New VTF-3MkII H.O.??

[Eddie Horton]

I read on the HSU forum where they may be coming out with a high output version of the VTF-3MkII. Does anyone have any specs or further info about this new sub?

[cschang]

I don't think there are any specs out yet....it is being introduced at CES.

I am going to be there and will try and get some pictures.

[Peter Marcks]

Hello Eddie,

More details about this new High Output model will be available after 2005 CES. Stay tuned.

Cheers

[Eddie Horton]

Thanks, guys.

[Eddie Horton]

To anyone interested, there is some wild news about this thing at HTF and the HSU forum. Don't know if it's true or not, but if so.......watch out. This could be huge!!

[audionut101]

I wonder how many people are dreading their preorder from other sub manufacturers now??? :D I was so very close to a pre-order myself along with a few of my friends, but Im glad I waited.

subwoofer lifecycles are starting to become like computers....... you will have to upgrade them every 6 months!!! Its not like anyone really uses the performance in a dual xenon processor.....just nice to have.

[Eddie Horton]

Yeah, I know what you mean. So far, the VTF3-MkII that sits in my HT has never failed to impress, but there's always moments when you wonder what "bigger and better" could be like. If this thing performs anywhere close to what is being rumored, then I can have "bigger and better" and still stay with a product line that I love.

[jbhungvt]

http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1374

[johnlarsen]

Can't wait to see this matched up against the UFW-12.

I know that RDES is a big plug for the UFW-12, but what are the other advantages to these particular Hsu units?

[audionut101]

its going to be the whole sealed verses ported discussion again. I would think the Hsu is going to go deeper and with more output, but the av'boys are going to say the sealed sub is tighter and more musical......and then svs is going to say they even have a deeper and higher output sub than all of them....then adire will have to step in and remind everyone about the Parthenon.:D

boy is this going to be fun!! Who needs the excitement of reality tv, when we get to watch the sub wars start all over again!!!

[jbhungvt]

Originally posted by audionut101
its going to be the whole sealed verses ported discussion again. I would think the Hsu is going to go deeper and with more output, but the av'boys are going to say the sealed sub is tighter and more musical......and then svs is going to say they even have a deeper and higher output sub than all of them....then adire will have to step in and remind everyone about the Parthenon.:D

boy is this going to be fun!! Who needs the excitement of reality tv, when we get to watch the sub wars start all over again!!!

HSU Sub will be quick, tight, musical, and has high output and extension. You can have it all with the HSU sub. After all, all other companies are following HSU footstep.

[craigsub]

Originally posted by jbhungvt
HSU Sub will be quick, tight, musical, and has high output and extension. You can have it all with the HSU sub. After all, all other companies are following HSU footstep.

The Hsu will likely be a VERY good product.... but let's keep things somewhat reasonable... :cool:

[Peter Marcks]

I see the cat is out of the bag :)

Dr. Hsu is actually considering offering consumers the option to seal their subs via port plug, with proper equalization enabled to have a nice sealed subwoofer design if desired.

This new design is really incredibly flexible. You will see some evidence of that later on.

Have a great weekend all!

[cschang]

Originally posted by Peter Marcks
Dr. Hsu is actually considering offering consumers the option to seal their subs via port plug, with proper equalization enabled to have a nice sealed subwoofer design if desired.

Peter...Dr. Hsu actually mentioned the possibility of a sealed option for the VTF-2HO, but not the VTF-3HO.

[audionut101]

So it sounds like the good dr has thought of everything. He will be able to cater to both the sealed and ported groups. Now lets see if he can hit a grand slam and price this thing to really quiet the competition. I truly think if he prices it correctly, there can be a real shift in the marketplace for quite a while... and he can recapture a lot of the marketshare that he originally crated!

[Jack Gilvey]

HSU Sub will be quick, tight, musical, and has high output and extension. You can have it all with the HSU sub. After all, all other companies are following HSU footstep.
Funny how easily people "bite" on a few pics and some copy from a sign. This is already the sub to buy and will cause paradigm shifts in the marketplace.
I'd go further than Craig and assume safely that it'll be great, but let's relax the hyperbole a bit. We know it's a 12" driver with two 4" ports...and a turbocharger. Anything else we know? Anyone venture a guess as to what the turbocharger is/does?

[audionut101]

Jack,

I think EVERYONE- I mean everyone knows that Hsu doesnt hype his products. I have not read one negative or even sales/marketing statement about this man. This is so refreshing in this industry- whereas others do hype their products to no end. I am not saying that one type of marketing is right or one is wrong. All I am inferring is that I tend to believe engineers more than sales types.

So when the Dr Hsu says that the new VTF3-HO would be equivalent to 2 1220s I would take that for a fact. You can then go and look at the numbers to tell you what two 1220s output. Should there be hype on this product? How about all of the hype on the UFW12? is that justified? There have been specs on that for months now.

I think the guys at av123 are doing great things with the eq box and that was years in the making and it still isnt out yet is it? (hopefully soon though)

thats why I said all we need to know is price. :) If he prices this sub at $2K- then it wont sell. If it is under $1K, then I think he is definately on to something. With the eq flexibility for sealed and ported, along with 13hz output, I do think there may be somewhat of a paradigm shift if he prices it correctly. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think there are not any subs under $1000 that that cleanly plays down to 13hz, has built in eq for sealed and ported configurations, and comes in maple to help the WAF.

Now Im sure there are DIY options that will work better and would be even cheaper, but for 95% of the market (including myself)- no one wants to deal with DIY or even custom for that matter.
:) :) :)

Did I put enough simley faces on there to let you know the tone of this post?

[cschang]

I got to squelch that 13hz output piece as being a standard config.....it is NOT. It was just something that came up when I asked a "what if" question.

The sealed option was only a possibility spoken for the VTF-2HO...not the 3. It could be a possibility, but it was not explicitly discussed for the 3.

Another interesting piece I was told is that the wood finishes do not sell as well as the standard black....even at the same price. So they are wondering if it makes business sense to even have the option.

[Peter Marcks]

Curtis, you are right. The correct number to be reporting is about 12.24744871391589 Hz.

[David Brent]

Originally posted by audionut101
Jack,

I think EVERYONE- I mean everyone knows that Hsu doesnt hype his products. I have not read one negative or even sales/marketing statement about this man. This is so refreshing in this industry- whereas others do hype their products to no end. I am not saying that one type of marketing is right or one is wrong. All I am inferring is that I tend to believe engineers more than sales types.

So when the Dr Hsu says that the new VTF3-HO would be equivalent to 2 1220s I would take that for a fact. You can then go and look at the numbers to tell you what two 1220s output. Should there be hype on this product? How about all of the hype on the UFW12? is that justified? There have been specs on that for months now.

I think the guys at av123 are doing great things with the eq box and that was years in the making and it still isnt out yet is it? (hopefully soon though)

thats why I said all we need to know is price. :) If he prices this sub at $2K- then it wont sell. If it is under $1K, then I think he is definately on to something. With the eq flexibility for sealed and ported, along with 13hz output, I do think there may be somewhat of a paradigm shift if he prices it correctly. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think there are not any subs under $1000 that that cleanly plays down to 13hz, has built in eq for sealed and ported configurations, and comes in maple to help the WAF.

Now Im sure there are DIY options that will work better and would be even cheaper, but for 95% of the market (including myself)- no one wants to deal with DIY or even custom for that matter.
:) :) :)

Did I put enough simley faces on there to let you know the tone of this post?

And he doesn't post on here like some other manufacturers do picking fights.

[Eddie Horton]

Come on. Can we just talk about the sub? I don't care if it's facts or speculation, it's entertaining either way. What isn't entertaining is dragging other products or their designers/owners through the mud. I don't give a rats rear about marketing or how someone goes about it, because no amount of marketing affects how I feel about my HT. So please, lighten up and let's talk subs.

[Jack Gilvey]

So when the Dr Hsu says that the new VTF3-HO would be equivalent to 2 1220s I would take that for a fact. You can then go and look at the numbers to tell you what two 1220s output.
You don't have to convince me that Dr. Hsu knows what he's doing, I've owned a 1220HO/500w amp combo and know its capabilities. A sub twice as capable would certainly be impressive. It's just that things to run away quickly, like below:

I got to squelch that 13hz output piece as being a standard config.....it is NOT. It was just something that came up when I asked a "what if" question.

The sealed option was only a possibility spoken for the VTF-2HO...not the 3. It could be a possibility, but it was not explicitly discussed for the 3.

Thanks, already clearing up some misinformation about it.

:D

One smiley is all you get outta me.

[Peter Marcks]

Hello again Jack,

Any potential 13Hz mode configuration would probably only be intended for the "ultra" enthusiasts. I imagine that many people just cannot stomach such low and loud bass. :)

Cheers

[Jack Gilvey]

Wait, I thought "loud and low" came in a distant second to musicalishness or something? ;)

[audionut101]

Jack- so what kind of measurements did you get in your room with a single 1220HO? Now if we add a second sub then we just add 6db. I assume you must have something really killer in looks (due to waf) or performance to have replaced the 1220. Dont tell me it is DIY, because I dont own any tools! Now if you want to bring them to LA and help me build one, the beers and room are definately on me!!

SHAME on Curtis for giving us the wrong number ;) Peter is even bettering Curtis's 13hz figure with 12.24744871391589 Hz! So If Peter is a representative of Hsu, then I assume he got permission from the good doctor to post that number, so again I'll take that for fact.

Now we only have to clear up the sealed option for the VTF-3HO. Now this is something that I want. Peter, if you are listening, we all want this option on the VTF3-HO. Will most ever use this feature after we initially set it? Prob not, but it is just the 'coolness'/flexibility factor that all us gadget freeks love. It gives us the bragging rights to do so- so we can scilence those sealed vs. ported discussions once and for all. (kind of like having a car that goes 135 mph- Ive never gone that fast in it, but Im happy that I have that power in case I need it)

Now, whats the price????

[Peter Marcks]

Jack, the VTF-3HO with turbocharger will have TWO 4" ports in 18Hz mode. The subwoofer will still have useable porting even with one port plugged and a lowered tune. This is just a potential perk of the design. Whether Dr. Hsu wants to add another formal true variable tuning mode to allow for this is another story, and ultimately he will need to decide what route to go.

audionut101, we will certainly consider your suggestion in adding a sealed mode to all the High Output models.

Thank you

[Jack Gilvey]

Jack- so what kind of measurements did you get in your room with a single 1220HO?
No measurements, this was years ago. Been DIY since then. Nothing killer in looks, I'm not all that skilled. This one turned out ok, but they're more-or-less unfinished, utilitarian boxes:

http://members.rogers.com/viperoni/Audio/NewTitDVCarchive/12DVC2/JG12DVCfront2.jpg

Jack, the VTF-3HO with turbocharger will have TWO 4" ports in 18Hz mode. The subwoofer will still have useable porting even with one port plugged and a lowered tune.
Yes, that I understand.

[cschang]

Jack....that one looks nice!! Did you start getting lazy or something? :)

[Jack Gilvey]

Absolutely. :)

[audionut101]

jack- I second the nice comment. The gloss adds a real nice touch- a la HGS series. I did have stryke build me an av12 box a while back, but the only thing with DIY is there is no real resale value when you decide to upgrade- maybe my wife would like that option more though!

[cschang]

Originally posted by audionut101
.................but the only thing with DIY is there is no real resale value when you decide to upgrade-...........

True...but they make nice presents for other audio enthusiasts. hehe

[Faust]

Will the turbocharger work with my VTF-3 MKII? If so, will it be an optional add-on?

[cschang]

Originally posted by Faust
Will the turbocharger work with my VTF-3 MKII? If so, will it be an optional add-on?
No...it will not.

[Eddie Horton]

Just to throw in my .02 to Peter and the rest of the HSU guys: Give us the option to tune this baby low. I'm more of an HT nut than a music nut, and as we all know, soundtracks have become more and more demanding as of late. If this thing really is capable of around 13Hz usable output then sign me up. I don't care if it's 2k, I'll still buy one.

[Ddavidson]

The best way to get a 13Hz tune is to contact Dr Hsu direct. He makes the decisions on what gets released. The more he hears and see's requests for such a low state of tune the more chance there is of him offering it when the Vtf-3 Ho is released. (summer release)

Ddavidson

[Tex-amp]

Originally posted by Peter Marcks
I see the cat is out of the bag :)

... with proper equalization enabled...

Does this mean that the new amps or the turbocharger will have on board EQ. If so what type?

[cschang]

Originally posted by Tex-amp
Does this mean that the new amps or the turbocharger will have on board EQ. If so what type?
Tex....the current VTF's have an EQ switch for max output and max extension tunes. I think it would be the same thing for the turbo.

[Tex-amp]

Originally posted by cschang
Tex....the current VTF's have an EQ switch for max output and max extension tunes. I think it would be the same thing for the turbo.

Looks like my knowledge reflects my STF budget. :mad:

[Eddie Horton]

Anyone found a pic of the "turbocharger" yet? If so, please post.

[Ed Mullen]

Here's a quick run down:

1) The enclosures are larger (more internal volume) than their regular VTF counterparts, and retain the top cap design cue. Maple veneer will be an option and looks very nice.

2) There will be no spikes or baseplate; the woofer fires sideways and has a round black speaker grill cover.

3) Both the 10" and the 12" woofers are new designs with significantly higher xMax and thermal power handling capability. Dr. Hsu mentioned over 20 mm xMax for the 10" unit.

4) The VTF2-HO uses a single wide flared 4" port - rear firing. The amp is digital BASH with 350 watts continuous.

5) THe VTF-3HO uses dual wide flared 4" ports - rear firing. The amp is BASH with 500 watts continuous.

6) The turbocharger unit was not on display. This device externally extends the port length by coupling to the rear ports and then making an upward U-bend so that it fires forward on top of the enclosure.

The turbocharger unit will have the same wood finish as the enclosure. In addition to lowering the tune point, adding port length will likely overdamp the alignment, so there will be a custom EQ switch setting for both tunes, similar to the existing VTF series.

Dr. Hsu indicated the native tune for the VTF-2HO is 22-23 Hz, and the deeper tune with the turbocharger is 17-18 Hz. In the deeper tune, Dr. Hsu indicated the VTF-2HO is equal to the TN1220HO in terms of clean output. Don Keele measured about 92-93 dB (10% distortion limit) at 2 meters ground plane (before 8 dB of room gain was added) at 20 Hz from the TN1220, so this definitely makes sense and is easily possible given the enclosure size, uprated woofer, and large port area of the VTF-2HO.

The native and turbocharged tune points for the VTF-3HO will be similar to the VTF-2HO (about 22 and 18 Hz). If a port were plugged on the turbocharger, this would probably yield a 12-13 Hz tune while still retaining a wide flared 4" port for air flow. This would be an appealing option to some users, and in theory Dr. Hsu could offer a three position custom EQ switch: 22 Hz, 18 Hz, and 13 Hz. I don't know if the three tune option will make production, but you can definitely count two tunes with custom EQ.

Dr. Hsu indicated the VTF-3HO with the turbocharger is equal to dual TN1220HO in terms of clean output. That would put it at about 98-99 dB (10% distortion limit) at 2 meters ground plane at 20 Hz, again easily possible given the larger enclosure size, uprated woofer, and dual 4" flared ports.

[spyboy]

Ed

The placard on the VTF-3HO states 500 watts. If you haven't seen them there are a lot of pictures including the placard stating 500 watts, over on the HSU forum.

[Tex-amp]

Originally posted by Ed Mullen
Here's a quick run down:
6) The turbocharger unit was not on display. This device externally entends the port length by coupling to the rear ports and then making an upward U-bend so that it fires forward on top of the enclosure.

The turbocharger unit will have the same wood finish as the enclosure. In addition to lowering the tune point, adding port length will likely overdamp the alignment, so there will be a custom EQ switch setting for both tunes, similar to the existing VTF series.



Is the turbocharger concept the same concept that give transmission line speakers good bass out of smaller drivers and cabinets?

[cschang]

Ed....the VTF-3HO will have a 500 watt amp...not 375. Like spyboy says...it is right on the placard and confirmed by Hsu.
http://changpics.smugmug.com/photos/13841409-S.jpg

Also...Don Keele's report is almost 7 years old now, does not reflect improved drivers over the years, and he did not use a Hsu amp.

The units that were on displayed had the VTF3-MK2 amp and driver.

[cschang]

Here are some more pictures that I have posted on the Hsu Forum:
http://changpics.smugmug.com/photos/13841396-S.jpg
http://changpics.smugmug.com/photos/13841399-S.jpg

VTF-3HO vs VTF-3MK2......:
http://changpics.smugmug.com/photos/13841381-S.jpg

[Ed Mullen]

Thanks guys: 500 watts continuous. That makes more sense given the upgraded thermal handling of the voice coil that Dr. Hsu mentioned. I'll amend that in my first post.

Definitely, Keele's report is older but it's the only review of the TN1220 in print that used 2 meters ground plane output data (and even then you have to dig a little and remove the approximate room gain from the charts). I was just trying to give a general idea of output capability of both units, per Dr. Hsu's comparison to the TN20.

Maybe you could safely add 2-3 dB to the numbers for incremental product improvements over the last 7 years. Hopefully Yates, etc. can test these products at 2M GP and get a more definitive answer, but the estimates should be pretty close.

Is the turbocharger concept the same concept that give transmission line speakers good bass out of smaller drivers and cabinets?

It's not quite comparable to the transmission line concept. Just think of the turbocharger product as adding length to the vents to lower the tuning point of the enclosure. The U-bend, front firing concept is a way of keeping the overall size of the turbocharger compact vs. having the vents stick straight out the back.

[jjdche]

I just want to add to the point that Ed just touched on. When it is said that a certain subwoofer is equal to X times another subwoofer, you generally need to specify the frequency, and in the case of the Hsu subwoofers, the tuning.

For example, if you have one subwoofer that is tuned to ~25Hz and one is tuned to ~18Hz, the one tuned to 18Hz is going to have more output in the 18-20Hz range, but if the subwoofers are using the same driver, with the same amp, there won't be any difference in available output above 30-40Hz.

[Ddavidson]

Considering the product is:

1: Not shipping
2: Not in its final form
3: Has no price

Guessing about outcomes and comparison's seems rather pointless and typically premature.

Ddavidson

[TRC]

"Considering the product is:

2: Not in its final form

Guessing about outcomes and comparison's seems rather pointless and typically premature."

Hmm.. Do you think then that Dr. Hsu is guessing about the performance relative to the 1220s?

[Ddavidson]

He is giving people an "approximate" performance guideline for his design goal.

He is not giving out any "FINAL" figures because the product is not close to being finished and will not being put in production till he is finished. Anyone who was at the show knows he doesn't even have the new prototype amp or one of the new prototype drivers .... so tweaks, changes and improvements will all change by the time it hits production.

Mind you with his approximation about its expected performance you can expect like all of his numbers it will be "conservative". Lets face it people on these forums sit and procrastinate all day about a 2dB difference, so this guessing about actual performance is rather premature.

Ddavidson

[David Wallis]

Is this model going to be available in the Real Rosewood Veneer finish? My Aerial speakers in both rooms are in Rosewood so this maybe good option over buying another SW12 for what is my secondary system.




DavidW

[Enigma]

I would be interested in that as well. I have Revel F30's and C30 in rosewood that I would like to match.

[Peter Marcks]

Good evening all,

The more Dr. Hsu directly hears your opinion, the greater chance that you will have to influence his design decision!

Thank you for your great support!

[David Wallis]

Mr Marcks you obviously represent Hsu Research on this forum, could you post a definite Yes or No within this thread if he does release it in that Real Rosewood. I will order at least one unit for a listen if that happens.

DavidW

[jbhungvt]

I want more option, so a real Rosewood Veneer is a good option to have. I'm thinking of getting the new VTF-3HO with Rosewood Veneer.

[cschang]

I think the question would be how much more are you willing to pay for wood veneer finishes?

I talked to Dr. Hsu about this at CES. As much as some people are vocal about wanting a wood veneer or simulated wood finish(I want maple), they simply do not sell as well as the basic black......even at the same price point. This means they have to buy smaller quantities of the wood finish cabinets, which then drives the costs up.

In their showroom, people would see the "nicer" finishes, comment on how nice they look, but get the basic black, because "the wood finish does not match our decor".

[David Wallis]

Curtis I paid $8200 for my two SW12's, not to mention $24,000 for my front stereo pair. So what it sounds like is much more important than what it costs. For me its more about keeping the house colors the same as its only going in a secondary system not my big room.

DavidW

[cschang]

David....I totally understand, sound quality is most important to me as well, I just do not have a budget like yours.

I am not denying the importance of keeping the house colors. The question is how many of the rosewood or maple....or whatever finish subs, can Hsu sell?

Hsu knows people want the different finishes, but are the numbers enough to make offering them a good business decision?

[Peter Marcks]

Hello gentlemen,

A good solution to this issue is tricky. There is always two sides to the debate. One hand says that the consumer wants to have choices, so give consumers the choice, even if they have to pay a price premium for making that choice. The other hand says that it is more economical and practical to concentrate on what is preferred by most of the people.

This is an issue that we are still struggling with. I am not always in agreement with Dr. Hsu regarding what should be done to offer premium finish options, but I am hopeful that we will reach a common ground.

I really appreciate all of your input. Keep it coming, we love to hear it!

P.S. We also have some ideas on some ultra high performance flagship models (think $2k+), but I am not at liberty to discuss these at the moment. Feel free to speculate at will. :)

[David Wallis]

The question is how many of the rosewood or maple....or whatever finish subs, can Hsu sell?
I imagine a whole lot more than Michael Kelly sells with his excellent SW-12 in any color.
This is an issue that we are still struggling with. I am not always in agreement with Dr. Hsu regarding what should be done to offer premium finish options, but I am hopeful that we will reach a common ground.
Thanks, I will watch how this develops.



DavidW

[cschang]

Originally posted by David Wallis
I imagine a whole lot more than Michael Kelly sells with his excellent SW-12 in any color.

Yeah...and I wonder what Mr. Kelly's margins are, and how much goes to the middleman. :D

[Mark Seaton]

Aerial distributes directly to it's dealers. While they certainly have retail-oriented margins, they operate a somewhat lower margins than many, and do not have a distributor or local rep in the middle. 4-5 years ago I worked for an Aerial dealer, sold and installed many of their product, still have friends who are dealers, and casually know Michael Kelly.

[jbhungvt]

Originally posted by Peter Marcks

P.S. We also have some ideas on some ultra high performance flagship models (think $2k+), but I am not at liberty to discuss these at the moment. Feel free to speculate at will. :) [/B]

Hi Peter,

I know you're not allow to discuss the details....but can you at least tell us the timeframe when the flagship sub be available? This summer? This year, next year?

thanks

[Peter Marcks]

Hello jbhungvt,

Nope. Sorry. :)

Just remember that good things come to those who wait.

Cheers