Review of Bravo D2?

[Jim Noyd]

Originally posted by Rijax
There seems to be an issue with the Gefen switch when used with the D2

Here are posts (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=231801&sortby=&sortorder=) from this thread alone that mention this problem. It seems to be localized to the 2x1 Gefen Switch, as the 4x1 doesn't lose the signal. Does anyone know if the two have another difference other than two additional inputs?

[mandarax]

I sold a bunch of 2*1 Gefen that were suppose to be HDCP compliant... They were all faulty.. it only passed the HDCP on one side ... I know this was being addressed but not sure yet if the corrected ones were available.

Robert

[maxvengeance111]

Mandarax, the video quality of the D2? I actually think its better then the D1 and the samsung 841 and 931. I have never seen any of the other upconverting players. But it appears that the picture is sharper with the D2.

[byellin]

The problem with the D2 losing DVI after STOP or EJECT is not isolated to the Gefen switch. I picked up a Dtronics switch as well, hoping to get around the issue. No cigar! As Karl correctly points out, the problem appears to be related to the length of the cable on the output side of the switch /amp. Both the Dtronics and the Gefen work perfectly when the output cable is 2 meters. I am going 16 meters, as it is the only way to get to my projector. In the absence of any any cable upstream of the switch, the D2 does not fail. I do not know where the cutoff occurs as I only have these two lengths. So, as it is easily recreated, and as I am not the only person on the planet getting this problem (thanks Karl), it's time for Vinc to get it solved. Whatever it is, or is not, getting from the DVI cable under these circumstance should not cause it to "lose its brains." Vinc. assures me that they are working dilligently on the problem. If they respond to this as quickly as they did the loss of settings, I will be a happy camper. Everything else is working as I expect.

[tomrhyne]

Mandrax, I agree with Max on the video quality of the D2. IMHO it is better than the D1 which I just returned. Prior to the D1 I was using a RM91 with a component connection to my SIM2 300 Plus. The up conversion of the Plus was superior to the 91 so I used 480i into the Plus. There was a very noticeable improvement in PQ when I moved to the D1 at 720p connected to the Plus via DVI. I did not do an A-B comparison with the D1, but the D2 appears to be superior in PQ.

Tom
<><

[byellin]

Jim Noyd,

The 2 way has an autoswitching function that will sense the loss of signal on the input DVI port and switch to the other. The 4 way doesn't. I originally thought that the rapid switching, and signal hunting had something to do with the problem, but I can get the D2 to fail with the Dtronics as well, and it doesn't do the autoswitching as the Gefen does. BTW, when the D2 fails with the Gefen, I can just turn it off and on agian with the remote and the DVI signal comes back. When it fails with the Dtronics, it really blows the D2's brains out completely and it has to be unplugged to make it regain its composure. Wierd. Sounds like the Sigma guys have their work cut out for them. Tech support has all the gory details. I have run a zillion experiments trying to isolate this glitch. Luckily, it appears to be affecting very few of the users out there.

[Jim Noyd]

Byellin-
I think you are pushing past the limits of the DVI signal. How long is your DVI cable from the Bravo to the DVI Switch? and then to the display?

I've only heard of lengths up to 15 meters without a Fiber solution for DVI.

Larry has a Bravo D2 and Switch per the following-
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3958546#post3958546

I'm using a 9 M BetterCables DVI cable with the Digital Connection adapter to go from the projector to the switch. Then I'm using a 1 M DVI cable from Ultralink to go from the switch to the Bravo D2.

[byellin]

Jim,

I suspect that you may be right. However, every other device I have used on this setup (DENON 5900 on loan, Sony HD300) has functioned flawlessly. The D2 actually works beautifully, as long as I don't do anything that causes a message box to appear. I left out a lot of the boring and gory details of my experimentation to isolate this, but the problem occurs when the D2 attempts to put up the "RESUME FROM LAST ...(or something like this) message box after STOP or EJECT when the signal to the projector is amplified to a long cable. Whatever the logical condition that arises, the D2 firmware has a serious bug (at least to me). I will leave it to Vincs engineers to figure out why the D2 is getting "all sewed up in its own underwear" under these unique conditions. As a software engineer myself, I have high confidence in the ability to debug a condition which can be consistently recreated. Vinc has been absolutely terrific in dealing with me. Like Karl, I have some sympathy for startups, having been there myself. The typical progression of software products is that release one is minimally functional, release two is over engineered, and release three gets it close to the mark. Given this progression, I knowingly purchased release two and will work it through. I couldn't help but appreciate the price point of this product given the PQ. In the end, given the level of attention I am getting, and the price point, I would guess it will end up being well worth the risk. I'll only be disappointed if they cannot fix this.

[Jerry Pease]

Originally posted by tomrhyne
Mandrax, I agree with Max on the video quality of the D2. IMHO it is better than the D1 which I just returned.
I have the D1 and D2 side by side connected to a 4 x 1 dvi switcher to a Immersive Virtuoso 720p projector. Using two copies of the same dvd in both players with the movie paused on the same spot at the same time I can not see any difference in picture quality.

[Jerry Pease]

Originally posted by byellin
The problem with the D2 losing DVI after STOP or EJECT is not isolated to the Gefen switch. I picked up a Dtronics switch as well, hoping to get around the issue. No cigar! As Karl correctly points out, the problem appears to be related to the length of the cable on the output side of the switch /amp. Both the Dtronics and the Gefen work perfectly when the output cable is 2 meters. I am going 16 meters, ......
I can't seem to remember if I said this already but for what it is worth, I have D1 + D2 + Sony HD200 via 1 meter cheap a$$ dvi cable to an "updated" Gefen 4 x 1 switcher to a 10 meter ram electronic dvi cable to an Immersive Virtuoso projector without any issues.

Hope this helps and good luck.

[byellin]

Thanks Jerry,

I think you mentioned it earlier. This one is a real head scratcher!!! Makes no sense at all. I've seen software go through stranger logic paths than this though. Obscure things happen when there are timing dependencies, or handshakes between devices that go awry. I am not a DVI protocol expert. Trust me, I am resisting the temptation to become one, just to delve a little further into this :-). I still have a life!

[microhof]

Thanks, V Inc:

Firmware update went off without a hitch. Nice to be able to power off with the player power button! Now I won't have to take the remote with me when I go take out a disc. And I won't have to think twice about unplugging my system in a storm.

Hope to watch a movie later, will look for any potential newly introduced playback problems.

[mandarax]

Thanks guys....

I had the D1 for a short review and also the Samsung HD931... I didnt like the Samsung HD931 for a few reasons... but just going from memory ( I do think the pic is improved from the D1...) It definitely is good eye candy for the dollar and have no problem recommending it. Still working flawlessly to date. I held off the D1 but the D2 addressed the key issues that I had with the D1.

Fedex lost my orders and I do have to say that V Inc to date has been very responsive... attentive... and timely with any query, and action has taken place for every issue presented.

The demarcation point for most DVI is about 5 meters... going beyond this mark seems to have a derogatory effect... some cables doing better some doing worse. This is just through my experience tho and not scientific at all.

Robert

[oscar1]

I'm considering the Bravo D2 as an "interim" DVD solution. And thought I'd ask a few questions:

I'm presuming the PQ (at least will DVI) will blow away the component outputs of a Phillips 962 and a to-be-repaired Phillips SACD-1000 feeding a Sharp 10K DLP projector on 110" screen. Y'all think this is a pretty fair assumption ?

I'm assuming the Bravo D2 will have the DVI brightness/contrast controls the Sharp is lacking. Any known issues with the D2 wrt to these controls ?

Can anyone predict whether I may be better off using 1080i/480i or 720p/480p output (DVI or component) to feed the Sharp ? (I don't even know what resolutions the Bravo supports). A related question, how much should I expect to spend for a DVD player which does a better job of de-interlacing/scaling than the Sharp 10K ?

Can anyone recommend a good DVI switcher ? Gefen ? I'm currently running a Ram Electronics 15m DVI cable from a Dishnetwork 811 HD Receiver to the Sharp with adequate results ? What switcher will be least likely to significantly degrade the DVI output of either the HD receiver or a DVI-capable player ?

Thanks

[microhof]

ehhhhh --- read the thread? seriously, all your questions have been answered somewhere in the past 13 pages

[WynsWrld98]

I've been using a Lindy 10m DVI cable for a good year and it has worked awesome with my Bravo D1 and also tests with my Zenith HD-SAT520. Perfect picture quality better than component video. However, it has crashed and burned on the Bravo D1 through both the Gefen and Dtronics DVI switchers (although the Zenith works fine through both).

[lyric]

I'm looking for help with my new movie viewing rig. I'm definitely new here and new to modern AV equipment -- I appologize if I've posted this in the wrong place or am asking questions that have already been answered. If someone can help me out or direct me to a thread I've overlooked in these forums I'd apreciate it!

I've just set up my Hitachi 50V500 and Vinc Bravo D2 yesterday. I'm experiencing an image quality problem and the product literature and setup menus on the TV and the DVD haven't even touched it. I don't know if it's related to the TV or the DVD player... but I'm posting this in the D2 thread on a hunch it's the player (not to mention the player is MUCH easier to return) Am I doing something wrong? Do I have defective equipment? Is my DVI cable the culprit? I applied the June 14 firmware upgrade to the D2 -- no change.

Problem: Tonal shifts are not smooth, exhibiting a blocky pattern (other words I can think of to describe this are "dithered" or "posterized"). This is most evident where color shifts tones or hues gradually, such as in light falling across a face, or in an out-of-focus area such as expanses of sky, hair or interior wall. It looks as a video would on a computer with the color bit depth set too low. Frankly, it looks awful and it appears in almost everything I view to one degree or another.

Something else is puzzling me and I don't know if it's related. I've been led to believe that the 50V500's native resolution is 720P. Yet when I set the D2 to display in 720P these problems are much worse and there are other artifacts -- lines and edges are not smooth. the 480P setting yields a noticeably superior viewing experience -- two friends have confirmed this. Even the D2's menus and overlays are blockier in 720P...

One other artifact I have noticed is rarer. So far I've only caught it in 480P (which I've used much more since 720P looks so bad) -- sometimes when there is an abrupt cut there is a moment of horrible "comb" effect -- those squared off jags I would normally associate with an interlaced conversion. It's hard to notice but one other person has also caught it. It's almost subtle enough to live with and certainly the least of my problems. I think Microhof also noted this...

Reference: I've compared scenes from the following DVDs: Royal Tenenbaums, Final Fantasy, Laurel Canyon, Ab Fab 5 and Drop Dead Gorgeous (Don't knock my taste in movies -- this is just what was at hand for testing!). I chose scenes that highlighted this problem -- soft lighting, gently moving shadows across faces, long hair out-of-focus and in motion -- to view on my laptop. The laptop (a Sony Vaio TR1A) displayed even tones in all of these situations -- no dithering or blockiness at all. In fact my laptop's image is superior in many aspects. Is this too high a standard?

Any help in troubleshooting this problem is appreciated!

[microhof]

Is this your first time watching a DVD with your own bigscreen TV? That's not meant to be insulting. First, be warned that sometimes if the DVD was mastered poorly (or if the scenes are just too complex), that blockiness or gradiant or dithering or any other such visual problem could likely be there on the DVD as a result of compression. If you get up really close or you sit there staring at a still photo for too long you can easily see the effects of the MPEG-4 compression. Specifically with older movies -- the other day I watched Do The Right Thing, and this movie exhibited it pretty badly... I could tell that each frame of a person's moving face had been compressed almost entirely separately and with some combination of a poor source and a poor algorithm. Put in Lord of the Rings and I don't see it -- I guess a testament to how far DVD and MPEG-4 have come in the industry.

However if what you are seeing seems very unreasonable and very intrusive to your viewing experience, perhaps something *IS* causing excessive problems. Does your TV do any sort of its own processing on a DVI signal that might need to be "turned off"? I am wary to blame your cable. There is a lot of mythology about DVI cabling out there. The truth is, it'll work or not work, unless you've gone over the suggested 5 meter range limit, in which case certain properties of the conduction medium may start to impact the signal.

The combing you see I believe is nothing more than the limitations of certain low-end (and high-end) progressive scan technology. My explanation of choice is that the DVD itself is screwed up around the cuts as far as its progressive flags go, which is supposedly common especially around scene cuts. When stuff like that happens, the player has to use its best algorithms to figure out what to do, and if it can't then for the duration of the confusion you're going to see a burp like that. Even the high-end expensive models can't always do this well. To learn more about progressive scan visit the Secrets DVD Shootout site specifically the progressive scan explanation (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html).

Any DVD will look stunning on a small enough TV. On a big TV, however, you start to discern the compression effects, and the limited resolution. So these players try to help us live with that. The first thing I can suggest is to look at a few which I have personally viewed and tell me if/where you are seeing these same picture quality problems. Two which I believe you won't have any complaints about are Dinosaur and Lord of the Rings: Return of the King.

[Jim Noyd]

Lyric-
A couple of things-Nice 720p LCD RPTV!
Have you done a home calibration on the DVI setting with AVIA or DVE?
What are your Brightness/contrast/color levels on the Bravo D2?
What are your video settings on the display?

[Jerry Pease]

Originally posted by lyric
I'm looking for help with my new movie viewing rig. I'm definitely new here and new to modern AV equipment -- I appologize if I've posted this in the wrong place or am asking questions that have already been answered. If someone can help me out or direct me to a thread I've overlooked in these forums I'd apreciate it!

I've just set up my Hitachi 50V500 .......................... or blockiness at all. In fact my laptop's image is superior in many aspects. Is this too high a standard?

Any help in troubleshooting this problem is appreciated!
since you are new you might want to spend sometime in the RPTV forum and try to get know your rptv. Some of the issues you are describing might be induced by your display. At least try to figure out what is the real native resolution of your display. That's where I wound start.

[Dave Harper]

Originally posted by microhof
...If you get up really close or you sit there staring at a still photo for too long you can easily see the effects of the MPEG-4 compression...

...I guess a testament to how far DVD and MPEG-4 have come in the industry...

FYI,

DVDs utilize MPEG-2 compression, not MPEG-4.

[lyric]

Thanks for the replies folks.

Microhof: No insult taken. I'm guilty as charged -- this is my first time watching DVDs on my own bigscreen TV. When I noticed this blockiness my inclination was to blame the DVD mastering. However, it is cropping up on everything I view on the TV and these artifacts are not at all apparent when I view the same scenes on my laptop. So I am hesitant to chalk this up to the artifacts related to the video compression. The swaths of blockiness are quite large.

Your suggestion that the TV might be doing some additional processing on the DVI signal is a good one... leading me to believe I should solicit advice from the RPTV area.

Jim: I haven't been able to get my hands on AVIA or DVE yet. You're absolutely right -- I should attempt to use what tools I can. Since this appeared to be a gross tuning issue, I wanted to see if someone could rule out defective equipment. I didn't see these artifacts on the home theater sets I viewed when evaluating my purchase decisions.

The D2 shipped with brightness, contrast and color levels centered. I tweaked them a bit to see if they would impact the artifacts and they didn't have much effect. I decided to pursue my image calibrations on the TV rather than the player.

The TV settings are another matter -- Unfortunately I've broken it down to make room for a cabinet delivery that is arriving this morning so I have to reference these settings from memory. I found that I was able to minimize these artifacts by turning off the TV's black level enhancement and auto contrast features. I could still see the blockiness and I was left with poor black level performance and a gray, muddy display. It was more like I had obscured the artifacts with sub-optimal settings. I was able to fiddle with sharpness, contrast and color intensity settings to partially remedy the artifacts in some scenes, but only to enhances it in others. I did notice that the 50V500 disabled two color settings on the DVI input that are available for component inputs... A good question for the RPTV forum.

Jerry: sorry I sounded hesitant. 720P IS the native resolution for my TV. Hence I would expect the D2 to perform best when sending 720P information, which it does not. 1080i is completely unacceptable.

Thanks for the suggestions guys -- I've still got the problem and any further input is appreciated. Once I've got the furniture and have set everything up again I'll push on by trying to get my hands on a calibration disc and maybe looking at LOTR since folks seem to use that as a reference disc. SOunds like I should open this line of inquiry in the RPTV forum as well. Thanks for your time!

[microhof]

Originally posted by DHarp193
FYI,

DVDs utilize MPEG-2 compression, not MPEG-4.
Oh yeah. Hey, I just got out of bed. :eek:

[byellin]

Now that I have the Dtronis switch working with the D2, a new twist has come up. It just never ends, does it? This isn't really a D2 issue, but I figure it's the best place to get an answer since Bravo folks deal with DVI switches. So forgive the intrusion on the D2 thread. If anyone out there has the IR hex codes for any model of Pronto for a the Dtronics 2x1 DVI switch, please send me a Private Message with the codes and the model Pronto you are using. I can't get mine to learn the IR correctly. I know the Prono inside and out, and have even tried reengineering what it learns, but no dice. I only get one input to switch. Strange.


Thanks!!

[Jerry Pease]

Originally posted by byellin
Now that I have the Dtronis switch working with the D2, a new twist has come up. It just never ends, does it? This isn't really a D2 issue, but I figure it's the best place to get an answer since Bravo folks deal with DVI switches. So forgive the intrusion on the D2 thread. If anyone out there has the IR hex codes for any model of Pronto for a the Dtronics 2x1 DVI switch, please send me a Private Message with the codes and the model Pronto you are using. I can't get mine to learn the IR correctly. I know the Prono inside and out, and have even tried reengineering what it learns, but no dice. I only get one input to switch. Strange.


Thanks!!
by any chance did you see if they have the ccf on their web site. I can't remember which company but one of them had them for download. good luck!


PS: You might want to look over at www.remotecentral.com

[Jerry Pease]

Originally posted by lyric
Jerry: sorry I sounded hesitant. 720P IS the native resolution for my TV. Hence I would expect the D2 to perform best when sending 720P information, which it does not. 1080i is completely unacceptable.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but are you sure? some of those digital lcd rptv will say 720p but actually are not. you need to do a pixel to pixel mapping. I dont know anything about your model. Sorry.

[byellin]

Jerry,

Thanks.

I tried remotecentral already- first place I looked. Nothing.

I wrote to Dtronics, and they didn't have anything.

But all hope is not lost. WynsWrld98 has the codes and has graciously consented to sending them to me. He's a hero today!

[RezmeisterMorgan]

It is one of the few native 720 RP LCDs.

The links I read mentioned 1080p in a way that almost sounded like it may up-convert to 1080p. Could all incoming info(even 720) go to 1080p then down to 720?

They also mentioned red push and an accessible color decoder.

Morgan

[Dave Harper]

Hey guys, quick question.

I am trying to load the new firmware in the D2 tonight. I am having a hell of a time.

I tried a few times and finally got the unit to go to the "Firmware Loader" screen where it asks you to hit play to update or stop to abort.

I hit play, then got the following message which IS NOT in the instructions!!! (between step 8 and 9 in their .pdf instructions)

"You are going to erase some part of the bootloader area! A failure could damage your DVD player!!! Press <PLAY> to continue or <STOP> to skip!"

This messgae was with the exclamation points and all and it made me nervous to hit play, so I hit stop intead to abort and try again. Then I got this message, exactly as typed:

"Update (partly) failed! Power off your DVD player!"

So I turned it off to try again and haven't been able to get it to recognize this disc as a firmware disc and get into that message ever since.

It does give me a menu that says "Media Library" and lets me select things like AUDIO, VIDEO, PHOTO PICTURES and a PLAYLIST, but it won't boot as a Boot CD even though when I do the procedure EXACTLY as mentioned in the directions it first says "BOOT CD" on the display, then "LOADING", then it just goes to ISO CD on the front display and I get the orange menu as mentioned in the beginnning of this paragraph.

Yes, I did everything EXACTLY as described in the directions.

Any ideas:confused:???

[maxvengeance111]

Run the firmware again, and this time instead of thinking the world will come to an end, press play at the scene which is not in the directions and have it continue to load the new firmware. Then sit back and relax.

[maxvengeance111]

Whoops, didnt read the last part. Maybe make a new disc? I dont know. Call Vinc and see what they say. But people have already mentioned that screen and said it was ok to continue.

[tomrhyne]

Dave, about the only recommendation I can give you is to call tech support and see if they can help. I'm glad I didn't encounter problems with my upgrade. Good luck.

Tom
<><

[ReeseG]

Remember, you have to eject the drawer, turn the player off while the loader drawer is open, load the firmware disc into the tray and turn the unit on...in that order. If not, the screen you're getting will show up.

[microhof]

yes and first maybe unplug the player and plug it back in
then do exactly as the directions say
and then accept that screen - it's just a warning

[mandarax]

Just in case the world does come to an end... It was great discussing toys with you guys...

Robert

[Jim Noyd]

Robert-
Do you know something we don't?
or
Did you just see "Day After Tomorrow"?

[Dave Harper]

Guys,

Thanks for the tips. I did do the instructions exactly as described, including opening the drawer, etc. I also tried unplugging the player from the A/C with no dice. I am in the HT business, so I have done MANY FW updates on all types of eqpt, so I know what I am doing, but have never had this type of problem before. I think I may have a quirky unit:rolleyes: It does work great so far when watching movies. I just have the reset problem when totally powering down, so that's why I was attempting the FW upgrade.

The player just will not boot to the "Firmware Upgrade" screen anymore. I only get the "Media Library" screen/menu now, no matter what I do. I checked the firmware just to see if it did do the upgrade and I might have missed it, but it is still on FW 1.1.9.

I'll try to burn another disc and try again tonight. I'll keep you posted. Maybe the disc has some bad data and/or didn't burn fully or correctly?

[microhof]

Since my true nature is generally to be a jerk, I have to say this. Also, I am bored, and idle hands are the devil's playthings.

You have done so MANY types of firmware updates, yet seeing "You are going to erase some part of the bootloader area! A failure could damage your DVD player!!! Press <PLAY> to continue or <STOP> to skip!" made you crap your pants and back out?

[tomrhyne]

microhof, can't argue with your self assessment.

Tom
<><

[Dave Harper]

Originally posted by microhof
Since my true nature is generally to be a jerk, I have to say this. Also, I am bored, and idle hands are the devil's playthings.

You have done so MANY types of firmware updates, yet seeing "You are going to erase some part of the bootloader area! A failure could damage your DVD player!!! Press <PLAY> to continue or <STOP> to skip!" made you crap your pants and back out?

I never said I crapped my pants, I just said that a message like that was not in the instructions so I got nervous because I didn't want to have a paperweight on my hands instead of a DVD player, particularly with the track record of the Bravo DVD players.

Yes, you are a jerk, especially with comments like that. There is no room for that sh!t here, so take it somewhere else along with all 49 of your jerky posts:mad: This is not what this forum is all about. Please try to refrain from making an a$$ of yourself in the future. I have seen your kind around here before and it won't be long before you're thrown out anyway if you keep comments like that up.

I have helped way more people around here than you have posts, so try to show others a little respect.

Thank you:)

[microhof]

Uhhhhh, wait a minute Mr. High and Mighty small business owner...
At the risk of contributing to your likely assumption that this is developing into some sort of dramatic flame war in which you will participate until convinced you are reigning victorious, I just have to ask...

ALL 49 of my jerky posts? I don't think all 49 of them have been jerky. Probably just that last one, unless I was trying to be assertive toward V Inc. a couple times. :p

Seen my kind around here before? What, the kind who sits here trying to help out in one single forum about a DVD player that had a big group of followers anticipating it, without causing any trouble other than asking that one rhetorical question after you had to flaunt your MANY firmware installs as proof of your manhood? :p And if that wasn't enough now it's your number of posts, and a little smiley face after the thank you. I have seen your kind too. Nice job masking those swear words, nobody will ever know what it was that you may just as well have typed.

You're welcome! =p

[wyzeguy]

Microhof, you should be ashamed of yourself. Can't you tell from Mr. Harper's condescending, smug superiority, oh-so-stealthily concealed profanity and self-proclaimed ability to tell the right "kind" from riff-raff such as yourself that he deserves to be treated as a superior class of member?

I trust you will be suitably humbled and lie prostrate and in silent awe when you next encounter him!

[wittangamo]

Hate to interrupt a pissing match, but I have a question related to the original topic of this thread.

I may have missed it, but does the D2 feature aspect ratio control over DVI?

It's important to me because my soon-to-arrive Sammy DLP does not and I need to be able to display my academy-ratio classics and other 4:3 content (like the Sex in the City DVDs my wife is addicted to) in their OAR. Citizen Kane stretched would be a travesty, and nekkid women stretched is just plain scary.

[Jim Noyd]

Originally posted by wittangamo
I may have missed it, but does the D2 feature aspect ratio control over DVI?

It's important to me because my soon-to-arrive Sammy DLP does not and I need to be able to display my academy-ratio classics and other 4:3 content (like the Sex in the City DVDs my wife is addicted to) in their OAR. Citizen Kane stretched would be a travesty, and nekkid women stretched is just plain scary. The Bravo D1/D2 operate as such with 4:3 material-
If 4:3 content is mastered as 4:3 (non-anamorphic) it will display it with bars on all four sides. To display it in its proper aspect press ZOOM once and the bars will be eliminated top and bottom with the correct bars left and right.

If the 4:3 content is mastered in a correct 16:9 frame (anamorphic or enhanced for widescreen TVs) it will display the bars on left and right.

[mandarax]

Dave Harper... I had a customer in here looking at it the other day... I wiped out all input sources by mistake... had a problem initially by doing this as it would not respond... I tried a few things to get her going again.. actually tried out his JVC SX21 non HDCP compliant projector out on it to see if it would pass the signal... (which it did BTW) what I had to do after looking like a jerkwater for a full minute was pulled the power off the unit and start from scratch... only then would it work for me to go back in and set everything back up again... don't know if you tried this strategy yet ... I do this my PC in the odd occation through frustration. You do have to go back if the upgrade didnt take and hook up a composite again to get it all rolling again... but maybe the initialization file was corrupted and you can see if it can be fixed if this doesnt work ...

As entertaining as the Jerry Springer show is to some people ... I don't think that someone seeing a notice that concerned him warrants an attack. The verbiage as stated in the upgrade leaves much to be desired and trust me this isnt the only person that will abort with this message.. Having stated the message by the originator it is actually going to help people that would or may also abort and so its good information... Maybe the verbiage will be revised to better reflect action to be taken.. There is no stupid question or concern that any person has had here on the forum.. at least that I have read... People are comfortable asking any question and thats what makes it a great community... If people were uncomfortable because a jerk would likely attack them I don't think this forum would exist... or be as successful...as it would predominately only attract some flys.. answer with piling more crap piled on the existing crap... more flys.. .. lets stick to the meat of the thread and leave the crap out..

Robert

[wittangamo]

Thanks for the quick reply, Jim. Moved the Bravo up a notch on my short list.

[maxvengeance111]

I think I am partial to blame, I stated making fun of Dave Harper's reply on the firmware upgrade. I was just kidding though. I didnt intend for it to start a malicious trend of replies. So I am sorry if I started something. Microf you need to chill out a little. Arguing like this on the internet, where you cant see anyone that you are arguing with, is lame. You even started out saying you were a jerk for writing what you did. This is suppose to be a review of the D2 where people are asking questions or posting things they found out. So lets all just calm down and write questions or reviews of the D2. By the way, last night I rented a movie that was old and scratched to hell. I mean it was so bad I dont think any player could read it properly. The D2 was flawless and never skipped a beat. That made me extremely happy.

[Jim Noyd]

Thanks Max I know we have this confirmed at the factory side and via phone calls, but it is great to confirmation here on the forum.

Dave, I'll see if we can update the firmware instructions to include the screen and procedure to complete. Power disconnect should bring you back to initial default composite, etc.

[Dave Harper]

Originally posted by mandarax
...As entertaining as the Jerry Springer show is to some people ... I don't think that someone seeing a notice that concerned him warrants an attack. The verbiage as stated in the upgrade leaves much to be desired and trust me this isnt the only person that will abort with this message.. Having stated the message by the originator it is actually going to help people that would or may also abort and so its good information... Maybe the verbiage will be revised to better reflect action to be taken.. There is no stupid question or concern that any person has had here on the forum.. at least that I have read... People are comfortable asking any question and thats what makes it a great community... If people were uncomfortable because a jerk would likely attack them I don't think this forum would exist... or be as successful...as it would predominately only attract some flys.. answer with piling more crap piled on the existing crap... more flys.. .. lets stick to the meat of the thread and leave the crap out...

Robert

Robert,

Thanks for summing up what I was trying to say in a nice post. I just couldn't believe someone could reply like that with such a crude comment when someone else posts with a legitimate concern and is just looking for other's experiences and hopefully a solution. I will not endulge him with a response, he doesn't deserve one.

I am sorry for any comments I have made that may have offended others, it was not my intent except to let him know that what he was doing is not accepted here.

Jim, Robert,

Thanks for the helpful info:)!!!

maxvengeance111,

Apology accepted, but I don't think you started this. I took your comments as intended and found them humorous:p!!!

I will not comment further on the matter.

[microhof]

Originally posted by mandarax
There is no stupid question or concern that any person has had here on the forum.. at least that I have read... People are comfortable asking any question and thats what makes it a great community... If people were uncomfortable because a jerk would likely attack them I don't think this forum would exist...
I'm not going to take this any further than this one single point I am about to make, I promise.

He posted his question. We all jumped in to help him and tell him what we would do, etc. Then what is his response? To speak in a condescending way (albeit subtly but with a definite taste of superiority to his tone most easily noted by the capitalization of the word "many") telling us "thanks, I am master of firmware, I already tried all that." I can't help but wonder what amount of genius he expected to get from us on here besides what we said, so if he was going to flaunt his years of experience when none of us gave a satisfactory answer then I also have to wonder why he asked in the first place.

[maxvengeance111]

Who cares how he wrote it. This is the internet, and arguing over forums is a little ridiculous. Message tone can always be misunderstood. Like if someone ever read your posts micro, they would always think you are a jerk that likes to cause problems. But we know better on here. I am just kidding around, wasnt using a hint of condescension. Lets drop it without trying to get the last word in.

[WynsWrld98]

If a post isn't directly with sharing info about the D2 it should be taken to private messaging!!!!

[N8DOGG]

I just got my new d2 today, it cost me $400 cdn after shipping and conversion, I hope I dont have the settings loss as some people have had but i've burnt my firmware disk so I'm ready if it does. I am excited to get it home and try her out

[mandarax]

Well I had my first mishap with the units that arrived... seems that the seems like the belt came off and the plastic pulley that is on the bearing gear snapped off... No biggy will send in for replacement...

David let me know if powering down and resetting works... I always like to keep track of this sort of stuff...

Robert

[Dave Harper]

One thing I did notice, even though the firmware didn't update, is that now I no longer have the power down problem of losing my settings:confused: Maybe it had something to do with just entering the "BOOT" menu, then going back out??? Maybe it reset something in the unit?

[wsiler]

Update:
Well, it seems that a great portion of the debate rages on with this player. I had hoped that my experience with this company was coming to an end but it seems like I may be stuck dealing with them for another month or two at this rate. Perhaps those who remember my posts and the subsequent firestorm that ensued will remember that the final resolution was a promise from VINC that I would receive a Fedex label in the mail to return my player and that they would process my refund for me. Well, it has been two weeks and so far nothing has arrived in the mail. I still have my D2 sitting in my cabinet completely unusable. I can only hope that they are as good as their word but the level of service has been lacking to date. I guess I will have to give it another 2 weeks to make absolutely sure that nothing is coming in the mail. You would think that they would process this a little faster but then again it is obvious that I ruffled some feathers at VINC.

To those who will probably complain about my post. Customer service is just as important as how your player works. I am happy that your player works so go enjoy it. Mine doesn't so I have to spend all this time chasing up VINC to get resolution for the problem. When the customer has to do all the follow up with the company, the level of customer service is definitely below par. In my estimation, VINCs customer service is sitting off in a sandtrap somewhere trying to figure out how to drive out of the bunker using a putter. In other words, it is weak. Maybe you have had better experiences with it but I certainly have not.

Has anyone successfully completed the RMA process yet? How long did it take start to finish. I need a baseline measurement I think....

[thebland]

Sorry about oyur problems, Wsiler....

Despite that, I just bought one as an interim solution until the Denon 5910 arrives.

I notice all this firmware upgrade threads. IN case my model does NOT have the latest firmware and I need to up date:

1. Where do I get the latest D2 firmware from???

2. How is it installed?

Thanks!

Jeff

[thebland]

Sorry about your problems, Wsiler....

Despite that, I just bought one as an interim solution until the Denon 5910 arrives.

I notice all these D2 firmware upgrade threads. In case my model does NOT have the latest firmware and I need to up date:

1. Where do I get the latest D2 firmware from???

2. How is it installed?

Thanks!

Jeff

[Dave Harper]

Here is the download page and instructions are included:

http://www.vinc.com/download/v_d2-06-16-04.zip

Good luck:)!!!

[thebland]

Originally posted by DHarp193
Be careful Jeff, microhof may come in and make some asinine remark about you asking such paltry questions in his presence;)!!!

Here is the download page and instructions are included:

http://www.vinc.com/download/v_d2-06-16-04.zip

Good luck:)!!!

Well the D2 is for use on my new Qualia:D:D.........

Thanks!

[Dave Harper]

You dog:D!!! Tell us how that puppy performs with the Qualia when you get it going please.

Did ya have to mortgage the house for that thing or what:eek:

[thebland]

I have a very loving and understanding wife (who is also an enthusiast)....

[thebland]

Dave,

I have a very loving and understanding wife (who is also an enthusiast)....It was a joint decision and I will post results (probably on the >$3500 Digital Projector forum on my current thread - below).

I'll have the D2 on Wednesday and calibration starts that night through Thursday....We may get to do a HTPC / D2 mini shoot out...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=416765

[thebland]

ONe last thing regarding the firmware install...

The PDF says that the software should be burned to an ISO Image CD of the Firmware.

What does this mean??

Thanks!!!

[Dave Harper]

Jeff,

An ISO image is, for lack of a better word, an "Image" of all the contents on a CD, but compressed together for downloading. Just download the file, then use a program like this one:

http://www.burnatonce.com/downloads

to burn it the right way on a CD-R. If you use this program, it will do it the way you need it for the update. Some other burning software has the ability to do the ISO correctly, but don't seem as reliable as this one.

[thebland]

Dave,

You have been very kind...I am not the most savvy computer guy, but I have downloaded the burnaonce......Is it pretty idiot proof or are there some selections I should make once I get started??

Thanks!!

[Dave Harper]

I did it, so it's pretty idiot proof:D!!! Just make sure, if you have more than one burner as I do, to select the right one you're using.

[Jim Noyd]

Originally posted by wsiler
Update:
Well, it seems that a great portion of the debate rages on with this player. I had hoped that my experience with this company was coming to an end but it seems like I may be stuck dealing with them for another month or two at this rate. Perhaps those who remember my posts and the subsequent firestorm that ensued will remember that the final resolution was a promise from VINC that I would receive a Fedex label in the mail to return my player and that they would process my refund for me. Well, it has been two weeks and so far nothing has arrived in the mail.
Please send a pm to me with your email and original invoice # and I'll track your RMA for you.

[mandarax]

Jeff... If you get a line on one of those sony robots that were at CES let me know ... I need some dance lessons... take a look at the specs for the upcoming Onkyo SP1000 for that Qualia ...

Mated to some good projectors so far the pic has looked incredulous for what is paid for it... Everything looks very natural, stunning.. I still shake my head at the pic..



Robert

[thebland]

Originally posted by mandarax
Jeff... If you get a line on one of those sony robots that were at CES let me know ... I need some dance lessons... take a look at the specs for the upcoming Onkyo SP1000 for that Qualia ...

Mated to some good projectors so far the pic has looked incredulous for what is paid for it... Everything looks very natural, stunning.. I still shake my head at the pic..



Robert

Tell me, I have read bits and pieces about the Onkyo and Integra players...When are they coming out and what is their story?

Any players that will upconvert to 1080P24sF?? :D

[oleus]

well, i just got finished setting up my new D2 - MAJOR problems.

at first it was having trouble recognizing dvds....that seems to have stoped (for now), and once i finally set up the DVI connection, i can only play one dvd without having to turn off the power off at the remote and try again. if i stop a dvd or eject it, i can't get back to the menu screen - it goes to a blank screen and while i can hear sound if i put another dvd in, i have to turn the power off and back on to see any sort of picture. even then, at that point, about half the time i get serious distortion over the dvi connection (i confirmed it's not my dvi cable by testing it on my HD cable box).

i want this thing to work properly so badly because the picture looked great with dvi, but the thing is a mess!!

[Jim Noyd]

oleus-
Sounds like a DOA if it happens on a new/clean DVD, send an email to tech supp for an RMA exchange.

[oleus]

i guess it's not something that the firmware could take care of?

it seems to be handling discs ok now, it's just that once i "stop" or "eject" a dvd, the dvi doesn't seem to want to output anything without turning it back off and on again. the sound is still outputting i just get no picture.

after reading about all these problems and getting an apparently DOA unit today, i really don't even want a replacement. if these things are so bad out of the box i don't see how getting a replacement from VINC is going to do me any good. the retailer i bought it from is saying i have to go through VINC though...no refund.

i'm going to re-read this thread...i seem to remember someone opening up their D2 and fixing some problems themselves pretty easily. i'd almost rather do that than get another unit from this junk company. i guess you get what you pay for.......

[byellin]

oleus,

I am not sure this is a DOA. I think there is a firmware bug in the D2 that is triggered by some setups. I have the same stop and eject problem. I fixed it by shortening the cable length. Do you ever see the blue message box that says the DVD will resume from last position? It appears to fail in the vicinity of putting this out. Does it also fail immediately after setting the output to DVI from the SETUP screen as well? Sometimes I lose the image, sometimes it is really distorted.

How long is your DVI cable? What display device are you using?

[Jim Noyd]

The only other person here who's had a problem is wsiley.

[byellin]

Jim,

I respectfully beg to differ. I have the STOP/EJECT problem, oleus has the problem, and Karl Freund has the problem as well. Now, I will concede that it is probably triggered by something we share in common in our HT setups. But, the D2 should not react with a firmware glitch as it does. An error message is appropriate, or some other default display. Dropping the DVI output or mangling it under these "soft" conditions, whatever they are, is not the type of failure any DVD player should exhibit. There IS a bug. The bug is related to a condition on the DVI link. Luckily, it does not appear to affect to many of us. Vinc is aware of this problem and has been working to fix it.

[oleus]

jim -

i guess i remembered wrong, before i bought this unit i was roaming this thread and could have sworn there were a lot of reported failures. but maybe it's not DOA, as byellin indicates.

byellin -

i am running a 30' dvi cable to my projector (InFocus 7200). it's a (supposedly) very high quality cable made by InFocus, so if it's the cable length that's the problem I'm out of luck since there is no way to run shorter cable to my projector. the cable is working flawlessly from my HD PVR....if the D2 can't handle outputting through long runs i'll have to just return it.

What you are describing is exactly the problem i'm having - when i stop a dvd it say "cannot resume from this point" - then the screen goes blank. it's still outputting sound though.

about 10% of the time after i power it back up from the remote (since powering off from the unit causes a loss of my settings), i get a very junky snowy image.

byellin, have you installed the firmware cd download mentioned later in this thread? did it help? i haven't had a chance to do this yet. i want to make this work since the picture looked good (even before tweaking the settings), however i'm not sure if it looked any better than my panasonic rp91 via component. again these are just my initial impressions.....i need to get it working right before i go into the dvi settings and tweak anything.

[ReeseG]

Originally posted by Jim Noyd
The only other person here who's had a problem is wsiley.

WRONG... there are plenty of us who have had numerous problems with this player. I encourage everyone who's thinking about buying to see my review on Gearviews Making a statement like that is purely PR spin.

[Jim Noyd]

Originally posted by ReeseG
WRONG... there are plenty of us who have had numerous problems with this player. I encourage everyone who's thinking about buying to see my review on Gearviews Making a statement like that is purely PR spin. Sorry, ReeseG I was talking about this thread. byellin, I spoke to Greg Rogers of WSR and he has a Bravo D2 and will be testing a bunch of DVI switches with various sources. I discussed the issues you're seeing with the D2 losing picture on STOP, etc. and he will probably have an explaination. DVI switching isn't as straight forward as we initially believed. What display do you have? It isn't listed in your avs profile.

[oleus]

i just now saw Jim's signature - now i feel silly for clarifying my earlier statement about widespread issues, especially after re-reading this thread.

it reads to me like its almost 50/50 in terms of people who have faulty units and those who don't. and it's VERY discouraging that someone from VINC would make a statement like that denying it, that obviously shows a lack of responsibility on their part to fess up to the problems with this unit - a unit with TONS of potential that just isn't working properly for a lot of us who chose to take a chance on it, even at the low price.

it sounds to me like the problems byellin and I are having are compatibility issues with cable lengths and/or projectors. i am already anticipating problems getting this resolved or getting a refund since they might not consider this a defect (even though it SHOULD be working with a long cable run, especially with quality cable).

[oleus]

Jim -

i am having the same problem with stop/eject totally dropping the DVI signal, and i am not using any kind of switcher. it's going straight to my projector.

i tested the same cable with my HD cable box and it's working flawelessly there.

[Jim Noyd]

Originally posted by oleus
Jim -

i am having the same problem with stop/eject totally dropping the DVI signal, and i am not using any kind of switcher. it's going straight to my projector.

i tested the same cable with my HD cable box and it's working flawelessly there. So with the same cable and your HD cable box play with DVI, while still connected power off the HD box wait a few seconds and turn it back on. Let us know the outcome.

[oleus]

jim - i am not sure i understood exactly what you were suggesting i do, but i went and powered off my comcast HD pvr (with the dvi cable connected), and powered back on. everything was fine. let me know if i misunderstood your suggestion.

the DVI connection to my projector is working fine except when i plug it into the D2 and stop or eject a dvd. then i lost all video output from the D2 (but not audio).

and there is no switcher inbetween FYI.

[byellin]

Jim,

I've got an NEC HT1000. The D2 works when there are 6 meter cables on either side of the switch. With a 10 meter or a 50 footer on the output side of a Dtronics or Gefen switch, the D2 fails. If the output cable is removed, or if it is shortened, the D2 does not fail. I have sent extensive data on the problem to Vinc, and they are analyzing it.

Oleus,

I am willing to bet your unit is working as programmed. The firmware upgrade should keep the D2 from losing its settings when you cycle off and on to get the DVI picture back. It will not fix the loss of signal at STOP/EJECT. Sometimes, when the error occurs, the player locks up and won't respond to the front buttons or the remote. You can get it to come alive by pulling the DVI cable off the back and powering it down and up. You then get the "Hello" message. After extensive testing, I am convinced that the bug relates to a unique sensing condition at the DVI port on back of the D2.

[byellin]

Oleus,

I tested my setup with a Denon 5900 on loan - no problems. I run the same long cable length setup with my Sony HD300 - again, never a problem. The D2 is being consistently forced down a logic path that it shouldn't be on. I am sure that they are going to be able to find this bug and fix it with firmware.

[Jim Noyd]

Thanks for the update byellin, the firmware update PDF at vinc.com/support for the Bravo D2 has been updated to show you should proceed when the warning screen appears.

We'll get to the root of the long-throw/DVI switch issue as well.

[oleus]

Jim -

that would be great if this issue could be resolved. keep us posted. i guess this means i probably shouldn't send it back?

[oleus]

from another thread :

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jim Noyd
How long is your DVI throw to the projector from the D2 and the 4x1 switch?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hi Jim,

I'm using a 9 M BetterCables DVI cable with the Digital Connection adapter to go from the projector to the switch. Then I'm using a 1 M DVI cable from Ultralink to go from the switch to the Bravo D2.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


so -

if VINC doesn't provide another firmware update for people like me who are having the same stop/eject problem that Byellin is having - am i going to have to buy new cables similar to the setup mentioned above? might that help things?

i just got the cable i'm using from infocus. i can return it and try something else, ANYTHING that will cure this problem. i DO need a switcher anyway, would adding the "right" one cure this ill?

[Jim Noyd]

A 9-meter Digital connection adapter is in line from the PJ to the switch where you have the 10-meter Infocus DVI adapter and a very short 1-meter high performance DVI cable to the Bravo D2. Plus he has the 4x1 vs. 2x1 switch.

[oleus]

well, again, i have NO switch and i'm having that eject/stop problem. i'm running the 30' infocus dvi cable straight from the PJ to the D2.

i'm trying to figure out if ADDING a switch or changing to that Digital Connection cable would help. I don't think I'm going to resort to that, however, since i know for a fact there is nothing "wrong" with the cable after hours of use with my HD box in 720p and 1080i.

if it's a compatability issue with my particular infocus cable, i'd still be inclined to return the D2 instead of changing my whole setup unless i knew 100% that it would remedy this issue.

[oleus]

plus, having to change my cable setup would assume it's my Infocus cable that's the problem. however, isn't BYellin using a totally different cable setup and projector situation than i am?

[byellin]

Oleus,

Different cable, different setup, different projector. It is NOT the cable. The long cable is triggering a normally innocuous condition at the DVI port at the D2 that messes up the firmware program. I have tested this with many cables in many configurations. Cables that work fine on other equipment fail on the D2. Just to be safe, let Vinc know you have the problem within the 30 day period.

[oleus]

i'm calling VINC this afternoon to let them know about my problem.

[oleus]

PS - i just tried installing the firmware and my player refuses to go to the boot screen - only the media menu screen. it's definitely burned right...it's an ISO image of the firmware....followed the directions exactly - but nothing but the regular media manager page. argh....

[Dave Harper]

That's the same problem I had. It did work one time out of many though, you may want to keep trying.

[oleus]

DHarp -

was there anything special you did when you finally got it to work? i'm already burning a 2nd cd to try later on.

[Dave Harper]

Nope, nothing special. I just kept doing the procedure as called for in the instructions, then I finally got the boot screen:confused:

I would also try using the burnatonce ISO recording software as mentioned in a previous post, if you aren't using that already.

[oleus]

well, finally talked to someone at tech support and explained myproblemw ith loss of DVI signal after stopping or ejecting.

they told me to install the new firmware (which i still can't do on my third attempt at burning it.....it always gives me the media page)...i tried telling them it was some compatibility with the length of the cable but they disagreed and wanted meto give them my s/n in an email for a replacement.

that is fine, but Byellin is on his second unit with the same problem and the latest firmware upgrade. Seems like Bravo is wasting a player on this one since it's highly likely the second unit will do the same thing.

anyway, i'm glad this thing only cost $200.

[RamzeVA]

Im upset, I bought the Bravo D2 to use with my Infocus 4805 projector as well and it works fine with the M1 DVI cable which is only 6 feet, but I need 25 FT and the 20 FT extenion I was using on my PC which worked fine will not work with this player, I can see this is a common problem but I sure would like to know how to fix it.... and hope VInc fixes this issue real soon, DVI cables are not cheap to be wasting.

And im using the latest firmware...

[oleus]

i think it's about time we forward this thread to VINC.

the tech support guy i talked to refused to believe that the long cable run was the problem, but it's obvious that normal projector cable runs (20 feet etc.) are not being handled correctly by the VINC.

all i want is assurance they're working on it and that there will be a firmware update. it's useless to send back my player like they're asking me to.

[RamzeVA]

noone has had a 20' or more cable work? do I need to get a monster dvi cable?

[Rijax]

I know that I've read In Arun Gupta's DVI, HDMI and HDCP – a Practical Guide (http://www.digiupdate.com/G002_DVI_HDMI_and_HDCP.html#_Toc64160511) and elsewhere, that running a DVI cable over 5 meters in length can lead to problems.

[oleus]

well the same cable running from my Comcast HD cable box works flawlessly without a hiccup, so there's really no reason it shouldn't work with the D2.

on another note, now i can't even get ANY dvd to work properly with the DVI output. it's no longer the stop/eject problem...when i can get a picture, it's all shaky and distorted. argh. at least i finally got the firmware installation to work. i just can't watch dvd's on it. wonder why it was "working" yesterday and not today?

i really just want a refund and to wash my hands of this product, i'm going to get a samsung upconverting dvd with dvi for the time being and replace it when the time comes that a better player comes out with dvi/sacd and dvd-a. or just get a better dvi dvd player and keep the samsung for sacd and dvd-a.....i know the samsungs have some problems with black levels, but i would imagine it will work with my setup.

[RamzeVA]

this is making me sad, I really love this dvd player and want it to simply work using extended DVI cable, if I have to use component I would of just bought a Phillips 642..

I tried my cables2go 6 FT DVI-D cable and it worked fine hooked up to my Sony TV as well, so lenght is all the problem I suppose, I also tried 10 FT + M1 DVI 6 FT together for a total of 16 FT and it failed to work as well.

Has anyone tried an long monster type DVI cable with this? I will try 25 FT on my Sony TV instead of 4805 projector later.

[oleus]

well, i'll keep checking up on this forum to see if there's any progress made on the long-dvi-cable run problem.

for now, i'm going back to my Panasonic Rp91 which looked fantastic via component, and i'll use the DVI cable exclusively for my comcast hd dvr.

if i ever get a return authorization from VINC for a refund i'll send it back, but until then i'm going to use the D2 on my upstairs tube HDTV via component which hopefully should work....it seemed to scale ok from what i could tell, which is why had the panasonic rp91 up there in the first place (that tv locks into full mode with a progressive signal).

if i hear about a firmware upgrade i'll reconsider using this as my primary.

-sean

[jdmoser]

I don't have any experience with "long run" issues but would this item help? (albeit expensive)

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2195

[oleus]

if i thought that might help i'd buy it, but it's not worth the $250 gamble for me at this point.

i'm not sure it would work anyway since some gefen switches aren't working with the D2 even on shorter runs, and this extender solution would actually EXTEND my run my 6 feet.

all i want is for VINC to acknowledge the problem that BYellin, Me, and at least 2 other people have been reporting.

my D2's dvi output doesn't seem to be working at all anymore, so i don't know what the deal is. like i said i'm going to cut my losses and use the component outputs in another room and hope it performs decently as a scaling progressive scan player. if its dvi picture was so good (which i thought it certainly was when it was working) i would expect the component picture to at least be abive average.

[jdmoser]

I was just postulating that it might be an intermittent hardware issue in the Bravo D2 with either a weak DVI transmitter or receiver.

[oleus]

weak dvi transmitter is what i would GUESS.... but at this point who knows. do you think that gefen box might help a weak dvi transmitter? does it actually amplify the signal?

[maxvengeance111]

I have a bettercables dvi and mine is only 2 meters but it says on the website that they can run up to 9 meters.

[oleus]

yeah i was thinking of getting that bettercables 9m cable and using it with the digital connection adapter (since it seemed to work for at least one user), thing is it's an expensive gamble.

if VINC insists on replacing my D2 instead of refunding me, i might try it.

[Huskerfan]

I caught the tail end of this thread about long dvi runs. I got mine (30 feet) from bluejeanscable.com and it works great for my Samsung 841. They say they tested many cables and found this to never fail and they have a money back guarentee. And, no, I am in no way affiliated with them. Just a happy customer.

[oleus]

huskerfan -

i'm sure that's a great cable and that's cool that it works for your samsung....the problem here is that most cable runs of 30' will not work properly with the DVD player we're discussing.

[thebland]

Received mine today. Firmware was 1.1.9. Downloaded the latest firmware and loaded it (thanks DHarp). Hooked it up to my projector and 1080i looks fantastic. I am using a 3 M DVI cable.

....so far so good.

[oleus]

maybe i should just move the dvd player 3 meters away from my projector :-)

[vlapietra]

Originally posted by oleus
my D2's dvi output doesn't seem to be working at all anymore, so i don't know what the deal is. like i said i'm going to cut my losses and use the component outputs in another room and hope it performs decently as a scaling progressive scan player. if its dvi picture was so good (which i thought it certainly was when it was working) i would expect the component picture to at least be abive average.
Unfortunately the D1, while excellent via DVI, was notoriously bad via component. Hopefully they improved it on the D2.

[Apple Dude]

Got my D2 yesterday, upgraded it to 1.1.10 firmware and hooked up. I was using the Samsung 931 and I like the picture MUCH better on the D2. The scaler does seem a tiny bit softer, but the amount of noise in the 931 signal was just so distracting that I had a hard tiime watching a film all the way through because I kept noticing it. Too grainy and digital looking by comparison. It also made me angry that the 931 crushed blacks so much that night and dark scenes just vanished. My set is ISF calibrated and I am using the same DVI cable that came with the 931, just for comparison's sake. I am much, much happier with the D2 in every respect.

Discs that would hiccup on the 931 play without problem on the D2. I have many backups, since I have 4 kids ages 7 and under that love to watch DVDs, but don't always treat them right. Many of my backups had pauses and freezes on the 931. The Samsung is going back to the store on Friday.

[byellin]

vlapietra,

I'm guessing the lack of DVI signal is a firmware issue. Try removing the DVI cable from the back of the D2, and powering off and on. Then hook up the cable again. I'll bet the DVI signal comes back. If that doesn't work, flash the firmware. You shouldn't have to resort to component level outputs on a player you purchased for DVI. Out of curiosity, how long is your cable?

[maxvengeance111]

yeah i was thinking of getting that bettercables 9m cable and using it with the digital connection adapter (since it seemed to work for at least one user), thing is it's an expensive gamble.




Its not a gamble. Bettercables has like a 30 day money back satisfaction thing. So if it doesnt work, you can send it back.

[ReeseG]

I can confirm that the Bettercables 9M does indeed work with the D2 and with the Geffen switch to my IF7200.

YMMV

[vlapietra]

byellin,
I don't have a D2. I was responding to oleus' comment about using his D2 for component output only. The D1 has very bad component out, the D2 might be the same.

[byellin]

vlapietra,

Ooops! The comment was meant for oleus.

[Jim Noyd]

Bravo D2 component video output has been improved significantly over the D1.

[oleus]

i might have to give the 9M bettercables a try. and if i use a switcher - it has to be the 4x1 gefen, right? i am still within the return period for my Infocus cable (minus a restocking fee since i've used it) so I guess it couldn't hurt.

[ReeseG]

Oleus,

I used the 2X1 Geffen with no issues.

[Rijax]

Originally posted by ReeseG
I used the 2X1 Geffen with no issues. And you've got a 9M (29.25 ft.) cable run from the switch to your projector? WOW! That sorta blows up some theories I've been reading about. How big a cable run from your sources to the switch?

[ReeseG]

I'm using a standard 2 meter Dual Link DVI that came with the SONY HD200 HDTV box for the Bravo and another standard 2 meter DVI that I got from VOOM for the HD box.

I can't explain why some are having problems and some aren't...all I can say is that when it was setup, it was working fine.

I removed the D2 and went back to the D1. Switch is still working fine.

[Rijax]

Well I give up! Now I haven't got the foggiest idea what the heck is going on. I'm one of the lucky ones. My D2 has performed flawlessly. Not a slow-to-load disk, not a hiccup, not a glitch, not a dropped setting, nada, zip, zero, zilch. I've been thinking about getting the Gefen 2x1, but was hesitant because of the problems some have been having with them when used with the D2. I'm encouraged by your experience. Hmmmm? :rolleyes:

[oleus]

i'm ordering some 9m bettercables as we speak. whenever they arrive i'll post my results.

if those cables end up working, then i'll worry about a switch.

PS - totally unrelated, but my HD cable box looks AMAZING via DVI. since i really haven't had a chance to watch many dvd's via dvo on the D2, i'm eager to see how much of a jump in quality there is. my panasonic rp91 is a tough cookie to beat, if you ask me.

[RamzeVA]

yes please let us know oleus, I packed my Bravo D2 back up since its useless to me without being able to use 25' of DVI cable....

[byellin]

Folks,

I know that I have been making a lot of fuss about the D2 firmware bugs associated somehow with cable length and/or switches in some configurations. The simple fact is that we don't yet know for sure what the problem is. All we know is that is SOME, but not all, home theater setups involving long cables, the DVI signal is predictably compromised (non-existent or mutilated). No one should base a buying decision on the assumption that a long cable alone will cause their D2 to malfunction. The D2 represents a great value given the PQ. Yes, I want Vinc to acknowledge and fix the problem. But I also think that the D2 should not be dismissed out of hand based on the fact that it might fail in a particular home theater. There appear to be a lot more working environments with long cables than failed ones. Odds seem to favor that the D2 will work, even with switches and long cables. I would advise anyone interested in the D2 to try it out first. From what I have seen, with the settings issue resolved in the most recent firmware, Vinc has made progress in quality with this model over the D1. I am hopeful they will fix this particular problem as well.

[mandarax]

I am running longer cables on my demo unit... Only one problem so far... Everyone seems tickled ...

Customers that are running long cables... are using BetterCables..(note they do not make their own DVI cable... but one is running a 9 meter ...
One is running a 7 meter Gefen
One a 9 meter Gefen
One a 9 meter JPS labs
One is running a 5 meter Ultralink

So there seems to be plenty out there that are running different cables..

Monster Cable... I am assuming the person that wrote that was just joking... this is just a marketing company ... their cables are below average at best..

The Onkyo SP1000 unit will not be in the same price point .... actually multiply by 10.. looking at August...

I have to say that the image on the BenQ 8700+, the Epson 500, and some other native HD projectors looks splendid.. Best eye candy for the money yet...

[mallu2u]

mandarax: Which company's audio and video cables do u use for connecting your DVDs, Receivers and TV, etc? Just curious after ur post.

[oleus]

does anyone know what kind of quality "insides" Infocus uses in their products?

they sure charge enough for them but if they're not top-notch like Bettercables, that might be the cuplrit in my setup.....

[Extremephono]

Please take the comment with a pinch of salt given who I am. Coming from the consumer video and had developed the very first multimedia digital video encoder in 90's (even worked with Sigma back then for a reference board) from ground up, here're my comment.

1. DVI cable length - Proper DVI signal should go well up to 6-meter, 10-meter is perfectly fine with a generic DVI cable connected with Momitsu V880. The fact that at 10-meter the DVI cable becomes so sensitive means that the original DVI signal has signals near the edge of allowable error margins, so a slight 'sensitivity' pushes it out of the 'acquisition window' of the DVI-receiver. If your PC's DVI output works fine at 10-meter, but not D2, then D2 is at fault, no excuse. Only exception may be Sanyo Z2, which I believe the earlier FW caused the Z2 to have a very narrow DVI window.

Originally posted by byellin
Different cable, different setup, different projector. It is NOT the cable. The long cable is triggering a normally innocuous condition at the DVI port at the D2 that messes up the firmware program. I have tested this with many cables in many configurations. Cables that work fine on other equipment fail on the D2. Just to be safe, let Vinc know you have the problem within the 30 day period.

This condition is that there are so many high speed digital grounds on the DVI data connection. Not all the grounds are at the same level, hence part of the system may not reset/or get trigger into undefined state due to random and fuzzy grounds.

2. There should be no correlation DVI signal can be fixed by FW. The DVI signal is generated by the Silicon Image chip. There is very likely a circuit issue or layout issue, at 350Mhz, this is not rocket science, but not high-school math either.

3. In many instances, Bravo D2 were incorrectly said to have the 'latest Sigma Chip', it uses the very same EM8500 first showed up in the first Momitsu V880 and D1 back in 2003.

I do not have a D2, and the comment are just based on generic knowledge and my own experience.

[byellin]

Extremephono,

A voice of reason. Thanks for the explanation. Again, take my comments with a few grains of salt as well as I am a software geek, not a hardware geek by trade. You appear much more knowledgable in this area than I am. Tell me what you think of this:

It's highly possible that the signal is getting corrupted prior to the chip. Since the firmware is responsible for routing and bridging the gap between the DVD reader and the output generator (the chip), there is ample opportunity for firmware to get in the middle and screw things up. It is the firmware that decides which output circuits to activate, and for routing the signal. Anything in the signal path between the laser and the DVI port could be the culprit. I believe that when the Sigma chip is properly fed, that the DVI signal is both properly generated and transmitted. Therefore, as observed, when the player is in PLAY mode the signal is just fine at the PJ, and the image is great. Once the correct data stream is being transmitted to the sigma chip, all is well. I have a number of reasons for suspecting the signal corruption theory - 1) the condition is triggered by a command consistently (STOP and EJECT - and the generation of a message on the screen - a firmware function), it is not intermittent by any means, 2) the picture that is generated is sometimes garbled, sometimes absent under the same conditions - given a correct data stream I think it highly unlikely that the chip will generate a bad image, even more unlikely that given the same data stream a different image would come out, a bad input signal is more likely the culprit, 3) after the failure occurs the D2 does not respond to commands on the front panel or remote properly - it locks up - (a firmware function), and 4) the condition is rectified by removing the cable from the DVI port and recycling the system (thus causing a firmware boot in a "no cable" condition).

Am I just trying to convince myself that my unit can be fixed with a firmware upgrade. or does this make some sense?

Until we have a definitive answer from Vinc design engineers, folks that have this problem (very few people) that are hunting for the "right cable"are taking a risk of spending more money than they need to . Odds are good that they will end up in the same place.

So, Vinc, lets get cracking! No working 9 to 5. Nights and weekends for the engineers. Big bonuses for the people that solve this one :) .

[thebland]

I am still tweaking my D2 player but am finding that it a solid, mediochre performer. THe scaling and deinterlacing are sub par. As I bought it as an interim player, it will suffice for now until a get a reference quality player and / or scaler.

It is a $250 player and plays like one. Too bad...I had higher hopes.

[oleus]

well whenevr i get my replacement VINC (and when it presumably fails to correctly output DVI on my setup) i hope the vinc techs take a serious look at the quality of their DVI output.

i'm still going to give BetterCables a try to see what happens though.

[Donb01]

Well, it certainly was nice spending the last 2 hours reading this thread, seeing as I got my D2 on 7/1. All kinds of emotions drifted through my mind, wondering if I did the right thing.

I am one of those people who studies the hell out of soemthing beofre I buy it - how I missed this thread is just amazing... anyway, I bought the D2 so I could have DVI out to a BenQ 8700+ projector I am planning to buy next week.

I purchased a 10M cable right from V, and I won't know how it performs until I get the projector.

I actually had found and downloaded the firmware update before I ever bought the D2. I played a few movies in it before finally getting around to installing the update tonight, after about the 3rd time of forgetting not to shut the power off on the unit. Fortunately for me at this point, having it only hooked to the TV in S-Video mode, all I had to reset was the audio settings.

When I got the unit my contrast was in the middle of the scale, The first movie I watched had the normal black bars, but there was a good deal of grey outside of them. After playing for a while and discovering the contrast control, I clicked it up one notch and that dropped the grey right back to black where I wanted it.

Being supportive of Mr. Home Theater guy on the flash upgrade, I too have done many of them. I did stop and check the firmware version that was already there to be sure I needed to do anything and then proceeded. When the warning showed up on the screen it had exactly the effect they problably wanted.... I paused, thought about what I was doing, thought "Standard Disclaimer", gave it the official "FI" and proceeded. Everything went normally, and I power cycled the unit as I was told (maybe for 30 sec). Then I headed off for some fast food, got home, tossed in a DVD and THEN **** my pants when I experienced the "No CD" problem everyone else was grumbling about no matter what DVD I put in the unit - even ones that had played before. Cussing because my food was getting cold, I shut it off, flipped on DTV and proceeded to watch whatever crap was on while I ate and was cranky because I was gonna have to send the damn thing back for something as stupid as screwing up a firmware update. After 5 minutes, still in disbelief, especially since I got a success message, I turned it back on, dropped in another disk and it took right off. Apparently 30 secons was not enough of a power cycle after I did the upgrade - or something - but it works again.

Of course I too have the opportunity to be pissed off becuse the remote control crosses signals with my Pioneer receiver. I think only one other time in my life I have had remote conflicts, and as far as I can recall those were buttons I never used so I didn't care. This is a lot of the buttons. I'm not going to let it stop me at the moment, but I am quite irritated because I placed my equipment at 45 deg. opposing angles to each other so I can prevent each remote's signal cone from affecting the other device - it looks STUPID up there on the shelf. I might come up with some other port blocking scheme later, but for now this is it. I know my girlfriend isn't going to "get it" and this will be a constant source of irritation. One could think a firmware upgrade would resolve the issue, but I doubt it is that simple. They could change the signals the unit responds to, but there is no way to flash the remote so that would end up being a major PITA to fix. Ultimately I suppose it will be an excuse to upgrade my receiver to something newer, but I'm going to have to pay off the projector and then the screen, so it's gonna be next year before that happens - and there really is no other reason to ditch the receiver.

I guess anything is better than what I had - a $350 JVC DVD player that I bought because I had trouble believing something cheaper would do a good job, and all it will play is straight "pressed" DVDs and CD's - no other DVD formats or CD video or anything.

One thing I did note in the FAQ's for the D2 was that "DVD Audio" was listed as a format this player did not support. I asked one of their techs before purchasing it, as I had several DVD Audio disks, such as Metallica's black album, and I wanted to know if those would play. I was told they would not. So far all of them have played without any problem. They are specifically branded as "DVD Audio" and the cases are the same size as CD cases. The only video on them is the song title while they are playing - I am not sure if that makes any difference or not, but they seem to play fine.

I also noticed some of you have got the DVD +RW/-RW disks to work, and those are also not on the approved list. I haven't messed with those yet so I don't know. Are you burning them in ISO 9006 format, Joliet, or what? If someone can document which format they are burning their disks in that would be great.

[Jim Noyd]

Donb01-
Glad the D2 is performing well.

As far as contrast and brightness settings-if you have a copy of DVE or Avia run the grayscale ramps and pluge pattern and adjust the settings on the PJ side.

The DVD-Audio you're playing is probably the 2-channel PCM or DD bitstream. To get the hit bit-rate MLP 5.1 DVD-Audio the player would have to output it on 6 discrete analog audio outputs or 1394 to your preamp/processor.

[WynsWrld98]

I have a D1 that I'm using with a Dtronics 2x1 switcher with 10m Lindy DVI cable going from the D1 to the projector and 2m cheap DVI cable from D1 to Dtronics switcher and am having no problems of any kind.

So I wonder what was changed in the D2 vs. D1 that causes this same type of long run not to work????

[Cricricri]

Originally posted by thebland
I am still tweaking my D2 player but am finding that it a solid, mediochre performer. THe scaling and deinterlacing are sub par. As I bought it as an interim player, it will suffice for now until a get a reference quality player and / or scaler.

It is a $250 player and plays like one. Too bad...I had higher hopes.

In a previous post, you were claiming the 1080i looked fantastic but you're now obviously in a different mood. Could you describe what you see (or don't see) when you say the scaler is subpar ? And what are the deinterlacer minus ? I read the Secret's shootout but want to have a more detailed/in the field description.

thanks

[emcgrath]

Two comments and one question from a new D2 owner:

1. I am running my d2 directly to my 8700+ with a 10M DVI cable from RAM electronics with no problem whatsoever. Just a datapoint to add to the long cable discussion.

2. Although I ordered my d2 well after the new firmware was released, it shipped with the old firmware. IMHO this is sloppy business practice. It should have at least included a cd with the new firmware on it. This is a consumer product and you shouldn't have to go through this process to get a product to work reasonably.

3. Question: Is it possible to enable the dvi output AND another output. I have a Rotel pre/pro which allows me to view on the lcd display what is being output, but to do this I need to connect either composite/component/or svideo from each source to the pre/pro. The D2 is the first product I've seen where all of the outputs aren't enabled by default.

[mandarax]

mallu2u.. sorry for the delay... I use whatever I have that seems to fit.. I cleared out all my longer lengths of DVI cable and will be using a HDMI cable in the future with an adapter... Will be using the Ultralink, the DH Labs, and also the Gefen... I just like the connectors on the HDMI spec much better than the DVI.. especially at any distance over 5 meters.. and I also have some projectors that have HDMI on them in the showroom.

thebland .... I was also wondering about your backflip on this.. I know you were considering this unit a temporary piece but what happened to do a 180 degree turn on the images coming out of the D2..

Robert

[Apple Dude]

Originally posted by Jim Noyd
Donb01-
Glad the D2 is performing well.

As far as contrast and brightness settings-if you have a copy of DVE or Avia run the grayscale ramps and pluge pattern and adjust the settings on the PJ side.


Using other 1080i input sources (including another DVI based player) I can get the grayscale percectly calibrated, but the D2 outputs the same brightness at 80% as it does at 100%. The grayscale ramps are useless. My Sony RPTV has been ISF calibrated and tweaked to perfection on every input (including DVI) and tech support informed me that: "The engineer says that's the way it is." Is it really that way? It seems to clip white rather seriously. Is there really no way to address this via firmware update or something? If not, can you at least comment as to whether the D3 will have this same issue? I am curious and if you have anything to share that would be helpful.

[Jim Noyd]

Originally posted by Apple Dude
Using other 1080i input sources (including another DVI based player) I can get the grayscale percectly calibrated, but the D2 outputs the same brightness at 80% as it does at 100%. The grayscale ramps are useless. My Sony RPTV has been ISF calibrated and tweaked to perfection on every input (including DVI) and tech support informed me that: "The engineer says that's the way it is." Is it really that way? It seems to clip white rather seriously. Is there really no way to address this via firmware update or something? If not, can you at least comment as to whether the D3 will have this same issue? I am curious and if you have anything to share that would be helpful. Apple Dude-
The Bravo D2 doesn't clip white per thousands of others including the new Secrets shootout.
Check that the Bravo D2's brightness/contrast and color levels are set at their mid-points prior to calibrating the display's DVI input.

[Apple Dude]

Originally posted by Jim Noyd
Apple Dude-
The Bravo D2 doesn't clip white per thousands of others including the new Secrets shootout.
Check that the Bravo D2's brightness/contrast and color levels are set at their mid-points prior to calibrating the display's DVI input.

User controls on the D2 are centered. I get the identical amount of foot-lamberts on 80% and 100% using the Video Essentials patterns. HD pattern generator at 80% and 100% does not. Any suggestions. The image does seem more subdued and the amount of contrast seems lower accordingly. This leads me to think that the white level is actually lower. Any tips you can provide would be helpful. Maybe I misread the shootout review, but I thought I read that there was some issue with the D2 (and all Sigma based players) regarding white levels.

[N8DOGG]

Just go my d2 last week after installing new firmware as soon as i opened the box, It works great no problems at all, and after calibration it was a solid performer in my books. I love people complaining about the picture, for $250 I'd say it a very good performer maybe not 1000 dollar quality but you only paid 250 so at least you didn't pay $1000 and get $250 quality right? my 3 meter dvi works great.

[Apple Dude]

Originally posted by N8DOGG
...I love people complaining about the picture, for $250 I'd say it a very good performer maybe not 1000 dollar quality but you only paid 250 so at least you didn't pay $1000 and get $250 quality right? my 3 meter dvi works great.

I don't mean to be too critical, it is just a bit disappointing when a $50 player can output proper white levels and a $250 one can't. I like the D2 in most every respect. I bought it and I will keep it. I just wanted to know if I was missing something and if I could get the most performance out of it. Nothing more.

[N8DOGG]

Apple dude, Sorry i wasn't talking about you I was talking about the people that just complain about everything about it, half the 20 pages are people ranting and raving about how unhappy they are with it. I wonder if it so disappointing send it back and get something else that you will be happy with, seems like a good solution to me.

[ReeseG]

and isn't the purpose of this forum - to have a 'healthy' discussion both positive and negative?

[mandarax]

I havent seen any unhealthy beotching at all..
Point is taken... it isnt going to be the holy grail of dvd players... but at 250.00 US it will certainly satisfy most for a while.

Robert

[mallu2u]

When is the D3 expected to come out?

[rttrek]

I use my D2 w/ a DTronics 2x1 switch and the following cables:

10m cable bought from V Inc. (switch -> Sony HS10)
6' cable that was bundled w/ a Samsung TS360 (D2 -> switch)
6' hdmi->dvi cable that came with HD DTiVo (HD DTiVo -> switch)

Everything works perfectly. The huge granularity of the brightness/etc. settings makes them useless, though. This negates one major advantage of the D2 over the D1.

[Jim Noyd]

Originally posted by rttrek
I use my D2 w/ a DTronics 2x1 switch and the following cables:

10m cable bought from V Inc. (switch -> Sony HS10)
6' cable that was bundled w/ a Samsung TS360 (D2 -> switch)
6' hdmi->dvi cable that came with HD DTiVo (HD DTiVo -> switch)

Everything works perfectly. The huge granularity of the brightness/etc. settings makes them useless, though. This negates one major advantage of the D2 over the D1. Are you using the custom settings feature on the DVI out of the Bravo D2 to the HS10? If so what settings?

[rttrek]

I haven't tried that yet Jim. I was hoping to try it tonight, but if I do this:

1. I think I'll need to change the HS10's settings via its menu each time I switch between the D2 and the HD DTiVo.

2. I hear the D2 has the same stuttering problem as the D1 when set to this mode (56Hz) and playing video-sourced material. If so, I may not use it.

As for what settings, I was planning to use the same numbers as I did for the D1.

[Jim Noyd]

These are settings I've found for the HS20-both from these forums-Don't know if they'll work for the HS10 though.

HS20 and Bravo D2 Custom Settings.

The Bravo D2 looks awesome on the HS20 with these settings. Set the HS20 to DVI-Computer mode and you'll get 1:1 pixel mapping.

Here are the settings:

Horiz Freq 45000 VertFreq 5600

Video Width 1366 Video Height 0768

HSyncTotal 1784 PreHSync 0056

HSyncActive 0144 PostHSync 0216

VSyncTotal 0803 PreVSync 0001

VSyncActive 0011 PostVSync 0023

HSyncPol 0000 VSyncPol 0000


2nd post

HF: 44968 VF: 5600

VW: 1368 VH: 0768

HST: 1784 PreHS: 0056

HSA: 0144 PostHS: 0216

VST: 0803 PreVS: 0001

VSA: 0011 PostVS: 0023

HSP: 0000 VSP: 0000

[WynsWrld98]

Regarding "I haven't tried that yet Jim. I was hoping to try it tonight, but if I do this: 1. I think I'll need to change the HS10's settings via its menu each time I switch between the D2 and the HD DTiVo."

You're correct, you will have to make a change to the HS10 each time you switch between these sources because the HS10 must be in computer DVI mode when watching the D2 with custom settings for 1:1 pixel mapping and in GBR mode when watching the HDTivo.

I have macros that automate the whole process on my Color Pronto. I have an HS10, Bravo D1 (at 1:1 pixel mapping), Zenith HD-SAT520 (soon to be replaced with HDTivo on its way to me from CC) and Dtronics 2x1 DVI switcher.

[Jim Noyd]

Wayne-
Could you help traveler out here-
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4034892#post4034892

[rttrek]

Originally posted by WynsWrld98
Regarding "I haven't tried that yet Jim. I was hoping to try it tonight, but if I do this: 1. I think I'll need to change the HS10's settings via its menu each time I switch between the D2 and the HD DTiVo."

You're correct, you will have to make a change to the HS10 each time you switch between these sources because the HS10 must be in computer DVI mode when watching the D2 with custom settings for 1:1 pixel mapping and in GBR mode when watching the HDTivo.

I have macros that automate the whole process on my Color Pronto. I have an HS10, Bravo D1 (at 1:1 pixel mapping), Zenith HD-SAT520 (soon to be replaced with HDTivo on its way to me from CC) and Dtronics 2x1 DVI switcher.
Yes, exactly. If I decide to use this, I'll write similar macros for my MX-800. Gotta pay the bills first tho. :(

Any word on whether the "stutter" is still there?

[WynsWrld98]

I definitely have the stutter on video-based material with my D1 (I use my backup Panny RP91 instead on video-based material) but am not sure if the D2 has the same problem. I'm very curious though since I may upgrade to a D2 or just wait for the D3...

[mandarax]

D3... Was told late 3rd quarter to early 4th quarter release...

Jim do you have any settings relative to the Epson 500 that you could recommend..???

Robert

[rttrek]

Well, the D2 in custom mode for the Sony HS10 definitively still has the stutter. :(
This is very disappointing, and makes the custom mode "mostly" unusable. I will leave everything set up to not use it, and will use it only if I'm there and am showing film-based material exclusively. This means that disks like "making of xxx" can't use this, since they generally have a mix of video and film.

So now that's two big Bravo advantages negated; the custom scaling and the overly-coarse video adjustments.

[mandarax]

Gotta say it still looks great on the BenQ 8700+ tried the 1080i this evening and it was terrific..

I did the firmware upgrade even though my unit did not have the dreaded reset problem... went smooth.. no problems..

Robert

[emcgrath]

Has anyone figured out the optimum custom dvi settings for the 8700+? Mine looks great with the standard 720p. Mandarax: Why 1080i vs 720p?

[mandarax]

emcgrath... I just tried out both... at first used the 720P then when I did the firmware upgrade I thought I would give the 1080I a go..

[Donb01]

Update: I'm using my 10M DVI cable I got from V at the same time I purchased the D2, and it is running into my 8700+ just fine with no problems. I am not using a switch box... yet.

[oleus]

has anyone here who has had to send their units back to VINC had problems with delays ?

i sent my D2 to them 10 days ago and have heard nothing after emailing them a few times.

[Dave Harper]

I sent a bad D1 in a couple weeks ago and and I had a pretty quick turnaround. I should be getting the new unit today from Fedex. I left a message on their voicemail late last friday and they promptly returned my call on Monday with a status update.

Overall a good experience.

[mallu2u]

D2 allows upconversion over component, right?

[oleus]

supposedly my RMA had a mystery "hold" on it. i sent them my D2 3 weeks ago and they still haven't sent my replacement.

needless to say dealing with VINC hasn't been a very pleasant experience for me...at least i finally got the authorized reseller i bought it from on ebay to agree to a refund if this one has the same DVI problems as the first unit.

i have a second run of DVI cable to test it with (different length, brand, etc) whenever it does arrive, which should be sometime before the presidential election this fall.

[jbarbbcuny]

I'm about to receive delivery of a Sammy HLP. It has one DVI jack and one HDMI. Cable box will have DVI and no HDMI. I'm thinking about buying the D2 which also has no HDMI. To avoid buying a DVI switcher (for the time being) could I use a DVI to HDMI cable? That would take care of video. If so, what jacks should I use for the best audio?

[RamzeVA]

just tried 15 FT of Lindy DVI-D cable and it failed...


/sigh

[oleus]

you need to let VINC know about the failure with your 15ft dvi cable.

they are still very skeptical that ANYTHING is wrong with their dvi outputs and longer DVI cable runs.

[Jim Noyd]

Originally posted by jbarbbcuny To avoid buying a DVI switcher (for the time being) could I use a DVI to HDMI cable? That would take care of video. If so, what jacks should I use for the best audio? [/B] Check the Sammy manual re: HDMI input accepting DVI Video, but it should if at spec.

Either Coaxial Digital or Toslink Optical Digital in that order for best audio.

[oleus]

Jim-

what is the status of VINC's troubleshooting of the numerous problems with long dvi cable runs?

the above post mentions lindy cables....i've had problems with both monster and INFOCUS dvi cable runs. so that is beginning to definitely look like it's NOT the cable causing these problems.

the reason i ask you is because whenever i talked to the VINC tech they basically acted like they didn't really believe me. it was very frustrating.

[Jim Noyd]

I have no official statement from them on this issue except that they are looking into your inquiry.

[tomrhyne]

I haven't reviewed all the problems stated relative to DVI cables and I know some of the problems involve DVI switches, but for the record I've been using an unswitched 9 meter DVI cable to a SIM2 projector for about 8 weeks without a single problem.

Tom
<><

[oleus]

tom -

what brand cable are you using?

i wouldn't be surprised if you said BetterCables, those seem to work good for people.

for the record i'm not using any sort of swicth and i had the problem.

thanks

[tomrhyne]

oleus, the cable is made by Lindy.

Tom
<><

[oleus]

ok so we have someone with a 15ft run of Lindy dvi cable that' snot working with the D2, and one person today who said they have a 9meter run of Lindy that IS working.

i expect to gte my replacement D2 tomorrow, i'll post the results tomorrow. i have an extra run of cable to test it with for troubleshooting - different length, brand, etc (one of them is a lindy i believe).

if that doesn't work i'm sending it back and washing my hands of VINC...maybe i'll just belly up and buy the marantz 5900 like i should have done in the first place and stop worring about dvi.

[oleus]

just corrected my last post - didn't make much sense -sorry

[WynsWrld98]

Something is fishy with the long cable runs with the D2 because I'm using a 2m cheapo DVI cable from Bravo D1 to Dtronics 2x1 DVI switcher then a 10m Lindy DVI cable run from switcher to my projector and have never had a single problem. This is a convoluted and long run and never a problem.

I would have thought the D1 and D2 are very, very similar in how they'd treat DVI cables but apparently not.

[tomrhyne]

I'm using the same cable with my D2 that I used with my D1.

Tom
<><

[oleus]

so tom - you're using a 27 foot Lindy dvi cable from your d2 to your projector and it's working fine?

9 meters, not 9 feet, right?

[kjack]

Is there any correlation on who makes the DVI receiver and cable length?

[oleus]

well i had the long-run problem feeding an Infocus7200 that has no problem receiving long runs of DVI from other sources (hd cable box, and a computer) using the same cables that failed with the D2 (infocus heavy-duty brand 30ft dvi)

like i said, i have a backup 15ft. DVI cable i bought to test the D2 with tomorrow when the replacement arrives.

[tomrhyne]

oleus, yes it's meters, not feet. I went back and checked my records and I'm using a 9 meter Better Cables RGB for another piece of equipment but I can't find my invoice on the Lindy. I do recall that it was slightly shorter than the RGB because I had concerns about it being long enough for the conduit, so it possibly could be only 7.5 meters long.

Tom
<><

[oleus]

well, good news/bad news -

good news is that my replacement came and on a 3rd set of cables i tested, it worked (my orginal and backup DVI cables still lost DVO syns whenever i pressed stop or eject).

bad news - after turning off the unit to test the firmware i installed, it somehow turned on my parental lock function, and it's asking me for a password i never set!!

does anyone know the factory default password? i have this sinking feeling something screwy happened during the firmware upgrade.

i've been on hold with VINC for over 30 min now trying to talk to tech support. i figured i'd get a faster response here.

[tomrhyne]

oleus, I just sent you a PM.

Tom
<><

[mallu2u]

oleus: U did get a faster response here!! Lol. Did not know Vinc has that much hold time..something to think abt while choosing a player

[oleus]

quick question for those of you adept at configuring the DVI custom settings - how can i find the "right" settings for my infocus sp7200 projector? i thought it was native 720p but others are saying you can get 1:1 pixel mapping with the right dvi custom setting from the d2 dvi menu.

thanks
-oleus

[byellin]

Oleus, I sent you a PM. Check it out.

[N8DOGG]

I'm using a 6 meter belkin dvi-d from future shop here in canada and it works great, but mind you i havent had any problems with my d2 YET and hopefully never will.

[Justin Morgan]

I just received a Bravo D2 earlier this week. Before hooking it up to my front projector, I decided to test it with my Sony Wega TV set using the 2 meter DVI cable that came with my computer monitor. This setup worked great.

So then I tried connecting my new 10 meter Monster DVI cable between the D2 and the Sony TV. This worked for a few minutes and then failed. It appears that the TV is unable to sync to the signal (wierd bands of color on the TV). After stepping through the video modes with the Video Mode button I was able to get the set to sync again, but it failed again a few minutes later.

Since the Monster DVI cable had worked briefly, I decided to test the same cable from my home theater PC's DVI output to the Sony TV. This worked like a charm. I played most of Gattaca (Superbit) and it looked very good with this combination.

So, in summary:

WORKS: Bravo D2 --2-meter-cable--> Sony TV
WORKS: Home theater PC --10-meter-cable--> Sony TV
FAILS INTERMITTENTLY: Bravo D2 --10-meter-cable--> Sony TV

So the problem is something in the D2, not the 10 meter cable nor the TV set. Since the D2 fails intermittently with the long cable, it's probably a software problem and not a hardware problem.

[Justin Morgan]

Gefen sells a DVI repeater that might fix the cable length problem, but it's an expensive solution at $250 MSRP. Has anyone tried fixing the "D2 long cable problem" with this repeater?

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2195

http://www.gefen.com/images/hdtv-repeater-front.jpg

[Jack Gilvey]

supposedly my RMA had a mystery "hold" on it. i sent them my D2 3 weeks ago and they still haven't sent my replacement.
Great. :( They received my faulty player on Tuesday and I can't get a word out of them.

Jim Noyd, can you help?

[Dave Harper]

Originally posted by Justin Morgan
Gefen sells a DVI repeater that might fix the cable length problem, but it's an expensive solution at $250 MSRP. Has anyone tried fixing the "D2 long cable problem" with this repeater?

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2195

http://www.gefen.com/images/hdtv-repeater-front.jpg

If someone wants to try one of these, I am a dealer for Gefen products, so if you order one, I can get it and pre-test it on my D2 before I send it to you. If it doesn't work, I can just send the unit back to Gefen. This way you'll know before hand whether it will work for you.

Let me know, I can be reached at Harperhometheater@comcast.net

[RamzeVA]

Emailed VInc about the DVI cable issue and all they could tell me was to fork over 400+ dollars for their own DVI cable, such bull****, all this company cares about is money, its very obvious there is DVI long cable issues and they pretend its a minor issue since some people have success, it should be fixed by now or I guess its an unfixable PoS.

I personally have gone through 3 different DVI cables from 10 FT to 16FT and none have worked, including Lindy, 6 FT works fine, as everyone else posted 6 FT works just great, but like many others we need longer then 6 FT.

[oleus]

for what it's worth, i got this cable to work with the d2-
http://www2.dvigear.com/dvca7me4.html

these are NOT expensive cables so it might be worth a shot for those of you who still have a d2 and can't get a long run working.

ps - the 15foot length was a little short for my needs so i am about to install a dvi faceplate, as well. also installing a geffen 2x1 switch, which will really test this cable with the D2.

2 other cables (infocus and lindy) did not work. they were NOT faulty cables as they were tested exhaustively with my comcast hd pvr.

even though i have it working now it doesn't change the fact i had to go through 2 D2's and 3 DVI cables to do it. if that doesn't indicate something's wrong i don't know what is!

[Rich V]

Looks like I must be one of the few lucky D2 owners.
I’ve had my D2 for two weeks now and have had few problems. The unit did come with the old software but once I updated the software to cure the D2s Alzheimer’s problem on power down it’s been problem free. I have a 5 meter DVI cable (from cablewholesale.com $33.68) and have no problems with the signal to my BenQ 8700+. It is slow to respond to some commands and initial DVD disk boot up but otherwise I’m very happy with the player and it’s video performance. I have had good results with photo CDs as well but initial boot up is very slow for this media. I can only guess, based on the bad experiences of others posting here, that quality control or spotty equipment incompatibility is at fault. If you can get a ‘good unit’ it is well worth it.

Rich V

[aaron3421]

For what it is worth...I have had good resonse and interaction with V Inc tech support. They have responded in a timely manner and have done more than I was expecting when it comes to servicing my D2.

Of course, I wish I didn't need to deal with them...but that is another story...

[oleus]

just got the Gefen 2x1 switch, and it works just great with the replacement D2 i was sent.

one thing i noticed was that it had a very hard time switching back to the D2 feed unless the resolution was the same as the other source...since my HD cable box is set to 1080i, i ended up using this resolution for the D2 as well. this made switching flawless after hiccups switching between 720p and 1080i.

i bought a DVI faceplate for my wall also, but either the faceplate or the addition of another run of cable to facilitate it introduced the dreaded "white sparklies" into the mix, so the dvi faceplace is going to have to go back to dvigear.com

so at least i can report that the D2 is working with a 15 ft. run of rather inexpensive DVI cable, as well as the Gefen2x1 switch, without any dropouts or handshake issues.

[Jim Noyd]

Can't you set the HD cable box to 720p as well? That's the native rate of your Infocus 7200.

[santellavision]

Jim,

Most cable and Sat boxes are horrible at scaling. As most HD programming is in 1080i, when the box does the scaling to 720p output, it looks horrible. Most PJ's do a much better job of scaling than Cable/Sat boxes. So, it's best to leave your box at 1080i.

[Jim Noyd]

New Bravo D2 Reviews-

Bravo D2 DVD Player with DVI
Extremetech.com
http://www.extremetech.com/print_article/0,1583,a=130790,00.asp
Excerpts-
“, the D2's output over DVI is simply gorgeous.”

“The D2 performed spectacularly well at 720p and 1080i.”

“Superb image quality through DVI; improved analog image quality over the original D1; excellent remote.”


CNET Review
V Bravo D2
http://reviews.cnet.com/4505-6474_7-30671314.html?tag=txt

Excerpt-
"Excellent video performance from DVI output; converts DVD to HDTV resolutions; playback of DivX and MPEG-4 video files; JPEG viewer; relatively inexpensive."

[gshelley61]

Nice reviews. The ExtremeTech reviewer said "Curiously, you can choose between 480p, 720p and 1080i when using component video – but you can only actually watch DVD content at 480p." If the D2 is like my D1, you certainly can use the component output with upscaled modes (720p, 1080i). However, the DVD must not be copy protected... either a home-made DVD or a backup DVD-R that has the protection encoding removed.

Still, the stunning performance using the DVI is the reason to have a Bravo, IMHO. The component outs can't compete with that.

[mallu2u]

Jim: What is the expected date for D3?

[Jim Noyd]

Unknown

[mallu2u]

this year or 2005?

[oleus]

jim -

as stated above, the motorola HD pvr cable box looks a little bit better in 1080i than 720p. even though the SP7200 is 720p native, the only native 720 channel is Espnhd.....and i don't want the box scaling everything except for ESPN.

still trying to figure out why putting the Bravo D2 in 720p or 1080i looks so much better than 480i or 480p on my projector....most people on my projector's forum say to let the projector do ALL the upscaling even with the dvi port. i'm not seeing it that way, although i underdstand what they're saying theoretically.

[Jim Noyd]

Originally posted by oleus
still trying to figure out why putting the Bravo D2 in 720p or 1080i looks so much better than 480i or 480p on my projector....most people on my projector's forum say to let the projector do ALL the upscaling even with the dvi port. i'm not seeing it that way, although i underdstand what they're saying theoretically. The quality of the Bravo D2's scaler is quite good.

[oleus]

while i believe the Bravo D2's scaler is very good, could it possibly be better than the Farjouda chip in the Infocus? i'd be willing to believe it, i've just been told so many times this was "impossible".

[DiscounTech]

I understand that there is much debate from some users as to whether to scale resolution in the DVD player or in the display device. I'm sure there are technically more sophisticated and higher quality chips out there for scaling content, in high end displays. =However=, my understanding of MPEG is that it employs compression algorithms for the reduction of spatial & temporal redundancy. The MPEG decoding device (the DVD player) actually has the source data & formulae, so it would seem to me that it would intrinsically have a tremendous advantage at interpolation/extrapolation of image resolution (whilst creating as few unwanted artifacts as possible). I am suggesting therefore that scaling at the mathematical source always has more latent potential. Hence, if you're not happy with the scaling that the DVD player is performing, you'd be better off upgrading the DVD player, rather than trying to upconvert the DVI output (which is not compressed, and not represented with any motion vectors etc).

I'm not a video engineer, so I'd like to hear some of the more qualified users' perspective on this?

[gshelley61]

I have a Faroudja scaler in my Samsung HLN467W DLP. The image quality is best over DVI when my Bravo D1 is set to 1280x720p. The DVD player has an excellent built-in scaler. Sending a 480p signal and letting the display do the upscaling to 720p results in a softer picture.

[oleus]

hmm.....i was just about to come to this thread and say that after many MANY tests with different dvd's i'd concluded that leaving my D2 is 480p mode was giving me the best picture when fed to my infocus projector with the Faroudja scaler......

1080i was definitely introducing unwanted scaling artifacts....720p did look "sharper" but it wasn't necessarily a natural sharpness to my eyes. i'll leave it on 720p for a while and see what i think. at least i've ruled out 1080i for my setup...i had been leaving it on 1080i since my Gefen 2x1 switch doesn't seem to like switching back and forth between HD signals of different resolutions....syncing with the projector was much easier when both of my sources were set to 1080i (my hd cable box does a poor job of converting 1080i to 720p).

[gshelley61]

With my DLP, I have the "sharpness" control set to 15 (out of 100) on the DVI input. In fact, it looks just as good at 0... Your Infocus projector may behave a bit differently than the Samsung DLP for a variety of reasons, so use whatever settings you think look best.

[oleus]

yeah, the infocus has no sharpness control when using the dvi input.

i assume that is good, being at neutral i presume....

[mandarax]

Contrary to common belief all DVI cables are not created equal... once you go beyone the 5 meters it becomes a bit dicey especially with some manufacturers... and with some projectors.. The D2 was also just reviewed by a prominent HT magazine... I didnt read the whole article but the last comment from the reviewer was ... I am ordering my own unit.. and there was some pretty good heavy weights being reviewed in the same magazine.

[WynsWrld98]

Is V Inc. an advertiser in that magazine? (ha ha ha ha!) ;->

[oleus]

mandarax-

also contrary to popular belief, more expensive DVI cables don't always work better, even with long lengths....i had a quite pricey DVI cable from INfocus that wasn't working right with my D2....it wasn't until i auditioned a rather inexpensive 20 foot DVI cable that many problems went away (including green flashes from my cable box).

[Rich V]

Hi All,

I have my D2 running over DVI to a BenQ 8700+. When I output 720p I was having some strange artifacts pop up. Every few minutes I would see what looks like a horizontal break in the video, a 1 or 2% skewing of the image to left that would drift to the lower portion of the screen. This would last for a few seconds. I did not see any distortion or lines just a skewed image. This was seen on both film and video based DVDs. When I switched to 480p I do not see this artifact. I do think the 720p is a sharper image and would like to use this format. Any idea what this problem is and can I correct it?

Thanks
Rich V

[mandarax]

Oleus ... Infocus does not make cables... In fact if there is one cable I have the most issues with it is actual with Infocus cables and their adapters ... There does not seem to be any quality control at all on these and the connectors are the prevailing issue.. IE I receive more complete duds only with Infocus cables and adapters. Which really sucks exponentially because they don't seem to offer any of these with the projector. You receive it ... find out ...oops ... I have to now go out and get me a cable adapter... then you receive the cable adapter and it is a dud... causing yet further grief ..

Rich I have been predominately viewing with a 8700+ and have never had this problem... try going up to 1080i and see if it persists.. Is it with all dvds or specific ones..

[Rich4av]

Rich,

I have seen these artifacts. They are usually due to the specific DVI cable or cable length, the resolution selected, and finally the signal put out by the device (in this case, a D2).

DVI is not spec'ed above 5 m and some longer cable show this and other (sparklies, flashes) artifacts. There are a number of threads on DVI artifacts.

[Rich V]

mandarax

I did some experimentation with DVI output formats with the following results:

720p definite artifacts as I noted before lasting several seconds
1080i artifact still present but somewhat less noticeable they seem to be shorter in duration
480p no artifacts or very short in duration

What I noticed today was that fast and frequent scene changes cause this artifact to occur more frequently. Also if I pause or advance the DVD frame by frame when the artifact is occurring I can’t see it but hit play and it sometimes resumes. I was using the fight scene at the end of Dune ( the SciFi channel miniseries version) with lots of fast action to reliable produce this problem. With this program source I think I may see the artifact on 480p but it is very fast and transient and hard to tell for sure during the fast scene changes. I have had this happen on other DVDs (LOTR, Matrix) as well so probably not a disc problem.


Rich4av,

I’m using a 5 meter DVI cable (and need every inch of it for my setup!) so not over the length limit. After my extended viewing of the Dune DVD in 720p I see occasional white noise flashes that look like single frame nicks on an old film print movie. Very fast and just a few pixels in size, are these the “sparklies” you mentioned?
If the problem is the DVI cable I can move the D2 and try the short cable that came with the projector to see if that eliminates the problem.

Any other ideas on this?

Thanks
Rich V

[oleus]

rich v -

the first time i had my bravo hooked up to DVO i had the EXACT same artifact on 720p.

i went into the settings menu and found that i had it set to 720, but under the PBR setting....i switched that to off, set the DVI output to 720, and haven't seen the artifact since.

[Justin Morgan]

Originally posted by Justin Morgan
I just received a Bravo D2 earlier this week. Before hooking it up to my front projector, I decided to test it with my Sony Wega TV set using the 2 meter DVI cable that came with my computer monitor. This setup worked great.

So then I tried connecting my new 10 meter Monster DVI cable between the D2 and the Sony TV. This worked for a few minutes and then failed. It appears that the TV is unable to sync to the signal (wierd bands of color on the TV). After stepping through the video modes with the Video Mode button I was able to get the set to sync again, but it failed again a few minutes later.

Since the Monster DVI cable had worked briefly, I decided to test the same cable from my home theater PC's DVI output to the Sony TV. This worked like a charm. I played most of Gattaca (Superbit) and it looked very good with this combination.

So, in summary:

WORKS: Bravo D2 --2-meter-cable--> Sony TV
WORKS: Home theater PC --10-meter-cable--> Sony TV
FAILS INTERMITTENTLY: Bravo D2 --10-meter-cable--> Sony TV

So the problem is something in the D2, not the 10 meter cable nor the TV set. Since the D2 fails intermittently with the long cable, it's probably a software problem and not a hardware problem.

Gefen sells a DVI repeater that might fix the cable length problem, but it's an expensive solution at $250 MSRP. Has anyone tried fixing the "D2 long cable problem" with this repeater?
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2195
http://www.gefen.com/images/hdtv-repeater-front.jpg

Just wanted to follow up with my own post to let everyone know that this Gefen repeater does fix the cable length issue. It just arrived today and I was overjoyed when the picture appeared onscreen as sharp with the long cable as with the short cable, and with no sync issues.

It's a shame that those of us with longer cable runs need to pay an extra $250 MSRP to get the Gefen repeater, but after spending so much money on a big screen / dvd player / good cables / etc, it's worth it.

[oleus]

hmm..even though it's not a repeater, i wonder if my gefen 2x1 switch is the reason my d2 is working with my projector now...

[Rich V]

oleus,

Thanks for the suggestion.
I think I have the HD component out (PBR) set to off on the D2, I’m positive I used the HD DVI out for setting the video resolution during my test but I will double check when I get home tonight.

Justin,

I hope the solution with DVI cables on the Bravo D2 is not to buy a $250 repeater especially if the cable runs are 5 meters as in my case. That would makes the D2 a $500 player for DVI output and since DVI output/up-scaling is the only reason I went with the D2 it would be overpriced. So far I have been satisfied with the D2 but would like to feed my projector its native resolution as I think that does give the best picture.

I will try the suggestion from oleus and the short DVI cable I have from BenQ and see what happens.

Rich V

[Rich V]

oleus & Justin

So I checked the Bravo D2 video setup menu and the HD component out was turned off and the HD DVI out was at 720p.
oleus if I understood your post correctly this was not the problem you had.
I then removed the 5 meter cable and tried the 6 1/2 foot DVI cable that came with the projector, no change I still see the artifact at 720p so at this point I don’t have a clue why 720p gives this problem. The D2 has worked fine except for this bug.
I’m new to hi end video so any help on this is welcome.

Rich V

[Kirk]

Could someone help by providing instructions on how to make the ISO image CD of the firmware. I downloaded burnatonce as suggested earlier in the thread, but I'm not sure I'm using it correctly. I select "Data CD" from the Mastering menu, then add the firmware file, check the "Image File" box and then press "Compile." A Save As menu pops up, I select the firmware filename (replacing it?) and then "Write" the thing from the main menu.

When I put it in the Bravo, it recognizes it as a Boot CD, says it's loading, but then the "Media Library" menu comes up instead of the Firmware Update screen.

BTW, I'm making the ISO Image CD with a CD-RW because that's all I had laying around. Could that be the problem? Do I have to change any of the ISO settings in burnatonce?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Kirk]

Update- I just got it to work. I unplugged the D2 and tried it again (after redoing the ISO image a bizillion times!) and it worked. Boy, it sure is finicky.

[Jim Noyd]

What burnatonce settings did you use?

[Kirk]

Well this takes the cake.

I take the player down in the theater after upgrading the firmware and the first thing I notice is that it's defaulting to component out (actually it read C/YPbPr in the menu instead of "Component Out" as it had before--strange) and showing an image even though I have no cables hooked up to the component output- just the DVI cable. I had to toggle component out to "off" (because the DVI option was greyed out and unselectable) and then select the DVI output. I then selected 16:9 and the encoded digital options and powered down to see if the firmware upgrade would fix the glitch of the player losing the settings after hard power down. No such luck. The audio settings were retained, but when I powered up again, the player defaulted to 4:3 mode and was also defaulting back to that weird C/YPbPr component out mode.

I reset everything and then tried to at least watch a movie. Imagine my surprise when I get the Parental Control screen on Star Wars!!! Guess what? The Bravo wants my password!!! Gee, what could it be SINCE I NEVER SET ONE UP!!!!!!! Back in the set up menu I see that the Bravo has decided to unilaterally set the parental control to 1 and evidently come up with a password it never bothered to share with me.

So, now not only did the firmware "upgrade" not solve the hard power off problem, it screwed up the video output settings and rendered me unable to watch a movie.

If anybody has any thoughts (Jim?), I'm listening.

[Jim Noyd]

I would disconnect it for a few minutes and use the remote's TV Mode button to cycle through the ouputs. Then go to Initial settings.

[oleus]

hmm...try unplugging the DVD player for a while, plugging it back in, and seeing if that helps.


i KNOW i saw the same exact phenomenon you're seeing, so maybe the setting changes i thought fixed it aren't the real fix at all. i've had to reset my Bravo a few times so maybe one of those resets fixed that problem...

all i can tell you is that i was seeing the same thing and got it to stop, i guess i'm just not sure how.

[oleus]

KIRK -

I have the answer for you on the password problem (i have the same problem!!!!!)

the password is 0000 and we still can't figure out why the dvd player still occasionally locks into parental lock mode.


funny thing is, i had to go elsewhere on avsforum.com to find this info. Bravo tech support was clueless on the matter. No joke. Someone tried 0000 as a guess and it worked.

[Kirk]

Thanks for the parental lock tip Oleus, I'll try it tonight. I just got home from a business trip so I'll play around with the unit tonight after dinner.

Jim-

I will certainly try disconnecting the power cord tonight, although I did disconnect it briefly (maybe 10 seconds) last night to no avail. I hope unplugging it for a longer period does the trick.

[Ishman]

I was extremely skeptical prior to purchasing the Bravo D2, especially after reading about some of the issues that have plagued the player.

I decided to go ahead and purchase the unit and give it a shot, and overall I have been pleased:

Pros:
- DVi output looks very good. I wouldn't say that it's exactly near HD (as some have mentioned) but it looks much better than my previous DVD player (Panasonic SA-HT900).
- I love the ability to modify the Brightness/Contrast/Saturation controls, this allows me to get a near perfect image using DVE.
- I have yet to not be able to play something with the Bravo D2. It has passed ALL disk tests including DVD+RW/-RW. I was also able to play properly encoded DIVX AVI as well as MPEG-1/MPEG-2 compliant video files. I was also able to make a DVD+RW of my MP3 collection and use the Bravo D2 to act as my media center.
- I haven't noticed any load problems, lock-ups, or inconsistancies while playing anything for long periods of time.

Cons:
- The remote is not very responsive to the unit. It typically takes pressing a button 2 or 3 times before the player will respond. This is incredibly annoying, but seeing as I use a DVD to watch a movie and not to play with the remote, I can look past this.
- Someone else mentioned this, but I can not understand why they have blue backlit buttons and a green LCD panel. Please make it match!
- The most annoying thing of all, is powering down the unit erases all of the settings. This is in direct contriction of their manual. I hope this will be repaired in a future firmware update.


All things considered, I'm very pleased with the Bravo D2. Perhaps I just got lukcy with a good unit. If you are slightly limited on budget (like me) and want a good solid player that looks incredible, then go ahead and take the dive.

--- Ishman

[Jim Noyd]

Ishman-
You can download the firmware update ISO IMAGE file and instructions at the vinc.com site under support.

[WynsWrld98]

Jim: is the D3 still planned for delivery or has this model been deleted from the future Bravo lineup?

[Jim Noyd]

No comment.

[Ishman]

Originally posted by Jim Noyd
Ishman-
You can download the firmware update ISO IMAGE file and instructions at the vinc.com site under support.

Thanks Jim. I have applied the firmware update but am not sure if this fixes the reset of the settings on power off. Do you know of any release notes on the 1.10 firmaware version?

Thanks again...

[tomrhyne]

The firmware update does fix the problem with lost settings on power off.

Tom
<><

[oleus]

i for one think VINC should fix the problems with the D2 before they move into D3.

1) the player cannot lock into a ZOOM mode. pressing pause or just about any other button un-zooms it.

2) the dreaded DVI cable compatilibility/length issue was never addressed by VINC.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by tomrhyne
The firmware update does fix the problem with lost settings on power off.

Tom
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For some folks it does Tom. Unfortunately, I'm one of the unlucky ones who is still plagued with this problem, even after the firmware upgrade. In fact, I'd say I'm worse off after the firmware upgrade given the strange behavior I noted in my earlier post.

I'm currently working on returning my unit for a refund. Apart from these annoying user interface problems, the player's scaling and 3:2 pulldown ability is mediocre at best. (Check out the scrolling prologue on Star Wars Episode II and you'll see what I mean). I was hoping this player would rival or beat my HTPC (with analog output no less), but unfortunately it doesn't.

[ReeseG]

Originally posted by Kirk
For some folks it does Tom. Unfortunately, I'm one of the unlucky ones who is still plagued with this problem, even after the firmware upgrade. In fact, I'd say I'm worse off after the firmware upgrade given the strange behavior I noted in my earlier post.



Agreed. After the firmware update, I've had numerous issues with parental controls being set (lucky for me I guessed the password 0000), resolutions / inputs changing from DVI 720p to Component 480p and settings for brightness / saturation still not holding.

I've given up on waiting on the company to fix it. I now consider these issues as features... and am dealing accordingly.

BTW, has anyone heard from Infocus on settings with the D2 and the 7200? I'd be interested to know if there are changes to gains and offsets, as there were with the D1.

[Jack Gilvey]

Second unit here...still can't get DVI to work. Yay.

[oleus]

unfortunately I have to agree with Kirk -

the scaler in the D2 is definitely subpar once you see "problematic" discs that dvd players with superb scalers can handle.

also, the first D2 I had did not save settings after the firmware update. the replacement refurb they sent me saves the settings with the power off, UNLESS there is a power outage. then everything is reset, inclusing picture contrast/brightness settings.

[emcgrath]

Put me in the list of people for whom the d2 works just fine.

DVI with 10M cable works perfectly.
I've found no disk that it can't handle.
The firmware upgrade solved the setting loss on power off.

Very Happy.