What is this??

[Alan Gouger]

Wow looks like this could light up an auditorium. Some cool stuff.
Im not sure what this is but Im guessing Ive posted it to the right forum. Wondering what that is behind the equipment rack. It looks like it could be a horn loaded subwoofer or maybe its just for show. Sorry if this has been posted before.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/2Homecinema.jpg

[oneobgyn]

Alan, if I am not mistaken these are Avant Garde Treos (horns) with the Avant Garde Bass horns in the rear. Yes they can light up an auditorium

I heard them at HE2003 in SF last year and found them a little loud for my ears but still excellent nonetheless

[Alan Gouger]

May not be very practical for the average home but very impressive. I bet they are very efficient.
Looks like a lot of money sitting there.

[Andrikos]

What you actually see is 6 Basshorns.
You can buy *only* one if you want... ;)

Anyone else think that putting all the gear in the middle of the soundstage is, ahem, NOT good?

[Mr.Poindexter]

Andrikos, I don't think it matters at all for the Avant Garde speakers, since the horns are designed to take all the sound and focus it forward. I would expect the off-axis volume to utterly plummet with their system and so the basshorns wouldn't interfere with anything other than sound reflected from the back wall to the front again.

I find their selections of amps to be rather large for speakers that advertises that it requires a minimum of 1 watt to drive them. I don't think they can handle more than 10 watts but can make your ears bleed with that much juice.

[oneobgyn]

6 basshorns with Treos on either side

[Alan Gouger]

You can see the guys foot sitting in the chair. He started out sitting right up front but when they turned on the system his chair slid to the back from the wind storm:)

Does anyone really actually buy something like this. Would you use this in your home or for larger areas. How many do you think they sell per year.

Thanks!

[Mr.Poindexter]

I was looking at these as a possible replacement for my IRS V, but I decided against it.

[ChrisWiggles]

Anyone else think that putting all the gear in the middle of the soundstage is, ahem, NOT good?

Big vote from me.

Yeah horns can be more directional, but still...

[Dean_Mc]

http://www.avantgarde-usa.com/home.html

Sensitivity 107 dB.

This isn't the only product they sell. You can decide to make a little less of a statement. :)

I thought they sounded great. They sell enough to keep a dealer near me in business so somebody is buying them.

[Bugleboy]

Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Does anyone really actually buy something like this. Would you use this in your home or for larger areas. How many do you think they sell per year.

Alan, would you believe me if I told you that some folks in New York City have the Trios w/ a stack of bass horns IN THEIR APARTMENT? In fact, an Avantgarde dealer in Manhattan used to have one in his showroom to demo.

[MRJAZZZ]

THE electronics appear to be all ESOTERIC, from TEAC. The top item, center, with the large curved corners, is their new statement transport, 25k msrp. To the left/right, lower down, are their statement mono bloc dacs!. I believe each one goes for a cool 20k ! 65K for a digital front end, and if you want to add their rubinium (sp?) clock, another 15k, or so.

CHEERS, TOM
PS, i know several well connected, and experienced audiophiles, who have AVANT GARDE speakers, and swear by them.

[Ron Party]

The Avantgarde room at H.E. 2003 in San Francisco was one of my three favorite rooms. The Pink Floyd demo was amazing. However, I'm not so sure they have any WAF working in their favor.

-------------------------------------
Ron Party

[Alan Gouger]

Originally posted by Bugleboy
Alan, would you believe me if I told you that some folks in New York City have the Trios w/ a stack of bass horns IN THEIR APARTMENT? In fact, an Avantgarde dealer in Manhattan used to have one in his showroom to demo.

I guess I can relate. If I had the chance to install a commercial Digital 4k projection system the size of a car in my home I would in a second. Id let the machine take over the kitchen If thats what it took:)

[QQQ]

Originally posted by oneobgyn
I heard them at HE2003 in SF last year and found them a little loud for my ears but still excellent nonetheless
Could you explain what you mean by that? A speaker is not "loud". Do you mean they were playing them too loud?

[TheMadMilkman]

Perhaps the color choice was too loud?

[oneobgyn]

A speaker is not "loud". Do you mean they were playing them too loud?

We were warned when we sat down that the volume was cranked to over 110 dB.

They played 3 tracks, one of which was from the Burmester Reference CD #2 -Pink Floyd, The Wall. The imaging was terriffic and the bass slam left a hole in my chest but I had tinnitus for hours after the demo. The room used all BAT front end gear and amplification which showed off the speakers and the bass horns. It was a large room but far too loud for anyone to listen to music for prolonged periods of time without doing some serious damage to your auditory nerves

[QQQ]

Thanks. I submitted that question for Max ;).

[oneobgyn]

Thanks. I submitted that question for Max .

:)

Max didn't reincarnate as DEET did he?

[oneobgyn]

Perhaps the color choice was too loud?

TMM--if memory serves me correctly, the speakers were in bright blue and/or red

[scooter_29]

The last time I heard the Trios it was with a bunch of basshorns and it was one of the most unlistenable and ear fatiguing experiences I have had with audio. On the other side of the room were Wilson Maxx and while Wilson isn't my cup of tea, they were the most pleasant experience after hearing the AGs. I have heard the AGs on many occassions and after the first time, I almost went out and bought some Duos. However, every subsequent run-in with the speaker has gone from bad to unlistenable. I don't know what it was about the first experience but everyone since has been poor to say the least. The thing that really gets me about the AGs is even though their literature all speaks to the contrary, close examination of the parts really makes one wonder (a relatively thin plastic tube in the back just doesn't do it for me). I am amazed that anyone said these things have imaging as it has been one of the biggest disappointements everytime I have heard them. The one thing you can say about them is that they play loud.

[oneobgyn]

The one thing you can say about them is that they play loud.

Precisely my point :(

[Richie Duroseau]

Originally posted by oneobgyn
Alan, if I am not mistaken these are Avant Garde Treos (horns) with the Avant Garde Bass horns in the rear. Yes they can light up an auditorium..

Avantgarde Trios, not Treos. BAT voice their amplifiers with Duos. Their are senstional with Jazz. I have the Unos.

[Richie Duroseau]

Originally posted by scooter_29
[B.. The one thing you can say about them is that they play loud. [/B]

They play more than just loud. Why do you think an amplifier company like BAT uses them??

[scooter_29]

Originally posted by Richie Duroseau
They play more than just loud. Why do you think an amplifier company like BAT uses them??

Ah, now all of a sudden you get defensive when someone criticizes something you own. Just because BAT uses them now they are a guaranteed reference? Well, the Trios I heard were driven by BAT and the entire experience was not only underwhelming, it was downright unlistenable. They had no imaging, no coherence between the drivers, and a very slight movement of your head caused any semblance of imaging to go out the window. Oh, and the other incredibly annoying thing about the entire setup was the quantity of amplified tube noise was enough to drive me out of the room. Maybe listening to them with jazz floats your boat because they play loud but they had no capacity to convey anything classical I threw at them.

[oneobgyn]

Scooter I completely agree.

The AG Trios were probably the worst sound I ever heard and yes it used all BAT front end gear. My ears rang for hours afterwards. Personally I would NEVER own AG horns. Just not my cup of tea.

It was a speaker that I could best describe as "good from far but far from good."

[Dean_Mc]

How did you get from "but still excellent nonetheless" to "worst sound I ever heard." ?

[TheMadMilkman]

I believe that after having so many people slam his system and choices when he first joined this forum, OB has developed a very political way of posting his own thoughts.

[Digital2004]

LOL ALan, i exactly think the same :D . ditch the kitchen and replace it with a super mega projection boot with a 4K or high contrast DILA or those professional SXRD by Sony, with a rack full of power amps too. well, a cinema at home :)

[oneobgyn]

Originally posted by Dean_Mc
How did you get from "but still excellent nonetheless" to "worst sound I ever heard." ?

Dean...when I heard the Trios with the Basshorns at HE2003 in San Francisco the sound was so loud that it was painful to my ears and left me with tinnitus for hours. We were warned that the volume in the room would be at 110 dB. It was as if the demo had to be at this volume to create the bass slam which literally sent concussion waves into my chest. It was "the worst sound I ever heard". A great way to go deaf quickly.

At CES 2004 I heard the Trios in a more modest setting and in a smaller room at lower sound levels and found them better tolerated. However like Scooter, it is a speaker that I personally would never own. I found them to be very fatiguing for my ears when listened to over prolonged periods of time.

[Richie Duroseau]

Originally posted by scooter_29
.. Just because BAT uses them now they are a guaranteed reference? ..

Avantgardes speakers have to be compared to a Formula 1 racing car. They are not polite speakers, but fasten your seat belt and the'll take you to places where no ther speakers can go, effortlessly, either at live concert level or at very low backgroud level. They are the most lifelike and dynamic speakers I have heard, and they do it with no hardness, no grain and no coloration that I know of. The Trios are most often used with two pairs of SUB 225 CTRL Pro subs instead of the bass horns.

[scooter_29]

Originally posted by Richie Duroseau
They are the most lifelike and dynamic speakers I have heard, and they do it with no hardness, no grain and no coloration that I know of.

I think you are just mistaking them for being loud... they were awfully colored and incredibly hard...

[Richie Duroseau]

Originally posted by scooter_29
I think you are just mistaking them for being loud... they were awfully colored and incredibly hard...

You are mistaken. They don't have to be played loud, unlike Wilson's. They are not colored, and I am saying that owning also a pair of ML CLSIIZ, electrostatic speakers as transparent and uncolored as they come.

[QQQ]

Groucho Marx said "I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would accept me as a member". Along slightly different lines, I haven't even heard them, but I wouldn't want to own something Richie does. They must be horrible.

[Dizzman]

I might argue that anyone who chooses to listen at "concert levels" in any environment other than a.... CONCERT! Is not an audiophile.

I say this not as a point of personal taste, but as a point that arises form the consistent hearing damage that results from high SPL levels. Damage occurs far more quickly than most think, and the loss is cumulative. So my argument would be that if you listen at very high SPL levels frequently, you can't be an audiophile since you can't hear that which you profess to be an aficionado of.


I am not saying this to try to start a fight, i am just saying it as a general point. I am not an MD, so it is possible that i could be off, but i have been involved in the Pro Audio world in various capacities for the last 15 years.

[Bugleboy]

I have to agree w/ Scooter. The AGs are just god awful sounding speakers. Plus, what a dissapointment in build quality. Speakers in that price range really shouldn't use so much flimsy plastic.

[Richie Duroseau]

Originally posted by Dizzman
I might argue that anyone who chooses to listen at "concert levels" in any environment other..

All you have to do is to turn down the volume:rolleyes: Most retailers play them too loud. Unlike Wilson's you won't miss anything at low volume.

[oneobgyn]

I say this not as a point of personal taste, but as a point that arises form the consistent hearing damage that results from high SPL levels. Damage occurs far more quickly than most think, and the loss is cumulative. So my argument would be that if you listen at very high SPL levels frequently, you can't be an audiophile since you can't hear that which you profess to be an aficionado of.

Well stated and very accurate as well I might add.

This was my point when I listened at HE2003 as it left me with tinnitus for hours

As for listening at low levels with Wilson speakers and missing things, this is down right laughable. My only response to the collective reading this thread is to look only as to who made the assertion and then judge for yourselves.

I would question how many awards AG's have won.

Let me put this link up to attest to the virtues of Wilson speakers (which our self proclaimed audiophile Richie states misses at low levels.)

http://www.wilsonaudio.com/awards/index.html

[Richie Duroseau]

"It is true; I spent considerable amount of time auditioning the Duo at the St. Tropez... The combination of clarity, lack of distortion, and stupendous dynamics was most impressive. Easily, Best Sound at Show, and I mean anywhere in Las Vegas!"
--Dick Olsher, CES 2000 report
Enjoy The Music.com, FI Magazine, etc

" The Avantgarde Duos have raised the reference level for loudspeakers."
-- Geoffrey Poor
Balanced Audio Technologiy

''Electrostatics now have a serious contender in the transparency stakes.. It is hard to imagine using anything else...
-- Chris Beeching
Audio Quarterly, UK

etc, etc..............................

[Richie Duroseau]

-- CES Innovations 2003
-- TOP AUDIO VIDEO SHOW, Milan 2002
-- HOME ENTERTAINMENT 2001, Tie for Best Home Theater of Show
-- ENJOY THE MUSIC.COM, Product of The Year 2001
-- Audio Video Interiors, Excellece in Design award of 2001
-- STEREOPHILE, Tie for Speaker of The Year 2000
-- THE ABSOLUTE SOUND, Golden Ear Award 2000
-- Hi-Fi NEWS, Cover Story, May 2000, immediacy, impact, emmotional communication...

OB, you are so new in this hobby!

[Michael Grant]

OB, you are so new in this hobby!What's that, the hobby of being a troll? I agree, he can't hold a candle to you.

[Richie Duroseau]

Talking about trolls.. Buy yourself a decent audio and hometheater system where you can test cables, then come back here:rolleyes:

[Michael Grant]

Richie, my dear, I only have trolls for you. *smooch*

[Richie Duroseau]

"... Just soaking up the Duos. It is the single finest product I have heard in the last 5 years. As soon as I have a chance, I will be selling my Wilson Maxx and replace it with a pair of Avantgardes..."

"Seldom during my 50 year quest for audio perfection have I purchased products that are so outstanding. I immediately know there's no reason to consider competing products.. Avantgarde speakers are such a major leap.. other speakers sound artificial and no longer cut it."

".. Most other speaker systems cannot create this live energy at low to modest listening levels whatsoever...""

etc, etc............................................

[TheMadMilkman]

Another great thread well on its way to being locked...

[Richie Duroseau]

Well, there is not a single serious audio professional who doesn't like the Avantgarde speakers.. Anyway, I am going to smell the roses for 24 hours:D

[Dizzman]

Opinion is fact! (at least around here)

There is no such thing as a perfect speaker. or a perfect system. there are only solutions that work for you. (unless you are using the same as me)

One mans poison... all that sort of thing.

[Dean_Mc]

Did I stumble on to the grade 5 playground forum?

If you're trying to hurt each others feelings I'm not sure it's working. If you're trying to get each other to buy the same equipment as you - you might try a different approach. Perhaps insulting someone's ancestry might be better...

[markrubin]

Please refrain from any insults or bashing: this is unacceptable

[Rutgar]

Originally posted by Dean_Mc
Did I stumble on to the grade 5 playground forum?

Yes. Also known as "High End Audio". :D

Sometimes, these guys leave me laughing for hours.


I've never heard any of the Avantgarde speakers. So, I can't comment on them myself. But, I can say that speakers that I've heard that use horns, are usually a bit too "hard" sounding for my taste. At least for home audio. They sound just fine for live bands, in large venues.

[Mr.Poindexter]

Originally posted by Richie Duroseau
Talking about trolls.. Buy yourself a decent audio and hometheater system where you can test cables, then come back here:rolleyes:

Yes, but make sure it is a good system, since my Lexicon MC-12 Balanced EQ V4 doesn't make the grade in Richie's book. The highest rating Stereophile Guide to Home Theater isn't good enough to test cables. You need a 10 year old Meridian surround sound processor for that.

Michael Grant wasn't running the cable test Richie, I was.

As for insulting ancestry - that is not allowed on this forum. Too bad, since my ancestors are monkeys and when insulted they respond by throwing poo.

[Mr.Poindexter]

Originally posted by Rutgar
I've never heard any of the Avantgarde speakers. So, I can't comment on them myself. But, I can say that speakers that I've heard that use horns, are usually a bit too "hard" sounding for my taste. At least for home audio. They sound just fine for live bands, in large venues.

Perhaps I am in the minority here, but I have never really been impressed with the quality of sound I hear in a concert. Granted, I never heard The 'Dead play and their concert sound was supposedly awesome, but the concerts that have come to town here have left a lot to be desired.

I think the only audio performance I have heard live where I preferred it to the recording was when I saw Phantom of the Opera in NYC years ago.

[Rutgar]

Probably the reason you've never been impressed by the sound at a concert, is because so many auditoriums sound just plain awful. Large echo'y spaces. Which is why horns are a good choice in these "rooms".

[Michael Grant]

ranted, I never heard The 'Dead play and their concert sound was supposedly awesome,I suspect there were other reasons for the perceived sound quality in those cases :)

By the way, are you liking your EQ upgrade for the MC12? I was considering an MC8->MC12V4 upgrade myself.

[Dizzman]

the only times i have heard good sound at a live event was either when i knew the engineer and he suggested i go see the gig, Or when i just enjoyed the band so much that i was moved far away from nit picking the sound quality.

Of course, there was also the night i decided with some friends (quite out of the blue) to go to the blue note in NY. We had no idea who was playing and as it turned out, the lineup that night was...

Grady Tate- Drums
Stanley Turrentine- Sax
Mark Whitfield- Gibson (because it just wouldn't be right to call that beautiful sound a "guitar")
And the piece de resistance...

Jimmy Smith- B3

Not bad for going to a club just cause we thought it might be fun.

we stayed for both sets.

[Rutgar]

Mark Whitfield- Gibson (because it just wouldn't be right to call that beautiful sound a "guitar")

It's not the guitar. It's the person playing it.

[oneobgyn]

It's not the guitar. It's the person playing it.

It's actually both

[Rutgar]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not the guitar. It's the person playing it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It's actually both


Er, No.

[Andrikos]

Wow, I should have my 5 y.o. boy read this thread.
It's definitely within his age/maturity group... :rolleyes:

[Mr.Poindexter]

Rutgar, if one is speaking of acoustic instruments it most certainly is both - hence the desire for higher quality instruments and the original reason for the value of Stradavarius violins.

Electric guitars are not my forte' but I would have to say that since you are using an electrical pick-up of an acoustic signal that we would agian be in the same ballpark as an acoustic guitar although arguably to a lesser degree.

Michael, I am enjoying the Lexicon but I started with EQ V4. My existing room has very good bass response and is incredibly flat without EQing so it wasn't as necessary. Even so, I am glad I got it. If you are going to look at going with the MC-12, you might want to look at going with the balanced system as well. While it (balanced output) can be added at a later date, it has to be sent back to the factory to have it done. The EQ V4 can be aded in the field.

[Michael Grant]

Yeah, I went with the unbalanced MC-8, even though my amp supports balanced inputs. At the time I wanted to tiptoe into the water, so to speak, with Lexicon. Now I am pleased with its features and basic performance, I'm more willing to invest the $$$ in the balanced version. Are you a dealer (or planning to be)?

[Rutgar]

Rutgar, if one is speaking of acoustic instruments it most certainly is both - hence the desire for higher quality instruments and the original reason for the value of Stradavarius violins.

Yes. And I understand what you're saying. But, it's still the talent of the player that makes it sound good. A Stradavarius in the hands of a 8 year old beginner, will sound like a violin from a local pawn shop. On the other hand, that same violin from the pawn shop, will sound like a Statovarius in the hands of a master.

[Michael Grant]

On the other hand, that same violin from the pawn shop, will sound like a Statovarius in the hands of a master.I am sure that even the master musician would agree that he requires a competent instrument to achieve his best work. Indeed they tend to be the most discriminating in that regard.

So by all means, the balance could very well be 99% musician/1% instrument, but it sure isn't 100% musician/0% instrument.

[Mr.Poindexter]

Michael, I cannot imagine a violinist that would have a Stradivarius and tell people it isn't his favorite violin without there being some amazing story as to why he/she would prefer a different violin.

Rutgar, a Stradivarius in the hands of an 8-year old (shudder) would sound like a Stradivarius in the hands of an 8-year old. While an instrument is just a tool to make music, it is a simple fact that some tools are better than others. All the training in the world would not let me sing as well as Aaron Neville because my vocal chords are just not that good. In fact, with a lot of training I might sound as good as William Hung - maybe. ;)

[Michael Grant]

Mr.P., some might not get the reference because I edited my post. For their benefit, I said something like "a Stradivarius---or whatever that master musician's favorite violin is." I imagine that you are right, that second part is redundant.

[Andrikos]

How about Ashlee Simpson Mr. P?
Can you emulate her in her vocal glory? ;) :D

[oneobgyn]

Yes. And I understand what you're saying. But, it's still the talent of the player that makes it sound good. A Stradavarius in the hands of a 8 year old beginner, will sound like a violin from a local pawn shop. On the other hand, that same violin from the pawn shop, will sound like a Statovarius in the hands of a master.

Like I said---it's both

[Goalline]

Originally posted by Andrikos
What you actually see is 6 Basshorns.
You can buy *only* one if you want... ;)

Anyone else think that putting all the gear in the middle of the soundstage is, ahem, NOT good?

Those speakers don't image anyway. Avantagarde regard imaging as an element of distortion. Whatever! :rolleyes:

[Dizzman]

Jeez... i was just talking about a big ole gibson in the hands of someone who was in a state of bliss while playing it.

My main reference is to the way that the sound of the gibson (and indeed in mark whitfields hands) is unmistakable.

So my meaning was indeed both.

[Richie Duroseau]

Originally posted by Mr.Poindexter
Perhaps I am in the minority here, but I have never really been impressed with the quality of sound I hear in a concert...

Because you have never been to a classical music concert or to an opera. It can be quite good, in fact always better than on CD.

[Dizzman]

So ron, have you ever been to a "REAL" concert?

[Richie Duroseau]

Originally posted by Rutgar
Probably the reason you've never been impressed by the sound at a concert, is because so many auditoriums sound just plain awful. Large echo'y spaces. Which is why horns are a good choice in these "rooms".

The Philharmonia Orchestra, The New York Philharmonic, the CSO, The Chicago Lyric Opera, The Metropolitan Opera, among others, have just fine venues.

[Mr.Poindexter]

Originally posted by Richie Duroseau
Because you have never been to a classical music concert or to an opera. It can be quite good, in fact always better than on CD.

I wrote a long reply but deleted it when I was almost done. There is no point in wasting that much of my time. Suffice it to say that I know where I have and haven't been much better than you do. I have been to the opera and heard classical music performances on many occasions.

The William Saroyan Theater in Fresno is not world renown and as such I can get a better performance in my living room. Suggesting that I instead fly to Chicago just to hear some music is not really an option.

[TheMadMilkman]

Originally posted by Richie Duroseau
The Philharmonia Orchestra, The New York Philharmonic, the CSO, The Chicago Lyric Opera, The Metropolitan Opera, among others, have just fine venues.

Yes, and so is Teatro Massimo Bellini in Catania, Italy. And yes, I've sat in the sweet spot while listening to an opera there. But that doesn't somehow make me a "better" audiophile than somebody who likes to listen in their living room.

[oneobgyn]

Ahhh--suddenly it is evening again and it is "welcome to the wonderful world of Richie" where we all learn how life in audiophilia really is or should be according to Richie.

Sit back everyone and let the fun begin

[oneobgyn]

But that doesn't somehow make me a "better" audiophile than somebody who likes to listen in their living room.

TMM--you know that you can only be considered an audiophile if (as Richie would have us believe) you own more than 400 CD's (otherwise we are just newbies)