Meridian G68 vs Lexicon MC12

[darrylp]

For HT use exclusively I've narrowed my choices down to either a Meridian G68 or a Lexicon MC12b V3 with comparatively little price differential.

I'm able to audition the Lexicon in my HT but due to limited availability of the relatively new G68 I cannot obtain one to test.

Whilst I realize that the Lexicon has more inputs and facilities I'd appreciate opinions as well as comments from anybody who's heard them both.

Darryl

[thebland]

I owned a 565 for years. Loved it. Looked at the G 68. Bought the MC-12. I am pretty happy. It wast he Meridian's more complicated GUI that led me astray. THe one advantage of the Meridian, howver, is you can access options like center level up/down, depth, surround levels while viewing a movie. No chance with the Lex without needing to scroll thru many menus or via the on screen menu.

Bottom line there are differences but none earth shattering. You won't lose with either.

[Alimental]

I haven't heard a G68, but the 568 is beautiful sounding. I like the G68's seemingly unlimited modularity on the rear panel [sigh] and the fact that it will probably still exist in 5 or 10 years in the same chassis. I'm not sure how you could be worried about the imput limitations. It looks like you could hook up 12-15 devices on there including three 5.1 discrete sources, 10 digital and another 4 or 5 analog. Lexicon looks a little easier to use, but it from the outside looking in, it seems like Meridian is at least trying to make them easier.

[anthonymoody]

Not that there's a ton of extra room on the back of the Lex (though there's some...) but regardless of how you spin the modularity of the G68, I don't see how you're going to be able to add other i/o (e.g. HDMI switching) on that thing - at least not w/o losing something else..at least based on examination of the rear panel.

TM

[sfogg]

"No chance with the Lex without needing to scroll thru many menus or via the on screen menu."

You can access anything like that with RS-232 commands if you use a control system.

Shawn

[Joseph MAK]

Darryl,

You are aware that Lexicon 12B V3 doesn't come with room correction, don't you? If you want room correction, you may consider the V4 software.

I believe G68 comes with room correction.


I also live in Sydney but I am not aware there is any Lexicon dealer in Sydney. Where did you see Lexicon in Sydney?


Cheers,

Joseph

[darrylp]

The reason I'm worried about the input limitations is that I have four HD tuners, three PVRs, a cable box and a DVD player all feeding a Marantz S3.

The DVD unit and one HD tuner signals are via DVI and the others are currently connected via RGB and component and all with optical sound inputs.

I try and use the best quality inputs and connections and I won't be able to do all this in the same manner with the G68.

I'm aware of the room correction advantage with the G68 and it's very important to me.

Joseph

The Lexicon Australian agent and Sydney dealer (same group of companies) is:

http://www.audioconnection.com.au/intro_f.asp

They've Lexicon in stock and are very helpful but I'm going to purcahse the G68 tomorrow as amongst other reasons the MC12b will cost me about 25% more and that's without the V.4 room correction system

Darryl

[rblnr]

I own the G68 and owned a MC12B -- I think the G68 sounds noticeably better, particularly on music. Room correction is useful and the interface of the G68 is much improved over the 5 series, although I miss the Lex's OSD; easier than straining to read the onboard display -- I think its (MC12) interface is still a little better, although if your not adverse to hooking up the G to a computer, you can do some interesting things.

In the States I think the Lex. is generally available for less than the G.

[darrylp]

Thanks for the info.

The MRP for the MC12b is US$3000 more here and with V4 about US$7000 more.

I'm going with a G68 tomorrow morning.

Darryl

[comxpert]

Congrats DarrylP!
I feel lucky for myself with the Krell Showcase 7.1. It has both room correction and the separate bass/sub/front/rear/center control that you can adjust directly on the remote. The krell sounds fantastic. I've tried Meridian G68 and also liked it very much.

[darrylp]

Thanks again comxpert

Darryl

[darrylp]

Installed the G68 and I'm speechless! Just an unbelievable result and improvement.

We only had time to do one RC attempt today but already the results are spectacular.

Very happy with my decision and purchase.

Darryl

[Enigma]

Congratualtions! Between that and a Plinius amp you have quite a setup. You probably posted earlier, but if so I've forgotten: what speakers are you using?

[comxpert]

Originally posted by darrylp
Installed the G68 and I'm speechless! Just an unbelievable result and improvement.

We only had time to do one RC attempt today but already the results are spectacular.

Very happy with my decision and purchase.

Darryl

What do you think about waiting too long to get a separate pre/pro?

Do you ever think that the flagship Denon receiver is a total waste of your time and money now? For me I don't have a hard time switching from receiver to separate.

[BruceOmega]

darrylp,

When you get a chance, would you please comment on before and after impressions of RC?

Thanks
Bruce

[darrylp]

Enigma

I'm using the top of the range Def Techs and a Velodyne HGS15.

Comxpert

The Denon has a very definite function and place in the market. Also it has many many great features.

It wouldn't be fair for me to compare the Denon to any other preamp and amp as I've installed a very expensive preamp with Room Correction facilities together with an equally expensive amp.

Also the preamp I'm using has balanced outputs which are recommended for the Plinius so I'd certainly not knock the Denon as there are just too many variables in the comparison.

BruceOmega

Unfortunately, last night (in Sydney its now 8.56am) I didn't have time to set up the system RC system properly and only did one brief run at it but suffice it say I've had so many problems with my very difficult room and room treatments that I was actually considering getting rid of the speakers which I've only had for three months!

Now they're already exceeding all my wildest expectations.

Darryl

[comxpert]

Originally posted by darrylp

Comxpert

The Denon has a very definite function and place in the market. Also it has many many great features.

It wouldn't be fair for me to compare the Denon to any other preamp and amp as I've installed a very expensive preamp with Room Correction facilities together with an equally expensive amp.

Also the preamp I'm using has balanced outputs which are recommended for the Plinius so I'd certainly not knock the Denon as there are just too many variables in the comparison.

Now they're already exceeding all my wildest expectations.

Darryl

I understand what you are saying. I've owned Yamaha flagship receiver before. A flagship receiver is not cheap compared to a separate pre/pro when you already have a top notch outboard amp. I think the improvement you'll get with the separate pre/pro is so huge that it will be worth every extra $.

[Joseph MAK]

Darrylp,

I have sent you a PM.


Cheers,

Joseph

[richmond5]

Darryl:
I know you said G68 is such a impressive unit which has already exceed all your wildest expectation. Back to comparing with MC-12. From your opinion, how do the two unit compared? I am in a similar situation of wanting to go from Lexicon camp to Meridian camp. I was expecting to give up some of the surround experiences for some of the higher analog audio qulaity from Meridian. Am I right to make such a judgement? Anybodies feel free to input! Thanks in advance!


Alex

[musicphile]

If you are looking for a better 2-channel analog playback, then add a good 2 ch preamp w/ a processor loop and you will have best of both worlds. No pre-pro can match a dedicated 2 ch preamp in sound quality that would cost about half as much as the pre-pro. If you are in to multi channel analog, then in the analog bypass mode (I am assuming that you have MC-12 which does have analog bypass), the differences between these two pre-pros are not significant (in fact you will be surprised with the results on this, I was and I did the true A/B with the 861v3 vs MC-12 v3 and then decided to add a 2 ch preamp in the loop), you will be using your players' DACs. There are many good solid state as well as tube and hybrid 2 ch preamps out there. What is your budget?

[darrylp]

Alex

As good as the Meridian is for music mine will be used 98% for HT and I liked the particular sound that this preamp produces.

No doubt that musicphile makes some valid points but to each his own.

Darryl

[glimmer]

To Richmond5

I, too went to audition the G68. One word: awesome! and felt it was better in 2 channel than the Lex.

But, if I could recall correctly, the G68 can play only DVD-A but not SACD?
While the Lex could do both.

Can anyone verify this?

[sfogg]

"But, if I could recall correctly, the G68 can play only DVD-A but not SACD?
While the Lex could do both."

Not really. The Meridian has a 5.1 input like the Lexicon. The Meridian converts the signal to digital for processing and possibly distributing to Meridian digital speakers. You can plug either a DVD-A or SACD player into the 5.1 input on the Meridian.

The MC-12 also has a 5.1 input and it too allows the signal to be converted to digital and processed. In addition if desired the Lex. can be configured for the 5.1 input to be a straight analog bypass with just levels and volume control on the signal.

Shawn

[glimmer]

Shawn,

The showroom that I went had actually setup an all Meridian stuff, including the active speakers, including the source...

I was wondering if the G68 would sound (for better or worse) if other components like the power amps, speakers are not Meridian made...

I assumed that there must be some kind of a proprietary advantages if one stick all components to a single manufacturer, like in this case all Meridian.

Is my assumption accurate? What would be the advantages over the mix and match combo or vice versa?

Sorry, am a bit long winded and new to such toys..:D

[sfogg]

" I assumed that there must be some kind of a proprietary advantages if one stick all components to a single manufacturer, like in this case all Meridian. "

In this case your advantage would be in running digitial to the speakers. The downside of course is if you are mostly locked into a Meridian front end if you wanted to keep the Meridian speakers.

" I was wondering if the G68 would sound (for better or worse) if other components like the power amps, speakers are not Meridian made..."

That really will depend on your own tastes. You may love the Meridian speakers in which case a Meridian front end is a good idea.

If you prefer other speakers instead the Meridian speakers you can of course still mix and match that with a Meridian front end. That really is the point of seperates... keeping them seperate so you can mix and match depending upon your tastes.

Shawn

[Will Binegar]

I'm using a Meridian 568 with Pass Labs amps and Von Schweikert speakers and have been very happy with the sound.

[John Kotches]

Wow, lots of interest in discussing two of the great processor manufacturers out there...

In response to glimmer, I'm going to shamelessly cut and paste something I typed in another thread...

I've used the 568.2, 861v4 and might have toyed with a G68 all using non-Meridian loudspeakers. Some of the loudspeaker brands I've used are:

Soundline Audio (I used to own these) ELAC 200 Series (review) Magnepan (review) PSB (review) Eggleston Works (which I own)

As the speakers get better, the 861 sounds better :)

I've used Meridian players for DVD-A playback to Meridian processors to maintain digital path as long as possible. For sometimes obvious reasons, the analog output performance of their preamp/processors are overlooked in favor of the Meridian Digital Theatre concept. I certainly think that the DIgital Theatre is an elegant concept, and of tremendous merit. In early 2005, assuming schedules hold, I'm slated to review a full Meridian setup. I wish it was all DSP8000s, but alas that's just too big for the space I have. Smaller DSPs will be used but the world won't end

You could ostensibly replace them all with the G68 (ADV would be the most flexible option for you) with one caveat. Meridian processors are digital, so you will sample any analog input. This is very well done @ 24/96K and to me the added benefits are well worth the theoretical degradation you might have. You get far more back with bass management, time alignment and room correction than you might lose with the A/D conversion.

I'm not sure how much of this is germane, but I'm feeling lazy this PM.

[rblnr]

I use the G68 w/Llano amps and VMPS speakers and am happy w/the setup.

[jon g]

Is it possible to find dealers willing to discount the G68 as easily as it is to find dealers willing to discount the MC12?

There's a guy on ebay selling a new G68ADV w/o receipt or original box for $4800 (!!!!). I almost pulled the trigger, but am scared it's a stolen unit and won't be covered by Meridian's warranty service or upgradeable...

If anyone knows of a good Meridian dealer (my local one won't budge from full MSRP + tax), please PM me with the contact info.

[JonFo]

While a full digital theater is great in theory (and practice, a friend has one). My take is one can get as good or better results with your choice of speakers and amps.

In my case, I lean toward electrostatics, so I have a full Martin Logan setup on my 568.
They blow away any digital theater I've ever heard (including one with 3x DSP8K + 4x DSP5.5K at a dealer).

Just make sure you get a the best possible match of speaker /amps as well.

As for Meridian vs Lexi MC-12, a good friend of mine has a dedicated theater as well with Vendersteens and an MC-12B v3. It's a very nice piece and sounds great in his context. Easy to use as well. But sonicaly, I can't really say if better than the Meridian as the speakers as so different.
Th MC12 music modes are not quite the equal to Meridian's Trifield IMHO.

On movies, well, they both rock :)

[mattmarsden]

The brochure for the G68 says 6 stereo digital coax inputs. Presumable these will also take DD and DTS multichannel?

[John Kotches]

Matt:

Yes they will.

Cheers,

[gizlaroc]

Not quite the same comparrison here but similar, I had a 568.2 and sold it to go back to a Lexicon (Had a DC2 before and bought an MC8 this time).
I have run the MC8 since August, and while it is very good, I don't think it is in the same league as the Meridian. In fact I have just sold it and gone back to another 568.2 but this time also added a 598DP Player which I have to say is a superb combination sound wise, not excellent for picture but still very good.

I don't actually rate the bypass on the Lexicon, but I have only ever head it once properly on an MC12B and this comparing against the bypass on a Bryston SP1.7 which was far superior.
I was only using an Arcam DVD on the MC8 and actually preferred to let the Lex do its processing than bypass the Arcam, but it was only a DV89, so probably to be expected.

[thebland]

I owned a 565 Meridian for years....Never could do good surround - never holosonic. The Lexicon is fantastic for movies....

If you want two channel, I wouldn't be buying a surround processor as your main pre-amp. Me.....Audio Research.

[boomania]

I am considering a G68 or MC12B too and have just learned Meridian will shortly be offering a HDMI switching function for the G68 via an outboard box using a comms link.
Just to complicate things the Meridan is about half the cost of the MC12B V4EQ in the UK! In fact the G68 is even less than the MC8B.
I am a little worried about the meridians ease of use & software stability (or lack of it) relative to the Lexicon. I am only interested in HT as i have a seperate 2ch pre amp.
Has anyone heard of Lexicon supporting HDMI either onboard or with an external solution?

Great forum btw!

[rblnr]

The G68 is stable.

[sfogg]

"Has anyone heard of Lexicon supporting HDMI either onboard or with an external solution?"

For an external solution I have a box that integrates an external switcher with a pre-pro so they work together.

http://www.switch-box.com

Shawn

[boomania]

Thank you! What a great idea. If i go down the Lexicon route i may be in touch!

[John Kotches]

Jeff,

And the 565 (a > 10 year old processor) is relevant to this discussion in what way? Seriously, how exactly is this relevant. The 565 was replaced by the 561 and 568 in the 5xx series, and now the G68 is the current product. You think that Meridian hasn't learned a few things since its introduction in 1994? What was the Lexicon equivalent from 1994? I fully expect a product introduced 7 years (or more) later to have sonic improvements.

I won't get into a childish "my processor's better than your's" match of personal preference, but if you're going to talk about something bring up a relevant product comparison.

[John Kotches]

boomania,

I often hear this statement about various products: Good for movies, not for music.

The last time I checked, a very large component of movie soundtracks is music. It can set or adjust emotional tone as necessary. So (at least to me) the cliche` is completely incorrect, unless you're listening to sound effects and dialogue tracks in isolation. What would films like Gladiator, Star Wars, The Sixth Sense or many others be without their music? They wouldn't have nearly the same impact.

To me a surround processor has to be able to handle the musical details of a soundtrack with at least the same skill as the dialogue and (IMO) better skill than the SFX.

I will tell you that the Meridian setup is a bit more complex than the Lexicon's but you should expect that your dealer provides assistance and training in the setup.

There's a community dedicated to Meridian, called The Hitchhiker's Guide to Meridian (http://www.meridianunplugged.com) and one dedicated to Lexicon on the SMR Forums, Section 4 (http://forums.smr-forums.com:8080/guests).

Meridian does not formally participate on the HH Guide, but it is my understanding that Lexicon does on SMR (I can't speak to experience with the Lexicon forum).

In the end, nothing short of an in home audition of both will answer the question of which solution is right for you though.

Best,

[sfogg]

John,

"The last time I checked, a very large component of movie soundtracks is music. It can set or adjust emotional tone as necessary. So (at least to me) the cliche` is completely incorrect, unless you're listening to sound effects and dialogue tracks in isolation. What would films like Gladiator, Star Wars, The Sixth Sense or many others be without their music? They wouldn't have nearly the same impact."

I agree.

But there are differences between how processors handle the music and movies aspects of course. A two channel die hard for music used can't use that for multi-channel movies. Ditto modes that are specific to 2 channel source music alone such as Trifield.

Shawn

[sfogg]

boomania,

Thanks, let me know if you need more info on it. It will work with more then Lexicon's too. I built it to be configurable for many different pre-pros out there.

Shawn

[John Kotches]

Shawn,

Well there's nothing stopping you (or me) from applying Logic-7 Movie or Trifield respectively to a true stereo movie track (as opposed to a Dolby Stereo) track.

Neat tool, that Universal translator. Can you send me an e-mail, I have something I need to return to you ;-)

Best,

[gizlaroc]

The 568.2 gave better results with movies than the MC8 did, all this Meridian is good for music not so good for movies is nonsense.

When playing at reference level my wife always told me to turn it down, with the Meridian nothing is ever said, it has a very open and extremely detailed sound that never gets tiring.
The Lexicon was great with all its video switching, but I just used a Zektor switcher with the 568.2 which will learn the meridian remote codes so it is totally seemless.

[Paul Hayward]

Hello John,

Oddly enough I still own the 565 Meridian processor which works very well in my environment. I have listened to a G68 at a friends house and both of us preferred the sound especially on music of the 'old' 565. For some reason it sounded smoother and less edgy inspite of our attempts to tame the sound. Of course this is in know way conclusive, but Jeff 'the Bland' is making some pertinent comparisons here. Just because something is old does not neccessarily mean that the new replacements are always better. I also owned a Lexican MC1 breifly and while I love the Meridian Trifield for music, I badly missed and still miss that Lexicons holographic surround sound. This friend of mine has recently purchased the MC12 to go with his full active 7.1 surround sound system and the Lexicon sounds utterly fantastic with music and film. All this has got me thinking about Lexicon again and which model to consider. There is nothing like envy to bring out the HiFi/Home Theater obsessions all over again.

Regards,

Paul H

[sfogg]

John,

"Well there's nothing stopping you (or me) from applying Logic-7 Movie or Trifield respectively to a true stereo movie track (as opposed to a Dolby Stereo) track."

Nothing stopping me from applying 5.1 Logic 7 against a true multi-channel soundtrack (DD/DTS/SACD/DVD-A) either. ;)

"Neat tool, that Universal translator. "

Thanks, I'm hoping others find it useful. I'll send you a PM.

Shawn

[sfogg]

Paul,

" All this has got me thinking about Lexicon again and which model to consider."

Fire away if you want to know the differences between them or jump over to SMR to ask there too.

At the moment the MC-12 has the most advanced version of 5.1 L7 out of all the other Lexicon's. It just was updated in the v5 software upgrade which was just released. This version will steer out a center channel and surrounds from information contained in the front L/Rs. Just the thing to get a center channel active on multi-channel music that doesn't use the center in the mix or to pull out additional surround info on movies with little activity back there or to get surround info from 3 channel music mixes.

Shawn

[John Kotches]

Paul,

Jeff and I rarely agree on anything related to sound reproduction, so I wouldn't worry about this too much ;)

From what you've posted, you've listened to 565 and G68 in different environments, with different associated gear. How do you draw any worthwhile conclusion from this comparison when the room and speakers are such huge factors in the overall sound that you hear?

When I make these comparisons, I'm keeping the room and the associated gear as constants.

Cheers,

[Paul Hayward]

Hi John,

Your points are absolutely right. My room is something like 12ft wide by 22ft long. My good buddy Graham has a 32ft by 18ft football pitch of a room with remote curtains, lighting and audio/video driven by a Crestron...all very sickening of course. His projector is a three chip SIM2 HT500+ firing onto a 10ft wide screen and the sonics are now ceurtesy of the Lexicon MC12. When we listened to the G68 coupled with a Meridian transport, the speakers were the huge 7ft Dunlevy fronts and their gigantic center speaker with Dunlevy 4's at the rear, all driven by Roland monoblock amps. The stereo front end went through a $12,000 digital upconverter whose name escapes me. So I guess with components like these, you would not expect a particularly edgy sound. And yet, there is was. I am sure with work this could have been modified. All these comonents have been replaced recently with three ATC 300's along the front end, two pairs of ATC 50's at the rear and the ATC sub for the full 7.1 monte. The various banks of amplifiers are housed in their own 'amplier room' with proper ventilation. Various CD and DVD players are now being arditioned and the sound is the clearest, vivid, most natural and most dynamic I have EVER heard. It is incredible. All this makes my system sound positively muddy. However, it is the holosonic wrap and lively steering in logic7 that the MC12 seems to excel at. This strongly remends me of what I loved about my earlier Lexicon. Hence the reassessing of my trusty old 565. Hmmmm. I will give it some more thought and as Shawn kindly recommends, I will 'fire away' with the questions.

Regards,

Paul H

[John Kotches]

Paul,

We're all certainly entitled to our own opinions, and I happen to prefer the Meridian sound, which I consider to be wide open and extended on both the G68 (which I've reviewed) and the 861 (which I own). I've paid quite a but of attention to properly placed absorption and diffusion, bass traps and five identical speakers (Eggleston Fontaine IIs). I've gone for flat response and appropriate RT60, which is (admittedly) at the low end of the target for a room of my size. As an aside, my room is nearly identical in dimensions to yours.

There is by the way plenty of room for differing opinion out there, and that's exactly why there are outstanding products from the likes of Meridian, Lexicon, Theta et al -- we can each find the particular solution that makes us happy.

Best,

[gizlaroc]

[QUOTE=Paul Hayward] ..............When we listened to the G68 coupled with a Meridian transport, the speakers were the huge 7ft Dunlevy fronts and their gigantic center speaker with Dunlevy 4's at the rear, all driven by Roland monoblock amps. The stereo front end went through a $12,000 digital upconverter whose name escapes me. So I guess with components like these, you would not expect a particularly edgy sound. And yet, there is was.
[/QUOTE]

To be fair when I tried the G68 I thought it was no where near as smooth as the 568.2, so went with the MC8. However ended up back with another 568.2 and a pocket that was a few £k lighter! :rolleyes:
I would like to hear a V5 MC12B though.


Hmm, not many people with the Dunlavys in the UK, did he have is centre mounted in a perculiar way until sold recently? (I won't say any more than that :) )

[Paul Hayward]

Hi John,

As a meridian processor lover myself, I would be surprised if the G68 was truly sharp. Meridian pride themselves on a very fluid, transparent and open sound and I have no doubt that this processor can really sing when properly set up. We did not really work at it.

Hello gizaroc,

Me thinks we might have met up at Grahams. The center was indeed 'uniquely' positioned hanging off the ceiling and angled down by a cushion sandwiched between the speaker and the ceiling at the front. If you were the purchaser, then you will have heard the ATC 150's which sounded rather hard and somewhat unmusical to my ears compared to the Dunlavy's. His new ATC 300's are SO different, much warmer but with tremendous clarity. If you are the purchaser, then I'm sure Graham will be delighted to demo his system to you if you are in the area. You owe it to yourself to have a listen. It is truly amazing.

Regards,

Paul H

[Armin2]

Paul H,
ATC-150 didin't sound hard and unmusical. Never ever, had it at home and was more then surprised by what i got.
The complete System 6 from ATC (build around the SCM 50), i had the chance to life with for about 6 month in a 7.1 setup with 4 SCM-50 was so good, that i never thought to get it topped, the 150 does by far.

Best
Armin

[gizlaroc]

[QUOTE=Paul Hayward]Hello gizlaroc,

Me thinks we might have met up at Grahams. The center was indeed 'uniquely' positioned hanging off the ceiling and angled down by a cushion sandwiched between the speaker and the ceiling at the front. If you were the purchaser, then you will have heard the ATC 150's which sounded rather hard and somewhat unmusical to my ears compared to the Dunlavy's. His new ATC 300's are SO different, much warmer but with tremendous clarity. If you are the purchaser, then I'm sure Graham will be delighted to demo his system to you if you are in the area. You owe it to yourself to have a listen. It is truly amazing.

Regards,

Paul H[/QUOTE]


Hi Paul,

no I wasn't the purchaser, but, James and Gav called me when they left his house and said "we just popped in to have a quick look and we eneded up staying most of the evening, 2 really nice guys, who just really enjoy their home theater"

I know James said he would definitely be interested to hear what how the ATC's compared to the Dunnys, I think he thought he was mad! :D

Guy

[blazeby]

I have the same dilemma as the original poster. Lexicon or Meridian. It will be purely for MC in my case (HT and DVD-A/SACD) as I have a separate 2 channel pre-amp for 2 channel music.

After a lot of time reading, posting, and listening I decided the best way for me was to get both machines into my system and try them at home for a week or two.


I'll have both machines next week.

[AcuraCL]

[QUOTE=John Kotches]...We're all certainly entitled to our own opinions, and I happen to prefer the Meridian sound, which I consider to be wide open and extended on both the G68 (which I've reviewed) and the 861 (which I own)...[/QUOTE]
And how about the other units that still go 'round on the used market?

How do the 568, 565 and 561 fit into the order of things?

Just curious about how you'd quickly rate these units as viable processors today.

[sfogg]

"I'll have both machines next week."

Nice, have fun with them.

If you have setup questions or are looking for tips/tweaks on the units be sure to visit the Meridian forum at:

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=6

and the Lexicon forum at:

http://forums.smr-forums.com

Is the MC-12 a v5 unit?

Shawn

[blazeby]

[QUOTE=sfogg]"I'll have both machines next week."

Nice, have fun with them.

If you have setup questions or are looking for tips/tweaks on the units be sure to visit the Meridian forum at:

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=6

and the Lexicon forum at:

http://forums.smr-forums.com

Is the MC-12 a v5 unit?

Shawn[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the tips Shawn. I know those forums well as I've been agonizing over this decision for a while! :)

The Lexicon is a MC-8B and the Meridian is a G68J.

[Bent L]

[QUOTE=blazeby]I have the same dilemma as the original poster. Lexicon or Meridian. It will be purely for MC in my case (HT and DVD-A/SACD) as I have a separate 2 channel pre-amp for 2 channel music.

After a lot of time reading, posting, and listening I decided the best way for me was to get both machines into my system and try them at home for a week or two.


I'll have both machines next week.[/QUOTE]
Have Yoy some first Impression; because I think about a G68J or a Lexicon MC-4, I'm not sure about Meridian's lack of bypass.

[blazeby]

[QUOTE=Bent L]Have Yoy some first Impression; because I think about a G68J or a Lexicon MC-4, I'm not sure about Meridian's lack of bypass.[/QUOTE]

I only have the Lexicon so far (the Meridian will arive on Thursday).

The Lex is superb for movies so far and seems to exact more detail (particulary from the surrounds) than my previous processor (Integra Research RDC7). Handling of surround movement is also excellent. Two channel music is not so good IMO (even in bypass mode), but as I can use a dedicated 2-channel pre-amp, this is of little concern for me. Not had a chance to try the Lexicon with DVD-A/SACD yet, will do that over the next few days.

[gizlaroc]

I found the meridian 568.2 v2.5 sounded better with an Arcam cd92 than the Lexicon did whilst in bypass mode. Not sure if that would still be the same with a better player/dac?

I loved the lex for movies, but as I have one system for both I went back to meridian.

[Bent L]

I's because I have a Audia CD One, and don't need a god converter for CD, I prefer bypass mode for listening to CD whit my Audia; so maybe the Lex is god enough for me; but that is not so good about the bypass mode in the Lex

[gizlaroc]

You really need to try them both, there is bypass and there is bypass, the Bryston bypass mode is really good.

Even though the meridian gear process' everything it has an uncanny ability to let the source sound exactly like it is, if that makes sense? You can really hear subtle differences between different bits of kit.

[blazeby]

[QUOTE=gizlaroc]I found the meridian 568.2 v2.5 sounded better with an Arcam cd92 than the Lexicon did whilst in bypass mode. Not sure if that would still be the same with a better player/dac?

I loved the lex for movies, but as I have one system for both I went back to meridian.[/QUOTE]


I'll be getting a Meridian G68 for comparision this week. Both pre-pros will be hooked up to an Audio Aero - I'm looking forward to finding out what comes out on top.

I tried the Lex for MC music today and found it did very well. It's interesting, to me, that it does so well with MC, but not so well with stereo, IMO.

[sfogg]

"I tried the Lex for MC music today and found it did very well. It's interesting, to me, that it does so well with MC, but not so well with stereo, IMO."

Try processing your two channel music (gasp) with Logic 7 Music or Logic 7 Music Surround.

Shawn

[blazeby]

[QUOTE=sfogg]"I tried the Lex for MC music today and found it did very well. It's interesting, to me, that it does so well with MC, but not so well with stereo, IMO."

Try processing your two channel music (gasp) with Logic 7 Music or Logic 7 Music Surround.

Shawn[/QUOTE]


Shawn -

I did try that. Logic 7 is quite superb, and almost reason enough to justify a Lexicon alone.

I still prefer regular two-channel via an 'old fashioned' stereo pre-amp.

[sfogg]

"I still prefer regular two-channel via an 'old fashioned' stereo pre-amp."

Any particular areas you didn't like about it? It is very tunable so if you had a specific area you didn't like it might be able to be adjusted.

The other mode to try is Panorama. Be sure to calibrate it first though to get the intended effect.

Have fun,

Shawn

[blazeby]

[QUOTE=sfogg]"I still prefer regular two-channel via an 'old fashioned' stereo pre-amp."

Any particular areas you didn't like about it? It is very tunable so if you had a specific area you didn't like it might be able to be adjusted.

The other mode to try is Panorama. Be sure to calibrate it first though to get the intended effect.

Have fun,

Shawn[/QUOTE]


Shawn,

To tell you the truth, I just prefer the sound to come from the front instead of all around me - it's sorta like being at a live event - the musicians are on stage in front of you, not all around you.

I'll definetely give panarama a try though...

[sdurani]

[QUOTE=blazeby]I just prefer the sound to come from the front instead of all around me - it's sorta like being at a live event - the musicians are on stage in front of you, not all around you.[/QUOTE]If the live event is indoors, chances are that less than 50% of what you're hearing is the direct sound of the musicians in front of you. Most of a live performance is heard from all around you in the form of reflections.

Best,
Sanjay

[sfogg]

"To tell you the truth, I just prefer the sound to come from the front instead of all around me - it's sorta like being at a live event - the musicians are on stage in front of you, not all around you."

What did you play that moved the musicians all around you? L7 won't usually do that, what it does it spread the ambiance around you... just like the hall does at a live event. Guess this is one of those YMMV things as L7 sounds more like what I hear at a live event then two channel ever has.

If you want a more frontal perspective though in Mode Adjustment set Soundstage to FRONT. That will shift your relative position in the hall more toward the stage which will reduce what you hear from the surrounds.

Two other adjustments you can try too. In Mode Adjustment go to the Delay Offset and try setting it to 0ms and also trying setting it very high up. Some people like it one way, some like it the other, some like it at the default of 10ms. Changing that changes how noticeable the surrounds are as seperate sources of sound. Likewise lowering the Surround Rolloff will cut more of the high end on the surrounds to make them less obvious.

The other things that can help a lot is 7 channels if you are currently using 5. IME the holes in the surround soundstage with 5 speakers was made all the more obvious with music in surround and it made it sound more obviously fake to me. With 7 channels those holes were gone and the realism jumped way up. But YMMV of course.

Panorama can be fun and it can work with only two speakers too. Its downside is the very narrow sweet spot when it is configured. It is sort of like Carver's Sonic Holograph but more advanced as it does a higher level of corrections and also adjusts to your speaker position (that is what the calibration does), not vice versa.

Have fun,

Shawn

[blazeby]

[QUOTE=sdurani]If the live event is indoors, chances are that less than 50% of what you're hearing is the direct sound of the musicians in front of you. Most of a live performance is heard from all around you in the form of reflections.

Best,
Sanjay[/QUOTE]


This is true. However, at an indoor event this is achieved via room acoustics, not sound processing.

[blazeby]

[QUOTE=sfogg]"To tell you the truth, I just prefer the sound to come from the front instead of all around me - it's sorta like being at a live event - the musicians are on stage in front of you, not all around you."

What did you play that moved the musicians all around you? L7 won't usually do that, what it does it spread the ambiance around you... just like the hall does at a live event. Guess this is one of those YMMV things as L7 sounds more like what I hear at a live event then two channel ever has.

If you want a more frontal perspective though in Mode Adjustment set Soundstage to FRONT. That will shift your relative position in the hall more toward the stage which will reduce what you hear from the surrounds.

Two other adjustments you can try too. In Mode Adjustment go to the Delay Offset and try setting it to 0ms and also trying setting it very high up. Some people like it one way, some like it the other, some like it at the default of 10ms. Changing that changes how noticeable the surrounds are as seperate sources of sound. Likewise lowering the Surround Rolloff will cut more of the high end on the surrounds to make them less obvious.

The other things that can help a lot is 7 channels if you are currently using 5. IME the holes in the surround soundstage with 5 speakers was made all the more obvious with music in surround and it made it sound more obviously fake to me. With 7 channels those holes were gone and the realism jumped way up. But YMMV of course.

Panorama can be fun and it can work with only two speakers too. Its downside is the very narrow sweet spot when it is configured. It is sort of like Carver's Sonic Holograph but more advanced as it does a higher level of corrections and also adjusts to your speaker position (that is what the calibration does), not vice versa.

Have fun,

Shawn[/QUOTE]


Shawn -

Thanks for the great tips - I'll be sure to try these suggestions out.

[sfogg]

"However, at an indoor event this is achieved via room acoustics, not sound processing."

Actually, it can be a combination of both depending upon what hall you are in.

http://www.lares-lexicon.com/welcome.html

"Thanks for the great tips - I'll be sure to try these suggestions out."

No problem, if you have any questions on how the other parameters work just let me know. There is lots of flexibility in there to 'season to taste.'

Shawn

[sdurani]

[QUOTE=blazeby]at an indoor event this is achieved via room acoustics, not sound processing[/QUOTE]It's usually a combination of both, the room and sound reinforcement technology (like the kind Shawn linked to). In either case the ambience you hear comes from all around you, which is difficult (if not impossible) to reproduce using only two speakers in front of you.

If your goal truly is to hear music "like being at a live event", then you ought experiment with some of the ambience extraction modes in the Lexicon. They can be dialed in to sound as subtle as your personal preferences dictate.

Best,
Sanjay

[blazeby]

[QUOTE=sdurani]It's usually a combination of both, the room and sound reinforcement technology (like the kind Shawn linked to). In either case the ambience you hear comes from all around you, which is difficult (if not impossible) to reproduce using only two speakers in front of you.

If your goal truly is to hear music "like being at a live event", then you ought experiment with some of the ambience extraction modes in the Lexicon. They can be dialed in to sound as subtle as your personal preferences dictate.

Best,
Sanjay[/QUOTE]

Room treatment has been around for ages and is employed by the major venues. This does not imply that digital sound processing is in play.

I'm not knocking Lexicon, just saying that I prefer my 2-channel pre-amp for stereo. This is not an unusual stance. I'll be sure to try Shawn's suggestions though.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread but going off topic.

[sdurani]

[QUOTE=blazeby]Room treatment has been around for ages and is employed by the major venues. This does not imply that digital sound processing is in play.[/quote]It's not room treatment but sound reinforcement that Shawn & I brought up; which, more often than not, is digital sound processing. My point was that whether the room ambience at a live event is purely acoustic or aided by DSP, the ambience and envelopment you hear comes from all around you, not just from in front of you. 2-speaker playback is ill-equipped to reproduce this because spatial cues in the recording will be heard from the wrong direction. I'm not knocking Lexicon, just saying that I prefer my 2-channel pre-amp for stereo.Your personal preference is not in question but rather your claim that 2-speaker playback is "like being at a live event" when in fact it is vastly different from how we hear live events. That's the only reason I posted in this thread. I don't want to hijack this thread but going off topic.It's not off topic: surround processing is an integral part of surround processors (hence the name), and even moreso if discussing Lexicon and Meridian processors (since proprietary surround processing is one of the major strengths of both companies).

Again, if unprocessed 2-speaker playback is your personal preference, then I have no problem with that. But hearing a sonic event between two arbitrary points in front of us shouldn't be confused with how we hear live events in real life.

Best,
Sanjay

[blazeby]

[QUOTE=sdurani]It's not room treatment but sound reinforcement that Shawn & I brought up; which, more often than not, is digital sound processing. My point was that whether the room ambience at a live event is purely acoustic or aided by DSP, the ambience and envelopment you hear comes from all around you, not just from in front of you. 2-speaker playback is ill-equipped to reproduce this because spatial cues in the recording will be heard from the wrong direction. Your personal preference is not in question but rather your claim that 2-speaker playback is "like being at a live event" when in fact it is vastly different from how we hear live events.
[/QUOTE]

I have to disagree. Are you saying a simple acoustic performance cannot be replicated with two speakers and appropriate room acoustics?

It's not off topic: surround processing is an integral part of surround processors (hence the name), and even moreso if discussing Lexicon and Meridian processors (since proprietary surround processing is one of the major strengths of both companies).


You misunderstood me, by off topic I meant my listening preferences, not the merits of surround processors.


Again, if unprocessed 2-speaker playback is your personal preference, then I have no problem with that. But hearing a sonic event between two arbitrary points in front of us shouldn't be confused with how we hear live events in real life.


Proper speaker placement is hardly 'two arbitrary points'. Anyone who understands acoustics can replicate the sonic signatures of live events. There is a big business in room treatment and acoustics, these people know what they are doing.

All I'm saying it from what I have heard from the Lexicon so far, a properly treated room with a high quality stereo set up sounds more natural to my ears. I haven't even tried all the options available to me yet as Shawn points out, so I am not writing off the Lexicon solution.

You haven't even asked me about the rest of my system. I have tubes in my CD a player and pre-amp, and the Lexicon (so far) cannot reproduce the fluidity of the pre-amp.

Wouldn't it make better sense to let me try all Shawn's tips first (and the Meridian solution), before calling into question the merits of a system I have not yet fully explored? I was simply giving a 'current status' of what I have found so far.

Btw, I do have one annoyance with the Lexicon. How do I program the volume control correctly for use with a Pronto? The Pronto learns it ok, but I have to keep hitting the Vol button to change volume (rather than just pressing the button once and not releasing it).

[sfogg]

", I do have one annoyance with the Lexicon. How do I program the volume control correctly for use with a Pronto? The Pronto learns it ok, but I have to keep hitting the Vol button to change volume (rather than just pressing the button once and not releasing it). "

That sounds like a Pronto learning issue. I have never had a problem teaching the volume commands to learning remotes though I have never tried it with a Pronto. On Remotecentral I believe there are some Lexicon files for Prontos... you might want to try one of them to see if that works for you. Or if you try teaching the command again when the Pronto is learning hold down the volume command on the Lex. remote instead of just touching it once.

Shawn

[blazeby]

[QUOTE=sfogg]", I do have one annoyance with the Lexicon. How do I program the volume control correctly for use with a Pronto? The Pronto learns it ok, but I have to keep hitting the Vol button to change volume (rather than just pressing the button once and not releasing it). "

That sounds like a Pronto learning issue. I have never had a problem teaching the volume commands to learning remotes though I have never tried it with a Pronto. On Remotecentral I believe there are some Lexicon files for Prontos... you might want to try one of them to see if that works for you. Or if you try teaching the command again when the Pronto is learning hold down the volume command on the Lex. remote instead of just touching it once.

Shawn[/QUOTE]

Did try re-learning a few times, but have the same problem. It's weird, as I've not had this issue in the past.

I did take a look at RemoteCentral, and will download a ccf to try this evening.

Thanks again,
Paul

[sfogg]

Paul,

"I did take a look at RemoteCentral, and will download a ccf to try this evening."

If the MC-8 CCF doesn't work try both the DC-2 and MC-1 CCFs. I believe the MC-8s codes are the same as one of them but I can't remember exactly which one it is. I *think* it is the DC-2 but don't know that for sure. If you get it backwards I think the volume controls will change the zones volume instead of the main volume.

Shawn

[blazeby]

Shawn -

Great idea - thanks.

Paul

[sdurani]

[QUOTE=blazeby]Are you saying a simple acoustic performance cannot be replicated with two speakers and appropriate room acoustics?[/quote]Exactly. With 2-speaker playback the recorded ambience is coming at you from the wrong direction and whatever energy is reflected gives you spatial cues of your listening room, not of the recording venue. Even if you treat the room to minimize its contribution, you still have spatial cues coming from the same direction as the direct sound when that doesn't occur in real life.

Things aren't any better in the front soundstage, where you're relying heavily on phantom imaging (which is inherently unstable). Centrally placed vocals are reproduced by 2 speakers when in real life the human voice is not a dual-mono, comb-filtering, phantom-imaged sound. It really isn't. You misunderstood me, by off topic I meant my listening preferences, not the merits of surround processors.Again, I would never question your's or any one else's listening preferences as that is completely personal. If you enjoy listening to music via 2 speakers, then I would never try to talk you out of that. However, if you're going to claim that it has any resemblence to reality, then I'll disagree (and explain why). Proper speaker placement is hardly 'two arbitrary points'.How does the placement of your two front speakers correlate (in any way) to a recording you're listening to? Was the recording venue as wide as your front speakers are? Was the orchestra spread out the width of your front speakers? Did the recording engineer have his front speakers the same angle apart as you do in your listening room? Anyone who understands acoustics can replicate the sonic signatures of live events.How? I'm not being flippant but asking genuinely: how can 2 speakers reproduce a sonic event where the vocalist remains in the middle of the front soundstage no matter where you move, where spatial cues come from your sides, where envelopment comes from all around (including behind you)? How do you do all that with only 2 speakers? All I'm saying it from what I have heard from the Lexicon so far, a properly treated room with a high quality stereo set up sounds more natural to my ears. I haven't even tried all the options available to me yet as Shawn points out, so I am not writing off the Lexicon solution.This isn't about your preferences in general nor your opinion of Lexicon in particular. I haven't (and wouldn't) question your opinion on those things. I'm only raising the point about 2 speakers vs more, when trying to reproduce a live event.

For example, when you say "more natural to my ears", what do you mean? When you hear a person talk (or sing) is it natural for your ears to hear their voice as a phantom image? Do your ears hear their voice as a dual-mono source? Is it natural for your ears to hear a concert hall's spatial cues come from in front of you? You haven't even asked me about the rest of my system....Wouldn't it make better sense to let me try all Shawn's tips first (and the Meridian solution), before calling into question the merits of a system I have not yet fully explored?No, because this isn't about your specific gear nor system preferences. Those are choices you made based on personal taste. The only reason I'd ask about the rest of your system is if you told me that your 2 speakers can be in multiple locations simultaneously. Then you truly would have a way of reproducing a live event with only 2 speakers.

Until then, all I'm addressing is your claim of 2-speaker playback sounding "like being at a live event". You have yet to explain how 2-speaker playback resembles a live event. I've explained plenty of ways in which they are different.

Best,
Sanjay