Hero

[thebland]

I just rented this from BlockBuster and will watch it tonight.. Hope to give a little audio and video review as well. Looks to be fantastic! DTS soundrack, anamorphic transfer.

[mossym]

there is another thread running that says it doesn't look so fantastic

[mercury]

waiting for your review,

as of now,im on the hook.

to buy,or not to buy.

[Dreamaster]

I bought it today. Unfortunately I didn't see in the theatre and I wish I did so I would have a point of reference.

The first thing I looked for in the image was "overcompression" because I had heard the transfer was so bad. There is very little here... I use the zoom in function on my TV and on some movies at 8x is nothing more than "dancing blocks"... but that's not the case with Hero. Instead what I see up close is what I see without the zoom... a lot of grain... the image is also very soft.

I'm convinced that it is intentional and might be what some people are getting so tense about. It looked to me like the artist intended for
the movie to look like an older martial arts style film. But like I said, I
haven't seen it in a theatre to know how grainy or clear it was origionally.

The colors are nice... in fact, they are amazing at times. I just wanted to let you guys know that if the transfer is to blame it was done intentionally, but this is for sure not a case of too low a bitrate, IMHO. :)

Enjoy the film... and I do call it film for a reason. If this was Star Wars looking like this I'd be the first one to call for rolling heads, but it really does remind me of the "golden days" of martial art movies.

Peace,
Dreamaster

[thebland]

Just watched...good film. .Well done but slow at times with excellent action scenes.

Picture 3.75/5: Grainy, sometimes overstaturated and pixelated occassionally. Little in the way of EE, however. Granted the filming was a stylized film but I found dirt in the transfer occassionally and a soft picture throughout. Rarely, a sharp image but mainly overly contrasted and solid, deep colors. A fair rendering but a far way away from the ideal.

Sound: 4.25/5: The DTS soundtrack was very good. Mainly dialog heavy soundtrack but at times the soundfield was truly engaging with the surrounds firingon all cylinders. Dialog unstrained through majority of picture and bass potent at times - not often though. A fine soundtrack sure to please but no blockbuster.

[Troy LaMont]

Jeff,

It would be nice if you listed which version you were reviewing.

Thanks.

Troy

[ChrisMcCarthy]

Picture soft, but I really enjoyed the movie.

Very good story line. Good choreography.

Chris

[slb]

Is the dialog in this movie english or chinese with english subtitles? My wife hates reading subtitles.

-Steve

[Troy LaMont]

My wife hates reading subtitles.

This isn't for you guys then. It's only in Chinese (Mandarin) with English subtitles.

Troy

[thebland]

I watched the R1 mandarin (DTS) w/ subtitles.

On the menu, however, it appears there is an English dubbed soundtrack (2 channel) for thoe who prefer not to read subtitles. However, you'll miss some good surround effects..

[slb]

Thanks guys. I might have to rent this one and watch it when my wife is at one of those kitchen gadget/candle/tupper ware parties.;)

-Steve

[HTCrazy]

I really enjoyed it. Artistic movie like Crouching Tiger with even better cinematography and incredible audio, and not nearly as silly as CTHD. The opening scene with the sword fight, the master playing the KOTO, and the rain/water sounds in the palace garden was some of the most gorgeous and amazing audio I've heard in a movie. And of course visuals were equally as sumptuous.

For a foreign film, I thought the image quality was pretty good, and the DTS spectacular in parts. In terms of cinematography and sound, this movie is reference even if the absolute video quality and transfer isn't up to the latest Hollywood blockbuster standards.

Very artistically beautiful flick. Its too bad that the subject has to be people slicing each other up in the midst of such beauty. Ah well, have to keep the people in a warring state of mind afterall.

[Chris Gerhard]

I bought this DVD despite the negative reviews on the video quality. I purchased the Miramax RI release used from the local Movie Gallery knowing I could exchange it if it wasn't acceptable. The DTS soundtrack is excellent, the video definitely sub-par but I have seen worse and it wasn't so bad to distract from this great film. I only recently watched Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon for the first time and loved it which is the reason I sought this film out. I am going to keep the DVD since it isn't defective or the transfer so bad to be unwatchable but it sure should have been better. Shame on Miramax for not doing doing better with this title. I have recently purchased a number of Disney titles that were all excellent.

Chris

[Herman]

The opening scene with the sword fight, the master playing the KOTO, and the rain/water sounds in the palace garden was some of the most gorgeous and amazing audio I've heard in a movie.

That was awesome. I really enjoyed this movie. DTS track was excellent. PQ was not as bad as I expected after reading the other HERO thread. So thanks for lowering my expectations guys. It was soft and sometimes grainy but still decent - I've seen worse.

Great movie.

Herm

[SpeedyHTPC]

If you like that kind of music heres what it is. Second one.

http://www.philmultic.com/home/instruments/

[Troy LaMont]

How about Hero on Blu-Ray HD?! :D

http://avbuzz.com/bbs/av-cafe/cafe-uploads/2005/01/12/110550918602.jpg

Check out the monitor on the left and the Blu-Ray case to the left of the guy in the front. The demonstration guy is also holding what looks a brochure or handout with Hero on it.

Can't wait....

Troy

[PolkThug]

Originally posted by Troy LaMont
How about Hero on Blu-Ray HD?! :D

http://avbuzz.com/bbs/av-cafe/cafe-uploads/2005/01/12/110550918602.jpg

Check out the monitor on the left and the Blu-Ray case to the left of the guy in the front. The demonstration guy is also holding what looks a brochure or handout with Hero on it.

Can't wait....

Troy

Miramax purposely made the transfer crappy, so they could give comparisons for the Blu-Ray version. "Look how awesome Blu-Ray is compared to 'regular' DVD!" ;) ;)

After seeing Hero in the theater, I was really disappointed by Miramax's transfer. I read there are other transfers that are better.

Regards,
PolkTug

[Hughmc]

The "quality" may not have been there, but visually this movie is a feast. I can only imagine this in HD. It must have been a treat to see in the theater. The landscapes, architecture, costumes, colors, and weapons etc were beautiful.

Bring on HD so we can really enjoy this type of film.

[thebland]

Wow! I rated 'Hero' a 3.75/5 (and I think I was being a bit generous.

That said, I loved the film and was considering purchasing the poor DVD anyways. However, seeing 'Hero' on BluRay above leads me to believe that it will be among the initial software offerings with BluRay.

Great pix. Thanks!!

I'll wait for the Blu ray release!!!

(BTW - Since you were there, was the BluRay rendering life-like (wholly different transfer)??

[Hughmc]

Originally posted by thebland
Wow! I rated 'Hero' a 3.75/5 (and I think I was being a bit generous.

That said, I loved the film and was considering purchasing the poor DVD anyways. However, seeing 'Hero' on BluRay above leads me to believe that it will be among the initial software offerings with BluRay.

Great pix. Thanks!!

I'll wait for the Blu ray release!!!

(BTW - Since you were there, was the BluRay rendering life-like (wholly different transfer)??


I may not be as discerning as you Jeff but I am at the point that dvds are just 'acceptable' in terms of quality viewing. I enjoy HD programming so much that even dvd's as of late are ok, but so often leave me wanting more in terms of higher quality. I think Hero in this case gets a true injustice done to it by not being able to see it in HD. It just seems that as good as it was visually, much of the directors and producers intent to impress visually, gets lost with DVD viewing.

[thebland]

You don't have to be discerning to see Hero DVD was a poor offering. I agree that the richness of the movie and the powerful visuals make it an almost obligatory Hi Def offering.

I, too, am becoming a HD junkie. I truly enjoy the few D-Theater tapes I own. They are my constant foreplay until things climax with BluRay!! :D

*Excuse me while I go take a cold shower.......

[Matt_Stevens]

Wow. HERO on Blue-Ray will be terrific. The Miramax HD transfer are superb (witness Kill Bill in HD in Canada). It's what happens to them on the way to 480i that's the problem.

[Josh Z]

Originally posted by Troy LaMont
How about Hero on Blu-Ray HD?! :D

http://avbuzz.com/bbs/av-cafe/cafe-uploads/2005/01/12/110550918602.jpg

Check out the monitor on the left and the Blu-Ray case to the left of the guy in the front. The demonstration guy is also holding what looks a brochure or handout with Hero on it.

Well, apparently the Blu-Ray transfer is cropped to 16:9 and features the same washed-out color transfer as the crappy Extended Cut DVD from China. Wow, that's fantastic. Great job, Sony! Way to show those HD-DVD folks!

[Matt_Stevens]

It's all about getting rid of the black bars. They always do that at demos. They had an AIR FORCE ONE clip that was 1.78:1 as well.

[George Montemayor]

Originally posted by Matt_Stevens
It's all about getting rid of the black bars. They always do that at demos. They had an AIR FORCE ONE clip that was 1.78:1 as well.
Anyone asked the Blu-Ray rep if Hero and other movies will be encoded anamorphically such that a 2.35 AR movie at 1080p will have the full 1080 lines (and not 817 lines if non-anamorphic)?

[Matt_Stevens]

All we know is that everthing will be OAR.

[wdang]

Originally posted by ChrisMcCarthy
Picture soft, but I really enjoyed the movie.

Very good story line. Good choreography.

Chris

IMO, the soft picture is intended to give the movie a romantic look. The movie is definitely very artistic and I also love the story line.

[Matt_Stevens]

It was NOT soft in the theater. And the Japanese DVD is not soft.

[csmith75]

I would love to see this movie with a decent picture. Even with the "soft" picture, it was absolutely beautiful.

[Rob Tomlin]

I think Jeff's review is right on target.

I too LOVED this movie. Incredible cinematography/choreography!

I'll probably try to hold out for the Blu Ray version.

[Crunchyriff]

I dunno, but for me this movie PEGGED the suck-o-meter.

The only thing great about it was the cinematography. Well, okay, the sound quality was pretty darn good, and the dialouge was clear, not buried.. So-what? That alone can't save a rotten movie. For a movie it was way too 'artsy' in it's approach...way over the edge, in fact; without much else to support it.

If I want 'art' I'll stare at my stuff or go to a gallery.

Yuck. I can't believe I wasted 98 minutes of my life on this piece of trash. Then again, I feel the same way about "King Arthur"...

[Kid Red]

Trash? Far from it. Well acted. Well written. Lots of action. Great direction/cinematography. What's not to like unless you simply don't like the genre.

[cyberbri]

My wife and I finally got around to renting it over the weekend. We both loved it (the movie), and were both blown away by the imagery, cinematography, use of colors, and fight scenes. Great movie. I may buy this one.

As for it being soft, I wouldn't know - I view DVDs through an HTPC and upconvert them and sharpen them up a bit. For me it's about getting a good (=sharp) picture, not going for "reference" to see what's really on the DVD. I'll leave that to the reviewers and enjoy a razor-sharp picture on all my DVDs, whether they were soft or sharp to begin with. :)

[Crunchyriff]

KidRed-

maybe it's just the genre in general. I dunno. It didn't do for me what it has for many others...

For me, a movie must entertain me. No matter what the genre. or Ficton/non-fiction. This one bored me to tears. The first 10 minutes I'm thinking "I hope this gets better". 20 mintutes into it and I'm having serious doubts...
The acting wasn't bad- in fact some of it was VERY good.

I would much prefer to see a series of stills from the cinematography aspect. Very, very beautiful, indeed.

If I were to judge it based on cinematic art alone, I'd rate it very highly.

As a whole, as a movie...well, YMMV.

Maybe I just need to sit thru another viewing, but I doubt that's gonna happen.

[Adam T]

Let me just ignore video quality (and the overall quality of the movie in general) for a moment and ask a simple question: Has there ever been a better sounding DTS or DD soundtrack than this? Seriously, I cannot name one. I was just floored by the audio mix in this movie and I knew it was something really special when my wife - - who usually doesn't give a damn about this sort of thing - - said at least 3 times during the movie, "Damn, the sound in the movie kicks ass." Indeed.

Sure, the video could have been better, but as far as audio reference quality goes, this just jumped to the top of my list. (For those interested... My "best audio tracks" list would include: both the new Star Wars movies, IMAX's Super Speedway, all the Lord of the Rings [6.1 version] movies, The Haunting, Underworld, U-571, and Saving Private Ryan [for the opening scene alone]). But Hero is better than all of them.

[Crunchyriff]

AdamT- agreed. In all fairness, the audio (DTS) track is one of the best out there. (Especially the dialouge). I didn't compare it to the DD version. It is picture-perfect. There is no mud, no muddled lines, nor any shrillness. Often I'll listen for this first, as all the great music in the world won't do a movie a bit of good if all you hear is the actors 'mumbling'...

[jehagain]

i enjoyed hero a lot. don't understand why quintin tarintino's name is on the cover though.

[Matt_Stevens]

Actually, yes, there is a better sounding DTS track out there. It's from HERO, the Hong Kong release, which is not a "half-rate" DTS track. The Japanese DTS track is a very close second, followed by the Miramax track. All are absolute reference.

As for Tarantino's name, Miramax refused to release the film because they had no confidence in it. Tarantino called Harvey and asked him to release the film and Harvey said only if we can put your name on it and he said whatever, just release the damn film.

And the film made huge money, proving the bozos at Miramax to be, well, bozos.

[thebland]

I found the DTS track very good and very 3-D at times but hardly at the top of some major releases. Pleasing for sure but far from a reference recording. Daredevil, though dumb, has an excellent 3-D soundtrack with far more bass, low, low bass..

[Steve Goff]

In the theater both picture and sound were amazing, though I prefered House of Flying Daggers overall. Too bad the DVD is sub par.

[Glade]

I am with the small minority here that did not enjoy this film.

Admittedly, I was somewhat biased by the historical liberties taken to make the story more CCP (Chinese Communist Party) friendly to secure permission to film inside the PRC. Still, I am a huge fan of the genre and expected to enjoy the film.

As others have noted, the stylized cinematography is great -- the use of color, composition, POV and moving objects (fabric, leaves, arrows, etc.).

The rest of the film IMO was problematic. The fight sequences were very repetitive one to the next, the character development was thin and the plot weak, barely even serving as a device to link one action sequence to the next.

I agree that a HD version of the film would be great as a demo but I can't see watching it again for anything other than that.

I much preferred HFD.

[Crunchyriff]

Jeff,

I was too chagrined at the flick as a whole, to really nit-pick the DTS soundtrack in all its content. What really struck me in it, was the clarity of the dialouge; so many movies suffer in this area, even today in this regard ("Collateral" for one), and I find it inexcuseable.

Hero's dialouge quality was just about perfect.

[david118383]

I just watched this tonight and while the transfer was a huge disappointment, the DTS track was fantasic. Probably one of the top 3 sounding DVDs I have heard right along with Master and Commander and Saving Private Ryan. The film was good as well.

[JohnR_IN_LA]

This film had a boring, contrived, predictable story that was basically just a framework for some beautiful fight sequences.. I agree with Glade, the plot doesnt even really succeed in linking the fight sequences together.
Man this movie is a joke.

And the fight scenes, though pretty, were hillariously fake. The beginning is bad, it starts with that ridiculous arrow bombardment of a school. Volleys of thousands of arrows pour down onto every rooftop on the complex. THe amount of arrows that swamp this school must be over a million. its beyond cartoon-like in its excessiveness. Arrows sail through the buildings as the students kind of learn to live with the sailing around inside their buildings. and it goes downhill from there.

The acting and writing were both mostly bad, none of the characters were worth caring about. They all played their one roll that they know how to play...

Its a hack job too. Near the beginning Jet Li has a fight with Donnie Yen, who has an uncanny resemblance to a young David Kincaid (like in the original Kung Fu TV shows). I was fully expecting him to be in the rest of the movie, but no such luck. They apparently hired this guy for one fight sequence, and then he left.

I thought it was one of the worst movies all year. It makes Troy look like a masterpiece.

[JohnR_IN_LA]

Originally posted by jehagain
i enjoyed hero a lot. don't understand why quintin tarintino's name is on the cover though.
He's basically the US promoter of the film. His only job is to get Americans to buy it. Its pretty deceptive if you ask me.

[FredProgGH]

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA

Its a hack job too. Near the beginning Jet Li has a fight with Donnie Yen, who has an uncanny resemblance to a young David Kincaid (like in the original Kung Fu TV shows).

Wow! That's incredibly insulting to both Donnie Yen and David Carradine (that's what you meant, right??) in one fluid move. Way to go! :D

What can I say- Citizen Kane has its detractors as well. What are you going to do...

[wdang]

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA

And the fight scenes, though pretty, were hillariously fake.
I thought it was one of the worst movies all year. It makes Troy look like a masterpiece.

Even though I rate this film one of my most favorite. I respect your negative opinion on this movie. However, saying the fight scenes were hilariously fake tells me you don't understand the Chinese culture. If you read any Chinese martial arts novel you would understand why the fight scienes in all Chinese martial arts movies are *fake* the way they are. IMO, you're judging someone's culture using your own set of standard.

[JohnR_IN_LA]

Originally posted by FredProgGH
Wow! That's incredibly insulting to both Donnie Yen and David Carradine (that's what you meant, right??) in one fluid move. Way to go! :D

What can I say- Citizen Kane has its detractors as well. What are you going to do...

Oh yea, Carradine :)
You dont think theres a resemblance?

[FredProgGH]

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA
Oh yea, Carradine :)
You dont think theres a resemblance?

It hadn't struck me but I have been meaning to watch it again, maybe even tomorow so with that in mind I'll let you know :D

[JohnR_IN_LA]

Originally posted by wdang
Even though I rate this film one of my most favorite. I respect your negative opinion on this movie. However, saying the fight scenes were hilariously fake tells me you don't understand the Chinese culture. If you read any Chinese martial arts novel you would understand why the fight scienes in all Chinese martial arts movies are *fake* the way they are. IMO, you're judging someone's culture using your own set of standard.

No I'm actually just watching a DVD :). Ive been to China and Hong Kong, and love some of the culture over there.

I can imagine the set designer putting 2000 arrows in each roof, proudly showing off his work, and the the director saying "No, we need MORE ARROWS!" lol.

[FredProgGH]

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA

I can imagine the set designer putting 2000 arrows in each roof, proudly showing off his work, and the the director saying "No, we need MORE ARROWS!" lol.

It's the Chinese version of "but these go to eleven." :D

[wdang]

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA
No I'm actually just watching a DVD :). Ive been to China and Hong Kong, and love some of the culture over there.

I can imagine the set designer putting 2000 arrows in each roof, proudly showing off his work, and the the director saying "No, we need MORE ARROWS!" lol.

I didn't mean to criticize you :) All I wanted to point out is that exaggerated scenes we see in most if not all Chinese fight movies originated from their martial art novels. Scenes like running on the surface of the water without the help of any floating devices or a martial-art hero swinging his thousand-year-old one-of-a-kind sword in the middle of a pouring rain without getting one drop of rainwater on him is part of their culture. Those scenes are accepted without much of a thought, sort of like reading the Greek mythology. None of its makes much sense but we accept it as part of the Greek culture. BTW, I'm not Chinese myself but I loved to read the translated Chinese martial-art novels when I was a teenager.

[Josh Z]

I think JohnR is one of the many people mislead by Miramax's deceptive marketing campaign, which promoted the movie as a kick-ass chopsocky flick. "Jet Le is a kung-fu killing machine, and he's gonna kick this emperor's ASS!!!! BOOOOO-YAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!"

If those are your expectations, the movie is of course going to be a disappointment. This is an art film. The fight scenes are poetic, not realistic.

[FredProgGH]

This is a perfect film for people like my dear 80 yo. mother who never saw a martial arts film in her life until Crouching Tiger came out and loved it. Hero is as beautiful but also has a bit more of, say, a straight up action feel while still being arty. She LOVES it. It's incrementalism; pretty soon she'll be ready for 39th Chamber of Shaolin.

[Fabbas]

The bottom line is that the "fake" fighting in kung fu movies is a stylistic device intended to show the kung fu fighter as larger-than-life, but it is not intended to be a realistic portrayal of kung fu fighting. Some people may not care for such stylized fighting, and that's fine. But to condemn the movie based on the fact that its fighting isn't realistic is like condeming Star Wars because their spaceships aren't realistic.

[FredProgGH]

Originally posted by Fabbas
The bottom line is that the "fake" fighting in kung fu movies is a stylistic device intended to show the kung fu fighter as larger-than-life, but it is not intended to be a realistic portrayal of kung fu fighting. Some people may not care for such stylized fighting, and that's fine. But to condemn the movie based on the fact that its fighting isn't realistic is like condeming Star Wars because their spaceships aren't realistic.

It's also meant to be an artistic expression of the skill of the performer, much like dance, really. But a whole lot more fun (and less threatening to the manhood :D) to watch!!

[JohnR_IN_LA]

The fake fighting I can handle, it was just a minus. And most of it was fine and beautiful, the lake, etc. The million arrow volley was over the top silly though.

My main complaint with this movie is the script and performance. None of these characters really differentiated themselves from eachother. The kung fu guys were all about the same... the girls personalities seemed nearly indistinguishable from eachother, they even seemed to, kind of, like the same guy... though there was no chemistry *at all*. Of course they would just as soon kill as kiss, so its not like they were sympathetic characters. This made for perhaps the weakest love triangle in the history of movies.

So theres these 4 heros, who are on their own quests to kill this emporer, but then they spend most of their time fighting eachother. The one epic fight is at the beginning, between Donnie and Jet Li... Thats kind of like having Achilles kill Hector in the first 10 minutes of Troy, with the rest of the movie just sorting out the details...

[randall]

The one epic fight is at the beginning, between Donnie and Jet Li... Thats kind of like having Achilles kill Hector in the first 10 minutes of Troy, with the rest of the movie just sorting out the details...
Donnie's character wasn't killed. His death -- like that of Tony Leung's and Maggie Cheung's characters -- was faked to establish the credibility of Jet Li's character. With three faked deaths, someone had to go first. Plus Donnie's character had to go first to send Maggie's character into a tizzy.

[SAMURAI36]

The actual reviews in this thread (not counting the quality of video descriptions) would lead me to believe that we are talking about an altogether different movie, it I hadn't seen the movie myself (NOTE: I've owned this movie for over 2.5 years, as I'm a collector of foreign films, especially those of the martial arts variety).

This film is a perfect blend of eastern-religion-clashes-with-politics, told in a NIETZCHE-esque tone.

The super-natural aspects of each warrior's abilities (walking on water, mind-linking, elemental control, etc) were subtle enough to lend to the film sans over the top special effects, whilst not focus on those aspects, which oftentimes serve to take a level of credibility from many martial arts films that I've seen and owned (LEGEND OF ZU comes to mind).

To the person who said:

And the fight scenes, though pretty, were hillariously fake. The beginning is bad,
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it starts with that ridiculous arrow bombardment of a school. Volleys of thousands of arrows pour down onto every rooftop on the complex. THe amount of arrows that swamp this school must be over a million. its beyond cartoon-like in its excessiveness. Arrows sail through the buildings as the students kind of learn to live with the sailing around inside their buildings.

You're truly x-aggerating, while at the same time, you obviously didn't get the proper intent from that segment.

Not to mention that the film doesn't begin that way.

The arrow scene in question was relevant because it showed an innovation in warfare, that hadn't been seen or executed prior to that time in history.

"Sainling around inside their buildings....."?? Not sure what that means, but it surely had nothing to do with the film.

The students were making a silent protest to imperialism.

I think that the common thread, both here and in society at large, is that the people who downplay this and related films, are the very same people who don't totally understand it.

For almost 3 years, HERO has been pegged as one of the best films to come out of the East in a while, and believe me, that's saying ALOT.

[JohnR_IN_LA]

My correct quote is:

"Arrows sail through the buildings as the students kind of learn to live with them sailing around inside their buildings. "

Which is correct. The teacher makes the students continue to work while arrows permeate every corner of the room. And I thought the teacher was demonstrating the power of writing, not protesting Imperialism (?)

The bow and arrow is not known for its ability to penetrate heavy roofs and kill all the occupants of a city, thats ridiculous.

Arrows advanced warfare by giving the common peasant soldier a way to take down a rich armored horseman.

[Josh Z]

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA
My main complaint with this movie is the script and performance. None of these characters really differentiated themselves from eachother. The kung fu guys were all about the same... the girls personalities seemed nearly indistinguishable from eachother, they even seemed to, kind of, like the same guy... though there was no chemistry *at all*. Of course they would just as soon kill as kiss, so its not like they were sympathetic characters. This made for perhaps the weakest love triangle in the history of movies.

Of course, there is also the possiblity that you are just completely and utterly wrong.




[size=1]That was a joke, in case I really need to explain it.





But really it wasn't.[/size]

[JohnR_IN_LA]

Also, wasn't the martial arts in this movie kind of weak?

Lots of those retarded frozen wire shots, with the sword held in front of them motionless like a chromium swan, as they ride the wire towards the target. Oh and the swirling leaves scene... 500 pretty leaves would have been artistic... But 50,000 leaves ..

And leaf swirls are a delicate momentary phenomenom, right?
Not here...

[SAMURAI36]

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA
My correct quote is:

"Arrows sail through the buildings as the students kind of learn to live with them sailing around inside their buildings. "

I know what you quoted, I cut the quote in half, to address the part that was NOT correct.


Which is correct. The teacher makes the students continue to work while arrows permeate every corner of the room. And I thought the teacher was demonstrating the power of writing, not protesting Imperialism (?)

Again, I don't think you got the proper understanding of the film. Prior to making the students sit back down and continue their work, the teacher gives them a speech about preserving their culture, of which writing was merely a part.

The bow and arrow is not known for its ability to penetrate heavy roofs and kill all the occupants of a city, thats ridiculous.

This is where a proper understanding of military history, especially from an Eastern perspective comes into play.

Eastern archery was, at one point, the most superior in the whole world. What other cultures utilized the entire body to launch arrows? Do you know the force that is harnessed by such a process? It had never been done before that, and was hardly emulated afterward.

Besides, you are aware of what ASIAN buildings are made up, yes? A person of average strength could punch their fist through the wall.....It could even be seen straight through, for that matter.

I honestly don't think you're considering all the aspects of the film, and why/how they make sense.



Arrows advanced warfare by giving the common peasant soldier a way to take down a rich armored horseman. [/B]

HUH?? What culture are you speaking about (certainly not Eastern culture).....And what precisely did that have to do with this film?

Also, wasn't the martial arts in this movie kind of weak?

Not at all......In fact, it was right on par with virtually every other artistic martial arts film in the same genre (CROUCHING TIGER, HOUSING OF FLYING DAGGERS, etc).

And also, let it be known that this film was supposed to emphasize the artistic value, and not the martial value.

This wasn't intended to be your average SHAW BROS 1970's KUNG FU THEATER flick.

Lots of those retarded frozen wire shots, with the sword held in front of them motionless like a chromium swan, as they ride the wire towards the target.

I'm assuming here that you're speaking about the "DEATH WITHIN 10 PACES" attack.....Again the artistic value was emphasized.

But that doesn't mean that the attack didn't have any martial value.......The attack is so unique, because it's supposed to depict the relentless momentum of the attacker, harnessed all in one step. It was supposed to be as poetic as it was lethal.....That was the point of the discussion between LI's character and the King.

Oh and the swirling leaves scene... 500 pretty leaves would have been artistic... But 50,000 leaves ..

And leaf swirls are a delicate momentary phenomenom, right?
Not here...

It's becoming painfully obvious that you didn't understand even most of the film, which is, as I stated before, why you didn't like it.

FALLING SNOW's abilities were elemental in nature (reference what I stated about the supernatural abilities, to which you never responded)......She was harnessing the wind in that fight scene, that's why the leaves were swirling violently.

My main complaint with this movie is the script and performance. None of these characters really differentiated themselves from eachother. The kung fu guys were all about the same... the girls personalities seemed nearly indistinguishable from eachother, they even seemed to, kind of, like the same guy... though there was no chemistry *at all*. Of course they would just as soon kill as kiss, so its not like they were sympathetic characters. This made for perhaps the weakest love triangle in the history of movies.

LOVE TRIANGLE??

Once again, you did not understand the movie at all......There was NEVER a love triangle. EVER.

So theres these 4 heros, who are on their own quests to kill this emporer, but then they spend most of their time fighting eachother. The one epic fight is at the beginning, between Donnie and Jet Li... Thats kind of like having Achilles kill Hector in the first 10 minutes of Troy, with the rest of the movie just sorting out the details...

Nope, you definitely don't understand this film.

Just like the "LOVE TRIANGLE", the warriors NEVER fought each other (with the x-ception of SKY and JET LI, but that was an arranged fight). Please go back and watch this film again.



SPOILER:

There were 3 different stories being told in this film. Only one was the truth.

Do you know which one that was, JOHN?

Here's a hint:

The colors that the characters wore changed with each version.






Now granted, I've seen this film, several times since I've owned it a couple of years ago, so my understanding may be a bit more keen than most....Not to mention the fact that I'm a student of eastern philosophy.....

But I think that any drama buff would be able to draw from the key aspects of the story without needing to see it more than twice (I would recommend seeing it at least twice).

[lnguyen]

If you haven't understood the Eastern Cultures and Martial Art, especially Swordmanship, you will never understand the movie.

Chinese Kungfu novels emphasize the development of inner strength, zen, which the more practice you are, the more power you have. You develop your inner power to the point you can run on the water, you can kill a person standing far out from your reach. In swordmanship, if you are a master, you can predict your opponent mind (it is kind of guessing through reaction) and you wait for an exact moment to strike, it is more important to dominate your opponent mentally than physically.

Most Asian houses at that time made from straws and don't tell me that arrow can't puncture through rice straws.

The master told the student to sit down and write. First, where else would they go when the whole country had been sacked. Second they want to show that the army conquer their land physically but they can't kill them mentally.

Arghh, I am getting lazy to write more:D

[SAMURAI36]

Don't worry Inguyen, your sentiments mirrored mine precisely.

;)

[rockbottom16]

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA
Also, wasn't the martial arts in this movie kind of weak?


Weak??? I dare u to give a better example that is not weak?
And I hope it better not be any VAn Damme, Chuck Norris, SEagal or Charlie's Angel films.

[cyberbri]

Both my wife and I understood the first (and only) time we watched the movie that there were different versions of what happened going back and forth. It would have been obvious from the actual dialog to anyone listening (reading), even if they didn't change the colors for each version.

I don't know how anyone could possibly miss that...


FWIW, both my wife and I loved this movie. The colors and the cinematography were amazing and poetic. The PQ wasn't perfect, but I'd rather watch this than a "perfect 10 reference DVD" whose only redeeming quality is a good transfer...

[JohnR_IN_LA]

You guys are assuming I missed something, when in actuality, I just didnt care, once i realized i was watching a bunch of fight scenes pieced together with a weak script and even weaker characters. Who was "The Nameless"? Was he a a 2-bit warlord trying to protect his little fiefdom? (seemed like it). Or maybe he wasn't. If he wasn't: why was he before the king? Do I care, no... because he didnt seem morally any better, or even different, from the king.

The way the Emporer's guards are not only outside the palace during this tense meeting, ... but waiting down what seemed like HUNDREDS of steps, is another hilarious scene.

So when their emporer in the palace, gets threatened, there isnt a single guard even at the door, instead these thousands of heavily armored troops start huffing up these steps... hah the orcish hords in LOTR looked like intelligent life beside these guys.

I can imagine an assistant director pleading " But... lets put several guards by the door", and the director getting all huffy and saying " NO, we will put all the guards down these steps! I will then getbrilliant shots of the army running up the steps to save their emporer!" Hah, i donno this movie just completely lost it for me.
.

If you want to see a story that actually has you care about characters, to care how it ends, and to care even how it ends, watch "The Last Samarai".
Or Kill Bill.

[shah8]

John, wow, what a way to make what you say worthless, huh? Last Samurai or Kill Bill?

Dude, I'm not known for being gentle with people with failings of ignorance or woodenheadedness, but let me try, and urge you to simply read the above comments of Inguyen and Samurai36 and absorb them.

And to fix one grevious error in your understanding of military history. It is the CROSSBOW, not arrows that gave peasants a larger role in warfare, not a bow and arrow (agincourt)

[cyberbri]

Nobody has mentioned what this movie says about war...

[JohnR_IN_LA]

Well you could argue the crossbow was more important in the East, and the longbow in the West, regardless they are similar technologies with different strengths and weaknesses, and they both had advantages in taking down richly equiped horsemen that the nobles sent out to detroy your village :)

The Last Samarai was a far superior movie IMHO, even from a cinematography standpoint, (which Hero was strong in also).

The story was way more cohesive and intelligent, and the individual characters in Samarai were fully developed down to every villager.

Like the grumpy Samarai that keeps putting bets on Cruise, even though he scows at the American. Watching that guy is hillarious.

Or the old samarai thats in the Imperial army, what a great characterization. Everywhere you look, theres real acting, and real directing.

Yes, the minor characters in Samarai are better developed than the main characters in Hero.

Ok, I've been beat up enough on this, its always fun taking an unpopular viewpoint on the boards, signing out of this thread... later

[Crunchyriff]

I thought it was one of the worst movies all year. It makes Troy look like a masterpiece.

I love it!! :D :D :D HAR!!

Like I said, I...well, you already know what I said...

[veco]

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA

And the fight scenes, though pretty, were hillariously fake.

I am sorry, but this statement makes as much sense as someone going to watch Spiderman and saying "although the action scenes were awesome, the fact that someone can climb a wall or shoot spider webs and hang from buildings were obviously fake"

or watching the Matrix and saying "the scene at the top of the building was beautiful, but obviously fake because no one can avoid bullets like that"...

Come on, this is moving watching, if you want to see real stuff, then stick to CNN or reality TV.

[shah8]

Eh, I don't like Hero either, kinda the same as you. I didn't like the plot, which I felt was weak in the first place, and I hated the twist at the end.

I avoided Last Samurai because it gets the history just soooo ****ed up, I couldn't bear to watch that. It didn't get great reviews, to my knoweledge...Now, alot of things you said, I think focused on stuff that wasn't why it was bad to me...

And oh yes, that was my error, agincourt was was longbow, not crossbow ?;~). Cross and composite bows always stuck in my mind as much more important weapons historically, so fuzzed up on that...

[SAMURAI36]

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA
Well you could argue the crossbow was more important in the East, and the longbow in the West, regardless they are similar technologies with different strengths and weaknesses, and they both had advantages in taking down richly equiped horsemen that the nobles sent out to detroy your village :)

See, this is the very reason that you don't understand this movie, because your understanding of history is totally skewered.

The CROSSBOW is not originally an Eastern concept, it is a Western one.

The film THE HERO eloquently demonstrates Eastern warfare perfectly; everything from the technology used, to the style of warfare employed.

The Last Samarai was a far superior movie IMHO, even from a cinematography standpoint, (which Hero was strong in also).

The story was way more cohesive and intelligent, and the individual characters in Samarai were fully developed down to every villager.

Not to take anything away from you (I don't know you, beyond what you've posted here), but I have trouble accepting your ability to discern the "cohesiveness and intelligence" from any of these films.

LAST SAMURAI, though having a similar theme to HERO, was very Western in creation and premise.....It was told through a Western man's eyes (both the director and the main actor).......HERO was not.

Perhaps that's why you openly accept LS, as opposed to HERO? It doesn't seem as though you do too well with Eastern philosophy and culture (which btw, was the underlying them of LS).

Like the grumpy Samarai that keeps putting bets on Cruise, even though he scows at the American. Watching that guy is hillarious.

Is that all that you got from that as well?

Or the old samarai thats in the Imperial army, what a great characterization. Everywhere you look, theres real acting, and real directing.

What's so great about this sensibility (btw, that's not "acting"; there are people living and breathing to this very day, who think like that), yet is not the same for the characters in HERO--"NAMELESS", for x-ample? He was willing to die under the same premise.

Speaking of which:

Who was "The Nameless"? Was he a a 2-bit warlord trying to protect his little fiefdom? (seemed like it). Or maybe he wasn't. If he wasn't: why was he before the king? Do I care, no... because he didnt seem morally any better, or even different, from the king.

You have done nothing here, but invalidate your entire presence in this thread, with this one statement.

If you don't know what the movie was about, nor claim to care, then:

#1) How can you make the claim that it was not good, the characters were ill-developed, etc?

#2) Why are you even in this thread, defending a point that you're not even sure of to begin with?

Nonetheless, the answer to your question is "NO", NAMELESS was not a warlord. If I have to x-plain what he was to you (even at the risk of giving a SPOILER {btw, none of your "spoilers" thus far have actually been spoilers; if any reader here goes by what you've stated, then they'd be just like you: not knowing what the hell this movie is about}), then my efforts would be wasted.......For reference, I'm only responding to your lack of knowledge for the sake of other readers here.

The way the Emporer's guards are not only outside the palace during this tense meeting, ... but waiting down what seemed like HUNDREDS of steps, is another hilarious scene.

Wow, that's interesting; you claim that you liked LAST SAMURAI so much, when the very same premise happened......

When TOM CRUISE was talking to the SAMURAI Lord, no guards protected the Lord.......The Lord even sent the one guard away.

This is an aspect of Eastern culture that I know that your mind has trouble getting around; in the Eastern Way, it is absurd to feel threatened in the sanctity of one's own dwellings (home, temples, etc)......Whereas the distrustful Western Mind feels threatened any/everywhere he goes.......I wonder why that is the case? :rolleyes:

So when their emporer in the palace, gets threatened, there isnt a single guard even at the door, instead these thousands of heavily armored troops start huffing up these steps... hah the orcish hords in LOTR looked like intelligent life beside these guys.

At the risk of breaking the rules of this board, and beginning a debate about culture and philosophy, I will say that your perspectives on these things are borderline insulting. :(


Yes, the minor characters in Samarai are better developed than the main characters in Hero.

Sorry friend, but you don't know what you're talking about.......The LAST SAMURAI, though very good, as I'd previously stated, was told through the eyes of a westerner, for the sake of being viewed by Westerners.

It was a tale of comparative philosophy, and very little more.

HERO OTOH, was told strictly through Eastern eyes, and was originally meant for only Eastern eyes.

Because you didn't understand nor appreciate it, doesn't speak ill of the movie; perhaps it only speaks ill of you, and your level of understanding....?

Ok, I've been beat up enough on this, its always fun taking an unpopular viewpoint on the boards, signing out of this thread... later

I could be wrong, but this sound to me, like a passive-aggressive admit of defeat. ;)

[Matt_Stevens]

Perfect post. Couldn't have said it better myself.

By the way, HERO has been shown in High Definition. 720p, DD5.1 and subtitled in English. Not sure of the quality or where it was shown (likely in Canada), but more news on this will be posted soon.

[SAMURAI36]

Originally posted by Matt_Stevens
Perfect post. Couldn't have said it better myself.


Thanx Matt!! :D

[mooshoo]

Samurai,

Thanks for posting your reply. I read the thread last week, and have been wanting to post a reply to John's original post.

You pretty much nailed everything that I wanted to say!

It's a shame though. I think one of the problems Hero got criticism in the west is the way the movie was publicized and marketed. A lot of people really did think the movie was supposed to be "action-chop-sockey", and were disappointed to find out otherwise.

[JohnR_IN_LA]

Samarai136, you managed to carry out 12 personal attacks on a forum member in one post. Very impressive....

[cyberbri]

I heard a lot about its message about war, and noticed it as well. Yet no one has brought it up here... (maybe avoiding that subject on purpose)

[Mr. 568]

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA
You guys are assuming I missed something, when in actuality, I just didnt care, once i realized i was watching a bunch of fight scenes pieced together with a weak script and even weaker characters.

Who was "The Nameless"? Was he a a 2-bit warlord trying to protect his little fiefdom? (seemed like it). Or maybe he wasn't. If he wasn't: why was he before the king? ....

If you want to see a story that actually has you care about characters, to care how it ends, and to care even how it ends, watch "The Last Samarai".
Or Kill Bill.

Either this poster has tastes completely opposite to those who apprecite Hero, or he is having fun trying to get a rise out of you guys.

[Bluesea]

Holy cow, this thread has taken an odd curve. Suffice to say that not only did someone not comprehend the basic plot of "Hero", but also has no understanding of Wuxia's roots in Chinese opera.

I thought that Jet Li, kneeling before the King of Qin, delivered a deceptively powerful performance.



Who was "The Nameless"? Was he a a 2-bit warlord trying to protect his little fiefdom? (seemed like it). Or maybe he wasn't. If he wasn't: why was he before the king? ....


That question was answered within the first 5 minutes.

[JohnR_IN_LA]

Your right, i have no understanding of the roots of Chinese Opera, lol.

Im glad you guys liked this medicre Jet Li B-movie, I'm just suprised by all the attacks on me. I must have stumbled into a Martial-Arts-Fan thread.

By the way, I have a B.A. in Cinema, and have made several films myself ( training films). Really, theres no reason to attack me, I just call em as I see em. Theres other people in this thread who didnt like it, for the exact same reasons.

----------------------

And BlueSea, just because Jet Li didnt kill Sky, doesnt mean he wasnt a 2-bit warlord. Or was his whole position in Chinese society a ruse?

In other words, did they made up the whole story for the Emporer? Or just the part about him killing Sky?

[mooshoo]

JohnR_IN_LA,
lol, don't take it too personally buddy. I think all the "attacks" were just pointing out the holes in your commentary about the movie. Without sounding offensive, I do feel your comments were a bit un-supported, and a bit harsh at times.

To sum up the movie briefly:
Nameless (Woo Ming Da Sha) is from Zhao. He is low-position-holding officer. He wanted to take revenge against Qin Emperor for killing his entire village. To get close to the Emperor, he had to find a way to get inside the palace. So, he took up the bounty offered against Flying Snow (Fei Shwei), Broken Sword (Tsang Jien), and Sky (Tsang Kong). By providing the weapons from each character, Nameless can get closer to the Emperor. The reality, at least I think it is, is when all the characters were wearing white. I'm gonna watch it again tonight though. I think you should watch it again. i missed a lot when I first saw this movie in Taipei several years ago. I'm so glad that I got the DVD.

good luck!

[Bluesea]

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA

And BlueSea, just because Jet Li didnt kill Sky, doesnt mean he wasnt a 2-bit warlord. Or was his whole position in Chinese society a ruse?

In other words, did they made up the whole story for the Emporer? Or just the part about him killing Sky?

John, I'm not attacking you, its just a movie after all.:) Since you are trained in film, I'm sure you can see the folly in recording comments and opinions on a film that you yourself have admitted to not having viewed in a critical manner.

Anyway, according to the story, because of the danger of assassins, no one was allowed to within 100 paces of the King. No Name, originally a citizen of the vanquished nation of Zhao, has somehow become a minor official of Qin. With the vested authority of his position, he conceives and carries out the plan (with Sky, Snow, and Broken Sword) that eventually allows him to close within 10 paces. His life's goal, reflected in his martial arts training and his gaining an official position in the Kingdom of Qin, is to exact revenge.

Re: the scene at the caligraphy school. The Qin army is ruthless and unstoppable--everyone knows that. When the calligraphy master rebuffs the students to ignore the danger of the arrows, in so many words he is saying that the pen is mightier than the sword. If you understand that calligraphy is not only an art form, but is also a zen-like discipline with deep spiritual contexts, then you can see that by ignoring the Qin arrows, the school is making a statement to eternity as to the spiritual strength of the vanquished.

[JohnR_IN_LA]

Yea I guess he was a prelate since his fiefdom was part of the empire, I just considered him a "warlord" since he had his own little army and area of control.

So aside from a few details like that, I understood the plot. I appreciate everyone thinking i must not understand the far east zen-like stuff, but almost every martial arts movie (including this one) eagerly over-explains this stuff in full narrative, to us unwashed westerners.

Thats what made Kill Bill so good, it does the typical over-explaining, but then immediately shows how she uses the philosophy to get out of the coffin, or overcome years of muscle entrophy, etc...

[shah8]

You must intend to get a rise out of people, John...

That's what made Kill Bill so good, it does the typical overexplaining, but then immediately shows how she uses the philosophy to get out of the coffin?

Daaaaaaamn
and people talked alot of smack about The Matrix hmmm?

It's almost transparently obvious that you don't know what you are talking about, either that or you are stirring up emotions on purpose. I don't care, but perhaps we should come off this topic. There are good reasons why one person may not enjoy Hero, but if you want to talk smack, we can all have fun if you can give us a reasonably coherent set of reasons why you hate the film. If you wanna talk smack and act like you barely paid attention, and no, you don't have to be all zen eastern to pick up the plot, then forgive us if we treat you as infantile, and forgive the awareness that it might be deserved.

Yo Matt, was the 720p BEV cropped? There is a KBS version that's a cropped 1080i.

[JohnR_IN_LA]

My point was that Martial Arts movies (like Hero) tend to over-use the far eastern stylized scenes to avoid showing real human interaction.

For example, the romantic scenes are so stylized to show symbolic love, that you never see real romantic love happening.

Theres so many scenes that show fighting in a whirl of leaves and dancing on a lake, and too few like that first gritty fight between Sky and Nameless.

I dont know how specific you want me to get. 90 minutes, but only a couple of the characters really talk and interact. That pretty younger girl, how many lines does she have? 5? The slightly older girl has a few more, but do they reveal anything about the characters?

The discussion between the Emporer and Nameless helped provide some much needed real drama. but it was basically 2 stone faced kung-fu guys with their best poker face on...

Does that help? i donno i could go on forever about this movie hah

[madpoet]

Does no one feel like using Spoiler tags anymore?

[lnguyen]

There is totally different between Kill Bill and Hero. In Hero, those swordman like "Nameless" had to train for 10 years to enable to master the skill. In "Kill Bill" she had only a few lesson and become the master? is that a joke? "Kill Bill" is totally western movie trying to flick the use of sword without understand how to use it, pure fantasy action, and what the heck is walking around with your sword even in the airport? Is that stupid or what. Go ahead keep talking in the Kill Bill to make it so cool to the Westerner.

However, in Asia people seem not to talk too much in the movie and real life. They don't even show their emotion very much, except the Japanese seem to cry more. If not showing emotion is totally strange and unacceptable to the US then it is acceptable to the Asian eyes. If you think the girl "Moon" not to talk and show emotion very much that you think it is bad, then you don't understand it at all. In my Kendo class (Japanese swordmanship) the teacher encourage people learn through copy the move and action of the teacher then wait for him to explain it to you. When time comes you will understand the reason for that moves.

Do you understand that most of the people in this movie are warrior (in the movie) and warrior don't show emotion, they only show respect to each others. They bow to each other before the fight not like in Western "Go ahead, make my day" or "I'll be back" or "You'll be my breakfast" or some mumbo jumbo like that. That is the reason why this movie not cool or good to you.

Have you ever seen in Western movie, a duel with some one playing music beside? only happen in the Eastern movie, that is some thing our Asian people like.

If you think you got the BA in cinematography to get credit for critics this film, then I got bigger credit than you, I am an Asian and I am trained in that culture for my whole life.

[Bluesea]

Right, Kill Bill is a spoof, and Tarentino made no bones about that fact. Heck, he even used the Shaw Brothers intro at the beginning of the movie! IMO, Kill Bill has little or nothing to do with eastern martial arts.

John,
Have you seen Twilight Samurai? If not, I recommend it highly.

[JohnR_IN_LA]

Originally posted by madpoet
Does no one feel like using Spoiler tags anymore?

sorry, fixed it Madpoet ...

[Josh Z]

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA
My point was that Martial Arts movies (like Hero) tend to over-use the far eastern stylized scenes to avoid showing real human interaction. For example, the romantic scenes are so stylized to show symbolic love, that you never see real romantic love happening.

Theres so many scenes that show fighting in a whirl of leaves and dancing on a lake, and too few like that first gritty fight between Sky and Nameless.

I dont know how specific you want me to get. 90 minutes, but only a couple of the characters really talk and interact. That pretty younger girl, how many lines does she have? 5? The slightly older girl has a few more, but do they reveal anything about the characters?

This is the difference between Western storytelling and Eastern storytelling. Western storytelling is fixated on plot and narrative. Eastern storytelling is more poetic and figurative.

No one is forcing you to like the movie, but your insistence that it "sucks" is a matter of your own personal taste and prejudices, not a statement of fact.

[Bluesea]

Once you know the story, it can be enlightening to turn off the subtitles to get a clearer view of facial expressions and body language.

[veco]

Originally posted by lnguyen
However, in Asia people seem not to talk too much in the movie and real life. They don't even show their emotion very much, except the Japanese seem to cry more. If not showing emotion is totally strange and unacceptable to the US then it is acceptable to the Asian eyes. If you think the girl "Moon" not to talk and show emotion very much that you think it is bad, then you don't understand it at all.

I agree with you on this. I think unfortunately John despite his claims of understanding eastern culture, he is clueless. And the fact that the characters in Hero don't react to the way he feels should be the "right way" is a sign of his... well no other way to put it... ignorance.

For example, in a western wedding the bride is suppossed to be happy and smiley and be the happiest day of her life. In an Asian wedding, the bride is not supposed to smile at all during her wedding day. She is supposed to mantain a solemn and stoic image as this day represents a kind of bittersweet day as she is about leave her home and parents behind.

So, to someone who has not been to an Asian wedding, they might react as saying "I thought the Bride should smile more..."

[Matt_Stevens]

Originally posted by lnguyen
There is totally different between Kill Bill and Hero. In Hero, those swordman like "Nameless" had to train for 10 years to enable to master the skill. In "Kill Bill" she had only a few lesson and become the master? is that a joke? :rolleyes: Uh, did you pay any attention when you were watching this film? She was with her master for YEARS. Bill even told her not to talk back, "at least not for the first year."

Originally posted by lnguyen
"Kill Bill" is totally western movie trying to flick the use of sword without understand how to use it, pure fantasy action, and what the heck is walking around with your sword even in the airport? Is that stupid or what. Go ahead keep talking in the Kill Bill to make it so cool to the Westerner. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: The film is a fantasy. It's not meant to be taken seriously.

[JohnR_IN_LA]

"a sign of his... well no other way to put it... ignorance."

Why you guys always drop back to personal attacks just baffles to me...

Its up to the filmographer and writers to reach out and touch the viewer with an interesting human story, nuff said.

[madpoet]

FWIW, the 720p OAR sub'd version of Hero is outstanding. Really a beatuiful film.

-MP

[the_prodigy]

Originally posted by Crunchyriff
I dunno, but for me this movie PEGGED the suck-o-meter.
. . .

If I want 'art' I'll stare at my stuff or go to a gallery.

Yuck. I can't believe I wasted 98 minutes of my life on this piece of trash.

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA
This film had a boring, contrived, predictable story that was basically just a framework for some beautiful fight sequences.. I agree with Glade, the plot doesnt even really succeed in linking the fight sequences together.
Man this movie is a joke.

. . .

The acting and writing were both mostly bad, none of the characters were worth caring about. They all played their one roll that they know how to play...

. . .

It makes Troy look like a masterpiece.

Huh?

At any rate, did anyone else find the U.S. trailer of Hero to do serious injustice to potential viewers?


They say something to the effect of: "A soldier with no name and no fear seeks revenge against the army that massacred his people. Now to make the wrong things right, he must reach the enemy he is sworn to defeat."

Gosh, isn't this the big surprise of the movie?


The trailer was great for exciting people about the movie, but managed to be both terribly misleading and reveal a major spoiler about the film.

[Matt_Stevens]

Typical Miramax trailer. They suck. They are the worst. The absolute worst out there by far.

[bosng]

great film, just wanted to chime in that the miramax release is a travesty but the film "hero" ,the untouched by miramax version, is a home run.
beautiful imagery, kung fu choreography as beautiful as the cinematography and a story that resonates on many levels.


ignore list. love it. mmmhmmm.

[Scrimpin]

Add me to the "thumbs down" crowd too. I actually was enjoying this film until the goofy fighting scenes kicked in. Not as bad a Crouching Tiger, but getting close. I can't stand that floating in the air and climbing walls bulls%#t in an otherwise serious movie. I don't compare Hero to Spiderman or Matrix as they are obviously intended to be fantasy/fiction. Hero was not IMO. I also don't buy into the "Zen" explanation. Show me a Zen master who can float in the air or climb walls and I'll retract. A 'little' bit of exaggeration would be acceptable, but IMO the ridiculous fight scenes turns this move into a decent drama interspersed with bad comedy, and it doesn't work. On a more positive note, I did find the arrow launching scenes very impressive.

[the_prodigy]

Originally posted by Scrimpin
Add me to the "thumbs down" crowd too. I actually was enjoying this film until the goofy fighting scenes kicked in. Not as bad a Crouching Tiger, but getting close. I can't stand that floating in the air and climbing walls bulls%#t in an otherwise serious movie. I don't compare Hero to Spiderman or Matrix as they are obviously intended to be fantasy/fiction. Hero was not IMO. I also don't buy into the "Zen" explanation. Show me a Zen master who can float in the air or climb walls and I'll retract. A 'little' bit of exaggeration would be acceptable, but IMO the ridiculous fight scenes turns this move into a decent drama interspersed with bad comedy, and it doesn't work. On a more positive note, I did find the arrow launching scenes very impressive.

Fair enough. Let me clarify a few things.

First, in the beginning of the film, the story of Hero was explicitly stated to be a legend. This should establish that it is "fantasy/fiction."

Second, this movie is known to be an example of the Wuxia genre. See the Wikipedia entry for "Wuxia" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuxia) to read an enlightening discussion of the genre, including a specific reference to the "suspension of disbelief" inherent to the enjoyment of such cinema. In general, one can expect to see prominent elements of mysticism and magic in films of this nature.

Thus, complaints of the sort you provided ("goofy fight scenes") are endemic to the genre, rather than idiosyncrasies of the film. In other words: don't hate the film, hate the genre.

[randall]

I can't stand that floating in the air and climbing walls bulls%#t in an otherwise serious movie.
Better stay away from another excellent film then: House of Flying Daggers.

[Bluesea]

I'm a long time wuxia fan and liked Hero enough to double-dip the Japanese R2 version, as well as the Starmax HOFD LE. To tell the truth, it would have been simply awesome if they used first-rate realistic fight choreography for Hero. These new generation wuxia seem to want to be gravitating to that end. Wuxia has always combined the fantasy wire fu and opera fight/dance elements with the exagerated stylized acting common to the genre. Now we are seeing a higher level of western style realism in terms of acting and cinematography, but without the leap to realistic fight scenes as well. I think there is considerable western influence in both Hero and CTHD.

[dacoop1]

I just watched this movie for the first time last night, and must say that I thought the movie was excellent. I'm also a fan of CTHD, and have not yet seen HOFD, but I have to voice my complaint against the picure quality the R1 dvd had. Such a visual movie deserved much better than it got, which, at least for me, seriously detracted from the quality of the film. I realize that I'm picky about quality, but I can't really find myself getting immersed into a movie that's chock full of graininess and soft images. If I directed this movie I'd be livid about the terrible treatment of such a good work. I just don't buy into the "it's grainy because that's how the director wanted it" logic. There are better ways to make a movie look classic than making it look crappy.

[tbass2k]

I just don't buy into the "it's grainy because that's how the director wanted it" logic. There are better ways to make a movie look classic than making it look crappy.

I'm glad somebody else is with me on this point. Grain sucks, that is the bottom line........ I want my movies crisp and grain free(i.e. Matrix Reloaded, Gladiator, I Robot, LOTR, etc) I don't care how old the film is or what it is supposed to look like, grain is NOT supposed to be there.

[the_prodigy]

Did the movie look grainy in the theater?

[the_prodigy]

Originally posted by Bluesea
These new generation wuxia seem to want to be gravitating to that end. Wuxia has always combined the fantasy wire fu and opera fight/dance elements with the exagerated stylized acting common to the genre. Now we are seeing a higher level of western style realism in terms of acting and cinematography, but without the leap to realistic fight scenes as well. I think there is considerable western influence in both Hero and CTHD.

Interesting. I'm pretty new to the genre . . . could you recommend some good, more traditional wuxia films?

[Matt_Stevens]

Yes, the film is grainy on purpose.

[FredProgGH]

Originally posted by the_prodigy
Interesting. I'm pretty new to the genre . . . could you recommend some good, more traditional wuxia films?

Chinese Ghost Story is where a lot of people start, and it iis usualy easy to find. I personally think Bride With White Hair is one of the best- I'd say try those two first.

[Matt_Stevens]

I think the sequal to Chinese Ghost story is even better than the original. Both can be found in numerous forms on DVD, some which are good quality and some which are not.

[Bluesea]

Originally posted by the_prodigy
Interesting. I'm pretty new to the genre . . . could you recommend some good, more traditional wuxia films?

I'd recommend two priceless favorites from the Shaw Bro.:

Come Drink with Me ('60s)
Have Sword Will Travel ('70s)

Unfortunately, the best versions are R3 from Celestial/IVL.

[MBK]

Come Drink with Me is great, but if you are just getting into wuxia it may seem a little odd and old fashioned.

You should also check out New Dragon Gate Inn, Once Upon a Time in China, and Blade of Fury. These are all "new wave" wuxia and can be great introductions to the genre.

[Bluesea]

I just rewatched [New] Dragon [Gate] Inn a few days ago, and enjoyed it immensely. A much younger Maggie Cheung (from Hero) really steals the show with her sassy, sexy, kung fu attitude. There's a lot of fun and witty dialog going on. R1 available.

[Josh Z]

Originally posted by tbass2k
I don't care how old the film is or what it is supposed to look like, grain is NOT supposed to be there.

You are wrong. Read this:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/robertharris/harris122002.html

[FredProgGH]

Originally posted by Bluesea
I just rewatched [New] Dragon [Gate] Inn a few days ago, and enjoyed it immensely. A much younger Maggie Cheung (from Hero) really steals the show with her sassy, sexy, kung fu attitude. There's a lot of fun and witty dialog going on. R1 available.

Yeah, that is a really good one. Now I need to see it again!

[FoxyMulder]

I bought this a few years before it came out in America.

I have the Edko Hong Kong fullbitrate dts edition and although the pictures not perfect i find it very watchable ( i have seen a lot worse ) Audio is in my opinion reference grade, the sound mixing is excellent, quality is not determined by how low that bass goes and in this film its the sound mix and the uncompressed nature of the sound which is first class, listen to the library scene with the books, thats the best scene i have ever heard in any movie. I have dts editions of Saving Private Ryan and The Haunting and Gladiator etc etc and all the other usual suspects but for me this films sound mix is better.

As for the film itself, you have to watch this subtitled otherwise you lose too much and i think everyone does a fantastic job on the acting front and as someone who grew up with watching hong kong movies on late night british television i can tell you i get these movies and very much enjoy them only now instead of having to watch dubbed versions i can now enjoy them in their original language thanks to good old dvd.

I'm sure it will look fantastic on Blu-Ray but since it'll be many years before i get into high definition i'll settle with my plain old dvd versions for now.