View Full Version : BenQ working on xHD3 1080p front projector?!?
Tantalizing hints are out there...
More later if something concrete emerges.
And here we go....
"BenQ developing new front projectors using 1080p/i RPTV chips
Jillian Shih, Taipei; Carrie Yu, DigiTimes.com [Thursday 15 July 2004]
BenQ is developing a new front projector using 1080p/i chips for DLP (digital light processing) rear-projection TVs (RPTVs), according to sources at the company.
The sources indicated that Texas Instruments (TI) will not introduce 1080p/i DLP microdisplay chips, also called DMD (digital micromirror device) chips, for home projectors until at least 2006, and would require a US$500 million investment.
Although DMD chips used on DLP RPTVs are slightly different from those on front projectors, BenQ has started to develop methods of incorporating the former into its projectors, the sources said."
I'm reading this as xHD3 -- a chip several of us has heard was slated for rear-projection -- as being "repurposed" by BenQ for a front projector. This is to avoid the alleged two-year wait between now and when TI will offer a "true" 1080 chip for front projection.
Bring it on, BenQ. :)
Mark
Grubert
07-15-04, 03:28 AM
OMFG...
Couple that with BenQ's aggressive pricing strategy, and it could be a real shock to the system... unless Runco buys it out, that is. :mad:
This leads to a couple of questions.
1 Do rptv get lesser electronics compared with front projection?
2 Is it an optical difference to the dmds? I guess a tv has a different engine from a front projector.
We hear from time to time that 1080p single chip dlp is for 2006 but nobody seems to believe that.
Zarathustra
07-15-04, 08:06 AM
Considering the same thing Grubert speaks of, in what pricerange do you (anybody) think BenQ would place this machine?
Since we´re in a situation where we can speculate wildly, why not do it some more?
What amount of time has to pass before we can see an actual product?
Mark, thanx for the info!
DaViD Boulet
07-15-04, 08:40 AM
Can't wait to see what they do. Go BenQ!!!
-dave :D :D :D
car_rod
07-15-04, 08:47 AM
Rogo,
Any news about "the" XZ-Z20000? (I remember docDVD was the first to talk about it)
car_rod
07-15-04, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by rogo
"BenQ developing new front projectors using 1080p/i RPTV chips
Jillian Shih, Taipei; Carrie Yu, DigiTimes.com [Thursday 15 July 2004]
BenQ is developing a new front projector using 1080p/i chips for DLP (digital light processing) rear-projection TVs (RPTVs), according to sources at the company.
The sources indicated that Texas Instruments (TI) will not introduce 1080p/i DLP microdisplay chips, also called DMD (digital micromirror device) chips, for home projectors until at least 2006, and would require a US$500 million investment.
Although DMD chips used on DLP RPTVs are slightly different from those on front projectors, BenQ has started to develop methods of incorporating the former into its projectors, the sources said."
Matt, alias chiizu42, TI DLP™ Engineer, at our service (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=417676) ;), could you jump here and make some comment?
OK, don't comment about BenQ and what he's doing, but just tell us if the xHD3 is for RPTV only, if there are different DMDs depending on their use, RPTV or FP. It would be surprising if DMDs are different for both type of products.
Thanks.
Palladin
07-15-04, 09:39 AM
Mark,
Between this, the costs of DMD thread and your very appropriate and businesslike response in the recent Eclipse thread, you are truly on a roll. :) Keep up the good work. Looks like the number of options and potential prciing issues for FP and screens may significantly expand the market for these products over the next few years.
car_rod,
Based upon Matt's inital statements in the TI dlp thread, I think its pretty clear that this unfortunately, will not be an issue he can comment upon at this time.
___________________________________________________
Palladin
No matter where you go, there you are
Here is a link:
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20040715A7053.html
Did you notice the FP sales projections over the next few years? Comments?
maxleung
07-15-04, 10:56 AM
Neat. I could upgrade in two years...if I go with the crowd (sales projections) and get into 1080p in 2006.
I can only imagine what an xHD3 projector priced in the <$10K range would do to the existing market structure. My guess is that the Matterhorns would either disappear, or would be driven well into the <$2K range (and that may even be <$2K MSRP).
Definitely: Go BenQ!
Later,
Bill
rmostad
07-15-04, 01:59 PM
Would the fact that the light path is at right angles to the chip (in the case of the HD3 and xHD3) make it any easier to make 3 chip or perhaps a 2 chip (one green the other red/blue) system easier?
noah katz
07-15-04, 02:08 PM
"Did you notice the FP sales projections over the next few years?"
At first I was excited that they list a number for 2004, but I'm afraid the low volumes for the first two years (2004 /12K, 2005/21K) mean they will be priced high.
wohlstad
07-15-04, 02:45 PM
I was told by a local HT salesman recently that Runco is coming out with a 1080 FP by Christmas (presumably xHD3-based) . Could it be the elusive BenQ?
DaViD Boulet
07-15-04, 03:00 PM
Runco currently OEM's BenQ's 8700...right?
Then that would make sense.
It would also make sense for the BenQ version not to be unveiled until CES '05... :(
darinp2
07-15-04, 07:20 PM
Somebody told me that they thought there might be issues with the xHD3 and zoom lenses (like they may only work for fixed throw). Does anybody know if there is any truth to this? Or was this just unfounded speculation from before people knew much about it?
If they can get this working for FP it would seem like a pretty nice addition to the choices out there.
Thanks,
Darin
ChrisWiggles
07-15-04, 07:59 PM
Yeah, rogo can you comment on the throw issue that came up in the other thread? This press release seems to confirm the way the xHD3 works, and that it would only function on a defined throw, or perhaps have some other adjustment for the shifting feature with changes in throw? Fixed throw projectors aren't a new thing, but it certainly is an important thing to know if the throw will be limited to one size/distance.
Chris: My only comment here is speculation...
If BenQ releases this projector along the lines that are being discussed, they will somehow have an adjustment to allow for some range of throws. Perhaps that'll be narrower than typically available these days, but a fixed throw seems unlikely.
Again, speculation only.
Anybody care to comment on the performance of rptv parts?
Are the performance demands of rptv dmds/electronics lesser than the demands on equivalent front projection parts?
I ask this since there have been comments that TI have no chips to format input to dmds fast enough for 1080p front projection. That is unless they use d-cinema electronics I quess or are they different?
MrWigggles
07-16-04, 11:19 AM
Ohlson,
The Samsung xHD3 RPTV will be out this Christmas or no later than CES. TI will have the proper ASICs by then I'm sure.
I can also guess that Samsung and BenQ already have sort of prototype development hardware for the xHD3.
I don't think there are any shortcomings to RPTV parts other than the lack of a shadow mask around the DMD (not needed for RPTV's).
It will be interesting to see what type of deinterlacing is done for 1080i inputs. I think 3:2 pull-down detection could be a big plus but very few projectors actually do this.
The only other issue for front projection is going to be the jagged boarder, caused by xHD3, won't be maskable on FP other than by black velvet boards of you screen. Only the very picky will be bothered.
-Mr. Wigggles
DaViD Boulet
07-16-04, 11:29 AM
droooooollll....
I was wondering how the relationship between TI and the manufacturers works. When TI sells them the chips, do the contracts dictate what use they are for? Is it possible that TI won't sell the xHD3 chips for front pj use yet?
I was wondering this originally in the price thread that rogo started as there was speculation about making a 3 chipper with the cheaper chips. I was wondering if a manufacturer would be 'allowed' by TI to make a cheaper 3 chipper using XGA chips (about $350 each chip). It seems that would make a pretty nice pj for somewhere around the 5k mark (or less). If nothing else it would make a nice bright presentation pj which is probably even more important to the manufacturers.
DaViD Boulet
07-16-04, 12:01 PM
I wonder the same thing.
I'll bet that either BenQ found a loophole in their agreement with TI enabling them to go ahead with production and market a 1080P DLP FP...or there they have an agreement in place which means that many other manufacturers are also (secretly) working on similar designs but just keeping everythign hush-hush so as not to disrupt momentum for their current HD2/+ sales.
MrWigggles
07-16-04, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by JJay
I was wondering how the relationship between TI and the manufacturers works. When TI sells them the chips, do the contracts dictate what use they are for? Is it possible that TI won't sell the xHD3 chips for front pj use yet?
I was wondering this originally in the price thread that rogo started as there was speculation about making a 3 chipper with the cheaper chips. I was wondering if a manufacturer would be 'allowed' by TI to make a cheaper 3 chipper using XGA chips (about $350 each chip). It seems that would make a pretty nice pj for somewhere around the 5k mark (or less). If nothing else it would make a nice bright presentation pj which is probably even more important to the manufacturers.
TI definitely charges (or did charge) more money for HD2 chips used in FP versus RP. It was a substaintal difference of about 2X. (I never got exact numbers just a general idea of the ratio). EDIT: MAYBE TI has dropped their tiered marketing structure for chip prices for the xHD3.
TI orginially slated xHD3 for RPTV use. Due to the minor issues I mentioned maybe they didn't think it was FP worthy.
But I guarantee, if TI is selling to chips to BenQ they have to go in to their intended product. BenQ might have to be the ones who modify the RP chips for FP use, but I'm sure TI knows where the chips are going.
No loopholes.
-Mr. Wigggles
DaViD Boulet
07-16-04, 01:29 PM
Then that definitely points to option "B" as I'm sure the other manufacturers are well aware of what's going on and not about to be left out of the 1080P DLP race.
If BenQ is working on it...so are the rest...
Good times ahead :-)
darinp2
07-16-04, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by MrWigggles
TI has dropped their tiered marketing structure for chip prices for the xHD3.
TI orginially slated xHD3 for RPTV use. Due to the minor issues I mentioned maybe they didn't think it was FP worthy.It would seem like dropping the tiered pricing could be a sign that there will be some difficulties for FP and they wouldn't mind somebody else helping solve them. If TI had everything worked out for using these in FP my guess is that they would keep the tiered pricing. I doubt they would drop it out of the goodness of their hearts. Then I think the next question is, "If the xHD3 isn't the next HT FP chip with full TI support stepping up from the HD2+, then what is?" If TI's roadmap for single chip HT FP projectors didn't have the xHD3 going in for a long time, then it would seem that they would have had an interim product on their roadmap for this crowd.
--Darin
MrWigggles
07-16-04, 02:54 PM
Darin,
Some days I just can't write what I am thinking. I have a really bad habbit of dropping modifiers. Usually, if I have to edit my message that is the reason.
I meant: MAYBE TI has dropped their tiered marketing structure for xHD3 chip prices.
I was so certain of what I originally wrote that I thought you actually modified my wording in your response. I was just about to correct you.
Oh, brother sometimes Fridays are like Mondays.
-Mr. Wigggles
AnthonyP
07-16-04, 03:02 PM
I can see it now
TI: is that a xHD3 projector
BenQ: no
T: but it looks like an xHD3
B: no it does not
T: but it looks like it is higher resolution
B: it's our new technique that makes an HD2 look good
T: the pixel lines also look diagonal
B: That's because we rotated the chip
.......
kind of like the parrot skit from Monty python.
Palladin
07-16-04, 07:41 PM
Hopefully, TI has or will overcome that artiifacting present on the xhd3 rptv I saw at the HE Expo in NY, by the time the chip ships to BenQ. Don't even want to think about how that would look on a BIG screen.
________________________________________________
Palladin
No matter where you go, there you are
anthonymoody
07-17-04, 09:25 AM
Palladin,
Sorry I missed your original description of the artifacting you saw on the RPTV, but could you elaborate here?
Also, OT, catch the SG season premiere and the SG-A series premiere?
TM
MrWigggles
07-17-04, 10:07 AM
Palladin,
The xHD3 that was on display at CES had some mild MPEG-macro-blocking looking artifact which could have been from the source material easilly.
I don't think anyone watching thought it had major issues unless the source material was actually pristine and all of the artifacts were actually in the display. (I don't think TI had a high-bitrate source BTW)
This in itself brings up a good point. With any of these 1080p displays we are going to need top notch source material 24-7, with a standard ATSC bitrate source, the only way to compare two displays is to run them at the same time with the same signal input.
-Mr. Wigggles
Palladin
07-17-04, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by MrWigggles
The xHD3 that was on display at CES had some mild MPEG-macro-blocking looking artifact which could have been from the source material easilly.
I don't think anyone watching thought it had major issues unless the source material was actually pristine and all of the artifacts were actually in the display. (I don't think TI had a high-bitrate source BTW)
This in itself brings up a good point. With any of these 1080p displays we are going to need top notch source material 24-7, with a standard ATSC bitrate source, the only way to compare two displays is to run them at the same time with the same signal input.
Well, that was the nice thing about the demo at the HE Expo, as there were two other units running off the same signal simultaneously. A Sony direct-view on the left of the Samsung, and the Toshiba LCOS rptv on the right. Neither of the other two had the artifacts I'm referring to, so I wouldn't think it was source-related, but might be attributable to some factor other than the chipset. It actually did look a little like macro-blocking, but with a honeycomb/diamond-like pattern blotch and colored 'sparklies' in the artifact, more pronounced at the edges. Wasn't consistent, and only lasted for about 5-15 seconds each time it appeared. Took up about 10% of the screen. Made me wonder if it might be related to the cables or a compatibility issue. Does this sound like the same artifact you saw?
Tried to see a lot in the very limited time I was at the show, so I'm not positive any longer if the feed was off a D5 server or a DVHS. Since the demos were oriented to the press, I'd think TI would probably want to put their best foot forward, so I'm leaning toward the server.
Slightly OT, but I think if TI is going to wait two more years to introduce a "full" (1920 x 1080) fp chip, there'll still be able to sell plenty, but will be forced to play 'catch-up' ball in the market, as well as lose many of the early adopters. IMO, they should re-think that timetable, despite the fact its probably carved in stone.
Tony, I'll catch up with you later on the SG stuff, as I'm not sure the two-hour 'bloated' premieres were a fair indication of what to expect.
_______________________________________________
Palladin
No matter where you go, there you are
Greg Young
07-17-04, 05:32 PM
Lets hope if BenQ comes out with a hd 1080p others will do the same soon. Greg
Palladin
07-18-04, 04:45 PM
Lets hope if BenQ comes out with a hd 1080p others will do the same soon.
IIRC, according to Josh (DocDvd) in one of the Qualia threads, Sharp has the Z20000 1080 coming down the pike sometime this year. If the TI 'full' chip won't be happening until 2006, then apparently Sharp is planning something similar to BenQ (or have jumped on the LCOS 1080 bandwagon very, very quietly :D ). If cracks start to develop in the dam, I’d expect the other TI partners to follow suit.
__________________________________________________
Palladin
No matter where you go, there you are
gotapex
07-18-04, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by AnthonyP
I can see it now
TI: is that a xHD3 projector
BenQ: no
T: but it looks like an xHD3
B: no it does not
T: but it looks like it is higher resolution
B: it's our new technique that makes an HD2 look good
T: the pixel lines also look diagonal
B: That's because we rotated the chip
.......
kind of like the parrot skit from Monty python.
Actually, I think BenQ has a few Jedi working for them.
"These are not the xHD3 chips you're looking for..."
inky blacks
07-18-04, 09:09 PM
BenQ could make a 720 by 1280 3 chipper and undersell the rest as well.
IB
MrWigggles
07-19-04, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by Palladin
IIRC, according to Josh (DocDvd) in one of the Qualia threads, Sharp has the Z20000 1080 coming down the pike sometime this year. If the TI 'full' chip won't be happening until 2006, then apparently Sharp is planning something similar to BenQ (or have jumped on the LCOS 1080 bandwagon very, very quietly :D ). If cracks start to develop in the dam, I’d expect the other TI partners to follow suit.
__________________________________________________
Palladin
No matter where you go, there you are
That is the only place I have heard about the Sharp Z20000.
-Mr. Wigggles
MrWigggles
07-19-04, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by inky blacks
BenQ could make a 720 by 1280 3 chipper and undersell the rest as well.
IB
I don't think 3-chip 720p is going to sell well once 1-chip 1080p is available.
Even if someone notices 1-chip artifacts, they are more than likely going to enjoy the added pixel count and lower price.
Except for brightness I don't see a big advantage of 3-chip.
If BenQ comes out with a 1080p display and the other DLP manufacturers don't for the sake of protecting their 3-chip 720p units, it will be a big bonus for BenQ.
If anyone announces a xHD3 projector at Cedia, other manufacturers are going to have to follow suit, like it or not.
-Mr. Wigggles
MrWigggles
07-19-04, 02:24 AM
Palladin,
The artifacts at CES were mild little twitter type artifacts happening on a consistant basis. (Once, again could be MPEG problems). I didn't notice any 10% of the screen "drop outs" where part of the image just crapped out while the rest looked good.
-Mr. Wigggles
I don't think 3-chip 720p is going to sell well once 1-chip 1080p is available.
I think this really depends on the price, if 1080p DMDs were available for FP you can bet that prices for 1280*720 would drop significantly.
I think that there are people who would prefer 720p 3-chippers over 1080p single chippers, if both were comparable in price...
Peter
Originally posted by Ohlson
This leads to a couple of questions.
1 Do rptv get lesser electronics compared with front projection?
2 Is it an optical difference to the dmds? I guess a tv has a different engine from a front projector.
I think the main difference is how felxible you have to be around the waist if you want to use the chips in a FP product.
Originally posted by JJay
I was wondering how the relationship between TI and the manufacturers works. When TI sells them the chips, do the contracts dictate what use they are for? Is it possible that TI won't sell the xHD3 chips for front pj use yet?
Someone I consider "reliable" in the industry told me Samsung has an exclusive on xHD3 and HD3 for some time, he would not say how long. Samsung is also, again allegedly, fabbing the parts as well.
I saw a Sammy HD3 set and thought it sucked. Yeah, the mirrors were rotated 45 degrees and the screen door was pretty much non existant but the image blew. Smeared, bland, quantized clay likie colors as if attacked by over agressive noise reduction. This was on an HDNet feed. I assume it was in some sort of retard-o-vision showroom floor demo mode and could be tweaked into goodness by one bearing a clue, IE: the Clue Bearer.
I don't know what the difference is between RP and FP light engines but even the lowest end FP unit outperfroms all of these mass market RP units.
"Samsung is also, again allegedly, fabbing the parts as well."
That sure seems unlikely. And, if nothing else, I really don't believe they are fabbing the "superstructure."
Mark
mcneilms
01-17-05, 08:48 AM
What ever happened to this Benq xHD3?
darinp2
01-17-05, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by mcneilms
What ever happened to this Benq xHD3?
Maybe it never existed. They seem to be working on the 7700 and 8720 (DarkChip3) right now.
--Darin
rmostad
01-17-05, 03:18 PM
Since the mirror count is so close isn't one of the obvious uses of the xHD3/4 in a three chip projector? I know it would require a new light engine as the light path will be quite a bit different. I don't know if the new angles will make the engine any easier to create but with a wobulation mirror that went at 240 Hz or possibly higher and or variable rate (to sync to different fps) could make for a very very nice projector. I can't see this sort of projector being much higher in price than a 3 chip HD2 or HD2+. It suddenly doesn't seem so bad paying 30 grand for a 3 chip DLP if it can do 1080p.
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