View Full Version : Improving life/Performance of spindle motor for RP56/91
Some of the members here already know I own several DVD players as some members already know.
4 x RP82 (3 R1s, 1 R3)
2 x RP56
1 x RP91 (just obtained yesturday).
I made a intresting discovery. When opening the RP91, it happends to use the same spindle motor assmebly which the RP62/82 uses. However the clamper plate being used is the one which the RP56 also uses.
Pictures here (http://home.comcast.net/~fu_family/Clamp.zip) - relates to the explaination below as well.
Since I had a spare clamper plate used for the RP82, I swapped it out with the RP91. It fitted on just perfectly and when I tested it out, the unit is able to spin up and down significantly quicker than the original clamper plate. The speed significant is about equivalent to that the of the RP62/82. I also tested this on the RP56 with similar results(RP56 uses a different motor).
In the Clampers pic, you can clearly see the differences in the design of the RP62/82's clamper on the left and the RP56/91s on the right.
My conclusion is that the original clamper plate for the RP56/91 produces more resistance to the spindle motor which will can affect the peformance and lifetime of the spindle motor. By using the current clamper used in the RP82/62, the motor moves a lot more freely which improves the life and performance motor because of it's design.
To obtain the parts for the RP62/82's clamper plate, you need to purchase the following parts to and to assemble them:
RMR1445-K Clamp Plate
RMR1446-X Clamper
RMR1447-X Holder
JSM0048 Clamp Magnet, Ferrite
XWG6FFY Washer
RQLS0233 Laser Caution Label (optional but I bought it anyways since it doesn't come with the Clamp Plate)
Hope this helps
Sango
maxleung
06-22-04, 02:33 PM
Wow cool find! Where can these parts be purchased at? Is it only obtainable by Panasonic repair shops?
You can order them directly from the Panasonic Parts center.
http://www.pasc.panasonic.com/epartr/
Sango
Thanks, Sango.
I just placed an order for my two RP91s. The washers are backordered with ETA of 7/16/04
How would you compare the RP82s to the 91 for video quality with properly flagged DVDs?
It looks like I took your washiers since I ordered 2 sets of parts for myself.
Reguarding the video quality, I'm not quite sure since I only had it for a day. When I do look at the video quality in general(progressive on) comparing between the two units, the RP91 is pretty good but the 82s definately suprpassed it.
I think Sam has a better idea how to compare since he's has the RP91 himself.
Sango
gtaylor74
06-22-04, 10:35 PM
I own both an RP91 and an XP30. The only advantage the XP30 has is the Faroudja deinterlacer. Other than that, I think the 91 is the better player mainly due to it's additional features. It has ability to scale non-anamaphoric dvds (when using it's progressive out) and has more ability to tweak picture controls, and the remote is much better.
If you hook up the 91 to a device that has an excellent internal deinterlacer, such as a Pioneer Elite HDTV, the 91 produces a stunning image that I feel is sharper than the XP30. When using the progressive output from both players, the XP30 is better due to the Faroudja.
Thanks, that's what I had heard, the RP91 is better except for the de-interlacing. I'm using a JVB RP91 with an iScan HD for upscaling, and de-interlacing with the SiI504 chip, and the image is stunning. But I'm always keeping an eye out for something better. I have a feeling though that the only way to improve on the RP91/iScan combo is to upgrade to SDI. I'm trying to fight the urge.
For many discs if they are properly flagged, I use the progressive output of the RP91 with the vertical and horizontal filters turned on and bypassing the iScan de-interlacing, and I'm amazed at how much the RP91 sharpens the image without looking artificial. I can't imagine even SDI would be much of an improvement this way (at least that is what I keep telling myself). My biggest wish is that the RP91 had PAL progressive so that I could do the same thing with PAL discs and also be able to watch 4:3 PAL discs in the proper aspect ratio at 1080i.
If Panasonic would just bring back the RP91 with Faroudja de-interlacing, they would still sell extremely well, I think, especially if they would add SACD.
I guess I need to look at interlaced a lot more because I was just only testing with the unit to make it work again but since I only had it in progressive that wasn't the answer you were looking for.
Originally posted by gtaylor74
IIf you hook up the 91 to a device that has an excellent internal deinterlacer, such as a Pioneer Elite HDTV, the 91 produces a stunning image that I feel is sharper than the XP30. When using the progressive output from both players, the XP30 is better due to the Faroudja.
One question, If using an excellent internal deinterlacer, such as the Elite HDTV, why can we just use a cheap $99 non-progressive DVD player? Just curious what is the point of getting the progressive scan player any way? Is there a different in picture quality between players that only be used to output interlace signal if using an excellent internal scaler from a video display? Thanks.
Originally posted by Sango
It looks like I took your washiers since I ordered 2 sets of parts for myself.
Reguarding the video quality, I'm not quite sure since I only had it for a day. When I do look at the video quality in general(progressive on) comparing between the two units, the RP91 is pretty good but the 82s definately suprpassed it.
I think Sam has a better idea how to compare since he's has the RP91 himself.
Sango
Yep, I have the RP91 & XP30 & X50. Picture on all three is comparable on normal, decently-flagged hollywood film movies.
Auto3 setting work the best with bad edit detection with firmware V262, although the XP30/50 is still much better.
I don't use the adjustments, preffering to have my ISF guy calibrate it flat. Actually, on some occasions, I use the edge-enhancement reducer on titles like "2010".
What is SDI? How does it work with the RP91? Thanks
tvuong:
Interlaced output can measure just as good or bad as progressive scan. Things to look at - Video levels, frequency response, white clipping etc.. What you buy is what you get for your money.
Reguarding SDI, that's an external mod which taps directly into the MPEG decoder and outputs a digital stream - something like that.
Sango
Forgot to add in my start of the thread.
When changing the clamper assembly, make sure the tray is already opened(unit is unplugged) because if it's close, the clamper is already on the spindle motor and you won't be able to remove it.
For RP56 owners, you're going to have to take the front assembly off as picture. However, you need to losen up the screws for the front feet and the metal center bracket inside. When removing/installing the clamper, you sort of have to struggle a bit with it because of the metal braket which won't come off.
SDI--serial digital interface.
What Sango said.
Not cheap, that's why I'm trying to talk myself out of it for my RP91. Cost is $400 for the interface board for my iScan HD and another $450 to have the SDI mod done to the 91. If you have good soldering skills, you can buy an SDI kit for some DVD players (not all players can be modified) for about $130.
With SDI you have no conversion to analog and the degradation of the image that comes with it, it's just a pure digital stream.
The players we're talking about here, especially the XP30, RP82, and RP91, are considered among the best players you can modify for SDI use.
gtaylor74
06-23-04, 06:22 PM
One question, If using an excellent internal deinterlacer, such as the Elite HDTV, why can we just use a cheap $99 non-progressive DVD player?
You can certainly use a cheap non progressive player. But remember that picture quality is determined by more than just the deinterlacer. Other items such as the MPEG decoder are just as important. The beauty of the RP82 was that it gave you that excellent base video quality that the RP91 had, but improved upon the 91 by including the faroudja deinterlacer. Players like the 91 and RP82 are known to be chroma bug free, have great frequency response, pass black than black (only in progressive mode on the RP82 and only in interlaced mode on the 91), etc. A cheap non-progressive player may have the chroma bug and other video defencies which will affect image quality and accuracy.
Mr. Biggles
06-23-04, 07:32 PM
Thanks Sango! If it prolongs the life of my beloved SDI modded RP91 @ a whole <$12 delivered for these parts, then it's well worth it.
Bill
Just wanted to add. The order of how the parts assemble does matter.
I'll order it from top to bottom.
RQLS0233 Laser Caution Label
RMR1445-K Clamp Plate
RMR1447-X Holder
XWG6FFY Washer
JSM0048 Clamp Magnet, Ferrite`
RMR1446-X Clamper
Tom Roper
06-29-04, 11:24 AM
Well done Sango. I have what's been so far a problem free RP82, but live from day to day hoping not to wake up to the dreaded H02 error. What's comforting is that you have proved the on-going maintainability of these still nearly top rated, and worthwhile units. Thanks.
robertsmu
07-06-04, 02:59 AM
About 6 months ago, I got the dreaded H02 error on my beloved RP82. It was dead, wouldn't spin the discs at all. I took it off-line and purchased the Sony ES 400 disc changer to replace it (5 year warranty). It sat unplugged on a shelf near my desk until tonight.
Tonight, I was just seconds from throwing the RP82 away, and just before I did, I figured I better test her one more time. Put a disc in and, no luck, still dead. I thought I might as well check in here and see if there was a quick and easy fix. I saw Sango's pics of Panny parts for the 56/91 and I decided to open my unit up and compare guts just for chuckles.
First thing I did when I opened her up was spin the white disc on the clamping mech, and, yep, you guessed it, she fired up fine and is back up and running.
Fingers crossed on how long she lasts now.
Thanks for being a resource.
Hi robertsmu:
Very good new to hear. The spin up does help a bit as a temporary solution, but it will eventually come down to buying a new spindle motor assembly. This because when the motor really dies, the push start wouldn't be of any help. If you decide to throw it away, I may buy it from ya! =)
Sango
zrokewl24
03-30-05, 01:03 PM
hey Sango, i'm the one from hometheaterspot that had the dead Denon DVD 1600.. same as the RP-82.. my spindle assembly and optical pickup just arrived.. the motor assembly i can tackle, just had a quick question about the optical pickup, does it have to be re-aligned, or anything fancy other than the usual common sense stuff?? thanks a bunch.
Mike
Hi Mike:
The calibration is recommended since both the spindle motor and optical is being replaced. About most cases, calibration can be avoided depending on how off the calibration is. If the calibrating is way off, then discs cannot be read. If it’s somewhere near optical calibration point, it should be fine otherwise, there maybe hiccups at random.
There is a calibration disc to calibrate the units which goes for about $80. The reason for the price is it's a special disc which is virtually flat to give the proper readings for calibration.
A 5/64” hex wrench is also needed which can be obtained cheap at Home Depot. This is needed to turn the three adjustments on the spindle motor assembly.
Sango
zrokewl24
03-30-05, 06:48 PM
Sango, on my new optical pickup, there's a little 'wing' that the original does not have (appears to have been cut off?) on the wing, it says 'CD' and 'DVD' on opposite sides, the 'wing' has only 3 conductors, here are pictures of the old and new side by side for comparison, other than that obvious difference, there's no 'visible' difference in the two parts. should i worry? do your replacements come this way?? thanks.
Mike
Hi Mike:
The anti-static flexible sheet (FPC) [what you're describing] is to be cut off once the new optical pick up is hooked up. Use a pair of scissors and cut as close as possible just like the original one and you should be fine.
Sango
zrokewl24
03-30-05, 09:03 PM
allright Sango, since you're the master, i've got it back together, and the disc spins up fine, starts to read, gets choppy and sounds like the laser is having a hard time focusing on the disc... any ideas now? this must be where the 'calibration' would be required eh? you've been a tremendous help thus far... thanks again Sango.
It sounds like the unit definitely needs calibration. I assume that you had a successful read out of a certain amount of times or it read but video was showing pixels and audio was choppy, or the spindle motor is spinning at various sppeds trying to read disc?
You could obtain the disc but, I guess the question is if you're willing to spend the money for it. I just did a price check, the disc is about $90-100 range, not the 80 which I originally said.
Owning the disc at home, the disc is very handy. I've calibrated all the Panasonic units I have with this to optimize the read performance. I also recall the first Panasonic unit I fixed; the unit could not read discs at all at first. By performing the adjustments and looking at the jitter readings, I was able to figure out what to adjust with the aid of the test disc.
Sango
mimason
03-31-05, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by CJayB
My biggest wish is that the RP91 had PAL progressive so that I could do the same thing with PAL discs and also be able to watch 4:3 PAL discs in the proper aspect ratio at 1080i.
Why do you need PAL progressive for 1080i? and also use the Iscan for Apect ratio control?
zrokewl24
03-31-05, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Sango
It sounds like the unit definitely needs calibration. I assume that you had a successful read out of a certain amount of times or it read but video was showing pixels and audio was choppy, or the spindle motor is spinning at various sppeds trying to read disc?
You could obtain the disc but, I guess the question is if you're willing to spend the money for it. I just did a price check, the disc is about $90-100 range, not the 80 which I originally said.
Owning the disc at home, the disc is very handy. I've calibrated all the Panasonic units I have with this to optimize the read performance. I also recall the first Panasonic unit I fixed; the unit could not read discs at all at first. By performing the adjustments and looking at the jitter readings, I was able to figure out what to adjust with the aid of the test disc.
Sango
i sure wouldn't mind having it, however, i honestly don't plan on repairing too many more of these, so it would be just a one time use. and yes the behavior is very similar to what you describe.would it be possible to measure how far exposed the tip of each adjustment screw is and set them there? could be a good starting point? i'm kind of at a loss... where could i obtain the disc if i chose that route instead. sorry about the questions but you seem to be the most knowlegable in this area. Thanks again Sango.
Mike
Measuring the screw isn’t needed, it’s different and simpler.
The three adjustments which is three hex screw screws which sort of forum an L is flipped the other way on the spindle motor assembly. The top one is the tangential, the one below is tilt adjustment 1 and to the left of it is tilt adjustment 2.
First the tangential needs to be adjusted, followed by tilt adjustment 1. TA 2 is a grey area because it seems to be related to tangential (service manual said TA 1 [corrected] but that’s not what I’ve experienced from the repairs) if I couldn’t get tangential low enough to begin with, then adjusting TA 2 helps significantly.
For tangential, you want to play something where the laser is close to the inner part of the disc. For tilt adjustment 1, play something where ht optical is near the outer part of the disc.
For the actual calibration, you will need to check the numbers every time to make an adjustment to the particular screw you are trying to adjust. Depending on the number, if you turn the screw one way and if the numbers get better, keep going in that direction until the numbers get worse. Then you will have to turn the other way or back again using smaller increments to find the lowest number you can get.
This should be normally done with the calibration disc to be accurate. With a regular disc, the number is harder to determine but you don't want to go with the lowest (could throw it off), probably better number instead or notice no more A/V issues.
Sango
AgentSmith
03-31-05, 02:44 PM
This might be a really dumb question, why can't the entire loader just be switched with a known good one?
A well known mod on the Momistsu v880 is swapping the bad loaders with anything that will fit.
Tom Roper
03-31-05, 04:38 PM
Sango is better to answer, but I think the Panasonic loader is not a IDE/ATAPI based drive.
AgentSmith
03-31-05, 05:24 PM
Tom,
Yea...that would be a problem
Sango,
About the initial post in this thread: how difficult is the mod you describe to do without instructions? I haven't seen this thread before, and it looks interesting. My RP91 has always seemed to take a long time to spin up when you put a DVD in.
Thanks,
Joe
The loader is propritary so it isn't IDE/ATAPI/SCSI drive.
The mod for just the RP91 without instruction can be done very easily. Doing the same to an RP56/RP82 is a bit difficult due to the design but it can still be done.
Pretty much, need to obtain the parts and put it together. All you need to do is exchange the clamper plate (with everything already assembled) with the existing one.
Note: The door tray needs to be already opened or you'll find difficulty getting the clamper off. Don't try to let the tray fall off since you'll need to know how to put it back on(I know how) properly.
Sango
zrokewl24
03-31-05, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Sango
For the actual calibration, you will need to check the numbers every time to make an adjustment to the particular screw you are trying to adjust. Depending on the number, if you turn the screw one way and if the numbers get better, keep going in that direction until the numbers get worse. Then you will have to turn the other way or back again using smaller increments to find the lowest number you can get.
This should be normally done with the calibration disc to be accurate. With a regular disc, the number is harder to determine but you don't want to go with the lowest (could throw it off), probably better number instead or notice no more A/V issues.
Sango
not sure where to read the 'numbers' you are talking about, but amidst trying to adjust one of the 3 screws ever so slightly, (maybe it was a coincidence) the disc stopped, the display said H01 and it wouldn''t eject.. i powered off, unplugged, disassembled AGAIN and found nothing wrong, re-assembled, and still won't eject, or even spin up the disc now.. i'm willing to sell this piece of crap if you know of any buyers.. it's just not worth the headache now. The only problem is, i have no idea what type of player to replace it with.
Got any ideas on the H01?? what did i do to cause this? thanks Sango. (wish i could pay you some diagnostic/help fee LOL)
Mike
H01 is tray loading error. It sounds like the tray wasn't put together properly.
The jitter read out - you have to engage it by press PAUSE + OPEN on remote, press 5 on remote. I look at the numbers.
You will notice a series of digitals. The bold ones I would say are the most important followed by the first non-bigger digit and that's pretty much it. You gotta get the number down. With the calibration, I get the number to about around 7.5 to 8.2 (bold number.first non-bold number) range.
For the actual adjustment, you dont' need to take the assembly out, underneath the chassis is three holes where you can put the hex wrench in to turn the screws.
zrokewl24
03-31-05, 10:41 PM
well, the tray opened, closed, spun up, etc.. then nothing... the tray wouldn't even eject... the eject motor wouldn't spin, or anything.. the display said, 'open' then 'close' but no parts were attempting to move. it wasn't as if anything was jammed.... ?? any ideas?
zrokewl24
03-31-05, 10:47 PM
.
Check if the cable is plugged properly. I can easily duplicate an H01 just by taking off the data cable that hooks to the module PCB.
I could fix the unit if you send it to me.
Sango
Does the spindle motor problem only exist for certain build dates, or is it likely to occur in all Denon DVD-1600s and related Panasonic models?
I've had my DVD-1600 for about 1½ years with no problems so far. I'm trying to decide if I should order the spare parts now while they are still available, or wait and see if I have the problem.
-Steve
I don't think it's with the build dates. It's seems to be with to be batches of spindle motors which exhibit this issue.
I would say just wait until the problem occurs because the break down may never occur. How many hours do you have running on it currently? I heard personally from one RP91 who has 2000+ hours on the motor as well.
For one of the few times in my life I was in the right place at the right time. To explain...I don't ordinarily monitor this forum but two nights ago my SDI modified RP-91 came up with the H02 error. I though I would take the chance that maybe somebody else has had this same experience. Sure enough I found this thread and read with interest Sango's observations about the disc clamping mechanism.
In the process of troubleshooting I evidently moved the spindel motor shaft a little. The next time I powered up the unit it ran OK and continue to run OK. Even so, reducing the mass the motor must accelerate on startup makes sense.
I just now ordered the parts Sango recommended and service manual from Panasonic. Thanks Sango.
Regards,
Originally posted by Sango
...How many hours do you have running on it currently? I heard personally from one RP91 who has 2000+ hours on the motor as well.
About 500 hours, give or take. What is the typical number of hours on a failed spindle motor? From what I've read, it seems that most of the failures occurred after about two years of use.
-Steve
A couple of questions:
What is the correct part number for the service manual, and how much is it? I couldn't find it in the Panasonic parts system.
Just to make sure: replacing the clamping mechanism does NOT require recalibrating the drive, right?
Joe
Sib:
I would say it this way. There have been a majority of them which have failed just after a year or two of use. It's also true that they fail somewhere during the first 300 hours of use. Mine being one of them which failed around 248 (possibility my fault for stacking).
---------------------------------
DrJoe:
The Service Manual is part of Panasonic's literature section and those are not listed in the part system. To order, you have to call the NPC to request it. It can be obtained as CD-ROM(soft copy) or book (hard copy) - I recommend the hard copy.
The clamping mechanism doesn't require calibration, since it's not related to a optical/spindle repair.
Sango
zrokewl24
04-02-05, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Sango
Check if the cable is plugged properly. I can easily duplicate an H01 just by taking off the data cable that hooks to the module PCB.
I could fix the unit if you send it to me.
Sango
i will double check the cable on both ends, and if that's not the culprit, i'll be sending you a PM to get your mailing address. Thanks again Sango.
Mike
mimason
04-02-05, 04:15 PM
Sango,
Big Thanks for the info. Parts are on the way.
mimason
04-07-05, 09:08 PM
Got the parts today. It was really easy. The hardest thing was get the tray to line up properly because I bumped it off the track...piece of cake overall. Follow Sango's order of assembly and you're fine.
Results: It seems quieter to me but maybe that's placebo. It definitely will reduce friction. It's clear as day that the prior "honeycomb" thing rubs the disc which seems to put pressure on the spindle.
Great $11 upgrade.
The tray is pretty easy to get back in under the assumption that the user knows the procedure on how to put it back in.
Good to hear that you got teh mod to work fine =)
Originally posted by Sango
DrJoe:
The Service Manual is part of Panasonic's literature section and those are not listed in the part system. To order, you have to call the NPC to request it. It can be obtained as CD-ROM(soft copy) or book (hard copy) - I recommend the hard copy.
The clamping mechanism doesn't require calibration, since it's not related to a optical/spindle repair.
Sango
Thanks for the tips Sango.
Would you mind looking at this service manual on the Panasonic UK website:
DVD-S35E (http://manuals.panasonic.co.uk/viewing/ALL/DVD-S35E/SVC/PVAccel.html)?
Is it similar to the RP91 service manual? It has a lot of info on service alignments and on the error readouts. Looks the same as copies that have been posted for the service menus on the RP91.
This is the page (http://manuals.panasonic.co.uk/viewing/ALL/DVD-S35E/SVC/s0903000000.html) on the clamper.
This is the diagram (http://manuals.panasonic.co.uk/viewing/ALL/DVD-S35E/SVC/iw170201.gif) of the clamper assembly.
Finally, there is a little plastic gear attached to the replacement unit (you can see it in your photos). Is this left on, or is it used for something?
Thanks,
Joe
I read a few pages of the SVC Manual. The error codes are simlar except for the ones which doesn't apply for the RP91, but the common error codes is identical.
The plastic gear which is pictures on my unit is trasnferred from the exisiting spindle motor to the new one because the spindels don't come with it.
So, because I'm not changing the spindle motor, I should just leave it attached?
As far as the rest of the manual goes, are Chapter 8 "Self Diagnosis Function and Service Modes" and Chapter 10, "Adjustment Procedures" essentially the same as for the RP91?
Thanks, you are a big help.
Joe
Well, I made the swap.
It was fairly simple. The diagrams I linked above helped. It took me a few minutes to figure how to release the clamper assembly -- there is a clip on both sides near the front of the unit which need to be pressed in -- then it slips right off. The tray almost fel off -- it is very loose without the clamper assembly in place. The replacement slid right on.
Seems to be working fine. It seems to be a little faster loading DVD's. I'm not sure if the video changed at all, but I did recalibrate my TV. The geometry changed a little bit (probably unrelated to the clamper assembly) -- I had to recenter the anamorphic DVD image via the service menu on my set.
Thanks, Sango.
Later
Joe
Thanks Joe! =)
The gears can remain intact since the spindle motor is not being replaced.
The S35 diagrams is identical because it's not using the direct drive motors - same brushed ones apparently (different spindle part number I noticed, but the manual diagram looks about the same).
Video should be the same a clamper exchange. Basically its' a little faster spin up and spin downs which is quite good! =)
Sango
I'm curious how your folks mods are holding up? Everything still looking good?
Hey Sango. Thx for the tips on this stuff. I'm interested in improving the clamping assembly on my RP-56, but I'm a little nervous since it is a harder task with this drive. As far as risk/reward, is this improvement still worth it on the RP-56? Any other tips or pics on overcoming the additional challenges with the new clamper on this drive?
It's still an improvement on teh RP56 - it's a bit more difficult to do it to the RP56 compared to the 91 due to the chassis design. I'm at a different place right now, so I don't have the the unit or digital camera on me to provide.
Thx Sango. No problem. I have decent technical skills, I just don't know if I should risk breaking something that is working... at least for now. But if you think it's not too bad, I'll do it.
Naa, it's not bad at all - it'll be a first you thou, as I had that experience when I took them apart.
mimason
07-21-05, 02:50 PM
Opie, Changing out the clamper was a piece of cake. Just follow Sango's parts order listed in this thread.
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