Denon 1910 (First Impressions)

[EVT]

Hi Guys,

I picked up a Denon 1910 last night from a local B&M here in Toronto. I'll list my impressions on the player below as well as my comparison to my LG7832 (Zenith 318).


Positives:

The player in fact passes pluge (blacker than black) over DVI and does not clip whites.

Nice to be able to view the amount of time remaining in a movie.

Custom picture controls (brightness and black level) for those who don't have independent memory on each of their TV inputs.

There doesn't appear to be a Y/C delay problem with the player set to 480p.


Negatives:

If the player is set to 1080i or 720p, 4x3 material is displayed stretched on my Toshiba 57HDX82. Thus, this player has the same problem with 4x3 material as the Zenith and Samsung upconverting players.

Also, I experienced some strange signal dropouts over DVI at 480p that I have not experienced with either the LG or Samsung 931 I had tried.

Since 4x3 material can only be viewed correctly at 480p, it would be nice to be able to switch to 480p via remote control. Since this feature is absent I find it difficult to recommend this player for those who watch a significant amount of 4x3 material or DVD special features (the vast majority of which are still in full frame).

The Denon website mentioned that the unit had a 2MB buffer so that layer changes would not be noticeable. I don't think this feature made it to the final product as I noticed layer changes were just as obvious on this unit as on my Panasonic RP82 and LG7832.


Comparison to LG/Zenith:

Picture Quality:

Overall, in terms of picture quality, I couldn't pick a winner between the 2 at 1080i which is the only mode I spent a significant amount of time experimenting with.

I didn't do any deinterlacing tests on the Denon unit as it has the same Fardouja deinterlacer/scaller as the LG/Zenith. As with the LG/Zenith, this player does not appear to have the chroma bug.

At 480p I would give the edge to Denon simply because it didn't have the Y/C delay problems the LG/Zenith has. However, I had a hell of a time trying to watch anything at 480p through the Denon as I kept experiencing dropouts in the picture over DVI.

Features/Build Quality:

The Denon seems sturdier than the LG/Zenith. However, the display is not as large as that of the LG/Zenith and not as easy to read.

The Denon does not have the white crush problem the LG/Zenith has; then again it cannot display 1080i or 720p through component video.

The Denon has some nice features not found on the LG/Zenith such as the ability to see the amount of time remaining and custom picture controls.

The LG/Zenith has a great scalling feature via it's customizable zoom modes that the Denon does not. With this feature the LG/Zenith is able to make up (for the most part) for it's inability to display a 4x3 picture properly.

As far as pixel cropping, I was unable to determine if the Denon had a problem in this areas as the overscan on my TV is substantial and I have not adjusted it. With my current overscan settings on my TV I could not see much of a difference on DVE between the Denon and the LG/Zenith in this regard.

I was able to make my LG unit region free in a matter of seconds. This may or may not prove to be the case with the Denon.


Conclusion:

For many of you this will be a tough decision. Personally, I'm leaning toward returning the Denon and keeping my LG unit.

The main reason for this is because of the Denon's inability to display 4x3 material properly at 1080i or 720p. While the LG has the same problem it's ability to scale material vertically independently rectifies the problem with respect to non-anamorphic widescreen DVDs and it also partially rectifies the problem with respect to 4x3 material by allowing you to crop a little bit off the top of the picture (just like stretch modes on TV's such as TW1 on Toshiba models) thus making the picture more natural looking. This seems to be a good compromise for me as I don't watch 4x3 material pillar boxed to prevent burn in. Also, I have very little 4x3 material besides extras on DVDs for which I don't care to preserve the original aspect ratio. However, I would like to have the ability to make the picture appear somewhat natural and in this respect the LG/Zenith's scaling features fit the bill.

Also, I honestly could not see a difference in terms of picture quality with both units running in 1080i.

As such, for me the decision boils down to whether I want some to be able to see the amount of time remaining (Denon) or whether I want the ability to view non-anamorphic DVDs in their proper aspect ratio and 4x3 material in a much more natural stretch mode (LG/Zenith).

When you also factor in the price difference, (the Denon costs almost twice as much here in Canada) the LG/Zenith appears to be the clear choice.

Before I make my final decision I will give the Denon another chance at 480p over DVI tonight to see if I can get rid of the drop outs. However, I doubt one way or another I'll be willing to tolerate the inability to properly view non-anamorphic DVDs and 4x3 material at 1080i or 720p just to gain a couple of convenience features such as time remaining and custom picture settings (which don't mean much to me).

Anyway, that's it for my long review.

[mallu2u]

Great review. I was waiting for one to come out. So good and bad for the player! I shall try it out as well when it is available in US. Have one Q abt the drop outs, on Dolby or DTS? What receiver do u have? I had read somewhere else on the forum of same issue with DTS and some receivers. Change the audio for the movie and see if you experience the dropouts.

[PooperScooper]

Thanks. So far it sounds like the 1910 is a $250 DVD player.

larry

[mallu2u]

Larry: U mean..bit cheaper than regular denons (in terms of quality)!!

[TonyS]

EVT - thanks for the early review! Have you tried 480p over component?

mallu2u - since EVT notes that his signal dropouts are over DVI (and only when in 480p), I assume he is talking about video dropouts and not audio dropouts.

[univibe88]

Man, I want one of these! I'm a bit disappointed to hear that the layer changes are pretty noticable.

I have a Toshiba right now, and the noticable layer changes are the only things that really bother me.

Karl

[Alexx]

EVT - could you please test 720p and say are there any dropouts? I think that's the mode most of us will use.

[mallu2u]

Originally posted by TonyS
EVT - thanks for the early review! Have you tried 480p over component?

mallu2u - since EVT notes that his signal dropouts are over DVI (and only when in 480p), I assume he is talking about video dropouts and not audio dropouts.

That makes sense! Guess I was too excited to help ;) Thanks for the correction

[EVT]

I was in fact referring to video dropouts.

I did try 720p for a short time and noticed no video dropouts. But I'll try it again to make sure.

All in all, by biggest pet peeve is the player's inability to properly display 4x3 material at 1080i or 720p. I could have lived with this if the DVI button was also on the remote as you can switch resolution settings on the fly with the Denon. Thus, if the DVI button was on the remote I would be willing to watch 4x3 material in 480p. The majority of 4x3 material I watch is DVD special features so I don't mind giving up 1080i on such material.

However, since this isn't the case I'm probably just going to keep my LG7832 for the time being.

[eweiss]

Maybe I'll just wait for Sony's DVI player, to go with my Sony 50XBR800. I assume they'll do it right for Sony TVs re: 4:3 movies....

[lancestorm]

How about the quality of the audio in comparison?

[John Ballentine]

Well-
I'm very disappointed to hear that layer changes are noticeable. This was the main reason I was contemplating switching from Sony to Denon. Hopefully this is not the case with the 3910. We will see.

[jigesh]

Hopefully this is not the case with the 3910. We will see.

With 8MB of buffer in 3910 (compared to 2MB in 1910), layer change shouldn't be noticeable.

[Iceblade]

Well, this is certainly disappointing. How friggin hard is it to make a player do what it's SUPPOSED to do? I mean, it's not like 4:3 is some 20 years dead form of video. This is just silly. Sounds like the bad may outweigh the good for me. Guess I'll have to see when the Tweeter goons call me about my preordered unit that's SUPPOSED to be in the warehouse today. Yeah, right.

And another thing... I know it's not that big of a deal to most people... but since I got a DVI cable WITH my STB, I would have appreciated Denon packing a DVI cable in the box as well. Just another little thing that irritates me.

Ratcha fratcha....

Thanks for the early review, EVT. Wish there could have been all positives, but I guess it was too much to hope that even a company like Denon could get it right after the format being out for what... 8-9 years? :rolleyes:

Regs,
Jeff

[EVT]

Hey guys,

With respect to 4x3 material, I'm left wondering if this is something that can be blamed on the player or the way TV's are setup. I guess what I'm saying is that if a TV assumes that all 1080i/720p material is 16x9 then short of a player adding in it's own bars on 4x3 material how can a player compensate for this shortcoming on TV's?

What I believe Denon should have done is either allow for switching to 480p via remote or provided a better zoom feature much like the one on the Zenith 318/LG 7832.

[HAndrade]

Thanks for your post EVT


Originally posted by EVT
I was able to make my LG unit region free in a matter of seconds. This may or may not prove to be the case with the Denon.


but, did you tried with Denon player???

[EVT]

As far as Region Free on the Denon I have not seen any instructions online on how to do it. Hence, my point that it is unclear at this point in time whether the Denon can be easily made to be region free.

[MEYJR]

I have what may be a newbie question because I just got my 16:9 tv and have not played with it much yet.

What exactly is the problem with watching the DVD extras that are 4:3? That is all I really watch in 4:3 anyway. Is there just bars on the sides?

and

Will the 5 different formats my TV has (zoom, stretch, stretch plus, etc.) help the 4:3 problem we are talking about? Say I am watching the DVD extras, can I change formats on the TV to fix this problem?

Thanks for the quick review.

Mike

[Tigerriot]

Originally posted by John Ballentine
Well-
I'm very disappointed to hear that layer changes are noticeable. This was the main reason I was contemplating switching from Sony to Denon. Hopefully this is not the case with the 3910. We will see.


The reason to get the Denon comes down to one thing, video quality. The Denon will do a much better job at deinterlacing and upconverting than the Sony player. There is truly a difference between the video quality of a Denon with a Farudja chip and a Sony with it's own chip. That is the reason someone should buy the Denon, not layer changes.

You are never going to see a perfect layer change with a 2MB memory buffer. This has been known for many years. You need something around 8MB to truly see a perfect layer change.

[Patrick TX]

Sucks to hear about the 4:3 performance. As far as the layer change goes, no surprise there. It has a 2mb buffer (nothing). The DVD-1600 had a 4mb buffer, and a 1.75 second layer change to boot. The DVD-2200 has an 8mb buffer, for NO LAYER CHANGE. They chose not to eliminate the layer change at this price point. As far as how it handles 4:3, Denon knows EXACTLY how to do it, they chose not to at this price point. The DVD-2200 handles 4:3 just fine. Regarding region free, not going to happen most likely. The Denon players are very difficult to hack without a hardware mod. I'm not biting on this player.

[EVT]

Patrick TX,

What do you mean when you say the 2200 handles 4x3 material fine? The 2200 outputs a 480p signal. At 480p the 1910 is just fine as well. The problem lies with 1080i and 720p. Most sets assume that a 1080i or 720p signal is 16x9 so when they receive such a signal they lock into full mode.

In a sense I'm saying that I don't actually believe that the 1910 can be faulted for this issue. Is anyone aware of another upconverting player that does not act this way? From my understanding no upconverting player has been able to circumvent this on a TV that automatically assumes a 1080i or 720p signal is 16x9.

So my point was since this is the case Denon should have attempted to remedy the situation by either offering a better zoom/scalling feature such as the one on the LG/Zenith that allows independent vertical stretching to compensate for the horizontal stretch applied by the TV or the ability to atleast switch to 480p from the remote to so you can watch 4x3 material pillar boxed if you so choose.

[PaulG]

Thanks for the review, EVT!

[Patrick TX]

Is anyone aware of another upconverting player that does not act this way?

The Momitsu will pillarbox an upconvert. That's why they are so damn popular. I AM faulting the Denon for having to revert back to 480P to display 4:3 properly. It is an upconverting player. If the Sigma players can do it, why can't mighty Denon? I'm not bashing Denon, as I own a DVD-2900. I'm quite happy with it (when it works), and plan on keeping it (when I get it back from Denon). I'm hoping it won't be another 3 months. Meanwhile, my 318 is like an affair I'm having behind the Denons back. It may get REAL UGLY once I do a shootout.

[EVT]

Hey guys,

Just so that you guys know. If you look at page 37 of the Denon 3910 manual on the Denon website the 3910 will also have the same problem as the 1910 with respect to 4x3 material.

The 3910 offers a squeeze mode for 4x3 material on a 16x9 set but the squeeze mode is ineffective in interlaced mode (i.e. 1080i). Those of you who plan to output a 720p signal may be in luck but those of you who plan to output a 1080i signal are likely in for the same problem with respect to 4x3 material as the 1910. At least that's how it looks based on the manual.

Hopefully somebody will release a player that corrects this issue. As for the 1910, I hope someone figures out a discrete code that allows resolution switching via remote.

[auksmart]

EVT, did you get a color choice, Silver or Black? And do you think it's the player that's squeezing 4:3 material via DVI/480p or is your tv simply allowing the correct ratio?

Thanks

[mallu2u]

Originally posted by EVT
Hey guys,

With respect to 4x3 material, I'm left wondering if this is something that can be blamed on the player or the way TV's are setup. I guess what I'm saying is that if a TV assumes that all 1080i/720p material is 16x9 then short of a player adding in it's own bars on 4x3 material how can a player compensate for this shortcoming on TV's?

What I believe Denon should have done is either allow for switching to 480p via remote or provided a better zoom feature much like the one on the Zenith 318/LG 7832.

I agree with the statement that TVs should have the option of chaging the modes to 4:3 for HD stuff as well...to compensate for DVD players do not do this right like this player. So kinda issue for both...TV and DVD player.

[mallu2u]

Originally posted by MEYJR
I have what may be a newbie question because I just got my 16:9 tv and have not played with it much yet.

What exactly is the problem with watching the DVD extras that are 4:3? That is all I really watch in 4:3 anyway. Is there just bars on the sides?

and

Will the 5 different formats my TV has (zoom, stretch, stretch plus, etc.) help the 4:3 problem we are talking about? Say I am watching the DVD extras, can I change formats on the TV to fix this problem?

Thanks for the quick review.

Mike

What happens is that when some HDTVs see a HD signal (720p and 1080i), they set the mode at 'full mode' and lock the option to change the modes...so is the case with Sony and I think with Sammy as well.

[scsiraid]

My TV can squeeze a 16:9 HD image into a proper 4:3 image. That should compensate for the horizontally stretched image.

[nathan_h]

EVT, did you get a chance to do any experimentation with DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R or DVD+RW discs? As time goes on, I have some of each in my collection, and being able to play them becomes a deal-breaker when considering a new player.

[MEYJR]

Originally posted by mallu2u
What happens is that when some HDTVs see a HD signal (720p and 1080i), they set the mode at 'full mode' and lock the option to change the modes...so is the case with Sony and I think with Sammy as well.

I may be mistaken, but I think my Mitsubishi 65813 can still change formats. Does anyone know if this is true or not?

[Kenlex]

Originally posted by mallu2u
I agree with the statement that TVs should have the option of chaging the modes to 4:3 for HD stuff as well...to compensate for DVD players do not do this right like this player. So kinda issue for both...TV and DVD player.

Except that... the DVD player knows what the format of the material is SUPPOSED to be (e.g., feature at 16x9, "extras" at 4x3); the TV DOESN'T. The DVD player COULD, if it were implemented, automatically pillar-box 4x3 material when it is set to output in "wide" mode. The only way for the TV to compensate is for the viewer to manually switch the TV from "wide" to "normal". So, while the TV can't do it automatically; the DVD player CAN -- and SHOULD!

As I've noted before (on another thread?), my 4 year old Sony non-progressive DVD player and 32" Sony XBR 4x3 CRT set DO figure it out together. When the player is playing 16x9 material it signals the TV over a proprietary link, and the TV reduces its vertical scan so that the picture is effectively 16x9 (a kind of 480i widescreen) which gives much better PQ than standard letterboxing; they automatically revert to fullscreen when 4x3 material is played. If a 4 year old Sony DVD player can change its output based on the source material, why can't more contemporary upconverting players (like the Denons) do the same? It seems most companies' engineers have simply made a bad design decision.

[mallu2u]

And thats what my point is- If DVD Player does not do it automatically, out TVs should have the option to do this manually

[gwsat]

I'll echo the criticism of the 1910's inability to show 4:3 programs in pillar box format at 1080i. That would be a deal breaker for me. In fact, that's one of the reasons I bought a Momitsu V880. I confess, I'm a bit of a crank where 4:3 material stretched to 16:9 is concerned but crank or not, it seems to me that Denon should have done a better job on this score.

[mallu2u]

Well..lets see how others review the DVD Player. Looking forward to that since so far we have only one review.

[keenan]

Originally posted by MEYJR
I may be mistaken, but I think my Mitsubishi 65813 can still change formats. Does anyone know if this is true or not?

If you look in you manual there is a page that shows all the different formats. With a 1080i signal I think there is only 2 screen formats though.

Jim

[MEYJR]

Originally posted by keenan
If you look in you manual there is a page that shows all the different formats. With a 1080i signal I think there is only 2 screen formats though.

Jim

I think you are right about the 2. But will that help this issue any? I am really looking forward to getting this player, I do not want to wait all this time for it and be disappointed for any reason.

[vksf01]

Originally posted by EVT
Patrick TX,

In a sense I'm saying that I don't actually believe that the 1910 can be faulted for this issue. Is anyone aware of another upconverting player that does not act this way? From my understanding no upconverting player has been able to circumvent this on a TV that automatically assumes a 1080i or 720p signal is 16x9.

The LG LST-3510A does pillarboxing. It has 5 zoom modes. Normal (4:3), Wide (16:9), Horizon (Goldfish Bowl Mode), and 2 zoom modes. I've never quite understood why they'd take it away on the later Zenith DVB-318.

[LEVESQUE]

Mallu2u.

I will put my 1910 against my LG7832, my Denon 5900 and (maybe...) my friend Pio 59avi tonight, and will probably post some screen shots also. All those 4 using the DVI connection on my 3chip LCOS projector.

I was really busy the last 3 days, so the 1910 is still in the box...

[Riley9208]

I have to agree that it's all about the DVD PQ. I buy a DVD for the 16:9 feature movie, not for the 4:3 extras. If the 1910 behaves 'less than perfectly' when dealing with the 4:3 extras, it certainly won't be a 'dealbreaker' for me. 4:3 is on it's way out...the 1910 also doesn't play my old beta video tapes, but I'm not going to call it a Denon design flaw.

[mallu2u]

Originally posted by LEVESQUE
Mallu2u.

I will put my 1910 against my LG7832, my Denon 5900 and (maybe...) my friend Pio 59avi tonight, and will probably post some screen shots also. All those 4 using the DVI connection on my 3chip LCOS projector.

I was really busy the last 3 days, so the 1910 is still in the box...

You are the envy of so many people for getting it early and are taking so much time! LOL The comparison and the pictures shall be AWESOME...since they shall help everyone SEE the difference (if there is) before buying it..

[nathan_h]

Originally posted by Riley9208
I have to agree that it's all about the DVD PQ. I buy a DVD for the 16:9 feature movie, not for the 4:3 extras.

I may be an anomoly, but one third of my DVD collection is of 4x3 movies, because for the first half of motion picture history, 99.9% of all films were 4x3 OAR.

[mallu2u]

Originally posted by Riley9208
I have to agree that it's all about the DVD PQ. I buy a DVD for the 16:9 feature movie, not for the 4:3 extras. If the 1910 behaves 'less than perfectly' when dealing with the 4:3 extras, it certainly won't be a 'dealbreaker' for me. 4:3 is on it's way out...the 1910 also doesn't play my old beta video tapes, but I'm not going to call it a Denon design flaw.

Not correctly displaying shall not be a deal-breaker for me as well. For 4:3, there this option of changing the mode to 480i/p and I shall do that...whats the point to upconvert 4:3 anyway..the PQ shall not be that great anyway. Ya..there is this extra step up of getting up and going to the player since its not on the remote...little painful but will get used to :)

[wmallory]

Originally posted by Riley9208
I have to agree that it's all about the DVD PQ. I buy a DVD for the 16:9 feature movie, not for the 4:3 extras. If the 1910 behaves 'less than perfectly' when dealing with the 4:3 extras, it certainly won't be a 'dealbreaker' for me. 4:3 is on it's way out... 4:3 might be on its way out for new material, but there is an awful lot of old classics that are 4:3 (and with any luck, always will be 4:3).

Oh, and some 4:3 OAR DVDs have excellent picture quality.

[mallu2u]

Originally posted by nathan_h
I may be an anomoly, but one third of my DVD collection is of 4x3 movies, because for the first half of motion picture history, 99.9% of all films were 4x3 OAR.

I have 4:3 too...but there is no need to upconvert it IMO...480i/p shall work fine...

[Patrick TX]

4:3 is on it's way out...

The World is flat as well. Many, many, many titles are released every single day in 4:3. Tell that opnion of yours to people who buy Concerts, Anime, TV shows on DVD. Tell it to the people that don't think the current crop of movies being released are the "end all" as far as entertainment. Tell it to Warner, who is releasing Gone with the wind in 1:33. This is quite possibly the greatest film ever made. Maybe they should have chopped it up so it would look good with a Denon 1910 & your widescreen tv.

[juketrader]

The 4/3 display problems are they on a 4/3 or wide screen and will They be a big problem on my HT1000 it is native 4/3. Or will the 1910 display the 4/3 disk correctly on my 4/3 screen? Thanks I am new to all this.

[wmallory]

Originally posted by Patrick TX
Tell it to Warner, who is releasing Gone with the wind in 1:33. I think you mean re-re-re-re-re-releasing Gone with the Wind. :) And I sure hope they'd keep it 1.33:1.

[vincey2kr1]

okay okay time for the newb question :confused: What is the layer change that the Denon is having problems all about?

[dpippel]

It would have been nice if Denon had learned their lesson on the 4:3/1080i issue with the 5900. As many have already pointed out, most HDTV displays lock on full when receiving 720p/1080i video. Denon and other manufacturers are offering customers the "advantage" of native HDTV-resolution output from regular DVDs on these players. Why is properly scaling 4:3 material at these resolutions so hard to get a grip on as a needed feature with the current state of the marketplace? We shouldn't be seeing 2nd and 3rd generation models that still force you to manually switch to 480i/p to view 1.33:1 video properly. A disappointment indeed.

[wmallory]

Originally posted by eweiss
My wife loves it, though, and I'll likely get her the upcoming remastered frame-by-Technicolor-frame ultra-sharp-vision version to replace our current DVD. Same here eweiss. Same here. :)

[Riley9208]

4:3 and "Gone With the Wind" used in the same post. Very appropriate. First of all, I would never suggest that the classic movies be degraded to fit any particular format. As long as the 4:3 PQ is still great at 480p, I won't fret if I'm not upconverting when I watch a classic movie or an old TV show. I'm just looking forward (not backward).

I'm sorry if I redirected the focus of this thread. EVT did us a great favor posting that fine 1st review of the 1910. It did nothing to dissude me from buying it. To the contrary, now I really can't wait til it comes out. It sounds like a real deal at <$250.

[Iceblade]

Ok guys... I hate to be a party pooper, but can we try to keep the GWTW DVD love fest talk in it's own thread and stick to the 1910 here? Not everyone thinks GWTW is the best movie in the universe and everyone has different opinions on what constitutes a "great movie". I think we understand the point that 4:3 material is hosed when upconverted to HD rez. Denon screwed up, whether they choose to acknowledge that or not. As usual, the tv makers will blame the DVD player makers (and vice versa) for the issue and the consumer will be stuck as the loser.

Thanks and regards,
Jeff

[HDKing]

I don't quite understand this 4:3 issue that everyone is talking about. What exactly is happening? Is the issue that when viewing a movie on a widescreen tv, the full screen is used? Because I have a lot of DVDs that say for 16:9 tvs, but when I watch the movie it is displayed fullscreen.

[juketrader]

Will this 4/3 thing be a problem on my 4/3 HT1000 screen. I will play 4/3 in to the dvi 1080I.
New to all this.

Thanks

[avsnovis]

Man, I want one of these! I'm a bit disappointed to hear that the layer changes are pretty noticable.

I have a Toshiba right now, and the noticable layer changes are the only things that really bother me.
There are at most only two layers per side on the DVD's, and if the viewing material is more than about 2 hrs it spills over to the next layer, correct? If so, at the most there will be only one layer change happening per side of the DVD. Is it such a big deal if that is somewhat noticeable?

[HeaTransfer]

EVT - Thanks for the first impressions! Canada rocks :) (I'm still waiting on the Wet Coast)

Levesque - I am awaiting the results of your mini-shootout! Hope it goes well. I'm not familiar with your PJ - what will you be running output at (720p or 1080i)? Selfishly I'm most interested in the comparison between the LG and Denon at 720p.


For those with the 4:3 questions - the issue is what is sent out of the DVI output when scaling to 720p/1080i is engaged. The "issue" is behaviour of 4:3 SOURCE material when scaled, NOT 4:3 television sets or 4:3 PJs (though that's a whole 'nother ball of wax).

From the first impressions, it appears that 4:3 material scaled to 720/1080 and sent out of the DVI output will be stretched horizontally. 480p through component and 480p through DVI appears to be unmolested.

At this time it is unknown if it's a TV issue or a DVDP issue though conjecture has it as a DVDP issue.

[Peter Loan]

EVT,

Can you check if the Denon pillarboxes 4x3 material at 720P? That might be the dealbreaker for me.

Thanks.

[sooke]

Originally posted by EVT
Hey guys,

With respect to 4x3 material, I'm left wondering if this is something that can be blamed on the player or the way TV's are setup. I guess what I'm saying is that if a TV assumes that all 1080i/720p material is 16x9 then short of a player adding in it's own bars on 4x3 material how can a player compensate for this shortcoming on TV's?


I think it should be blamed on the player. Every HD cable box I've used (3 so far) does this automagically, so should DVD players: You setup the player/STB to know if your TV is widescreen or not. If widescreen, you tell it how you want it to handle 4:3 material: pillars, stretch, or zoom. That way as you change the channel (or for a DVD player, play 4:3 bonus material, pop in a non-anamorphic DVD, whatever) it automatically does what you want. You don't have to fiddle with your TV remote to change your aspect mode for every channel change/DVD change/track change.

I'm a little disgusted this player doesn't do this. The first DVI DVD players came out a year ago, providing an example of how not to do it (Samsung 931HD). HD cable boxes (SA3100HD, SA3250HD, SA8000HD) have been out for a few years showing how TO do it.

Can someone explain to me what would be so expensive about this feature?

Sooke

[eweiss]

Originally posted by avsnovis
There are at most only two layers per side on the DVD's, and if the viewing material is more than about 2 hrs it spills over to the next layer, correct? If so, at the most there will be only one layer change happening per side of the DVD. Is it such a big deal if that is somewhat noticeable?

Watch Kevin Spacey say, "Lieutenant" to Guy Pearce in L.A. CONFIDENTIAL, or the old couple listen to the radio broadcast in O BROTHER, WHERE ART THOU?, and you will see why noticeable layer changes are ... well, noticeable!

[KirkJ]

Don't you lose horizontal resolution on 4:3 material if you pre-squeeze and pillar box? So, I can see it being a "convienence", but I cannot see how it would be a good thing to do, especially to us video geeks.

I agree the real solution should be in the display unit, but like others have suggested, maybe switching to 480i/p would be a decent solution.

- Kirk.

[MEYJR]

If you haven't seen this in the other 1910 thread, my salesman just told me my 1910 is on the truck from their warehouse to the store right now. I will be picking it up tomorrow.

If anyone in the DFW area is waiting for 1 Kellum has 4 (minus my 1) on the way. If you want one call Mark Pritchard at Kellum. He just told me this about 20 minutes ago. They are all black though. I wanted silver but not worth waiting for. Anyone heard about when the silvers will be out?

[victorvs]

Originally posted by EVT
Since 4x3 material can only be viewed correctly at 480p, it would be nice to be able to switch to 480p via remote control.


EVT would the following be a viable workaround for this be to connect the 1910 to your Toshiba TV using both component and DVI cables at the same time, and then use your TV remote to switch the input signal between DVI and component?

Does 4x3 material look noticeably better when viewed using DVI 480p vs component 480p?

[zoro]

I dont comprehend easily, if u can get zenith with DCDI, component upscaling, DVI, for $150, why would u pay $250 for Denon, in same league!

[Paul Bigelow]

1) Picture adjustment controls
2) Better build quality
3) No white crush

(if it is stated that the white crushed is fixed via the update, then the advantage of the component upconvert goes away)

[Noah]

I can sort of understand why you guys are disappointed by the lack of pillarboxed 4:3 at 1080i, but keep in mind this is basically the first Faroudja-based player to have any proper automatic pillarboxing. There was the Mitsubishi DD8040, but it had its own problems with softness and CCS.

I don't think upconversion would provide much benefit to most 4:3 material, anyway.

EDIT: Another question for you lucky few...is the 2x zoom any good for non-anamorphic letterboxed DVDs?

[sleslie]

Originally posted by mallu2u
Not correctly displaying shall not be a deal-breaker for me as well. For 4:3, there this option of changing the mode to 480i/p and I shall do that...whats the point to upconvert 4:3 anyway..the PQ shall not be that great anyway. Ya..there is this extra step up of getting up and going to the player since its not on the remote...little painful but will get used to :)

I agree that switching to 480p should be a viable work around but EVT also stated in his review: "However, I had a hell of a time trying to watch anything at 480p through the Denon as I kept experiencing dropouts in the picture over DVI."

I am looking forward to hearing from others if they experience similar problems.

[Dave W]

720p and 1080i are HD formats, and thus are 16x9. For an upconverting DVD player to not have the option to pillarbox 4x3 is no better than if HBO-HD and SHOWTIME-HD didn't pillarbox their 4x3 shows, which I'm happy to say they do. Some clumsy workaround just isn't acceptable, since a lot of content on a DVD switches back and forth between 4x3 and 16x9 contantly, particularly in the extras.

It's absolutely no different than a DVD player not being able to letterbox 16x9 inside 4x3, which all DVD players have been able to do since day one. Any small amount of increased picture quality just isn't worth being annoyed everytime a stretched 4x3 image comes up.

What's truly frustrating is that the Faroudja chip spec sheet clearly says it will pillarbox 4x3 inside 16x9. See for yourself:

http://www.gnss.com/products/C0702-PBR-02B.PDF

As for pillarboxed 4x3 being lower in resolution, it's not really an issue. We're talking about pillarboxing a standard definition 4x3 image inside a high definition 16x9 carrier. The 4x3 center of a 720p signal is 960x720 pixels, and the 4x3 center of a 1080i signal is 1440x1080, both way higher resolution than the 720x480 pixels on the DVD.

Very disappointing!!

Dave

[Titus]

Can you change the Denon to 480p with a discrete code (Not on the Denon remote but with a TSU7000?) That would solve the issue for me.

Titus

[mallu2u]

You guys have alltogether forgot abt the other issue that EVT mentioned--Video Dropouts at 480p over DVI!! We need another reviewer to confirm whether he got a bad unit or is it another Denon bug!

[Panic 66]

Originally posted by MEYJR
[They are all black though. I wanted silver but not worth waiting for. Anyone heard about when the silvers will be out? [/B]

I sent an e-mail to Denon asking the same question. I think they may have dropped the ball when taking orders since the silver version is the DVD-755S and wasn't even listed as an available model on their website until the other day. Jim McGuinness with Denon informed me that the DVD-755s is also shipping now. The retailers I spoke to did not know about the 755. I special ordered mine from Listen Up in Denver and should be in within a week or two.

[Patrick TX]

1) Picture adjustment controls

Ok, that's true.

2) Better build quality

Debateable. It seems as if the Denon players of the last 2 years are not built all that well. I spoke with a Denon "Super Service Center" about this. Denon is not even making them in Japan anymore, China. There are hardly any build issues with the Zenith. Maybe you were thinking Momitsu, or Bravo.

3) No white crush

Remains to be seen what else is wrong with the Denon. There is NO white crush on the Zenith via component.

[swift]

Originally posted by dpippel
As many have already pointed out, most HDTV displays lock on full when receiving 720p/1080i video.

...

Denon and other manufacturers are offering customers the "advantage" of native HDTV-resolution output from regular DVDs on these players. Why is properly scaling 4:3 material at these resolutions so hard to get a grip on as a needed feature with the current state of the marketplace? We shouldn't be seeing 2nd and 3rd generation models that still force you to manually switch to 480i/p to view 1.33:1 video properly. A disappointment indeed.

HDTV monitors do not "lock on full" with 720p/1080i. Those formats are *by definition* 16:9, and the monitor is just showing the 16:9 signal that it is receiving. There is no reason for a monitor ever to offer to shrink such a signal horizontally. The monitor should just be supplied with a source that hasn't been inappropriately expanded horizontally. If a 4:3 source appears horizontally expanded at 720p/1080i on a monitor, it is because the DVD players is horizontally expanding the image. The DVD player, not the TV is "locking on full."

[swift]

Originally posted by KirkJ
Don't you lose horizontal resolution on 4:3 material if you pre-squeeze and pillar box? So, I can see it being a "convienence", but I cannot see how it would be a good thing to do, especially to us video geeks.

I agree the real solution should be in the display unit, but like others have suggested, maybe switching to 480i/p would be a decent solution.

- Kirk.

No, you don't: the name "squeeze" for the function on the Denon DVD-2910 and DVD-3910 is a misleading name. It means "refrain from expanding." In fact, using pillars during upconversion is going to give you higher quality, because to expand you have to process the image once, whereas adding pillars you do not.

The only reason monitors should implement a "squeeze" function for native 16:9 formats (720p and 1080i) is to compensate for braindead DVD players (or set-top boxes, etc.) that stupidly provide an inappropriately expanded 4:3 image on a 720p or 1080i signal.

[tsteves]

Re: EVT "Video Dropouts at 480p over DVI"
I cannot imagine this as any kind of real problem, other than with EVT's unit.
One report does not a problem make.
Then again, if more people report it...

[keenan]

Originally posted by tsteves
Re: EVT "Video Dropouts at 480p over DVI"
I cannot imagine this as any kind of real problem, other than with EVT's unit.
One report does not a problem make.
Then again, if more people report it...

Sounds like a cable problem, has he tried a different DVI cable?

Jim

[HeaTransfer]

I love AVS.

Brief AVS product lifecycle:

1. Manufacturer's Announcement.
"YAaaaAAAAY - this is gonna be The Best Product Evar (tm). Can't wait!"

2. Scrutinization.
"I don't believe they omitted this feature. You'd think after all these generations they'd get it right. "

"Geesh it better have (insert brand new hardware or software standard here)."

3. Denigration.
(owners of other, competing products) "You know it still doesn't have feature X or feature Y. They still haven't fixed this issue and the build quality just isn't there. Nyahnyah."

4. Anticipation.
"Any word on _________?"
"Hey mfg rep - what's the latest on __________?"
"How will ________ compare to (currently available product)?"

5. Anticipation.

"How does ______ compare to (currently available product)?"
"How much will this thing cost?"

6. Anticipation.

"How does _______ compare to (another just-announced and yet unavailable product)?"
"Is it out yet?"
"It's shipping!!!!"
"You can preorder it on fleabay!"

7. Disillusionment.

"Dammit they pushed back the release date."

8. Denigration.

"They're not getting my business cuz they keep on pushing back the release date"

8a. Anticipation.

9. Reception.
"My distributor just called and they'll have it in tomorrow"
"I just got back from the store. I'll post first impressions soon."

10. Evaluation.
"It's the Best Player Evar, except for this little quirk and this little issue..."

11. Denigration.
"I don't believe that they didn't fix it"
"OMGOMGOMGOMGWTFBBQ it's got (insert tiny little bug that 0.1% of the users experience here)!!!!!"
"Each time they say it's fixed and it's not. It's all a conspiracy to get you to buy more stuff!"

12. Confusion
(newbie)
"So what is this problem?"
"Should I be worried?"
"How will it affect me and my setup?"
"help!"

13. Denigration.

"They sent me firmware but it didn't resolve the problem!"
"Billybob's unit broke and thus all units are unreliable."

.
.
.

14. Manufacturer's Announcement.
"YAaaaAAAAY - this is gonna be The Best Product Evar (tm). Can't wait!"

Lather, rinse and repeat.

[tsteves]

keenan
you may be right. It's an rptv so the cable is probably not too long, though.

[keenan]

Originally posted by tsteves
keenan
you may be right. It's an rptv so the cable is probably not too long, though.

True, but I was rather shocked myself when I first got my 5900 and used a DVI cable that came with my Samsung HD STB. When I first hooked it up and the pic was not very good I went and purchased an AudioQuest DVI cable and beautiful images commenced from there on out. So even though cable is cable some must be better than others:D

Jim

[tsteves]

agreed. cheap dvi cables are amazingly cheaply made.
New technologies are possibly where cables are not necessarily "just cables".

[KirkJ]

But if it works on 1080i and 720p but just not on 480p, I would guess that his player (or maybe his TV?) has some kind of problem with 480p over DVI, probably not the cable.

Dave W, thanks for the horizontal resolution reply.

- Kirk.

[Rhoniel Kase]

Originally posted by HeaTransfer
I love AVS.

Brief AVS product lifecycle:

1. Manufacturer's Announcement.
"YAaaaAAAAY - this is gonna be The Best Product Evar (tm). Can't wait!"


<<<snip>>


14. Manufacturer's Announcement.
"YAaaaAAAAY - this is gonna be The Best Product Evar (tm). Can't wait!"

Lather, rinse and repeat.

LOL :D . So true.

Rhoniel

[keenan]

Originally posted by KirkJ
But if it works on 1080i and 720p but just not on 480p, I would guess that his player (or maybe his TV?) has some kind of problem with 480p over DVI, probably not the cable.

Dave W, thanks for the horizontal resolution reply.

- Kirk.

True, I threw that out there as something I would check on GP.

Jim

[LEVESQUE]

I was able to try the 1910 tonight and compare it with my LG7832 (Zenith clone). My LG was bought the 1st day it came out, and has the first firmware version, and I didn't perform any firmware upgrades on it.

-I don't have any problem with 480p over DVI. Works pretty well for me, just like 720p and 1080i, and this on my Sony 40XBR800 and my projector. So it's maybe a problem with EVT display, or because he got a faulty 1910.

-Like EVT, I find both picture quality to be almost the same. On my Sony 40XBR800 they are like twin players to me. BUT, on my 110" screen, the Denon is a little bit less "noisy" and the background a little bit less "grainy". On a big screen, all those little flaws are getting emphazized.

-Over DVI, the Denon doesn't clip or crushes the whites like the LG. The LG does it badly over DVI, but doesn't do it at all over component.

-The Denon over DVI is a little bit "cleaner" at 720p then the LG over component at 720p.

-The Denon has more accurate colors, and particularly doesn't exhibit the green push that I clearly see with the LG. My projector was calibrated by William Phelps, and the colors are dead-on. So this "green push" is really a problem of the LG.

-The blacks are a little better on the Denon.

So far, I give the edge to the Denon. But I didn't try any 4:3 material (because I have only 3 or 4 titles in my over 800 titles collection...). But I will try it tomorrow.

On the 40" screen of my Sony 40XBR800, the PQ is pratically the same. But on my 110" with my projector, the Denon is a little cleaner and less grainy then the LG. But it's far from beeing something major. The overall PQ is almost the same when using the Denon with DVI at 720p and the LG with component at 720p.

[jonapod]

"<sniiiiip..>

14. Manufacturer's Announcement.
"YAaaaAAAAY - this is gonna be The Best Product Evar (tm). Can't wait!"

Lather, rinse and repeat."


TOO Funny!! :) :) But how true! I have a 3910 on order; I think I'm on number 11 right now.. :confused:

-Jonathan

[lovingdvd]

EVT - You mentioned that the 1910 offers controls such as brightness and contrast adjustments. Can you please confirm that you can make these adjustments over the DVI output in particular?

Also regarding the 4x3 issue - if someone such as myself does not care about this issue, would you have any hesitation recommending the 1910?

Lastly, does anyone know if this 4x3 issue is present with the Bravo D1 player? I have that player now, and never noticed a problem with 4x3 content (not that I ever really watch it). Just curious if I already have the same 4x3 issue with my D1. If so, obviously I won't be bothered by this issue with the 1910 since I never noticed it. But if the D1 does not have this issue, that could explain why I never really noticed it...

Thanks!

[Jim Noyd]

Originally posted by lovingdvd
Lastly, does anyone know if this 4x3 issue is present with the Bravo D1 player? I have that player now, and never noticed a problem with 4x3 content (not that I ever really watch it). Just curious if I already have the same 4x3 issue with my D1. If so, obviously I won't be bothered by this issue with the 1910 since I never noticed it. But if the D1 does not have this issue, that could explain why I never really noticed it...
The Bravo D1/2 will place pillar bars on 4:3 mastered DVDs. To scale them to their proper aspect ratio, press the ZOOM button once on the player's remote. I had another reviewer call today for an accomodation on a Bravo D2, as his reference player force-stretches this material and the Bravo handles this perfectly.

[tennberg]

EVT:

You said in your first post that with the 1910, there "doesn't appear to be a Y/C delay problem with the player set to 480p". What exactly does that mean?

I currently have the Denon 910, and am trading it in to Tweeter for a 1910. Any DVD I watch in 16:9 480p format over component video to my Sony XBR960 flickers and jumps. This does not occur in 480i or in 4:3 format.

Might the Y/C delay problem be related to this?

Thanks!

P.S. - Tweeter in Boston (Comm. Ave.) expects 100 units in on the 10th and to start selling on the 14th.

[Fletch1234]

I would like to get the opinion of someone who has experimented with these different players. I'm looking to get the best video quality I can at the most reasonable cost. I'm running a Mitsubishi 55413 RPTV. It does have DVI input, but I've read that on a RPTV, DVI doesn't make a ton to difference. I recently bought a 318 from Best Buy (to beat the firmware mod on the way) but haven't had time to play with it just yet.

For those of you with more experience at this than me, would you take the older DVD-1600 or one of the newer "up-converting" ones, the Zenith 318 or the Denon 1910? I have the option of choosing either, and saw the good remarks for the 1600 in the benchmark tests, even though it's a little dated.

Right now I'm using a basic Samsung player with 480P. I will say this basic machine displayed near as good a picture as a Denon 910, which I later returned. I'd rather not spend a fair chunk of change for only a marginal increase in PQ.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Chris

[JeronimoColon]

Originally posted by Patrick TX
Ok, that's true.



Debateable. It seems as if the Denon players of the last 2 years are not built all that well. I spoke with a Denon "Super Service Center" about this. Denon is not even making them in Japan anymore, China. There are hardly any build issues with the Zenith. Maybe you were thinking Momitsu, or Bravo.



Remains to be seen what else is wrong with the Denon. There is NO white crush on the Zenith via component.

Well actually to be technical - there is a little, but you need a calibration disc to notice it.

[daumier]

Greetings all --

Just picked up the 1910 earlier today. Unfortunately, I bought a DVI-DVI cable as opposed to a DVI-HDMI cable so I did not have the opportunity to view the upconversion (my tv has an HDMI input). I'm using the component video connection in 480p instead.

The component (progressive) pic in 480p is simply amazing. the picture is very vivid and clear -- with great colors (I don't know how else to describe it since I am not quite the videophile :-) ). My previous player was an old Toshiba SD1209 (I think) - and it simply cannot compete with the 1910.

One interesting issue that I have encountered is that my XBR960 wrongly detects the signal from the DVD player as 4:3 -- eventhough the material is clearly widescreen (anarmorphic). To view widescreen material, I now have to manually set to 'Full'. With my old Toshiba player, the TV correctly picks up the 16:9 format. This matters to me because, when viewing SDTV in 4:3 - I usually use the 'wide-zoom' mode -- which stretches 4:3 materials with less distortion than the 'full' mode would.

In any case - has anyone else encountered this issue? Is this a problem that is specific with my TV? Incidentally, I did set the 'TV Aspect' on the DVD player to 16:9 Wide -- but the TV still detects the programming as 4:3.

Thanks!

D

[HAndrade]

Any idea of a region free hack yet???

[dpippel]

HDTV monitors do not "lock on full" with 720p/1080i.
Semantics. This term is commonly used here to describe the fact that most HDTV displays disable all aspect ratio controls when receiving a HiDef video signal.
Those formats are *by definition* 16:9, and the monitor is just showing the 16:9 signal that it is receiving. There is no reason for a monitor ever to offer to shrink such a signal horizontally.
Using this logic your restriction should be applied to DVD sources that upconvert to HiDef as well. Since they're supplying a HiDef source signal that's "by definition" 16:9, why should they offer AR control?

The bottom line is that DVD player manufacturers are ignoring the realities of the marketplace. Consumers need flexible and convenient aspect ratio control for 720p/1080i sources. Ideally that control should be supplied by the source component (see HDTV STBs). As has already been stated in this thread, the finger-pointing solves nothing and the consumer loses as a result.

[tennberg]

daumier:

I'd like to have you check something, if possible.

With the 1910 hooked up to your XBR960 via component video, could you watch some DVDs in 480p 16:9? So far, on my DVD-910, every DVD I watch in 480p 16:9 jumps and flickers at the top of the screen of the XBR960. This does not occur in 480i 16:9, 480i 4:3, or 480p 4:3. I especially noticed it throughout "Finding Nemo" and the scene in "The Fifth Element" where they recover the hand from the crash site and regenerate it.

I will be exchanging my 910 for a 1910 in about a week. I'm hoping the issue you describe where the XBR960 detects widescreen format as 4:3 is an isolated case. Nevertheless, the place where I bought the 910 from (which is also the place where I bought the XBR960 from) said they would work with me until they found a DVD player that worked with my TV.

[kevinca1]

For the love of pete 1080i is 16x9 PERIOD ITS NOT 4x3!!!!!!!!!!! That is the original ascpect andf there is no reason any one should make a player that changes the 1080i aspect to somethig its not. What do you think you are going to gain anyways.

[Sango]

Does anyone have the 1910 and an RP82 to see how the two units compare in PQ?

[Maccur]

My reservation has to do with the lack of remote control button to cycle between 480p/720/1080i. If it's designed to show 4:3 material in 480p, fine, but give us the convenience to set via remote rather than having to change via a button on the front of the player. Because of this, I won't be buying. I watch a lot of older movies and concerts all in 4:3. Just another annoying little detail to forget when changing discs.

[Noah]

Originally posted by kevinca1
For the love of pete 1080i is 16x9 PERIOD ITS NOT 4x3!!!!!!!!!!! That is the original ascpect andf there is no reason any one should make a player that changes the 1080i aspect to somethig its not. What do you think you are going to gain anyways. OK...while I feel there'd be little to gain by upscaling most 4:3 material, let's not preach 1080i = 16:9 as gospel.

4:3 stretched to 16:9 is changing the original "aspect to somethig [sic] its not."

What's gained is proper aspect ratio without having to muck around with resolutions. IOW, ease of use.

[iblumberg]

I just get the 1910 last night at the local Andersons TV in Redwood City. When I called yesterday afternoon, they had 2 left of which I reserved and purchased 1. I have no idea if any are left now.

I have an Optoma H77 DLP projector with native 1280x720 resoltion connected to the 1910.

I can confirm that there are no pillar box options on the 1910 at any resolution. This is not a concern for me as the H77 has a pillar box mode that is available at any resolution.

I can also confirm that the picture controls for sharpness, and color definitely work in DVI mode as I have modified both and seen the difference. I have not played with contrast, brightness, or gamma yet as these all seem fine as set on the H77.

I tried 480p on DVI and had no problems or drop outs as well, but as I said, I have no need for this mode as I can just leave the player on 720p DVI all the time and adjust the aspect ratios / boxing on the H77.

The picture looks nice and seems to have more contrast than my Panasonic RP82 provided. I found this surprising, but after calibrating with AVIA, I noticed that I had set the brightness much lower and the contrast much higher with the 1910 and the picture seemed to have more contrast overall. Note that black level expansion is on by default and this threw off my calibration a bit, but even after turning it off, contrast was still better than with the RP82.

I have not done any A/B comparisons with the RP82, and I doubt I will. I like using the DVI interface and doing all the scaling in the digitial domain, and the picture looks good enough that I'm satisfied without doing any more testing.

I'm slightly disappointed that the 1910 does not have any options to control de-interlacing modes, noise reduction modes, etc. as the RP82 and the higher priced Denons do, but that is a minor point.

Overall, for my set up this is a good player at a very reasonable price.

Ira

[kevinca1]

Noah i understand what you are saying but it is gospel that 1080i is 16x9. it is the native resolution, i can not undertsand like q said above you have to put the disk in why cant you just change it back to 480i/p which is what 4x3 is.also i dont understand why anyone wants to take the chance of burn in buy watching 4x3.

[mallu2u]

Originally posted by daumier
Greetings all --

Just picked up the 1910 earlier today. Unfortunately, I bought a DVI-DVI cable as opposed to a DVI-HDMI cable so I did not have the opportunity to view the upconversion (my tv has an HDMI input). I'm using the component video connection in 480p instead.

The component (progressive) pic in 480p is simply amazing. the picture is very vivid and clear -- with great colors (I don't know how else to describe it since I am not quite the videophile :-) ). My previous player was an old Toshiba SD1209 (I think) - and it simply cannot compete with the 1910.

One interesting issue that I have encountered is that my XBR960 wrongly detects the signal from the DVD player as 4:3 -- eventhough the material is clearly widescreen (anarmorphic). To view widescreen material, I now have to manually set to 'Full'. With my old Toshiba player, the TV correctly picks up the 16:9 format. This matters to me because, when viewing SDTV in 4:3 - I usually use the 'wide-zoom' mode -- which stretches 4:3 materials with less distortion than the 'full' mode would.

In any case - has anyone else encountered this issue? Is this a problem that is specific with my TV? Incidentally, I did set the 'TV Aspect' on the DVD player to 16:9 Wide -- but the TV still detects the programming as 4:3.

Thanks!

D

There must be an option in the DVD player settings, where u can specify that the TV is 16:9 and not 4:3. try that.

[Noah]

Originally posted by kevinca1
Noah i understand what you are saying but it is gospel that 1080i is 16x9. it is the native resolution, i can not undertsand like q said above you have to put the disk in why cant you just change it back to 480i/p which is what 4x3 is.also i dont understand why anyone wants to take the chance of burn in buy watching 4x3. Kevin, let's be practical. Nobody wants to watch 4:3 stretched. It's just unpleasant.

Burn in or not, I'm not going to live with it.

Besides, it's getting to be (if it wasn't before) that CRT RPTVs are in the minority among the wide variety of displays people have here. The rest of us don't worry so much (or at all) about burn in and certainly don't live by absolutes of what aspect a certain resolution should be displayed as when it's going to distort our viewing material.

[keenan]

Originally posted by Noah


Besides, it's getting to be (if it wasn't before) that CRT RPTVs are in the minority among the wide variety of displays people have here. The rest of us don't worry so much (or at all) about burn in and certainly don't live by absolutes of what aspect a certain resolution should be displayed as when it's going to distort our viewing material.

Maybe here, but there are more CRT RPTV's going out the door at my local Good Guys by quite a margin, then smaller direct view CRT's with DLP's third, but to me the DLP's don't compare in PQ, yet.

Jim

[BillP]

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
I look forward to the inevitable comparisions between this unit and the Zenith 318 among other peers...

In another thread, the 1910 was compared with Zenith. The Denon was considered by the poster to be a little better in terms of PQ and build, and had no black crush or (unlike Zenith) white crush.

[Maccur]

Do I understand it that the ONLY reason you would not buy this player is because you'd have to take an extra couple of seconds, depending on what you want to watch, to press an extra button on the unit before you put the disc in and play anyways?

Yes. That piece of crap Toshiba 5960 had the option. Why not Denon?

[keenan]

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ


I'll tell ya, I usually wear the lazy crown pretty proudly, but every so often, I read some things on this forum that make even me balk. :p

Being lazy is not the point, to leave out one function out of all the others which can be done by the remote is just stupid. I am sure many folks are like me, I almost never even touch the player, one of the reasons, which may seem silly, but your body carries an electrostatic charge and when you touch the player that charge can transfer to the unit, it may be nothing, but you know what a charge like that can do to a computer memory stick. The disc tray is made of non-conducting material, so when putting the disc in I still don't touch the player. In fact, I really never actually touch any of my equipment, that's what the remote is for, and to leave out this function must have been an oversight or too expensive to implement .

Jim

[GrantMeThePower]

Originally posted by iblumberg
I'm slightly disappointed that the 1910 does not have any options to control de-interlacing modes, noise reduction modes, etc. as the RP82 and the higher priced Denons do, but that is a minor point.
Ira

Does this mean that the 1910 has built in noise reduction that is impossible to turn off? This seems like a major downfall to the player for those of us with front PJ systems that don't want any processing like this down on the player itself.

I'm hopeful that this lack of option simply means that there is no noise reduction processing at all (which is why it couldn't be changed) but does anyone have the full answer? If there is undeafetable NR software, does the 2910 and 3910 have the same, only they would be defeatable?

Thanks.

[edfowler]

Has anyone with a Momitsu 880 gone for the 1910, and if so, how does the picture quality compare? The main thing I am interested in is the PQ.

[LEVESQUE]

My Denon 5900 has a built-in adjustable Mosquito Noise Reduction algorithm that is working wonders on my PJ, and a pletora of other useful noise reduction settings. I know it's not the Algolith, but it's working pretty well in my system.

My 1910 and my LG7832 (Zenith clone) both don't have this feature, and it clearly shows on a 110'' screen when side-by-side with my 5900. Background is more noisy. On my 40'' and 34'' screen, there is no differences. The 3 are not noisy at all, because of the size of the screens that is minimizing this ''problem''.

[keenan]

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ


At $2000, I'd better have a unit that does everything short of doing my laundry. I would understand this level of annoycance, but at around $200-$250, if the unit itself kicks ass, which it sounds like it does... Hey! Buy it! :D [/B]

True, you get what you pay for and my remarks were geared toward my 5900. And the static discharge is very common, at least in my climate. I have actually seen the spark when I have touched some of my equipment without rubbing my hand on the rack first to discharge the energy.

Jim :)

[Maccur]

That almost sounds like an outright climate and lack of humidity issue! Is the room too dry? :P

You're talking to Californians, home to bone-dry humidity...and lazy guys as well!

Look it's not the fact that we actually have to push a button, at least not for me. But I can envision times where the kids will put in one of their TV show DVDs, or a concert DVD, and they'll forget to push the button on the front of the player. "Daaaad! Why did you buy this thing?''
Then the wife will put in one of her old 4:3 movies and forget to push the button before sitting down. "Why did you buy this thing?''....etc. etc. etc.
It's simply a convenience factor that really should be offered at this price point considering every day players are going for $50.

[kevinca1]

Sorry i dont get your point if its on the remote or the device, will they also forget to go into the menu which would take more time to do and more hassle if you really think about it. also it is only doing what it is suppose to do with a 1080i signal and that is make it its Native Resoltion of 16x9,

[Noah]

Originally posted by kevinca1
it is only doing what it is suppose to do with a 1080i signal and that is make it its Native Resoltion of 16x9, 16:9 isn't a "resoltion" or even a resolution. Pillarboxed 4:3 is really still 16:9 anyway.
Originally posted by Maccur
Look it's not the fact that we actually have to push a button, at least not for me. But I can envision times where the kids will put in one of their TV show DVDs, or a concert DVD, and they'll forget to push the button on the front of the player. "Daaaad! Why did you buy this thing?''
Then the wife will put in one of her old 4:3 movies and forget to push the button before sitting down. "Why did you buy this thing?''....etc. etc. etc.
It's simply a convenience factor that really should be offered at this price point considering every day players are going for $50. You could always get the wife & kids another player that handles all the AR issues and just have them use that, provided you've got enough inputs. Something like a Toshiba SD3960 or an RP91. Then when you're around to run the show you can fire up the Denon. I don't think its worth giving up this kind of performance for a fairly minor issue like this, but to each their own.

[daumier]

Originally posted by mallu2u
There must be an option in the DVD player settings, where u can specify that the TV is 16:9 and not 4:3. try that.

mallu2u - there is - and I did set the DVD player to 16:9 widescreen (the other options are 4:3 letterbox and 4:3 pan and scan). However, the TV still detects the material as 4:3. I have to set the screen setting on the TV to 'Full' in order to see the material properly in 16:9. I'm wondering now whether this is an isolated case w/ my player -- anyone else have this problem with the Sonys?

Originally posted by tennberg
daumier:

I'd like to have you check something, if possible.

With the 1910 hooked up to your XBR960 via component video, could you watch some DVDs in 480p 16:9? So far, on my DVD-910, every DVD I watch in 480p 16:9 jumps and flickers at the top of the screen of the XBR960. This does not occur in 480i 16:9, 480i 4:3, or 480p 4:3. I especially noticed it throughout "Finding Nemo" and the scene in "The Fifth Element" where they recover the hand from the crash site and regenerate it.

I will be exchanging my 910 for a 1910 in about a week. I'm hoping the issue you describe where the XBR960 detects widescreen format as 4:3 is an isolated case. Nevertheless, the place where I bought the 910 from (which is also the place where I bought the XBR960 from) said they would work with me until they found a DVD player that worked with my TV.

Tennberg - I will try this tonight - I have both movies and I'll pay attention to those scenes. I will say that I can watch movies in 480p in 16:9 without any distortion if I set my tv screen setting to 'Full'. In fact, if I leave the screen setting as 'normal' (the default setting the tv goes into if it detects 4:3 materials), the picture is squeezed.

[dpippel]

What's the problem, guy? You're already standing there in front of the unit anyways so you can put the disc in the machine.
Has no one reading this thread ever watched extras? It is QUITE common for anamorphic and non-anamorphic material to be mixed together in the same documentary, making of, etc. This issue has NOTHING to do with laziness. It's all about the manufacturer of a product offering the buyers of that product the most convenience for their dollar. The source component should handle AR correctly at *any* resolution - period. DVD video is (mostly) flagged for it properly already. Why should I have to worry about it? I shouldn't. At this stage in the game there's no reason other than laziness on the part of the engineering/marketing teams designing these upconverting players that we're still having this discussion at all. Sheesh! I wonder how many more sales Denon would generate if the 1910/2910/3910 actually offered AR control at 720p/1080i? Maybe they should think about that.

[Robert Whitehead]

How about separating this into 2 threads. One for those who want to gripe about the lack of aspect control on the 1910 (the overwhelming majority of posts in this thread), and the other for those who want to post their comments on performance of the 1910?

[ahro]

Found a 1910 in New York. Sound City had one, and a lot of 3910s. The 1910 cost $225 (plus tax). I'm a happy camper, just cancelled my order with Crutchfield's. Now, I hope the player works and the PQ is good. Found it when I went to the Denon site and called every one of their dealers in my area. The build is cheesy, but set-up is easy. On other players, the Bravo D2, which I returned and, I think the Sanyo, in order to get the DVI port going you had to set up through component. The 1910 coudn't be easier. Just connect the DVI and go. There's an LCD readout as to whether you're in 480, 720 or 1080 mode. PQ is good, but incrementally so. My RP82 is a great player and I can't see much difference in a reference DVD - North by Northwest. Still learning about the picture modes. The black level mode is either on or off, although the instruction manual leads you to think you can adjust it to any level you want. I would say in terms of PQ (my projector's native mode is 720p) there is very little difference between the 1910 in DVI and my RP82 in component mode

[Patrick TX]

I am sure many folks are like me, I almost never even touch the player, one of the reasons, which may seem silly, but your body carries an electrostatic charge and when you touch the player that charge can transfer to the unit, it may be nothing, but you know what a charge like that can do to a computer memory stick. The disc tray is made of non-conducting material, so when putting the disc in I still don't touch the player. In fact, I really never actually touch any of my equipment, that's what the remote is for, and to leave out this function must have been an oversight or too expensive to implement .

C'mon, touch it, You KNOW you want to. LMAO.

[bruce2003]

Originally posted by ahro
would say in terms of PQ (my projector's native mode is 720p) there is very little difference between the 1910 in DVI and my RP82 in component mode

Wow, I figured the difference would be more noticable. Already bought the DVI cable. Not sure if I'll take the plunge now as I'm pretty happy with the RP-82, except that I have occasional synching issues (I bought a refurb from Panasonic).

To step up to the 2910, now that's the question...

[keenan]

Originally posted by Patrick TX
C'mon, touch it, You KNOW you want to. LMAO.

:D :D

Jim

[keenan]

Originally posted by Maccur
You're talking to Californians, home to bone-dry humidity...and lazy guys as well!



That's us!! To a fault. 98 degrees and about 16% humidity currently at 4 PM and the hills are burning. :D :D

Jim

[keenan]

Originally posted by dpippel
This issue has NOTHING to do with laziness. It's all about the manufacturer of a product offering the buyers of that product the most convenience for their dollar.

Exactly, I still don't understand why the $2000 5900 doesn't have a screen saver, does the 1910 have one?

Jim

[keenan]

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
If you buy yourselves a humidifier, you can actually touch your electronics! :D

Yeah, but then I would have to wear gloves to keep the skin oil from getting on the equipment. :p

Jim

[dpippel]

So, would I be correct in saying that this player might be a giant-killer? If it's better than the Zenith 318 and is about the same price, more or less...this might be the new king of the under $500 mountain.
Unless you want upconversion over component.

[dpippel]

That's us!! To a fault. 98 degrees and about 16% humidity currently at 4 PM and the hills are burning.
Just move to San Fran... :)

[tsteves]

dpippel
"Unless you want upconversion over component."
right on. I got the 318 for my bedroom rptv-crt. Now I need something to replace my current lr (theater) pioneer 563a. I want to move that to the br for sacd and cd, saving the 318 for dvds. I want something with real good audio and video. Not sure where I'm going. If denon link gets sacd, that would be my choice probably, if not, the 2910 or 1910. Leaning toward 2910 over 1910 for sound quality, which will be important.

[Patrick TX]

So, would I be correct in saying that this player might be a giant-killer?

The Zenith is the giant killer IMO. Look at the 3910 thread. It also costs $160 delivered at Amazon, and is easily regionfree, converts PAL-NTSC, and upconverts over component. I'd rather have my DVI free for my HD anyway.

[hancox]

Originally posted by Patrick TX
The Zenith is the giant killer IMO. Look at the 3910 thread. It also costs $160 delivered at Amazon, and is easily regionfree, converts PAL-NTSC, and upconverts over component. I'd rather have my DVI free for my HD anyway.


not *entirely* true. the rumor mill is grinding regarding a firmware upg that will disable component upconversion on anything that's not on shelves now.

[keenan]

Originally posted by dpippel
Just move to San Fran... :)

I'm about 65 miles north of SF now, besides, I don't have a spare $1million laying around to get a place down there. :)

Jim

[Patrick TX]

the rumor mill is grinding

Indeed it is, and it has been for almost a year...Meanwhile the facts are the facts.

[salrmrcrey]

i may have missed this answer on the many pages of this forum, but will the 2910 sound better in everything including dvd's or is it just better for sacd and dvd-a's ?

[BillP]

Originally posted by Patrick TX
The Zenith is the giant killer IMO. Look at the 3910 thread. It also costs $160 delivered at Amazon, and is easily regionfree, converts PAL-NTSC, and upconverts over component. I'd rather have my DVI free for my HD anyway.

I disagree. Upconversion over component will probably no longer be available for new Zenith purchases very soon. And the 1910 reportedly has better PQ in at least one head-to-head comparison over DVI (in another comparison over component, they were tied). I'm not sure what you are referring to in the 3910 thread. Some are unhappy that some functions are missing from the remote, but the video and audio quality are reported as outstanding, and excellent build quality (slightly better than the 2900). No question that the Zenith is a great value, but it is not a giant killer.

[keenan]

Originally posted by BillP
I disagree. Upconversion over component will probably no longer be available for new Zenith purchases very soon.

That was my understanding also. Those players were never supposed to be released with component up-conversion active and somewhere on this forum I think there is a press release indicating that.

Jim

[GSOgymrat]

This may be a dumb question but if I have a 1910 and want to watch 4:3 DVD material with pillarbars can't I just switch my TV's picture size mode?

[JeronimoColon]

Originally posted by keenan
True, you get what you pay for and my remarks were geared toward my 5900. And the static discharge is very common, at least in my climate. I have actually seen the spark when I have touched some of my equipment without rubbing my hand on the rack first to discharge the energy.

Jim :)

We suffer from constant static discharge in my apartment as well and it can get very annoying very quickly... :(

[JeronimoColon]

Originally posted by Maccur
You're talking to Californians, home to bone-dry humidity...and lazy guys as well!

Look it's not the fact that we actually have to push a button, at least not for me. But I can envision times where the kids will put in one of their TV show DVDs, or a concert DVD, and they'll forget to push the button on the front of the player. "Daaaad! Why did you buy this thing?''
Then the wife will put in one of her old 4:3 movies and forget to push the button before sitting down. "Why did you buy this thing?''....etc. etc. etc.
It's simply a convenience factor that really should be offered at this price point considering every day players are going for $50.

You let your kids touch your eq. rack? :eek:

[JeronimoColon]

Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
How about separating this into 2 threads. One for those who want to gripe about the lack of aspect control on the 1910 (the overwhelming majority of posts in this thread), and the other for those who want to post their comments on performance of the 1910?

I second that!

(oh and I'll shut up now :D )

[Mixdoctor]

From reading this I don't know whether it's worth it for me to upgrade from my RP-82 to the 1910. No noticable difference to a slight difference isn't worth $250 or so. Maybe I should wait for the Sammy 941 or the Panny DVI player ?

[iblumberg]

Mixdoctor,

Given that I upgraded from an RP82 to the 1910, I'd say if you can wait, definitely wait. I'm sure Secrets will review all of the new crop of DVI-upconverters once they are generally available. We may well see a situation akin to the Denon 1600 / Pana RP82 & XP30 & XP 50 days where the Denon performs well, but extremely similar machines with lower prices perform just as well and have more options for setting video parameters.

Meanwhile as I mentioned a few pages back, I'm satisfied with my 1910. The picture looks very nice, I'm not using the scaler in my projector (which has been accused by some users as being a bit soft) and I didn't break the bank. For all I know, when the Secrets review comes out, I may be in a rush to e-bay the 1910. However, for now, I have seen no deal breakers and I'm generally pleased with the performance for the price.

I will echo and expand upon the frustration of some others in this thread. From what I can tell from the Faroudja 2301 data sheet, it appears that the chip can do pillar boxing as well as having various parameters that can be tweaked for picture quality. Denon chose not to give the user access to any of these features in the 1910, presumbably to create greater perceived value for the far more expensive 2910 and 3910. I find this type of marketing frustrating and mean spirited. Effectively, these features come along for free with the 2301, but Denon decided not to provide any user interface to manipulate them. Again, these added features are all nice to have, but none is a deal breaker. Paying another $500 for a player like the 2910 that includes the above features, now that is a deal breaker for me.

Ira

[Patrick TX]

in another comparison over component, they were tied

How is a $159 player TYING a $1300 FLAGSHIP player not simply amazing? People have been knocking the Zenith for MONTHS about component being disabled, but they just KEEP COMING. Make no mistake, it IS a giant killer. Ask the original giant killers that the Zenith took down (Panasonic RP82, XP's, DVD-1600).

[tennberg]

daumier:

Did you have a chance to watch those 16:9 480p DVDs over component to your XBR960 yet? I'm curious to know whether or not the picture jumped and flickered. If it did, I really don't know which DVD player I'd get. I am ready to exchange my 910 for the 1910, but not if it still causes 16:9 480p material over component to flicker like it does.

[pivot]

Originally posted by EVT
All in all, by biggest pet peeve is the player's inability to properly display 4x3 material at 1080i or 720p. I could have lived with this if the DVI button was also on the remote as you can switch resolution settings on the fly with the Denon. Thus, if the DVI button was on the remote I would be willing to watch 4x3 material in 480p. The majority of 4x3 material I watch is DVD special features so I don't mind giving up 1080i on such material.

It would be interesting to check if it's possible to change output mode with the remote that coms with the 2910, which would make it possible to use a programmable remote.

[John Ballentine]

Originally posted by eweiss
Watch Kevin Spacey say, "Lieutenant" to Guy Pearce in L.A. CONFIDENTIAL, or the old couple listen to the radio broadcast in O BROTHER, WHERE ART THOU?, and you will see why noticeable layer changes are ... well, noticeable!

I AGREE! If DVD player manufacturers can add memory to get rid of layer changes - do it! I never see a layer change on a Superbit title - and it's very nice knowing there won't be a little "blip" half way through the movie.

[Kenlex]

Originally posted by GSOgymrat
This may be a dumb question but if I have a 1910 and want to watch 4:3 DVD material with pillarbars can't I just switch my TV's picture size mode?

'Round and 'round we go (again!). Many HDTVs don't let you "switch [the] TV's picture size mode" to NORMAL when you're viewing DVI input at 720p or 1080i. The consensus view is that, given the defined standards, that is not an unreasonable approach for the TV to take, and therefore we need the source (DVD player) to provide this function.

[pivot]

Can anyone with a 1910 take a few high res pictures of the internal of the player, especially the pcb? I'm interested in knowing how mod'able the player is wrt to replacing the master clock crystal with an lcaudio.com lclock.

[MEYJR]

I picked up my 1910 yesterday and got it hooked up last night. I did not have much time to play with it though. But I did notice a couple of things I may need help.

1. Darker scenes look very grainy. Like the opening night scene in Finding Nemo and the darker scenes in Cold Mountain. The brighter more colorful scenes are beautiful. Is there a setting I am missing? I did realize you had to go into the settings and turn progressive on and change the settings to 16:9. What else am I missing to help the grainy problem?

2. I do not get any picture in 480 or 720. The screen goes blue and no picture ever returns until I go back to 1080. Is this something with my hook up? I am using DVI for video. Also can someone explain to me why you would want to use 480 or 720 if 1080 is available. I am a newbie with this stuff and haven't figured all of this out yet.

If anyone in the DFW area wants to come checkout the 1910 let me know. I am viewing it on a Mits. 65813 and using a 3805 for sound.

[kevinca1]

You can not say the 318 is a giant killer because it does not have the same things as the 3910 does ie sacd or dvd audio it is not a fair comparison,

[Jim Noyd]

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
Kenlex: Guess I'm lucky that my Zenith c32v37 lets me control aspect ratio so I don't run into some of these problems. ;)

Meyjr: You'll see healthy arguments about 720p vs. 1080i. I tend to like 720p for football, sports, and other fast paced visuals and 1080i for movie viewing myself. It just depends...
Q-
Check your manual, I don't think your TV displays 720p, but scales it to 1080i.

[sckor]

I picked up a 1910 yesterday to hook up to my Sanyo PLV-Z2 projector.

I'm happy to report that the DVI interface seems to work flawlessly between the two. I was able to switch between all of the modes (480p, 720p, 1080i) and did not witness any unusual artifacts in any of the modes. My Z2 is also one of the older ones (1.03 fw), so I was a little concerned w/HDCP compatibility.

My first impressions are that the PQ is great - it's nice to have the 720p scaling done by Faroudja. It may be my imagination, but the VB (a typical Z2 issue) in grey misty type scenes seems a little less pronounced. I haven't done a full calibration of the PJ w/DVI interface yet - waiting on my CC20R filter before I tweak it with SMART III.

The 1910 also plays some DVD's which were causing trouble for my other DVD player (Contact and Galaxy Quest on my JVC 7 disc DVD changer == not watchable).

Layer change was noticeable, but faster than my existing player. Frankly, coming from laser disc way back, slow layer changes don't bother me. Even the slowest DVD layer change is faster than getting up to flip the disc (especially after arguing about who's turn it is to get up.) :D

On the downside, physically the player seems cheap. The display is lame - I would have expected better from a Cdn$400 player. At least the loader has a smooth movement to it - seems fairly sturdy. It also makes more noise when playing discs than my existing player. Probably won't matter to most folks, but the DVD player is fairly close to the sitting area in my HT and I noticed it while watching.

Other things to note is that some of the default settings are not what I would have chosen as default (high black level - which someone else mentioned, and audio range compression is on by default).

The whole 4:3 thing doesn't bother me at all - I've got a 4:3 TV elsewhere for that. Even if I did want to watch a 4:3 aspect ratio flick, 480p is fine with my Z2 anyway. It would then be a matter of selecting the right mode when I put the disc in the player (ie: hit the DVI button a couple of times) - doesn't strike me as a big deal.

In summary:
Likes
- DVI PQ
- Compatibility with my DVD collection

DIslikes
- Price
- Appearance (esp for $$)
- Slightly noisy during playback

All in all, I like the player - but am wondering if it wouldn't be better to wait a little longer to see what else Samsung/Panasonic/Sony have in store - possibly same PQ for less $$.

Sean.

[LEVESQUE]

I own the LG7832 (Zenith clone) the Denon 1910 and the Denon 5900.

If you talk about the PQ only, the Zenith is NOT a giant-killer. The 1910 is a little bit better PQ wise IMHO then the Zenith, but it's not the 5900...

I'm talking about DVI upscaling here, not component...

[Patrick TX]

How would you rank them all over component?

[LEVESQUE]

Over component, the Zenith is the best of the 3, because only the Zenith can upscale through component.

But this is with the original firmware upgrade... Loosing upscaling through component for the Zenith with the new firmware upgrade will be a major hit on the Zenith popularity, IMHO...

[robertc88]

Wasn't overwhelmed with what I saw from both the Denon 2200 or the 910, especailly the former with MSRP of around 6 bills.

Perhaps I'll be able to get a look at the 1910 soon but unfortunately no Denon dealer close to me had one yesterday.

I'm one who will be running component 480p for many more moons as I'm not planning to buy another TV anytime soon! That said, I'm not sure any current players from player manufacturers are fairing very well versus the Denon 1600, Panny XP30, or XP50 and that ain't a good thing for joe consumer still in the same boat as me.

[Kenlex]

Originally posted by MEYJR
Also can someone explain to me why you would want to use 480 or 720 if 1080 is available. I am a newbie with this stuff and haven't figured all of this out yet.

Assuming you are using DVI and your TV is a digital set with fixed pixels (as opposed to a CRT which is driven by analog circuitry), the idea is to have the player scale to the "native mode" resolution of your TV, so that your TV doesn't have to do any re-scaling of the image. (Scaling once, from DVD resolution = goodness; scaling TWICE = potential PQ degredation).

For example, on my Sammy DLP TV, the display is 720x1280; therefore I would set a DVD player to scale to 720p over DVI.

If I had an EDTV plasma with DVI (does such a thing exist?), I'd set the player to 480p.

[PooperScooper]

If I had an EDTV plasma with DVI (does such a thing exist?), I'd set the player to 480p.

Yes, they exist. I believe some have HDMI inputs now too. If they accept HDTV resolutions, they need to be able to handle copy protection.

larry

[BillP]

Originally posted by Patrick TX
How is a $159 player TYING a $1300 FLAGSHIP player not simply amazing? People have been knocking the Zenith for MONTHS about component being disabled, but they just KEEP COMING. Make no mistake, it IS a giant killer. Ask the original giant killers that the Zenith took down (Panasonic RP82, XP's, DVD-1600).

Sorry Patrick, but you totally misquoted me. What I said was that the 1910 had a better PQ than the Zenith 318 via DVI, and they were tied via component. The 1910 is a $250 player, not a $1300 flagship. I have not seen any direct comparisons between the 318 and the 3910 (although I may have missed it due to the large number of new threads on these new players). I don't quite see how the fact that the 1910 (a $250 player) is better than the $170 Zenith makes the Zenith a giant killer.

[Patrick TX]

I was referring to Robert in the 3910 thread. The 318 via component is hanging with flagship players via component. The fact that a $159 player is doing this is amazing. Even Levesque says it comes out first between the 5900, 1910, and the 318. The 5900 is the NUMBER ONE PLAYER on secrets. It is the best of the best. Why not use it over component, saving the DVI or HDMI jack for something else. That's all I'm saying.

[LEVESQUE]

Originally posted by Patrick TX
Even Levesque says it comes out first between the 5900, 1910, and the 318.

It comes out first over component because it's the only one of the 3 that can upconvert through component... (w/o the new firmware version)...

Upscaling over DVI is a different story tough between those 3...

[kevinca1]

You can not compare a dvd player that does not do the same as another one, If they were only video wise and not all the other features you can but its like comparing a car that has wheels and one that didnt. the 5900 does so many things more as does the 3910 so its not a fair comaprison. also there is a bifg diffence in the scores at secrets between the \318 and 5900 only in video.

[Tyro]

LOVE That!!!
Race you to the patent office! :cool:

[millerwill]

So I take it that everyone agrees that over DVI, the Denon 1910 definitely gives better PQ than the Samsung 841? And we'll have to wait to see how the 1910 compares to the Sam 941?

[Mixdoctor]

Right now I more inclined to go for the Zenith. I can use either component or DVI. If I get a pre firmware upgrade, I'll use component. Hopefully when they disable the use of component, they will improve the DVI connection's picture.

It seems that there is no overwhelming need to go for the Denon. Most people are saying the picture is a little better or not at all depending on connection. I figured with the wait there should have been a real leap in PQ or at least features with the Denons which there isn't. Someone like me with the RP-82 that wants a clearly better DVD player, for not too much money, may not have that yet. Am I wrong here ?

[shanec]

Does anybody know if the HLP5663 can upscale the component inputs to 720p or 1080i? I vaugely recall this TV having Fardouja processing for this but I don't remember.

I'm trying to decide if 1910's lack of 720p & 1080i over component is an issue for me - assuming I go through with the 5663 I have on order.

[lynnbt]

Originally posted by shanec
Does anybody know if the HLP5663 can upscale the component inputs to 720p or 1080i? I vaugely recall this TV having Fardouja processing for this but I don't remember.

I'm trying to decide if 1910's lack of 720p & 1080i over component is an issue for me - assuming I go through with the 5663 I have on order.

Doesn't the HLP5663 have both DVI and HDMI inputs? If so, use the DVI for your cable/sat box, and use the HDMI for the 1910 (you just need to buy a DVI-to-HDMI cable for about $20). Then 720p over component is a non-issue.

[daumier]

Originally posted by tennberg
daumier:

Did you have a chance to watch those 16:9 480p DVDs over component to your XBR960 yet? I'm curious to know whether or not the picture jumped and flickered. If it did, I really don't know which DVD player I'd get. I am ready to exchange my 910 for the 1910, but not if it still causes 16:9 480p material over component to flicker like it does.

Tennberg - I did watch the Fifth Element - and I didn't notice any flickering at all (I couldn't find my copy of 'Finding Nemo').

In any event - I finally bought a DVI-HDMI cable - and I calibrated the TV using DVE. Let me tell you, the result is simply breathtaking! The TV now correctly detects the material as 16:9 - and I am using 720p resolution.

A word about DVE and the 1910 -- the neat thing about this DVD player is that you can fine tune the calibration by changing the brightness, contrast, etc. on the 1910 as well. I am simply amazed with the PQ -- and I would highly recommend this player.

hope this helps.

D

[tennberg]

daumier:

Thanks for the reply. I take it you were watching "The Fifth Element" over component in 16:9 480p? It's nice to hear you didn't have any flickering.

As for your TV now correctly detecting 16:9 material, do you think it was an issue with the cable? with the connection between the 1910 and XBR? I'm getting a 1910 and will be hooking it up to my 960 via component.

As for the brightness/contract settings on the 1910, that's kind of bad to hear. It just means the ISF guy who is calibrating my TV will need to fiddle around with more settings. However, since this guy is the head trainer for all ISF techs (Jim Doolittle, fyi), he should know what he's doing.

[kuzzy]

Originally posted by jigesh
With 8MB of buffer in 3910 (compared to 2MB in 1910), layer change shouldn't be noticeable.

Pardon the rant but put me on record that noticeable layer changes should have been ELIMINATED from ALL DVD players by now. I mean, come on, how much does that extra 6 MB of memory cost? Well I guess for Denon $299 just doesn't cover it. This is not a "feature" that should be limited to Denon's more expensive players.

Brian

[lovingdvd]

Just a quick side note of caution for those that are calibrating a DVI player's contrast and brightness controls... As you dial in the correct brightness/contrast for the player you may be throwing off the correct levels for another DVI source such as a STB. So if you are using two different DVI sources its probably best to set them both to the same black level (16-235 for example) and then calibrate the contrast/brightness using the display device itself. This way both sources are calibrated.

[lovingdvd]

OK, regarding the 4:3 issue with the 1910 and the "extra button pushes" that are required to display a 4:3 DVD properly over 720p... can someone tell me what the correct mode is for that? In other words, you are pushing the button on the 1910 to change between which to modes exactly? 720p and what (480p over DVI perhaps so that you can then set your display device not to stretch, since you don't have this ability with 720p)?

[HeaTransfer]

Originally posted by shanec
Does anybody know if the HLP5663 can upscale the component inputs to 720p or 1080i? I vaugely recall this TV having Fardouja processing for this but I don't remember.

I'm trying to decide if 1910's lack of 720p & 1080i over component is an issue for me - assuming I go through with the 5663 I have on order.

All DLP TV sets are 720p (native resolution). In fact they will only display 720p - all other signals (480i/p and 1080i) are converted to 720p by the set's electronics.

Use the DVI connection from the DVDP to your TV set and don't bother with the component connection. You will get better PQ using DVI rather than component (there are fewer image conversions).

[iblumberg]

Lovingdvd,

The 1910 has no aspect ratio controls or picture format controls. Thus, if you are playing a 4:3 disk into a 16:9 display device, you have to have the display pillar box the image. Some HD devices will do this in any resolution, others will only do it in 480 i/p mode. For those devices that lock into 16:9 with no picture format controls at resolutions above 480, you have to switch the Denon 1910 to 480p mode when viewing 4:3 material to allow the display device to add the pillar box.

If your display device allows picture format controls even at 720p or 1080i, then the above is not relevant to you and you can just set the Denon for 720p or 1080i and leave it there.

Ira

[Neumann]

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
I think the Denon 1910 and the Zenith 18 are going to be the kings of the under $500 group. Honestly. That's just my gut feeling on the matter.

I am very happy with the Zenith myself. Just act soon on it so you don't get shut out of component upconversion by the firmware or something...

Neither does sacd/dvd-a like the samsung 841,actually i have seen the 318 in action and don't think the pq is any better then the 841 so i would just as soon have the 841 with the sacd/dvd-a,I just feel that a player can't be a giant killer or king of the under 500$ players unless its a universal player,once you listen to dvd-a or sacd you know why

[GSOgymrat]

Originally posted by iblumberg
If your display device allows picture format controls even at 720p or 1080i, then the above is not relevant to you and you can just set the Denon for 720p or 1080i and leave it there.

Ira

Thanks, iblumberg, that was what I needed to know.

[RMSko]

Does anyone know if the 1910 allows for discrete codes and if so does anyone have any of the codes for a Pronto remote?

[lovingdvd]

Originally posted by iblumberg
Lovingdvd,

The 1910 has no aspect ratio controls or picture format controls. Thus, if you are playing a 4:3 disk into a 16:9 display device, you have to have the display pillar box the image. Some HD devices will do this in any resolution, others will only do it in 480 i/p mode. For those devices that lock into 16:9 with no picture format controls at resolutions above 480, you have to switch the Denon 1910 to 480p mode when viewing 4:3 material to allow the display device to add the pillar box.

If your display device allows picture format controls even at 720p or 1080i, then the above is not relevant to you and you can just set the Denon for 720p or 1080i and leave it there.

Ira

When my display is fed a 720p or 1080i image, I do not have the option to reside the picture. This option is present on 480p signals. So I see exactly what you mean.

Bottom line is that when watching 4:3 material you have to switch the 1910 to 480p so you can tell the display not to stretch. Correct?

I see this as an annoyance, but not a major one, because as it is I already have to walk up to the player to put in a DVD. If it was a devlice that did not require me to walk up to the unit in the first place, such as a STB, it would be a bigger deal. A bit of a pain I agree, but personally its not a deal breaker for me.

At this point I've replaced the loader in my Bravo D1 and its working well now. So this will buy me some time. At this point I'm waiting to read about comparisions in PQ between the D1 and 1910, as well as a professional indepth review, before proceeding with the 1910. Should my D1 craps out with the new loader than that will be a different story.

[lovingdvd]

Does anyone think that the 4:3 issue with the 1910 is something that can be corrected via a future firmware update, or is this something that typically needs to be done in the hardware? Just curious whether Denon has the flexibility to patch/resolve this issue with a firmware update should they realize the importance of this 4:3 issue to many buyers.

[MEYJR]

Does 480 display over DVI? Because with my 1910 I'm not getting any picture when I switch to 480 (or 720). I only get video at 1080. Do I need a different cable connected also or does my TV have something to do with it. In the manual of the tv (Mits. 65813) it says "your TV will display all High Definition signals as 1080i True HDTV and all standard definition signals will be displayed as 480p." So since the DVD is connected with DVI is the TV deciding that is a High Def signal and only displaying it in 1080? If so can I also connect a different cable for 480? I am wondering if I have the option to switching to 480 for 4:3 material.

Mike

[iblumberg]

Lovingdvd,

Yes, in your case, you need to switch the 1910 to 480p to see the picture in the correct format (as adjusted on your TV). You are correct that the mode switch is usually a fairly minor inconvenience. About the only issue was raised by another poster in that if you want to watch a 16:9 movie and then watch the "extras" that usually are 4:3, you do have to get up to switch modes. As I mentioned previously, for those folks who don't really need a DVI player now, it might be useful to wait 2 months to see what the competition brings.

MEYJR,

I have tested the DVI output at 480p, 720p, and 1080i and each works fine with my 720P native projector. In my case, I use 720p as this is the resolution that by passes the scaler in my projector. However, my 1910 sends a fine signal with any of these resolutions. You may want to investigate your TV a bit more.

Ira

[Kenlex]

Originally posted by iblumberg
About the only issue was raised by another poster in that if you want to watch a 16:9 movie and then watch the "extras" that usually are 4:3, you do have to get up to switch modes.

Will the 1910 output to SVideo simultaneously with DVI? If so, and if you can afford to "spend" another input on the TV, an alternate approach is to hook up the 1910 with SVideo in addition to DVD. You could then use the input selector on your TV to switch when watching a 16:9 movie's 4:3 extras without getting up.

If the 1910 disables SVideo and composite output when the DVI is active... those of us who have this issue would be out of luck!

[scsiraid]

Page 15 of the manual on the Denon website says no component output with DVI enabled.

[Kenlex]

Originally posted by scsiraid
Page 15 of the manual on the Denon website says no component output with DVI enabled.

Right. But how about composite or SVideo?

[mallu2u]

Originally posted by daumier
mallu2u - there is - and I did set the DVD player to 16:9 widescreen (the other options are 4:3 letterbox and 4:3 pan and scan). However, the TV still detects the material as 4:3. I have to set the screen setting on the TV to 'Full' in order to see the material properly in 16:9. I'm wondering now whether this is an isolated case w/ my player -- anyone else have this problem with the Sonys?


I would be surprised if this issue of this player and not your setup since even my 5-yr old panny does not have this issue with my 60" xbr.

[mallu2u]

Reading all the abt the player...I think there is no need to pre-order...shall wait for it to hit the stores and then check it out. so far I have not read any major issues with the player...irritables (like 4:3) but not issues. I hope we can keep the thread to reviews and issues...

[EVT]

Hey guys,

After spending a few more hours with the 1910 I decided to return it and wait and see what the Panasonci S97 and possibly even the Denon 2910 will be like.

After repeated attemtps I was not able to get 480p working properly over DVI, I would consistently get video dropouts. Sometimes these video dropouts were as long as 10 minutes apart. I have a Toshiba 57HDX82. If anyone else has an HDX82 Toshiba and this player can you let me know if you are experiencing the same issue.

I am hesitant to believe it is a problem with the TV as my LG7832 works fine in 480p over DVI as did the Samsung HD931 that I previously owned. I tried this unit on my buddy's HX83 and it worked fine at 480p so it's not a defective unit per se but possibly the firmware on the Denon needs updating to be compatible with the Tosh HDX82 series.

[Mikey_C]

Originally posted by EVT
After repeated attemtps I was not able to get 480p working properly over DVI

Pardon my ignorance, but why would you want to do 480p? Isn't the whole purpose of having an DVI-enabled dvd player (Denon 1919, Zenith 318, Momitsu) to watch stuff in 1080i?

[Kenlex]

Originally posted by Mikey_C
Pardon my ignorance, but why would you want to do 480p? Isn't the whole purpose of having an DVI-enabled dvd player (Denon 1919, Zenith 318, Momitsu) to watch stuff in 1080i?

For the most part, assuming the player does a good job of upconverting (and I would expect that using the Faroudja chip is a "good job"), you want the signal the player passes over the DVI to be in the "native" resolution of your display, to avoid further processing. For a DLP set and most plasmas, that's 720p. If you have an Extended Definition plasma, that's 480p.

"Watching stuff in 1080i" only makes sense if 1080 lines is the native resolution of your display. Otherwise your TV is taking the 1080i signal (upconverted by the player from 480) and downconverting it to the display's resolution.

The theory is that the player has all the original bits of the image and is in the best position to convert it to the desired target resolution.

[Beaker1024]

Kenlex,

I agree completely and stuck with that line of thought for a while.

But I have an example of when matching your native resolution for 1:1 mapping might not be the way to go.

I have a Panny PT50LC13, which is 720p native.... So I only tried 720p over DVI and Component from the 318 but the color bleeding at 720p (noticable on the DVD background screen when no disc along with some material) finally made me try the 1080i setting over component to my 720p native TV.

It had dawned on my that the Local network HD channels in 1080i were passed to my TV as 1080i and look superb so why not try it with the 318 if it has less "buggs" / issues at that resolution. Well I won't say it's a big difference but it certianly is not any worse at 1080i rather than 720p and I know that I won't see any (or atleast less) PQ buggs at 1080i. Even if both resolutions from the player were equal (as far as bugs/etc..) I would still say that I would be very hard pressed to say one HD resolution looks that much better than the other. With different TVs YMMV.

[Keyser Sose]

After repeated attemtps I was not able to get 480p working properly over DVI


My DVD-1910 is flawless in all resolutions (DVI to HDMI) fed into my Mits WD62525.

[mallu2u]

Originally posted by EVT
Hey guys,

After spending a few more hours with the 1910 I decided to return it and wait and see what the Panasonci S97 and possibly even the Denon 2910 will be like.

After repeated attemtps I was not able to get 480p working properly over DVI, I would consistently get video dropouts. Sometimes these video dropouts were as long as 10 minutes apart. I have a Toshiba 57HDX82. If anyone else has an HDX82 Toshiba and this player can you let me know if you are experiencing the same issue.

I am hesitant to believe it is a problem with the TV as my LG7832 works fine in 480p over DVI as did the Samsung HD931 that I previously owned. I tried this unit on my buddy's HX83 and it worked fine at 480p so it's not a defective unit per se but possibly the firmware on the Denon needs updating to be compatible with the Tosh HDX82 series.

Were you using the same DVI cable? Maybe that was the issue since nobody else reported the issue

[EVT]

Yes I was using the same DVI cable. I also used the same DVI cable on my buddy's Toshiba HX83 and had no problem getting 480p on his to work.

[Neo57]

I dont know if this has been asked already, its kinda hard to try and read 11 pages of posts, so if it has I apologize.

I have a Sony GWIII, and I know the native res is different than most tv's. has anyone tried the 1910 with a GWIII, and if so, what are the impressions. Is it worth the purchase for a GWIII. Thanks everyone...

[RockStrongo]

Any audio synch issues with the 1910 and DTS soundtracks?

My Sammy HD931 handles DTS terribly.

[mallu2u]

For anyone who has owned Denons in the past-
- Does Denon come up with firmware upgrades to fix known issues?
- How abt experience with making denons region-free.

[eweiss]

Originally posted by Keyser Sose
My DVD-1910 is flawless in all resolutions (DVI to HDMI) fed into my Mits WD62525.

What have you determined re: 4:3 material? Does it lock it into stretched mode, or can you watch 4:3 as 4:3 through the DVI output?

[slacker9876]

Despite what I have read here I am picking up a 1910 tonight (in about an hour). I'll also review it and see what I think, passing it on to everyone. I will be using it with COAX audio and Component Video to my 16:9 Sammy.

[krajyk]

Very newbie question. Since upconvert through component does not work on this player, how will testing the dvd through component be any different than running the setup with a very good progressive scan dvd player?

[Keyser Sose]

What have you determined re: 4:3 material? Does it lock it into stretched mode, or can you watch 4:3 as 4:3 through the DVI output?

Yes, in the 480P mode.

[muncey]

just picked up mine at good guys in orange, ca. they had 4 of them. sitting here looking at it at work, can't wait to get home tonight to try it out.

muncey

[keenan]

Originally posted by krajyk
Very newbie question. Since upconvert through component does not work on this player, how will testing the dvd through component be any different than running the setup with a very good progressive scan dvd player?

Don't understand your question. You can feed the display with 480i and have the display de-interlace if it's capable, or feed the display with 480p and have the player do the work. You should check to see which way gives the better picture. If you're talking about comparing progressive scan output between players, there are all sorts of ways and means that different players do it and they will provide different results depending on the quality of the process and the hardware used to do it.

Jim

[umr]

Meyjr,

Problems people are seeing with different resolutions over DVI can be the TV or the player. It may not be the cable. Some TV's do not support all resolutions over DVI. That is the reason SA includes a setup screen on the 8000HD to test your display. With this the device knows how to best deliver the source once you select how it should handle the different formats. It is a shame none of the current up-converting players take a similar approach.

LG also had problems with their initial release of the LST-3410A handling 480i/p over DVI. Later firmware on the LG fixed this issue.

Whether any up-converting player is the giant killer of players is as much a function of the player as the display device. Factors on the display device include analog conversion of DVI inputs, scaler quality and display resolution. Many display devices are not native 720p or 1080i and may perform best with a high quality analog and/or DVI 480p/i input.

[slacker9876]

Originally posted by slacker9876
[B]Despite what I have read here I am picking up a 1910 tonight (in about an hour). I'll also review it and see what I think, passing it on to everyone. I will be using it with COAX audio and Component Video to my 16:9 Sammy.
Well .. that's a shitter. It doesn't do component I give the player a triple F- and I am on my way back to the store. The question is should I buy a new TV or is there a player out there that works for this? What is the point ... most TV's did not have DVI ... until like 20 months ago.

[Noah]

Originally posted by slacker9876
Well .. that's a shitter. It doesn't do component I give the player a triple F- and I am on my way back to the store. The question is should I buy a new TV or is there a player out there that works for this? What is the point ... most TV's did not have DVI ... until like 20 months ago. It does component, it just doesn't upscale over component.

[dave69]

Picked one up at the Good Guys in Marina del Rey (Calif.) earlier, it was the only one they had (they don't even have a display unit yet).

Hooked it up DVI 720p to the Sony GWII 60xbr800. Coming from a Bravo D1, it was certainly a treat to put a disc in and actually have it read the first time!

For the money, this seems to me to be a decent player. Some say "it lacks in the build"... well, you can always do what some of the stereo manufacturers did in the 70's and add a lead weight inside the cabinet... that'll give you an extra 20 pounds to make it seem like there's more than there is.

The only quirk, of course, is the stretch to wide of 4:3 material at 720p (which the Bravo did not do). So, until I can afford a better player, I'll just keep my RP91 for 4:3 stuff. Or push the little button and scroll to 480p.

Oh yeah, and that bright orange DVI led... that gets covered with a small piece of tape.

As for PQ, I'll have to wait til evening as on the LCD, everything looks good with the room bathed in outside light. If it sucks, I'll bitch about it. If I don't, then the PQ will be marginally to magically better than the D1.

Dave

BTW... an interesting D1 quirk... it thinks the South Park "Passion of the ... " is an ISO9660 disc.

[krajyk]

Originally posted by slacker9876
Well .. that's a shitter. It doesn't do component I give the player a triple F- and I am on my way back to the store. The question is should I buy a new TV or is there a player out there that works for this? What is the point ... most TV's did not have DVI ... until like 20 months ago.

The player "does component" but does not upscale over component. My question was, if it doesn't upscale over component, whats the point of spending that much money if another progressive scan dvd player can give you similar PQ without upscale?

I'm about to buy one tonight but I only have one DVI input and I have two potential DVI sources (HD Satellite, DVD Player). I'm going to buy a short Monster component cable and compare the HD Sat. PQ from the component and DVI. If the difference is marginal, then I'll switch the HD Sat. to component and hook up the Denon to DVI. If the difference is great, I might as well get the Zenith 318 to allow upscale over component. I don't want to go this route because of all of the green saturation problems in the Zenith but I'd rather sacrafice my DVD PQ then my HD Sat. PQ.

[PATRICKB]

Need some advice. I saw the 1910 at Magnolia Hi-fi in Palo Alto yesterday, and I am thinking of buying it.

Compared to my Denon DVD-1710 at 480p over component, will the 1910 over DVI provide a noticeable difference in PQ? Also, Magnolia Hi-fi told me that the DVD-2910 will be available in two weeks. Should I wait for that instead? BTW, I have a Sharp LC-37G4U and no need for a universal player.

[BillP]

You should definitely get better PQ with the 1910 over DVI than the 1710. No need to go with the 2910 unless you are interested in high res audio (SACD and DVD-A).

[b.greenway]

"If the player is set to 1080i or 720p, 4x3 material is displayed stretched on my Toshiba 57HDX82"

I cant say for sure what your seeing, but I hit resize to 4:3 on my projector and to my eyes I saw a perfect 4:3 pillarboxed image. and I'm using it in 720p

Unlesss im hallucinating, this problem doesnt exist with my infocus proj and DVD 1910.

[cguajardo]

has anyone had a chance to play burned dvds yet with this player?

[jwv651]

Originally posted by cguajardo
has anyone had a chance to play burned dvds yet with this player?

Good question...as I back up my favorite DVD,s on DVD+R's with Xcopy Xpress.

[Whttkrasst]

Picked up the 1910 yesterday. It's replacing a Momitsu v880, which replaced a Bravo D1.

D1 was unresponsive to remote, flaky loader, etc, but very sharp PQ. Momitsu was "more" trouble free, but the PQ was softer, and I got white crush on DVI with it.

The 1910 has a fantastic picture, the best of the three, and is super-responsive to the remote. Not super-fast, but very responsive, if that's clear.

So, with the exception of the 4:3 issue, which really is dumb and inconvenient, this player's a keeper, as far as I'm concerned. I'd recommend it to anyone with a D1 or v880 as a step in the right direction.

[eweiss]

Originally posted by Keyser Sose
Yes, in the 480P mode.

I'm not clear what you're saying "Yes" to in response to my question.

If I get this DVD player and hook it up via DVI to my TV, when I play a 4:3 DVD, will I be able to display it as 4:3? Are you saying that the answer is "Yes," but only if I output it as 480p - but if I output it as 480i, it will be displayed as 16:9 stretched?

[mallu2u]

Originally posted by slacker9876
Well .. that's a shitter. It doesn't do component I give the player a triple F- and I am on my way back to the store. The question is should I buy a new TV or is there a player out there that works for this? What is the point ... most TV's did not have DVI ... until like 20 months ago.
did u mean component upconversion?

[mallu2u]

Originally posted by Whttkrasst
Picked up the 1910 yesterday. It's replacing a Momitsu v880, which replaced a Bravo D1.

D1 was unresponsive to remote, flaky loader, etc, but very sharp PQ. Momitsu was "more" trouble free, but the PQ was softer, and I got white crush on DVI with it.

The 1910 has a fantastic picture, the best of the three, and is super-responsive to the remote. Not super-fast, but very responsive, if that's clear.

So, with the exception of the 4:3 issue, which really is dumb and inconvenient, this player's a keeper, as far as I'm concerned. I'd recommend it to anyone with a D1 or v880 as a step in the right direction.

First person to compare Momitsu with Denon. Hoping more shall follow. I'd like to see a detailed review comparing the two in terms of build, controls, PQ, upconversion, etc.

[mallu2u]

If anyone is not using ur Tweeter discount coupon, let me know. I shall put it to a good use :)

[lovingdvd]

Originally posted by mallu2u
If anyone is not using ur Tweeter discount coupon, let me know. I shall put it to a good use :)

I'm on their mailing list - haven't seen any kind of coupon come by. Can you elaborate on how much of a discount the coupon is for and how it is being circulated?

[lovingdvd]

Originally posted by Whttkrasst
Picked up the 1910 yesterday. It's replacing a Momitsu v880, which replaced a Bravo D1.

D1 was unresponsive to remote, flaky loader, etc, but very sharp PQ. Momitsu was "more" trouble free, but the PQ was softer, and I got white crush on DVI with it.

The 1910 has a fantastic picture, the best of the three, and is super-responsive to the remote. Not super-fast, but very responsive, if that's clear.

So, with the exception of the 4:3 issue, which really is dumb and inconvenient, this player's a keeper, as far as I'm concerned. I'd recommend it to anyone with a D1 or v880 as a step in the right direction.

Hi Whttkrasst - welcome to the forums!

I have a D1 and can't wait to replace it. Its driven me nuts for a long time due to all its quirks. Recently the loader went bad and I had to replace the loader with a new one. That's holding me for now, but I'm very interested in direct comparisions as far as PQ with the D1. Can you please elaborate? I'm surprised to hear the PQ is noticably better than the D1. I would think at best it would be very difficult to notice a difference. Thanks!

[baum13]

I just picked up my 1910 tonight locally. $239. So far this player exceeds my expectations as far as PQ. I have one question, in the main DVD setup menu does the white text have some greenish blue tint to some of the letters or is it just me. While watching a movie and hitting display the "time" text shows just fine and these artifacts don't appear during play just on the menu text. I've got another DVI cable on order so for now I'm only using Component Video. Although I notice it through S-Video as well. FYI...I'm connected to a PRO-630HD (pioneer elite RP)
Jeff

[krajyk]

I just got my 1910 today. I can't seem to get any picture with the DVI connection. I tried two different DVDs and two different DVI cables and nothing is coming on. I can hear the sound but the picture is black. When I connect via component, the picture is there. Does anyone know what is wrong? I'm running through GWIII 42we610 so I don't think I'm running into any HDCP issues.

BTW, the picture over component sux. I'm hoping its a lot better once I get DVI working.

[scsiraid]

krajyk,

Is your display HDCP compliant? If not... DVI isnt going to work. I trust that you did enable DVI on the 1910 (which shuts off component).

[scsiraid]

eweiss...

You cant send 480i over DVI..... only HDMI is spec'd for 480i.

[DooDoo]

i believe you have to set dvi output in the menus before it will work

[millerwill]

Question re the 4x3 business: my Sam hlp has, in DVI mode, a 'TV wide' setting and a '4x3 with sidebars' setting. If the 1910 sends a stretched 4x3 image to the TV, shouldn't a simple change of the dlp setting to '4x3' do the job of displaying a correct 4x3 picture?

[b.greenway]

DVI is actually slected from the front panel DVI button, you can scroll through 480p, 720p and 1081.

[auksmart]

millerwill, yep, that should do the trick with your hlp, just as long as you feed it a 480p signal for your 4:3 mode to work. My hln has the same setting, will be picking a 1910 up soon to confirm the samsung does what it's supposed to.

[millerwill]

auksmart: Thanks for the reply! I was thinking that one could leave the 1910 always set on 720p (or 1080i), and switch the hlp's mode to '4x3' to contract it back to an un-stretched picture.

I very much look forward to hearing how all this works out with your hln and the 1910.

[nathan_h]

Originally posted by Whttkrasst
Momitsu was "more" trouble free, but the PQ was softer, and I got white crush on DVI with it.

As a current 880 owner who is thinking of upgrading, I want to make sure I understand the comparision you are speaking about:

Your old 880 had a softer picture than your new 1910? What sort of display, connection, and resolution was this visible on?

[Whttkrasst]

Here's my extended take on the D1 and Momitsu. The PQ was fantastic. I was super-impressed with the $$/PQ ratio - plus a great story of the little guys taking on the majors made me want to support the company.

I have a NEC HT1000 and connect via DVI.

I got sparklies at 480p - I use a blue jeans cables DVI cable - never had a problem with any other player. I ran it at 1080i with no sparklies. The sharpness of the image was great, but the remote and loader issues with the player kept me constantly frustrated, to the point of giving up after nine months of reprogramming my Harmony remote to try to get responsiveness from the D1.

So, I replaced it with the Momitsu. I've never been as happy with the Mom's PQ. It's just softer, and I lose detail in white areas of the picture, regardless of the settings, calibration, etc. Honestly, I've been running at 480P, as 720P crops on my PJ and the 1080i setting is much less sharp than the 480P on my particular setup. So, it's been a good 480p DVI player, but that's all. To me, the D1 simply had a better picture. Remote was more responsive, so I've just been holding out for the next new player, preferably from a major, to replace the Mom.

The Denon is better. It's running at 1080i on DVI. Picture is very sharp, very clear, not blurry, panning is smoother, etc. Just a better picture, with more depth and detail. It's honestly been so long since I've had the D1, I can't do a really detailed comparison, other than to say, this picture is excellent, is at least as good, probably better, and is produced by a player that responds to the remote and loads discs properly.

The 1910 is small, taller than the other two, and not as deep from front to back. It weighs, I believe, less than the packaging it came in. I thought maybe the box was empty when the sales rep handed it to me. So, I'm sure folks will complain about build quality. I didn't examine it VERY closely, as it sits in my rack and I'm mostly concerned about how it works, not how heavy it is. The Mom's faceplate didn't line up right, and the loaders on both the D1 and Mom were "sloppier" and louder, but that's about all I've really paid attention to. I recognize that this is a $250 player, and it's not going to be built like a BMW. It's a Honda Civic - no offense meant, it's just a lower-end player.

So, I'm fine for now, and will replace the 1910 with the next generation player ONLY IF the 4:3 thing begins to be a real nuisance. Otherwise, I feel like I finally have a great $200+ DVI-based player, that, assuming all holds up, works as designed, and delivers real DVI PQ.

[nel5150]

Originally posted by millerwill
auksmart: Thanks for the reply! I was thinking that one could leave the 1910 always set on 720p (or 1080i), and switch the hlp's mode to '4x3' to contract it back to an un-stretched picture.

I very much look forward to hearing how all this works out with your hln and the 1910.

millerwill,

You are correct. You should be able to leave the 1910 at 720p and let the TV do the pillarboxing (hln-W1 or hlp that is).

[krajyk]

Originally posted by krajyk
I just got my 1910 today. I can't seem to get any picture with the DVI connection. I tried two different DVDs and two different DVI cables and nothing is coming on. I can hear the sound but the picture is black. When I connect via component, the picture is there. Does anyone know what is wrong? I'm running through GWIII 42we610 so I don't think I'm running into any HDCP issues.

BTW, the picture over component sux. I'm hoping its a lot better once I get DVI working.

I kept on pressing the DVI button and finally it worked. I'm not sure what went wrong the first couple of times I was trying.

Overall impression:
Since this is my first upconverting DVD player, I don't have much to compare with. But comparing with my previous progressive scan player, the difference is defintely there but nothing where my jaw is droping similar to how I felt when I first saw my HD Sat. picture on my GWIII. I really wish I could get the Zenith 318 to compare the PQ because if the difference isn't much, I wouldn't mind just going for the cheaper one.

I think everyone's complaints are right on the money. The box looks very cheaply designed. Yes you can't expect much from a sub 300 dvd player but there are a lot other sub 300's that look way better than this. Also, the machine does make a lot of noise as noted earlier by others.

Does anyone know where I can get a 318 at a B&M so that I can easily return it? I live in SF Bay Area.

[mallu2u]

Best Buy online but for a much higher price...online is very cheap for the 318

[Whttkrasst]

East Bay Best Buys have the Zeniths in stock - retail, though, like $250.

[krajyk]

I just found a place near my house. They charge $200 plus 20% restocking fee. What a rip when you can get it for 160 online. Maybe this is too much of a hassle and I'll just end up sticking with the 1910. One thing I haven't done is calibrate with DVE so maybe that will improve the PQ further.

[auksmart]

Looks like its only the hln-w that requires 480p for 4:3, as the manual specifically states you have to feed the Samsung 480p to use the normal 4:3 mode. Not sure about the hln-w1. According to the HLP manual though, nel5150 is right, you can use 4:3 at 720p. Best way to check though is plugging it in :) Always too much speculation in these threads.

[Reagan]

Quick question for those who have the 1910 and have tried both the component and DVI connections:

Is the picture over DVI darker than over component? It's happened to me before and I just want to check.

Thanks,
Reagan

[Dream1]

Newbie question?

Will I be Ok with DVI-I cable to the Z2 from the 1910?

Mine is waiting at a local retailer ($225), and I truly do not want to get suckered into a new Cable. Will a DVI-I suffice? Or will I need a DVI-D cable.

Will I need an adapter?

I-D I-D I-D all DVI, all works ______AHHHHHHHH----Help.

Ha..

Z2 is DVI-I
1910 DV-D

What do I do?

[lovingdvd]

Originally posted by Whttkrasst
I have a NEC HT1000 and connect via DVI.

The Denon is better. It's running at 1080i on DVI.

Just out of curiosity did you try it at 720p? Considerng that is closer to the native display resolution of the HT1000 I was wondering if that would result in even a sharper picture.

[jazzcat]

Originally posted by Dream1
Newbie question?

Will I be Ok with DVI-I cable to the Z2 from the 1910?

Mine is waiting at a local retailer ($225), and I truly do not want to get suckered into a new Cable. Will a DVI-I suffice? Or will I need a DVI-D cable.

Will I need an adapter?

I-D I-D I-D all DVI, all works ______AHHHHHHHH----Help.

Ha..

Z2 is DVI-I
1910 DV-D

What do I do?

Here is a link that will explain the difference. I honestly don't know if you can mix a DVI-I and DVI-D.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/dvi/index.htm

[Whttkrasst]

|Just out of curiosity did you try it at 720p? Considerng that is closer to the native display resolution of the HT1000 I was wondering if that would result in even a sharper picture.|

I have only used the 1910 for a couple of hours, so no, I haven't tried 720p. I'm not sure if it's my setup or what (I have an anamorphic lens on the HT1000), but on the Mom and the D1, the bottom of the picture was cropped about 2 inches on my screen, on both 720p and custom 768 resolution. So, I just gave up trying to pixel match, since 480 and 1080 both size perfectly. If I really tried, I could probably get there.

Does "being closer" to native res really help? Seems like if it's not at native res, it's not at native res. The PJ will still have to scale the image, whether it's coming at 720 or 1080, right? I don't really understand this technology well enough to distinguish between 720p to 768 scaling versus 1080i to 768 scaling. Sorry, that's the best info I can provide - I just don't know.

I just know I'm satisfied with 1080i and don't have to mess with sizing problems. Looks really good.

[Dream1]

Here is a link that will explain the difference. I honestly don't know if you can mix a DVI-I and DVI-D.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/dvi/index.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you.

I think I got it. Maybe.

[ahro]

Originally posted by Dream1
Newbie question?

Will I be Ok with DVI-I cable to the Z2 from the 1910?

Mine is waiting at a local retailer ($225), and I truly do not want to get suckered into a new Cable. Will a DVI-I suffice? Or will I need a DVI-D cable.

Will I need an adapter?

I-D I-D I-D all DVI, all works ______AHHHHHHHH----Help.

Ha..

Z2 is DVI-I
1910 DV-D

What do I do?

I believe if you have a DVI-I cable you can't use it with a DVI-D port, but you can use a DVI-D cable with a DVI-I port. Why the heck can't they standardize these things already

[krajyk]

Originally posted by ahro
I believe if you have a DVI-I cable you can't use it with a DVI-D port, but you can use a DVI-D cable with a DVI-I port. Why the heck can't they standardize these things already

HDMI

[krajyk]

Originally posted by Whttkrasst
|Just out of curiosity did you try it at 720p? Considerng that is closer to the native display resolution of the HT1000 I was wondering if that would result in even a sharper picture.|

I have only used the 1910 for a couple of hours, so no, I haven't tried 720p. I'm not sure if it's my setup or what (I have an anamorphic lens on the HT1000), but on the Mom and the D1, the bottom of the picture was cropped about 2 inches on my screen, on both 720p and custom 768 resolution. So, I just gave up trying to pixel match, since 480 and 1080 both size perfectly. If I really tried, I could probably get there.

Does "being closer" to native res really help? Seems like if it's not at native res, it's not at native res. The PJ will still have to scale the image, whether it's coming at 720 or 1080, right? I don't really understand this technology well enough to distinguish between 720p to 768 scaling versus 1080i to 768 scaling. Sorry, that's the best info I can provide - I just don't know.

I just know I'm satisfied with 1080i and don't have to mess with sizing problems. Looks really good.

I have a GWIII with 760ish res and I don't see much different from 720 or 1080. So antedotally, I would say no. Maybe a guru will tell me otherwise.

[nathan_h]

Originally posted by Whttkrasst
So, I replaced it with the Momitsu. I've never been as happy with the Mom's PQ. It's just softer, and I lose detail in white areas of the picture, regardless of the settings, calibration, etc. Honestly, I've been running at 480P, as 720P crops on my PJ and the 1080i setting is much less sharp than the 480P on my particular setup. So, it's been a good 480p DVI player, but that's all. To me, the D1 simply had a better picture. Remote was more responsive, so I've just been holding out for the next new player, preferably from a major, to replace the Mom.

What sort of projector? On a Z2, the 880's 720p gives the clearest picture, with essentially zero cropping, and lots of headroom in the whites.

I'm looking for a reason to replace my 880, but now that I have replaced the loader, the last issue that I was having appears to be taken care of, so I'm not sure that the 1910 would be an upgrade for me (especially since I'll still need the 880 for PAL, non-region-1, Divx, DVD+R, etc.).

[Whttkrasst]

Originally posted by nathan_h
What sort of projector? On a Z2, the 880's 720p gives the clearest picture, with essentially zero cropping, and lots of headroom in the whites.

I'm looking for a reason to replace my 880, but now that I have replaced the loader, the last issue that I was having appears to be taken care of, so I'm not sure that the 1910 would be an upgrade for me (especially since I'll still need the 880 for PAL, non-region-1, Divx, DVD+R, etc.).

It's a NEC HT1000 with anamorphic lens. The v880's 480p picture was good, but not fantastic. I had much more detail in whites with the D1 and now with the 1910. I may be in the minority, or may just be my setup, but to me, the D1 and 1910 are markedly sharper than the v880.

As for the cropping, I don't know why, but it's there. Bugs me to have 2 inches of dead space at the screen's bottom edge.

I don't know what the story is yet - not technically savvy enough - on the other format-issues you listed.

I would say that if you're very satsified with the v880, and know you have these other format issues needs, you're probably fine staying with it. I just couldn't get happy with the PQ on my setup.

[mallu2u]

any region-free hack for 1910? Perhaps one can try one of the older denon players' hack and see if it works...am curious

[jonskiv]

Just wanted to verify that the player does not play VCD and SVCD. I haven't tried playing a VCD personally, since the manual says that inserting such discs could damage the player. Any truth to this?

-jon

[mallu2u]

cannot believe a vcd shall spoil the player...seems crap to me. PQ should not be as good since its VCD...thats all I can think of..

[krajyk]

Originally posted by mallu2u
any region-free hack for 1910? Perhaps one can try one of the older denon players' hack and see if it works...am curious

Any volunteers to potentially mess up your player? :D

[krajyk]

Originally posted by mallu2u
cannot believe a vcd shall spoil the player...seems crap to me. PQ should not be as good since its VCD...thats all I can think of..

I agree. You would think that if a VCD would ruin the player, they would create a mechanism to prevent that.

[keenan]

Originally posted by krajyk
I agree. You would think that if a VCD would ruin the player, they would create a mechanism to prevent that.

The "mechanism" is built-in, yours eyes and your brain. :D

Jim

[edfowler]

I'm looking for a sharper picture on my Z2 than what my v880 is giving me too. It seems that the Z2 screensaver is sharp as a tack but I can never seem to focus in the picture from the Momitsu. BTW, are the 2910 or 3910 going to have the same PQ as the 1910 with enhanced audio, or are they going to have much better PQ as well?