linux/htpc -- views from 30,000 ft. please

[mpilon]

I'm looking for a view on the state of linux+htpc, from a very high level -- I'm sitting on a pointy fence between puying a standalone dvr + dvd recorder or building a linux-htpc. please hear my tale ...

I'm honestly not trying to start a flame-fest here, but I read threads like "pcHDTV and the new HD 3000" and I'm left wondering, in general, how hard is it to get build a linux htpc that's at least as solid as my dish dvr?

-- I've worked on embedded linux projects, and took a VXworks+PPC -based laser printer and got it printing under linux as a demo project (I work for a printer company) ... not a new-comer to linux.

but the wealth of choices in the linux world seems to hamper individual efforts ... I would gladly follow one person's mandate of kernel, motherboard, video card ... if I knew it would result in a rock-solid HTPC. [and at this point am only interested in SDTV w/ DD 5.1]

But I'm not so linux-centric that I'll tolerate video or audio glitches ... I'm watching the movie, not the HTPC and really don't want an ongoing hobby ...

what I want is a dishnet -capable htpc which will allow me to archive programming to dvd [yes, I know, ain't gonna happen ...] -- I don't want to watch channels which I'm not paying for ... It just galls me to have to record on the dish dvr, connect that dvr (via S-vid no less) to a dvd-recorder, play the program back in real time and then edit it on the dvd-recorder and then burn an archive dvd.

I'm nearly ready to pop for a pioneer 520 hard-drive -based dvd recorder and will tolerate copy in real-time in exchange for a solution which is dead-solid.

So. what's the state of linux+htpc ? I realize what gets posted is problems+solutions ... does anybody have a htpc that just works?

Mark

[scowl]

There are still a few minor bugs being worked out for the HD-3000 but once they're fixed, there's no reason it won't give you a perfectly stable HTPC if you follow Linux's narrow safe path of only using devices that have been proven to work.

You also have to leave things alone once you get them working if you don't want any trouble. That's difficult to do because it could become a hobby. You'll always be tempted to experiment with new kernels and new versions of applications which are constantly being developed.

[tbdombrosky]

This is a great post because I think a lot of people are wondering the same thing. I can tell you my experiences with my Linux htpc. I don't do hd right now so keep that in mind.

I currently have an MSI nforce2 motherboard with an Athlon XP 2000. I net boot it off a server so it doesn't have any hard drives. The server is an Athlon 700. It has 3 120gb hard drives and 2 Wintv PVR 250 cards for recording of tv, storage of music and dvd backups, and pictures. Both systems run Mythtv. It is my primary system for watching tvs, dvds, playing music, etc. It works great. The only time I EVER have problems with is, is when I upgrade it. If I leave it alone (which I should do more often), it works perfectly. My roommates have more problems with their Scientific Atlanta HD DVR than I have with my Mythtv system.

To minimize problems, use the same hardware the myth developers use. For HD playback, I believe they recommend the following:

Intel chipset
Pentium 4 3.0ghz
Nvidia AGP graphics card (preferably FX5200)

By using the hardware the developers use you will minimize a LOT of problems.

I use Xine for DVD playback. It can play the ISO backups without needing to mount a loopback device.

I recommend staying away from CVS builds or alpha builds for any of the software you use if it's possible.

[mpilon]

thanks for the replies -- I mentioned the HD-3000 thread not to pick at it, but it's what I read first this morning -- there was 1 success story and many more w/ questions.

Tom, thanks for the word on how solid your system is -- that gives me some confidence.

any more testimonials / advice ?

thanks again,

Mark

[Gordon32]

I've had good luck with MythTV. I've got it pretty much all running and in use on 2 TV's now. I've got TV Recording/Playback, MythVideo, MythDVD, MythGallery and MythMusic all working and have replaced my DirecTivo, DVD player, CD Player and Audiotron. One day I will get around to setting up MythGame and possible MythBrowser. I'd also like to remove the hard drives from the front ends and make them boot over the network. I am using the standard Myth .16 binary packages for Debian (Sarge). I would also like to add one or two more frontends.

The only issue I can see with what you want to do currently is the DVD recording. There are a couple options out there, but all are sort of cludgey, I am sure this will get better with time. It isn't quite as easy as popping a disk in and pressing record. Although there is a nice looking one called MythBurn (I think that is the name) that lets you record right from Myth with menus and chapters and what not. Last I heard, it was an adventure to install. And there are a ton of different ways to do it from a PC using non-Myth tools.

As far as hardware:

1) Frontend #1. AMD 2600 XP, Abit NF7-S, Nvidia 5200FX, 512MB RAM. VGA output connected to Crescendo TC2000 transcoder to Toshiba RPTV. Optical output from motherboard connected to Denon receiver. IRMAN IR receiver and Tivo remote. Very happy with this frontend, no issues except I am still working on getting it as quiet as possible.

2) Frontend #2. Via EPIA MII-12000, built in video/sound, 256MB RAM. Connected via svideo and RCA audio to Sony TV. IRMAN IR receiver and Tivo remote. Pretty happy with this frontend, picture quality is great, it is a little slow though. Almost completely silent. No issues playing anything, but program guide searches and things could be faster.

3) Backend. AMD 1700 XP, ECS K75SA, 256MB RAM. 2 PVR250 tuner cards connected to 2 RCA DirecTV receivers. Receivers change channels via serial connections to "low speed data port". 2 more PVR250 cards and Sat tuners on the way.

[mpilon]

Gordon,

your setup sounds good! -- you seem to have gone the way I'd imagine I'll have to go in order to replace the satellite dvr: the htpc controlling the satellite tuners. but due to location I'm out of directv's market area (the middle of nowhere - directv gave up the rights to another entity and if I want directv I'd have to go thru them ...)

so I'll have to poke at the dishnet dvr to see what kinds of solid control inputs it offers, but I suspect none.

If I go w/ IR/remote blaster then I _think_ I'd want some feedback that a command to the dvr was actually executed ... it sounds like work to scan the video for text elements so to pickup the channel/title/time banner which overlays the screen w/ each channel change ... to know that a channel change happened as ordered and didn't go off into the weeds.

those 'low speed data ports' sound damned handy ...

thanks for the word. I'm still wrestling w/ the $$/time/agravation/adventure equation ... that pioneer DVR would allow me to off-load the hard drive in the dish dvr sooner, but then the pioneer would be obsoleted when I did eventually build the htpc ... decisions, decisions ...

maybe I can go the direcTv route when I finally decide I need HDTV.

thanks again, I do appreciate hearing others' success stories.

BTW, a permanent link / topic to the mythtv docs should be placed at the top of the thread lists here -- some repository of general purpose HOWTOs to help newcomers get started.

Mark

[yams]

Just to clear a few things up about the DVD recording.

-Mythtvburn allows you to pick recordings from mythweb.
-Nuv2Disc is a 3rd party application that attempts to integrate with the frontend and can be used entirely with a remote.

The 3000 card is still new and there are still a few bugs to work out, but overall that card is pretty stable. Also something to keep in mind is that some of the questions are from people new to htpc and also new to linux.

If you are only interested in SDTV then you should have no troubles as that route is well documented.
Also if you are not comfortable with linux then give knoppmyth a try, it should make setup very simple for you.


Finally I am also very happy with my mythtv setup, in fact I have become a bit bored recently. The setup is so stable I have nothing to tinker with.

-jm

[Gordon32]

Wow, thanks for the heads up on Nuv2Disc, I know what I'll be playing with this weekend :)

[maverick_geek]

I am running a Mobile Athlon 2500 w/ a nforce mATX board, chaintech AV710 audio, nvidia 5200. I am running the latest gentoo distribution. I will second "tbdombrosky" in that it is really stable until I get the itch to upgrade when depending on the complexity of the upgrade and the level it is at it could be a few days work to get it all normal again.

I have had it for about 4 months. No HDTV though, I use mythTV for music and DVD playback to a projector... After meddling with it in the first month I have left it alone and it works like any appliance.

I must say that the initial tweaking and install needs quite a bit of knowledge and/or lots of googling. But with your background and interest it should not be a problem, provided you are willing to spend the time.

[Troubleshooter]

IMO, Still not quite there. Myth is fantastic but getting things going is lots of work. Now the response from many will be 'Knoppmyth' which is totally true but if you want to do something outside of its scope, it's lots of work :) Fantastic features, pain in the neck if you want to upgrade something or run hardware thats even minorly out of the very mainstream. Gentoo Ebuilds are not the solution ( I sense the Gentoo guys itching to tell me how wrong I am. I -LOVE- Gentoo, Ebuilds are still a pain in the neck on a machine you don't wanna mess with). If you can do the work, its great, but its no replacement for a settop box yet. My fileserver has been running for 207 days (power outtage) running Gentoo, My Myth box has been running about 50 (still great IMO!) as an example, so I'd go as far as saying that it's stable but getting there was serious work.
-Trouble

[maverick_geek]

No disagreement there Troubleshooter, it can be a pain sometimes tracking down problems. Sometimes I think I put up with it because it is a control thing. Atleast I know in the worst case I can dig in to whatever level of detail to figure it out rather than be on hold with canned tech support ;)

For instance I struggled for a couple of days getting the optical SPDIF working, part of it was understanding ALSA which was new to me :)

Ebuilds have worked so far for me. This HTPC was my first attempt at using gentoo. The next major upgrade will tell me how good it really is.

[chrisbirkinshaw]

I have an 800 MHz Duron (Redhat 9) running as my mythtv backend with 7x 60GB drives configured as a RAID 5 array (due for a n upgrade to 250GB drives soon). My frontend is linked by a wireless network and runs Gentoo on an Athlon XP2200, connected by DVI from an ATI card to my 16:9 LCD projector. The frontend is diskless, loading it's kernel from a CF card and then booting wirelessly over the network. I have an ATI USB RF control receiver attached to the backend, which transmits control sequences to a LIRC client in the frontend accross the network.

I run brutefir on the frontend to implement digital crossovers for bass management, and am working at integrating digital room correction.

I would agree that everything works fine but I keep upgrading it and breaking everything - this pisses off my girlfriend no end!

Chris

Originally posted by maverick_geek
I am running a Mobile Athlon 2500 w/ a nforce mATX board, chaintech AV710 audio, nvidia 5200.


What MB are you using? Have you undervolted the CPU? What heatsink do you use and how quiet is your setup?

[mpilon]

thanks for the replies - I'm going to go w/ a pioneer 520 standalone [80gb] video recorder for now. It sounds like a standard def HTPC can be quite stable, but I'm just not up to undertaking it just yet.

I'll probably be more inclined when we see how the satellite HDTV providers shake out, and what it will take to interface to the available equipment.

thanks again,

Mark

[maverick_geek]

Originally posted by chrisbirkinshaw

I run brutefir on the frontend to implement digital crossovers for bass management, and am working at integrating digital room correction.

I would agree that everything works fine but I keep upgrading it and breaking everything - this pisses off my girlfriend no end!


Yeah this has made me think about having a separate test setup to "stage" changes before applying it to the HTPC. A QA process and a release plan ;)

Experimenting with DRC is on the horizon for me...

Originally posted by chrisbirkinshaw
What MB are you using? Have you undervolted the CPU? What heatsink do you use and how quiet is your setup? [/B]

BIOSTAR AMD M-ATX M7NCG400 is the motherboard. The later revs of this board support the mobile athlon. It still mis-recognizes them but atleast provides all the bios options to set the voltage and frequencies.

I am running undervolted with the ancient Zalman 7000 series (flower) type heatsink I had lying around from an old upgrade where it did not fit.

I have a single 120mm fan with a speed controller blowing across it, removing the 2 noisy 60mm fans that came with the case. It is attached with a jury-rigged bracket from a PCI slot cover cut down :)

I run the fan speed very low and have a very quiet PC. This led to a few days of calibration where I would adjust the clock and voltage to get a stable operating point that matched the cooling capacity. If you pushed the voltage/frequency too high the cooling will be insufficient and the temperature will not stabilize. Working this compromise I have a setup that runs stable and is quiet. I have overclocked it when the gentoo builds take too much time by popping the cover and running the fans on high.

These mobile chips allow you tremendous flexibility to pick your poison...