Beware the Cheap DVD Players

[Sonyuser]

Almost 7 1/2 years ago I purchased a Sony 7000 DVD Player which has and continues to perform flawlessly. But I was interested in upgrading as it doesn't handle DTS and because it looses certain of its settings with the frequent power failures we have here in the hill country of Texas. I've been waiting for a player without the chroma uptake bug, and a recent Secrets review had some favorable things to say about an inexpensive Toshiba DVD Player, so I purchased it.

My comments are no reflection upon Secrets, as they do not report on quality issues, except the obvious ones from the specific product they are testing. BUT THE TOSHIBA DVD PLAYER I PURCHASED IS JUNK! For a $75 unit I purchased from Best Buy, I guess I should have not expected anything better (even though I had just purchased a $100 Sony DVD Player with the chroma uptake bug for my wife - she doesn't see it - and it otherwise performs flawlessly). The Toshiba performs, when it works. But three quarters of the time, after powering it up, none of the controls work - it is unpredictably inoperable, and then has to be powered up again to see if it works the next time. Additionally, when a disc does play, the unit vibrates horrendously, to the extent that the heavy equipment cabinet in which it is located also vibrates! The video and audio out are pristine when it works, but obviously everything coming out of China is not good. And Toshiba products used to live up to their good name! Oh well, I couldn't believe that anything of quality could be produced for the price this thing sells for, so I purchased two of the Toshibas to have one as a back-up - this one goes in the trash, and the next one goes in its place!

[Dave W]

I also recently purchased a Toshiba SD-3960 from Best Buy. I agree it's made very cheaply. I haven't had problems like you've described (yet), but I was quite impressed with the video performace. Some nice features too. It's kind of unfortunate the way the DVD player market has gone. I'd pay twice what the SD-3960 costs for the same player if it was built better. Most of the manufacturers don't even bother to build higher quality models any more. Just cheap, cheap, cheap! Does Best Buy even sell a player (non-recorder) over $100?

Dave

[Foxbat121]

To answer your question, Yes, BestBuy does sell DVD players over $100, the infamous Samsung HD841 which cost $199. And the worst of all, 841 isn't any better quality wise than your $75 DVD players.

[dvdchance]

As another 3960 (almost) owner, my biggest complaint with the unit was the noisy motor. Plenty of times I'd be watching a quite point in a movie, only to hear the trusty Toshiba.

I must say it did give better PQ then a few others I tried, Harmon Kardon DVD 22, Samsung 841 among.

I'm pretty sure I'm settling on the Denon 910 I have now. Awesome PQ and quiet as a church mouse.

Though at the same weight as the Toshiba to the gram, it also doesn't seem to be the built for the battlefield :)

[pdubyu]

In general, I don't mind the cheaper prices on DVD players because that is the normal cycle of electronics commoditization. What gets me is very few companies have nailed down the basics of a good DVD player before they proceeded with their cost cutting. Reducing build quality (plastic vs. aluminum, indicator LED vs. display, etc.) is fine but sacrificing performance seems crazy to me. Is it too much to ask for a DVD player that doesn't blindly read flags and have CUE for $100?!

[richard-p]

Originally posted by Sonyuser
The Toshiba performs, when it works. But three quarters of the time, after powering it up, none of the controls work - it is unpredictably inoperable, and then has to be powered up again to see if it works the next time. Additionally, when a disc does play, the unit vibrates horrendously, to the extent that the heavy equipment cabinet in which it is located also vibrates! The video and audio out are pristine when it works, but obviously everything coming out of China is not good. And Toshiba products used to live up to their good name!
Sounds like a defective player. I have a 3900 and 4900 and have not experienced any problems with either unit.

[rickster904]

$75 is not cheap. There is no reason to expect 'junk'. I have a sub $100 JVC that is built quite well. There are plenty of players under $50. You can return your defective unit, right?

[merc]

If you are looking for build quality, hold out for the Denon 3910... although it sure isn't gonna cost $75. ;)

[Sonyuser]

Re the query, can I return the Toshiba to Best Buy? Yes! And I will!

[fugate2140]

Beware of Best Buy return policy. I purchased the Samsung 841 DVD player on July 1st - auspiciously the drive transport mechanism broke(wouldn't release the DVD & wouldn't play) on July 30 th (a Friday night) . I took the 841 to Bust Buy (Lexington, KY) on Monday afternoon August 2nd. They wouldn't refund or exchange the unit despite half an hour arguing with two managers since the unit was purchased 32 days ago or 2 days beyond the return date. I would have to send it in for repairs taking several weeks to return. Seems to be a ridiculous and inept service policy. I'll sit on the machine till a new model replaces the 841.

[Foxbat121]

I don't see how this is BestBuy's fault. Their return policy is 30 days not 32 days or 31 days. On the other hand, I've been through 3 HD841s, first one had bad loader like your for just one night. I would advise everyone stay away from HD841.

[wbrack]

This past February, I purchased a Toshiba SD-3950 ( predecessor to the SD-3960) from Amazon.com. It failed after a few days (would no longer play any thing) so I contacted Amazon, filled out their on-line form and within 3 days the UPS guy showed up to pick up the defective unit. The credit ( full refund ) was issued within about 20 days. I subsequently purchased a SD-4900 from Amazon and it has been working flawlessly
ever since, with excellent picture quality and sound.

I am afraid Electronics is complex stuff and sometimes, things go wrong, but I don't think failures are necessarily related to the cost of the unit.
However, it does pay to know who you are dealing with and their reputation for customer service, which I think is much more important than
the initial purchase price of the product.

[waltchan]

Please make sure that you remember this: As with all new electronics, you should already know that new electronics don't last long as old ones, regardless of what brand.

Some of the posts above have a broken new Toshiba DVD players. I am laughing at you because both of my old 1997 Toshiba SD-3006 and SD-3107 players are still working fine after 7 years. That's because both of them were Made in Japan and were built for quality.

I did purchase a new Samsung HD841 DVD player before in Best Buy. I never had any problems with it. It was used for only one day just for me to try it for fun. I opened up the unit, and I saw that the HD841 uses Zoran chipsets on the main board. I am really shocked to hear about the high failure rates on the Samsung high definition DVD players. I never know that Made in Korea Samsung products slide so rapidly on quality. Back then, Samsung Korea quality was just as good as the Made in Japan products. My mom still has her old, never repaired before, vintage 21 year old Made in Korea Samsung microwave oven.

When buying new electronic equipments that I'm not sure if I want to keep permanantly, I never purchase them at Best Buy, Tweeters, Good Guys, or Circuit City. I always go to Costco or Sams Club, membership warehouses, and buy what I want. Unlike user "fugate2140" who is displeased with Best Buy's return policy and didn't got his money back, I alway got full refund on any electronics that I purchased from Costco or Sams Club, so far. You can return them at any time, even with no receipt, with no expiration time, even if the item is over 10 years old. I one time returned my old 6 year old broken Philips Magnavox VCR, and I got a full refund of $169.99. Try bringing an old 6 year old broken VCR back to Best Buy. The customer service staffs are probably going to laugh at you and throw that VCR back in front of your face. But in Costco or Sams Club, you never need to deal with that. Basically, I think that Costco and Sams Club offer you free upgrades on new electronics. In my belief, I think that Costco is the best pawn shop around. There is a higher chance of getting a full refund from Costco than Sams Club, although they both should work the same. However, the bad thing about Costco and Sams Club is that they don't have the products you want. They are extremely limited on selection. At least both warehouses have new DVD players in stock that you can return at any time. A few days ago, I purchased a new $39.99 plastic Magnavox (Funai-made) DVD player from Sams Club. I know it will fail soon, so once it broke, it goes back to Sams Club, even if it is two years or twenty years after purchase.




Walt(er) Chan

[jimmykce]

IF you want build quality than you will be spending over $300 bucks. Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer ellite, and I am sure there is more.

[Foxbat121]

Originally posted by waltchan
I did purchase a new Samsung HD841 DVD player before in Best Buy. I never had any problems with it. It was used for only one day just for me to try it for fun. I opened up the unit, and I saw that the HD841 uses Zoran chipsets on the main board. I am really shocked to hear about the high failure rates on the Samsung high definition DVD players. I never know that Made in Korea Samsung products slide so rapidly on quality. Back then, Samsung Korea quality was just as good as the Made in Japan products. My mom still has her old, never repaired before, vintage 21 year old Made in Korea Samsung microwave oven.

Microwave oven can't be compared to devices like TV or DVD players. One of my co-worker's uncle repairs TV for living. And his experience with Samsung is that it is among the worst brands quality wise.

[Q of BanditZ]

I am a firm believer in the idea of "built-in obsolescence." ;)

[Tyro]

Originally posted by jimmykce
IF you want build quality than you will be spending over $300 bucks. Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer ellite, and I am sure there is more.
Have you seen/felt the quality of Denon's $300 dollar players? I don't think they weigh a full pound and the back "jack" panel flexes when you insert the video cables.
Not confidence inspiring.

[Q of BanditZ]

$500 is usually where you start seeing differences. At least as far as new products go vs. refurbs and such.

On the other hand, you can get players that are under $200 like the Zenith 318 and FOR THAT PRICE, it's very well made overall.

[waltchan]

Hi, Foxbat121, I have one question for you. Can you ask your co-worker's uncle on his opinion of Funai and Apex made televisions. Are Funai better or Apex better or Samsung better? Thanks for your help.




Walter Chan

[wbrack]

Reading the posts on this thread, I get the impression that there are certain
misconceptions about quality and reliability in electronic products. I am a
retired electronics engineer and engineering supervisor (Chief Engineer)
and a Life Member of IEEE. First, let me say that weight per Se does not
equate to quality, because todays electronic devices have have few if any
mechanical components. Everything is built on circuit boards and the only
mechanical parts are related to the user interface, such as switches and
connectors. You can make the housing and the front and rear panels out of
steel or use aluminum and plastic and it makes a huge difference in the
weight without affecting quality or reliability of the product. I might also
point out that steel would likely be the cheapest solution from a
manufacturing stand point.
What does have a serious effect on reliability is product design itself.
Engineers design products to a certain price point, which will typically be
established by marketing. Some engineers are very clever and they know
from experience just how many corners they can cut without affecting the
product reliability. If I hear of a product were three units in a row fail, that
indicates a marginal product design. It won't matter where the product is
manufactured, it can be Japan, Korea, China or the USA, the product is
likely to fail.
The last thing that affects reliability is manufacturing quality control, which
has some baring on random failures, particularly in the early part of a products life.

[penticton102]

for fifty bucks i purchased the citizen dvd3842 player with vga out and progressive scan, dts sound , has a few pull down menus etc(brightness contrast etc) and couldn,t be happier, the machine works flawlessy and have had zero probelms with it (knock on wood) and am still amazed with the performance of this sleak little player!............

[gwsat]

Ditto for a cheap Hitachi player, which I bought at Sam's Club for $65.00. It's fine.

[DMF]

" If I hear of a product were three units in a row fail, that indicates a marginal product design."

"marginal" ?? Is that supposed to be a synonym for "crap"?

Field-fail three units in a row and the manufacurer should go out of business for its own protection. What would you consider to be a "marginal" overall field failure rate?

[wbrack]

I didn't say the failure rate was marginal, I said the product design was
marginal. The failure rate for this product is obviously unacceptably high.
The point I tried to make is that in this case, the country of manufacture
has most likely nothing to do with the high failure rate, it's the product
design that's faulty. Design and manufacture these days are rarely done
by the same company and in the same country, especially in consumer electronics.

[PrimeTime]

Wbrack, I don't think it's that simple.

Electromechanical devices like DVD players, loudspeakers and even automobiles are more susceptible to variations in handling, environment, parts and assembly variables than purely electronic products like amplifiers and televisions. And in any case, a new factory with a new production staff (China) will have some kind of learning curve as they work out the kinks in their Surface Mount Device processes over time.

Three consecutive field failures would suggest to me that there are production assembly or parts problems. Unforgiving or bad designs that go out en masse to unsympathetic consumers-- although it can happen, be it Toshiba or Denon -- can do serious damage, especially to a smaller company.

I had a Costco Toshiba K-730 (OEM 3950 minus optical out) and a 4900. Both work well. Judging by their functionality and remote controls, they came from different design groups. The 4900 uses a remote control found also in four-year-old Toshiba products and has more primitive signal processing (DVD-A notwithstanding). The K-730/3950 uses a smaller, more elegant remote and has more sophisticated DNR.

In fact, Dynamic Noise Reduction is a useful feature often neglected in player reviews. Probably because it is easy to observe but often difficult to quantify.

[wbrack]

Well, the point here I think is that Cheap (inexpensive) does not automatically equate to bad or unreliable. It is a lot easier to design a $300
player that has good long term reliability than to make players in the $30-80
price range that will stand the test of time. Of course, the jury is still out on
these inexpensive players, because there where none two or three years
ago. Not only that, but the general consensus is that these player outperform
players that cost hundreds more back then.

[Foxbat121]

I totally agree with wbrack that it is a design problem not manufacturing problem. In my case, the last two HD841 all had sound drop with DTS and DVD-Audio (I didn't event get a chance to test sound problem with first HD841 before it died), a symptom shared by many other HD841 owners. I'm pretty sure it is the firmware or the choice of cheaper loader that costs this problem.

[zoro]

I have Toshiba 4900, use it for pal to ntsc , region free!! works fine!

[DMF]

wbrack, point taken.

It certainly would be interesting to get our hands on the actual failure rates and modes of these cheap units.

[DaveFi]

My $50 Sharp DV-S2 has been doing fine for over a year. Not much on extras but plays movies fine with great PQ- Faroudja for $50. Can't beat that.:D

[Noah]

All DVD players, cheap or not, would likely follow the model of the bathub curve (http://www.weibull.com/hotwire/issue21/hottopics21.htm) in terms of failure rate.

I would suggest that people do a burn-in/stress test of newly-bought players to make sure they get past the "infant mortality" stage or else die in the process while still returnable.

Personally, I've had extremely good luck (knock on wood) with midrange Toshiba players. One of them surely logged 500 hours for me and is still going strong after being passed down to the more luddite side of the family.

[BigMikeATL]

I've noticed that with more and more crap being made in China that the quality has gotten.. well.. crappier.

In an effort to cut costs and be "competitive", quality has continued to drop. Just look at the iPods now that they moved manufaturing from Taiwan to mainland China. People have had them come out of the box with scratches, smudges, and residue on them. Not what one would expect, especially for the Lexus of MP3 players.

Same seems to go for new dvd players, too. Sure, they've gotten cheaper in terms of price.. but they've gotten MUCH CHEAPER in terms of quality.

I can't wait until auto manufacuters outsource car manufacturing to China. They'll come back here with bumpers that fall off after 5 miles.

Stuff made in Mexico is almost always of far better quality. I'd gladly pay a litte more for QUALITY goods these days. It seems that stuff isn't made to last anymore, and that's really sad when you think about it.

[wbrack]

Originally posted by Noah
All DVD players, cheap or not, would likely follow the model of the bathub curve (http://www.weibull.com/hotwire/issue21/hottopics21.htm) in terms of failure rate.

I would suggest that people do a burn-in/stress test of newly-bought players to make sure they get past the "infant mortality" stage or else die in the process while still returnable.

Personally, I've had extremely good luck (knock on wood) with midrange Toshiba players. One of them surely logged 500 hours for me and is still going strong after being passed down to the more luddite side of the family.

I think you made an excellent point here, a lot of owner dissatisfaction
stems from product failures that occur within hours or days of opening the
box. Unfortunately, the facts of live are that no manufacturer can afford to
run a burn in cycle for products that in many cases retail for well under
$100. Here may be a case where you get what you pay for. I imagine if
you buy a Denon for several hundred dollars, they may well run the burn in
cycle at the factory to eliminate most of the early field failures.

[BigMikeATL]

I think that with most electronics, it's still a case of "you get what you pay for." i.e. If you buy a $50 DVD player and it doesn't last but a year, don't be surprised.

I have personally spent from $230-400 for each the DVD players I've ever bought (with the exception of a $50 Apex which is nothing special, but still works fine 2 years later). All these players have been a great value, loaded with features, and have performed like champs. My oldest is a Panasonic A110 that's 6 years old. Other than a couple discs that are incompatible, it has been great.

Even major name brands like Sony and Toshiba still make decent players that are of higher quality than the $100 units that have flooded the market in the last year.


One thing that we CAN look forward to is the fact that as DVD Players become a commodity (just like CD players), they will be ubiquitous, cheap, and generally quite reliable from brand to brand. I also think you'll see some consolidation in the dvd player market over the next 18 months, as the intense competition pushes out several manufacturers who don't find dvd players profitable enough to stay in the business. I think you'll also see a few brands which quit the low-margin sub-$100 market and stick to higher quality units in the $200-300 range. Samsung was the first to start going this route with their new HD players (which upconvert and have enhanced image processors).

That's my 2 cents...

[jazzcat]

Originally posted by BigMikeATL
Samsung was the first to start going this route with their new HD players (which upconvert and have enhanced image processors).

That's my 2 cents...

BigMikeATL, how do you account for the miserable failure rate of the Samsung 841. Loader problems, DTS drop out problems, not being able to play a multi layer DVD-A disk, not being able to get video through a DVI switch and all the other problems associated with this player on this board?

I have a pre buy on the 941 through TVA but I am going to cancel it tomorrow in favor of a Denon 2910. TVS charges a 12 or 14% re-stock fee I just don't want to gamble on a DVD player that will probably use most of the components as the 841.

[BigMikeATL]

Well, I never said that all those more expensive players would be better. Samsung seems to have trouble getting things right the first time around. That seems to go for most of their electronics. It seems to take 2-3 revisions for them to really start to get things right.

[jnug]

wbrack has obviously worked the engineering side of the equation as I have worked the marketing side. In fact I am universally skeptical of gen-2 consumer electronics products that as a matter of course require design resources from several areas of expertise. Although the technical spec and performance targets for the gen-2 product often include meeting or bettering those of their gen-1 predecessor, they for sure also include meeting more rigorous cost targets and those cost targets WILL be met I assure you. Gen-2 products whose base technologies cover fewer areas of expertise often meet with better success even if they are by nature more costly because there are fewer places for guys like me to force our will with regard to cost. Gen-2 TV's for example often fair better than gen-2 DVD players which are tremendously complex devices in comparison.

Even relatively pricey parts of a product line are not insulated from the golden rule, thou shalt cost reduce!! As such if I am relatively confident that a gen-1 product from a major consumer electronics supplier (by default a supplier that lives by the golden rule) of the type I described above is going to make the grade for me I am likely to go with gen-1 and watch with amusement as said company's marketing department spins its tale of product improvement for the gen-2 product that is often found wanting in several respects.

Although as stated above there are no parts of the product line that are immune from from the golden rule you will find that the engineers assigned the designs for the lower end products are often forced to take more risks and in fact are expected to take more risks in the effort to meet quite rigorous cost and gross margin targets. Hence the greater likelihood of disappointment on our end.

It can be a cold dose of reality but our suppliers are businesses and they are run for the most part by businessmen.

[PrimeTime]

This "2nd Gen" talk reminds me of the Muntz School of Engineering.

Muntz would wander into the lab where the latest version of a TV, tape player or whatever widget was being designed. He would take out his diagonal cutters and snip-snip-snip out components his engineers were attempting to add in the evolution of their designs. The idea was that, if you could remove something and it didn't seem to affect the performance of the unit on the bench, then you were achieving cost-cutting in the real sense. This activity became known in the engineering community as "Muntzing" a design.

I've oversimplified his approach. But only slightly.

[Noah]

Originally posted by wbrack
I think you made an excellent point here, a lot of owner dissatisfaction
stems from product failures that occur within hours or days of opening the
box. Unfortunately, the facts of live are that no manufacturer can afford to
run a burn in cycle for products that in many cases retail for well under
$100. Here may be a case where you get what you pay for. I imagine if
you buy a Denon for several hundred dollars, they may well run the burn in
cycle at the factory to eliminate most of the early field failures. Yeah, I don't think people entirely realize that they're the QC department for cheap electronics. Really testing each unit is labor/time/cost-intensive and there just isn't the margin for it in a $75 unit.

I hate the idea of disposable electronics. I want something I buy to last as long as it's useful to me and ideally as long as it's useful to the next person to use it. This goes beyond the inconvenience factor of product failure and more into environmental responsibility. I'd gladly pay a premium of 2x normal prices for some reassurance of longevity, but I'm no longer convinced that cost translates into reliability.

"Features" are rarely as important as core performance and are usually more marketing than engineering.

Every now and again there's a product like the XP30 that combines excellent performance with solid reliability. Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible to identify these models, except in hindsight.

[PrimeTime]

Originally posted by Noah
I'd gladly pay a premium of 2x normal prices for some reassurance of longevity, but I'm no longer convinced that cost translates into reliability. It would be interesting to compare the manufacturers' warranty terms on the inexpensive players with those on the higher-end (Denon et al) ones.

"Features" are rarely as important as core performance and are usually more marketing than engineering. Try telling that to Mr. Gates & Co.

[Furious]

Sony and Toshiba have factories in China or Korea doing OEM designs for their players, the same ones that produce all the cheapies. The difference is what the client asks for in terms of price and features. Much of the rest is down to the factory to design. Most models are interchangeable (much of Toshiba's line is the same as LG's). The market is moving strictly into the commodity realm. Major manufacturers will only hit higher price points with feature items such as HDMI or universal audio. You won't see a flagship or reference players from the likes of Toshiba, JVC, Panasonic, Hitachi, et al. Brand means nothing these days at this end of the price realm, design is the only thing that matters, and that is unfortunately an unknown quantity. The days of major manufacturers producing their own product are all but gone now at the 300-500 and under price points.

Originally posted by BigMikeATL
IEven major name brands like Sony and Toshiba still make decent players that are of higher quality than the $100 units that have flooded the market in the last year.

One thing that we CAN look forward to is the fact that as DVD Players become a commodity (just like CD players), they will be ubiquitous, cheap, and generally quite reliable from brand to brand. I also think you'll see some consolidation in the dvd player market over the next 18 months, as the intense competition pushes out several manufacturers who don't find dvd players profitable enough to stay in the business. I think you'll also see a few brands which quit the low-margin sub-$100 market and stick to higher quality units in the $200-300 range. Samsung was the first to start going this route with their new HD players (which upconvert and have enhanced image processors).

That's my 2 cents...

[wbrack]

In order to make sense of all this talk about quality and reliability, one has
to distinguish between the various failure modes:
1. Deficient product design as represented by that often mentioned
Samsung 841. This category of product will not follow the bathtub curve,
in other words, the failure rate is not time dependent and the product will
keep on failing no matter how long it has been in service.
2. Infant mortality failures as evidenced by products that fail almost
immediately after being put in service. This type of product, once it gets
past that initial period of high failure rates, could be expected to work
without further problems for a long long time, as several posts mentioned
$50 players that have been going strong for several years. The wear-out
mechanism that finally kills the product is not very much a function of the
initial cost or quality of the product. In other words, a $500 player is not
likely to outlast a well designed $50 player by any significant amount.
In any case these products will almost certainly become obsolete long
before they are worn out.

[sam_canavo]

Just to chime in. I purchased a middle of the line Denon receiver a few years back and the rear channel made a terrible screech. Returned it and was told
by the salesman that Denon had about 300 in Canada and the US with the same problem and it was something with that particular batch that came out. It could be the same
with this samsung line.
If anyone would like to investigate further contact Samsung and I'm sure that
they would give you some numbers to look for and see if they were made in the
same batch that they had problems with, just a thought.

I always compare dvd players 50-100$ like printers, they are disposable. It
costs more for ink then the printer is worth.
Now I'm not saying it should die in the first 2 months but if it lasts a year for fifty bucks it has cost you less than a buck a day.

As for returns I always check the store policy and manuf warranty because I
think with electronics if it doesn't die within 6-12 months it could go for
a very long time, my 12 year old 36" tv is testament to that.

Just my thoughts.

[jimmykce]

I bought a Bravo D2 and it actually weighs more than my Toshiba. I decide to to have a spending limit of around $200 dollars. I will use this player until a HD DVD player comes out. So far had no problems and the PQ is great.

[BigMikeATL]

I just noticed this on cnet and engadget:

"Apparently the DVD business has gotten so tight that manufacturers in China are only able to eek out profits of a mere dollar per player these days, with the average price for a player made in the Guangdong province just $40.80. They also mention that a full thirty Chinese DVD manufacturers went out of business during the first six months of this year, though we can’t decide whether the crazy part is that there were so many bankruptcies or that there must literally be hundreds of companies over there making DVD players."

http://news.com.com/DVD+player+profits+down+to+%241/2100-1041_3-5302728.html?part=rss&tag=5302728&subj=news.1041.20

http://www.engadget.com/entry/2768766119921744/


No wonder there are so many cheap crappy players these days. I bet some Chinese companies pop up, undercut their competitors price, churn out a bunch of low-grade players, take the money, and go out of business so no one can go after them.

[Cayenne]

I am happy that DVD players are so cheap. A few years ago I bought a DVD player that only had S video out for $100. About a year ago I bought another one with component for $75.00. I am now looking to get one with DVI/HDMI output once the price drops to $100 or less.

As long as it last's me about 2 years I am very happy. I can move on to better, and not regret that I paid 100's of $'s and now the player is outdated.

[kjack]

No wonder there are so many cheap crappy players these days. I bet some Chinese companies pop up, undercut their competitors price, churn out a bunch of low-grade players, take the money, and go out of business so no one can go after them.

There are only a few manufacturers, but plenty of companies that stick their own brand on the player to sell it. Many of these sell 4,999 players, shut their doors, start up under another name/address, and repeat the process.

[YeuEmMaiMai]

it sucks that we get crap but alas what you expecet when people are so cheap?