Resolution on Belkin 7230 wireless router firmware bug: I got a refund

[jlv]

After trying to work with Belkin for 3 months to get a resolution to the packet loss bug in the v4.xx.xx firmware ("doesn't work for streaming"), I have given up. I finally demanded and received a full refund for the purchase price of my two v1444 units.

I only did this after they insisted there is no packet loss problem, and that I'm the only customer whose ever reported this problem, and that they can't reproduce it. They won't look at packet traces I've generated, nor will they show me packet traces proving that there is no packet loss. All they will say is that they have no bandwidth problems in their tests (between Windows machines).

If you have v144x Belkin hardware, and you are suffering from rotten streaming performance with your ReplayTV, you should call Belkin tech support and report the problem. If they won't fix it, tell them you want to return the malfunctioning unit.


That said, I'm in the market for *workling* wireless bridging solution, either 54g or "125g".

I'm currently using a v1111tt and a v1112 Belkin running 3.xx firmware, but the v1112 box doesn't power up correctly. I'd like to replace these with something that just works.

I'm considering a pair of Buffalo WBR2-G54's (or G54S's). But, perhaps I should get something that can run Sveasoft's firmware, so that I can have WPA over WDS.


FWIW, Belkin told me to discard the v1444 units. They don't want them back. I'm also looking for suggestions on creative ways to do this. ;) Anything from using them to test/support 3rd party firmware development, to having them run over by a bulldozer will be considered.

[sfhub]

That's what I figured. The only chance to get anything fixed is to get
through to Broadcom. Belkin is pretty powerless to do anything other
than report bugs, and they aren't even very good at doing that. On
a positive note, it seems Broadcom did fix the problems as the SVEA
stuff is reportedly using a newer wl.o that does not exhibit the same
problems. Who knows if that will filter down to Belkin v14xx units.

It's still good as a windows-only bridge so it isn't totally worthless.

[bsquarewi]

Don't suppose you have a support case ID so anyone who runs into something can reference it without having to jump through all the same hoops?

You have me worried now... I just bought a F5D7130 wireless access point last night to stream between my upstairs 5500 and my downstairs 5000 that is hooked up to a Belkin F5D7230 router. How did you determine you have packet loss?

[j.m.]

Sveasoft Alchemy will reportedly now run on the WBR-G54. It will not run on the WBR2-G54 because it uses a flash chip that isn't supported by their Linux kernel at the moment. This could change.

Previously, Sveasoft indicated he had given up on getting the firmware to run on the Belkins, largely due to their lack of response to inquiries about more complete source code. However, another guy has subsequently figured out how to run OpenWRT (another 3rd party firmware) on the F5D7230-4 by slightly changing the format of the firmware file to match a few peculiarities the Belkin expects (kinda like MPEG-2 vs. RTVConvert'ed MPEG-2). Details are here (http://www.midnightcode.org/papers/OpenWRT%20on%20the%20Belkin%20F5D7230-4.pdf). This guy is now a member of the Sveasoft development team, so I would expect to see a Belkin-compatible release in the future.

[jlv]

I do have a ticket number... but you will be far better off not referencing me. I was no longer a really happy customer after the first 10-15 hours on the phone with them and after the first couple times I was lied to.


You will notice packet loss as this: You will stream between two RTV's (or between a RTV and DVArchvie) and only get a transfer rate of about 250-275KBps (you will get "poor streaming performance", as is oft mentioned here). You'll get stutters and occasional drop outs if you use 'standard' quality. If you use medium or high quality, you won't be able to watch it. If you do the same test between two XP or FreeBSD systems running DVArchvie, you will get 1400KBps or more and won't have a problem.

You can only see the packet drops if you run a packet trace (tcpdump, windump, ethereal). XP and FreeBSD contain TCP algorithms that will quicky recover from the packet drops. The ReplayTV, based upon an old VxWorks kernel, has a TCP that lacks these features and causes a 1/2s stall every time a packet is dropped.

You will only see this in the 4.xx firmware. If your 7230 is v14xx, then this is all the firmware it can run. I'm pretty sure this same bug exists in the 4.xx firmware for the 7130 and the 7231, but this is just a hunch.

Why'd you buy a 7130 AP, btw? The 7230 is a superset of that device, and typically costs less.


j.m.: I hadn't heard that he joined Sveasoft. That's interesting. I've been following what he was doing since he first posted this: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10837191~mode=flat~start=15

There's also this recently announced work by Rick Bronson on getting a serial port on the 7230 and building Linksys's wRT54g source for the Belkin: http://www.efn.org/~rick/work/f5d7230/


sfhub: you are right, especially since Broadcomm doesn't make a public release of the source to wl.o. But, just a kernel relinked with a newer wl.o, with the rest of the user land from Belkin's firmware should be enough to fix the packet loss problem, *if* it's just something in the wl.o driver.


I'm encouraged by the fact that in the last week the pace of 3rd party work has picked up. It actually took Belkin 3 weeks just to get me my refund; I had asked for it before any of this recent work was announced.


My overall point is: don't let Belkin take your money and give you a broken product. If it doesn't work for you, open a support request and let them know.

(They have told me over and over again that I am the only person who has ever reported this probelm. Given the number of people here and on other boards with RTVs who have this issue, I find that surprising)

[Gothman]

jlv put the damn thing on fleabay. The buffalos have been around $10 after rebates. I can't beleave you still have your v14xx. After belkin told me you could just make up the packet loss theory, and there was no problem, I returned all 3 of mine to J&R. Belkin wouldn't take them back. I talked to the same escalated tech dude you did. Of course they lied and said I was the first to report this, then he said he just spoke with you about the same thing.

[tomho]

I understand that there's a new version v2000. Has anybody had any success with those? :confused:

[freealta]

I reported in another thread a couple of weeks ago that I bought 2 v1444 fw 4.03.03 routers. Bridged them out of box and had no problems watching high quality shows streaming from DVA to RTV5040. PC room to bedroom RTV is about 30 feet. But I couldn't watch even standard quality shows streaming from RTV to VLC.
With the current sale at Staples, I bought a V2000(white box) fw 4.05.03. Replaced the AP for the RTV in the bedroom. Again, no problem streaming from DVA to RTV. **No problem** streaming from RTV to VLC, watched the entire first quarter of high quality recorded Purdue crushing ND in football. Did not notice a single second of video drop. CA worked perfectly too.
I don't have DUMeter but DVA shows download hovering around 680 KB/s.
All of the above with the RTV off in the bedroom. When I went to turn on the RTV, the guide took about a minute to show up, VLC frozed until I selected a show to play on RTV. No problem after that.
The router is still V1444, the AP is V2000. I am not sure if the original V1444 AP is defective or not. Of course, I may switch the V1444 router to become the AP and the V2000 AP to be the router, then I could see if there are any problems. Since everything is working as well as I could expect, I don't think I will muck with it though.

[repnewbie]

I can also confirm that the V2000 model of the F5D7230-4 solves all our streaming problems. The firmware on this unit is 4.05.03 (V1444 has 4.03.03). This baby streams to and from other replays like a champion!! Search your local staples and compusa until you find the V2000. Goodluck.

[BillRubin]

Thanks to everyone for confirming that the v2000 does not have the problems that the v1444 did. I actually have 2 v2000's at home, got both of them free or better. I have the first one in use as my normal router but have not set up the 2nd one as bridge yet. I originally had 2 v1444's, but through some determined searching I managed to find v2000's at a couple of Circuit City stores and exchanged the 1444's for them. The v2000's seem to be more available now, but the last time I looked at my local CC, they had a couple of dozen v1444's on an end cap, and I' m sure they were not going to be getting a new shipment until those got sold, no matter how long it took!

The amazing thing on the v2000 is that the material on the CD is dated March of 2004, so they must have had this thing ready to go for some time. Also, I understand that the wireless chip in the 2000 is the same as in the 1444, so maybe they did fix the firmware (the Ethernet chip is apparently different)

Oh and Staples has these for $20 after rebate this week, less any coupons you may be able to find.

[sfhub]

I guess the question is whether they will release 4.05.03 for v1444.
It isn't on their website.

[slowbiscuit]

Has anyone else besides me tried flashing the v1444 Belkin router with the 7231 firmware to see if the streaming prob goes away? This model is the high-speed (125 HSM) version of the 7230 and when you flash in the firmware for it from the Belkin site (a later rev, 4.03.04) you also get high-speed mode avail in the wireless options. This apparently does not work on a pre-v1444 router. Also, you have to use a hex editor to change the first 4 bytes of the firmware to the string 'LOAD' to get the 7230 to take it. I can confirm that it does work, at least as a wired router, and mine says that it's now a 7231 with the 4.03.04 firmware loaded. However, I'm not using it for wireless at the moment. Perhaps this rev fixes the bug?

There's lots more info at DSLreports (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11861160~mode=flat) if interested.

[GooberedUp]

I do so love hacks. I bought four of the version 2000s now to replace all the version 111x types that I have now. I'm hoping that the speed boost all works out well.

[Kuczynski]

I upgraded my v1444 router with no problems. The biggest issue was that all the route configuration info was reset to the defaults.

The wireless and wired ports work with no problems.

An easy upgrade if you have v1444 of the hardware.

Mark

[repnewbie]

Originally posted by Kuczynski
I upgraded my v1444 router with no problems. The biggest issue was that all the route configuration info was reset to the defaults.

The wireless and wired ports work with no problems.

An easy upgrade if you have v1444 of the hardware.

Mark

Is the streaming problem solved after the upgrade?

[GooberedUp]

So, my question after all this.

Is the 1444 the router to have then? On DSLR someone was saying the v2000 didn't work wioth the 7231 firmware. Here, I'm reading the firmware at least took. Has anyone tested the performance both for packet dropping and for turbo mode?

[Kuczynski]

Unfortunately, the streaming problem isn't fixed. As I understand it, the firmware between the two models is almost identical.

Mark

[BillRubin]

Please post your source for the problem not being fixed as this is the first I'm hearing of it.

[GooberedUp]

What about hsm mode on the 1444. Is it truly working?

[GooberedUp]

Originally posted by Kuczynski
Unfortunately, the streaming problem isn't fixed. As I understand it, the firmware between the two models is almost identical.

Mark

Is that from your personal experience posted above?

[Kuczynski]

It's sort of based on both... :) It's based on comments from DSLReports and when I streamed a few minutes from my 4080 to my laptop. The video got hung up for a few seconds during this period.

I still need to upgrade my desktop PCI card/drivers to take advantage of the 125Mb High Speed mode.

Mark

[GooberedUp]

Thanks. Don't know what to do then yet. I've got either 1444 or 2000 units I can keep (my choice). Depending on their ability to stream correctly and use HSM, I'm not sure which ones to keep.

[freealta]

I updated the v1444 AP to HSM that was having problem streaming to the v1444 router. After the upgrade, I still have the same problem streaming from the AP to the router. The v2000 streaming to the v1444 router do not have any problem. See my previous post on my mixed v1444 and v2000 setup. One thing to note is that you **can't** be in hsm when bridging. You can only use the Burst mode in bridge, so upgrading to hsm won't do you any good if you are using it as a bridge, and secondly, it doesn't seem to resolve the streaming issue.
I would definitely keep the v2000. I will be returning the v1444 setup as the AP. Not sure if I will return the other v1444 router since it is streaming perfectly as a router.

[GreenMonkey]

freealta-

So you are using the 1444 on the cable/dsl connection as the router, and the 2000 at the Replay TV to stream to/from the PCs, right? So the 1444 is doing the internet duties and the 2000 is just shuttling data to/from the internet, right?

I tried bridging after I got another 1444 model on the staples deal this week. When it arrived it was another 1444. I had to return it as it kept interrupting games on Xbox live every 1-2 minutes (1444/1444 combo). I am probably going to pick up the v.2000 at the higher price as suddenly they have appeared in stock at my local Staples B&M. Just confirming the setup.

1444 - Router @ PCs where the internet connection is, hardwired to internet

2000 - running access point duties, bridging other devices to the internet/main network.

[GooberedUp]

Thanks for the great post. I'll keep the 2000s and cancel the 1444 units.

My other question is whether these 2000 units work better than the 11XX units. I put a 2000 unit on a PC and it's receiving and transmitting at twice the speed (about 24 mbps) to my 1xxx main router relative to another 1xxx AP (about 13Mbps) I have set up. But, that "slower" AP is located a few feet away in another room and not necessarily in an ideal position or with ideal antenna seperation.

I'm planning on doing a swap and testing out the speed.

nm: It was a distance/location/antenna thing. No performance difference that I can tell.

[GooberedUp]

Originally posted by GreenMonkey
freealta-

So you are using the 1444 on the cable/dsl connection as the router, and the 2000 at the Replay TV to stream to/from the PCs, right? So the 1444 is doing the internet duties and the 2000 is just shuttling data to/from the internet, right?

I tried bridging after I got another 1444 model on the staples deal this week. When it arrived it was another 1444. I had to return it as it kept interrupting games on Xbox live every 1-2 minutes (1444/1444 combo). I am probably going to pick up the v.2000 at the higher price as suddenly they have appeared in stock at my local Staples B&M. Just confirming the setup.

1444 - Router @ PCs where the internet connection is, hardwired to internet

2000 - running access point duties, bridging other devices to the internet/main network.

That setup has always worked. It's just that having the 1444 on the RTV is what is problematic.

For myself, if the units can't be bridged and do HSM at the same time, then it makes my inquiry regarding HSM on the Belkins moot.

[jlv]

I hadn't look in here in a while and never saw the reports about the v2000 units with 4.05.03 firmware not dropping packets. I'll have to see if I can find one of those...

[BillRubin]

I'm running 3 of the 2000's and have not had any problems.

[icecow]

Originally posted by jlv
I hadn't look in here in a while and never saw the reports about the v2000 units with 4.05.03 firmware not dropping packets. I'll have to see if I can find one of those...

I don't rule out that your experience with belkin was a factor why the current v2000s work. Telephone based customer service is more or less designed to keep customers at bay. So if someone gets all the way in like you did the buzz might have went far.. all the way back to the company that makes the hardware. They can only imagine how much of their customer base were aware of the problem. Either that or they were always fully aware of the problem and needed to empty their warehouses.

conjecture, conjecture, conjecture

[sfhub]

My conjecture is they just went with a slightly newer hardware
reference platform and Broadcom fed them fixed drivers.

I seriously doubt Belkin ever reported the problem. That's not
how their organization works.

They mostly slap their name on stuff other people build for them
and provide the base minimum support.

[jlv]

Originally posted by icecow
I don't rule out that your experience with belkin was a factor why the current v2000s work. While I'd love to think something constructive came out of the tens of hours I spent on the phone with them, I doubt it...


4.05.03 was already made! (well, it looks like it was made in September, and I started talking to them on July 31)


Here are the "other" download locations for Belkin firmware. You might like what I discovered:

7230 4.03.03
http://networking.belkin.com/update/files/54g_router.html
http://networking.belkin.com/update/files/usa/BELKIN_54G_RT_USA_4.03.03.bin
Last-Modified: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:42:00 GMT

7231 4.03.04
http://networking.belkin.com/update/files/usa/125/54g_router.html
http://networking.belkin.com/update/files/usa/125/BELKIN_RT_USA_4.03.04.bin
Last-Modified: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 08:30:00 GMT

I was reading the last post at seatlewireless by "seg", where he shows that these two firmware images are the same, with just some config data different. One item is the URL for the upload link, which goes to those above pages.

So, I got to thinking... and I tried to change the URL:

7230 4.05.03
http://networking.belkin.com/update/files/usa/54g_router.html
http://networking.belkin.com/update/files/usa/BELKIN_RT_54G_USA_4.05.03.bin
Last-Modified: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:47:00 GMT

And, this works also:

7231 4.05.03
http://networking.belkin.com/update/files/usa/125/BELKIN_RT_USA_4.05.03.bin
Last-Modified: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:24:00 GMT


The HTML page for all three images lists the "release date" as "9/30/2004". However, the dates above are the last-modified dates returned via a HEAD... you can see the images released in 10/2004 (4.03.03/4.03.04) were built in April, and the ones that haven't been released yet (except in product) were built in September.

[GreenMonkey]

Just looking for some input on that new firmware listed above.

I have a v 2000 and a v 1444 set up with the 1444 at the cable modem and the 2000 providing bridging for the xbox, etc to the cable modem connection.

I still get random disconnects from xbox live and occasional lag. Xbox official tests from the console test fine.

Here's the interesting thing - I tried running a 25 ft ethernet cable to see if it made the problem any better. Nope. Same problem.

PCs experience absolutely no problem as I play Battle for Middle Earth excessively these days.

----------------------------------------
Interestingly I tried to manually forward the xbox ports and got the following error when trying to set up port 88:

"The public port number cannot be 88.Because it will have a collision with the Wireless Router web service"

So much for that idea.

EDIT: I will ask in the other 7230 thread. Never mind.

[gatogordo]

Just wanted to post my results of firmware 4.05 on my v1444. I have v2000 on rtv bridged to v1444 in bridge mode connected to my dlink router. The dvarchive transfer speed slowed from 1.6 mbps to about 1.0 mbps. I think I will go back to 4.03.

BTW, I didn't have any packet loss problems from v2000@RTV bridged to the v1444 4.03 firmware connected to my dlink router. I wanted to see how the bridge would work with the new 4.05 firmware.

I'm curious to see someone else's results from changing to 4.05 firmware on the v1444 router.

[tomho]

What's been your experience with the F5D7231-4 ?

[Synapse]

Firmware Version
4.05.03
Boot Version
2.01.09
Hardware
F5D7230-4

Mine is a v2000 and streams from a 4160 to my xp pc just fine! :)

[Jeff D]

[QUOTE=j.m.]Sveasoft Alchemy will reportedly now run on the WBR-G54. It will not run on the WBR2-G54 because it uses a flash chip that isn't supported by their Linux kernel at the moment. This could change.

Previously, Sveasoft indicated he had given up on getting the firmware to run on the Belkins, largely due to their lack of response to inquiries about more complete source code. However, another guy has subsequently figured out how to run OpenWRT (another 3rd party firmware) on the F5D7230-4 by slightly changing the format of the firmware file to match a few peculiarities the Belkin expects (kinda like MPEG-2 vs. RTVConvert'ed MPEG-2). Details are here (http://www.midnightcode.org/papers/OpenWRT%20on%20the%20Belkin%20F5D7230-4.pdf). This guy is now a member of the Sveasoft development team, so I would expect to see a Belkin-compatible release in the future.[/QUOTE]

This a bug with the new interface? j.m.'s link "here" doesn't appear as a link, but plain text.

[Jeff D]

Anyone notice that sveasoft is testing some new firmwares? I don't know what the differences are yet, as they don't clearly describe the different versions. They are beta testing talisman on the belkin right now.

I picked up one of the belkin routers from CC on the -20 pricing. I had just picked up a WRT54G yesterday and have been impressed with the Alchemy firmware. I'm curious how well talisman will work on the belkin.

[Jeff D]

[QUOTE=Jeff D]This a bug with the new interface? j.m.'s link "here" doesn't appear as a link, but plain text.[/QUOTE]

Glad they got that fixed! Links are back to a different color than normal text!

[tomho]

Anyone have any experience with the Motorola WE800G Wireless 802.11g Ethernet Bridge with your ReplayTVs?

I found them at ComputerGeeks.