Terranex in a DVD player

[DanHouck]

In case you didn't notice the press release, I'm posting it here. Seems to me this is really significant for us DP users, given how Alan has raved about the impact of the Terranex in his HT.

---------------

DENON SELECTS REALTA HQV™ VIDEO PROCESSING
CHIP FOR ITS FLAGSHIP DVD PLAYER
World preview at London Hi-fi Show on November 5, 2004

San Jose , Calif. (Nov 5, 2004 ) - Silicon Optix’s Realta chip with Hollywood Quality Video (HQV ) technology has been selected by Denon for its new DVD-A1XV DVD player (DVD-5910) in the USA .

“For our flagship DVD player we needed the industry’s flagship video processor. Once we did side-by-side comparisons, we quickly realised that there really was no other solution that could match the incredible picture quality that the Realta HQV chip delivers,” commented Roger Batchelor, Product Manager of Denon UK ..

The award-winning Realta chip originates from Teranex’s $60,000 broadcast and post-production platforms. Teranex’s software algorithms run on Realta’s fully-programmable, trillion operations per second video processing engine to deliver a new standard in image quality, a standard Silicon Optix is calling ‘Hollywood Quality Video’, or HQV.

HQV represents the world’s highest quality de-interlacing, pixel-based noise reduction, automatic per pixel film/video cadence detection, and detail enhancement.

“No other technology enables a level of image quality that comes close to HQV, when converting standard DVD video and film to high definition, “ said Roger from Denon.

“With the introduction of the DVD-A1XV consumers can upgrade their home theater systems to experience true Hollywood Quality Video,” continued Roger. “The Denon DVD-A1XV, which is already seriously high-end in every respect, will feature the ’HQV Powered by Teranex‘ logo so that customers know that they are getting the world’s very best video processing, in the world´s best DVD Player."

“The Realta HQV chip is the new leader in video processing. Big kudos to Denon for being the first manufacturer to bring this powerful Teranex-in-a-chip video processing to the home," said Pete Putman of HDTVExpert.com

The Denon-A1XV DVD player will be available in the UK in the first quarter of 2005 and has an RRP of £2499.99 (TBC) US availability of the DVD-5910 should be in the same timeframe.

To learn more about Realta HQV go to www.hqv.com .

--------------------

Interesting, eh??

[LMDA1]

"Once we did side-by-side comparisons, we quickly realised that there really was no other solution that could match the incredible picture quality that the Realta HQV chip delivers"

Talk about burning bridges, very exciting for us though.

[Jedi]

....it will be even better when this chip is incorporated into projectors and other display devices, so that the benefits can be enjoyed across all inputs -- not just DVD.

[mpjohnst]

Yeah, it's kind of hard to justify spending $2500 on a DVD player when you'll probably be able to get a scalar with the same chip for a similar price. Of course, some out there can afford the best (and will settle for nothing less). For me however, this DVD player is more than half my budget for my next projector! Sounds sweet though...
-Matt

[REWJR]

I will wait for the LUMAGEN HQV box.

[mark haflich]

A year from now on that, I would guess, assuming it happens.

[Jorus]

I'm holding out for a Realta HTPC solution, which the HQV representative has hinted at...

[TheFerret]

Keep in mind its the only way Denon can justify the crazy price for a [b]DVD[/d] player. But, considering that there is always a market with sufficient more money than sense buyers ...

[J.Mike Ferrara]

Is it really $3500 better than my Bravo D1 feeding direct digital pixel mapped video to my projector?

[LMDA1]

Sure, its got apparent blacker blacks and whiter whites and an organic picture and sound unmatched by any player at or up to 3X it's cost. At least that's more or less what magazines always say when they need to justify the cost of a high-end piece.

[Jerry Pease]

Originally posted by mpjohnst
Yeah, it's kind of hard to justify spending $2500 on a DVD player when you'll probably be able to get a scalar with the same chip for a similar price.
the 2,499 quote was pounds. That would be approx.4,642.12$ US

that is a lot of money for a dvd player that will probably be replaced with HD-DVD soon.

[anthonymoody]

Couple thoughts:

1) this DVD player might have video *inputs* which would allow it to function as a scaler
2) I think the price will be closer to $2500 despite the currency conversion. Why? Denon's distribution policy makes arbing such a price discrepancy difficult.

TM

[Jerry Pease]

Originally posted by anthonymoody
2) I think the price will be closer to $2500 despite the currency conversion. Why? Denon's distribution policy makes arbing such a price discrepancy difficult.

TM
somewhere in the dvd forum Kris Deering hinted or maybe even stated (I can't remember) it would be a lot more than 2,000 - 2,500$ US

[John Kotches]

I would guess it's going to have a US MSRP of about $4000. I don't have anything to back up the guess, so take that for what it's worth.

Cheers,

[thebland]

Wow. Always some thing to buy.....That is about what I expected to pay for a BluRay player.

Man oh man...and it may be available in 2 mos!

[darinp2]

Originally posted by thebland
and it may be available in 2 mos!
I read, "first quarter of 2005" as "If you know somebody you might be able to get one by the end of March." :)

Much sooner than that would seem pretty agressive if the video processor was just picked.

--Darin

[thebland]

Originally posted by darinp2
I read, "first quarter of 2005" as "If you know somebody you might be able to get one by the end of March." :)

Much sooner than that would seem pretty agressive if the video processor was just picked.

--Darin

Well...I imagine there would have to be some hurry as the DVD player life cycle (after almost a decade in existance) is coming to the beginning of it's end next year when the HD formats come about.

Fun stuff.

[anthonymoody]

I'm pretty confident it'll be shown at CES with shipping shortly thereafter. Could be wrong of course.

TM

[thebland]

Any info on MSRP??

[John Kotches]

Jeff:

Based on currency conversion rates, my guess is $4000-5000.

Cheers,

[thebland]

Originally posted by John Kotches
Jeff:

Based on currency conversion rates, my guess is $4000-5000.

Cheers,

Isn't the Euro conversion about 1.3 dollars per Euro? Did soneone above say U.K. price was said to be $2000-$2400 Euros? That would make it ($2600-$2720 USD)??

EDIT: OOPS...I saw above the conversion was in pounds...Yikes!!

[tbhugh]

Originally posted by thebland
Isn't the Euro conversion about 1.3 dollars per Euro? Did soneone above say U.K. price was said to be $2000-$2400 Euros? That would make it ($2600-$2720 USD)??

EDIT: OOPS...I saw above the conversion was in pounds...Yikes!!

"We are not Europeans we are British..." Kinda like "We are not American we are Texans..." :D

[TheFerret]

Originally posted by tbhugh
"We are not Europeans we are British..." Kinda like "We are not American we are Texans..." :D Yeah, but Texans are Americans because they could be allowed to run freely. :D

[DaViD Boulet]

Hmmm. Does this Denon have DVI output? Will it pass the HD scaled image via DVI and component even for "copyrighted" material? If I can't watch Shrek2 or Aladdin upconverted due to copy-coded DVD flagging then Denon might as well not even bother.

BTW, though such scaling stuff would be WAY COOL in the projector too, it's also great to have it at the source where deinterlacing and initial signal processing can take advantage. DVI can't pass 480I so if only your projector had T-processing you'd still be relying on the DVD player's deinterlacer...most of which leave lots to be desired when processing video-source material.

[darinp2]

Originally posted by DaViD Boulet
Hmmm. Does this Denon have DVI output? Will it pass the HD scaled image via DVI and component even for "copyrighted" material? If I can't watch Shrek2 or Aladdin upconverted due to copy-coded DVD flagging then Denon might as well not even bother.
I would guess HDMI (which can be used as DVI) output with upscaling only over this output and not over component. I believe this would pretty much line up with what the 5900 does.

--Darin

[4K display]

2499EUR(EURO) = 3219usd
2499GBP(UK Pound) = 4610usd

I have no doubts this will be the finest dvd player ever made, but with next-gen high def dvd players less than a year away...why??

[Carl Brinkman]

Why ?

Did SACD or DVD-A knock off red book CDs ? How long do you think it will take for someone with a few hundred DVDs to replace them with "next gen" HD DVDs regardless of which format wins. Does anyone think there will be a huge rush to re-release existing DVDs on whichever format the studio is aligned with. In the mean time this is a pretty cost effective solution to maximize what's available.

The price being guessed at isn't a lot if someone already has a projector that can accept it's input. Remember that compared to the low volumes of projectors sold Sony sold an awful lot of their first generation $5,000 SACD players. It might not be "mainstream" but they ought to sell lots of these players.

[TheFerret]

If this marvel of a chip can make its way into a $2500-3000 DVD player, why not a scaler is equal expense and not gridlock into a conventional DVD play product?

Carl, unless they need outdoor portability, anyone can catalog their optical libraries on a home server, and also custom mix for outdoor portability.

[Carl Brinkman]

I'm sure that in time this marvelous chip will find it's way into lots of products across the board. For now it's probably a matter of who has sufficient engineering resources to incorporate it first and where THEY think that the immediate demand lies. I do believe that the developer of a chip like this would probably rather work with a large well known company like Denon rather than a small mostly unknown company like most of the external video processor outfits.

I also expect that in time someone will market a DVI to component box to allow DVD flagged content to be shown over component inputs; just like obtaining the digital DSD stream from SACD players. Products follow the demand, always. Though it probably will also be an "underground" effort.

[J.Mike Ferrara]

I agree with David B.
I want to be able to scale the DVD DVI output pixel for pixel to my projector. That's what I do now for under $200.

Nevertheless, the Teranex's ability to modify color space is a very cool feature, as well as its world class de-interlacing.

[DaViD Boulet]

Did SACD or DVD-A knock off red book CDs ? How long do you think it will take for someone with a few hundred DVDs to replace them with "next gen" HD DVDs regardless of which format wins. Does anyone think there will be a huge rush to re-release existing DVDs on whichever format the studio is aligned with. In the mean time this is a pretty cost effective solution to maximize what's available.

I think his point was more that for the $$$ that this Denon will cost, you could wait and shortly get an HD-DVD player that will also upconvert your SD-DVD collection...and possibly incorporate the same T-chip to do it. Why spend so much on a player limited to standard-def DVDs when the same $$ could get you a player that will also play true HD content a few months down the road?

-dave

[Carl Brinkman]

Originally posted by DaViD Boulet
I think his point was more that for the $$$ that this Denon will cost, you could wait and shortly get an HD-DVD player that will also upconvert your SD-DVD collection...and possibly incorporate the same T-chip to do it. Why spend so much on a player limited to standard-def DVDs when the same $$ could get you a player that will also play true HD content a few months down the road?

-dave

Well I think that the availability of a HD DVD player is more than a few months off. And then you never know whether they will have the T-chip in it or not. Is there any feedback from Japan saying anyone there is using a Blu-Ray player to play standard DVDs with greatly increased resolution ? I'm sure we would have heard of it around here first.

You were in the vocal group thinking we were suckers for buying the early 720 projectors too. You predicted they would be $5k later in the same year. Things always take longer to play out than many folks desire. In the mean time those who are willing to pay choose from the what's available at the time.

[Art Sonneborn]

I just think it would be great to have that chip in a stand alone processor for say $2000. Even if we see an HD optical disc at the end of 2005 or early 2006 when we we have many of our favorites in that format ? Will it take six years or more, as it has with SD DVD ? In that case ,the best possible processing for DVD will still have a place IMO.


Art

[mark haflich]

Art. It's coming from multiple manufacturers. Algolith will be first with a price point similar to their MNR box power buyed at AVS. RCA connectors, no SDI, ugh, I'll wait for something else. Silicon Optix will likely manufacturer its own Realta based processor sometime in 2005. The board or close to it already exists. They make non Realta based ones now.

The processor market is minuscule. The small guys who have been developing new product for sometime financially can't just say, throw it all out, will go with the Realta now. They must bring to market what they have been developing and then sometime down the road offer a more expensive Realta based unit. More expensive? Yes. They can't offer a new machine at or close to the price of what they bring to market immediately without pissing off prior purchasers. So I suspect sort of an artificial price difference. Buy the present one, its great value, the new one will be much more expensive and its at least 9 months off, but we will give you a great trade in. You have six great crystal balls, er lenses, on your G90 stack. I look into my 9500LC G17 lenses to make these predictions (turn the contrast waaaaaay down). Do not try this with a Qualia. Stay tuned for how this works with a Fujitsu.

[Jedi]

...one has to think RPTV's (digital or otherwise) will be the biggest market, however the chip in RPTV's will have to yield a convincingly better picture to justify its extra cost.

[HQV]

Jorus: I was teasing, not hinting ;)

Can't wait til CES.... :cool:

[TheFerret]

Question: What will this product do for poorly-transferred DVD's?

[J.Mike Ferrara]

The Ferret:
It will take Die Hard 3 and turn it into HD.

[darinp2]

Originally posted by J.Mike Ferrara
The Ferret:
It will take Die Hard 3 and turn it into HD.
Will it improve the acting in any of the Star Wars movies? :)

--Darin

[keenan]

Originally posted by darinp2
Will it improve the acting in any of the Star Wars movies? :)

--Darin

Maybe the $60,000 model, and even then....:p

[Robert2413]

Originally posted by DaViD Boulet
Hmmm. Does this Denon have DVI output? Will it pass the HD scaled image via DVI and component even for "copyrighted" material? If I can't watch Shrek2 or Aladdin upconverted due to copy-coded DVD flagging then Denon might as well not even bother.


DVI output = yes. (Also probably Firewire and HDMI.)
All digital outputs will only work into copy protected inputs.
Component will not output anything above 480p.

These are the DVD Forum licensing restrictions and there is nothing that Denon can do about it.

[RU Geekman]

Originally posted by darinp2
Will it improve the acting in any of the Star Wars movies? :) This technology will finally make Mark Hamill Oscar-worthy and reveal that those things on Carrie Fisher's head were actually... cinnabuns.

[Erik Garci]

Originally posted by RU Geekman
and reveal that those things on Carrie Fisher's head were actually... cinnabuns.
That was already revealed by the "Smell-O-Vision Edition". :p

[RU Geekman]

Could someone please change the thread title so that "Teranex" is not misspelled? Anyone doing a search with the correct name will likely miss this thread.

[Brandon B]

Only if they search 'titles only'. Why would they do that?

BB

[RU Geekman]

A novice might not know better. Just a suggestion.

[HQV]

Question: What will this product do for poorly-transferred DVD's?

The most obvious ammelioration will be a reduction in noise and increased detail. The Noise Reduction algorithm is astounding (Teranex!) and it's possible that codec noise and block removal algos be soon made available. The detail enhancement is better than anything else I've seen; it's capable of rendering SD look like HD (that's the most common response we get during demos)... it gives it that extra 'pop.'

You'll have control of these image-tweaking functions; how much control depends on how Denon implemented Realta. But it's Denon, and this'll be their flagship player, and therefore very sweet.

[Bytehoven]

Originally posted by HQV
You'll have control of these image-tweaking functions; how much control depends on how Denon implemented Realta. But it's Denon, and this'll be there flagship player, and therefore very sweet.

So, you mean Denon will find a way to produce MB and excessive EE?

:D

Sorry, just kidding. I am looking forward to seeing the player, having already spoken atlength with a local Denon dealer.

[drapp1952]

For those of you who don't frequent the DVD forum, Kris Deering has reviewed (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=121) this player.

Dan

[DanHouck]

Hey, six months ago I couldn't spell Teranex and I still don't have one. :D

Dan

[DanHouck]

Drapp, after reading that, I'm glad I went for the 3910. Now I'm holding out for a TERANEX-equipped video processor. IMO, that is the logical place for this chip to reside.

Dan Houck

[QQQ]

I just read this re-birthed thread and am shaking my head. What we have here is a very exciting DVD player, the very first on the market, that potentially allows consumers to achieve previously unattainable levels of performance from DVD and all everyone can do is complain that it's not $200. Geesh!

As for the review, it's good but also from a typically out of touch videophile. He makes a huge issue out of the fact that it does not allow custom resolutions. Hmmm...it does 720P and 1080i. Last I noticed those were the the native resolutions of the majority of high-end digital projectors on the market, with the exception of some DILA. I certainly understand the desire for more resolution settings but he makes it sound like a HUGE oversight.

[thirdkind]

It is a pretty big oversight considering the flexibility of the electronics. Remember that not everyone who owns or will buy a high-end digital display will be purchasing a product that's discussed in this particular forum. It's true that most high-end DLP- and LCD-based displays are 720p. Not all DLPs/LCDs are 720p and most displays that aren't DLP/LCD are also not 720p.

Let's face it, these "previously unattainable levels of performance" are mere subtleties to most. Just as the difference between 1:1 pixel mapping and double scaling is subtle to or unnoticeable by many, so is the difference between Realta deinterlacing and Sil504 deinterlacing. If you're going to argue that hitting native resolution isn't that important, then you better be ready to dismiss the benefits of Realta right along with native resolution scaling. If you're going to argue that Realta deinterlacing is the sh*t, then proper scaling to native resolution is just as important.

It's particularly asinine not to offer 1080p output considering that's where everything is going eventually. Is it that much harder than 720p? No.

If Denon is going to market the product as the ultimate DVD player with the ultimate in deinterlacing/scaling technology, it should live up to that moniker. That includes scaling to resolutions other than 720p and 1080i.

If a $200 Momitsu can do it, why not a $3500 flagship with some of the best deinterlacing and scaling electronics on the market?

It's the videophiles who should be shaking their heads over Denon's efforts lately. It's usually not big problems with Denon that drive people crazy. It's the little things--the attention to detail that distinguishes the goods from the greats--that Denon consistently gets wrong. And it's not like they haven't received tons of feedback on what enthusiasts want. They just don't listen.

The substandard MPEG decoder is a perfect example. For God's sake, why? There are better solutions out there. MPEG decoding is the foundation of DVD player image quality. Get that wrong and you've crippled the rest of the chain already. When Denon introduced a seamless layer change in the 2900, everyone cheered thinking it meant the death of the annoying pause in the middle of the film. But they haven't managed to do it on another DVD player since--not even this mighty new beast--despite the fact that a sub-$200 Toshiba DVD/VCR COMBO UNIT has a better MPEG decoder with zero layer change.

The price is also disappointing when you consider that you could buy an upcoming Realta-based scaler that will likely accept 480i via HDMI along with a matching DVD player for about the same amount.

I don't think people are whining because it costs more than $200. People simply expect a lot more from a $3500 DVD player.

Kris was right to bash it. It doesn't get the job done considering the MSRP.

[QQQ]

All very good points except for the last one - people were whining LONG before they new of the shortcomings listed in this review so I don't think it had anything to do with the fact that the player has some shortcomings. I certainly understand people wanting to see the Realta chip in less expensive players but when does that ever happen with a product like this. That's like expecting Intels latest fastest chip to be in the cheapest computers. In 6 months, maybe. I now agree it should have other resolutions, certainly 1080P and found your other arguments convincing as well.

[thirdkind]

That's what I get for not reading the whole thread before responding, and I hate it when others do that. Shame on me.

I agree that the Realta is a high-end chip, and as such should demand a high price. No reason to expect it in cheap DVD players anytime soon.

I have an Onkyo SP1000 myself. Not in the price range of the Denon, but more than most DVD players. If I truly felt the Denon offered equal performance to a Realta scaler and high-quality DVD player, I'd say it's worth the money and would likely buy one (and endure the subsequent beating from my fiancee).

Does the Denon have inputs for scaling outside sources? The Integra version of the Onkyo SP1000 offers this feature, letting you use the Sil504 and O-Plus scaler for other sources. That would add a lot of value to the Denon in my eyes.

[DanHouck]

Q, I have to respectfully disagree as well. I think most people have different expectations depending on price level. $3500 is a very expensive DVD player. For that kind of money, you have higher expectations. IMO that is where Kris is coming from. This player doesn't even have the scaling capabililties of $200 competitors. Not good.

In the final analysis, though, I based my decision to buy the 3910 on the knowledge that the Teranex chip will soon be available in a video processor and IMHO that is the optimal location for that capability. Given the multitude of sources we all seem to have these days, unless you buy one of only a few two-box projectors, you almost need a video processor to switch and "massage" these widely disparate inputs. Indeed, I may find the 3910 is "overqualified" with the right video processor. But it also has great audio capabilities and a rock-solid transport, so I can't go too far wrong.

Regarding video processors, it is unfortunate that DVDO has failed to recognize this with their otherwise superb HD+ that sadly has only one DVI input. There is every indication we will shortly see competing products that provide both the switching and processing capabilities that will centralize these functions and make a $3500 DVD player redundant.

My strategy is to combine a high-quality DVD player like the 3910 with a processor that will allow me to also process the HDTV signal, switch all my inputs and run just one HDMI cable to the projector, thereby killing two birds with one stone. I've started my long delayed upgrade by focusing on my sources, upgrading my HD box and now my DVD player. I'm going to continue to process my "digital cable" source through my Faroudja NRS--it does a great job with it. Next on the agenda is a new projector. I am following developments with the Canon SX50 closely, but would not pull the trigger on one until the video processor is also available, as it is definitely required with the Canon.

If this is unrealistic or doesn't make sense, please don't hesitate to say so.

Dan

[QQQ]

Originally posted by DanHouck
Q, I have to respectfully disagree as well.
I already said Third Kind made some convincing arguments. That's sort of like saying that he might be right and I might be wrong. Sort of :D.

Edit: But your still a cheapskate and should just buy a Qualia if you own 4307 apartments. That's the number, right :D?

[DanHouck]

That's sort of like saying that he might be right and I might be wrong.

Hey, let's don't get carried away with wearing the hair shirt here! :D

Dan

P.S.--Damn right I'm a cheapskate. And proud of it! :)

[QQQ]

You can't hold a candle to Bob Wood. Bob, if you're out there would you please post a pic of your repaired BOSE speakers? I think this thread is about to run out of steam.

[thirdkind]

Originally posted by DanHouck
Regarding video processors, it is unfortunate that DVDO has failed to recognize this with their otherwise superb HD+ that sadly has only one DVI input.

Fortunately, iScan was showing a processor at CES with multiple HDMI inputs, and I believe they're shooting for true 1080i deinterlacing also (rather than the 540p bob they're currently doing). Should be nice when it finally gets here.

[DanHouck]

Yes, I expect they'll remedy this deficiency and I am hoping they will include the Realta processing as well. I really like the DVDO products--add real switich capability, 1080i deinterlacing and Realta and it is a done deal for me. I'd have no problem paying $2500 for a unit that does all this.

Any idea when this unit would be available?

Dan

[darinp2]

Originally posted by QQQ
As for the review, it's good but also from a typically out of touch videophile. He makes a huge issue out of the fact that it does not allow custom resolutions. Hmmm...it does 720P and 1080i. Last I noticed those were the the native resolutions of the majority of high-end digital projectors on the market, with the exception of some DILA. I certainly understand the desire for more resolution settings but he makes it sound like a HUGE oversight.
Sorry, but I think "out of touch" would apply to only thinking about digital projectors in looking at this review. As it pointed out, one of the main complaints about only 720p and 1080i was because of the resolutions on plasmas. And plasmas way out-sell digital projectors. I'm sure that Denon would like to sell many units to plasma owners and with so many high end plasmas being neither 720p nor 1080i I think the point is valid.

--Darin

[darinp2]

One more thing. Even 1080i isn't the resolution for the Qualia, HD2K, or Fujitsu LCOS or upcoming 1080p LCD projectors. Only outputting 1080i and not 1080p (in some form) forces another scaler/deinterlacer to get involved. While not a big deal, I think supporting 1080/24PsF would have been a good move by Denon. At the least it would have addressed the Qualia 004 FPTV and RPTV 006 (I'm guessing that also supports this, but haven't found detailed specs) and maybe gotten other manufacturers to support this input type.

Overall they seem to be getting this thing to market quicker than I would normally expect and so I can understand why they would have to limit some things though.

--Darin

[QQQ]

Originally posted by darinp2
Sorry, but I think "out of touch" would apply to only thinking about digital projectors in looking at this review. As it pointed out, one of the main complaints about only 720p and 1080i was because of the resolutions on plasmas. And plasmas way out-sell digital projectors. I'm sure that Denon would like to sell many units to plasma owners and with so many high end plasmas being neither 720p nor 1080i I think the point is valid.
I already changed my position and acknowledged that. But plasma owners wouldn't know the difference any way ;).