The Truth about HDCP?

[Q of BanditZ]

I just had a few people ask me a very good question.

Does HDCP sometimes mess up or create conflicts with certain displays?

For example, I know the Zenith DVB318 is HDCP compliant on the DVI output.

As far as I know, just about all of these DVI capable players are HDCP compliant. I think they have to be, by law, do they not?

In any event, just about every one of these players invariably has a conflct, it seems, with certain kinds of displays.

Most notably projectors and projection type TV's along with anyting above 40 inches.

So...is there anything to it, one way or the other?

[santellavision]

It's kinda' complicated.

1) Displays (In this case size doesn't matter) may or may not have HDCP on their DVI inputs.
2) Not all DVD players have HDCP on their DVI outputs.

Therein lies the problem. You have to know what you have or are possibly considering purchasing.

Most DVD players that have DVI, do have HDCP. So, if your display does not, then it won't work. It's dependant on the source. If the source has it, then the display must also.

The Momitsu and Bravo do not have HDCP on their DVI outputs and will work with any display. And as far as "must have by law" well, it doesn't seem like the copy protection police are very strong.

[Q of BanditZ]

Thanks! :)

[johnny_marin]

HDCP stands for High Bandwidth Digital Copy Protection. I've looked at the HDCP standard and nowhere does it define what High Bandwidth is. It has been ASSUMED that anything over a DVI (HDMI) connection is High Bandwidth. The assumption is then stretched to say that High Bandwidth is HDTV (720p, 1080i). If that is the case then present DVI DVD players are perfectly legal not to include HDCP on their DVI output ports. The reason, DVD today is NOT HDTV. It is something less. That is why these players (Bravo, Momitsu) can use their DVI outputs to pass DVD signals without encryption. Even when they upscale to an HDTV resolution, the signal is still NOT HTDV. It is something less.

I may be incorrect in my assertions above but I cannot find in the HDCP spec what High Bandwidth is defined as. Without a clear definition, the DVD DVI output manufacturers are not concerned. This will change when HD-DVD comes out. But until then enjoy the unencrypted picture you can get today.

John:)

[jflegert]

John,

The application of HDCP to DVDs is part of the DVD spec.

Regards,
John Flegert

[kjack]

Originally posted by jflegert
The application of HDCP to DVDs is part of the DVD spec.

It's not in any spec, but rather a part of another technology license agreement you need to sell DVD players.

[jflegert]

Keith,

Could you comment on how companies can sell DVD players that appear to violate the agreement; For example VINC, Zenith, Momitsu?

Thanks,
John

[John Dawson]

A few points from a manufacturer which designs and makes its own DVD players including an HDMI one:

Only DVD players with HDCP are permitted by the CSS licence to output video from a content protected DVD through a digital video output (DVI or HDMI). Therefore you must have a display equipped with HDCP on its digital video input to see such content. The display and source will exchange information down the digital cable and attempt to authenticate. If they do not authenticate you will see nothing or "snow".

Players that do not have HDCP enabled when playing content protected discs are illegal and their makers/importers stand to pay big fines (millions of dollars are provided for in the CSS licence) or have their shipments confiscated. Of course this depends on the enforcement people getting their act together. Note I do not intend to get into any discussions here.

There are occasional conflicts between source components using HDMI (or DVI) and displays. These are not always caused by trying to authenticate HDCP but are just as likely in my experience to be due to conflicts in the way the devices implement the less well defined parts of the standard or plain firmware errors. Many vendors, including Arcam, are working together behind the scenes to eradicate these problems and no doubt they will shake out in time.

As Arcam writes its own DVD player control firmware we have already incorporated a few workarounds for known field problems with certain displays; we also allow users to force control of the type of outputs (480i/p,576i/p), RGB or component, PC video level or consumer level, on our DV79 HDMI player to get certain displays to work. So far, so good I am pleased to say :-)

HTH.

John Dawson (Arcam)

[kjack]

Originally posted by jflegert
Could you comment on how companies can sell DVD players that appear to violate the agreement; For example VINC, Zenith, Momitsu?

They are basically "flying below the radar" for now. I'm surprised Zenith is on the list since LG is a large company and DVD Forum member.

One day they will be asked to immediately stop selling the players and offer a new model that supports HDCP. Or include it in a software update if the hardware can support it.

Many will be moving to HDMI, which includes HDCP by default, and requires interoperability testing before it can be sold.

With our newest chip (EM8620L), we've ensured our customers cannot get around the HDCP requirement, forcing them to be in compliance.

[Foxbat121]

John,

A lot of TV's HDCP circuit become inactive when you switch away from the DVI input. That causes a lot of HDCP errors for many DVI capable cable STBs and many DVI DVD players that enforce HDCP. What usually happen is after you switch away and back to DVI input, your TV will only show snow screen. The reason behind, from what I read off the HDCP spec,. is that these DVI/HDCP source boxes do not poll the TV frequent enough (at least twice per second) to check if the TV's HDCP circuit is active or not. Does your Arcam player solve these problems or not? On top my head, I knew Panasonic and Samsung TVs all suffer from this kind of problem.

[John Dawson]

Foxbat - that's a good question. I don't know the precise answer to that right now but I will ask our SW team next week (it's late in the UK now, so I am the only one left - sad or what?).

John Dawson (Arcam)

[Krobar]

John,

I think Charles Hansen from Ayre had some very different thoughts on the requirement of HDCP for DVI/SDI. I was under the impression only HDMI required HDCP as part of the licensing agreement, which is need to even obtain the required chips. Is Arcam a DVD Forum member?

[kjack]

Originally posted by Krobar
I was under the impression only HDMI required HDCP as part of the licensing agreement, which is need to even obtain the required chips.

The latest license agreement states "...DVI or HDMI...".

HDCP is integrated within HDMI, so "HDMI" and "HDMI with HDCP" mean the same thing.

[BajaFishin]

All these DVD Forum rules are all man made policies.

I rather have a player that broke every DVD Forum Rules and be able to play fine on any display device, any region and be able to disable macrovision..... and so on.

Sometime it's just good to - not to be compliance with all the policies (well, at least some of the policies).

peace out brother

Baja

[John Dawson]

Foxbat -

I had a word with our DVD engineering team and they told me that what you are experiencing is a known problem in the industry and is to do with the way some display manufacturers implement DVI or HDMI.

Our player polls the display every 2 seconds (in accordance with the HDMI spec) and so you should see reauthentication when the DVI input is selected on average after 1 second or so. This could be much improved if the display were to toggle the hot plug signal briefly off and on again whenever the DVI input was selected - the player would then know something had happened and reauthenticate immediately. You might suggest this to your display manufacturer as a firmware update :-)

I believe there is nothing you can do to get rid of the snow while this happens - HDMI introduced a video mute function for this very reason.

HTH.

John Dawson (Arcam)

[Foxbat121]

Thanks, John. That's good to know. HDCP spec is very vague on what display device should do. That's why most TVs take the cheap way:) It's ultimately is a tough job for DVD players, cable/sat. STBs to cop with these devices.

[dozens]

Who drives the handshaking ? I have been told by LG and BenQ that my devices have the latest hdcp firmwares and I should not be experiencing any problems but I do :) It only happens on some dvds. Some dvds display and hdcp error message for a couple seconds, others require that I unplug my dvd player. So it would seem that the dvd themselves have a role to play in authenication. Is this true ?

[Erik Garci]

Originally posted by kjack
HDCP is integrated within HDMI, so "HDMI" and "HDMI with HDCP" mean the same thing.
Are you implying that there is a rule that prohibits all manufacturers from adding an HDMI connector to a device unless the manufacturer agrees to support HDCP on that device?

I suppose that if the HDMI connector is patented, then the patent owner could enforce the rule, but the patent will eventually expire, at which time the rule will cease to be enforceable. Also, it's easy to get around the rule by simply adding a DVI connector instead and then add a passive DVI-to-HDMI adapter. So what would be the point of having the rule?

[kjack]

Originally posted by Erik Garci
Are you implying that there is a rule that prohibits all manufacturers from adding an HDMI connector to a device unless the manufacturer agrees to support HDCP on that device?

You could put it that way.

But it is a license agreement, not a patent issue. Manufacturers will not be able to buy a HDMI chip that does not support HDCP.

Converting from HDMI to DVI by changing connector or using adaptor cable will not remove HDCP.

[Erik Garci]

Originally posted by kjack
Manufacturers will not be able to buy a HDMI chip that does not support HDCP.
OK, but manufacturers can buy a non-HDMI chip that produces a TMDS signal but does not support HDCP. So won't manufacturers be able to attach an HDMI connector to that chip instead of attaching a DVI connector?

[wyzeguy]

What happens if one of these 'under the radar' manufacturers decides to try and build a black box that will accept an HDMI input and then output an HDCP-free signal over DVI. Presumably in order to do this, one of the unique keys assigned to each HDCP receiver would need to be cracked. If this were the case, and the key cracked originally belonged to something popular like (hypothetically) a 'Panasonic PTL-900' or a 'Sony HS60', what would happen to owners of these devices if the key was eventually turned off as part of the system renewability check? Do their HDMI/DVI inputs become worthless overnight?

What is the likelihood of something like this happening?

[kjack]

OK, but manufacturers can buy a non-HDMI chip that produces a TMDS signal but does not support HDCP.
That would be DVI without HDCP. Of course, if the software expected HDCP support and didn't see a chip that supported HDCP, there could be no output at all.

So won't manufacturers be able to attach an HDMI connector to that chip instead of attaching a DVI connector?
I suppose you could, but what would be the point? You've integrated an adapter cable essentially.

[John Dawson]

Keys in HDMI are uniquely assigned to each HDMI transmitter and receiver chip, at least as far as Silicon Image parts go. If an individual key is "broken" it can be revoked on future DVDs or broadcasts; there is a section on DVDs which HDMI players have to read that is set aside for keys that are to be revoked. If one is encountered by the DVD player, say in the hypothetical illegal box downstream, then the system will fail to authenticate. But because the keys are unique only that box will be affected.

John Dawson (Arcam)

[dsmith901]

Originally posted by johnny_marin
HDCP stands for High Bandwidth Digital Copy Protection.
John:)

Not to be too picky, but wouldn't it then be "HBCP?" Doesn't HDCP stand for "High Definition Copy Protection?"

Also, it is my understanding DVI is a one-way connector and HDMI is two-way, which is how it can recognize compliant systems. They also use different connectors.

[Erik Garci]

Originally posted by kjack
I suppose you could, but what would be the point? You've integrated an adapter cable essentially.
I'm just trying to clarify the issue.

It seems that the following configurations are possible:
HDMI chip with HDCP, with an HDMI connector
HDMI chip with HDCP, with a DVI connector
DVI chip with HDCP, with an HDMI connector
DVI chip with HDCP, with a DVI connector
DVI chip without HDCP, with an HDMI connector
DVI chip without HDCP, with a DVI connector

But the following configurations are not possible:
HDMI chip without HDCP, with an HDMI connector
HDMI chip without HDCP, with a DVI connector

Correct?

[Erik Garci]

Originally posted by dsmith901
Not to be too picky, but wouldn't it then be "HBCP?" Doesn't HDCP stand for "High Definition Copy Protection?"
High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection
Also, it is my understanding DVI is a one-way connector and HDMI is two-way, which is how it can recognize compliant systems.
DVI is also two-way.

[monkeyphant]

From an EMEDIALIVE.COM artlicle:

http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/PrintArticle.aspx?ArticleID=8498

"While the transition from analog component video cable to DVI produces sharper images on digital displays, the imposition of HDCP to secure the DVI connection has introduced bugs in some displays that can frustrate consumers. You can avoid many of these aggravations by performing some preliminary HDCP tests before you purchase your DVI-enabled display. However, regardless of what HDCP product you buy, it needs to be software upgradeable. This will ensure that the device doesn't become a paperweight when you encounter HDCP-related bugs."


Based on the article, it appears that the HDCP might not only cause consumers compatibility problems, but I wonder how those of us who have non-compliant hardware will react to this protection scheme. There are consumers who have unknowingly committed to a major purchase of hardware that will not interface with HDCP. While it is not a problem for me to upgrade, there are some people who will simply refuse to purchase DVI/HDCP hardware in retaliation/response to this new standard. Using the component video outputs may be an alternative, but I would venture a guess that once a person gets used to an all Digital image after spending, in some cases, a great deal of money purchasing DVI cables, switch boxes; etc, that having to use analog outputs of a DVD player or HTDV Receiver would not be accepatable to them.

Again from the EMEDIALIVE.COM article:

"To accommodate the new feature set of HDMI, a new revision of the HDCP protocol (HDCP 1.1) has been published. The designers of HDMI and HDCP 1.1 took great pains to ensure backwards compatibility with DVI/HDCP (i.e. you can plug the smaller HDMI cable into a DVI connector and still see video). Therefore, theoretically, you should be able to connect an HDMI and HDCP 1.1 transmitter to your existing DVI/HDCP 1.0 display without incident.

Alas, given that there are compatibility issues between pure HDCP 1.0 devices, it is logical to assume that there will be some compatibility issues between HDCP 1.1 and HDCP 1.0 devices. Since there's no way to anticipate future compatibility issues, it would be advisable to ensure that all HDCP-enabled devices you purchase are software upgradeable. That way, if you encounter a bug, you can download a firmware update rather than tossing your expensive display into the garbage."

It doesn't seem that the introduction of HDCP will be as straightforward as we have been led to believe. Right now I have a Panasonic PTL 300U with DVI with no HDCP and 81 hours on the bulb, 40 feet of DVI cable and a migraine....bottom line, for HDCP: buy only upgradeable hardware.

Monkey

[svolman]

Originally posted by Foxbat121
John,

A lot of TV's HDCP circuit become inactive when you switch away from the DVI input. That causes a lot of HDCP errors for many DVI capable cable STBs and many DVI DVD players that enforce HDCP. What usually happen is after you switch away and back to DVI input, your TV will only show snow screen. The reason behind, from what I read off the HDCP spec,. is that these DVI/HDCP source boxes do not poll the TV frequent enough (at least twice per second) to check if the TV's HDCP circuit is active or not. Does your Arcam player solve these problems or not? On top my head, I knew Panasonic and Samsung TVs all suffer from this kind of problem.

You are right on the money! I just bought the new Denon DVD-1910 and its not compatible with my Panasonic Plasma (TH-42PHD6UY).

Have you been able to find any solution to this issue?

[Foxbat121]

Solution is the source device (your DVD player). There is no solution for the TV and it is not the TV to blame as I indicated above.

I tesed Samsung HD841 DVI DVD player this past summer and I never encountered any HDCP problem at all. This seems to indicate that second generation DVI/HDCP chips are quite promising. The older HD931 suffered from the similar HDCP problems I listed above. I don't know why Denon DVD-1910 still has HDCP problem.

[sabih786]

what can i do about an upsampling dvd player, the zenith i heard does it thru component, but is there no way i can utlize my dvi port?

sabih

[PooperScooper]

[QUOTE=sabih786]what can i do about an upsampling dvd player, the zenith i heard does it thru component, but is there no way i can utlize my dvi port?

sabih[/QUOTE] If your DVI input is HDCP compliant you should be able to use any of the current upscaling DVD players that use DVI or HDMI outputs. If your DVI input is not HDCP compliant you are limited to a handful (or less) of players. Momitsu? An old Bravo? Others... ?

larry

[Foxbat121]

Samsung 841 and 850 with HDCP-free hack should be able to upconvert through DVI without HDCP

[Stimby]

The Sammy's/Momitsu can't compare with the PQ of the Oppo DV971H.

The Bravo could, but good luck finding one that plays discs more then 50% of the time.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=122

[PooperScooper]

Stimby,
Are you saying that the Oppo does NOT use HDCP?

larry

[PooperScooper]

Cool. I didn't know the Oppo was not HDCP compliant. It's cheap and good enough that if it has longevity issues, you just buy another one. :)

larry

[chuna]

[QUOTE=kjack]The latest license agreement states "...DVI or HDMI...".

HDCP is integrated within HDMI, so "HDMI" and "HDMI with HDCP" mean the same thing.[/QUOTE]

Kjack,

You are wrong there. I got clarification from HDMI Organization that in order to have an HDMI output, it is not mandatory for a company to have HDCP. HDMI does come in 2 flavors HDMI with or without HDCP and is perfectly legal. The only difference is you wont be able to upscale copy protected DVD's to 720 or 1080 if the player doesnt support HDCP.

You may want to get clarification from the HDMI organization about this.

[Myshkin]

Sorry, but this thread is a little over my head.

Just wanted to know where we're at exactly with hdcp. I've got the plv70, and like alot of others have no hdcp. Do I have to stick with my bravo, or is there finally a way to upgrade?

[PooperScooper]

Myskin,
The Oppo upscaling player does NOT have HDCP. It also seems that it is a MUCH better player than the dreaded Bravo.

larry

[Myshkin]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Has anyone tried using the Digital Connection DD-D12P to convert. I saw this on another thread. I'm looking into buying a receiver w/ an upconvert or at least an hdmi out, but with hdcp compliance issues, I'm not sure if I should just avoid any dvi switching at all.

[subwoofer]

[QUOTE=chuna]Kjack,

You are wrong there. I got clarification from HDMI Organization that in order to have an HDMI output, it is not mandatory for a company to have HDCP. HDMI does come in 2 flavors HDMI with or without HDCP and is perfectly legal. The only difference is you wont be able to upscale copy protected DVD's to 720 or 1080 if the player doesnt support HDCP.

You may want to get clarification from the HDMI organization about this.[/QUOTE]

Below I have posted two links to Samsung DVDs, the first is the 850 that is without HDCP and the second comes with it. I'm a bit confused about HDCP. From what it sounds like, if you have the 850, you can't upconvert copy right DVDs to 720p but the 941 can. Then why does the 850 advertise that it can upconvert? Also, how many DVDs out there are copy right protected?

I would hate to get an HDTV and one of these DVD players to find out that I can't upconvert.


http://www.tvauthority.com/DVD-Player/Samsung-DVD-HD850.asp
http://www.tvauthority.com/DVD-Player/Samsung-DVD-HD941.asp

[PooperScooper]

[QUOTE=subwoofer]Below I have posted two links to Samsung DVDs, the first is the 850 that is without HDCP and the second comes with it. I'm a bit confused about HDCP. From what it sounds like, if you have the 850, you can't upconvert copy right DVDs to 720p but the 941 can. Then why does the 850 advertise that it can upconvert? Also, how many DVDs out there are copy right protected?

I would hate to get an HDTV and one of these DVD players to find out that I can't upconvert.


http://www.tvauthority.com/DVD-Player/Samsung-DVD-HD850.asp
http://www.tvauthority.com/DVD-Player/Samsung-DVD-HD941.asp[/QUOTE]
The 850 uses HDCP. It has an HDMI output. All current DVD players that have HDMI output will use HDCP when upscaling. Do your homework before buying a Samsung DVD player. They've produced one or two (or more) clunkers in the past. :)

larry

[subwoofer]

Thanks. But what is the difference between the 941 and 850? I can't tell.

[PooperScooper]

850 and 950 are the "current" players. 841 and 941 are previous models. I'm sure there's plenty of info on them in other threads here.

larry

[bisteki]

i've got a scientific atlanta explorer 8300hd cable box, connected via hdmi to a jvc rx-d402b receiver, connected via hdmi to a panasonic th-42-phd7uy plasma with an hdmi terminal board. it doesn't work, and the explorer box indicates that the monitor is not hdcp compliant. i am not sure whether this is the case or not. however, my dvd is connected in the same manner, and it works (and is hdcp compliant). so i'm guessing this is an incompatibility issue somewhere among the explorer, jvc and panny. anyone have any information? ideas?