AVS Forum Archive 2 - Is Denon going to make a PREAMP only?

Kevin C Brown

01-30-05, 06:39 PM

I heard a very strong rumor also that one'd be based on the 4806. Kind of doubt it'd be over $5k in that case. :) Doesn't preclude the more expensive one that's been rumored for quite some time.

Would be interesting to see Denon compete against the likes of Anthem, Lexicon, Integra Research, Primare, Arcam, Aragon, etc...

MStanic

01-30-05, 07:35 PM

At 10k plus...........wow.........way too much for me.

I hope they make one to compete with the likes of the D1 and IR 7.1 for example.

I'm surprised Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony and Denon don't make PREAMPS for HT regularly. With their marketing power and money, they could literally squash all of the smaller game players. I wonder why these companies stay away from PREAMPS? I know receivers will always sell more but there's also an exlcusive crowd of PREAMP enthusiasts. Don't they want a piece of this pie?

Kal Rubinson

01-30-05, 07:38 PM

When I asked the Denon managers about adapting one of their receivers for a pre/pro, they said that the idea had often been suggested, that they were considering it but that they had no plans at the moment. I hope that moment passes quickly.

Kal

akm3

01-30-05, 11:24 PM

There used ot be a denon only preamp called the AVP-1 I believe. It was essentially the same as their high end receiver, but 3x the price.

It made to sense to me.

-Allen

SMac770

01-30-05, 11:44 PM

Denon doesn't sell amps either. They'd have to bring those back to the US if they were also going to bring back a pre/pro. I assume the amps went away for a reason (they still sell them elsewhere), so are they going to bring them back just to support a pre/pro?

The previously referenced pre/pro was the AVP-8000 in the US. Probably called AVP-1 overseas, just like with the integrated amp version of the AVR-5805 (called AVC-A1 outside the US). Used with the 2-ch and 3-ch POA amps that were out at the time.

Denon is certainly no stranger to mega-buck products, but they are a mass market vendor, at least in the US, these days. And mass market buys receivers, not pre/pros. As for price if it did come out? Well, what's Marantz got out there?

Johnla

01-31-05, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by oldschool4life
Price???

At the last rumor when a price was mentioned, it was like $8000+.
Yes even more than what a 5805 cost. Because just about every time it's been talked about, it's also been talked as being strictly a very high end product only. So I myself would not get my hopes up about them coming out with something like a $2000-$3000 pre-pro.

Johnla

01-31-05, 12:54 AM

Originally posted by MStanic
I know receivers will always sell more but there's also an exclusive crowd of PREAMP enthusiasts. Don't they want a piece of this pie?

It's simple actually, what looks like a good opportunity to you probably don't look so good to them. And they don't think that the available pieces of the pie are big enough to make it worthwhile, and they are probably right. And if more did offer them, then the pieces would be even smaller yet. Their bread and butter, will always be in the receivers that are $1000 and under. So to many of them, something a higher end pre-pro will probably always look like a minor limited sales niche market item. And about the only expetion to that line of thinking, has been Integra Research and also recently on a more limited scale Sherwood.
But if you also look at all the $500 to $1500+ receivers that are being used as only a low to midrange cost pre-pro, then maybe in a sense they also figure that they already got that lower to midrange pre-pro market well covered the way it is, and with no extra manufacturing cost at all for them.....

Elbert

01-31-05, 01:18 AM

Jeff indicated to me that 5805 swallowed up the separates that weere shown last year. A 5805-basesd $5k+- pre/pro with balanced pre outs, perhaps some additional copper shielding, etc, will be announced around Cedia.

oldschool4life

01-31-05, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by MStanic
I know receivers will always sell more but there's also an exlcusive crowd of PREAMP enthusiasts. Don't they want a piece of this pie?

x 2

I wish Denon would make a stereo pre-amp (that matches their tuner); have it comparable to Parasound's Classic series (price, performance, etc...) and I'll buy one.

MStanic

01-31-05, 06:41 AM

Elbert,

Are you saying then that Denon will introduce a PREAMP version of the 5805 based on your conversation with Jeff? If so, do you think it will be out by the end of 2005?

SteveH

01-31-05, 08:51 AM

I would not want to take on the 5000 pound gorilla known as Denon in a prepro market if they came out with a cost effective solution with balanced out. They have the resources and volume to come out with "economical" high er-end seperates.

As the Tweeters of the world pair down their brands , Denon will be "forced" to enter into the speciality seperates market.... If I was in their shoes, I'd do it as fast as possible.

dsmith901

01-31-05, 09:07 AM

The "high end" in audio, the folks that gravitate to pricey separates in HT, are very brand concious and want a name with cache (Krell, Theta, EAD, Lexicon, Classe, etc.) and Denon aint got none of that, at least not in the US. Of course they could invent a separate line with a different name, as did Onkyo. Personally, I would rather Harmon revive the old Citation line, as long as they maintain its quality.

Johnla

01-31-05, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Elbert
Jeff indicated to me that 5805 swallowed up the separates that weere shown last year.

Just by it's sheer size and weight, that almost looks to be true....

Elbert

02-02-05, 07:11 PM

Yes- Jeff indicated that the 5805's feature's alone made the high end separates shown at 2004 CES no longer a compelling product, so they were scrapped.
There is going to be a new pre/pro based on the 5805 that should be released at teh end of the year - smaller chasis, balanced outputs and probably better shielding.
Elbert

jheoaustin

02-02-05, 09:00 PM

Elbert,

Could you identify the source of information? Is it from Jeff@Denon?

whoaru99

02-02-05, 09:44 PM

Most of these companies, Yamaha, Marantz, Denon, Sony, etc. offered a pre/pro or some type of outboard processor at one time or another. If they thought (or more likely, if the actuals matched the projections) they'd have either stayed in the game or would already be back in.

I certainly do not have an MBA, but I'm close enough to that sort of thing where I work to know that if there is not enough volume and margin to make a good ROI, then the project gets nixed unless someone way, way up high has taken a special interest in the product.

MStanic

02-02-05, 09:56 PM

Elbert,

You're basically saying then that Denon WILL release a pre/pro by the end of the year.

If someone from Denon is reading this, can you please confirm this.

theranman

02-02-05, 10:04 PM

I'm not from Denon, but a dealer who attended CES said that Denon was coming out with 2 prepros based on the 5805 and 4806 respectively...good news indeed. :)

Johnla

02-02-05, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by theranman
I'm not from Denon, but a dealer who attended CES said that Denon was coming out with 2 prepros based on the 5805 and 4806 respectively...good news indeed.

Yeah, but until they are actually out and available for sale, it's still more or less just another rumor that may or may not ever end up being a actual product. Because this is not the first time they have said something like that.

xswl0931

02-03-05, 12:38 AM

http://www.audioholics.com/ces/ces2004/CES_2004_day1d.html

Scroll to the bottom.

dsmith901

02-03-05, 08:25 AM

The AV processor is not very pretty, but its performance that counts. Note the last comment that these were just mock-up shells, not actual working units. The best thing about this is it will hopefully bring out more competition.

Johnla

02-03-05, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by xswl0931
http://www.audioholics.com/ces/ces2004/CES_2004_day1d.html

Scroll to the bottom.

Yes do scroll to the bottom...

"Just to point out how far away these models are from production, several of these units are just shells with mockup displays."

And that was from the 2004 CES, a year ago.

So again, until it's a real actual product and is actually offered for sale to the public, it's really not much more than a rumor/vaporware.

theranman

02-03-05, 11:52 AM

If it's being told to their dealers, I think there's a bit more credibility to it than pure rumor.

Johnla

02-03-05, 04:43 PM

If it's not a selling product, that you can actually buy. Then it really is not much more than just a rumor, no matter who they are telling it to, dealers or not. They were telling people almost these exact same sort of things about a pre-pro/seperates product line nearly a year ago, and there is still yet to be any such things sold as a result of that.

Elbert

02-03-05, 07:02 PM

yes, Jeff T

MStanic

02-03-05, 09:15 PM

Now is the time for a big player to release a PRE/PRO. HT is more popular than ever now and there is definitely a target crowd out there. With the marketing power, money and quality that Denon puts into their flagship units they have definitely positioned themselves to deliver a knockout punch by unveiling a PRE/PRO. It will definitely be the KING of the RING. Pioneer is the only other big player that I can see doing something to rival Denon in this territory. Everyone else follows the standard set by these two heavyweights........and I mean everyone......including the more expensive players out there now.

All I can say is let's go Denon and let's go Pioneer. It's time.

xswl0931

02-04-05, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by Johnla
If it's not a selling product, that you can actually buy. Then it really is not much more than just a rumor, no matter who they are telling it to, dealers or not. They were telling people almost these exact same sort of things about a pre-pro/seperates product line nearly a year ago, and there is still yet to be any such things sold as a result of that.

I think you're confusing "rumor" and "vaporware". Denon has shown (even if prototypes) that they are working on seperates. This is no longer a rumor. It is vaporware until it comes out.

Johnla

02-04-05, 02:19 AM

And a empty "box" mock up with nothing inside of it, can hardly be called a prototype. The point is, they have been saying it for over a year now, and until there is a actual product for sale to the buying public, it really means nothing.

El Pollo

02-04-05, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by MStanic
Now is the time for a big player to release a PRE/PRO. HT is more popular than ever now and there is definitely a target crowd out there.

I agree. It's a totally different world out there now than when the Yamahas and Denons last released pre/pros. DVDs fed more interest in multichannel sound and widescreen HD sets.

Pre/pros might not be any more in the minds of people now than in the past, but there is a much larger pool of people (HT curious / newbies) to draw from than ever before. It just takes someone with bigger name recognition than the B&Ks or Sherwoods to market quality pre/pros and the common-man interest level may explode.

xswl0931

02-05-05, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Johnla
And a empty "box" mock up with nothing inside of it, can hardly be called a prototype. The point is, they have been saying it for over a year now, and until there is a actual product for sale to the buying public, it really means nothing.

I don't work for Denon and the Denon 2600 I have I regret getting, but I am interested in their high end seperates given the rave reviews of their high end receivers. However, calling it an "empty box" is certainly not true.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20040110/10.jpg

moonhawk

02-05-05, 12:24 AM

(Slap!)......:D

Johnla

02-05-05, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by xswl0931
However, calling it an "empty box" is certainly not true.

Do you see one sitting at your local dealer that you can demo and buy yet?

Like it says at the bottom of this page... http://www.audioholics.com/ces/ces2004/CES_2004_day1d.html

"Just to point out how far away these models are from production, several of these units are just shells with mockup displays."

SteveH

02-05-05, 07:47 AM

JohnLa's point has some validity. A lot of projects are floated to see what the interest level is. There are a lot of empty boxes at shows as well. Not in this case (pun intended).
What was on Audioholic's 2004 coverage showed EXTREMELY expensive flagship products. It would be my guess that Denon got some feedback from their reps and dealers that they might have difficulty selling $18K processors (forgot the exact amount) from Denon.:) I am a Denon dealer and you could mark me down for zero $18K processors in one year and I sell very high end brands.

On the other hand IF they came out with a separates package with a 4806 and or 5805 with balanced out, they can mark me down for 150+ a year.:)
When Marantz came out with their AV-500 and 550 they sold them for below a grand and they sounded good but not GREAT. In other words, they did not have enough volume at enough GP to stay in the market and the higher end public did not respect their sound quality.
With the Marantz, the public got separates but not great sound (IMHO of course). In general, f you don't get better sound why bother with separates?? In the case of the Denon, it is a feature rich product that sounds very good. I would expect that they would do a lot of damage to upscale brands ($10K and less processors) assuming it sounded fantastic and I have no reason to question their ability to produce great sounding gear. I also assume it will not be upgradeable which many brands will still have an edge.
So it looks like the market wants this sort of product and the design is basically done. It also looks as though Jeff at Denon mentioned that it was coming to some other people... I'd say it makes a wee-bit more sense than offering the $18K flagship products IMHO.

Ricky

02-05-05, 08:25 AM

I agree with Johnla's points, the economics don't support Denon going with expensive separates:
- they would have to create R&D, production, marketing, distribution (to thousands of stores, boutique brands distribute to significantly less dealers/stores), repair, etc...in a repeating cycle for the prepro, as well as 3-5 amp models.
- sales would cannabalize the 4000/5000 series receivers (which already have superb recognition with customers and dealers)
- these receivers also have an understood 18-24 month cycle for the "next model", which usually has new features....so the prepro line would have to keep up, otherwise the feature sets could lag and lose sales to the Denon receivers...or vice versa.
- sales volume on the separates could have some "cap" since the audiophiles may still pick the boutique brands over the Denon brand....as the overall sound quality is essentially the same as in the receivers (ie, if the 5805 retails at 6k, why would someone pay alot more for the prepro version with essentially the same innards).
- in all, not a great business model...considering the cannabalism, additional cost/work, and inventory obsolescence risk throught the chain.

moonhawk

02-05-05, 09:16 AM

Yeah, my previous post aside, Johnla is probably right...I'll believe it when I see it.

That said, I'd love to see a 5805, 4806 based pre-pro, AND a transport-only player based on 5910.

But there's no reason those units should cost MORE than the package units they're based on...unless they have "modded" type upgrade components.

And even then, if built at the factory, the cost isn't as great as a mod, and when you eliminate all the amps in the receivers, and the DACs in the players, these units should be priced "reasonably".

But the question remains...would the economy of scale justify it for companies like Denon...i.e. will they sell enough units to bother, or to be able to keep the cost down?

With a severe upgrade itch right now, and not being the type who can afford semi-annual upgrades, I'm having a hard time deciding what to do with all the new formats coming out.

theranman

02-05-05, 09:43 AM

I suspect that if any pre-pro Denon comes out with is NOT upgradable, that's gonna keep a lid on sales...depending upon price point, of course. If it's cheap enough, folks won't care.

Example? If the 4806 will list at $3500, I would guesstimate that a 4806-based pre-pro might list at what...$2500-2700?
If the street price is $1800-2000 or so, I don't think people will bitch too much if it's not upgradable. If it's more than that, I think it'll hold back sales.

If a 5805-based pre-pro listed at around $4000-4500(big guesses), it's street price might be around $3500 or a bit higher, no? At that price point, you're competing against the cheaper Lexicons, Integra Research, Anthem, etc..which are ALL upgradable if I recall correctly.

My final guess: A 5805-based pre-pro would likely be upgradable and a 4806 pre-pro would not.

Thoughts?

Ran

ps-the above price guesstimates are worth exactly what you've paid for them.

Krobar

02-05-05, 09:57 AM

Ran,

I think your assumption would be correct about only the higher end model being upgradeable. I just got the IR RDC-7.1 but would have given a Pre/pro based on the 5805 very serious consideration if it had been available.

theranman

02-05-05, 10:18 AM

The rich feature set aside, I think the Audyssey MultEQ gig has alot to do with the attraction of the Denons. When another box maker sticks it in a feature rich pre-pro, the playing field will level.

Ran

xswl0931

02-05-05, 03:56 PM

I don't disagree that we should wait and see, hence I used the term vaporware. Which is not a positive term. But to say that they are "fakes" (empty boxes) and rumors is simply false. Is it true that they may never be for sale? Sure. But does that mean we shouldn't talk about it? No.

Johnla

02-05-05, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by xswl0931
But to say that they are "fakes" (empty boxes) and rumors is simply false.

Did you ever notice how a lot of the "prototype" or possible future new products at many of the shows, is also never hooked up to anything and playing anything..... Well a lot of times it's because even though something "looks" like is has working parts inside of it, when in reality it does not. Because they are simply there only for show & tell, and are not even made to be even remotely at all functional. Other than maybe lighting up a "show off" display on the front panel or something. Even though otherwise, they may look like they might be a "real" one.

And the same kind of thing even happens in some car shows. With some of the cars that are in the some of the "trailer" classes. In that some of the cars that look to have a "GREAT" big honking bad a$$ looking engine in them. That in reality, it can not even run. Because they don't even have any internal mechanical parts in them, such as a crankshaft, pistons and connecting rods. Yet from the outside, it still looks like just about any other similar engine. And even ones that look exactly like it on the outside, but that actually can/will run.

theranman

02-05-05, 10:57 PM

Johnla,

It sounds like you've been betrayed by empty promises before. PLEEEZE do not worry, John. Denon is NOT like Santa Claus. :D

Ran

Kevin C Brown

02-06-05, 02:56 AM

But they are. Separates pre/pros by them were "officially" announced over 2 years ago. And still no actual product. Even back then, the word was: one really expensive one, and one cheaper one. Time will tell. ;)

SteveH

02-06-05, 07:01 AM

Time will tell but Denon needs to produce a product to keep out others in the separates arena from going into the volume accounts like Tweeter. B&K and Tweeter are parting ways and this opened the door for more skews that will be filled by someone. Ranman is very correct that likes of others could include HDMI, great EQ, etc in a $2500 unit WOULD level the playing field. Especially the factory direct companies if they could get there volume up to support the extremely expensive upgrade R&D costs.
Japanese vendors have traditionally dodged separates because for whatever reason, the perception of Japanese analog amps have not been well received (hence the combo's don't sell). Now with digital amps I think they could go a long way in penetrating the US market.
So my official prediction is CEDIA 2005 Denon will announce these products. Considering their history of announcing and changing their mind, it is very possible it may not come true. I will be willing to take some side bets both of my predictions will come true.:)

MStanic

02-06-05, 07:04 AM

The 5805 should have been a PRE/PRO. Then, perhaps, they could have kept the heigh of it to a normal level. Why squeeze 10 channels of amplification into it? Why are they so hell bent at keeping everything as a receiver? The height of that box is just ridiculous. I know some that own the 5805 have said that it's not that bad, the height that is, but it's still unusually tall nonetheless.