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Veritas
11-22-04, 12:14 PM
FYI.
A couple of articles on the New "Versatile Multilayer Disc" technology that could provide 100GB (20 layers at 5GB each) for Red lasers & also doubles 50GB Blue laser media to 100GB.

Red Laser HD Disc?
By Barry Willis


November 22, 2004 — At present, high-definition video is available two ways: via broadcasters or on HD digital VHS tape cassettes. There are no high-def DVDs, despite the hype from the promoters of Blu-ray and HD-DVD, both of which will require disc transports using short-wavelength blue lasers.

New York City–based New Medium Enterprises, Inc. (NME) is promoting another approach, one using multi-layer discs read by traditional red lasers, as are found in standard DVD drives. NME claims that its Reflective Multi-layer Disc (MVD) technology enables discs to store data in excess of 100 gigabytes (GB), more than ten times the capacity of a dual-layer DVD 9, with 8.5GB data capacity.

MVD discs have the same dimensions as standard DVDs, but in theory could have up to 20 reflective layers, according to the company. Each layer could contain up to 5GB of data, making MVD discs an ideal medium for the high-density data needed to deliver true HD video. "100GB on an MVD disc is certainly feasible," the company boasts on its website, but "initial MVD products will be more modest; in the range of 20GB and 30GB." MVD discs could be made in 5GB increments, from 20GB to 100GB according to application and market demand.

MVD is a cost-effective solution to the portable HD video problem, NME claims, because the use of red lasers makes player design easy, including the essential feature of making such products backward compatible with standard DVDs.

Low production cost and resulting low prices for consumers would help the market penetration of MVD "as a natural extension of DVD for HD content." The use of red lasers also solves many engineering problems associated with blue lasers, such as "unfeasible stringent tolerances on disc flatness, numerical apertures, tilt margins, etc," NME asserts, and projects that HD disc players built on the MVD model could retail for $200–250 each, with commercial discs delivering two hours of HD video.

Formed in August 1999, the NME owns intellectual property assets about multi-layer disc technology from MultiDisc in London and TriGm in Belgium, and is pursuing long-term development of MVD prototypes and products.


NME site:
New Medium Enterprises Inc. (NME) brings to the world a truly evolutionary technology that will enable consumers in the near term, to view High Definition quality entertainment at a price equivalent to today's DVD. NME developed a new optical storage disc known as -VMD- which has the capability of storing 100 GB of data and more, as compared to the maximum capacity allowed by the current highest capacity disc -a DVD 9- which bears only 8.5 GB of data, stored on two information layers.

VMD is the acronym for "Versatile Multilayer Disc". It is a next generation optical disc designed for High Definition content: motion pictures, video on demand, sports entertainment, and all video content and data. VMD is precisely the same size and thickness as DVD, however, while DVD technology is limited to a maximum of two data layers on a disc, VMD provides the ability to place up to 20 layers on a single disc with no quality loss in the content stored. Through multi layering, we are able to (dramatically!) increase the disc storage capacity. Each layer adds approximately 5GB's of memory over a standard DVD disc. While storing 100GB on an VMD disc is certainly feasible, the initial VMD products will be more modest; in the range of 20 GB and 30 GB discs & players. We believe that such disc capacities will more than satisfy the HD market for the next several years. VMD technology is not only a high quality solution with unparalleled copyright protection for next generation HD-DVD, but unlike the rival blue-laser format it is also the most cost effective solution in the market place for the reasons described below:

VMD player is based on conventional red lasers and almost in all respects similar to DVD players. In particular VMD player will be naturally backward compatible with DVD, which will enable viewing of HD discs as well as current DVD's.;

VMD manufacturing will be processed at existing DVD facilities with existing DVD equipment. Notwithstanding that the scientific & technological concepts behind VMD are different from DVD, the huge manufacturing infrastructure that was built for DVD will be used for VMD production with only very minor additional accommodations, at an inconsequential cost.

It is thus understandable why the production cost of VMD & player will be comparable with DVD. Low production cost, and in consequence, low prices for consumers will be instrumental in easing the market penetration of VMD as a natural extension of DVD for HD content.

Inherently low prices and utilization of existing DVD manufacturing infrastructure sharply distinguishes VMD from the optical disc technologies based on blue lasers. Currently there are several proposals for high capacity optical discs for the HD market. They promise similar capacities of discs varying from 15 GB, 25, GB, 30 GB and up to 50 GB on one side. As a result of all this hype, it is becoming difficult to understand what the reality of blue laser technologies is and what in practicality is the actual time span for their delivery at commercially feasible prices. However, no one doubts that mass production by technology based on blue laser will positively require a new production infrastructure worldwide in place of DVD production infrastructure. Unfortunately the resulting disc capacities will be about the same as can be achieved with the existing DVD production facilities.

Looking ahead to 2007, if and when the blue laser becomes more reliable, for greater capacities such as VIDEO ON DEMAND (100-200Gbyte), Blue laser Multi layer Discs using VMD technology can be developed along traditional lines. The objective is not to over burden the process for higher and higher density of pits on a disc that impose unfeasible stringent tolerances on disc flatness, numerical apertures, tilt margins etc., but achieving the capacity levels through multi layering. This will enable maintaining the density on each level in reasonable limits, thus providing "soft" tolerances for all the parameters and keeping cheap and simple manufacturing technology. VMD has the capability to enhance Blue Laser through its Multi Layering technology, increasing capacity of its currently proposed 50GB maximal possible capacity to 100GB and higher.

High Definition (HD) content is best viewed on modern high resolution displays: plasma TV's and big size liquid crystal computer displays. The ultimate HD quality is achieved with high resolution projectors, such as is used in Digital Cinema theaters, and more and more frequently at home with a big white screen hanging on a wall, or a white wall itself serving as a screen. VMD is very similar to familiar DVD. But the maximal DVD capacity is limited to 8.5 GB. It only contains sufficient storage capacity to store a movie in Standard Definition format, but not High Definition format.

In order to comprehend the difference between Standard Definition and High Definition Video formats one must consider the following: By Standard Definition format one usually refers to a video quality which is equivalent to standard TV screens. This is about the quality of digital DVD signal, plus or minus. The HD content provides at least several times higher information bit rate arriving at TV displays, and accordingly much higher quality. One must really view the HD images on the screen to understand that HDTV is a new universe in home entertainment.

All optical discs in the market, such CD's and DVD's are reflective. In a certain sense so is VMD. There is nothing extraordinary about being reflective. However, achieving multi layering capabilities is quite substantial in both depth and scope. There is general awareness by the giant players in the market place that the future of optical storage is ultimately in multi layer carriers. Indeed, how much can be placed on one layer? Even now it is a marvel of human creation to have as much capacity as blue laser discs are promising. But it is of prime importance to understand that those levels are achieved through tremendous complexities that impose unfeasible stringent tolerances on disc flatness, numerical apertures, tilt margins etc., which will ultimately lead to high consumer prices.

Is it not wiser to achieve the capacity levels through multi layering and gain substantial capacity per disc while keeping the production technology simple? And looking ahead in the future when blue laser technologies become available and transparent, likewise to apply the same principles to build giant capacity blue laser discs?

Multi Layering is the core technology of NME, it is a technology in which we are in the forefront of the industry and will aim to be a market leader in this exciting industry.

DaViD Boulet
11-22-04, 03:11 PM
all very interesting...

though at this point with so much of the industry wrapped up in their investment in bluRay and HD-DVD technology...I doubt this will become an adopted format.

Another key issue is data *bandwidth*...not just absolute storage capacity. For high-quality HD images and high-resolution audio (like 24/96 multi-channel), you need to have about 20-30 mbps at your disposal. DVD drives using standard red-lasers would have to spin at double and tripple thier current speeds to do this...not sure if that would be an issue or not but just mentioning.

I like the last point about combining such multi-layer technology with blue-laser to increase capcity even more.

Hey, what ever happened to FMD?

-dave

Veritas
11-23-04, 10:24 AM
If in fact new BDM (Blu-Ray) &/or HD-DVD incorporate red lasers for backward compatibility then perhaps VMD technolgy could provide a universal player that could read/record both formats - I.E. 1. BMD/VMD & VMD red laser, or 2. HD-DVD/VMD & VMD red laser.

Perhaps things are too far along for VMD technology to make much of a inroad now...but you never know, if a VMD "universal player" came to market, that might well be accepted by consumers.

And with the extemely small pit size of both Blue laser formats, skipping due to damage/dust/etc over the life of the disks might favor the more "forgiving/field proven" red laser.

For more detailed info on NME corporation and their VMD technology, the website is:

http://www.nmen.net/1.html

Tryg
11-23-04, 10:52 AM
we dont need no stinking lasers!

by the time this stuff finally gets to the consumer they'll have flash memory cards that do 100 gigs

Veritas
11-23-04, 12:13 PM
Tryg, et. al.
"we dont need no stinking lasers!"

Actually, I don't favor of any media format. What we need is an end to the "tyranny of media" and the endless format wars resulting in us having to have duplicate versions of the same content/performance (VHS/DVD/HD DVD, or vinyl/CD/SACD/DVD-A) on different media.

To climb up on on my soapbox yet again. "We" need to move to a "content distribution" model whereby the consumer owns/leases the rights to specific content/performances with formats/codecs/etc handled "behind the scenes" by competing streaming content providers.

Consumers would just subscribe to A/V content streaming delivery services that will provide sufficient distribution bandwidth/throughput to our locally owned/leased(from content providers?) reader/player "boxes" providing seemless mobile & home output - perhaps with local "pooling" capability of the streamed content on standard Hard disk/USB devices/ flash storage/etc for non realtime use.

Consumers owning or leasing specific content/performances and would no longer be bound to ever changing media formats/codecs/etc. Subcription charges & competition would provide content providers both the incentive and funds to continually develop new & better versions our individually owned/leased content libraries. A certain small percentage of the subscription fees could also fund royalties to the orginal performers too; thus mutually benefiting both the performer and the consumer - a win-win scenario I think that might even lessen the need for more odious/draconian DRM restrictions coming otherwise.

We just gotta get around having pay per view/play cost forced on us. At least this is my dream scenario...

rogo
11-24-04, 02:19 AM
NME = Never Marketed Ever

6volt
01-20-05, 09:45 PM
Yeah, maybe streaming is the way to do it. Just pays yours moneys and be done with it.

I have a little NME stock (NMEN symbol) and what they are pitching sounds better than the 2 popular alternatives although the fluorescent disc sounded the coolest.

Probably the biggest metric is that Sony is going to jam Blu-ray down everyones throat. The fact that it is "delicate" is perfect for Sony.

AnthonyP
01-21-05, 09:43 AM
Veritas: I disagree,

1) movies I want to rent, I can rent at the video store, movies I want to buy, <b>I want to buy</B>.

2) what happens with home movies, yes you tape them and if you are like everyone else you never even saw what you taped for most of them, but there still needs to be a physical place for them

3) what happens with older/ less popular movies. Even if "broadcasters" only need one copy of each movie how soon will it be before "this movie is not downloaded enough, let's delete it to save on storage space."


as for the original topic (NME) I think too little too late

AnthonyP
01-21-05, 10:09 AM
Actually, I don't favor of any media format. What we need is an end to the "tyranny of media" and the endless format wars resulting in us having to have duplicate versions of the same content/performance

Consumers owning or leasing specific content/performances and would no longer be bound to ever changing media formats/codecs/etc. Subcription charges & competition would provide content providers both the incentive and funds to continually develop new & better versions our individually owned/leased content libraries.

rofl

I love the way you think that there will be no more format wars. I also love that you contradict yourself when you say that there will not be a need for upgrades but that there will be new and better versions.

Do you think if you have a MPEG2 streamer that it will magically turn into an MPEG4 or VC-1 box? on the otherhand isn't there a format war for the next codec format (MPEG4, VC-1) wouldn't (streaming or not) the same thing happen in the future? does your cable/sat company offer different boxes (digital/analog, HD/SD.....)

Veritas
01-21-05, 12:43 PM
AnthonyP,
BTW, it's ROFL...unless perhaps you meant by "rofl", that it wasn't all that funny ;-)

I love the way you think that there will be no more format wars. I also love that you contradict yourself when you say that there will not be a need for upgrades but that there will be new and better versions.

I did not say, or imply, that there would " no more format wars"...that was your inference. I'm not that naive. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was that there will be upgrades and competition on new formats/codecs etc., BUT, that these would be done by the streaming content provider services.

So, consumers would simply vote their subscripton $s to whomever had the best service. It be akin to how the current Serious vs XM radio competion is going, only for both Audio & Video( & both are working on video now).

My main point was that consumers would no longer have to buy/store/etc multiple copies of the same content/performance, I.E. VHS, DVD, LD, etc versions of "Gone With the Wind", etc.

Do you think if you have a MPEG2 streamer that it will magically turn into an MPEG4 or VC-1 box? on the otherhand isn't there a format war for the next codec format (MPEG4, VC-1) wouldn't (streaming or not) the same thing happen in the future? does your cable/sat company offer different boxes (digital/analog, HD/SD.....)

Like the current Serious and XM radio battle, "quality competition" will serve to differentiate competing content providers. Consumers will simply vote their preference with their subscription $s...which would fund new improvements in codecs, bandwidth, etc. The Local reception "boxes" would hopefully be much like it is now with cell phones/STBs/satellite radio devices; with the hardware "boxes" either free, or available at substantial discount...I.E. subsidized by content providers...just as happens now in these arenas. These would be, as you called them, the "physical place for them"..probably hard disk based devices at first - hopefully also with robust wireless distribution capablities too (WIMAX/etc).

I hope this clarifies my position on this...

rogo
01-21-05, 01:59 PM
did someone literally just correct someone else for using rofl instead of ROFL?

talk about a distinction without a difference.

imho, it matters not whether people are rofl-ing, ROLF-ING, ROFLMAO-ing, or simply lol-ing. the point is well conveyed and since none of these are words, i think strict grammatical rules need apply not. in fact, it's okay to selectively use many variants of these even while splitting infinitives if typing on a forum you are.

thinks me.

AnthonyP
01-21-05, 02:07 PM
I still disagree, and this is why

there are tons of people watching a tape (or DVD) that don't care what the next format will be. It is not the existence of the war that has us discussing the next winner but our compulsiveness. Do you think that if we were in a world as you describe that we would not be here arguing the merits of today's format compared to the next two future format? do you think we won't be here saying I hope my provider will go with xyz instead of abc because n1, n2,n3 make it better? Do you think we won't say I like my provider, but they are not planning to support format xyz and i want to know if it is worth changing to the other provider.

The Local reception "boxes" would hopefully be much like it is now with cell phones/STBs/satellite radio devices; with the hardware "boxes" either free, or available at substantial discount

don't know, I would guess that the cheap box might be that way, but I would guess that sooner or latter there will be different levels do you want the SD box, the HD box, the one with composite output....... does the box/movie give you access for a day, hour or month.....

Veritas
01-21-05, 02:19 PM
rogo,
Good God...I can't believe this. Did you happen to notice the ";-)" at the end of that sentence? It was meant as a humorous statement - a self deprecating one at that...jeeez..talk about spliting hairs. Oh well, the slings and arrows still do fly...

Getting back to actual subject at hand...any cogent thoughts/opinions of the actual content/point of my post?

Cheers
PS from your forum prose/writing style, you must be an E E Cummings fan ;-)?

Veritas
01-21-05, 02:49 PM
AnthonyP,

I really do appreaciate your thoughts/feedback.

Do you think we won't say I like my provider, but they are not planning to support format xyz and i want to know if it is worth changing to the other provider.

That's my point exactly! There will still be competition - which is most desirable so as to engender continual product/service improvements. E.G Look at how many people switch back and forth between dif cellular carriers, or between Dish and DirecTV/etc. Hopefully, it will be the same with the new streaming content services. Just no continuing stream of too soon outdated physical media to futz with!

does the box/movie give you access for a day, hour or month.....

Imagine "Frankenstein'ing" XM Radios "medialess" business model for content distibution, & combining it with a Netflix type of subscritpion service fees:"all you can eat", or 3 movies at time , or 10, etc at dif price points. Content would be stored locally (HD/etc), and freely moveable/routable (wirelessly), to any capable device you have...House unit, car/mobile unit, PDA unit etc.

Some XM & Serious devices let you record the streamed content (though limited) today. If these content services are priced right (studios/etc might ally with dif providers...or actually be the providers themselves directly) then perhaps even DMR might not be such a problem as it is today since they should have steady stream of subscripton income...but undoubtedly there'll be some form of DRM....life's not perfect afterall...

AnthonyP
01-21-05, 02:52 PM
Getting back to actua lsubjectr at hand...any cogent thoughts/opinions of the actual content/point of my post?

I think it might happen (don't forget the studios might go against it), but like I said, I think that even if it does happen it will be only one of the options. I think it might replace rental places, but people still like owning movies, and you see more and more places everyday where you can buy a movie. And even if you could download and keep a movie for ever people would not trust a hard disk, one small hick and there goes your 3000 movie collection

AnthonyP
01-21-05, 03:01 PM
E.G Look at how many people switch back and forth between dif cellular carriers, or between Dish and DirecTV/etc

don't know how it is where you are, but honestly don't know many people that switch back and forth. The only guy I know that changed Sat companies did it because he started working for the competition and so gave away his old disk because it would not look good if he used the competitions product.

On the other hand I never took what you said as no competition. I am still not enamoured with the idea and don't think it will bring an end to format wars like you said in he beginning

Veritas
01-21-05, 03:09 PM
AnthonyP,

but people still like owning movies

Yeah some people will probably take some time to get used to no physical content media. But do people like owning/storing/caring for multiple copies of the same movie/etc? What did you do with all your VHS movies? Did you repalce any with DVD copies, or transfer some to DVD ( a real pain - don't get me started on the topic current DVD recorders)? What'll you do when HD DVD versions are available - do all this again? I think people will warm rapidly to content streaming instead.

And even if you could download and keep a movie for ever people would not trust a hard disk, one small hick and there goes your 3000 movie collection

That's the beauty of the subscription service for content...your HD dies...so what? Your monthly content subscription provider has them neatly on hand - just replace your HD, and you content subscripiton will allow you to simply download them again as needed/desired. No more wasting space storing media, or having to buy replacement media for the DVD/CD/game/etc your dog/child ate/destroyed.

PS Not many Dish vs DirecTV switchers in your neck of the woods? Check out the AVS HDTV hardware forum. "Subscriber churn" is one of the Satellite industries biggest problems.

AnthonyP
01-21-05, 03:40 PM
But do people like owning/storing/caring for multiple copies of the same movie/etc?

some do

What did you do with all your VHS movies?Did you repalce any with DVD copies, or transfer some to DVD

home movies, some of them yes, bought movies, bought the higher quality movie on DVD (for those that I cared)

let's say you can dl and keep a movie for ever on your hard disk and it is a movie you want to keep, if they reincode it in a better format wouldn't you want to get the better format? if you do, wouldn't you need to buy it again and wouldn't you need to dl the new version?

I don't see the difference, yes you can delete the old version, but you can just as easily throw the DVD, VHS... away.

on the other hand if they are use once movies you dl, what is the difference between renting it at the video rental place. I could have rented the VHS a few years ago and rent the DVD today and in a couple of years rent the BR version, no problem

That's the beauty of the subscription service for content...your HD dies...so what? Your monthly content subscription provider has them neatly on hand - just replace your HD, and you content subscription will allow you to simply download them again as needed/desired

that I doubt, even if you are right and they give you a new player, there is no way they will let you redownload all the movies for nothing. If you have a service of 3 movies a month (or even a day) they won't say, dl all 3000 or 300 of them. There will need to be a limiting service or it would be extremely expensive a month. I don't use netflix, but if nothing else the post is a limiting factor.

AnthonyP
01-21-05, 03:42 PM
PS if you think the service would be

-unlimited dl
-unlimited playback times
and
-unlimited distribution

that the studios will allow it.

Veritas
01-21-05, 04:28 PM
AnthonyP,

.If you have a service of 3 movies a month (or even a day) they won't say, dl all 3000 or 300 of them. There will need to be a limiting service or it would be extremely expensive a month

I guess I haven't been clear enough on the subscription process methodology I envision. Consumers will probably get continual programmed/"canned" 24x7 programing (ala DirecTV, XM radio, etc).

BUT, subscriptions (with perhaps some additional 1 time, or simply via a higher monthly subscription fee for "X" nbr of on demand downloads) would also allow/provide "personal libraries" of specific content that can be purchased/leased as they are newly released (as content only - not media); or even older ones you like and want to have available/streamed on demand. The subscription fee covers:

1. The cost of the content provider's storage and delivery
2. Providing canned 24x7 programming
3. Access to your own library of purchased/leased content on demand (or simply dif payment plans ala Netflix for "X" nbr of on demand content/performances per month/etc as desired - whatever you want and is available)
4. Plus technology updates (new codecs/etc), and subsidized device costs.

Basically, this is very similar to what happening now. One can get PPV movies from Satellite services along with their normal "canned" programming. To answer your "So Studios/content providers will allow it" question - Yes, with great relish as they can/will make tons of money doing this!

rogo
01-21-05, 05:07 PM
Veritas, you got that my post was tongue in cheek and then got upset about it?

Oy!

:)

Veritas
01-22-05, 11:49 AM
rogo,
Oy! upset me - no way. In fact, I enjoyed your post(s). But don't you have any thoughts on a new "medialess" A/V paradigm?

Cheers