Is there an affordable preamp/processor?

[NEC baby]

I currently own an "old" Arcam AV50 5.1 receiver that I like very much. However it only has a Dolby Pro Logic processor in it.

I don't really want to get rid of this receiver because I think I would probably need to spend something like $1500-2000 to get an equivalent like the new AVR250 or AVR300.

I've checked a bit but it doesn't look like there exists a "cheap" pream/processor that would give me DTS processing other than buying a complete receiver. Sure there is tha Anthem at $3000 but that's not in my range!

Anyone knows of such a thing, let's say in the $500-1000?

Thanks.

[wakewatcher]

www.outlawaudio.com (http://www.outlawaudio.com)

[NEC baby]

wow, thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for, do you own one or someone you know? any reviews or reference? seems like you can buy directly from them...

[mjosef]

On their website they have links to reviews in a few mags.

[F355]

I'm assuming it has 5.1 pre amp inputs?
why not buy a universal dvd player like the marantz 6500 and/or above.... like the denon 2900?
hope this helps

also, there's the emotiva ultra lite from av123 that seems like an interesting product.

[JBJR]

Did you look at the Sherwood P-965?

[NEC baby]

Thanks guys, lots of reply that is nice...

mjosef and wakewatcher, this outlaw product is really interesting. I saw all the reviews and comments on their website. It is impressive. Since it's a 2002 product, I really wonder how it compares to a 2005 receiver in pure sound quality, to let's say something like the Cambridge Azur 540R or the Arcam AVR250... any idea?

F355, yes my Arcam AV50 has 5.1 input and that is exactly my goal, I want to use it only as a 5.1 amplifier. I have a "universal" DVD (Cambridge 540D), I really like it's audio quality but it does not do DTS and I was not willing to spend the money for a high end player. I still need a DD/DTS decoder and/or receiver for my cable TV and xbox... I looked at the emotiva but this is a $3000 box!!! too much for me...

JBJR, the Sherwood is interesting. I'll have to do more research on it. It seems a bit more expensive than the Outlaw above but maybe it's much better. Have you ever compared it to any others or to a receiver in that price range?

Thanks again guys, I appreciate your feedback.

[mjosef]

I am not familiar with the Cambridge or Acram...but I heard the 950 and can tell you it not larking in sound quality, its just a little short on features by today standards. Their next effort should be something else.
Oh I did see a 950 selling over at audiocircle for 420$...mhnnnn...tempting...

[Bondmanp]

I second the Sherwood P-965, and also check out the Emotiva, the new entry-level pre-pro, at av123.com.

[Legairre]

NEC, you have a pm.

[dgeorgatos]

Add another recommendation for the Sherwood Newcastle P-965. I just upgraded to it from and Outlaw 950 and have been very happy with it. Definitely a worthy upgrade over the 950.

[Harmon]

FYI - The Emotiva pre/pro being referred to here is not the $2,999 DMC-1, but the yet to be released LMC-1 which will sell for $699. Should be out in March. Specs can be found near the bottom of this page under "Emotiva Ultra Lite - Updated":

http://www.av123.com/about_news.php

I've (hopefully) attached a couple of pics.

[Harmon]

OK, let me try again with the pic thing.

[Harmon]

. . . and one more with the matching amp.

[F355]

thanks harmon, I was too lazy/busy at work :) to search and paste links.
the emo ultra lite will most probably be a sweet pre-pro.

[Harmon]

Originally posted by F355
thanks harmon, I was too lazy/busy at work :) to search and paste links.
the emo ultra lite will most probably be a sweet pre-pro.

Sure, no problem. I'm on the pre-order list so I'm hoping that it will be sweet. ;) Sure looks cool, huh?

There's really not any comparably priced pre/pros other than the Outlaw 950. Should be interesting to see and hear the comparisions of those two.

[DMF]

You will pry my 950 from my cold dead fingers.

Given the contents of the nearby discussion on PLIIx, I don't miss the lack of that process - Cirrus CSS does essentially the same thing. And that's the major "modern" feature missing from the 950.

[NEC baby]

Hum, this emotive ultra light at $699 is indeed interesting.

Anyone know what they mean by this:

2 x 25 watt internal zone two power amplifier with binding post speaker terminals

Is it a 2 channel amp incorporated in the pre-amp/processor box so that people who own only a 5.1 amp can use this 2 channel amp to now have a 7.1 setup?

Also, any date on it's release?

Thanks.

[sdurani]

Originally posted by DMF
Given the contents of the nearby discussion on PLIIx, I don't miss the lack of that process - Cirrus CSS does essentially the same thing.No it doesn't. Cirrus Extra Surround is a summing circuit that converts 2 surround channels into 3. No stereo rears, like PLIIx. In fact, to apply CES to 2-channel material you have to use other processing to first get the 2 surround channels. PLIIx avoids cascading 2 processes. And that's the major "modern" feature missing from the 950. That, and some form of intelligent room correction/EQ.

Best,
Sanjay

[Harmon]

Originally posted by NEC baby
Hum, this emotive ultra light at $699 is indeed interesting.

Anyone know what they mean by this:

2 x 25 watt internal zone two power amplifier with binding post speaker terminals

Is it a 2 channel amp incorporated in the pre-amp/processor box so that people who own only a 5.1 amp can use this 2 channel amp to now have a 7.1 setup?

Also, any date on it's release?

Thanks.

Its intended use is to power a second zone such as outdoor speakers or speakers in another room. Not sure if it can be configured like you're talking about.

Last word on release is still March. If I had to guess, I would say late March. There's already a significant number of pre-orders. I'm not sure how many will be on the first shipment.

[JeffKB]

Better news yet - unless I'm missing something, it looks like the price of the LMC-1 (the pre/pro) is actually $599, not $699. The LPA-1 (the amp) is $699. From the webpage:

"The LMC-1 is a 7.1 Surround Sound Processor/Pre-Amp and the LPA-1 is a configurable 7 channel amplifier. "

"The Emotiva Ultra-Lite combo is due in 2005 at $1298. The units can be purchased seperately...the LMC-1 is $599 and the LPA-1 is $699."

[DMF]

Originally posted by sdurani
No it doesn't. Cirrus Extra Surround is a summing circuit that converts 2 surround channels into 3. No stereo rears, like PLIIx. In fact, to apply CES to 2-channel material you have to use other processing to first get the 2 surround channels. PLIIx avoids cascading 2 processes. That, and some form of intelligent room correction/EQ.
CSS generates the rear channels. PLIIx generates the rear channels. Granted PLIIx does it better, but it's not like you're giving up a major capability by not having it. Not being as sensitive as you to surround effects (is anyone? ;)), I don't miss it.

Nor the room EQ, given what I've seen reported about the nonsense results they can generate.

[lonwolf615]

There's at least as much positive comments on room eq as negative.And there have been a lot of posts finding the 950 lacking in stereo music reproduction...not knocking the 950 but you seem to only accept what you want to hear as truth.Not knocking that either-its a healthy response once you've made a purchase.But for those of us still looking its important to keep an open mind.

[dsmith901]

I think the LMC-1 looks better than the higher price model. Would love to see a review of it. Does it have DPLIIx?

[dsmith901]

So whats the skinny on the Emotive LMC-1? When does it ship?

[NEC baby]

JeffKB, where did you get the prices for the LMC-1 at $599?

Anyone knows if the LMC-1 will have the same chip as the Sherwood P-965. Sherwood says "CS-49400 Crystal Processor" and Emotiva says "Crystal Semiconductor based"... I'm looking for the best quality sound, specially in DST music concerts, DVDA and so on so I guess the processor is THE important thing to check. I heard the new Arcam AVR300 receiver, the sound is really very good and it is also based on the CS-49400 Crystal also... So, am I an idiot to think that the P-965 or the LMC-1 have good probability of meeting my taste?

[JeffKB]

Hi NEC baby - those quotes I listed are from the document/webpage that Harmon referenced earlier in this thread. I think the numbers got confused. The pre/pro looks like it's $599 and the amp $699.

[sdurani]

Originally posted by DMF
CSS generates the rear channels. PLIIx generates the rear channels.CES creates a single rear channel. You can phrase it to minimize differences but it doesn't change the fact that CES is a summing circuit and PLIIx is full blown 7-channel surround processing. You may not miss PLIIx, and that's your perogative, but that doesn't mean CES does essentially the same thing. Nor the room EQ, given what I've seen reported about the nonsense results they can generate. What "nonsense results" are you talking about? Harman/Kardon's EzSet/EQ? Audyssey MultEQ XT? Lexicon? Meridian? Most users have reported good results.

If you had both features and chose not to use them, that would be one thing. But to dismiss options that you don't have is a sour grapes argument.

Best,
Sanjay

[Harmon]

Originally posted by JeffKB
Better news yet - unless I'm missing something, it looks like the price of the LMC-1 (the pre/pro) is actually $599, not $699. The LPA-1 (the amp) is $699. From the webpage:

"The LMC-1 is a 7.1 Surround Sound Processor/Pre-Amp and the LPA-1 is a configurable 7 channel amplifier. "

"The Emotiva Ultra-Lite combo is due in 2005 at $1298. The units can be purchased seperately...the LMC-1 is $599 and the LPA-1 is $699."

That is what it says. The prices used to be reversed with the pre/pro at $699 and the amp at $599. Not sure if there's been a change or that's just a typo. Oh, well. A good deal either way.

[Harmon]

Originally posted by dsmith901
I think the LMC-1 looks better than the higher price model. Would love to see a review of it. Does it have DPLIIx?

1. Me too, but don't say it too loudly they might have to ugly it up a little. :)

2. Since it's not released yet, it will probably be awhile before professional reviews surface.

3. Yes it will have DPLIIx.

[Harmon]

Originally posted by dsmith901
So whats the skinny on the Emotive LMC-1? When does it ship?

Latest word is March. Those pics are from CES. Of course, last minute glitches can always cause a release date to slip.

[Harmon]

Originally posted by NEC baby
JeffKB, where did you get the prices for the LMC-1 at $599?

Anyone knows if the LMC-1 will have the same chip as the Sherwood P-965. Sherwood says "CS-49400 Crystal Processor" and Emotiva says "Crystal Semiconductor based"... I'm looking for the best quality sound, specially in DST music concerts, DVDA and so on so I guess the processor is THE important thing to check. I heard the new Arcam AVR300 receiver, the sound is really very good and it is also based on the CS-49400 Crystal also... So, am I an idiot to think that the P-965 or the LMC-1 have good probability of meeting my taste?

I've heard only good things about the Sherwood gear. I had a chance to hear several different speakers (Rocket 750's and 550's, Ascend 340m's and 170's, Axiom floorstanders, and Onix Ref 1's) hooked up to the Sherwood pre/pro and amp awhile back. Sounded very good. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

The DSP for the LMC-1 has not been announced although Mark did say that he had ordered 5,000 of "Cirrus's best chip set" and then later said that he had changed DSP's and was going to use "a more powerful DSP to handle some new 'chores'".

<Caution wild speculation ahead.> Between those two announcements Cirrus announced the CS49500 line of processors. The top of that line is the dual decoder CS49520 which will allow simultaneous decoding of different digital formats (e.g., Dolby Digital and DTS). ("Dual decoding is an advanced feature that enables new AVRs to support dual zones with content coming from two different sources." -- Cirrus 1/5/05 Press Release.)

Remember the LMC-1's emphasis on dual zone capabilities? If I had to guess, I would bet that the CS49520 will be the DSP used in the LMC-1.

What do I win if I'm right? :)

[NEC baby]

Harmon, as far as I'm concerned you wont win anything because I couldn't care less about 2 zones! hahaha I do appreciate your comments and feedback tough...

I'm closer and closer to pulling the trigger on the Sherwood I think. The LMC-1 price could be worth the wait but I don't like all this uncertainty about it, which chip, 2 zones features, target date,... I think Outlaw is supposed to have a new version of their 950 soon but what will be the price and features... Darn, if Sherwood could have priced theirs around $899!

[Harmon]

Originally posted by NEC baby
Harmon, as far as I'm concerned you wont win anything because I couldn't care less about 2 zones! hahaha I do appreciate your comments and feedback tough...

I'm closer and closer to pulling the trigger on the Sherwood I think. The LMC-1 price could be worth the wait but I don't like all this uncertainty about it, which chip, 2 zones features, target date,... I think Outlaw is supposed to have a new version of their 950 soon but what will be the price and features... Darn, if Sherwood could have priced theirs around $899!

:( Yeah, the second zone's not that important to me either. If the feature is there though, I might find a use for it. Maybe for some bedroom or outdoor speakers. In any event, I think the CS49500 series DSP is supposed to be a better/faster chipset than the CS49400. Of course, it's just my speculation that this is what the Emo UL is using.

Like I said, I don't think you'll be disappointed with the Sherwood. The Sherwoods are well made with quality components and the company is very good about updating firmware and features after the sale. Of course, the Sherwood is more expensive.

I can understand your uncertainty with the Emo UL's. That's true of any unreleased product. If I hadn't come to know the man and company behind them, I might feel the same way.

Outlaw is working on a replacement to the 950, but I think all they've said so far is that it will appear some time in 2005 and will be more expensive than the 950 was when it was introduced.

Good luck!

[cschang]

Harmon(how are you doing? hope all is well in OK!)....just for clarification, what we had in Austin was the receiver version of the P-965...the R-965. Looks and functionally identical to the P-965, but has a 7-channel amp built in.

FWIW, I own a P-965, it is an incredible value, firmware upgradeable, auto-setup, auto-EQ on the way(not something I desire though), the support that Sherwood has put behind it has been top notch.....and to top it all off, it plain sounds great!

[lonwolf615]

Hey,Curtis,how you been?I'm curious on why you don't think auto eq is not a good thing,at least for you?

[Harmon]

Originally posted by cschang
Harmon(how are you doing? hope all is well in OK!)....just for clarification, what we had in Austin was the receiver version of the P-965...the R-965. Looks and functionally identical to the P-965, but has a 7-channel amp built in.

FWIW, I own a P-965, it is an incredible value, firmware upgradeable, auto-setup, auto-EQ on the way(not something I desire though), the support that Sherwood has put behind it has been top notch.....and to top it all off, it plain sounds great!

Oops. I must be getting old. Of course Curtis is right. It was the Sherwood receiver I heard, not the pre/pro and amp combo.

Everything is OK in Oklahoma. I'm up too late trying to do my taxes. Good to hear from you. How are things out west?

BTW, those pics I posted earlier in this thread were taken by Curtis at CES. I got that right, didn't I? Was the Emo UL prototype at CES operational? Did you get a chance to play with it much?

[dsmith901]

Will the LMC-1 have "lip-sync?" If so it does everything I need at a great price; the only question then is how well is it implemented? The 2 x 25W amp built in is an unnecessary expense IMO and a potential source for added noise. Hope it is defeatable when not used. And please tell me it will not have a fan.

[cschang]

Originally posted by Harmon
Oops. I must be getting old. Of course Curtis is right. It was the Sherwood receiver I heard, not the pre/pro and amp combo.

Everything is OK in Oklahoma. I'm up too late trying to do my taxes. Good to hear from you. How are things out west?

BTW, those pics I posted earlier in this thread were taken by Curtis at CES. I got that right, didn't I? Was the Emo UL prototype at CES operational? Did you get a chance to play with it much?
Things are good out here...just busy. You can do my taxes next!

I think they are my pics...not sure...there were a few people that took pictures and posted them.

When I was there, the gang just powered up the Emo UL prototypes and just did a short demo of the interface. As far as I know, they did not hook any speakers up to them.

dsmith...I vaguely remember that the unit will have some form audio delay or "lip-sync" feature.....definitely check into it. I do not think you can shutdown the internal amp.

[Figgie]

i vote for the Integra DTC 9.4 :) I run that and it rox :)

[bubbawilly]

I'll third (or fourth) the SN P-965. At street prices (or 'used'), it fits within your budget range.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1112022658

Still March (or later) on the Emotiva UL. Shouldn't Outlaw have their new prepro by about then as well?

Anyway, as DMF stated I'm one that's not sold on PLIIx yet either. I'm using Neo 6 Music lately for music, and the Outlaw 950 has that. Still, do consider the Sherwood. It is a fine piece.

[F355]

the integra looks sweet, but whats the street price?

[JeffKB]

Originally posted by Harmon
That is what it says. The prices used to be reversed with the pre/pro at $699 and the amp at $599. Not sure if there's been a change or that's just a typo. Oh, well. A good deal either way.
Well, I just checked the website again and it's back to the way you saw it:

"The Emotiva Ultra-Lite combo is due in 2005 at $1198. The units can be purchased seperately...the LMC-1 is $699 and the LPA-1 is $599."

I guess that proves two things:

1.) They're a little confused over in av123.com land
2.) They read this forum :D

At any rate, like you said, a good deal either way. :)

[gatt767]

Why won't you check the NAD T163, I think it will serve your needs quite well.

[Figgie]

Originally posted by F355
the integra looks sweet, but whats the street price?

umm retails for $2000 but the street price is less than that :)

[Harmon]

Originally posted by JeffKB
Well, I just checked the website again and it's back to the way you saw it:

"The Emotiva Ultra-Lite combo is due in 2005 at $1198. The units can be purchased seperately...the LMC-1 is $699 and the LPA-1 is $599."

I guess that proves two things:

1.) They're a little confused over in av123.com land
2.) They read this forum :D

At any rate, like you said, a good deal either way. :)

Actually, I had e-mailed Sean at AV123 about this. He said that was a typo, and he would correct it. Looks like he did.

[jsil]

I'm also looking for a new pre/pro to replace my pioneer elite 36. I'm looking at NAD T-163, Rotel 1068, Sherwood p-965. I have NHT vt 1.2 speakers so which one is a good match for NHT. What about outlaw and Emotiva Ultra Lite new pre/pro coming out later. Thanks:confused:

[NEC baby]

I heard the NAD T-163 tonight and it sounds pretty good. Unfortunately it was in a store so it's difficult to say how it would sound with my NHT speakers but let's say it sure is interesting. I do have a feeling that NAD is a bit like Arcam, more oriented towards sound quality at the expense of features. The Sherwood is tempting but I have yet to find one in a store where I live. I am certainly not going to buy a piece like that without listening to it at least once...

[jsil]

NEC baby which NHT speakers do you have. I'm going to take a look today at rotel 1068.:D

[NEC baby]

jsil, I have NHT a pair of 1.3 main, a pair of 1.1 center and a pair of Mod.1 rear. I also have the first NHT powered sub (2 6.5inch woofers) with NHT MA-1 mono amp... The rest of the kit is an Arcam AV50 receiver and Cambridge Azur 540D DVD player. It's great for music, some people can't believe the sound I get out of that. However I don't have DTS processing and it's starting to get on my nerves!

I'll look for your comments on the Rotel...

Cheers

[jsil]

NEC baby found a local dealer today selling nad t-163 for $1K. I spoke to two different dealers about NAD and both said that it's better with NHT than rotel ???. I'm going to look at it on Sunday. I played with the rotel today very nice pre/pro. The dealer had only B&W speakers hook-up to it hard to tell what it will sound like with NHT.:confused:

[Ricky]

jsil and NEC baby,

Ah....you guys have NHT speakers :)

Features aside (video switching, 5.1 inputs, 2 channel analog bypass)...if both of you are staying with 5.1, receivers in the 1200-2000 retail range should be at the least the equal of budget prepros. Look at the Rotel 1066 and later 1068 prepros---amps were essentially added to the prepros to make sister receivers. If someone thinks that the prepro is more than say...1% better than the prepro "inside" the sister receiver, I think he's smoking some good s%*#!

NEC baby,

DTS is nice, but you will hear a huge improvement if you upgrade your sub to a 10-12inch NHT (lots of models available).

[jsil]

Hi. Ricky

What I'm looking for is sound quality from my pioneer elite to a new pre/pro like NAD, Rotel or others. Maybe I wasting time and should keep my pioneer. I use my system mostly for 70% HT and 30% music. Thanks for your input.

MY system 6.1
Pioneer elite 36 as pre/pro
acurus 200x3
kenwood amp 150x5
nht vt 1.2 towers x 2
nht vs-2a center
nht vs 1.2 satellite x3
velodyne ct 120

:confused:

[Ricky]

jsil,

Nice setup! I helped my buddy from college get a very simiiliar setup three years ago:
nht vt1.2 towers
nht vs2a center
nht superone rears
svs 25-31cs
harman kardon signature 2.1 100x5 amp (drives from 3 and sub)
pioneer elite 24tx 5.1 receiver (drives rears)

I just helped my brother-in-law buy three used vs2a's...he's gonna move his superone x/u mains to the rears...and save his vs1.2 to use as a future rear center. His current receiver is the 5.1 Denon 3802.

Your $1500 retail Elite 36 isrelatively modern (with 6.1 DTS-ES, DD-EX decoding) and wouldn't give anything to the Rotel 1066, Outlaw 950 prepros. If you want DPL2x and the current auto-equalization processing, you can sell the 36tx for ~ 400 on ebay and get a 52tx for ~ 500.

I know a few guys who are happily using Pioneer Elite receivers (52/54/56tx) and onced owned various prepros (Integra 9.4, Anthem AVM20, Aragon Soundstage, Lexicon MC8 to name a few). And they are using the receiver to drive 2-4 rear speakers.

[jsil]

Thanks Ricky for the reply.. :)

[NEC baby]

Ricky, thanks for your comments, I like your "down to earth" style...

I know I could get another sub but you know what, I'm not a big bass fan and I specially don't want my neighbours to start complaining about my home theater...

I'm mostly preoccupied by nice quality sound in music, not much interested in having my seat rock in a movie explosion!

Anyway, I agree with you that getting myself a new receiver in the $1200-2000 range would be perfect for me. I love the Arcam sound for music and the AVR250-300 would be perfect. However, I would like to keep my spending under $1000 and at that price the only receiver I found that is close but not quite as nice as my old Arcam is the Cambridge Azur 540R. For movies and surround music it great but for stereo music I prefer my old Arcam but not by much...

So yes I want to stay in the 5.1 and ideally I would just get a pre-pro to satisfy my DTS need without loosing the nice musical sound I have right now. For now I see my options as Outlaw 950, the new Emotiva Light (when it comes out) and stretching a bit the Newcastle P-965. However, I'm also looking at used stuff in the receiver or pre-pro in case I find something interesting.

Cheers.

[Ricky]

NEC,

There are a few excellent, original retail $3-4k 5.1 prepros that have DTS (but not DPL2) and are in the 800-1200 used range: EAD Ovation (no analog bypass), Proceed AVP (2 channel bypass, no 5.1 inputs), Aragon Soundstage (2 channel bypass and 5.1 inputs), Classe SSP25.

I looked up the Arcam receiver specs. Since you like the sound, you can sell your AVR100 for ~500 and get an AVR200---which has DTS, 5.1 inputs, and DPL2 (for less than 750 used).

On the sub, you can get a NHT SW2P 10inch sub for about 150 bucks and drive it with your MA1 amp. The SW2P does an honest 35hz, noticeably more bass than your sub's 6.5 inch woofers, but not low enough to disturb neighbors. The SW3P is 12" and ~ 250 bucks.

[timrawson]

Another good prepro is Audio Refinement's Pre2DSP. Has prologic 2, dd, dts. You can get it for around 1100-1200 new.

Selling my Citation 5.0 which is excellent. No 5.1 input though. Selling mainly due to synergy with my amps (PM me for more details)

Anyone familar with Theta Casanova's?

[jsil]

Ricky,

BB has the pioneer 1014-tx on sale what do you think about receiver vs my pioneer elite 36.:confused:

[Ricky]

jsil,

$399 for the 1014 is a great price! There's a current thread when someone says the 1014 and the 52tx sound exactly the same when used as a prepro. Since you have outboard amps, that might be a nice move from your 36tx if you want dpl2x and auto eq.

btw, I grew up in Santa Clara (my parents still live there).

[jsil]

Ricky,

btw, my parents also live in Santa Clara at Benton and Scott. I think I give it a try with the pioneer 1014-tx. I like to see what auto eq will do in my room.

[ShagnWagon]

I have not seen any specs for the Eemotiva pre pro and amp. Does anyone know what they are? I'm assuming the amp is 7x100? I'm also interested what features the pre pro has? This might be the combo I go with over the Outlaw...

[Jake Sm]

if both of you are staying with 5.1, receivers in the 1200-2000 retail range should be at the least the equal of budget prepros

A well built pre-pro from the likes of Rotel, in my experiance and OPINION sounds cleaner and more musical (subjectively) than any ordinary receiver with a low cost , afterthought design, preo-out section.
I have talked to many who have made this upgrade to a quality , albiet budget, pre-pro from a receiver that they used previously in that capacity, and they were very pleased....again these are OPINIONS and I'm sure the people who are using receivers NOW in that capacity will disagree....With receivers , though, you get more features at the price point, regardless of the fact that they put all those extra features and amps in a box that costs the same or less....but I'm sure people will tell you they sound the same.