Qualia Needs ISF??

[Ash Sharma]

My Qualia is now at 75 hours - I ordered a Stewart Studiotek 1.30 Gain Screen to replace my 6 year 9 month old Ultramatte 2.0 gain screen. The screen should be replaced by 1st week of January.
I noticed that using standard settings 'Cinema' Standard' 'Dynamic' on the Qualia the picture is yellowish - for DVD played through HTPC and also for Cable HD.
There could be three reasons:
a) My screen is very old and may have yellowed (although I did not notice using the bENQ 8700 on the same screen before Qualia was installed a few weeks ago).
b) The Qualia Needs ISF
c) I am more critical of the Qualia as it provides detail which I have never seen in a projector before (I do not claim to have seen many projectors).
I have read on the forum that Sony tweaks the Qualia very good before shipping so the question 'Does my Qualia Need ISF Calibration'?
I have scheduled ISF calibration in first week of January after the screen is installed but want to make sure that I Don't fix what is not broken.
Will appreciate comments from people who are using the projector.
Thanks.
Ash

[Michael TLV]

Greetings

Sony may tweak the unit, but how do they know what kind of screen you are using? It kinda changes the grayscale ...

Regards

[Nick Satullo]

I use the Qualia on a 123" Draper AT1200, an acoustically transparent (though not a perf) screen with a gain of about 1.2.

I don't notice anything askew about the colors on this combination. If and when the right person is around for an ISF calibration, I may opt for that, but, in comparison to my NEC XG1352LC (which had been professionally calibrated, if not by ISF standards), the picture is subtly but clearly a different level than provided by the NEC. I doubt seriously that there will be anything but a subtle difference after calibration, and that's not necessarily to say which I'd prefer.

Nick :cool:

[glenned]

And the answer most commonly given is . . . :

b) The Qualia Needs ISF

The Xenon bulb is "Blue limited" . As it ages. it gradually loses Blue and its color shifts towards Yellow. People are very sensitive to a yellow shift. Calibrating your grayscale will fix this.

Glenn

[Nick Satullo]

Originally posted by glenned
And the answer most commonly given is . . . :

b) The Qualia Needs ISF

Glenn

Given the limited distribution of the Qualia thus far, not many people will have had the opportunity to compare non-ISF Qualia with ISF-Qualia. I would be among them, and I own a Qualia.

It's probably premature to suggest that there's a consensus. We could likely count on less than two hands the people that we've heard from on this forum that are familiar with Qualia, and less than that the people that have had them calibrated to ISF standards.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it won't improve picture quality, but I think we're not quite to the point of collecting enough observations to establish a conventional wisdom on the subject. Chuck Williams always did the work on my CRT projector, and, next time he passes this way (though he's moving to the west coast), he'll do the Qualia. Hopefully, I'll have lived with the Qualia long enough pre-ISF calibration to offer my $.02 on differences, to the extent they exist.

Nick :cool:

[thebland]

If I remember, my ISF guy said the Qualia was pretty good out of the box. However, he overhauled all the settings and got it looking even more fantastic - improving CR and colors dramatically. I have 78 hours on mine and it is looking great!

[AnthonyP]

I agree with Michael TLV, and I guess Jeff. The thing is the image is part of the room, you just paid so much for a projector so why not get that final tweak to make it perfect.

[KWhite]

"The Xenon bulb is "Blue limited" . - nope. Xenon is VERY stable over its life. Native color is ~6100K. 35mm cinemas are 'suppose' to be at 5600k so the 'cinema' setting may be trying to shift the Qualia's color temperature a bit warmer. TV and other sources are probably set-up for D65.

[Nick Satullo]

Originally posted by AnthonyP
I agree with Michael TLV, and I guess Jeff. The thing is the image is part of the room, you just paid so much for a projector so why not get that final tweak to make it perfect.

They could well be--and probably are--correct. But I think that Jeff had his Qualia calibrated out of the box, so I don't think he's saying that he has made the comparison. I think he's just passing on the observation of the person that did the work.

I agree that after purchasing a projector that lists for $30,000, what's a few dollars more? However, that same rationale is why Qualia owners buy Lumagen video processors (it's the only one that outputs the 1080p24sf resolution that Qualia displays, so what's a few dollars more?), and I'm only saying that the jury can't yet be in on how effective ISF calibration is for the Qualia, only because we're lacking enough opportunity for effective comparison.

Would a Qualia benefit from ISF calibration? The answer lies in watching a non-ISF'd Qualia for a while, and then having the ISF calibration. I had a Sony widescreen HDTV ISF-calibrated and the benefits were negligible, if they even existed (and, although not Chuck Williams, it was done by someone fairly well reputed in home theater circles across the country). I will certainly spend the money to get it done, but then I'll make the comparison, because that's the only time I'll be postured to make one.

Yes, I purchased the Lumagen. That turned out to be a $250 audition, as, even when I got it dialed in correctly, it changed, but did not noticeably improve, the picture. The 10% restocking fee option came in handy.

Nick :cool:

[AnthonyP]

Nick it was not meant as an insult to your post. I can understand what you said. But my post used two simple premises

1) that someone that the qualia is expensive
2) any one spending that money is spending it because they think PQ is important

I admitted it before, I am not willing to spend that kind of money for a projector, but if I would and wanted the type of Quality the Qualia can output I would go the difference and get it professionally calibrated to get the best PQ possible.

Now if you would rather be able to do a before/after comparison, my curious side can also understand that

[Nick Satullo]

Originally posted by AnthonyP
Nick it was not meant as an insult to your post. I can understand what you said. But my post used two simple premises

1) that someone that the qualia is expensive
2) any one spending that money is spending it because they think PQ is important

I admitted it before, I am not willing to spend that kind of money for a projector, but if I would and wanted the type of Quality the Qualia can output I would go the difference and get it professionally calibrated to get the best PQ possible.

Now if you would rather be able to do a before/after comparison, my curious side can also understand that

I didn't perceive your post as an affront to anything I said. No explanation is necessary.

And I agree with you--when Chuck Williams or some other known quantity makes the Ohio rounds next year, I'm sure to get it done.

But I'll be doing it on faith, and, despite the the exact science that we call A/V improvements ;) (aka "tweaking"), I'lll make a judgment based on the most important criteria for me, i.e., my eyes.

Of course, I may be biased toward liking it after I've had it done, because there likely won't be a restocking fee . . .

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

[AnthonyP]

I'lll make a judgment based on the most important criteria for me, i.e., my eyes.


agree 100%

[Ash Sharma]

Thanks for the various comments guys.
No one seems to be able guess why I am seeing too much yellow! The theory of xenon bulb losing blue is currently disputed.
So, every one feels that ISF is the way to go – What’s a few hundred dollars after spending thousands on the projector.
As I posted, I have arranged a ISF calibration on the projector in January and will report my observations to prove or disprove the theory that Qualia is perfect out of the box or needs calibration depending an your screen or source etc.
Very interesting to note that HD2k’s are being calibrated by William prior to delivery to clients – what does this mean?
These kind of projectors do need careful calibration to show optimum picture.
Or
Manufacturers are tweaking them prior to delivery so the client does not need to do anything once they receive the projector.
Whether you want to ISF or not to save money is not the question – you may be disturbing the picture which is not supposed to be touched.
I am very confident of the gent who will calibrate my Qualia but as most may agree, there are not many people out there who know how to calibrate this projector yet.
Ash

[wm]

Soon there will be another option as well... stay tuned!

[Nick Satullo]

Originally posted by wm
Soon there will be another option as well... stay tuned!

Hi Wm:

Screen, projector, or calibration? Inquiring minds . . . well, you know.

Nick :cool:

[darinp2]

Originally posted by wm
Soon there will be another option as well... stay tuned!
Do you still travel? Qualias are pretty big (and expensive) for shipping around a lot IMO.

--Darin

[wm]

Darin,

Still working on that, it might come down to air fare and travel expenses vs. projector shipping. It also depends on how portable I can make the necessary test equipment. I still can't do an HD2K on site, because I don't have any way to generate the test patterns I need at 1080p from a laptop... We shall see...

William

[Ash Sharma]

William,
Have you calibrated a Qualia? How did you like the projector - Just curios to know?
Love to get your comments on the Qualia.
Ash

[Vern Dias]

Xenon bulbs are NOT blue limited. The color temperature of a xenon lamp is consistent throughout it's life, as stated above.

It has to be that way, because film color temperature can't be adjusted once it's out of the lab. :)

Commercial xenon lamphouses have no means to adjust color temperature, only light output by adjusting the voltage to the lamp.

I see no sign of yellowing, Ash. A simple way to identify if it's the screen is to hold up a sheet of typing paper and compare.

If you are seeing yellow highlights, it IS possible that your white level is too high. Check with DVE or AVIA.

Vern

[glenned]

Originally posted by Vern Dias
Xenon bulbs are NOT blue limited . . .

If you are seeing yellow highlights, it IS possible that your white level is too high. Check with DVE or AVIA.

Vern


Originally posted by KWhite
"The Xenon bulb is "Blue limited" . - nope. Xenon is VERY stable over its life. Native color is ~6100K.

Throughout the whole video chain, White is defined as the very specific color, D65. PJs mix Red, Green, and Blue light to form all their colors. D65 can be described is as a certain ratio of R,G, and B.

The last leg in the chain is the PJ. The Gain and Bias controls are on the PJ so that it can be adjusted such that when it receives the command to display "White", it displays D65 and at all brightness levels from White down through the darkest Grays. This is what a calibrator does when he sets the grayscale. All the other colors that the PJ produces are determined by the grayscale setting and the accuracy of the Primaries. If the grayscale is set so that it is shy in the color Blue, the image it produces will be perceived as being too Yellow.

In video calibration terminology the term "blue limited" refers to the fact that the light from Xenon lamps has less Blue than D65 does. They are limited from being at D65 by the color Blue. If the light from Xenon lamps were D65, its color temp would be 6500K.

If there is a Yellow cast at all brightness levels, which is what seemed to be indicated in the initial post, this can be corrected by calibration. Part of the calibration process is to use the Gain controls to set the PJ so that at 100 IRE, (White), it is projecting all the Blue light it can produce and then turning down Red and Green to the proper levels to create D65.

Once the PJ is in proper calibration, increasing the Contrast control further only increases the amount of Red and Green at 100 IRE because Blue is already maxed out. This could introduce a color shift towards yellow, but the shift would only occur at brightness levels somewhere above 90 IRE. Below 90 IRE there would be no shift in color. If this is what is happening, it is easily corrected using a test pattern from Avia or DVE to set the contrast. Otherwise, a pro calibration is needed.

I have measured the Qualia. It's limiting color IS Blue. This isn't saying anything negative about it. All light/filter combos used in digital projection have a limiting color. For the mercury based lamps, it is Red.

I share Jeff The Bland's impression of the value of having perfect calibration. Someone spending this much money on a PJ is trying to get the best picture that there is. The cost to calibrate this PJ so that it makes the best picture it can is minor compared to the cost of the PJ.

Glenn

[wm]

Originally posted by glenned
The last leg in the chain is the PJ. The Gain and Bias controls are on the PJ so that it can be adjusted such that when it receives the command to display "White", it displays D65 and at all brightness levels from White down through the darkest Grays. This is what a calibrator does when he sets the grayscale. All the other colors that the PJ produces are determined by the grayscale setting and the accuracy of the Primaries.


Glenn,

There is more in the current digital projectors. In addition to "Gain" and "Bias" adjustments, or their more correctly their equivalents in a digital projector, there is also a set of Look Up Tables, or LUTs, one for each color. These provide precise control over the greyscale tracking of a digital projector than the low and high level adjustments, and also precise control over the luminance curve ("Gamma").

William

[glenned]

Originally posted by wm
Glenn,

There is more in the current digital projectors. In addition to "Gain" and "Bias" adjustments, or their more correctly their equivalents in a digital projector, there is also a set of Look Up Tables . . .

William

William,

Thanks for the info. I presume that you are talking about reprogramming the gamma LUTs directly, or are you referring to some intermediate adjustment that affects them?

As far as I know only the DILA's and some Digital Cinema 3 chip DLPs allow access to the gamma LUTs directly. From your earlier post in this thread, I expect that the Qualia should be added to this list.

It seems to me that in newer single chip DLP, the grayscale tracking is so accurate that gamma shaping to adjust it is unnecessarily complex. (Of course, there are other reasons to tailor the gamma.) Typically, dEs from 30 IRE - 100 IRE are 2 or less, and dEs from 30 IRE- 100 IRE of 1 or less are not unheard of.

Glenn

[wm]

Glenn,

Directly, wIth my own software, and a proprietary set of curves.

Most 3 chip DLP's that I am familiar with also have LUT's. I don't cocern myself with single chip DLP's in general. This is a thread about the Qualia...

William

[rudolpht]

I would say, that if William is in the equation no one would wait to get a statistical sample of before and after. It's optimized vs ordinary calibration and the difference should be stunning if the JVC 1400x788 & 1080p results are even a fraction of the improvement on the Qualia. Run don't walk. Send tickets no slow boats etc.

I don't know if the different permutations of HD vs DVD & filtered vs will be available on the Qualia, but it is slick. Sometimes we want to quantify improvements which in many ways are subjective, but (and I hate to say it because the rates may go up too much when I get my 4K - hopefully this lifetime) the value proposition is well worth it on the JVC side.

Ash,

Assume you are waiting for the new screen to reduce variables (and not waste $ on current combo).

Tim

[thebland]

Oddly, the Qualia has been out longer than the HD2K yet William is not calibrating them (yet)?

....Is there a conflict of interest to do so?? If you are reading Willaim, are you planning on calibrating Qualias??

[Ash Sharma]

I noted the same, there may be conflict of intrest - I noticed William would not comment on Qualia's performance.
Or is it that a well calibrated Qualia will blow the Hd2K out of the water!! I sure do hope so as a Qualia owner.

[wm]

You guys slay me - all of these hidden motives, agendas, etc. Am I made of money? I should just run out and purchase a Qualia so I can develop my process for it? Did it ever occur to you that in order to be able to Optimize one I need time with it? Several people said "I will send you one" but no one did, until now. In each case the person changed their mind, most opting for the HD2K. I was provided with 3 HD2K's back in August so that I could develop the process for them. That's not a conflict of interest, it's simple economics!

I will NOT comment on a projector's performance until I am able to do so accurately, unlike some others around here...

So, you wanted a response, here it is...

[ckmartinez]

I feel compelled to chime in here. William is one of THE MOST honorable and knowledgeable resources in this industry. I have personally seen how he was been able to transform both an SX-21 and an HD2K into amazing projection devices, with proper color tracking and much improved contrast & shadow detail...something JVC is getting better at BUT has not yet perfected.

I'm one of the people who has been promising to send William a Qualia as soon as my Sony dealer can get one (which now seems to be sometime in January - Sony's delivery keeps slipping). I'm very excited to see how he can tweak this beast into something better than Sony is currently showing at their NYC Qualia showroom.

Since William now has a Qualia (from someone else) in his possession, I'm very curious to hear if he thinks it's ultimately as capable as his re-worked HD2k (which I think is stunning). Depending on what he finds, I may move my purchase decision over to the HD2K.

There are things I prefer about the Qualia - lens shift, brighter output for daytime viewing, etc...but I must say I have yet to see a Qualia properly calibrated to where it looks better than a "Phelps optimized HD2K." Time will tell. I await for Mr. Phelps to speak.

[jbm007]

Come to Chicago. You can see mine. It was calibrated by Dan Francis.
I now know what DOC was dribbling about. Its got 175 hours on it now and I think think the lamp is now stable.........

[JeffinChelsea]

Ash,
My experience is similar to other Qualia owners on this forum, i.e. the performance is excellent out of the box but can be improved with ISF calibration. If you want a couple simple adjustments to make between now and early January, I would suggest you try changing the Gamma setting to 3, bump the contrast to about 85 and brightness to 45, assuming your Ultramatte is still absolutely white (has not changed colors over 6+ years) and you are in a totally light controlled room with very low reflection. I am also assuming you are using Cinema mode with lamp on high and Iris on 2. If I recall correctly, gamma 3 resulted in a gamma of about 2.2 in my room prior to ISF.

[LJG]

Chuck:

I agree 100%, WM has done incredible work with everything he has touched, remember Sony had their PJ calc for the G90U and WM had his which vastly improved performance, I don't doubt he can and will work wonders on the Qualia.

Lastly I viewed the Qualia last week @ Sony NYC and was not impressed at all, you would think Sony could at least have the beast tweaked to the max.

Lon

[Ash Sharma]

Thanks Jeffinchelsea I will try your settings - on the way to Beijing today until 23rd.
By the way, I ordered a Studiotek 1.3 stewart screen - I should be installed in the last week of this month.

[Penton-Man]

ckmartinez,

Chuck - please check your P.M.

[Ash Sharma]

My Stewart Studiomate 1.30 Screen is up and working - thanks to Daniel Hutnicki of AVSforum.
Stewart Re Screened my 6 year old electrical drop down Ultra matte screen. I must add, Stewart did a great job - they are really are a top class company. Not only did they re screen but also repainted the housing. Seems like I got a brand new screen back.
I now have to move forward and get my Qualia ISF’D. Yesterday I watched I Robot -through my HTPC - the picture continues to amaze me.
I am asking my installer to ISF the Qualia, he is certified and technically super but has never ISF'd a Qualia. He seems to be confident about ISF - ing the Qualia.
WM might have got his Qualia - hope to get inputs/tips forum members on the ISF.
Ash