View Full Version : Looking forward to Collateral
Great movie, and 75% of it was shot with HD cameras instead of film. Should be a great DVD - 2 disc with DTS. I saw it in DLP Cinema and the mis-en-scene was really unique with the light night sky and the grainy appearance. Mann really captured the look of LA at night.
Cool article - http://millimeter.com/mag/video_building_collateral/index.html
Toeside
11-29-04, 08:57 PM
I'm toying with the idea of buying this also. I didn't realize that it was shot with HD Cameras. If I don't buy it, I'm definitely renting it.
I'm looking forward to renting as I missed both 1st and 2nd run theatrical showings. BTW, it appeared (to me) to be shot on video by the look of the trailer.
Robert Clark
11-29-04, 09:29 PM
This was a terrific film. I'll be buying this one when it comes out.
So, has anybody watched it yet? how is the DVD? Where are the reviews?Thanks.
Kid Red
12-14-04, 06:10 PM
So the movie is a buyer or rental? The previews look good, tho I'm just not sure if it's worth owning. Kinda like Man On Fire to me, a great movie, just not sure it's worth owning.
slick316
12-14-04, 06:49 PM
i saw the movie in the theaters, thought it was entertaining so i picked it up on DVD today. just finished watching it.
the picture is great, though most of the recent movies i have bought all seem to look great to me.
the camera usage was unique. i liked how the camera was amatuer looking sometimes, it gave the movie a whole new dimension (basically its different from the norm).
the sound was my only complaint. seemed like most of the sound was coming from the front, hardly any surround used. thats just me, using the DTS track.
overall i liked the movie and am glad i bought it even though the sound wasnt as i thought it would be.
Originally posted by slick316
the sound was my only complaint. seemed like most of the sound was coming from the front, hardly any surround used. thats just me, using the DTS track.
overall i liked the movie and am glad i bought it even though the sound wasnt as i thought it would be.
did you do any DD to DTS comparisons? Just curious, I rented it myself last night and will be watching it soon. :)
I pre-ordered this one, which is rare lately. I think this was a very good story, well told. But the main thing that this movie had going for it--which shocked me at first--was Jamie Foxx's acting talent. I had no idea before I saw this movie that he was such a fine actor. I guess with "Ray" also coming out right after this one, people have taken notice of this fact. I had somehow always considered him a comic actor like the Wayans brothers; that is, talented but not likely to carry a dramatic movie as leading man. It was kind of like watching Jim Carrey in "The Truman Show."
FoxyMulder
12-15-04, 09:18 AM
Bought this film last week because i like Cruise and Manns work and i saw it last thursday.
I thought it was ok but it lacked any real development of the Cruise character and it just felt a little bit predictable in the route it took, as with all Mann films it was extremely well shot and acted but i just felt it was missing something which makes an average film into a really good film, this film was just average.
Now as everyone who reads these forums might know i love to get my films with a DTS track. The DTS track had decent surround use and low level bass but the dialogue center channel was weak compared directly to the Dolby track, the dialogue using the Dolby track was much better, with DTS engaged the dialogue sounded strangled and harder to hear and make out. I have just watched Return of the King Extended Edition using DTS for the 3rd time ( big fan ) and it sounds clear and amazingly good so it isn't my equipment and it must be the actual disc itself.
inky blacks
12-15-04, 12:27 PM
I rented the DVD and thought it looked terrible, thin, skeletal, and lacking in detail. It was like a sketch of the scenes with half the information missing. I didn't like the last Star Wars movie either for the same reason, although Collateral was much worse.
As I have said, if they are going to shoot movies with digital cameras they need more pixels structure. 800+ by 1920 isn't enough. Theoretically it should not make a difference on digital TVs that can only do 800 by 1600 or 720 by 1280, but it does. Movies shot on film, like Hidalgo which I also watched yesterday, looked much, much better.
IB
slick316
12-15-04, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Vcook
did you do any DD to DTS comparisons? Just curious, I rented it myself last night and will be watching it soon. :)
nope, no comparisons, shouldnt have even watched the movie last night considering i had a final today, lol, it went fine though.
there is one part in the movie that i thought there should have been more "surround" effects, i will watch that scene again in DD and DTS and compare it.
I just got Collateral from Netflix yesterday and watched it last night. What a great movie! The dts track was superb as well. I'll definitely be picking this up on BD.
Watched tonight. Good movie....Crappy Picture. Really a shame. Highly grainy, which I suppose is a stylistic approach, but the black level really sucked. Grey washed out blacks with lots of noise. Some of the dark scenes were so bad they were almost unwatcheable. I really enjoyed the movie, but I sure won't be buying the DVD.
Version
12-16-04, 08:23 AM
I'm pretty sure it was supposed to look that way.
Most Micheal Mann film do. It's a conscious choice.
inky blacks
12-16-04, 02:28 PM
It gave me eye strain. Something funny about the way the frames displayed.
IB
I rented the DVD and thought it looked terrible, thin, skeletal, and lacking in detail. It was like a sketch of the scenes with half the information missing. I didn't like the last Star Wars movie either for the same reason, although Collateral was much worse.
It's gonna be a big deal (death of celluloid) when digital meets or beats film's resolution. But that won't happen for a good while yet.
ChrisWiggles
12-18-04, 02:08 AM
Crappy Picture. Really a shame.
I'm sorry, but this isn't so much a disagreement, but rather you are just wrong on this one. This is a superb transfer, and I'm really really pleased by how it came out on DVD. I saw this twice on film and it is a detailed high-bitrate transfer with absolutely no EE that I could see anywhere. Completely honest and accurate to the intent of what was on the film presentation and the director's stylistic intent. Absolutely superb transfer, and a quality movie. Due to the way it was filmed, it looks very different from most films, but this is intentional. From a reference perspective of having seen this movie repeatedly on film, it is an *excellent* reference, and I voted strongly for it as a reference title. Best transfer I've seen as of recently.
Well,,, Wiggles, I don't know what to say, except with your comment I just have to assume that I must have gotten a deffective disk from Netflix, because the picture sure looked crappy to me.
Just so I can determine if I had a deffective DVD or not, was it supposed to have a faded noisy black level??
slateef
12-18-04, 08:48 AM
i agree that it is a good transfer; all the stuff people are complaining about was also in the theatrical release...call it "stylistic intent" or whatever.
very little to no edge enhancement (on my 106" screen), good black levels (not sure what some people are complaining about here), and excellent color reproduction. overall, a very good transfer and i am highly satisfied with this one.
ChrisWiggles
12-18-04, 11:27 AM
Phil: What is your video chain and display?
I can't fathom faded noisy blacks off this DVD unless something is quite wrong in your display chain. There really aren't any shots with faded black levels in this film at all. Again, most was shot in HD video, and captures a great deal of night-time detail that is not possible to capture on film, so the look is radically different from a film recording. You do know the difference and recognize this correct?
Chris, I am using an Ayre Dx-7 via DVI to my Sharp 12k and projecting on to 120" Silverstar. It is sounding more like I somehow got a deffective DVD from Netflix, since much of the film was dark, and there was quite a bit of noise in the darker scenes. I probably should re-rent the film to see if this was the case. I watched I Robot the night before, and black levels looked superb, without a trace of noise. I did not change any settings to view Collateral.
The scene that is really sticking in my mind, was in the office near the end. There really was so much noise in that scene that the shadowy figure of Tom Cruise was obscured by it.
ChrisWiggles
12-18-04, 01:21 PM
I suppose it is a possibility that it's a bad DVD, though it's unlikely. Though a Sharp 12K is a solid unit, so there shouldn't be much noise there (some dithering perhaps). The ending office scene is brutally dark with details, so it's possible dithering is rearing it's head, but still at normal viewing distances with your 12K it should look very solid and dark with very little noise, unless there's noise somewhere else in the sytem.
If you'd like, I can take some screen captures when I get home to roughly illustrate what it should look like, and I'll try to include a couple that are a touch grainy. If it's just a funky DVD, not a big deal, but certainly if there's something up with your system, it's worth looking into.
Now in that last office scene, there are a couple shots looking out the windows that are very very dark, and you can just barely see a black figure sort of moving around against the windows and reflected glass surfaces. I suppose if your black level is elevated, you might be seeing dithering, but the 12K doesn't exactly have a ton of dithering from what I've seen, it does pretty good with near-blacks. You might want to explore the transfer nearer the screen to see if you are seeing dithering problems?
It could also have something to do with the Silverstar, which is quite revealing of issues that others may not see. Unfortunately I have returned the Collateral disc, so I can't compare it again, but I can say that I have many other discs that have dark black levels that have not shown this amount of noise. Pitch black and Dark City both look great on my system, and I spend way too much time as it is calibrating it.
I have 4 copies of Avia, 1 copy of Video Essentials, 2 copies of DVE (DVD and DVHS) the Sound and Vision disc, as well as HD test patterns recorded on my HD Tivo. Unless my system suddenly broke, or somehow went way out of calibration, just as I was watching Collateral, I just can't imagine how it could be off. You can bet I will have my calibration discs out tonight to see if anything is amiss.
thedeskE
12-18-04, 03:21 PM
Funny, I did notice the DVD not being the best looking video, but was so immersed in the film, it didn't bother me. Big Mann fan here, so I can only say it will sit quite well next to the Heat SE if it ever shows.
Beautiful shoot of the city at night. Gotta give Mann credit where it's due.
E
ChrisWiggles
12-18-04, 04:50 PM
Phil, I will be getting home later this afternoon/evening, so I will do some more exploring with this title.
"Free" is just playing dumb. He doesn't like the style of the film and has bitched bitterly against it in the I, Robot thread. He didn't have a bad disc or anything wrong with his display; he just wants all movies to look the same as one another and hates that Mann shot this one in a way that doesn't look exactly like I, Robot.
Gee, I wondered when Mr. Cranky would show up here to spew his vitriol? I guess it is obvious why he is no longer working for DvdFile.
Randy Mathis
12-18-04, 11:40 PM
I also noticed a change in picture quality near the end of the movie.
Bravo D1 outputting 720p via DVI to a Sanyo PLV-Z2.
Most of the movie was near flawless but it seemed as though the picture quality changed.
Still a good DVD to own in my opinion.
Originally posted by Free
Gee, I wondered when Mr. Cranky would show up here to spew his vitriol? I guess it is obvious why he is no longer working for DvdFile.
Don't presume that you have knowledge about a topic when in fact you don't know a damn thing.
You'll have to excuse my vitriol. I just have no patience or tolerance for those who repeatedly demonstrate willfull ignorance. I guess that's a character flaw.
First time I have had to use the ignore list in 5 years :(
Deja Vu
12-19-04, 01:10 PM
I watched I Robot and Collateral back to back. Collateral's PQ held up very well - I was surprised after reading some reviews giving it a low score for PQ.
Cheers,
Grant
Newest Hobby
12-19-04, 01:14 PM
I watched this last night and loved it!! After reading this thread all week and after watching "iROBOT" earlier in the week, I expected this to be a bad movie with a horrible picture. There is nothing farther from the truth.
Maybe my display is too small to see some the issues stated here, I have a Sony 34XBR960 and Pioneer 59AVi, but the picture looked great to me and I loved the movie in general.
I know Jamie Foxx was nominated for a "Globe" award for this movie as best supporting actor but he was in more scenes than Tom Cruise. Seems like it should be actor in a leading role? Tom did a good job as well.
It's been a good month for movies. From the previews of "Alien verses Preditor" which comes out next week, looks like it will be another Reference xfer. Can't wait.
Rick
Hi guy's. I am glad I was able to lower your expectations enough for you to enjoy it ;)
Seriously, although rare, it is entirely possible that I had a bad disc. Some day I will try this one again, after I have waited long enough to enjoy the storyline again.
Version
12-19-04, 02:16 PM
It could also have something to do with the Silverstar, which is quite revealing of issues that others may not see. Unfortunately I have returned the Collateral disc, so I can't compare it again
It doesn't have anything to do with your screen. This was the way the movie was shot. What you were seeing is what you were suppossed to. :)
longshot
12-19-04, 03:51 PM
Watched this last night. Terrific movie. Nothing wrong with the pq at all, in fact I would consider it "near reference".
Mann is my favorite director. I put this film right there with Heat. Great dialogue btw. Cruise and Fox. Beautiful cinematography and excellent music. All staples of Mann's films.
HTCrazy
12-19-04, 04:43 PM
Watched this the other night with a couple of guys in town for business. I think we all found the film entertaining and all found ridiculous plot turns. For two of us, myself included, the improbable plot elements made the movie so-so overall while one guy really liked it.
I didn't see it in the theaters, so I'm not sure if the gernally yellowish tint to the movie was intentional (though I'd guess it was). But I found myself giggling the red component cable to the projector since the look was similar to when the red cable is loose. It wasn't loose.
Overall, high points for style, but I'd still have to give it an "echh".
slateef
12-19-04, 06:25 PM
you giggled the red cable?? didn't think it was that funny ;)
Originally posted by Free
First time I have had to use the ignore list in 5 years :(
Regardless of whether you read my responses or not, I feel it a duty for the benefit of other readers that someone continue to debunk your hair-brained opinions that you state as if they were fact.
suffolk112000
12-21-04, 10:06 AM
I watched this movie last night and thought it was pretty good. The ending was less than impressive though.
Picture quality was on the grainy side during really dark scenes, but the sound was great.
To be honest, I was expecting the picture quality to be much worse from the comments I have been reading on the forums about this movie. Actually, I have read a lot of positive reviews about Spiderman Superbit and I thought the picture quality in that movie was not much better than Collateral.
Craig
Spiderman 2 didn't look very good to me either, but I believe that was an accident, unless someone says it was supposed to look that way, then I guess it is ok.
angle_slam
12-22-04, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by FoxyMulder
Bought this film last week because i like Cruise and Manns work and i saw it last thursday.
I thought it was ok but it lacked any real development of the Cruise character and it just felt a little bit predictable in the route it took,
What kind of character development do you expect in a movie that takes place in nearly real time.
FoxyMulder
12-22-04, 11:37 AM
Cruises character seemed underwritten to me and the route it took was typical Hollywood with no real surprises and i didnt like the ending and i also wonder if perhaps we will see a directors cut with more footage next year.
Sorry to go against the grain but i thought it strictly average and Heat is a vastly superior Mann film.
thebland
12-22-04, 09:07 PM
Tom Cruise's big problem is that he still thinks he's [80's] Tom Cruise. The suit he wore through the movie was a la Miami Vice with the thin lapels and sheeny, cheesy look - should have gone Zegna. Fact is the movie, though entertaining, utterly failed us all at the end. This movie should've been called, "Coincidence'.
Picture 4.5/5: Since most all of the film was filmed in the evening, there was little to see in terms of color saturation and vibrancy (though the cab always looked fantastic in its yellow and red paint job). So not much there to comment on. The picture seemed to have a cold, blue tone to it. EE was minimal and images were crisp and clear throughout. Whether 'stylized' or not, some night images showed a lot of noise...yet many others did not - I'll guess stylized. Contrast was good and despite the dark character of the image, the DVD's dynamic range was very good (though in some instances, actors looked a little 2-D). All and all, a great effort and solid picture.
Sound 4/5: Well, there was little to comment on through the first 1/2 of the movie. Gunshots, driving scenes..all mundane. Step into the one showcase climatic scene near the end ( at the bar) and this flat sound track comes to life! That scene was truly electrifying and full of dynamics, pumping music, great surround activity with gun shots that almost Rivaled those from 'Open Range'. Other than that, the soundtrack was sort of a let down. Bass extension was mostly minimal and surround activity mostly absent except in the 2-3 action scenes. Dialog was very good, if not a little forward at times. Intelligibility was mostly good. Recording level allows for easy viewing at -0 (or higher). A solid soundtrack but nothing special.
Finally watched this tonight. Been reading some of the complaints here and in the other thread, and I have to say that the image quality of this movie was right on the money of what the director intended. I think Mann captured LA at night exactly as it really is giving the constraints of all the night shooting. I grew up in LA and not once did I feel that the imagery was out of whack from what one would see themselves if they were to spend some time there.
I agree with thebland's assessment of this film on the picture and sound points. Additionally, I think the scenes inside the dark office were exceptional considering the difficulty of that type of filming, I have seen far worse scenes filmed in the dark like that. Never once did I feel I couldn't see what was going on while at the same time accepting the fact that the office was devoid of light other than from outside light filtering in.
While the ending may have been weak to some I think it ended exactly the way it should have considering the emptiness and detachment that was exhibited in the character of Vincent and in the imagery of the City of LA as a visual but silent character of the movie. I am not a big fan of Tom Cruise but I liked him in this movie, I guess the less he acts the better he is, for me anyhow.
This movie reminded me of the similarly intense and LA-centric To Live And Die In LA. Both shot in LA, of course, and the main characters' singularly intent actions.
I like it and will watch it again.
suffolk112000
12-23-04, 06:27 AM
The first thing I thought of at the end of this movie and when the credits started rolling was, I bet there will be a part two...
Craig :)
thebland
12-23-04, 07:04 AM
Why did he have to kill the prosecutor at the end if all of the witnesses were dead - as if that would stop the legal case??? This made no sense to me...He should've just left town after the oriental was killed.
suffolk112000
12-23-04, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by thebland
Why did he have to kill the prosecutor at the end if all of the witnesses were dead - as if that would stop the legal case??? This made no sense to me...He should've just left town after the oriental was killed.
Good point jeff.
Craig :)
David Meek
12-23-04, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by thebland
Why did he have to kill the prosecutor at the end if all of the witnesses were dead - as if that would stop the legal case??? This made no sense to me...He should've just left town after the oriental was killed.
Remember Cruise's character is just the executioner. He doesn't (pardon the pun :) ) call the shots on who gets taken out. The DA could have easily been a "statement" target selected by the originator of the contract.
barhoram
12-23-04, 11:46 AM
- should have gone Zegna.
Jeff,
Cruise's character wouldn't go Zenga....as most hit men would try not to stick out wearing an ultramasculine Italian powersuit. He's really not looking to impress those on his "list". The suit was a conscious choice not to stick out.
thebland
12-23-04, 11:54 AM
To me, the cut, sheen, and narrow lapels stuck out like a sore thumb. I think Zegna (to me) represents understated, hi quality sophistication.....like his action hero like persona.
That suit just struck me a major fashion gaff.....Perhaps the book would make more sense of the suit and him.......
Good point above on the contract maker's wishes.....that would certainly explain the need to 'finish the job' with the prosecutor.
barhoram
12-23-04, 12:02 PM
my point exactly...
Witness: "the shooter was medium height, wearing a bad grey suit".
Cops: "Could be anybody."
Originally posted by David Meek
Remember Cruise's character is just the executioner. He doesn't (pardon the pun :) ) call the shots on who gets taken out. The DA could have easily been a "statement" target selected by the originator of the contract.
Exactly, often when dealing at that level, the prosecutor and the target of prosecution, things become personal. Plus, it puts fear in the next one to take up the case.
Wasn't there a sticky that explained how to post spoilers? I can't remember how to do it and I don't see the sticky anymore?
Spoiler Alert (couldn't figure out how to post the blanks)
In the end it seemed like Max and Vincent were on different levels in the transit station. He seem to jump on the wrong train. I played this scene over a few times and could not figure out how he jumped on the right train. It was late at night and I was tired.
darryl b
12-24-04, 01:24 PM
just watched the dvd.
great movie!!!
whoa!!!
you guys who don't like it need to upgrade your equipment so that you can appreciate the art here. collateral could also be called cosmos. people in modern, developed, rich, society are living their lives out on the fence between totally no significance at all and the importance that we all place on our selves. people like us who have home theaters are right on the fence. we are all collateral to each others life. in this movie the struggles winner is that peoples lives are important. we act on society and society acts on us. this is all wonderfully illustrated here
union1411
01-02-05, 12:33 AM
Boring movie. Scene in the nightclub was good. Good PQ/SQ. Acting good. Plot boring.
Version
01-02-05, 12:09 PM
That's a nice bit of insight there.
I thought the movie was fantastic. No, the ending didn't offer any surprises, but it fit the movie well enough. There was enough interesting dialogue and good pacing in it to carry it through.
One criticism I've read here, I entirely disagree with. I thought the character development was amazingly good. You learn a tremendous amount about both main characters even though the movie only covers a few hours of real time and it takes place mostly in a cab.
I thought Mann gave us great hints into the pasts of both characters without actually spelling it out.
And I loved the scene with the coyotes. It's just.....cool.
chirpie
02-01-05, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by thebland
Fact is the movie, though entertaining, utterly failed us all at the end. This movie should've been called, "Coincidence'.
Eh... sorta.
The fact that Jamie Foxx drops Jada Pinket-Smith off at the building she works at and picks up Cruise at the SAME building just doesn't feel that far fetched to me. Cruise is allowed to "scope out" that building as he knows it'll be easier to knock her off later that day. Frankly, including that particular string of events the biggest coincidence in the movie was Foxx picking up Smith's character to start it all.
If that strikes you as a coincidence you can't get around then there's gotta be a lot of movies that aren't enjoyable in store for you. ;-)
mike411
02-01-05, 05:33 PM
This movie was not that bad maybe because I expected to be I was tired and thought I would play this and fall asleep in a few minutes but to my surprise it kept me up until the end. Then I played Anacondas Hunt for the Blood Orchid in about ten minutes I fell asleep and when I woke up the credits were flowing up.
Spoiler below (hope this works):
I thought that the "coincidence" part with Vincent and the prosecutor was that she was first on his list, but just had not arrived at the building yet. Vincent just figured he'd come back later and get her.
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