New Sony 46" LCD

[cremona]

Greeting from Japan.

Decided to browse the giant electronic store Yodobashi after dinner last night to search for high-end audio accessories. Saw the new Sony 46" LCD panel with a list price north of $10k (but not by much), the PQ was stunning to be the least.

This is the first time I am impressed by a LCD panel. I am a NEC plasma owner and always find LCD to have irritating back light that lighten color spectrum and lacks that naturalness of PDP. This Sony redefines LCD PQ, color has all shades of tones and almost film like. Sony claimed tri-illumination, 3 LCD (RGB) for each pixel (doesn't they all do?). They showed a lot of outdoor scenes, PQ was breathtaking. Spec at 1080P though Japan does not support that standard (nor 1080i).

Not sure if this thing has hit the shore yet, but seeing is believing and I will want one when the price drops.

[CraiginNJ]

Sounds promising. I was hoping the new Sony Qualia 005 might have advantages smoothing out images (even standard TV signals) in addition to LED backlighting and full HD resolution. Sounds like it'll be worth the wait for me.

Craig

[paris_tn]

Where is any pics or reviews of these and do you think they can stand up as good as plasma and not have the streaking downfalls?

[paris_tn]

I saw this and went and read it.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0%2Caid%2C117485%2C00.asp

An article on it. I would love to see pictures on it and how much it weighs, do lcd tv's have picture in picture, split screen, freeze, instant replay, any of these things? I had an old 32" crt Sony that had all this and much more and loved it. It was so heavy but a great picture. This is great also hearing not much blurring and the colors great.

[cremona]

I grabbed a brochure while I was there.

46" weighs 59 Kg, does not mention if it has PIP or split screen (but then it's in Japanese and I can only pick out the Konji and English part).

The SDE is so minimal I could barely see it, almost film like.

[R Harkness]

Wow. Very exciting. If the quality of Sony's smaller LCDs are retained in that big model it must have a hell of a picture. I look forward to seeing it.

[mangopony]

Seems the next several years will be very exciting in this 'display world'. Just another reason I am glad I spent less than $2500 on my EDTV display. In 3-4 years may want one of these new babies. And prices will continue to drop the next few years.

[overtime]

In 3 or 4 years I probably won't care what I spent on my TV today... :rolleyes:

Someone could just as easily say "Hey, I'm glad I didn't buy an ED in 2004 because in 2009 I was able to pick up a 42" ED for $200 and my 80" LCD for $1800 AND I still have my old 32" CRT which served me well from 2002 to 2009. Did you know that at 12' away my CRT looks better than my ED?" ;)

overtime

[PanamaMike]

Do the large Sony flat panel LCDs use Xbrite? These are the only LCDs I would liken to CRT.

[afiggatt]

Any one able to extract the power consumption specs for the Sony from the Japanese language or other websites? IIRC, in an earlier thread on the LCD backlight technology, that the early gen models were likely to be power hogs.

[wojtek]

from Asahi Shimbun 2 days ago.

Looks like a bit wider distribution for Qualia 005, but it is still a panel assembled by hand. Wow.

http://www.asahi.com/english/business/TKY200411230111.html

Sony sets sights on big spenders
The Asahi Shimbun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Refusing to succumb to discounting pressures, Sony Corp. has started selling handmade flat-panel TVs, including one priced at more than 1 million yen.

The blue-ribbon product launch is part of the company's efforts to re-establish its faltering consumer electronics brand.

Two liquid crystal display TVs are the latest additions to Sony's top-of-the-line Qualia series, one created in June 2003 under the initiative of Chairman Nobuyuki Idei.

Until now, sales of Qualia products, which include 400,000-yen digital cameras and 2.5 million-yen projectors, have been limited to the company's two directly run outlets.

The Qualia 005 TVs, however, are getting wider distribution. The elite goggle boxes hit store shelves at hundreds of electronics retailers nationwide over the weekend.

The 40-inch and 46-inch models sell for 840,000 yen and 1.1 million yen, respectively.

This is more than just another product launch for Sony. The success-or failure-of its tony televisions could point to the future of one of the best known brands in the electronics industry.

Takashi Aoki, general manager of the Qualia Business Center's planning department, says volume sales of the LCD TVs mark the ``second stage'' of the Qualia line.

He says the company expects that greater exposure of the Qualia name will help resurrect the Sony brand as a whole.

The brand is not as influential as it once was, and the days are long gone when the company could rely on its name alone to set premium price tags.

Sony's operating profit margin, or the ratio of operating profits against revenues, stood at 2.5 percent in the April-September period, reflecting the cut-throat price competition in the industry.

Not everyone is convinced that heading upmarket is the right strategy.

``I wonder how many people will shell out 1 million yen on a TV set at a time when consumers are looking for lower prices,'' says an executive at a rival electronics manufacturer.

Sony officials, however, say that quality counts more than quantity.

Customers have to pre-order most of the seven existing Qualia products, and sales are emphatically low-volume-several hundred units, in the case of digital cameras.

``We are happy if each Qualia product impresses people who are looking for the finest in that product category,'' Aoki says.

Sony spent three years developing the Qualia 005 models, the world's first consumer-use LCD TVs that use light-emitting diodes as backlights. Company officials say LEDs can produce more natural hues than conventional fluorescent backlights.

The LEDs, control units and other key components are developed from scratch.

A group of 30 specially trained workers is assembling the TVs by hand at a Sony factory in Ichinomiya, Aichi Prefecture. The company is targeting monthly production of 2,000 units.(IHT/Asahi: November 23,2004)

[ConceptVBS]

The panel I believe is made by a Taiwanese company.

[amirm]

As I reported in another thread, I too saw the 46 and 40" units at Yodobashi last week. Indeed, they looked stunning but much of this had to do with the superb HD feed and colorful and bright images. All other sets with the exception of Panasonic 65" where being fed off-air BS digital of much lower quality which made these two units stand out by far. But in one camera pan, the 40" at least, blurred the image really bad which tells me it has slow response time (unless it was in the encoding).

Still, this display is worth a look if it improves the color gamut to better match NTSC compared to current LCDs that fall short. While these units ran very cool, a smaller set that I saw elsewhere ran so hot you could not touch the panel. I am told that LED backlight is less efficient than fluorescent bulbs. Not sure many people care about this but figured I note it anyway.

The 65" Panasonic Plasma, was also stunning, being fed really high bit rate (25 Mbit/sec) MPEG-2 video. This one is also worth a serious look when it hits the shelves here.

Amir

[rogo]

"IMO, they easily surpass plasma in terms of black levels, resolution, and contrast"

You've seen the new 46? No LCD to date has the black level or sequential contrast of a good plasma -- based on objective measurement. And motion blurring is clearly not a non-issue.

-----------------------

"The panel I believe is made by a Taiwanese company."

Really? I kind of doubt that. I don't believe AUO or CMO is shipping their 46 and that CPT has only a 47. I just assumed this was the Samsung panel -- which is known to exist.

Now, I could be wrong because given the tiny quantities on the Sony, it could be a panel that isn't really regularly available.

But given that Sony likely ordered these panels stripped from the mfr. and that Samsung has both a 40 and 46, I just assumed they were Samsung panels.

Mark

[darrellt]

OH man! Now I know I have been researching too much. I even understood what you were referring to! AUO! CMO! What a forum to learn on.

[rogo]

For those who don't know, AUO and CMO are two of the largest LCD panel makers in Taiwan and among the top 5 globally. They are currently lagging the world's two largest panel makers -- LG. Philips and Samsung -- in terms of having state-of-the-art gear.

[rick2900]

dose anyone knows when the 46 inch lcd sony tv is comming to the usa and price

[CraiginNJ]

Latest news I saw said USA in spring 2005. What would that mean? April? May?

Price may be higher than previously thought -- this reference says $12k, but that could be full list price showing the impact of the weakening exchange rate for $ vs. yen.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2110469/

[FONT=times]Craig[/FONT]

[CraiginNJ]

Well, it's March, and I haven't heard any specific news about when the Qualia 005 will be available in USA. Have you? I saw a posting mentioning July, so maybe they are pushing it off until this summer instead of this spring?

FWIW, here's an article about the LED backlighting.
http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/000503

Craig in NJ

[wojtek]

Craig - I was told June when I inquired under a Sony Qualia phone number. FWIW.

[BGD]

Originally posted by CraiginNJ
FWIW, here's an article about the LED backlighting.
http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/000503

Craig in NJ Very informative and up to date article, though I knew the basics already. Just goes to show that the future of LCD is very bright despite the OLED/SED/etc hype...

[MAB]

Is there any indication that smaller size 26", 32" LCDs will use LEDs in 2005 from Sony or maybe Sharp?

[rogo]

Not in 2005, no. It's so far a premium feature for the high end.

There will be trickle down, but I doubt this year.

[CraiginNJ]

FYI, the 3/24/2005 ZDnet article at
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-5632510.html
says the Qualia 005 is due this Spring, but it reports the price is now "about $15,000" --- groan -- I thought it started at $10k, then $12k and now it's $15k? Hey! This is going the wrong direction! $15k has reached the level of insanity -- I don't think I want to be that insane.

Also, the article suggests there may be so much heat from the LED backlights that fans may be required. (I don't like the idea of fan noise if it can be avoided.)

Craig in NJ

[markrubin]

also we have heard that the Qualia 005 will not accept 1080P directly, much like the Sharp LC-45 :(

[rogo]

The Sony is a power hog. I wouldn't be a little surprised to learn it needed fans.

Not a very exciting product to me for many reasons even though it should look great. Too small, too pricey, no LCD energy efficieny = failure to reach the right spot on the price / value curve.

[zglass2]

Originally posted by rogo
The Sony is a power hog. I wouldn't be a little surprised to learn it needed fans.

Not a very exciting product to me for many reasons even though it should look great. Too small, too pricey, no LCD energy efficieny = failure to reach the right spot on the price / value curve.

After reading rave reviews from CES, I was going to order it at 10K. Have the Sony KDE50XBR950 and am very impressed with their PDP, but at 15K - heat/fans - no 1080P input -- FORGETABOUTIT.

I wonder who they plan to sell this product to - at 15K - or is it just a "whet your interest" type? Maybe this is the precursor to a cheaper/more featured item on the drawing board.

[robnorm]

Not sure if this has already been posted, but I am attaching a file
with a translation of the specs from the Qualia 005 Japanese site.

Attached another translation of the Qualia 005 Japanese web page.

These were translated with the Alatavista Babelfish translater, and
they are current.

I would post URLs but I haven't earned that right yet.

[markrubin]

Thanks for the link

so the max input is 1125i (1080i US)

power consumption is 612 watts panel+ 76w AVC box

and there is a 40 inch KDX40Q005 (1366x768) model that draws 498 watts+76w AVC box

[CraiginNJ]

Am I reading that spec sheet .pdf correctly? It says the retail price of the Sony 005 45" model is 1.1 million yen (and a little less before taxes). At today's exchange rate of about 107.7 yen per dollar, that's about $10,000. So why are we seeing news articles mention US prices as high as $15k?

Is this an old spec sheet? Are there high tariffs on Sony's TV imports to the USA? I think they'd be hard-pressed to price it much higher than the Tokyo price + the price of shipping & tariffs from Tokyo.

Craig in NJ

[rogo]

" power consumption is 612 watts panel"

Oh my friggin' stars!

They should just rename it the Opecia!

[browntiger]

May be it is just me, but $15k MSRP is absurd...

I mean you could buy 50" plasma and save $$$ to buy
same LCD next year. ( The way prices are going )

And this would let Sony workout bugs in this panel.


I mean with this price model they have about few hundred
target customers?


BTW: My sony ES cr@p is going out of the door this year,
and will not be replaced by another Sony ever again.

[markrubin]

612 watts as compared to 260w for the Sharp LC-45 (+66w for the AVC box): that is a lot of power for a 46" display:

more than the Fujitsu P63 plasma which is approx 345 watts max

and you can bet the Sony will have fans that you will notice

My guess is the Sony street price will start at around $10k: still double the Sharp

[rogo]

So totally uninteresting. I mean who even cares how good the picture is. It won't be that much better, it will be that much more expensive, and it's a horrible product to support.

[CraiginNJ]

Originally posted by rogo
So totally uninteresting. I mean who even cares how good the picture is. It won't be that much better, it will be that much more expensive, and it's a horrible product to support.

Where did that comment come from? Of course a lot of people do care about the picture quality, and many of those don't care as much about other attributes. It does seem the 005 will be better than other LCD's and many people would want one at $10k (though very few if anyone at $15k).

I don't understand where your "horrible to support" comment comes from. There must be something you are thinking that you aren't saying.

Craig in NJ

[junekwan]

SONY 46" Qualia 005 and Sharp 45" Aquos
Which one has better Picture Quality?

[rogo]

I think you totally miss my point Craig. Part of that is my fault, so let me elaborate:

(1) There is no evidence this display will be leaps and bounds above existing choices. I am sick and tired of people (not directed at you) anointing everything that isn't for sale as superior to everything that is for sale. Every time something new has arrived, its warts have become apparent over time. This display is no exception.

(2) Even if it is great -- and it might be great -- it will be no more than a little greater than the competition. Especially given the small display size. Few of us sit and watch TV often from just a few feet. Once we are at a typical 8-15 feet away from the display (how'd I get that? real measurements in real homes), a 46-inch display is not for the most critical viewing as a general rule. I currently watch a 37-inch display from 7 feet and you'll rarely finding me picking nits about HD quality these days because I'm incapable of seeing all that's there from where I sit.

(3) You proved my point. It ain't worth $15K, you say. You do say it's worth $10K, maybe. I say it ain't because I think competing 45-inch and 46-inch displays will be thousands less by the end of summer and the start of prime TV shopping... This is the Fujitsu plasma vs. commercial Panasonic all over again. What increment of cost can be justified? 10% more? 50% more? What if there's a BenQ at $5000 that's good and a Samsung at $6500 with a Sharp and the Sony at $10,000?

(4) Horrible to support --> In my opinion, buying a product that uses excessive amounts of power for such a limited reason -- it's got a marginally better picture quality than something else -- doesn't cut it anymore. Oil prices are going through the roof. This country runs a foreign policy based on securing the energy we need rather than doing what is right (no this isn't meant as a political debate, but while I believe we often have good intentions, it's naive beyond belief to fail to understand the link between what we do and our attempting to get cheap energy).

Read those power consumption numbers again. You want to drive a Hummer? Fine. But I'll call you "planet killer." It's time more people stand up and demand at least reasonably energy-efficient devices. Appliances have begun to be revolutionized by this. Cars are apparently on the cusp of something similar -- witness the hybrid mania. Electronics need the same kind of treatment.

People talk about how conserving energy would somehow devastate the American way of life. The reality is we could engage in 99% of the activities we currently perform with 80% of the energy if we would just use better tools. The Sony != a better tool

[CraiginNJ]

Thanks for elaborating, Rogo. Now I understand you.

FWIW, to me the improvement isn't about being a lot better, but simply about being the first flat panel (LCD or plasma) that seems likely to meet the minimum of what I'd want. (If it's too expensive, has noisy fans, or isn't up to my minimum expectations, I'd have to fall back to a contingency plan to tide me over for a couple of years.)

I had assumed by "support" you were referring to reliability and customer service. I'm relieved to see you really meant the KWH needed to run it.

I would suppose, given it comes from Japan (one of the most energy-conversation aware countries in the world), they simply had no choice right now but to focus first on getting the picture performance & quality right. I don't begrudge them that right now as long as it doesn't otherwise interfere with the enjoyment (like noisy fans could do).

Craig in NJ

[rogo]

They could've not built this at all until LED efficiency improved sufficiently.

But given this is a Qualia piece, it's not really supposed to sell many units anyway.

I'm curious what the Samsung's power consumption is supposed to be.

[CraiginNJ]

FYI - Qualia 005 in UK in autumn:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/story/0,3605,1458562,00.html

[INeedABreak]

The specs say that the 46" model uses over 550 watts of power! Not very efficient these new SED panel tv's.

[CraiginNJ]

I believe the Qualia 005 is a LED-backlit LCD, not SED.

Yes, this first generation LED-backlighting system isn't efficient, which may imply heat & fan noise. Otherwise efficiency probably isn't too important to people who might buy a TV in the $10k-$15k price range. Just look at all the SUV's on the road for proof that efficiency isn't a priority to most Americans.

[markrubin]

please limit your discussions to the Sony LCD

Thanks

[Ken Ross]

Any update as to when these will be out?

[CraiginNJ]

I thought they were available already in Japan.

I've seen no recent new reference to a date for North America.

I did see this vague reference to "autumn" for the UK:
http://techdigestuk.typepad.com/tech_digest/2005/04/sony_to_being_p.html or
http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/gadgets/story/0,12452,1458625,00.html

FWIW, it is infuriatingly frustrating that Sony is silent on when availability will begin. I assume this means they are having trouble making more than limited quantities or are seeing high defect rates. (People paying $10,000 in Japan, and the very few people in willing to pay the rumored $12,000-$15,000 in USA, probably won't tolerate noticable defects.)

Craig in NJ