every time i watch a movie.

I am currently waiting for the release of the hk avr 635 and will probably get one of those but...
I have read about all 50 pages tonight about these digital recievers and i am becoming more interested in these. Do you think that an hk-1005 or 2005 would be a wise choice over the avr-635 or maybe even a yamaha rx-v1500 in terms of sound quality, and overall power?

[99RedSi]

Originally posted by dsg2003gt
guys, i am returning my htr-5790 because for some reason it freezes every time i watch a movie.

I am currently waiting for the release of the hk avr 635 and will probably get one of those but...
I have read about all 50 pages tonight about these digital recievers and i am becoming more interested in these. Do you think that an hk-1005 or 2005 would be a wise choice over the avr-635 or maybe even a yamaha rx-v1500 in terms of sound quality, and overall power?

Can anyone answer this? I'd like to know as well...

[GaryMB]

My take: the DPRs are already excellent units, comparable in sound quality and superior in noise and heat characteristics to the AVRs. The DPR technology (or some form of it) is definitely the future for multi-channel amplification.

OTOH, their digital processing is a generation behind the newer AVR 435/635 which offer more accurate auto-setup, sophisticated room-EQ, and a few additional DSP options. For me, the ultimate unit, possibly to be expected about a year from now, would combine the DSP upgrades of the 435/635, DPR amplification and HDMI switching capability.

Since I don't plan to wait a year, but can wait a few weeks (possibly less), I've chosen to go for the 635 - for me, the more advanced digital processing wins the day, though it's by no means an easy choice.

YMMV.

[M Code]

Originally posted by 99RedSi
Can anyone answer this? I'd like to know as well...

You need to decide what is most important to you..
Size
Performance
Features
Budget

The Harman/Kardon AVRs and DPRs are both designed toward certain users.. Below is a brief summary of each:

1. DPR1005
Moderate power (70Wx7), great DSP modes, 7.1, HD Video Switching, Dolby Headphone, DPL2x, DTS 6.1, DTS 96/24 but biggest strength is its smaller footprint.
2. DPR2005
Big brother to the 1005, just tons of high power (120Wx7) and all of the 1005 features. Most likely the smallest, most powerful digital AVR available today as most of the other digital AVRs have 50% less power and are not high current.
3. AVR635
Brand new, just now shipping. Very powerful TI DSP processor and has a new Harman developed Room EQ system. All of the DSP modes of the DPR 1005 plus its Logic 7 is a full process and can layer over Dolby or DTS streams. Logic 7 is to my ears the best sounding DSP mode especially for music.. Power is 75Wx7, but keep in mind it is about 2 1/2 inches taller due to analog circuitry. If you want a 635, you will need an special or inside connection as I was told by a reliable source that the 635 is the highest booking AV receiver ever announced by HK. And even though the factory is working overtime, its supply will be tight for some time..


If more questions post back and I will try to answer..
No.. I am not an employee of HK..
Previously we did alot of custom AV system installs using mainly HK products and fell in deep appreciation of their great sounding amplifiers. Got very tired of the mass market lower cost products that sound terrible.. Don't do the installs anymore but am now deeply involved in auto racecar building and racing.. Hope that helps.

[purduealum91]

I s3ee onecall doesnt have it listed. Is anyone authorized taking pre-orders? Thanks!

Tom

[99RedSi]

Originally posted by M Code
You need to decide what is most important to you..
Size
Performance
Features
Budget

The Harman/Kardon AVRs and DPRs are both designed toward certain users.. Below is a brief summary of each:

1. DPR1005
Moderate power (70Wx7), great DSP modes, 7.1, HD Video Switching, Dolby Headphone, DPL2x, DTS 6.1, DTS 96/24 but biggest strength is its smaller footprint.
2. DPR2005
Big brother to the 1005, just tons of high power (120Wx7) and all of the 1005 features. Most likely the smallest, most powerful digital AVR available today as most of the other digital AVRs have 50% less power and are not high current.
3. AVR635
Brand new, just now shipping. Very powerful TI DSP processor and has a new Harman developed Room EQ system. All of the DSP modes of the DPR 1005 plus its Logic 7 is a full process and can layer over Dolby or DTS streams. Logic 7 is to my ears the best sounding DSP mode especially for music.. Power is 75Wx7, but keep in mind it is about 2 1/2 inches taller due to analog circuitry. If you want a 635, you will need an special or inside connection as I was told by a reliable source that the 635 is the highest booking AV receiver ever announced by HK. And even though the factory is working overtime, its supply will be tight for some time..


If more questions post back and I will try to answer..
No.. I am not an employee of HK..
Previously we did alot of custom AV system installs using mainly HK products and fell in deep appreciation of their great sounding amplifiers. Got very tired of the mass market lower cost products that sound terrible.. Don't do the installs anymore but am now deeply involved in auto racecar building and racing.. Hope that helps.

1) I'm not even considering the 1005 because I can get a 2005 for $899 right now.

2) See # 1

3) I use a radio shack meter to setup the speakers so a feature like this isn't as important. Granted I may not be as accurate as this feature on the latest receivers but what I don't have I won't miss! Logic 7 doesn't interest me since I'll be 5.1 at least until mid-late 2005. I don't honestly care about DSP modes anyways. I don't use them on my current receiver.. I'm not really interested in another analog AVR so the 635 is out of the question completely.

My questions:

Can I use the 2 channels in the DPR2005 that I *won't* be using, due to my 5.1 setup, to BI-AMP my mains? If I do this, will I hear the surround sounds from these jacks that would normally come out? Or is this true bi-amping?

What is the best remote I can get that will control the DPR2005, a Panny RP-56 DVD player, my Sony TV, a JVC S-VHS VCR, etc, etc? I'm tired of 5 remotes!

[armaraas]

In response to above about wondering where to pre-order the 635, I found it the other night on buy.com when I was purchasing the 235.
They have it listed there for the cheapest I have seen it, and it says you can order one now. However, I do not believe they are an authorized online reseller, unless HK's website isn't up to date. You may want to call them to find out for sure.

[M Code]

Originally posted by 99RedSi
1) I'm not even considering the 1005 because I can get a 2005 for $899 right now.

2) See # 1

3) I use a radio shack meter to setup the speakers so a feature like this isn't as important. Granted I may not be as accurate as this feature on the latest receivers but what I don't have I won't miss! Logic 7 doesn't interest me since I'll be 5.1 at least until mid-late 2005. I don't honestly care about DSP modes anyways. I don't use them on my current receiver.. I'm not really interested in another analog AVR so the 635 is out of the question completely.

My questions:

Can I use the 2 channels in the DPR2005 that I *won't* be using, due to my 5.1 setup, to BI-AMP my mains? If I do this, will I hear the surround sounds from these jacks that would normally come out? Or is this true bi-amping?
No.. Why not use these amplifiers to drive Zone II..


What is the best remote I can get that will control the DPR2005, a Panny RP-56 DVD player, my Sony TV, a JVC S-VHS VCR, etc, etc? I'm tired of 5 remotes!

For the remote you have a few choices..
The Harmony, Pronto, Studio Master..

[99RedSi]

Originally posted by M Code
No.. Why not use these amplifiers to drive Zone II..



For the remote you have a few choices..
The Harmony, Pronto, Studio Master..

So you are saying that I can use the Zone II outputs to bi-amp the mains? I'm confused, sorry!

Thanks for the tips/help

[M Code]

Originally posted by 99RedSi
So you are saying that I can use the Zone II outputs to bi-amp the mains? I'm confused, sorry!

Thanks for the tips/help

NO..
Biamp is not possible with the 2005..

[Yves Smolders]

Any word on a possible new DPR product?

I like this but need I.link for SACD direct... HDMI would be nice as well.

D2 Audio (HK amp manuf.) have now THX ultra2 compliant amps - will HK use these?

I'm also curious about the new digital stuff coming out soon, like the samsung receiver.

[catapult]

As far as I know, none of the Harman companies (HK, Lexicon, etc.) have announced any intention to support i.Link. It has been a source of frustration for Lexicon owners watching cheap receivers pass them by in technology. Someone at Harman needs a good slap upside the head. ;)

[Yves Smolders]

Sigh...

See, I'll wind up buying a Samsung Receiver soon :D lol

Maybe I'll pick up a 2005 as a temp replacement for my aging Yamaha DSP-A2.

I guess no-one can answer that question! :D

Any other recommendations for >100W/8ohm digital amplification in 5.1 or 7.1 with up to date decoding and room EQ?

I wonder if the D2audio circuits in the 2005 would drive Nautilus speakers nicely... Anything digital & better than the Yamaha (which was quite an amp at its time) would be nice.