Want to install 2nd Hard drive

[grgeiger]

Hello... I am sorry for asking a silly question.. :)
I owned my Replay for over a year. I want to install a 2nd drive. Its coming to a point where 80 hours just isn't enough on my 5080 machine.. Time for me to shop around for 2nd drive..

From the information I was reading it is better to have 2 drives with the same speed and same cache.. If I own a 5080, what speed and cache is normally used in that particular model? Or does the type of drive vary with each individual unit? (I probably could open the cover. I don't want to spend an hour moving a 300 pound entertainment center, hooking and unhooking a mountain of wires.)

My 2nd question.. If you install a 2nd drive.. Would you need to drill some extra holes for cooling?


3rd Question...How do you get the wife to approve of me sticking another $100.00 into the PVR?

[icecow]

l8er has a site that shows how to put in two drives. Doing a 5xxx is particularly easy.
http://www.replaytvupgrade.com/

don't get samsung, IBM Deskstar, or a 250gig sized hitachi.

Maxtor, seagate, hitachi, western digital are ok

I recommend seagates for their 5 year warranty and frequent after rebate cost.


replaytvs are more stable if you just use one drive. If you have more than one Replaytv it will take a long time for other ReplayTV's to remotely access the Replay Guide of any ReplayTV that has a huge drive.


If you are going big and have more than one replaytv, consider running DVarchive on a computer 24/7 and put some big drives in the computer.

[plyons10]

There are more than a few of us here who would agree with Cow that at some point you are better off putting a big drive in your PC and running DVArchive to save off stuff that you want to keep around for a while.

Many of us with broadband access keep our PCs on all the time anyway. I always did in order to serve music up to my Audiotron (http://www.turtlebeach.com/site/products/audiotron/) .

First of all, you will not slow down the response time when you browse the guide on your existing Replay unit. Overall, you will also reduce your likelihood of getting a corrupted file on the Replay. Also, if you ever have problems with DVArchive, like a corrupted file, and you need to re-install, you won't lose all your shows. I had 200gb drives in two of my Replays -- one of them crapped out and I lost so many shows I realized the better and more stable option was to put the drives in my PC.

Browsing a 200gb drive via DVArchive can take some time, so you need to use the show categories wisely. But you can set things up such that only long-term storage is put on the DVArchive machine. I personally put things that I want to keep around for a while in my "MOVIE" category on any of my Replay units. Then, at night, DVArchive automatically downloads anything in that category, deletes it from the Replay, and stores it on my PC. This works great for me.

This solution also makes the answer to #3 obvious.... you no longer have to explain why you are laying out money to upgrade your DVR... you can go out and get a 250Gb drive for your PC and tell her you need it to do backups (something which I personally never did properly or often enough until I bought a ton of storage for DVArchive!).

[Paulb]

I used an Antec cyclone fan--mostly because it's whisper quiet"
http://www.81-87-columbia-hgts.com/jpgs/cyclone.jpg
and positioned it as below:
http://www.81-87-columbia-hgts.com/jpgs/replay2.jpg
and I did cut a hole in the vent meshing on the top of my Replay. Don't have a good snap but this will give the gist:
http://www.81-87-columbia-hgts.com/jpgs/Replay Top.JPG
Because of the way I have my Replay mounted up under the Tely the hole is not really an aestetic issue:
http://www.81-87-columbia-hgts.com/jpgs/TVReplay.JPG
and I figured it was more important to clear the airways. I've had two 120gigs running without a problem for over two years with this system.

I'm now in the market for a big flat LCD HD screen--to go right where that old color TV is, so I don't know where that's going to leave me vis-à-vis Replay. Eventually Digital Recorders will have to step up to the newer technology

[plyons10]

Don't most OEM fans EXHAUST the air rather than blow INTO and across the unit???

[Paulb]

Well yes but if you look to the lower left on that "guts" photo you'll see the main heatsink for the power supply. That turbo fan forces the air over that heatsink (like a CPU fan) and both disk drives as it bounces off the front of the box and back to the rear of the unit to exit--there are no vent holes in the font of the unit and with the top back on the airflow is tightly channeled

[DarkScreen]

A couple of other reasons to go with a single drive:
Power and Heat.

Turns out that most drives seem to consume about the same power regardless of their storage size. So a single drive consumes about $10/year less in electricity cost (in my area) than two drives.

Perhaps more important is the extra load placed on the power supply and the additional heat generated within the box. Heat is the enemy of reliability. Some of the components in the box already run pretty hot.

BTW, here's another option for mounting two drives using brackets cut from plumbers tape. No drilling or metal bending required, but not the best configuration for thermal management.

http://home.comcast.net/~inventioninferno/Dual-HDD-mounting.jpg

[Creech]

I don't think I would ever go for a dual drive setup. This is the simple math that 2 drives are more likely to have an instance of failure than one.

This is what I did, I took the 80 giggers out of my 5060s and formatted them. Loaded Redhat on them and setup a two drive 160 gig DVA box. Then I put a 200 gig and 250 gig into the 5Ks. I also have a 120 gig instance of DVA running off my TiBook in OS X.

Works like a charm and I have TONS of space.

[Paulb]

Creech,
That sounds brilliant. I knew there was a reason I had to come back here and see S'up.

DVA? Digital Video Archive?

So you network your replay to it's secondary storage and not only don't have to worry about heat and noise in your home theatre environment but you also have direct access to the mpg's from your computer to edit, store, rip, whatever you want with the content!?? Can't beat that with a stick.

I'm not sure I'd be too worried about hardisk failure with 2 drives--although your logic is sound enough. I've got 1.5 terabytes of secondary on my computer spread out over 6 disks and god knows how many partitions. BUT 2 drives can be somewhat problematic for those of us still in the dark ages of Showstopper when it comes to porting media physically from the replay to a computer.

I guess I better see if Amazon is still giving away those 5K's and I need to spend some time at www.dvarchive.org. This is a project I can definitely get into.

Pst...over here:
I like the fact that you're using UNIX and Apple because that's a much more robust controlling environment than MS Windows in any of it's dubious invocations 2k & XP included....But let's not open that can of worms here:p

[davester2]

So icecow...what is wrong with the 250GB Hitachi drive? I was going to buy one of those but ended up with a 160gb instead (It was only $50 and I'm a cheapskate). I hadn't read anything bad about the 250.

[Jeff D]

As always... I'm going to suggest the new single drive too.

As one who's played with more configurations than most, I'll say that this is the most reliable configuration. Many of the reasons other have shared.

200GB drives can be found for less than $100 in many cases.

[WannabeSQ]

I went the route of buying more replays for more room and for conflict management, upgrading 2 of them to 250GB drives, and setting up a DVA server with 8 drives, 4 200s in RAID 5 (600GB usable) and 4 250s in an external firewire case. I have used up about 650GB on my server thusfar, so I got a ways to go, though I am not out of redundant storage, my raid saved me 3 times so far, I should really get a hotspare)

As far as single drive upgrades, there are 400GB drives out there, but they are expensive, the next best thing are the maxtor 300Gb ones with 16mb cache. Not sure if the cache is useful in a replay, but they run about $200 when not on sale, so on sale they would be a steal.

[icecow]

Originally posted by davester2
So icecow...what is wrong with the 250GB Hitachi drive? I was going to buy one of those but ended up with a 160gb instead (It was only $50 and I'm a cheapskate). I hadn't read anything bad about the 250.

Could have swore a dude reported that the 250 hitachis mysteriously don't work replays. Sounded odd, but it appeared he was thorough.

I went searching for the link for you. Didn't find it, but did run into this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4609877&highlight=hitachi#post4609877

This person reports they are happy with a hitachi 250 gig.

Well, if you ever get one please make a thread about what you found :)

[plyons10]

Originally posted by Paulb
DVA? Digital Video Archive?
......I need to spend some time at www.dvarchive.org. This is a project I can definitely get into.


Oh man... you have no idea what you've been missing!!!!!

Welcome to the first reason I would rate ReplayTV the best DVR available!

[Paulb]

I'm telling ya! I take a little sabbatical and the whole damn landscape changes.
Unfortunately sometimes the "real" world impinges on my life as a hardware hacker. It still amazes me that at work, where I have way better technology at my disposal, I covet long lunches and business trips AWAY but at home I'm addicted and wind up far too glued to my technical toys.

It's also worth mentioning that it's totally due to the Robster's that I ever turned on to Replay in the first place. I was a devoted deciple on his JP1 forum when he remarked off-handedly one day, "You know it's with Showstopper/Replay that these customized remotes really come into their own". That chance remark completely changed my entire relationship to broadcast TV viewing. Prior to Replay, and the level of control that it gives, I didn't really think television was worth bothering with that much.

[Paulb]

Well my two 120 Gig Maxies are still chillin’ with that Antec cyclone fan (which is quieter than the drives themselves) even though I’m not sure how much longer I can hold off HD TV with my Replay BUT ANYWAY

Did I just imagine that there was some discussion here about using medical "cool packs"** to control heat transfer from heat producing devices like hardisks..!?? ‘could have sworn I saw it here but I can‘t seem to pull anything up on searches.

**Not the kind you put on aching muscles but the one they use when they transport organs…..

[lizard_boy]

Originally posted by davester2
So icecow...what is wrong with the 250GB Hitachi drive? I was going to buy one of those but ended up with a 160gb instead (It was only $50 and I'm a cheapskate). I hadn't read anything bad about the 250.
These drives work great, I'm running one in one of my 5040's and I've sold quite a few as upgrades with no reported problems.

[gpsjim]

Originally posted by WannabeSQ
... setting up a DVA server with 8 drives, 4 200s in RAID 5 (600GB usable) and 4 250s in an [COLOR=crimson]external firewire case[/COLOR].
So what kind of external firewire case are you using?
I'm looking to add more external disks to my DVA server and I want something better than individual FW/USB2 boxes.

[MIS-Man]

I have to chime in my my opinion. As a user with EIGHT total RTV 5xxx units in production I feel I have a certain level of experience. Of the eight, 3 of them have (or had) double drive setups. While initially they seemed trouble free and I kind of ignored the folks that said "use DVArchive instead" and went forward. Now, one of the unit has run flawlessly for over a year (2 Hitachi 200GB Drives in it) and has not ever rebooted unless it was scheduled for the automated maintenance and it is a VERY active unit. #2 has 2 WD 250GB drives in it - but it has been kind of touch and go and I have lost my shows a total of 3 times - I had both of the drives go out (warranty replacement) and if you did now know yet - when one goes they are all basically done. Very frustrating and the wifer was not very happy. The third one was so unstable I just had to take it back to a single drive. Amazingly - the drives with the troubles as dual had NO problems with single - so in essence it was not a drive to replay issue - it is more of the way that the system is picky about the spinning and response of the drives - and the system quickly hangs if there is an issue (I had a loose power connection and when it got warm it would expand the copper and it would lose connection - drive shut down, ReplayTV locked tight.

I now appreciate the advice I was given - keep the extra HD for DVArchive - and you will get the same effect with an extra level of redundance - the HD's will be on seperate physical devices and as long as you will have wired networking then you will be happy - counting my DVArchive machines I have a total of 10 "Replay Devices" on the network (add 2 XBox clients too and make it12 devices on the grand total!!) and hoj can see my level of equipment.

I will say though - that now that I have this many replay units, I get EXCELLENT customer service from RTV. On each call they say "wow, you have a lot of Replays" and I say - yeah and they are all lifetime, and whateve the request is gets done immediately - I even got a free lifetime activation on a new unit as "appreciation" for my business (I have purchased 25 units in the last year as gifts, etc...).

[Stavs]

Originally posted by icecow
Could have swore a dude reported that the 250 hitachis mysteriously don't work replays. Sounded odd, but it appeared he was thorough.

I went searching for the link for you. Didn't find it, but did run into this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4609877&highlight=hitachi#post4609877

This person reports they are happy with a hitachi 250 gig.

Well, if you ever get one please make a thread about what you found :)

I upgraded one of my units with the Hitachi 250GB and I have not had any problems. My original 5516 had a Maxtor, and that crapped out within 2 months.

Drive was cheap too...bought it from ZipZoomFly. Why add a second drive when you can buy these things so cheap these days.

Stavs

[VisitingLeaf]

These are pretty good they come in 2, 4, and 8 bay cases.

http://fwdepot.com/thestore/product_info.php/products_id/243

I am using 1 of the 4 bay's now.

[Jeff D]

MIS-Man.... you're can now preach to the masses like the rest of us. Those of us that were dishing out that information had done so based off of our own experiences. And at least for myself I can say I really know what I'm doing so it's not like I could have done anything wrong...


Stavs, (not saying you are, but) ignorance is bliss.... I hope the best for your setup, but don't be surprised when it fails.

For those still doubting the problem it's very simple that there are MANY factors that can cause the replay to reset the MPEG partition, and the number of factors is cut by like 75-90% when using a single drive.

[BaysideBas]

Originally posted by Jeff D
For those still doubting the problem it's very simple that there are MANY factors that can cause the replay to reset the MPEG partition, and the number of factors is cut by like 75-90% when using a single drive. I would go out on a limb and up Jeff's estimate to 95%+. In some 25 yearunits of operation with single drive units I've personally only suffered 1 loss of an MPEG partition. Yet we get reports here of multiple losses on dual drive units. You do the math.

[BaumSquad]

I'm getting a lot of reboots that lose me shows. Not a lot of fun. Happened ever since the upgrade to a new 250 gigger. It's just a single drive, though. It's a Maxtor. Anyway, the drive has tested after low level formats, and thorough low level tests to be sound. So I'm not sure if it's just hiccuping or what. I've just now factory reset, and we'll see how that goes. I've gotten up to about half usage, and it's crashed. I often lose the shows, but usually they are still there. Just a quick reconnection to the network properties and DHCP check and it's okay. It's a total pain, though.

Anyway, I may have to look into heat next. It's pretty annoying. After the low level format, it seemed pretty good for weeks, and I was quite excited. But naturally, it took a dump. Of course not only do you lose the shows, but even more annoyingly, you lose all of the scheduleding, so you have to set all of your shows up to record all over again. Bleh. Well, one more time around. Let's hope it works...

[nded]

Originally posted by BaumSquad
I'm getting a lot of reboots that lose me shows. Not a lot of fun. Happened ever since the upgrade to a new 250 gigger. It's just a single drive, though. It's a Maxtor....

What model Maxtor? Any chance you got one of the 16MB Cache models, which are highly documented on the Forum to be incompatible?

[l8er]

There have been a few posts about problems with the Diamondmax 10 line of drives, both 8 MB cache and 16 MB cache versions when used in ReplayTVs.

Anyone have a theory on why these drives have problems in ReplayTVs?

[BaumSquad]

My drive:
Description: Maxtor 250GB L01R250 16MB Buffer Ultra ATA/133 - Retail Hard Drive Kit


Sometimes you just have to laugh when this stuff happens. I guess that's what I get for ignoring the forum for awhile. :) Anyway, in a way I'm happy to know that I have one of the "Bad guys" as it's the nail in the coffin. It means a couple of things...

1. I'm not crazy.
2. My ReplayTV is not crazy.
3. The drive itself is probably not bad, so I don't fear too much about swapping it out for a different drive and popping it into my computer or other location.

Anyway, I can tell you that generally the system dies most often when a command is sent. For example, if you press a button on the remote, it's like russian roullette. You have a 1 in 100 chance that there's a bullet in the chamber and the Replay goes bye bye. Probably less chance than that, but certainly a chance. Anyway, I just lost the thing yesterday again, so I'll yank the drive out this weekend, and probably swap it out with a Hitachi 250 GB that I have in my XBox. Of course that drive has the "Horny house cat" moan, which isn't the most welcome addition to the living room, but what can you do...

Thanks for helping me realize that. I heard the mention of the "Diamond line 10" maxtors, but I didn't really think that was what I had. Anyway, point taken. Chalk another Maxtor Diamond 10 in the incompatible pile

[nded]

Originally posted by BaumSquad
It means a couple of things...

1. I'm not crazy.
2. My ReplayTV is not crazy.
3. The drive itself is probably not bad, so I don't fear too much about swapping it out for a different drive and popping it into my computer or other location.

I'd hold off on committing to #1, the rest seem dead on. :D

[nded]

Originally posted by l8er
Anyone have a theory on why these drives have problems in ReplayTVs?

I'm no brain scientist, but I do have a theory.

My theory is the cache is thrashing. From a theoretical perspective, cache on any Direct Access Storage Device is only effective when the same data is being accessed over and over again. The dynamic nature of the ReplayTV application does not present a practical environment for data that would benefit from the cache. In my experience with larger drives, the cache is dumped/replaced when the cache algorithm in the firmware of the drive perceives that the data in the cache is not "worthy". In the ReaplyTV situation, the drive must be going bonkers constantly dumping/replacing the cache. This dump/replace process is a likely source of the glitches that are seen by the end user.

For you naysayers who would argue that the same problem should present itself with any drive that has cache, keep in mind that while the same thing is happening with drives that have smaller cache (say 2MB), the larger cache has a longer purge/replace cycle, that is more or less directly proportional to the size of the cache at hand. Furthermore, each manufacturer has their own unique firmware algorithms that present different strengths and weaknesses.

A different cache algorithm, or even better, an algorithm written specifically for the ReplayTV, is the only hope for making the problem drive effective. Given the "dead product" status our ReplayTV devices enjoy, it is probably best to simply avoid drives with BIG cache.