AVS Forum Archive 2 - PSIP Changes may cause a need to re-scan (2/1/05 FCC Deadline)

Nitewatchman

01-14-05, 12:04 PM

I can report that folks with certian receivers in my area are currently having problems with two stations which have presumably changed something in their PSIP tables recently. These issues are not fixed/fixable by rescanning for channels.

One of the stations is no longer decodable(even after rescanning) by at least some models of Samsung receivers(I don't know what all models, but SIRT-150 is one), other receivers may be affected as well. Receivers that ARE still seeing them, no longer see them on their remapped channel(allways 19-1 previously), only on the RF channel. I used to see them on 29-2 with DTC-100 with channel remapping(off air guides feature) turned off, They are now showing up as 29-3 for anyone who is seeing them + getting the "info" displayed off air.

The other station is not decodable on Zenith HDV420 receivers(including mine, even after rescanning/etc). Other receivers may be affected, but we haven't gotten a lot of reports about it yet on our local thread. I don't know about other receivers, but I do know I'm still seeing it just fine with DTC-100 with the "off air guides" feature turned off on 18-2. (channel remapping turned OFF). "normally" they show up on 18-2 RF channel, 26-1 remapped. This is the first time I can recall noticing an "assumed" PSIP issue effect the HDV420.

Several of us have sent correspondance to those stations engineering staffs about the issues in the past week, but, I don't think anyone has received a reply so far.

We also have two local stations which as far as anyone can tell, have NEVER so far, sent any(or properly anyway) form of channel remapping info via PSIP. They have been on air since, on or just before 5/1/2002. While this isn't a problem for me, it has been a problem for some using equipment that gets EPG info off the sat, including for DVR recordings.

I have also noticed several other stations in the area have presumably recently(within the last few weeks or so) made changes in their PSIP tables, all of which have seemingly went smoothly. The only way I can tell with my receivers that something "happened" with those, is that on DTC-100 with channel remapping off, some of the minor channel numbers have switched around :

One station on RF 50 used to show up 50-2(HD), 50-3(SD), now shows up 50-3(SD), 50-4(HD). Via PSIP/Channel remapping, it's still 2-1(HD), 2-2(SD), as allways. EIA-708 captions are also now working from this station on its HD service(not the SD service) on HDV420 box, which ONLY supports 708 "digital" captions. This station is only the third station(out of 15 local DTV stations) in the area for which this is the case. Well, 708 captions also work with one of the Fox HD afffilates in the area - but just through the splicer. Via the other Fox affilaite(The station mentioned above on RF 29 currently having the PSIP problem with Samsung boxes), EIA-708 had never worked before through the splicer via HDV420 box -- Until NOW, that is.

A station on RF ch 41 - Used to show up as 41-1(HD), and 41-2(SD), now it's 41-3(HD), 41-4(SD). Via channel remapping, it's 7-1(HD)+7-2(SD) as normal.

A station on RF ch 35 Used to show up as 35-1, now it's 35-3. Channel remapping as normal, 5-1.

Larry Kenney

01-14-05, 03:30 PM

I have two receivers... one that's built into my Sony KD-34XBR2 and my HiPix card in my computer.

While others have reported problems on some stations that have made the PSIP changes, both of my receivers haven't had any problems. However, I notice that with the HiPix receiver some of the stations show up with duplicate channels now. Stations with -1 and -2 channels, show up as -3 and -4 as well. -1 and -3 are identical and -2 and -4 are identical.

One station, KTLN up in Novato on channel 47-1, has a good signal of 77 to 80 in here, but for the past two months I've got a blank screen and no audio from them on the Hi-Pix and "No Signal" on the Sony. I've written to them, they've responded with thanks for the report, but nothing has changed. I can tell that the Sony sees the signal, because it pauses for about 10 seconds before it comes up with the "No Signal" indication. Apparently it just can't detect what it's receiving.

Larry
San Francisco

w9wi

01-15-05, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by w9wi
WSMV-DT made this change a couple of weeks ago. I'm only aware of one viewer problem.

OK, make that two viewer problems... the other one being me...

Hadn't tried to watch our own station on my own STB since the change. It didn't work. Rescanning the channels brought it back - it also fixed the first virtual channel on Pax. (Pax has four virutal channels here, and their second/third/fourth were still working, only the first was out... I suspect Pax is programmed similarly in other markets.)

I'm using the Wal-Mart "USDigital" box. Looks like those having this box should expect to rescan.

spwace

01-16-05, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by bdfox18doe
So far for us..dynamic causes some problems with a few receivers..not sure
we'll stay dynamic, as we won't be making last minute changes..And we do
a psip download from decisionmark once per day.

I know of two receivers that have problems handling dynamic PSIP. The DTC-100 with the last software upgrade will go to a black screen when table version numbers are incremented, and the Harris ARX-H200 with the Samsung electronics puts up a graphic that says "Updating channel map" every time the EITs roll over (every three hours).

foxeng

01-17-05, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I have also noticed several other stations in the area have presumably recently(within the last few weeks or so) made changes in their PSIP tables, all of which have seemingly went smoothly. The only way I can tell with my receivers that something "happened" with those, is that on DTC-100 with channel remapping off, some of the minor channel numbers have switched around :

From the examples that you posted it would appear that your receiver, in the "unmapped mode" reads the actual program number of the stream and not the virtual minor channel as does other receivers when a major channel remap is not used, as you also pointed out. The law now requires that video start on program stream 3 and program streams 0, 1 and 2 are now reserved for other functions within the data stream and your examples bear that out. Many stations did not/do not still understand that the stream program number isn't the same as the virtual minor channel number. In my market several of the stations used program 1 for video and mapped it as minor channel 1, instead of the old standard of program 2 remapped to minor channel 1. One station here still uses stream program 0 for video remapped to virtual minor stream 2 and program stream 1 remapped to minor channel 1 and many receivers either do not pick up that stream or it causes receivers to lock up and require rebooting.

I hope stations are now figuring it all out, but I am afraid starting the EPG data at the same time may break some of the stuff that has just been figured out and I think your post touches on some of that also. I do not think we are finished with this. For a while, it will only get worse before it gets better, causing more consternation among viewers who are not aware of what is happening. We will all need to keep our tempers and be responsive.

Alan Gordon

01-17-05, 03:45 PM

Forgive me for asking a stupid question as I may be mistaken how this all works, but I have to ask nonetheless.

I have a Hughes HTL-HD DirecTV receiver and I use the "Local Area Network" function to put my DMA and a second neighboring DMA's guide info into my guide. However, I also have a couple of other neighboring DMA's channels that I add to my guide considering my digital OTA (and sometimes analog) reception is spotty.

Now, I thought that PSIP was something that was embedded in the digital stream that (among other things) supplied guide data to the receivers. However, with the exception of the channels that were included in the "Local Area Network" function, none of the digital channels I can pick up OTA seem to offer guide date whenever I tune to that channel. Is this a hardware problem, or have just not embraced that particular use yet?!

~Alan

foxeng

01-17-05, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Alan Gordon
Now, I thought that PSIP was something that was embedded in the digital stream that (among other things) supplied guide data to the receivers. However, with the exception of the channels that were included in the "Local Area Network" function, none of the digital channels I can pick up OTA seem to offer guide date whenever I tune to that channel. Is this a hardware problem, or have just not embraced that particular use yet?!

Many stations have not started sending the EPG data part of PSIP. That is not required until Feb 1. If you are not seeing it from a station, then they more than likely they haven't started sending it yet.

jswclw

01-17-05, 04:44 PM

In Washington DC area, our NBC station made changes to be in compliance, and added a second sub-channel at the same time. Unfortunately, my Samsung SIR-T150 has been unable to decode the main sub-channel ever since. It can only decode the second sub-channel - a weather channel. The folks there are aware of the problem and giving it some attention, but since it appears to be mostly limited to a T150 problem... Well, lets just say there are bigger fish.

plasmamaniac

01-17-05, 04:44 PM

The way I understand it PSIP data is sent to ZAP2IT from local stations, they do their thing and send it to Directv. If the local stations sends no info or wrong info, then it will be sent along to Directv.

bdfox18doe

01-17-05, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by foxeng
Many stations have not started sending the EPG data part of PSIP. That is not required until Feb 1. If you are not seeing it from a station, then they more than likely they haven't started sending it yet.

Not Quite Charles..

Hughes HTL-HD does not read OTA EPG..most directv units don't as directv
stipulates the use their EPG and NOT OTA..And if directv doesn't carry that station, (as with our WCCU) the viewer gets no data..

same with my Zenith 520 and sony 300

foxeng

01-18-05, 06:28 AM

bdfox18doe

01-18-05, 06:52 AM

Yea, I have one of those, forgot about that one..It's one of the few that do..too bad we're being FORCED to provide full and proper EPG, yet the CE mfg's don't have to read it..

Alan Gordon

01-18-05, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by bdfox18doe
Not Quite Charles..

Hughes HTL-HD does not read OTA EPG..most directv units don't as directv
stipulates the use their EPG and NOT OTA..And if directv doesn't carry that station, (as with our WCCU) the viewer gets no data..

same with my Zenith 520 and sony 300

Thanks! That makes a lot of sense since one of the channels I can pick up OTA (on occasion) is WFSU-DT out of Tallahassee that (according to an employee on here) broadcasts their EPG guide data.

Since that is the way that most of DirecTV's receivers work, they should add a function where you can add your two "Local Area Networks" like they do currently, but add a function that allows you to select the guide data and channel information to specific channels from their "Local Area Networks" list. Of course, there is still the fact that two stations in my DMA have since added digital channels that does not show up on my "Local Area Networks", which is kinda annoying since they evidently do not update their lists very often.

And if directv doesn't carry that station, (as with our WCCU) the viewer gets no data..

However, I am kind of curious about this comment since both my DMA (Albany, GA, DMA #147) which I use as my "Primary" "Local Area Network" and my neighboring DMA (Columbus, GA, DMA #125) that I use as my "Secondary" "Local Area Network" are both not currently available on DirecTV along with the fact that I've played with this function before and used both the Macon, GA (DMA #119) and Dothan, AL (DMA #172) DMAs on there, and Macon will be up on DirecTV sometime this month (supposedly) and Dothan probably won't be for a while.

~Alan<~~~~~~~Whose PSIP question became a DirecTV question...

Nitewatchman

01-18-05, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by foxeng
I hope stations are now figuring it all out,

So do I.

I do have some good news to "update" my earlier report that would seem to indicate, that at least it's happening to some degree. The 2 stations(RF 29, RF 18) in my area that were having PSIP issues with some receivers have now both apparently fixed the problems. As far as we can tell so far, the datastreams can now be decoded on those receivers, "proper" remapping is occuring, with analog channel number as major channel number, and the minor channel number as X-1.(Each station in this case is running a single program service).

Concerning EPG info via PSIP -- I was especially surprised late last summer when I read about the EPG requirement. While I+my family would certianly benefit from EPG data via PSIP from all stations in my area, I've been doing just fine without it for over 3 years from MOST of the stations in my area. And it doesn't seem quite right to me forstations to be forced send it, especially considering most stations aren't(up until now at least) .... For that matter, It doesn't seem right to me to "force" stations to use the analog channel # for the major channel number, either. This oftentimes seems to confuse viewers concerning what antennas they should buy, if they don't understand that the acutal RF channel(which could be VHF/UHF) may be on a different band than the remapped Channel # .... Anyway, at this point I'm happy as long as I get good video/audio, and stations can manage to keep a decent signal on the air, although at this point as long as the analogs are still on the air, I suppose I can't really complain too much either ...

However, On the other hand, in addition to the "inconvienance" and increased confusion for viewers, I also feel it's not fair to stations which ARE sending EPG+proper time/date info if viewers can't *use* it in a effective manner because other stations in the area aren't sending proper time/date info. A couple of stations in the area here HAVE been sending proper EPG info via PSIP, for a couple of years now -- But, with all the other stations sending improper clock info, I've found it makes the guide info quite a bit less "useable", on DTC-100 at least. For that, and "other reasons", I've mostly left the "off air guides" feature of DTC-100 turned off. I'm going to try turning it on again soon, to see how things are going. I must admit, it will be awfully nice when I can get guide info for the OTA locals(and proper time/date info) from ALL the stations someday. While I do use E*, I currently only use it for SD(and not all that often really, OTA is my primary source for TV programming, seems to be the case for other family members as well), and I will probably never have any reason to pay extra for LIL, therefore I certianly won't be getting any guide info for the locals off the sat ....

So, as usual, it seems there is allways a good amount of "grey area" involved with almost anything involving DTV transistion ...

BTW, Zenith HDV420(ATSC only, OTA only) also does not support EPG. Oh, I'm sure everyone already knows this, but of course, DTC-100 is a D*+OTA receiver which does Off air EPG, but the ATSC/NTSC and Sat receivers do not do "integrate" - They are completely seperate. I've never used the sat receiver on mine.

spwace

01-18-05, 08:44 PM

The are a couple of reasons for maintaining the stations analog channel numbers. The stations have a considerable investment in their association with that number, it is in fact their brand and they didn't want to give that up. Secondly, the analog channel numbers have already been coordinated to prevent conflicts within markets and between adjacent markets.

The stations that are sending out the incorrect time are in violation of the ATSC rules. The time is supposed to be maintained within 1 second of GPS time.

bdfox18doe

01-18-05, 09:37 PM

[i], DTC-100 is a D*+OTA receiver which does Off air EPG, but the ATSC/NTSC and Sat receivers do not do "integrate" - They are completely seperate. I've never used the sat receiver on mine. [/B]

According to one of the design engineers of the 100, that receiver has "seperate" EPG memories for satellite and OTA guides..another
STB mfg told me that their receiver only does satellite because it was too difficult to intergrate satellite guides with OTA..Guess it was easier years ago when the 100 was built and less memory cost a lot much more..

Nitewatchman

01-19-05, 12:02 AM

LOL. Good one Bob. Especially after the "soothsaying" from the editor I just finished reading from the new (#128) Tech-notes ...

Originally posted by spwace
The stations have a considerable investment in their association with that number, it is in fact their brand and they didn't want to give that up.

Defintely. I'm very aware of the keeping the existing channel branding issue.

Originally posted by spwace
Secondly, the analog channel numbers have already been coordinated to prevent conflicts within markets and between adjacent markets.

"Practically speaking" I must say, I don't understand why this part is an issue. The analog channel numbers, which designate the actual 6MHZ slices of spectrum(example - 54-60 MHZ for ch 2) have been "coordinated" to protect the service areas of the stations involved from harmful interference from other broadcasters : co-channel/1st adjacent channel/etc/etc. Obviously, it's the same for the RF channel numbers for the digital stations, now, and wherever they might end up after analog shut off.

Anyway, as we know it's a done deal, I can live with it, and really,again I have nothing to complain about here. Sort of wish I hadn't brought it up at this point ... I agree that it should work fine, and is probably even best given that most stations seem to be/have been doing the major channel remapping to analog channel # anyway. Maybe even cable viewers will get the benefit of PSIP, and be able to tune to a channel number that "makes sense" and agrees with the logos/etc from the station ...

Inundated

01-19-05, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by spwace
The stations that are sending out the incorrect time are in violation of the ATSC rules. The time is supposed to be maintained within 1 second of GPS time.

Well, then nearly everyone in the Cleveland market is WAY off.

The only station that's even remotely close to the correct time is the Univision O&O, WQHS/61, and even they're about 20 seconds fast. The secondary PBS affiliate in the market is nearly an hour and a half slow!

foxeng

01-19-05, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
"Practically speaking" I must say, I don't understand why this part is an issue. The analog channel numbers, which designate the actual 6MHZ slices of spectrum(example - 54-60 MHZ for ch 2) have been "coordinated" to protect the service areas of the stations involved from harmful interference from other broadcasters : co-channel/1st adjacent channel/etc/etc. Obviously, it's the same for the RF channel numbers for the digital stations, now, and wherever they might end up after analog shut off.

It is to keep the public from becoming confused where their favorite station is. If they have always known a station to be on channel 8, when they hit channel 8 on their remote, by golly they want it on channel 8 even if the actual channel is 51. When the final DTV assignments come out you will have some stations who will be on old analog assignments of other stations who went to other channels and because they are already using that channel number, they will get to pick an unused channel number. Again this is to keep the confusing factor out. The purpose is that channel numbers are now virtual channel numbers in the digital world and the actual channel number will not matter and a station will always have its legacy analog channel number no matter what actual RF channel they end up with and a new digital only station that comes on after the transition is complete, even if they land on an old analog assignment in that market, they can NEVER be called by that number confusing the public. That is the reasoning the FCC gave anyway.

Nitewatchman

01-19-05, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by foxeng
It is to keep the public from becoming confused where their favorite station is.

Yes, yes I know all that .. Not the point I was addressing.

Originally posted by foxeng
The purpose is that channel numbers are now virtual channel numbers in the digital world and the actual channel number will not matter

I'm afraid I would have to disagree with the latter part of that. The actual channel number, in fact is what is used on one of my recievers(Zenith HDV420) "channel edit list" - Thankfully so for various reasons .....

But to illustrate some more "important" examples :

So, then ... As a member of the OTA viewing public -- Since it isn't important, I guess I can use a cut for channel 7(174MHZ) yagi with good results to pick up a channel that is actually transmitting on UHF 41(632MHZ) from 60 miles away over rough terrain ?

I've *already* seen many posts on this very forum from folks whom are confused about this sort of thing, as in many cases a lot of folks seem to *think* the virtual channel number directly relates to the actual channel the station is sending it's signal on. In a lot of cases, it really doesn't matter if they *know* how it really works or not, but there are going to be *some* cases when its a problem. For example -- if a station in our area which actually transmits its signal on RF ch 35, but shows up as "5-1", they might *think* the reason why their UHF antenna isn't working(for whatever reason) is because they find out channel 5 is VHF, and they'll think they need a VHF antenna and that the station is actually sending out it's signal on RF channel 5.

Look, I''m not trying to be a S*art*ss here, and I certianly hope the way it's going to happen is going to cause *less* confusion than any other option that might have been "possible" .... What I am trying to say is that there would be "viewer confusion" either way, and stations are going to/would have get/gotten "calls" and letters/etc about it from "confused" viewers either way.

And, for the most part I personally don't care as long as I know/can easily find the info on the actual frequency of operation/actual RF channel number of any given station, which I assume will at *least* be publicly available via FCC CDBS database/TV query, or the stations "public file"/etc. As, there are very *real* and valid reasons why the actual frequency of operation/RF channel # "matters" to me... I think it should also be part of a station's Legal ID, but of course that's not a requirement currently, and not likely to happen in the future, either ;)

foxeng

01-19-05, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I'm afraid I would have to disagree with the latter part of that. The actual channel number, in fact is what is used on one of my recievers(Zenith HDV420) "channel edit list" - Thankfully so for various reasons .....

But to illustrate some more "important" examples

Here is the MOST important example. From the FCC Second DTV Report and Order dated Sept 7, 2004 paragraph 172:

As discussed above, we have decided to adopt the ATSC A/65B standard into our rules. One of the most important benefits of PSIP is that it defines specific requirements for use of "major" channel numbers to provide viewers with a uniform methodology to access DTV services and avoid conflict with duplicative numbers in a market. PSIP will allow viewers to see a broadcaster's major channel number regardless of the broadcaster's allocated digital broadcast channel. Thus, PSIP allows broadcasters to keep their existing channel number in the digital world, thereby assisting viewers who have come to identify these numbers with particular broadcasters and preserving the investment broadcasters have made in marketing these numbers.

Nitewatchman

01-19-05, 09:46 PM

Yep, that's what it says..... Read/studied it back in early September ....

Is that going to make a channel 7 yagi work used for a station that is transmitting on channel 41, whose virtual channel is 7 because the actual channel # "doesn't matter?"

We seem to be having a big misunderstanding here for some reason. Lets recap here a little and see if we can straighten it out.

I expect where I must have "erred" was -- Rereading it, I think it is likely that what Spwace was referring to concerning his second point concerning why they decided to require Major channel # remap to Analog # -- was that if stations don't follow some sort of "guidelines" (such as what was adopted in 2nd DTV review, as partially quoted by Foxeng above), then you could(and more likely will in more cases after channel election/analog shut off) run into conflicts in markets, or nearby markets if you say, get a "mix" of some stations use the old analog Ch # as the virtual major channel #, and some stations use their RF channel number, and some stations use "whatever" .....

But, that isn't what he said, and what he *said* was what I replied to, and that reply seemed to get us on the wrong track -- So -- I'll try this again, hopefully more clearly -- what *I* was saying ... That as far as "channel conflicts go", using the RF channel # in all cases would seem to me to work just as well to solve channel conflicts as would the decided upon course of action(requiring major Virtual channel remap to current analog channel #). I did not say it would solve the channel branding issue, or the "viewer confusion issue"/etc.

AS for my orignal comment on channel remapping which Spwace replied to -- Perhaps I should have worded that a bit differently as what I said was :

"For that matter, It doesn't seem right to me to "force" stations to use the analog channel # for the major channel number, either. This oftentimes seems to confuse viewers concerning what antennas they should buy, if they don't understand that the actual RF channel(which could be VHF/UHF) may be on a different band than the remapped Channel # .... "

I did NOT contest that the rules didn't say otherwise(they do of course, I know this) -- I DID NOT say anything about "channel branding", or some of the other issues involved, all I said was, it doesn't seem right to ME, as I truly think(and still do) that the better course of action for the short AND long term would have been to use the ACTUAL channel # in all circumstances. But, that is just MY OPINION, and you know what they say about those ...

If you want to dismiss that as an opinion from a "Stupid viewer", because the rules say otherwise, or because you don't agree that some of the examples I provided, which I think are valid examples of how "OTA viewer confusion" is STILL going to be a problem, Or whatever it is that is going on here, then so be it.

But, It's VERY very disappointing to me that's(or something similar) the course that we seem to be going down. As, I've *allways* found the engineers who have posted on this thread to have informative posts+ I am allways appreciative of your participation here, and my interest here is that I WANT to see Broadcasters succeed with the DTV transistion ... I WANT to be responsive to the stations, and in a way, I'm trying to do that HERE, which seems to be proving to be as difficult(or more) than is the case "trying" to be responsive+provide reports/etc to the local stations ... Now DON'T spin that into something its not -- I'm not going to complain to the station that they aren't using their RF channel number because that's the way I "like it" -- If I notice that they are not in compliance "with the rules", or if my receivers are having problems/etc with their PSIP, I will drop them a note to hopefully be of some assistance to THEM, if it doesn't get read, or is ignored/etc, then there is not much I can do, and I'm not one to go to the commission about this sort of stuff ...

foxeng

01-20-05, 06:34 AM

OK, I may be the dumb one here but I am sorry, I really don't understand why we are even talking about this. Virtual channel numbers are the law of the land for DTV and that isn't going to change.

The law is that stations will use their legacy analog numbers as major channel numbers to keep the confusion down for the public. If a station has one channel only, as in stations being authorized after the 1997 DTV Table was created and therefore do not have a second channel, they will use their RF channel number. For new stations that are authorized in the future on old analog channels, and that analog channel number is in use as a major channel number, the station has to pick a non-conflicting channel number.

As was pointed out in the 2nd DTV Review R & O, the reasoning behind this was so stations couldn't do want some were doing, using channel 1 as a major channel number and causing all kinds of confusion to not only the public, but the receivers which are not set up to use a channel 1 since that is not covered in the ATSC A/65 spec for major/minor channel numbers and the public has never known a channel 1 even though in the beginning, there had been a channel 1 for about 2 years in the late 1940's.

I really do not know why we are even talking about this. It doesn't seem to be causing any problems that I can see from the viewers I have been talking to in the past month who are really just now joining the DTV viewer ranks and most are OTA, not cable. They understand that when their receiver says channel 8-1, that isn't really on channel 8 but another channel and as long as the receiver knows where to find "HD Channel 8", they don't have a problem.

Nitewatchman

01-20-05, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by foxeng
OK, I may be the dumb one here but I am sorry, I really don't understand why we are even talking about this. Virtual channel numbers are the law of the land for DTV and that isn't going to change.

Like I said, I wish I hadn't brought it up at all. Especially because, for the most part, I don't care either -- If I ever do have an issue with it, I'm sure I can figure it out. But, people were responding to my comments, saying why things are the way they are(which I already knew), So I continued to discuss WHY I did bring it up.

If you want to believe the actual channel # which your station is sending its signal "doesn't matter" in any shape or form, to any of your viewers for any reason so be it.

As for being the "law of the land", it seems to me that there a a decision made by FCC concerning Modulation standards in the mid-Late 90's, a lot of people continued to talk about it, and then the FCC reaffirmed that decision around this time in 2001, and people STILL continued to talk about it here, and there is at least one guy(not here) that STILL continues to "talk" about it ... But, I am certianly done talking about it, except when someone becomes confused, or when discussing station PSIP issues/etc ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway ... I have some more good news, and unfortunetly some bad news as well. I apologize for the length -- Probably could have done this easier with a spreadsheet, but here goes.

Last night, I turned the PSIP stuff on the DTC-100. It's been a while since I did that, because it requires a full rescan of both antenna inputs - which is a long process, and because every time I've done that there has allways been an issue that was "bad enough" that I had to turn it back off again. The DTC-100 seems to support all the PSIP stuff that is "user visable", my other receiver doesn't do much beyond Channel remapping.

So, I didn't check the local TBN DTV affiliate, which is difficult to receive at my location due to their antenna pattern/terrain Etc.

One of the stations goes off air nightly, which occured before I had a chance to look at it with PSIP stuff on. That station(A PBS station) does remap "properly" on my other receiver -- on DTC-100 with ch remapping off, or with channel remapping on on any receiver -- The first minor # is X-2 (SD) when they are in 4 channnel SD multicast mode -- When they are in HD mode, X-1 appears(their HD service) and the last 2 SD services "X-4 and X-5" disappear. So, I don't know if their Time/Date clock is OK, or if they're sending EPG. If the DTC-100 with remapping off is taking the "info" for the first program stream/subchannel right from the PID values, and X-3 as the first one means a address of x00030/Hex30 is being used, then obviously, this station is using a address below hex30 for it's first program stream.

TWO aren't remapping - They show up on RF channel #, with first minor # as x-1. This remains the case for any receiver I know of that's getting info via OTA PSIP, or with remapping turned OFF on DTC-100 - so, doesn't seem like their PID values for the program streams are in compliance with the new regs(in that case, which went into effect 1/1/05 I believe) either. I can't tell if they are sending any clock/date info, if they are it's correct. No EPG info - Obviously, they don't "integrate" into the channel profiles on DTC-100(NTSC/ATSC integrated tuning). One of the two DOES actually send service ID (WKEF-HD/WKEF-SD) for their subchannels, that's the only thing I can tell that they are sending PSIP wise.

ONE of the stations locked up the DTC-100 with the PSIP stuff turned "on" completely. I mean, it locked it up REALLY good - So I couldn't check it. I was able to see that it must be remapping to the analog # OK on DTC, as it's remapped channel number did show up on it's signal quality meter "list"(antenna info) properly, and the RF channel number didn't show up in the channel profiles, just the "integrated" analog channel #. It *does* now show up with first(only) subchannel as x-3 with the remapping off(that's happened VERY recently), and of course, the DTC-100 doesn't lock up with the remapping off. It does remap just fine to analog major #/X-1 minor on Zenith HDV420 receiver, and I haven't heard anyone else have any problems.

Of the other 10 stations -- Now the mostly good news: ALL are sending proper Channel remapping info (With Major channel remapping to Analog channel Number, 1st minor channel as X-1). ALL are now sending proper time/date info, which I was glad to see. However, Only 5 of the 10 are currently showing up with "X-3" being the first subchannel with remapping turned off on DTC-100. I expect that may change VERY soon. FOUR are sending program info via OTA EPG(that's two more than was the case about 6 months ago). All properly integrate in DTC-100 channel profiles with the analog channel #.

Obviously, I had to turn the PSIP stuff back off on DTC-100, since one(often watched) station was casuing the receiver to lock up anytime I tuned to it, and the entire family uses it. Again -- If this is what DTC-100 with remapping off is indicating -- they do seem to have their PID for 1st program stream set high enough, as 1st minor # is X-3 with remapping set "high enough". I had seen another thread/report about this from back in December -- Does anybody have any idea why the DTC-100 may be locking up in this circumstance ? Thanks.

Nitewatchman

01-20-05, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by foxeng
From the examples that you posted it would appear that your receiver, in the "unmapped mode" reads the actual program number of the stream and not the virtual minor channel as does other receivers when a major channel remap is not used, as you also pointed out. The law now requires that video start on program stream 3 and program streams 0, 1 and 2 are now reserved for other functions within the data stream and your examples bear that out. Many stations did not/do not still understand that the stream program number isn't the same as the virtual minor channel number. In my market several of the stations used program 1 for video and mapped it as minor channel 1, instead of the old standard of program 2 remapped to minor channel 1. One station here still uses stream program 0 for video remapped to virtual minor stream 2 and program stream 1 remapped to minor channel 1 and many receivers either do not pick up that stream or it causes receivers to lock up and require rebooting.

Sorry I didn't ask this earlier, but I wanted to go back to this, as I'm trying to figure something out.

With this particular receiver(DTC-100) in "Unmapped mode", When I see the -3 subchannel being the first(lowest) program stream/subchannel ... As you mention .. we seem to be pretty sure in this case it's showing the "first"(lowest) MPEG PMT program number.

What I want to know is :

1.) can the lowest PMT program number be 3, but the PID's (packet identifers) for the datastreams be less than the required 0x30(from what I can tell the answer to this seems to be no)?

2.) Or, on the other hand, is it possible for the PMT number to be lower -- say --- 1 or 2, with the first minor channel number showing up as -1 or -2, but with the station still in "compliance" with PID's at hex 30 or above ?

In other words, I'm trying to figure out if I can be sure that the x-3(or higher) with the receiver in unmapped mode shows for sure the station is meeting the at or above Hex 30 adress for PID requirement, or if it's possible that, if the first one is x-1 or x-2, if they *could* also be in compliance as well. Mainly, I'm wondering to get some sort of an idea concerning how many stations "are left" in the area which still need to make the changes to keep the PID's for the datastreams above Hex 30, which of course would mean more rescans on some receivers/etc and other potential problems if they don't get the changes quite right/etc ....

I read through this ( http://www.atsc.org/pid_changeinfo.html ), and if I'm understanding the following paragraph correctly ... I'm not so sure I can tell for sure about the PID numbers for program streams being hex 30 or above, if anything lower than X-3 shows up with the receiver in "unmapped mode", perhaps depending upon the equipment at the station - as it seems to be saying that some "newer systems" can be set with PMT's below 3, but can have PID's above 0x30 ... Although, it seems to be recommending that stations use PMT's program numbers above 2 .....

"When the ATSC Standard was first adopted, there was a relationship between the program number and the audio and video PIDs called the program paradigm. The program paradigm was removed from A/53 by Amendment 1 in 2000, but some systems still use it. If such systems are set to use program number 0x01 or 0x02, they will generate PIDs below 0x30, which will be invalid after January 1. While not necessary for all systems, if program numbers for each service are set above 0x03, any automatic numbering of PIDs will fall into the valid range. Just using program numbers over 0x02 may expedite making the change and with some systems is required. "

:end quote

Thanks ahead of time ...

Haidozo

01-20-05, 05:23 PM

Ok, so what is the fix when rescanning doesn't work?

My local PBS station has acknowledged that they made PSIP changes but I still can't see or hear their channels on my TV (built-in digital tuner).

Is it up to the station to fix it or the TV manufacturer to fix it? Since I'm one of the few people with a TV that doesn't have cable or satellite and I like PBS, I'd really like to get this working.

Inundated

01-20-05, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by Haidozo
Is it up to the station to fix it or the TV manufacturer to fix it? Since I'm one of the few people with a TV that doesn't have cable or satellite and I like PBS, I'd really like to get this working.

Which STB are you using?

I'd check the HDTV Hardware threads and see if there are any outstanding issues with your STB, and approach the manufacturer. But I'd also talk to the TV station's engineering department to see if they're aware of the problem, even if it's only with your brand of STB.

Nitewatchman

01-20-05, 06:24 PM

He isn't using a STB, the receiver is built into his set ...

Haidozo,

If you haven't already done so, I would also check your local thread (Local thread index here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453241 ) to see if anyone else is having problems with that station.

foxeng

01-20-05, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
What I want to know is :

1.) can the lowest PMT program number be 3, but the PID's (packet identifers) for the datastreams be less than the required 0x30(from what I can tell the answer to this seems to be no)?

2.) Or, on the other hand, is it possible for the PMT number to be lower -- say --- 1 or 2, with the first minor channel number showing up as -1 or -2, but with the station still in "compliance" with PID's at hex 30 or above ?

In every case that I have seen 0x30h used, it has always been program 3. To my knowledge they are related, but I am not sure it is because the protocol says it is or it is really needed to be related. My guess is it is easy to keep things grouped together than trying to link stuff that is different since the PMT is linked to VCT. You get those two set different and you can forget ANY receiver from working correctly since PMT and VCT are DIRECTLY related.

Inundated

01-20-05, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
He isn't using a STB, the receiver is built into his set ...

Oops. I missed the "(built-in digital tuner)" part...

jimboy

01-20-05, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by Haidozo
Ok, so what is the fix when rescanning doesn't work?

My local PBS station has acknowledged that they made PSIP changes but I still can't see or hear their channels on my TV (built-in digital tuner).

Is it up to the station to fix it or the TV manufacturer to fix it? Since I'm one of the few people with a TV that doesn't have cable or satellite and I like PBS, I'd really like to get this working.

Had a person in the Milwaukee market that couldn't receive the ABC affiliate after they changed their PID numbers. Rescanning didn't help. I suggested he contact Samsung and he found the set needed to be unplugged for longer than 30 seconds to restore it to factory defaults. Did a rescan....Problem fixed.

Nitewatchman

01-20-05, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by foxeng
In every case that I have seen 0x30h used, it has always been program 3. To my knowledge they are related, but I am not sure it is because the protocol says it is or it is really needed to be related. My guess is it is easy to keep things grouped together than trying to link stuff that is different since the PMT is linked to VCT. You get those two set different and you can forget ANY receiver from working correctly since PMT and VCT are DIRECTLY related.

Thanks. That's a much better answer than I could find in the ATSC documents concerning info about ATSC standard/MPEGII, or the PSIP Documents -- Especially as I didn't find an answer there really. Although, your comments do help me understand a little better what I did find in the PSIP docs. Best I could find that I think somewhat relates(somewhat, but not really enough to give me answers to what I was looking for unless it's there and I'm just not seeing it) was scattered about the most recent a65+a69 documents which can currently be found here :

http://www.atsc.org/psip_links.html

I've studied and referenced the ATSC A53, and the later updated A54 document "Guide the The ATSC Television standard", in the past, and I've found for the most part I can understand much of it. I had browsed the PSIP docments+other info previously enough to know what the PSIP tables are/do, and for the most part understand how the basic structure of the tables work and understand some of how PSIP "integrates" with MPEG2/ATSC, but I'm not finding what I'm looking for in this case and at the same time, trying to "dig into the details" of PSIP is just causing my brain to leak out of my ears ....

But, FWIW -- contained within some quotes from those documents which follow are "portions" of info that somewhat relate :

From the definitions of the VCT fields "Channel_TSID", and "program_number" from pg 32 of ATSC a65b "PSIP for TV and Cable" document - The all caps for some of the words in the "program_number" field description are theirs(for whatever reason), not mine, BTW :

"channel_TSID — A 16-bit unsigned integer field in the range 0x0000 to 0xFFFF that represents the MPEG-2 Transport Stream ID associated with the Transport Stream carrying the MPEG-2 program referenced by this virtual channel. For inactive channels, channel_TSID shall represent the ID of the Transport Stream that will carry the service when it becomes active.
The receiver is expected to use the channel_TSID to verify that any received Transport Stream is actually the desired multiplex. For analog channels (service_type 0x01), channel_TSID shall indicate the value of the analog TSID included in the VBI of the NTSC signal. Refer to Annex D Section 9 for a discussion on use of the analog TSID.

program_number — A 16-bit unsigned integer number that associates the virtual channel being defined here with the MPEG-2 PROGRAM ASSOCIATION and TS PROGRAM MAP tables. For virtual channels representing analog services, a value of 0xFFFF shall be specified for program_number. For inactive channels (those not currently present in the
Transport Stream), program_number shall be set to zero. This number shall not be interpreted as pointing to a Program Map Table entry."

:end quote

Description of VCT field "program_number" From pg 28 of A69 "PSIP implementation guidelines" Document :

"The program_number is included to associate the VCT with the MPEG PAT and Program Map Table. This is an arbitrary number between 1 and 65534. Use 65535 for all analog channels. The PSIP encoder should automatically assign this number if it is in electronic communication with the video encoder/multiplexer to ensure equality. If there is no electronic ommunication, the broadcaster must insure that the corresponding values match.

The link between the VCT and the SLD is via the program_number. If values for the transport stream_id, program_number, and SLD information are specified by the broadcaster in setting up the VCT, the PAT/PMT combination can be automatically generated by some PSIP encoders. Other
equipment configurations require direct settings of the video encoder and/or the emission multiplexer. It is recommended that all PSIP encoders automatically control these relationships..."

:end quote

From page 122 of a65b document - The "tuning operations and table access" section :

"For terrestrial broadcast, the existence of a service location descriptor in the TVCT is mandatory. The PID values needed for acquisition of audio and video elementary streams may be found in either a service_location_descriptor() within a TVCT, or in a TS_program_map_section(). The service_location_descriptor() has been included in PSIP to minimize the time required for changing and tuning to channels. However, PAT and PMT information is required to be present in the Transport Stream to provide MPEG-2 compliance. Access to data or other supplemental services may require access to the PAT or TS_program_map_section(). Cable systems may or may not carry
the Service Location Descriptor, and the information contained therein will be found in the TS_program_map_section()."

:end quote

Alan Gordon

01-21-05, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by foxeng
It is to keep the public from becoming confused where their favorite station is.

Another reason I was so surprised that when my local FOX affiliate moved to their new building, they put a sign out front that has both their "WFXL FOX 31" logo on, but also a "WFXL FOX 12" sign (31 is their analog channel and 12 is their digital channel) right next to it.

BTW, thanks to everyone who helped answer my question earlier. Thanks!

~Alan<~~~~~~~Who just wonders when his FOX affiliate will start broadcasting HD!!

foxeng

01-21-05, 06:25 AM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
But, FWIW -- contained within some quotes from those documents which follow are "portions" of info that somewhat relate

And your question is??? :D

Nitewatchman

01-21-05, 12:09 PM

No questions right now that come to mind, I'm taking the day off :)

Just a big tip of the hat to those who make this stuff work ... And a bigger tip of the hat to those who come here and talk about it ...

w9wi

01-21-05, 06:09 PM

foxeng

01-21-05, 06:32 PM

jswclw

01-21-05, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by w9wi
What I understood from Thales tech support is that it is traditional for the program number to be related to the PID but not necessary as long as the tables are set up properly.

We did switch from Program 2 to Program 3 when we changed the PIDs from 0x002n to 0x003n. I note all the other stations we can monitor here did the same thing. (the two stations I would expect to get it wrong aren't decoding right now.....) When you say that you can no longer decode 2 of the stations, what hardware are you speaking?

I am using a Samsung SIR-T150 which is having decode problems with one of my locals since they changed PIDs. The added a sub-channel at the same time. Oddly enough I can decode the new sub-channel, but not the main (original) channel. The Samsung T150 seems to be the only receiver affected.

spwace

01-21-05, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by w9wi
What I understood from Thales tech support is that it is traditional for the program number to be related to the PID but not necessary as long as the tables are set up properly.

We did switch from Program 2 to Program 3 when we changed the PIDs from 0x002n to 0x003n. I note all the other stations we can monitor here did the same thing. (the two stations I would expect to get it wrong aren't decoding right now.....)

The standard originally put forth a PID mapping plan known as the program paradigm which set up a relationship between the program number and the PIDs. The PIDs can be changed easily, in an encoder built to follow the paradigm, by just changing the program number to 3 or higher.

jimboy

01-21-05, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by jimboy
Had a person in the Milwaukee market that couldn't receive the ABC affiliate after they changed their PID numbers. Rescanning didn't help. I suggested he contact Samsung and he found the set needed to be unplugged for longer than 30 seconds to restore it to factory defaults. Did a rescan....Problem fixed.

Update......Using the remote enter the following starting with the set on
(Power off, Mute, 1,8,2,power on) when it comes on it will be as if it had never been turned on before.
This should work for newer Samsung 27-30" direct view sets.

dr1394

01-22-05, 06:04 AM

Here's a bitstream from KTEH-DT (PBS San Jose) that has PID's above 0x30 and
Program Number = 1.

Program Number = 1 (0x0001), Program Map PID = 48 (0x0030)
MGT tables defined = 11

MGT table type = 0x0000
MGT table type pid = 0x1ffb
MGT table type version = 0x00
MGT table bytes = 0x00000041
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0200
MGT table type pid = 0x1e00
MGT table type version = 0x08
MGT table bytes = 0x00000246
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0201
MGT table type pid = 0x1e01
MGT table type version = 0x08
MGT table bytes = 0x0000007d
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0202
MGT table type pid = 0x1e02
MGT table type version = 0x08
MGT table bytes = 0x000006c9
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0004
MGT table type pid = 0x1e80
MGT table type version = 0x08
MGT table bytes = 0x00000026
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0203
MGT table type pid = 0x1e03
MGT table type version = 0x08
MGT table bytes = 0x0000037f
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0100
MGT table type pid = 0x1d00
MGT table type version = 0x08
MGT table bytes = 0x000000c0
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0101
MGT table type pid = 0x1d01
MGT table type version = 0x08
MGT table bytes = 0x000000cb
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0102
MGT table type pid = 0x1d02
MGT table type version = 0x08
MGT table bytes = 0x00000206
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0301
MGT table type pid = 0x1ffb
MGT table type version = 0x00
MGT table bytes = 0x000003e0
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT table type = 0x0103
MGT table type pid = 0x1d03
MGT table type version = 0x08
MGT table bytes = 0x000001f4
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000

MGT desc bytes = 0x0000

program descriptor = 0x05, 0x04, 0x47, 0x41, 0x39, 0x34
program descriptor = 0x10, 0x06, 0xc0, 0xaf, 0xc8, 0xc0, 0x02, 0x00
program descriptor = 0xa3, 0x0f, 0x01, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00,
0x07, 0x4b, 0x54, 0x45, 0x48, 0x2d, 0x44, 0x54
program descriptor = 0xaa, 0x01, 0xff
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x02, 0x03, 0x22, 0x48, 0x5f
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x02
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x05, 0x04, 0x41, 0x43, 0x2d, 0x33
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x81, 0x06, 0x08, 0x29, 0x05, 0x00,
0x00, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x0a, 0x04, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x01
TVCT number of channels = 1

TVCT short name = KTEH-DT
TVCT channel number = 54.1
TVCT modulation mode = 0x04
TVCT channel TSID = 0x0193
TVCT program number = 0x0001
TVCT service type = 0x0002
TVCT source id = 0x0001
TVCT desc bytes = 0x0011

SLD PCR pid = 0x0031
SLD stream type = 0x02
SLD elementary pid = 0x0031
SLD language code =

SLD stream type = 0x81
SLD elementary pid = 0x0034
SLD language code = eng

TVCT additional desc bytes = 0x0000

EIT2 events defined = 7

EIT event id = 0x009f
EIT start time = 0x2f1d25f5
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x20
Clifford The Big Red Dog
EIT desc bytes = 0x0013
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x0120
EIT start time = 0x2f1d2cfd
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x1d
Jay Jay The Jet Plane
EIT desc bytes = 0x0027
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor
Content Advisory Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x0121
EIT start time = 0x2f1d3405
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x18
Thomas & Friends
EIT desc bytes = 0x0027
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor
Content Advisory Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x0122
EIT start time = 0x2f1d3b0d
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x1d
Postcards from Buster
EIT desc bytes = 0x0027
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor
Content Advisory Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x0123
EIT start time = 0x2f1d4215
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x0e
Arthur
EIT desc bytes = 0x0027
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor
Content Advisory Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x0124
EIT start time = 0x2f1d491d
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x15
Maya & Miguel
EIT desc bytes = 0x0027
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor
Content Advisory Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x0125
EIT start time = 0x2f1d5025
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x12
Cyberchase
EIT desc bytes = 0x0027
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor
Content Advisory Descriptor

Sequence Header found
12 frames before first Sequence Header
Horizontal size = 704
Vertical size = 480
Aspect ratio = 4:3
Frame rate = 29.97
Sequence header bitrate = 6000000 bps
Progressive Sequence = 0
EIT0 events defined = 3

EIT event id = 0x001b
EIT start time = 0x2f1cd89d
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x13
High Stakes
EIT desc bytes = 0x0019
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x001c
EIT start time = 0x2f1cdfa5
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x13
High Stakes
EIT desc bytes = 0x0019
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x001d
EIT start time = 0x2f1ce6ad
EIT length in seconds = 14400
EIT title length = 0x1d
Annenberg/CPB Channel
EIT desc bytes = 0x0019
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor

First Video PTS = 0x5c90bf70
First Audio PTS = 0x5c90ba29, -4231
Audio Bitrate = 192000, Audio Sampling Rate = 48000
Audio Mode = 2/0, bsid = 8, bsmod = 0
EIT1 events defined = 3

EIT event id = 0x001d
EIT start time = 0x2f1ce6ad
EIT length in seconds = 14400
EIT title length = 0x1d
Annenberg/CPB Channel
EIT desc bytes = 0x0019
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x009e
EIT start time = 0x2f1d1eed
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x17
To The Contrary
EIT desc bytes = 0x0019
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x009f
EIT start time = 0x2f1d25f5
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x20
Clifford The Big Red Dog
EIT desc bytes = 0x0013
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor

EIT3 events defined = 6

EIT event id = 0x0125
EIT start time = 0x2f1d5025
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x12
Cyberchase
EIT desc bytes = 0x0027
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor
Content Advisory Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x01a6
EIT start time = 0x2f1d572d
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x23
Best of the Joy of Painting
EIT desc bytes = 0x0027
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor
Content Advisory Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x01a7
EIT start time = 0x2f1d5e35
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x38
One Stroke Painting with Donna Dewberry - Series
EIT desc bytes = 0x0027
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor
Content Advisory Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x01a8
EIT start time = 0x2f1d653d
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x19
Sewing with Nancy
EIT desc bytes = 0x0027
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor
Content Advisory Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x01a9
EIT start time = 0x2f1d6c45
EIT length in seconds = 1800
EIT title length = 0x15
Creative Life
EIT desc bytes = 0x0027
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor
Content Advisory Descriptor

EIT event id = 0x01aa
EIT start time = 0x2f1d734d
EIT length in seconds = 3600
EIT title length = 0x19
Antiques Roadshow
EIT desc bytes = 0x0027
AC-3 Audio Descriptor
Caption Service Descriptor
Content Advisory Descriptor

packets for pid 0 <0x0000> = 190, first = 266, last = 244833
packets for pid 48 <0x0030> = 190, first = 914, last = 245493
packets for pid 49 <0x0031> = 71146, first = 1, last = 245760
packets for pid 52 <0x0034> = 2977, first = 138, last = 245739
packets for pid 7424 <0x1d00> = 75, first = 6635, last = 243150
packets for pid 7425 <0x1d01> = 26, first = 9884, last = 244085
packets for pid 7426 <0x1d02> = 24, first = 5296, last = 230349
packets for pid 7427 <0x1d03> = 15, first = 38921, last = 218645
packets for pid 7680 <0x1e00> = 191, first = 1433, last = 243715
packets for pid 7681 <0x1e01> = 26, first = 10118, last = 244565
packets for pid 7682 <0x1e02> = 104, first = 3855, last = 230673
packets for pid 7683 <0x1e03> = 35, first = 38268, last = 219309
packets for pid 7808 <0x1e80> = 20, first = 1434, last = 244566
packets for pid 8187 <0x1ffb> = 769, first = 289, last = 245510
packets for pid 8191 <0x1fff> = 169972, first = 3, last = 245758
mpeg frames = 568, video fields = 1136

Ron

Nitewatchman

01-22-05, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by dr1394
Here's a bitstream from KTEH-DT (PBS San Jose) that has PID's above 0x30 and
Program Number = 1.

Program Number = 1 (0x0001), Program Map PID = 48 (0x0030)
<snip>
TVCT program number = 0x0001
<snip>

Ron

If I could receive KTEH-DT here, with remapping turned off on DTC-100, I wonder if I would see it as 50-1, or as 50-3, or something else. The FCC CDBS info I have here is a few months old, but it says their RF channel is 50, I assume that is still the case.

DTC-100 has menu option that lets you select "Acquire off air guides" or "do not acquire Off air guides". However, it isn't just the EPG info that is "turned off" if you select "do not acquire off air guides". As far as what is visable to the user, if you select "do not acquire off air guides" it "appears" as if it is not using anything from PSIP tables -- no STT info, no EIT or ETT info, and at least major channel/minor channel values from VCT are not being used - Which all led me to think, that perhaps it is also the case that absolutely nothing from the PSIP tables is being used with "do not acquire off air guides" selected, including program number from VCT.

Perhaps I'm not thinking of this right, but It wouldn't seem like to me a PM PID value of 0x0030(decimal 48) would necessarily equate to a x-3 program number/subchannel number showing up on DTC-100 with remapping off. Although on the other hand, I could be wrong, but It certianly doesn't seem like DTC-100 set to "do not aquire off air guides" is using anything from PSIP - Which I'd think would include program number field value from VCT, in which case I'd think it has to be getting the info from MPEGII PMT/PAT ...

Haidozo

01-25-05, 12:43 PM

My problem with not being able to receive the local PBS channels, even after rescanning, has been resolved. While I don't have any confirmation that they made more PSIP changes, it started working yesteday without doing a rescan. I can only guess that they fixed something.

houselog442

01-29-05, 12:04 PM

The ota channels i have Fox 51 Ocala (31-1) and WUFT PBS 5 (36-1, 36-2) have NOT done thier psip changes yet. This is wierd that 2 stations from the gainesville market have not done that yet. What is going on?

HerbL

01-31-05, 08:04 AM

Can someone please tell me the definition of PSIP or direct me to a thread that clearly defines this topic.

Thanks!

HerbL

greywolf

01-31-05, 08:57 AM

http://psip.org/

greywolf

01-31-05, 11:19 PM

Problem stations should be pretty much gone by now. Stations that still don't have it figured out will be filling out forms and maybe checks for the FCC.

jswclw

02-01-05, 05:59 AM

We have a DC station that still hasn't figured it out. At least no one with a Samsung SIR-T150 (including myself) has been able to decode the primary sub-channel, only the second (weather) sub-channel since they made the change about a month ago.

At present they are blaming it on the Linx (I think) multiplexer.

dswenson

02-01-05, 12:37 PM

Does this apply only to OTA broadcasts or digital cable as well? My aquos has both QAM & ATSC tuners built in. I get some guide data OTA but none from digital cable.

Thanks, Dave

spwace

02-01-05, 02:27 PM

OTA only.

houselog442

02-01-05, 04:11 PM

i think they ought to change the name of the thread since i heard they gave 2 extra weeks to get it done

MarcS

02-02-05, 10:14 AM

Do you have a reference to a published FCC document for the extension?

I've searched the FCC site with no luck in finding it--of course, it took me forever just to find the original order for PSIP (FCC 04-192, published in Docket 03-15 on October 5--add 120 days and you get Feb 3 as the deadline)...

I want to bug some local stations (note, I'd cut them some slack if they weren't already known to be slackers WRT DTV...)

billodom

02-02-05, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by kenglish
All DTV broadcasters are up against a February 1, 2005 deadline to include several changes/upgrades to standardize their PSIP.

This "deadline" :rolleyes: has come and gone. Do any of the broadcast pros that monitor this forum have an update on the current status?

foxeng

02-02-05, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by houselog442
i think they ought to change the name of the thread since i heard they gave 2 extra weeks to get it done

There was no extension on the PSIP data. The only extension was from Jan 27th to Feb 10th on the First Round of Channel Elections.

All stations were to have full PSIP generation installed by Feb 1st. Best I can tell most stations did met that date.

MarcS

02-02-05, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by foxeng
There was no extension on the PSIP data. The only extension was from Jan 27th to Feb 10th on the First Round of Channel Elections.

All stations were to have full PSIP generation installed by Feb 1st. Best I can tell most stations did met that date.

Wait, let me stop laughing..... ok, but seriously, here in Wilmington, NC, we have 1, ONE, station that was PSIP compliant as of yesterday...

WWAY--that's it!! Well, maybe WUNJ (PBS), if you count the lone PSIP entry "OFF AIR" as adequate to meet the FCC requirements for active PSIP...

Now I will check again at lunch time when I go home--but I'm not optimistic...

Like I said in my prior post, I'd cut stations some slack given the learning curve for DT and HD in general, but when they drag and drag and drag, have HD for the Olympics then nothing since then, I have very little tolerance for them missing FCC deadlines--ESPECIALLY when other stations bust their butts to meat deadlines (WWAY--thanks Billy!).

Rant off........:)

easternncnewswat

02-02-05, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by foxeng
There was no extension on the PSIP data. The only extension was from Jan 27th to Feb 10th on the First Round of Channel Elections.

All stations were to have full PSIP generation installed by Feb 1st. Best I can tell most stations did met that date.

foxeng,

What happens if station's are not passing PSIP? Do they get fined by the FCC? Do federal regulators pay any attention to this? Is there anything that we, the viewers, can do?

I actually e-mailed the GM of my local CBS affiliate last week to ask if they would be passing PSIP by Feb 1st. The other two network affiliates in my market are, and have been, for at least a couple of weeks or longer. The fourth network affiliate is not even on the air digitally yet. To date, I've received no response from the GM of the CBS affiliate. They have to be aware of the deadline, don't they?

MarcS

02-02-05, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by easternncnewswat
foxeng,

What happens if station's are not passing PSIP? Do they get fined by the FCC? Do federal regulators pay any attention to this? Is there anything that we, the viewers, can do?

I actually e-mailed the GM of my local CBS affiliate last week to ask if they would be passing PSIP by Feb 1st. The other two network affiliates in my market are, and have been, for at least a couple of weeks or longer. The fourth network affiliate is not even on the air digitally yet. To date, I've received no response from the GM of the CBS affiliate. They have to be aware of the deadline, don't they?

From what I've read in actual FCC documents, and other places, I don't think the FCC is in a mood to cut much slack to any stations.

Tell you what, I'll give them a call to find out...:D I was just talking to them yesterday trying to find out if there was really an extension or not of the PSIP requirement...

easternncnewswat

02-02-05, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by MarcS
From what I've read in actual FCC documents, and other places, I don't think the FCC is in a mood to cut much slack to any stations.

Tell you what, I'll give them a call to find out...:D I was just talking to them yesterday trying to find out if there was really an extension or not of the PSIP requirement...

Personally, I hope the FCC isn't in the mood to cut them much slack. I can understand the cost involved to get on the air and get this stuff done. The engineer of one of my locals and foxeng have been very forthright about numbers to transistion over to HDTV. Having said that, broadcasters make a lot of money too, so it's hard for me to believe that Media General, which owns my local CBS affiliate can't cough up the money or resources to get their PSIP going for the viewers. Unfortunately, WNCT hasn't always been that responsive to reception issues, etc when we've had them. It took several of us bombarding them with complaints for them to address a problem last year because all of their monitoring told them that there was no problem; turned out, in that case, we the viewers were right and we finally got an apology and the problem resolved.

Regarding the extension, I tend to believe foxeng. If he says there is no extension, there probably isn't. In my experience, he's always been on the level. But give the FCC a call anyway! And post the numbers that we can call to complain! *LOL* :D

rickeyboa

02-02-05, 11:24 AM

I am the Toronto area and pick up Buffalo NY stations using a Samsung SIR-T151.

When the NBC affiliate WGRZ remapped to their analogue number 6 weeks ago, I could no longer pick it up. My receiver freezes and re-boots.

Three weeks ago the same thing happened to the ABC station (WKBW). The ABC station had re-mapped to 7-1 from the get-go so there was no obvious change the caused my receiver to suddenly freeze. All other stations are coming in perfectly.

I tried unplugging for several hours and re-scanning. No change. I have ordered the "Broadcast Flag" firmware upgrade from Samsung and I hope that will work.

Anyone have other suggestions? In the Buffalo thread it appears that there are a few others who are having this problem but not everyone

MarcS

02-02-05, 11:28 AM

In the FCC document 04-192 itself, they give an approximate price for PSIP encoders--and it would seem trivial compared to the overall cost of getting DTV and HDTV up and running (seem to recall it was in the $20-30k range).

I just left a message with someone at the FCC Media Bureau DTV Public Interest Issue division... hope to get a call back later today.

Yep, I'll cut stations slack when they show a good faith effort to comply, but when they snub their nose at the FCC, all bets are off...

houselog442

02-02-05, 11:34 AM

WOGX gainesville Fox 51 still hasnt gone to psip and is still reading 31-1 with no call sign, worst part is they are a fox o & o and no psip and no hd, grrrrrrrrrrrr

foxeng

02-02-05, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by easternncnewswat
What happens if station's are not passing PSIP? Do they get fined by the FCC? Do federal regulators pay any attention to this? Is there anything that we, the viewers, can do?

Once the FCC is aware of a violation, there is a due process that happens. The station is contacted to find out what the situation is. If the station has a legit reason, the FCC will give them a time period to rectify the situation. If it isn't rectified in a timely manner, the FCC can levy fines for the infraction or give a warning. My opinion, based on past performance is the FCC will give stations some slack on this issue. Stations only had 6 months to buy and get this equipment on line. For the government, that is hyperfast for anything. Now if a station persists on not complying, then the FCC will come down hard.

Just because the FCC sets a date like this doesn't mean they will instantly jump when someone doesn't make the date. That never happens. Even the full power DTV date has one 6 month extension tyed to it.

spwace

02-02-05, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by MarcS
In the FCC document 04-192 itself, they give an approximate price for PSIP encoders--and it would seem trivial compared to the overall cost of getting DTV and HDTV up and running (seem to recall it was in the $20-30k range).

I just left a message with someone at the FCC Media Bureau DTV Public Interest Issue division... hope to get a call back later today.

Yep, I'll cut stations slack when they show a good faith effort to comply, but when they snub their nose at the FCC, all bets are off...

I assure you that $20-30K is not trivial to TV stations, especially those in small markets. I believe a survey would show a pretty high degree of compliance in bigger markets and less so in the small ones.

Daryl L

02-02-05, 02:56 PM

WRAL-DT 5.1 Raleigh NC and WBTW-DT 13.1 Florence SC has been passing PSIP data for several weeks. WTVD-DT 11.1 Raleigh NC and WWMB-DT 21.1 Florence/Myrtle Beach SC started a week ago.

MarcS

02-02-05, 03:25 PM

(Hi Daryl!)

spwace -- I said "it would SEEM trivial" COMPARED to the overall cost of going digital--which is what, in the several $100k region at least?

Not that the cost in and of itself was trivial... no doubt it depends on the station's overall budget also...

So compliance is based on market size and not FCC order? That's why I don't think the FCC will be very forgiving--I don't see them accepting that as a very valid excuse...

"I know you gave us 120 official days to get PSIP working, and even longer if you consider we knew about it from the time of the initial ruling--but we only have about 100,000 people in our viewing market, so we're not going to implement PSIP at this time. Thanks anyway..."

I didn't think compliance was voluntary...?

keenan

02-02-05, 03:37 PM

foxeng, you have PM.

bdfox18doe

02-02-05, 06:07 PM

One reason many stations still are not compliant is due to the back log of orders the 3 PSIP generator MFG's have..One MFG told me they had orders
for multiple hundreds of PSIP generators, with no way to deliver that many by Feb 5th..Of course, most of those stations waited until they had to to place an order..

foxeng

02-02-05, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by MarcS
I didn't think compliance was voluntary...?

It isn't.

William Smith

02-02-05, 07:13 PM

The rule requires active PSIP (real EPG data) instead of static PSIP. Static PSIP would be fine for re-mapping and VCT insertion but the EPG data would not change. There were several makers of static PSIP solutions but only 3 of active PSIP and as I understand it Harris is now marketing Triveni Digital for PSIP. So that would make two....

I spoke with Triveni last week and they were swamped with orders..

jswclw

02-02-05, 07:16 PM

So is the EPG included in the 2/5/ 2005 dead line?

bdfox18doe

02-02-05, 07:31 PM

Yep.

spwace

02-02-05, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by MarcS
(Hi Daryl!)

spwace -- I said "it would SEEM trivial" COMPARED to the overall cost of going digital--which is what, in the several $100k region at least?

Not that the cost in and of itself was trivial... no doubt it depends on the station's overall budget also...

So compliance is based on market size and not FCC order? That's why I don't think the FCC will be very forgiving--I don't see them accepting that as a very valid excuse...

"I know you gave us 120 official days to get PSIP working, and even longer if you consider we knew about it from the time of the initial ruling--but we only have about 100,000 people in our viewing market, so we're not going to implement PSIP at this time. Thanks anyway..."

I didn't think compliance was voluntary...?

The cost of going digital is in the millions. No, compliance is not voluntary any more, but it was up to this point and that is what I was referring to in my comment about big market vs. small market.

There's only two ways to get $20k to spend in this business. Show how it will either improve the bottom line or protect your license. This falls into the later category.

foxeng

02-02-05, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by William Smith
There were several makers of static PSIP solutions but only 3 of active PSIP and as I understand it Harris is now marketing Triveni Digital for PSIP. So that would make two....

Thales, Triveni, and now Micronas has bought TVLinx Pro. So it is still three.

foxeng

02-02-05, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by jswclw
So is the EPG included in the 2/5/ 2005 dead line?

No. It is included in the Feb 1 2005 deadline.

William Smith

02-02-05, 10:32 PM

I hadn't heard about TVLinx Pro I thought they had died off.. I'm running two Triveni's over the same microwave links.. resteering the PIDs to support the two networks. TVCTs and PATs are re-configured in each of the 16 transmitter systems..It took about two weeks to get the bugs out of the mockup before deploying it for real.

foxeng

02-03-05, 06:19 AM

Originally posted by William Smith
I hadn't heard about TVLinx Pro I thought they had died off.. I'm running two Triveni's over the same microwave links.. resteering the PIDs to support the two networks. TVCTs and PATs are re-configured in each of the 16 transmitter systems..It took about two weeks to get the bugs out of the mockup before deploying it for real.

Micronas Semiconductors purchased TVLinx Pro recently and yes, they are VERY much in business, recently supplying product to all of the stations for a major group owner.

Daryl L

02-03-05, 01:19 PM

Hi Marcs!

WRAZ-DT 50.1 of Raleigh/Durham/Fayetteville is also passing PSIP data.

roemerj

02-05-05, 09:05 AM

Anybody have any luck resetting SONY SATHD300, Hughes HTL, or LG LS3200 after PSIP change?

After reboot and NVRAM reset can not get my SONY to see video on KDKA 2.1 in Pittsburgh! Any suggestion appreciated.

Jim

bdfox18doe

02-05-05, 11:07 AM

No problems here with my Sony 300..

roemerj

02-05-05, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by bdfox18doe
No problems here with my Sony 300..

Did your local stations change their PSIP 2/1/04 requiring you to perform any actions on your reciever. Perhaps your local stations did not have to change anything?

Especially interested in CBS. Sony backend support indicated they had similiar call which was also OTA CBS. Perhaps, the a common denominator?

Jim

bdfox18doe

02-05-05, 02:25 PM

All the local stations here changed, but
"My" station changed well before that, and I didn't have to do a rescan on
the Sony,Zenith 520, or RCA100..I did have to rescan on my Dish6000 and
Sylvania 3000 tho..

houselog442

02-06-05, 11:45 PM

WOGX ocala still has no PSIP information on thier channel at all

Reagan

02-07-05, 09:59 AM

Nashville PSIP status:
Fox (WZTV) has active guide data (not very detailed - in primetime it only says "Fox Primetime" for the entire two hour block). No problems with my boxes.
CBS (WTVF) has active guide data with no problems.
UPN (WUXP) has active guide data with no problems.
ABC (WKRN) has active guide data with no problems.
NBC (WSMV) has active guide data with no problems.
And both of the multicasting religious networks (Pax and TBN) have guide data for all their subchannels. No problems here
Only WB (WNAB) is missing.

Nearby in Bowling Green, KY...
ABC WBKO has active guide data and it works fine.
The Kentucky PBS network KET has active guide data for all of their subchannels and they all work great.
Only PBS (WKYU) is missing.

In summary, just a few stragglers among major networks in the greater Nashville area.

-Reagan

Note: made an edit to reflect new developments.

houselog442

02-09-05, 07:52 PM

WOGX finally just got thier psip on tonight, but no hd, a***oles!

Inundated

02-09-05, 08:51 PM

Cleveland market status:

* WKYC/NBC (Ch. 3, DT 2) - is passing full program guide data.
* WEWS/ABC (Ch. 5, DT 15) - is not passing program guide data.
* WJW/FOX (Ch. 8, DT 31) - is not passing program guide data
* WDLI/TBN (Ch. 17, DT 39) - is passing program guide data only on 17-1 and 17-2 (they have four SD subchannels, no HD)
* WOIO/CBS (Ch. 19, DT 10) - is not passing program guide data
* WVIZ/PBS (Ch. 25, DT 26) - I don't know, since I can't get their low power signal
* WUAB/UPN (Ch. 43, DT 28) - is passing full program guide data. (WUAB is, oddly enough, co-owned with WOIO, which is not.)
* WEAO/PBS (Ch. 49, DT 50) - is passing limited program guide data, usually just with the station's call letters and a 3 hour time frame.
* WQHS/UNI (Ch. 61, DT 34) - is not passing program guide data.

Not on the air digitally yet: WVPX/PAX, WBNX/WB (channel allocation isssues with Canada)

MarcS

02-09-05, 09:38 PM

Inundated--you've got a PM...

LightGuy48

02-13-05, 08:56 PM

I've got two receivers that are no longer receiving the NBC affiliate in Waco, TX after their apparent upgrade. My Tivo HD-DVR250 and my RCA DTC-210 both fail to decode KCEN TV on 9-1 (ATSC) or even when I try 6-1 (NTSC chan). I've re-scanned both receivers and rebooted to no avail.

My Mitsubishi 65613 ATSC tuner will receive 9-1 OTA. The Tivo HD and the DTC-210 both show signal strengths of 90-100% on 9-1, but it won't decode.

I emailed their CE tonight so hopefully I may hear something tomorrow.

Grrrrr....!

dr1394

02-14-05, 12:32 AM

A common problem when changing PID's is forgetting to update the Service
Location Descriptor in the Virtual Channel Table to match the PID's in the
MPEG-2 PAT and PMT tables. Typically, the MPEG-2 PID's are controlled in
the encoder and SLD PID's are controlled in the PSIP generator, so two boxes
need to be reprogrammed at the same time.

I've dumped an example from KFSF-DT below. They've updated their MPEG-2
PID's, but neglected to update the SLD. This channel will not decode on
a Samsung T165, no matter how many re-scans. IMHO, this is a poor choice
in the firmware of these receivers. The PSIP information is entirely auxilliary,
and is not needed to decode the stream. The MPEG-2 PAT and PMT is all that's
required, and receivers should "fall-back" to this when the PSIP doesn't
match up.

Ron

Program Number = 0 (0x0000), Program Map PID = 4094 (0x0ffe)
Program Number = 3 (0x0003), Program Map PID = 48 (0x0030)

TVCT short name = KFSF -
TVCT channel number = 66.1
TVCT modulation mode = 0x04
TVCT channel TSID = 0x0000
TVCT program number = 0x0001
TVCT service type = 0x0002
TVCT source id = 0x0001
TVCT desc bytes = 0x003d

SLD PCR pid = 0x0011
SLD stream type = 0x02
SLD elementary pid = 0x0011
SLD language code =

SLD stream type = 0x81
SLD elementary pid = 0x0014
SLD language code = spa

SLD stream type = 0x81
SLD elementary pid = 0x0015
SLD language code = spa

Extended Channel Name = (Identification and Address)

TVCT additional desc bytes = 0x0000

packets for pid 0 <0x0000> = 259, first = 884, last = 308511
packets for pid 48 <0x0030> = 260, first = 285, last = 309106
packets for pid 49 <0x0031> = 133012, first = 5, last = 309247
packets for pid 52 <0x0034> = 6745, first = 52, last = 309224
packets for pid 53 <0x0035> = 4483, first = 25, last = 309183
packets for pid 7424 <0x1d00> = 830, first = 15, last = 309190
packets for pid 7425 <0x1d01> = 1, first = 210005, last = 210005
packets for pid 8187 <0x1ffb> = 319, first = 1033, last = 309244
packets for pid 8191 <0x1fff> = 163339, first = 1, last = 309248

joblo

02-22-05, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by foxeng
OK, I may be the dumb one here but I am sorry, I really don't understand why we are even talking about this. Virtual channel numbers are the law of the land for DTV and that isn't going to change.
Wanna bet?

It wasn't until I started looking at the first-round channel elections that the realities of this started to dawn on me. While I think the channel remapping is great in the transition world, carrying it forward indefinitely into the post-transition world is a very bad idea, imo.

To say that all the current users you've talked to seem to be fine with it is to flat out ignore the very real differences, demographic and technical, between the current world and the post-transition world. While it may be fine to tell a population of early adopters, most with large screen sets hooked up to outdoor antennas, that any time they have a problem with reception they should just rescan the whole frequency band, when ATSC also has to serve portable sets on rabbit ears, this is simply not going to cut it.

A person needs to be able to take a portable set into a room, plug it in, turn it on, punch in a channel number, and then twiddle the rabbit ears until they get a picture. If they have to rescan (because the actual frequencies are no longer prominently publicized) for every twitch of the rabbit ears, the ball game may be over before they get done.

In the long run, maintaining a set of fictitious channel numbers after the NTSC signals on them are gone will cause far more confusion than it will eliminate.

If this is the future of OTA television, I predict cable/satellite penetration will go from 85% to 95% or even 99%.

foxeng

02-22-05, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by joblo
Wanna bet?

Yeah

It wasn't until I started looking at the first-round channel elections that the realities of this started to dawn on me. While I think the channel remapping is great in the transition world, carrying it forward indefinitely into the post-transition world is a very bad idea, imo.

The FCC has adopted this so the public isn't disenfranchised to have to learn all new channel numbers for stations now or in the future. Now whether or not this is sound policy is anything thing, but the FCC is pretty final on the virtual channel issue.

Now, for the purpose of this thread, the reason for the rescan this last time was due to a FCC rule change that required stations to have the first video stream stream start at 30 hex instead of the former rule of 20 hex. In order for receivers to relock on the new PIDs to get them mapped to the proper subchannels, some receivers are smart enough to located the minor channel number and remap the new PID. Some need a rescan and this is where all this comes from. You add in the fact that at about the same time the FCC required all stations to provide EPG guide data and that has to be mapped correctly to the PIDs and minor channel numbers, it has created a problem, but once we are through this time period, it will not matter and new people purchasing TVs in the future will not have this problem.

Now, in the future, when the transition is complete some stations will go back to their analog channels as a digital station and hopefully the receivers will be smarter to handle that change, but if not, just a rescan will do it since nothing will change except the actual RF channel number. The major/minor/PIDs will all remain the same. )which didn't happen this time) Those will not change, just RF hardware that isn't really typed to major/minor/PID information in the digital stream but in the receiver. For those stations who remain on their digital channels, nothing happens. Everything stays the same.

The FCC and the industry have thought about this and it isn't as big a deal as you make it out to be.

Nitewatchman

02-22-05, 09:55 AM

I know I promised I wouldn't say anything more, sorry ... But other than the "do I need a UHF or VHF antenna" - * issue, it obviously can also be a problem because the receiver doesn't know what the PSIP info IS until it can actually get a signal lock and receive that info from the station ...

It is even more of a problem if the receiver doesn't allow the user(assuming they know what the RF channel is) to manually tune to the RF channel in question and be able to get some sort of output from the receiver(signal quality meter/etc) to allow them to adjust their antenna so they CAN even get a lock on the signal ...

I have already heard of MANY problems with this issue in various local threads right here on AVSforum --- Now, I don't know for sure if it's because some receivers involved absolutely do not have a way for the user to tune to the actual RF channel and look at a "signal quality meter", or if it's just because the user can't find that option, as both my receiver's here certianly DO allow you to do this ... I do know from what I've seen, receiver's won't "find" a signal for a user via a "channel scan" if the receiver is not getting a signal lock on it ...

Furthermore - with analog of course it's easy to look right at the screen and, in most cases be able to diagnose reception problems(snow=weak signal, ghosting=multipath, various interference issues show up in a variety of ways) -- Although in some cases it is best to use a set that does not "mute the screen" with blue or black when weak signals, or extremely multipath or interference laden signals are involved ... With DTV At best, the best you get presently is a "bouncing around" signal meter which can be an indication of any of those things, and personally I'd like to see better tools on receivers than we have now to allow users to more easily diagnose reception problems ...

* - BTW, I know a fellow in my area which just purchased a VU160, RS VHF/UHF combo antenna in order to receive all UHF DTV stations ... No matter how hard I tried to explain that stations which "show up" as 2-1, 7-1 on his receiver are actually broadcasting on UHF, I did not have any luck convinincing him .... These stations from this certian market have all chosen UHF allocations in the first round of channel elections, BTW ... And, while it is certianly Possible this market may end up with VHF digitals after analog shut off, at this point it doesn't look like it's going to happen ...

Is any of that a "big deal?" More "important" than stations being able to keep their existing channel branding? I guess it depends upon your point of view ....

Not that it matters, as Foxeng has said -- It's the "law of the land", I certianly don't expect it to change -- I guess OTA viewers will just have to live with it ... and, of course some just probably won't be watching some of the stations in their area if they don't have a way to adjust their "rabbit ears" ....

joblo

02-22-05, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by foxeng
The FCC has adopted this so the public isn't disenfranchised to have to learn all new channel numbers
I understand the reasoning, and I think if applied in a limited way, e.g. VHF NTSC/UHF DTV combinations only, it's workable and even desirable.

Certainly, we've had CBS2, NBC4, FOX5, ABC7 in places like New York, Chicago, LA, and DC forever, and I, too, would like to see these numbers retained. But when it comes to an NTSC 45 with DTV 46, what's the big deal? 45 is so much better a brand than 46?? Come on... Cable users have been dealing with channel re-orgs for years. It's a short-term learning process, and then everybody knows the new numbers.

But tell me, does the standard allow for stations to transmit a major channel map for all stations in their market, such that a tuner could learn where to look for stations without having to lock them all in first? Now if that could be done, the system might just work. But my understanding is that the system doesn't currently work that way. Am I wrong?

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
as Foxeng has said -- It's the "law of the land", I certianly don't expect it to change
No, it's only an FCC reg, as far as I know. (If anyone knows of a legal statute requiring this, please cite.)

But Congress could certainly pass a law to override it (think ownership rules) if enough people demand it....

Nitewatchman

02-22-05, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by joblo
No, it's only an FCC reg,

Yes, that is what I, and I believe Foxeng meant as well ... No, it's not a law "strictly speaking", but as far as stations being in compliance with FCC regs and potenially suffering any "consequences" if they are not, they probably look at is as "the law" ...

Getting congress to override it may be difficult I would think, unless OTA viewers have powerful lobbying group looking out for their interests which I'm not aware of ... In many cases, as much as NAB is often blasted on this forum, I think, from what I can tell from the comments they submit to FCC on various issues, organizations such as NAB and MSTV's "goals" do often agree with the "needs" of OTA viewers, but I'm not so sure this is the case in this particular circumstance ...

On the one hand, in addition to letting stations keep their existing channel branding, it probably does help reduce viewer confusion, since the major Channel # is the same as what they are used to from the analog station, but on the other hand, there's the reception related issues(at least currently ... needing a signal lock from the station before you get the PSIP info, do I need a VHF or UHF antenna/etc) already mentioned ...

So, there are disadvantages and advantages either way you look at it ...and, I can't say which is best overall for viewers. As was the case with my first post on this issue, I was only pointing out that PSIP channel remapping major channel # to analog channel # assignment per A65B ATSC PSIP standard, causes real, not imagined problems for viewers .....

foxeng

02-22-05, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by joblo
But tell me, does the standard allow for stations to transmit a major channel map for all stations in their market, such that a tuner could learn where to look for stations without having to lock them all in first? Now if that could be done, the system might just work. But my understanding is that the system doesn't currently work that way. Am I wrong?

No it doesn't, but many people haven't seemed to had major problems finding the digital stations in the first place. I am sure the stations that will be going back to analog channels or other channels will make it known when and how to readjust receivers to pick them up, just we have been now when people have just bought sets and can't figure out how to receive the digital stations. The viewing public aren't complete idiots. You provide them a little bit of info and they can and do run with it with few problems.

No, it's only an FCC reg, as far as I know. (If anyone knows of a legal statute requiring this, please cite.)

If the FCC passes it as a rule, IT IS THE LAW. This was passed in the Second DTV Report and Order, MB Docket No 03-15, RM 9832, FCC 04-192 Adopted August 4, 2004 and released Sept 7, 2004. It is law.

But Congress could certainly pass a law to override it (think ownership rules) if enough people demand it....

They could but it is very doubtful. They are having too much trouble just passing a analog shutdown date. Virtual channel remapping is WAY over their heads.

joblo

02-22-05, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
on the other hand, there's the reception related issues(at least currently ... needing a signal lock from the station before you get the PSIP info, do I need a VHF or UHF antenna/etc) already mentioned ...
There's more to it than that. People won't just get black screens. In some cases, they'll get the wrong channel.

Consider two channels, say 8 and 22, whose RF and VC are interchanged, as might happen per rules for new DT stations on vacated NTSC channels. Suppose the channel scan only finds one of the signals, as might happen if a user hooks up a vhf-only antenna, or a UHF-only antenna, or even if one station operates less hours than the other and is signed off when the scan is done. Most receivers I've seen would then display the one available station via both numbers. So the viewer may never recognize that a channel is missing, and might simply conclude that both channels are showing the same program.

Or consider CBS in LA and Chicago. In LA, KCBS 2 wants to use KCAL's vacated channel 9 for its DT signal, while KCAL uses UHF. Since Viacom owns both stations it made an agreement with itself to do this. If/when this goes into effect, you can be sure that some LA viewers will do a scan, dial channel 9 and find KCBS, while others will do a scan, dial channel 9 and find KCAL. In Chicago, the same thing will happen on channel 11 with WBBM and WTTW.

Then there's skip reception, not common now because the bands are so overcrowded. But usable tropo will increase markedly when the NTSC signals go away, and the sparsely populated low band will be ideal for E-skip. Viewers might do a channel scan and find that an out-of-market signal has effectively hijacked some local VC or RF or both, depending on receiver design. Unlike in the NTSC world, these DX stations will look just as crystal clear as any local station -- until the signals fade and they go black. Some viewers will recognize what's happening, but others, perhaps most, will blame the local station or stations.

How common these situations will be and how much confusion they will create only time will tell, but I think it will be somewhat worse than many here seem to be anticipating.

Originally posted by foxeng
No it doesn't, but many people haven't seemed to had major problems finding the digital stations in the first place.
As I indicated previously, I think the early adopters are not representative of the overall OTA viewing population.

The viewing public aren't complete idiots.
Perhaps not, but many are not technophiles or HD enthusiasts either, and I suspect they will be rather less patient and forgiving than current users.

However...
[Congress is] having too much trouble just passing a analog shutdown date. Virtual channel remapping is WAY over their heads.
I do find it interesting/amusing that you seem to have a higher opinion of the viewing public than you do of its elected representatives......

Nitewatchman

02-22-05, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by foxeng
You provide them a little bit of info and they can and do run with it with few problems.

Here is the "info" one station in my area has up on it's website about this :

"3. Antenna pointing. Some HDTV receivers will allow you to peak to a signal level, most do not. One of the problems with HDTV is that it works, or it doesn't. The antenna may very well need pointed in the correct direction before the receiver works at all. The work around is to point the antenna, try to program the receiver, repoint the antenna, reprogram the receiver, and repeat this procedure until reception is achieved. This may take a long time, but once the proper direction is found, it provides reliable reception. "

:end quote from station website

So ... point the antenna, reprogram(rescan), reaim, reprogram, lather, rinse and repeat etc,etc ....... I'll let you draw your own conclusions including why they needed to put this info on their website ....

I would agree info such as the above is good info for those with receivers which won't let you tune to RF channel and "peak up" the signal if a signal lock isn't achieved during channel scan/etc, and I agree that a little info such as this will be all many folks will need, and I agree that many folks don't have any problems finding the digital stations, although I also expect MANY folks, no matter what their I.Q. is will(and do presently) also end the "process" in frustration instead of success ...

Originally posted by joblo
Then there's skip reception, not common now because the bands are so overcrowded. But usable tropo will increase markedly when the NTSC signals go away, and the sparsely populated low band will be ideal for E-skip. Viewers might do a channel scan and find that an out-of-market signal has effectively hijacked some local VC or RF or both, depending on receiver design. Unlike in the NTSC world, these DX stations will look just as crystal clear as any local station -- until the signals fade and they go black. Some viewers will recognize what's happening, but others, perhaps most, will blame the local station or stations.

Concerning the latter portion of your comments, other than the potential "channel scan" implications, and usually the crystal clear picture aspect of DTV signals : but not allways for instance - I've certianly seen clear NTSC DX signals that might fool a lot of folks who might think their local station has switched network affiliation, even E-skip coming through instead of Local signals, not so much if a STRONG local signal is involved however. So, I'm not so sure it will be all that much different than the case with NTSC when DX via tropo or E-skip rolls in in a strong enough fashion to "override" a local analog station. But station engineers love to get phone calls about such issues don't they ? ;) -- i.e. : "why is Fidel Castro on my screen giving a speech in spanish"/etc/etc ....

As for improved possibilities for DTV E-skip on lo-VHF, or for that matter for improved tropo DTV Dx after the analogs are gone, personally I can't wait :) ...

From what I can tell however(from other's comments+reports, as well as with use of my own equipment), it seems some current receivers are only going to "store" new VC channel info from stations upon a channel scan, and some are going to "update" the info for RF channels marked as "active" in it's "internal channel surf list" everytime a signal lock is achieved on the corresponding RF channel from any given station. I think the latter is the way to do it ....

But, I am certianly also concerened about how different receivers will "behave" when occurances of the examples you provided, or other such similiar issues may come into play. I'm particuarly concerned about the integrated receivers going into sets now more and more because of ATSC tuner mandate. As, It seems to me the more they try to make the receivers "user-friendly", the worse these sorts of issues are going to be ...

I can report I've seen actual occurance of just about every potential issue with PSIP and "tuning" that might cause problems that I can think of and have personally experienced few difficulties, at least with the receivers I'm using. The biggest problem I see, as I've already mentioned would be receivers that don't allow the user to peak the signal/adjust the antenna by tuning to the RF channel and using some sort of signal quality meter in cases when the receiver doesn't receive the PSIP info from the station because it didn't get a signal lock during a auto channel scan ...

But, I'm sure you are right, and I'm sure there will be circumstances when many folks will, for example "lose" local stations for long periods of timeuntil the next time they do a channel rescan .. For example ... We had a "new" local station sign on here last spring, and funny thing, one of our local AVSmembers didn't even realize he could receive it until he did a rescan a couple weeks ago to try to solve a problem with a PID change at a different local station ....

As you might be able to tell by now, I am a TV/DTV Dx'er currently(and for the past few years with DTV, much longer via NTSC), and so I don't "write a book" concerning some of the observations I've made that relate to your comments, follows are notes on just a few observations I've made :

One evening, I was receiving local station WDTN-DT(RF 50, VC2) - Dayton Ohio - 12 miles just fine, as usual, including off the back side of the antenna. At the same time, given "proper antenna aiming" with a little help from tropo I was also receiving WKRN-DT(RF 27, VC 2), Nashville, TN(277 miles).

With this particular receiver(Zenith HDV420 - ATSC only) I'm using, there is no problem "tuning" directly to a RF channel that isn't selected in it's "channel surf list" and decoding any signal that might be present there. The "channel list" allows the user to use channel up/down button to "surf" through local stations by VC # which are actually "selected"(by RF channel number), either manually by the user or by a auto "channel scan" in it's "channel list". In additon to allowing 'up/down button' channel surfing by VC #, "selecting" the approrioate RF channel number on the list also allows the user to tune directly to the station on that RF channel by the PSIP VC #, or also specifically the major/minor VC channel number combination to directly access a particular subchannel ....

Well, It occured to me at the time that since both of these stations I was receiving were using the same VC #, that it would be interesting to check and see what happened if I selected BOTH RF 50 and RF 27 in the "channel edit list". Here's what happened ... BOTH stations showed up when using channel up/down button to move through their VC#'s ...I don't recall in which order, it was either - moving channel up -- 2.1(WDTN), "channel UP" 2.2(WDTN sd subchannel), "channel UP" THEN 2.1 again(WKRN-DT) or vice versa : 2.1 WKRN-DT UP 2.1 WDTN-DT UP 2.2 WDTN-DT : -- with no problems whatsoever decoding anything. I also don't recall which particular station "came up" if I punched in "2" or "2.1" (it did work however, and I just had to channel Up to get to the other station), 2.2 brought up WDTN's SD subchannel ...

Here's another example which is a more common occurance here given a bit of "short range" tropo scatter ... I often pick up WBNS-DT (RF 21, VC 10) Columbus Ohio ...78 miles 70 deg azimuth(az) ... on a number of occasions, I also pick up WUPX-DT (RF21, VC 67) : 121 miles, 152 deg az. ... So, Aim antenna towards Columbus, punch in "21" WBNS-DT pops up, receiver shows a remap to 10-1 .... start rotating antenna clockwise, the receiver loses a lock on WBNS-DT ... By the time the antenna gets aimed towards the SSE(since of course the receiver is still actually still "tuned" to RF 21), the reciever gets lock on WUPX-DT(still RF 21), audio/video decodes just fine. Remember, I've haven't touched the receiver's controls at this point. Now, if I hit the button that shows the "channel banner info" it now says "67-1" for the PSIP info that is being received from WUPX-DT -- No problem whatsoever ... Aim antenna back towards Columbus ... WBNS-DT pops back up With 10-1 remap - lather, rinse repeat, same result each time ... With this particular receiver, it seems to allways "check" the PSIP from the station when it first gets a lock on the signal, and if the corresponding RF channel is selected in it's "Channel list" it will then "update" it's memory with the new info accordingly, including each time you "tune" to that channel(either via RF channel or the VCVC) .... If it's not in the "channel edit list", it really doesn't matter what PSIP info the station is sending, as in this case the only way to tune to it is via it's RF channel #, although it will still allways display the remapped, VC(whatever the station is sending for major_channel_number and minor_channel_number fields in VCT) in the channel banner display ...

Besides running across what can sometimes happen if stations don't properly implement the info in their PSIP tables, the only psip related issue for Dx'ing work I can think of with the Zenith 420 occurs if a ATSC DX station I want to receive is making it through a local analog to the extent I can receive it. In which case, since I usually have the local stations "programmed in" the channel edit list, I must deselect the actual RF channel # from HDV420's "channel list" for the local DTV station corresponding to the local analog station channel #(the DTV stations VC or course)is using, so I can then actually directly "tune" to the RF channel that the local DTV station "remaps" to, OR a auto channel scan given proper antenna aiming/etc would work as well .. For instance -- Local station WPTO-DT is on RF 28, VC 14(analog on 14 of course). On a number of occasions, WCMH-DT 14 (VC 4) blasts in via a bit of tropo, so in order to be able to actually "tune" to RF 14(and again, a channel scan with antenna aimed towards Columbus when it's "strong enough" would work as well), I have to "deselect" 28 in the HDV420's channel edit list .... And yes, WCMH-DT 14(78miles az 70) really "snows up" WPTO 14 analog(18 miles, 252 deg) off the back of the antenna occasionally ....

Now, I also have another receiver here ... DTC-100 -- which does both ATSC+NTSC ... It's more "problematic", I don't think necessarily so much because of PSIP related issues. Although a rescan does seem to be required with it in many cases to "update" PSIP info coming from a station for any given RF channel, such as if a station changes some of the info in its PSIP VCT. However -- on DTC-100, a analog signal lock easily overrides where a digital station HAD been, but it won't let a digital(even a strong one) "override" where a analog station lock had been acheived on such and such channel previously, even if the NTSC signal is no longer present in any shape or form. For instance ... I have a strong local digital on RF 10, VC9 WCPO-DT, Cincinnati, Ohio - 32 miles azimuth 188. I achieve perfect reception of it. However .... there is also a nearby anlaog station WBNS 10, Columbus Ohio - 78 miles, 70 deg Azimuth. And, even under "dead band" condtions, say, 99% of the time, if I aim antenna towards Columbus and the receiver is tuned to RF 10 (or VC 9), the NTSC side of the receiver will "take over" and "lock" on WBNS 10 analog signal ... Now ... The ONLY way I'll get WCPO-DT back again, is if I aim antenna "relatively" near Cincinnati and do a channel rescan on the receiver ... Now, that won't be much of an issue at my location after analog shut off(yeah right like my DTC-100 will still be working then) except perhaps occasionally(most often via e-skip, although I receive candian stations via tropo occasionally as well) if there are still Mexican, or Canadian NTSC stations on the air ...

I really can't comment too much on how DTC-100 handles some of the PSIP channel remapping issues that may occur, as for the most part I've used it with the PSIP stuff turned off, as DTC-100 actually allows the user to turn PSIP OFF(via it's "Off air guides" on/off function) completely and use the RF channel numbers/MPEGII program stream #'s.

George Molnar

02-23-05, 07:29 AM

I wonder what percentage of viewers will ultimately be affected by this OTA tuning issue as opposed to watching via CATV or DSS (or some other technology yet to emerge).

foxeng

02-23-05, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by joblo
As I indicated previously, I think the early adopters are not representative of the overall OTA viewing population.

Perhaps not, but many are not technophiles or HD enthusiasts either, and I suspect they will be rather less patient and forgiving than current users.

So you seem to mean only technophiles or HD enthusiasts can do digital OTA? I can most EMPHATICALLY say that is a false assumption. With NASCAR now in HD, I find the higher the IQ, the more help they need. The common folk are not seeming to be having any problems. The most problems I have are with the people with home theater systems who get them installed by a "professional" and then they never seem to stop having problems.

However...
I do find it interesting/amusing that you seem to have a higher opinion of the viewing public than you do of its elected representatives......

Yep. The viewing public has some kind of clue. They aren't sure what that clue is but they know it. The elected representatives are only in it for the next vote. History is a good teacher.

bdfox18doe

02-23-05, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by foxeng

The most problems I have are with the people with home theater systems who get them installed by a "professional" and then they never seem to stop having problems.[/B]

Amen to that especially those "pro" installers that put the antenna on the directv dish..

Nitewatchman

02-23-05, 02:14 PM

Maybe every town needs a broadcast engineer turned antenna installer who is out there promoting DTV and installing antennas/STB's, as they have in Chambersburg, PA as described in this article(for as long as link remains active) :

http://www.publicopiniononline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050205/NEWS01/502050301/1002

joblo

02-24-05, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
With this particular receiver(Zenith HDV420 - ATSC only) [...]
Now, I also have another receiver here ... DTC-100
LOL... Jeff, this is really funny... I've been DXing TV off and on for over 35 years (DT since 2000 or 2001, I think), and I have the same two receivers you do! (Probably for the same reasons... better than average signal meters on those boxes, eh?)

I really like the fact that the Zenith only does ATSC, because I really don't want to see analog stations on my DT boxes. For this reason, I never do a channel scan on the DTC-100 except when I disconnect the antennas and use it to clear the VCT. (If anyone knows a way to remove a channel from the DTC100's VCT w/out a scan, I'd love to hear it!) After clearing the VCT with a scan and power cycling the receiver (necessary to also clear the antenna info table, which is apparently different from the internal VCT, but is apparently rebuilt based on the VCT during boot), I then add each digital channel by entering its RF channel number. The cool thing is that the entry in the VCT locks out the RF for that channel, so I can then enter the station's major number only and go directly to the digital rather than the analog channel.

Unfortunately, WMAR 2 in Baltimore (I'm In NoVa, get DT from DC/Baltimore) recently began forcing it's analog station into the table by including in the PSIP for its digital channel. With only one station doing this, it isn't too bad, but if the practice becomes common, I'll go back to no-guides mode, which I used until a couple years or so ago when PSIP usage became prevalent in this area.

I agree that the DTC100 is generally more problematic than the Zenith, but I've often found that when a channel won't decode for some reason even though the signal meter indicates a healthy signal, simply tuning the station's RF instead of the VC restores normal operation. When that doesn't work, I reboot. (I actually have the thing on an RS/X10 home automation relay so I can power cycle it by remote.) The only times that didn't work, the problem was occurring on the Zenith also, so I figured it was the station's problem and just waited for them to fix it.

I do have a vague recollection from long ago, before I bought the Zenith and when stations in this area were still doing experimental things, that there were times when you tune a station only in no-guides mode, but with guides enabled you would only see a black screen. The nature of the broadcasts in those situations made me think this behavior was intended, i.e. regular viewers were not supposed to see these transmissions.

Re VC conflicts on the DTC-100, I have on occasion received WTTG-5/36 from DC and WNYW-5/44 from NYC at the same time, and the DTC-100 puts the last RF tuned into the VCT, replacing what was there before. So you can select either one as long as no other station claims its RF as a VC. Interestingly, though, I have a vague recollection that when I did a scan just to see what would happen, it put the first RF it found in the table and ignored the second. I had forgotten what the Zenith did until you mentioned it, but you're right, it put both in the VCT, don't remember in which order.

Question re two DTs on same RF via rotor: does this give you two permanent entries in the VCT for the same RF, or does the new one displace the old like what happens on the DTC100 with two RFs for the same VC? I.e. if you tune to station A first and then point the antenna at station B, could you then enter station's A's VC and still see B, complete with a channel display indicating station B's VC?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by foxeng
So you seem to mean only technophiles or HD enthusiasts can do digital OTA?
Uh, no, not exactly... ya know, I really have been trying to be polite about this, but, umm...

Well, let me put it this way:

When I read all the various threads here about all the various things that people should try or have tried in order to get better HD reception, I sometimes get the impression that there are some folks here, who, if told they could get HD by holding a kumquat two feet over their head with one hand while rubbing their stomach with the other and jumping up and down on one foot, would try it!

OTOH, many if not most of the late adopters -- the ones still happily watching analog and ignoring DTV completely -- are likely to conclude that if they have to spend an hour twiddling and scanning and twiddling and scanning in order to get a TV picture, that perhaps that hour might be better spent doing something else... like, say, reading a book...

I can most EMPHATICALLY say that is a false assumption. With NASCAR now in HD, I find the higher the IQ, the more help they need.
Ahem... methinks, sir -- or perhaps, madam, not to make any assumptions ;) -- that it is you who are making the false assumptions re correlation between HD or NASCAR enthusiasm and IQ.... ;)

Seriously, tho...

What I am suggesting is there is a positive correlation between willingness to invest money in something and willingness to invest time in it. Non-HD enthusiasts watching OTA TV, especially those using rabbit ears, are indicating by their choices that they do not value TV that highly. When these people get a digital set, they'll do the channel scan once as part of the out-of-the-box setup, and then they'll select a channel. If they don't get a picture, they'll fiddle with the rabbit ears a bit, and if they still don't get a picture, they'll give up and switch channels, or simply turn the set off.

So a station whose RF doesn't match its VC will be at a competitive disadvantage with these folks because the rabbit ears fiddling will never work if the initial scan fails.

Now, for stations with a low VC, this OTA disadvantage will be more than offset by the advantage of having a low channel number in the far larger cable/satellite world.

BUT... stations moving from a UHF analog to a VHF digital will stand to improve their competitive position in both the OTA and cable/satellite universe if they re-brand to their VHF digital channel after the NTSC station goes dark. And I predict they'll lobby the FCC and Congress to do just that.

Now the players most likely to object to this change would be the ones who currently have the big NTSC VHFs in the big markets, including big ownership groups like the networks themselves. (You may recall Fox put itself on the map by swiping a bunch of VHFs in the New World deal some years back.) But if/when the big guys object, the smaller market guys will surely whine and moan about dominance of the major networks and how the little affiliates just can't compete anymore, yadda, yadda....

I give it two years post NTSC shutdown max -- two years being the term of office for the members of Congress who depend on these small market local stations to air their campaign messages -- before the VC rules are modified to give stations the option to re-brand to their new RF.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by George Molnar
I wonder what percentage of viewers will ultimately be affected by this OTA tuning issue as opposed to watching via CATV or DSS (or some other technology yet to emerge).
Ultimately, it will approach zero. The question is how it will get there. :)

Nitewatchman

02-24-05, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by joblo
LOL... Jeff, this is really funny... I've been DXing TV off and on for over 35 years (DT since 2000 or 2001, I think), and I have the same two receivers you do! (Probably for the same reasons... better than average signal meters on those boxes, eh?)

I really like the fact that the Zenith only does ATSC, because I really don't want to see analog stations on my DT boxes.

That is funny that we are using the same receivers. I started Tv dx'ing quite casually as a kid in the 70's, but didn't start keeping logs until early 2002 ... I also got my ham ticket in late 70's and especially enjoyed CW(morse code) contacts, and quickly found out that observing tropo/E-skip conditions was just as fun as tuning around on HF Ham bands and observing HF propagation ...

I particularly like the Zenith for the same reasons you do, but I wish it would support more PSIP functions besides the V-Chip/ratings stuff and Channel remapping, since you still have to ID stations, for the most part "the old fashioned way" with it .... About the only thing I use DTC-100 for anymore DX wise is to look at station callsign that many stations seem to send via PSIP ...

For the first couple of years of DTV dx'ing, I was using the DTC-100 only, I often did get a little tired of analog stations popping up when I was looking for DT's, although strangely enough I did log some analog stations I probably wouldn't have noticed otherwise ...

BTW, Dayton+Cincinnati are my local markets ... I'm in Cincinnati DMA according to the "books", which I've allways thought was sort of funny since I'm 32~39 miles from Cincinnati towers and only 12 miles from Dayton antenna farm ...

Originally posted by joblo

Interestingly, though, I have a vague recollection that when I did a scan just to see what would happen, it put the first RF it found in the table and ignored the second.

That is interesting, you'd think it would overwrite the value from the first one during the scan! LOL ... When I was using the DTC pretty extensively for DX, If I turned on the guides, I would often end up just getting way too confused and would generally only turn the guides on to try to get station ID via PSIP .... of course, by the time It did a "full rescan", the signal was often gone ...

Originally posted by joblo
Question re two DTs on same RF via rotor: does this give you two permanent entries in the VCT for the same RF, or does the new one displace the old like what happens on the DTC100 with two RFs for the same VC?

I think at least in any instance I've checked it that I can remember, the new one replaces the old one(rewrites the entry in VCT for that RF channel) as soon as signal lock is achieved on the "new" station. I oftentimes don't "select" the RF channel in the channel edit list while Dx'ing however, either manually or via autoscan, as I usually will be just Dx'ing by manually tuning to RF channel #, seeing some sort of indication of signal on the meter and waiting for the signal to fade up to a lock, if it already hasn't. Usually, I'll just have the local RF DT channels selected in the channel edit list, unless I go to check to see how the remapping is effecting things.

Originally posted by joblo
I.e. if you tune to station A first and then point the antenna at station B, could you then enter station's A's VC and still see B, complete with a channel display indicating station B's VC?

I've checked this before, but I'll have to take better notes next time just to make sure I remember it, LOL. I'm pretty sure what happened was(with the RF channel 21 selected in the channel list), you would have to input station B's VC for that. For instance ... using the same stations as I used previously as an example :

Station A: RF 21 VC 10
Station B: RF 21 VC 67

Only ways to get to station B in the example you provided would be to punch in "21" or "67". And, actually what would happen in this particular case would be: If I punched in Station A's VC# (given antenna aiming involved) I would be taken to Station C, Local on RF10, VC9.

However --- and this is the main reason why I should have taken better notes ---- I do seem to recall one instance concerning these particular stations when station B was sending some "messed up" PSIP info, and although Station B did decode(at least to some extent, I wasn't able to move through it's different mutlicast services), info from station A was still "stuck" in receiver's VCT. Other Dx'er's in the area reported not being able to decode it at all at the time(which lasted about a month until they "fixed it" If I recall correctly) on most receivers)

Originally posted by joblo

So a station whose RF doesn't match its VC will be at a competitive disadvantage with these folks because the rabbit ears fiddling will never work if the initial scan fails.

Don't mean to butt in on your conversation with Foxeng ... But, What surprised me is some things in the rules for the channel election/repacking process that I think relate somewhat to your comments as well. I had thought via the channel election/repacking process, they would want to make it so stations would all have as even of a playing field as possible concerning what channel election choice(for, say stations with 2 in-core assignments) they would make. Or, I would have expected the analog assignment to be the choice which would be "encouraged" by the commission, but in many cases, the opposite seems to be true ...

For example ... The rules seem to say that a station which elects to remain on it's current DTV assignment will pretty much have "priority" in cases when there may be a interference protection conflict. But, a station electing to move back to its analog assignment would have to protect a nearby co-channel station which remained on it's current DTV assignment ...

The FCC's interference conflict analysis for the first round of elections should be occurring presently, I believe.

For example ... In my area ...

WCPO 9/DT 10 Cincinnati made a first round choice to stay on it's current DTV assignment 10.

WBNS 10/DT 21 Columbus made first round election to move DT back to it's analog assignment.

WCPO/WBNS are only a little over 90 miles apart. Currently, WBNS 10 runs a non DA at 316KW ERP. WCPO-DT runs a non DA at 16.3KW ERP, and recently just "maximized" that from their "full power" 13.7 KW ERP CP.

So, given the "rules", depending upon what FCC finds in the interference conflict analysis(they say in the rules DTV to DTV co-channel interference is 1db worse than analog to DTV interference), it just seems strange to me that there is a possibility WBNS may get "penalized" to at least some extent for choosing to move back to their VHF analog assignment ...

It gets more complicated of course ... If WCPO had chosen to move their DT back to their analog assignment, then THEY would have to protect WISH 8/DT 9 Indy(also not much more than 100 miles away), which elected to keep it's DT on 9, WGN chicago being a potental issue there as well ... If WISH had moved to 8, however, They would have had to protect stations such as WLIO 35/DT 8 Lima, OH, also fairly close to Indy which elected to keep its DT on 8 after analog shut off ...

Since many stations in my area seem to be sticking to their current DTV assignments(and it seems to me in most cases, around here anyway they made those choices for good reason/reasons), with less than I expected wanting to return to their analog channel assignment -- I think we may end up with a situation where more stations are sharing fewer number of channels and co-channel interference issues are likely to be WORSE after analog shut off than they ever were in the past, and especially when a little tropo rolls in ....

Originally posted by joblo
many if not most of the late adopters -- the ones still happily watching analog and ignoring DTV completely --

I know many folks who use OTA who don't care, won't care and will probably never care about analog or DTV or any such thing. They just want to come home, and watch the news and occasionally a few hours of TV for entertainment off their rabbit ears or VHF/UHF combo on the roof ....

IMO, These folks aren't likely to go out and buy a DTV receiver until it's in their sets,even if the receivers are inexpensive, and widely available as a "converter box" with RF modulator -- at least until the TV stations start telling them about it, or until their screens go "snowy" ...

foxeng

02-24-05, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by joblo
Uh, no, not exactly... ya know, I really have been trying to be polite about this, but, umm...

Well, let me put it this way:

When I read all the various threads here about all the various things that people should try or have tried in order to get better HD reception, I sometimes get the impression that there are some folks here, who, if told they could get HD by holding a kumquat two feet over their head with one hand while rubbing their stomach with the other and jumping up and down on one foot, would try it!

Let me first start off my saying I do not base my statements on this subject with opinion and guesses. I base it on ACTUAL conversations with the public. I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday on analog or digital TV.

If you are looking for "professional" results from AVSForum, you are looking in the wrong place. Very few professionals post here. AVS's strength is it is a place where like minded people can go and discuss (more or less) their problems, hopes and desires and try things and help each other out, and it does that wonderfully and serves a great purpose. It gets information out without costing an arm and a leg like a professional would charge. Thank goodness for AVS. I personally recommend it every chance I get because of that. I like to post here to help people cut through all of the mumbo-jumbo that is digital TV. And you are right, there are MANY things that do not make ANY sense!

OTOH, many if not most of the late adopters -- the ones still happily watching analog and ignoring DTV completely -- are likely to conclude that if they have to spend an hour twiddling and scanning and twiddling and scanning in order to get a TV picture, that perhaps that hour might be better spent doing something else... like, say, reading a book...

If you truly believe that, you haven't been talking to the folks. I have and it is amazing how well the public does in matters like this with just a thread of information. Yes, they will go off the deep end on occasion, but the ones who don't want to experiment or take the time to put up antennas go cable anyway for the very reason you sight. You will always have some people who will ONLY do OTA because they can't afford cable/sat or for what ever reason has some beef with cable or sat. (I personally will not get cable no matter what happens since I have a beef with my local cable company. I use sat and OTA and DSL for broadband and I obviously CAN afford it)

Ahem... methinks, sir -- or perhaps, madam, not to make any assumptions ;) -- that it is you who are making the false assumptions re correlation between HD or NASCAR enthusiasm and IQ.... ;)

WOW! You don't know who I am, where I am, what I know or what I do, but you are sure I am wrong on this one. OK, I will play along. ;)

Please allow me to state my case.

First off, I am QUITE male, (as my wife says, typical male :) ) I live in the THE number 1 NASCAR market in the country with over half of all NASCAR teams are within 50 miles of my transmitter (it is tough on me since I care NOT ONE THING about NASCAR), I work with spouses of NASCAR names fans would recognize, I eat in many of the same restaurants the NASCAR team members eat in, I see many of the NASCAR folks on the streets and I talk to many of the NASCAR fans on the phone asking questions about HD and how to get it. Based on that, IMHO, I MIGHT have idea what I am talking about on this subject.

Seriously, tho...

What I am suggesting is there is a positive correlation between willingness to invest money in something and willingness to invest time in it. Non-HD enthusiasts watching OTA TV, especially those using rabbit ears, are indicating by their choices that they do not value TV that highly. When these people get a digital set, they'll do the channel scan once as part of the out-of-the-box setup, and then they'll select a channel. If they don't get a picture, they'll fiddle with the rabbit ears a bit, and if they still don't get a picture, they'll give up and switch channels, or simply turn the set off.

While this all sounds perfectly feasible, I submit to you, they will do what I said earlier, go to cable or satellite when the HD LIL's start. Because it is EASIER, just like they went to cable in the first place, it is easier to hook up a cable in the back of the TV than it is to go play on the roof with antenna that gives a crappy picture anyway. One of the first questions, if not the first question is "Are you on XXX Cable or are on DirecTV or Dish?" They really do not want to go the antenna route and when confronted with the current day realities, they then relent, but I am sure they will bolt back to cable as soon as they can.

One thing I have learned in all my years in broadcasting, people will not be denied their TV's, PERIOD. Look at those who are rabid Voom or D* or E* supporters. They are just the tip of the iceberg.

So a station whose RF doesn't match its VC will be at a competitive disadvantage with these folks because the rabbit ears fiddling will never work if the initial scan fails.

Now, for stations with a low VC, this OTA disadvantage will be more than offset by the advantage of having a low channel number in the far larger cable/satellite world.

BUT... stations moving from a UHF analog to a VHF digital will stand to improve their competitive position in both the OTA and cable/satellite universe if they re-brand to their VHF digital channel after the NTSC station goes dark. And I predict they'll lobby the FCC and Congress to do just that.

Now the players most likely to object to this change would be the ones who currently have the big NTSC VHFs in the big markets, including big ownership groups like the networks themselves. (You may recall Fox put itself on the map by swiping a bunch of VHFs in the New World deal some years back.) But if/when the big guys object, the smaller market guys will surely whine and moan about dominance of the major networks and how the little affiliates just can't compete anymore, yadda, yadda....

I recall quite well the New World deal. My station was one of those New World VHF's you are talking about and I saw it from the inside.

I submit, the people who have watched TV OTA will not have major problems since they already deal with OTA issues, they are used to antennas. The people who have problems are the people who have had cable or satellite and this "HD TV thing" isn't available on cable or satellite and now they have to learn a crash course about antennas. When HD becomes the norm on cable and satellite, most of these people will abandon the OTA antenna for many reasons for the convenience of cable. That is based on historical record, not my personal opinion.

I give it two years post NTSC shutdown max -- two years being the term of office for the members of Congress who depend on these small market local stations to air their campaign messages -- before the VC rules are modified to give stations the option to re-brand to their new RF.

You are certainly welcome to believe that, but for the reasons I have stated above, I really do not see that happening. MSO penetration numbers continue to rise as OTA as an only methodology continues to decrease.

Now, personally, I like to TV DX. I have a modest listening post with a CM 4228 and a Delhi-Jerrold VIP-307SR into my HD STB box, my analog set and a WinTV-D card (just ordered a pcHDTV 3000 card to try). I did a lot of TV DXing growing up in the 70's, but now I have a job and all that, I don't get to do it much, but when I do, I try and have the gear ready to do it. I do wish I had kept a log in those days, but I just got a big kick out of seeing what I could see.

My best one from that time was when I picked up WCVB in Boston early one Monday morning during the peak of the sunspot cycle in the late 70's after all of the other channel 5's on the east coast signed off. It was great to watch WNEW (at the time, now FOX WNYW) New York, WTTG, DC and WRAL, Raleigh sign on and wipe the last station on off the dial! Ah, those were the days!