Proceed Avp2

[indieke2]

I can buy 2 nd hand a proceed AVP. Together with the power amp.

Now for the moment I have a H/K 7000 for the home-theater and a Marantz pm 15 for stereo.

I am tired of switching!!!

Now some questions:

Would the proceed do as good as the Marantz for music? The Marantz is nice, but i miss sometimes a bit of warmth.

For Home-theater, is the Proceed that good! It should be much better then the H/k that is smooth, but deformes quite a bit the signal!


For 2500 € is this a good deal?

Thanks

[mtdking]

Are you talking about a Proceed avp2 or a AVP? There is a huge difference!

[indieke2]

No, no it is the AVP 2!

Combined with the Amp 5!

[mtdking]

Well the Proceed AVP2 is one of the best ever pre/pro to date! I have a AVP2 and it is by far the best improvement to my system. The AVP2 is a amazing 2 channel pre amp and when used as a dac it is better then most high end cd players on the market. There are no software problems, No relay clicking just pure sound quality. THe AVP2 on the used market goes for $2500 us. It is so much better then anything under $5000 out there. I have owned Parasound C!, EAD ovation plus, Krell showcase, Newcastle p-965, Anthem avm 20, and CAL ssp-2500. The only thing close to the Proceed was the EAD and maybe the Parasound. The Krell was the worst out of the bunch. Remember the AVP2 is almost the ML 40.

[indieke2]

Maybe I can get AVP2 and Amp 5 for a little above that price!

If you think the 2 channel sound will be at least equal to my Marantz pm 15, I will go for it.

But I like a sound that give details, but alsi give some warmt and "timbre" to the music.

[cpu8088]

oh yea the avp2 should be better than the marantz

go for it asap because there are not that many avp2 left

it is of course you are not worry about product support

[oscar1]

If you happen to be a multichannel SACD fan, the AVP2 may not be the best solution. it's 6-channel analog option requires the 6-channel analog input to be redigitized, PCM'ed, and re-converted to 6-channel analog output.

It's preamp stages may be amongst the best out there when compared to pre/pros and receivers but I'm pretty sure it doesn't hold a candle to a number of of multichannel analog preamps out there. I have the (original) AVP and it was blown away by the two "pure" analog multichannel preamps I've tried. OTOH, the AVP remains my benchmark for pre/pros (surround sound processing not withstanding).

[Christian]

oscar1 brings up a few good points. I'm a hi-rez digital fan (SACD primarily), so it lack of multichannel analog pass thru was an issue.

However, while oscar1 is correct that it doesn't hold a candle to multi-ch preamps due to the above fact, it's two channel performance is outstanding (almost up there to the preamps offered by ML - hehe, but not quite). You do state stereo performance, so I hope this is what you were looking for...

...cause that's a pretty darn good deal, if it's for both preamp and amp.

Christian

[rsbeck]

At the used price the AVP2 is going for these days, it is a screaming bargain, depending on your priorities. If you're trying to combine two channel music with multi-channel home theater and you want open, trasparent sound -- grab one quick. But, I wouldn't call the AVP2 "warm." I would call it neutral. There are some trade-offs. The AVP2 will not be upgradable, will never have Firewire, DVI or HDMI switching. It will have plenty of surround options, but won't have the absolute latest surround modes. If that matters more to you -- maybe the AVP2 is not the way to go. Its two-channel pass through is outstanding. If you are a two channel fan and you want to use the AVP2 as a passive pre-amp for two-channel while taking advantage of its capability as a surround processor,
the AVP2 is your huckleberry. If budget is not a consideration, then you can get it all, but you'll have to pay quite a bit more -- like three or four times as much -- and you'll have to wait until more surround processors come out. That piece isn't out quite yet.

[indieke2]

It IS a pitty for the sacd, but mostly I use it in 2 channel! I think most of the time surround in music is not natural!

Do you think that the sound comes close to the Mark Levinson amplifiers? I always dreamt about them, but they were very expensive! As I have a Crt, B&W 805 Matrix, 4 + htm old series more then 10 years old, Surround IS important for movies!

I will see the price I can get it for, if it doesn(t go up, I will go for it!

[indieke2]

I tried to read some critics on the net. Most are rather good, but my fear is this:

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the big, coloured sound, but i HATE an analitic sound!

I like it to be harmonic, musical, with a natural warmth from the instruments.
In french we call this "timbre", don't know the word in English!

I heard this on the Mark-Levinson series. The combination of the old B&W Matrix series (before the Nautilus) was great!. I only once heard a proceed Avp 1, and was a bit dissapointed, by the lack musicality! Very detailled yes, but a bit agressive to my taste! And I have to admit on electrostatics, wich are not my cup of tea! I play a lot of folk-rock, jazz, and I think that these kind of speakers are very nice to hear every detail, espacially for small ensembles, but misses the power and warmth of good life-concert! Transperance I love, but no coldness and more agressive!

Hope that you understand my dilema! It is fine to buy good gear for a nice price, but I hope that this amp, is more musical then analatic!

[Krobar]

MtdKing listed most of the big players in the highish end preamp scene, maybe Integra Research sould also be mentioned. EAD have a sound which IMHO might match your taste well although the price might be a bit high (A bit over double the Proceed). Timbre is the right word :)

[indieke2]

I don't know Ead at all! You are refering to wich model in particular???

[Krobar]

The website is here:
http://www.eadusa.com/

The model is the Theatermaster 8800.

[goldear]

Rsbeck:

"Its two-channel pass through is outstanding."
--------------------------------------------

RS...If I recall, the AVP(2) no longer has 2-channel pass-through (analog bypass). While I know the AVP had a pure analog bypass, I was told that the upgrade for the AVP2, using the Levinson No. 40 platform, now made it a completely digital preamp...including the optional 5.1 inputs which redigitize the signal.

Not that this in anyway diminishes the performance of AVP2 since it's two front channels are suppose to be identical to the No. 40...but even the reviews I've seen on the No.40 state that it uses high-quality ADCs, rather than any analog bypass, to account for more precise time alignment and BM facilities.

[indieke2]

This means that 2 channel sacd is ruined! As good the dac's may be, it cannot playback the caracter of this system!
Then I have to find something else.... The price also has gone up....

[rsbeck]

Originally posted by goldear
[B]If I recall, the AVP(2) no longer has 2-channel pass-through (analog bypass).

The AVP2 absolutely does have 2 channel analogue pass through.

There is also an AVP2+6 version that allows SACD and DVD-A pass through.

[goldear]

RSbeck,

You better double check this...because I can tell you that the +6 is not an all analog passthrough. As someone else already pointed out, the 5.1 inputs are regiditized for BM and time alignment (as they are on the No. 40). And if the two front channels on the AVP2 are the same as the Levinson No.40...than they too are not analog.

In fact, I remember a debate about the lack of analog on the Levinson...as some claimed this to be the same with the AVP2. This can also be found in several of the reviews on the No. 40, while my Proceed Rep. who sold me my original AVP also told me that the new AVP2 no longer had analog bypass. He could be wrong...but if the two front channels are identical to those on the No. 40 (as Madrigal even claimed, using the identical platform), than they should be the same. If someone else can confirm, please let me know.

From SMR on the Levison No.40: "One detail that may raise eyebrows among audio purists: the No. 40 offers no analog bypass signal path – all analog inputs are converted to the digital domain at a sample rate of 24bit 96kHz to enable bass management and speaker time alignment. As Voecks explains it, "Our A/D conversion is at such a high level of quality that it will actually sound better because of lower noise." Hey, I just report this stuff."

By the way, here is the description of the AVP2+6 from Madrigal regarding their 5.1 SACD/DVD-A inputs:

"Two Versions of the AVP 2 — the AVP 2 and the AVP 2+6

Multi-channel DVD-A or SACD compatibility - An optional version of the AVP2, called the AVP2+6, will include a new audio input module to receive and optimize a six-channel analog input from similarly equipped DVD-A or multi-channel SACD players.

{After these analog signals are converted to digital} via the very same high quality A/D (Analog to Digital) converters used in the No.40, all of the bass management functions and performance enhancing features of the processor remain intact, unlike simple "pass-through" connections."

[goldear]

Addendum to my above post:

After speaking to who was left from Proceed, he does think the AVP2 has an option for analog bypass for 2-channel...which won't make the end-user aware of it, even if it's engaged or not. He said it's complicated, although it appears to be a series of obvious steps, which include disengaging all BM (Subs/crossovers...make sure speakers are large), surround modes, tone controls and any other DSP functions.

He didn't have the full list handy, but assmued this was all that was needed. Sorry for the confusion, as I must now straighten out a couple of my guys who led me astray on this when I was thinking of upgrading my AVP to the AVP2. I'm actually surprised at this revelation since it gives a little more flexibility than the No.40, which is suppose to be a true audiophile piece, missing a significant audiophile option.

[mtdking]

I have a AVP2 and now I'm really confused! I read through the whole manual and it does not say anything about 2 channel bypass! Can someone clear this up!

[goldear]

MTD...do you have the AVP(2) manual...and does it mention anything about "steps" to engage analog bypass?

While the Harman rep I spoke to today seems sure it has it...he was also sure the manual explained all this, calling it "complicated" to engage. And I can't find anyone or any paper that has a definitive answer on this, either. I did send an email over to HSG so maybe I'll get an answer from someone else since this guy wasn't even exactly sure on how to engage it. That being said, I have seen that the 5.1 input for SACD and DVD-A is digital from Madrigals own paper.

[mtdking]

From the manual " All processing in the AVP2 is handled in the digital domain, Analog signals that are to be change in any way (other then volume) must first be converted to digital form" ! So I think you are right if everything is turned off then its analog pass through. That is all I can find in the manual. PM me and I can email the manual! Mark

[rsbeck]

Originally posted by goldear
[B]the 5.1 inputs are regiditized for BM and time alignment

You, of course, are correct. Don't know what I was thinking.

I wonder if someone could mod an AVP2 to accept Firewire.

It goes on to say ----

We have also made accommodations in the AVP-2 (both versions) for a future high-resolution, encrypted digital interface option....What we have done is to ensure that if such a connection is made possible, an AVP-2 will be updatable to accept it.

And if the two front channels on the AVP2 are...are not analog

Okay, I had a brain fart with the 5.1. My only excuse is that I never ended up using
the AVP2+6 for SACD and DVD-A.

But, I have used the AVP2 for two channel pass through.

I just read the manual about a month ago to refresh on this very topic. It said that if you want analogue pass through in two channel, simply do not engage any processing, turn the sub-woofer off, etc. I did it and I am no techno-wiz, so it is not complicated at all.

I am not at home right now, so I don't have access to my manual, but I will be home Wednesday and I will post what it says in my manual.

If I am wrong about the two channel pass through...I will have to stop sniffing glue.

I will post what it says.

[mtdking]

I'm not saying I do not know how to do it, I'm just did not see that in the manual. What page was it on. Does that mean you could use a 2 SACD player if you do not engage any processing? Mark

[rsbeck]

I don't have my manual with me. I'll be home on Wednesday and I'll post what my manual says.

[rsbeck]

Originally posted by mtdking
Does that mean you could use a 2 SACD player if you do not engage any processing?

Excellent question. If the manual says what I remember, I would think so.

But, that would mean no sub-woofer.

I recall a passage that talked about two-channel pass through and mentioned taking advantage of the excellent analogue volume control, etc.

If you connected the front L & R of your SACD player to the two channel L & R of the AVP2 and didn't engage any processing, and selected the two-channel layer on your SACD, why wouldn't the AVP2 pass the SACD's two channel analogue signal through -- similar to a two channel CD?

[mtdking]

I will have to give it a try! I read through the manual again last night and I still could not find anything that hints to that. I hope i'm wrong though...

[mtdking]

I gave up and called Proceed and they confirmed that there is analog pass through! If you turn off crossovers, Delays, and speakers have to be set to large you will have true analog passthrough for 2 channel SACD or DVD-audio. That is awesome news for me since I have been waiting to get a 2 channel SACD player but I really didn't want to sell my AVP2 because nothing can beat it. I feel like I just bought a new processor...

[rsbeck]

Excellent. Congratulations! I wonder if my manual is different. I will check it out tomorrow when I get home and, although it isn't needed to confirm what you were told by the company, I will post what I find. I agree with you that the AVP2 is a wonderful piece of gear and, from experience, I can tell you that the two-channel pass through is extremely transparent -- what goes in is what comes out.

[goldear]

It sounds like good news for all. What you heard from Proceed (MTD) sounds exactly like what the guy told me. Thanks for the manual.

[oscar1]

Originally posted by mtdking
I gave up and called Proceed and they confirmed that there is analog pass through! If you turn off crossovers, Delays, and speakers have to be set to large you will have true analog passthrough for 2 channel SACD or DVD-audio. That is awesome news for me since I have been waiting to get a 2 channel SACD player but I really didn't want to sell my AVP2 because nothing can beat it. I feel like I just bought a new processor...

You have that in writing BTW ? Maybe they are just telling you what you want to hear.

[rsbeck]

Here's what my manual says...

Page 4 Table of Contents -----

Under --- Special Design Features

Pure Analog Stereo.................................16

Page 16

Under --- Pure Analog Stereo

The AVP2 also includes an analog bypass capability for listening to highest-quality sources. The STEREO BYPASS mode allows a stereo analog signal to pass directly through the AVP2 volume control and back out again, without intervening digital conversion or signal processing whatsoever. You may want to take advantage of this capability for the output of a high quality phono preamplifier, for example, in order to keep the analog signal in its native form throughout the playback process.

Specifically, the stereo bypass mode is automatically enabled when an analog stereo signal is selected and ALL processing is defeated. This requires that:

*the left and right speakers are set to full range (no crossover)

*subwoofer is turned off

*no surround mode is selected (2-ch stereo is selected)

*the time delay is set to 0 ms

Whenever these requirements are met, there us no need to digitize the signal. Therefore, it remains analog throughout, being routed only through a high quality analog preamplifier prior to being forwarded to the power amplifier.

[mtdking]

My page 16 does not say that at all! Either does the manual I downloaded from Proceed website last year. Very strange. Is your manual and AVP manual and not a avp2 maybe. Mine AVP2 all over it. PM me and I can email you my manual. Mark

[rsbeck]

That's weird. Mine is an AVP2 manual. The diagrams inside picture the pre-pro with AVP2 on the faceplate. I PM'd you my e-mail address. I'll be curious to see the version you have.

[rsbeck]

Just looked through the manual you e-mailed. Mine is identical to yours through page 15 and my page 17 is identical to your page 16. It looks like mine has one more page, which is page 16 in my manual.

My page 16 has info on PURE ANALOG STEREO and OPTIONAL SIX-CHANNEL OUTPUT.

[mtdking]

Very odd! When I asked the guy at Proceed why that was not in the manual when I had talked to him a couple of days ago he said at the time the manual was printed pure analog pass through was not what anybody wanted but now everybody wants it with no bass management I said okay. I do not get it! Is yours a upgraded avp2? Mine is...

[goldear]

Interesting. I wonder if there is a difference between an upgraded AVP and a manufacturer produced AVP2? Afterall...the AVP did have the analog bypass.

[rsbeck]

Mine is an original AVP2+6, not an upgraded unit.

[jwhmd]

I am currently using a meridian 561 for all my needs with B&W Signature 805 x 5. I like the meridian/b&w combo but wondered if ead, bryston, krell, or Proceed avp 2 may be better for 2 channel. My system seems a little bright and maybe too clean. I like a warm involving sound. Any advice??

[rsbeck]

Without more information, the first thing I would suspect is the need for room treatments. Sounds like you may have a problem with windows or hard surfaces. Just a guess. Room treatments can make a huge difference.

[mtdking]

I had the 561 a few years ago and I found the same sound qualities as you did. The 561 is very nice but it can sound thin and bright on the wrong amp and speakers. The AVP2 was a huge improvement for me over any processor that I have owned for 2 channel. rsbeck do you think your manual is different because it is a original? They give me a new manual when I had it upgraded. I wounder if this is only on the original AVP2+6 units. This sucks because there is no way to tell if you are getting true analog bypass or not.

[rsbeck]

I don't know why our manuals are different, but I would bet the farm on a hunch that these units have analog bypass, the first manual -- the one you have -- alluded to it, people kept calling the company to inquire about it, they updated the manual to spell it out more clearly, and I got one of the later manuals. Anyone who defeats all processing the way it is spelled out above, will get pure analog bypass. I have compared the AVP2 analog bypass with the Meitner Switchman, and the AVP2 is, like, 99% as good as the Meitner. IMO, that's a huge compliment to the Proceed AVP2. Extremely transparent. Which makes the AVP2 the perfect candidate for mixing two channel music with surround for movies. At the used price, it is a screaming bargain.

[mahadave]

I also own an upgraded (not original) AVP2 with the 2+6 option. I am reading the saga on the 2 channel bypass with interest because I just bought a Jolida JD-100 modified CD player and will use the 2 channel bypass for listening to this piece. I would also suggest you check out MSB Technology for adding on a dedicated 5.1 pass through for any processorfor $385. See this link: http://www.msbtech.com/msb_home.htm . With this feature you don't have to worry about redigitizing the input if you don't want to. The MSB stuff is really killer from what I've read, though have never heard it. Martin DeWulf from BFS really sings the praises of their preamps http://boundforsound.com .

Dave

[mtdking]

Okay I called Proceed again and talked to a guy that knows what he is talking about. This is the deal, There are 2 different versions of manuals out there and I have the old version and the new version tells you how to have pure analog stereo just as Rsbeck describes it. So all AVP2, AVP2+6 upgraded and originals have this feature. When you use this feature the only thing the signal pass es through is the analog volume control, So this Acts just like a real analog preamp. The guy from Proceed said "In Pure analog stereo the AVP2 is as good as any Harman Specialty Group analog preamp that they had ever made". That got me really fired up to get a nice SACD player this weekend. Any AVP2 or AVP2+6 will support 2 channel SACD or DVD-Audio. Thanks RSbeck for your help! Mark

[rsbeck]

Glad I could help, glad the story had a happy ending, glad it turned out the way it did.

Thanks for calling Proceed and getting the info you did.

Mystery solved.

Happy listening!

[Ricky]

To eliminate confusion, Proceed could have created a "Direct" mode which automatically sets the mains to large and disables all subwoofer/dsp processing (and the signal would not even go through the dsp board, to be sure).

[oscar1]

Originally posted by rsbeck
... I have compared the AVP2 analog bypass with the Meitner Switchman, and the AVP2 is, like, 99% as good as the Meitner. IMO, that's a huge compliment to the Proceed AVP2. Extremely transparent. Which makes the AVP2 the perfect candidate for mixing two channel music with surround for movies. At the used price, it is a screaming bargain.

That's interesting. The original AVP didn't even come close to the Meitner as a preamp. I made a major committment to 5-channel SACD music so I'm "stuck" with the Meitner. I'm also stuck with a pre/pro just to do DD/DTS decoding for satellite/cable sources and perhaps DVD. (I need to compare my new DVD player DD/DTS DAC outputs directly to Meitner vs. digital to AVP DAC to Meitner. My room could use a rear center so a pre/pro "upgrade" would be useful but I shudder at the potential pricetag. Maybe the AVP2 upgrade (or used AVP2) would still be a bargain compared to any of the new SOTA pre/pros? I wonder if an AVP2 upgrade is still available ?