View Full Version : HDMI.....Am I CONFUSED or what....need answers???
MStanic
02-08-05, 01:19 PM
Too much of this acronym lately has everyone buzzing and, quite frankly, I'm somewhat (if not totally) CONFUSED. Here I go.....
HDMI....Superior way to connect your TV if it has an HDMI connection. Therefore, if your receiver/prepro has HDMI you would want to connect it in this manner. Is this statement true? I suspect YES and this one is easy.
HDMI.....also carries audio signals. Therefore, if my TV is currently connected via HDMI and back to my receiver/prepro then does this mean that all of my sources need to connect to the receiver via HDMI....or....will the RCA, TOS or COAX connections also upconvert audio via HDMI much like video is upconverted?
How do I-LINK and/or DVI effect HDMI?
Will HDMI be the predominant protocol for audio/video? Video I believe is already there but what about Audio?
HDMI 1.1 vs HDMI 1.2.......is the latter able to carry DD 5.1 whereas the former can only do DD 2.0?
I'm confused about HDMI and how it works, how it connects when it comes to audio and video combined and what it's really going to do for us above and beyond I-LINK for audio? What about DVI?
DVD-A, SACD & HDMI.....does HDMI play them?
What's a RECEIVER/PREPRO going to sport in a year or two. Will it only have HDMI connections with no video/audio connections as we currently have now in the back of our units?
Maybe I should read more for the answers so I apologize for asking. Just direct me to some answers and maybe I can understand this better.
Thanks ALL!!!
MStanic
02-08-05, 01:21 PM
How many HDMI connections do we want to have? There's the main one that will go back to your TV from your RECEIVER/PREPRO. Is there then an HDMI connection now that will be included for every audio out to every audio in (HDMI IN) on the back of the RECEIVER/PREPRO for each source component? For example, a DVD source has RCA, TOS, and COAX on the back of the RECEIVER/PREPRO.....will there be an HDMI one as well?
jcpzero
02-08-05, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by MStanic
HDMI 1.1 vs HDMI 1.2.......is the latter able to carry DD 5.1 whereas the former can only do DD 2.0?
Maybe someone can step in and confirm this. I thought HDMI 1.1 included DD5.1, and HDMI 1.2 adds DVDaudio.
JCPZero
MStanic
02-08-05, 08:51 PM
HDMI? Guess I need to read about it. I want it for my D1 but I guess I should educate myself on it. Any answers to my confusion are still more than welcome.
jcpzero........you're probably right but what about SACD? Then again, 5805 owners, I think, are playing DVDA with their HDMI 1.1 but not SACD?
Originally posted by jcpzero
Maybe someone can step in and confirm this. I thought HDMI 1.1 included DD5.1, and HDMI 1.2 adds DVDaudio.
I guess it all depends on who or what you want to believe for the info.
Like do you believe in reading things such as this, or not???........
http://news.designtechnica.com/talkback45.html
nethomas
02-08-05, 09:36 PM
My point in a thread above this one is that there are people who are complaining about units not having HDMI who don't even need it , in fact don't even know what it is good for.
NETHOMAS
nethomas
02-08-05, 09:41 PM
By the way MStanic, I don't mean this toward you specifically, hell I don't understand alot about HDMI myself, plus, I don't have a monitor that is HDMI ready.
NETHOMAS
charlie1
02-08-05, 10:26 PM
Check this link.
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/support/dvihdmi.jsp
Brent McCall
02-08-05, 11:19 PM
From Gefen Website
(HDMI)- "extends as far as 500-meters using proper cabling techniques. In most commercial and home theater installations, the consumer electronics components are installed in a closet or basement far from the actual displays. This makes cable length an important feature for consumers and installers."
The only 4 ways to go even over 15 meters at this time.
1. Fat copper (and then its iffy).
2. Cat 5 adaptors (Big Dollars and again iffy)
3. Fiber (Big Dollars).
4. RGB/Time Sync Restorer (Just getting to market).
The last will be the most cost effective for the Home Theater market.
It should take you up to 100' without a problem.
HDMI is multi-channel ready (DD & DTS).
Ver 1.2 adds multi-channel uncompressed audio (SACD & DVD Audio).
By CEDIA there will be a number of receivers & players HDMI enabled.
1st gen units will have 3 HDMI inputs / 1 HDMI output.
You should also see multi source/multi zone matrix switchers by then (will require that all displays & sources be set at same resolution)
Some mis-information on this thread.
1) HDMI has always been 8-channel DVD-A capable. Even the draft
version 0.9 included DVD-A. Check out the product brief for the Silicon Image
HDMI transmitter:
http://www.siimage.com/docs/SI_9030_PB_1217_F2.pdf
Does it not say HDMI 1.0?
2) HDMI 1.1 is just a minor specification update. Has nothing to do with
multi-channel audio at all. Note that on this page, the same Silicon Image
transmitter is now HDMI 1.1
http://www.siimage.com/products/product.aspx?id=15
HDMI 1.1 is such a minor change, Silicon Image didn't even change the
number of the chip or add an "A" suffix.
3) HDMI 1.2 has not been published. Noone (except the HDMI folks) really
knows what will or will not be included in the HDMI 1.2 specification.
4) Entirely independent of the HDMI specification, Silicon Image released two
generations of HDMI transmitter chips. The 1st generation chip only
did 2-channel PCM and IEC61937 (DD and DTS).
http://www.siimage.com/docs/SiI-PB-9190.pdf
Ron
Also, some real world data points instead of spec sheets and journalistic publications...
DVR: Scientific Atlanta 8300HD (HDMI 1.0 out)
Receiver: Panasonic SA-XR70 (HDMI 1.1 in, 1.0 out)
TV: Hitachi 50V500 (DVI + HDCP)
If I connect the DVR to the Receiver via HDMI: I get DD5.1 audio if the channel is broadcasting it.
If I connect the DVR to the TV via HDMI-DVI cable: I get HDTV video.
If I connect the DVR to the Receiver, and the Receiver to the TV: No audio. No video. HDCP lockout.
That's what I love about standards. They're so incompatible.
MStanic
02-09-05, 11:33 AM
HDMI.......not even a cool acronym and I'm still confused about it. In all fairness, I have not really had an opportunity to read about it yet.
Brent McCall
02-09-05, 12:03 PM
"That's what I love about standards. They're so incompatible."
Welcome to the product manufacturers world.
Even working within "HDMI Work Group Members" there is much speculation and little true facts.
Rumors include:
Ver 1.2 terminals going from 19 to 21 pins (Some say yes, some say no).
Type "B" connectors (29 pins) being used on consumer products in the next few years (to support dual link).
Please Note:
While Early versions spec'ed DVD/A & SACD to "my knowledge" (possibility wrong) only Pioneer and maybe Denon have enabled it.
I do not think these products are shipping (maybe by CEDIA).
It is no better at our end.
BruceOmega
02-09-05, 12:11 PM
I was in a DoD R&D meeting many years and heard one of the technology whizzes comment that "a standard is anything that is shipping in quantity".
I've been trying to figure out why I would need an HDMI output from a receiver. I have HDMI in/out on the TV tuner and DVD, why would I need or want the same on the receiver?
moonhawk
02-12-05, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by md1953
I've been trying to figure out why I would need an HDMI output from a receiver. I have HDMI in/out on the TV tuner and DVD, why would I need or want the same on the receiver?
Agreed...
Why would anyone with a high(er) end system need to send audio to the display.
DVI shoud do the trick for that.
The ideal would be HDMI between the receiver and all source components, DVI between the receiver and display.
Of course, there's no real harm in using HDMI, if that's what's available, it's just carrying unnecessary info.
MStanic
02-12-05, 10:07 AM
Wow....this seems to be all over the place......at least in my head anyways.
I thought HDMI was primarily for video thus replacing COMPONENT and DVI?? I'm not sure how it works when it comes to audio however??
The picture is not clear whatsoever in my mind. In the end, are we just going to have HDMI connections as the superior format thus negating RCA AUDIO, TOS, COAX, I-LINK, DVI, COMPOSITE, S-VIDEO and COMPONENT??
[COLOR=White]HDMI....Superior way to connect your TV[/COLOR]
Yes, I would agree. It's digital and lossless, it's one cable, and the HDCP opens you up to watching HD content that studio's would normally not allow us to have.
[COLOR=White]HDMI.....also carries audio signals...will the RCA, TOS or COAX connections also upconvert audio via HDMI much like video is upconverted?[/COLOR]
RCA (analog) is lossy, and requires many cables (6 for DD5.1)
TOS/COAX (SPDIF) is max'ed out with compressed digital formats like DD & DTS. It doesn't have the bandwidth to do DVD-Audio or SACD (nor the copy protection).
HDMI is lossless, a single cable, and has bandwidth to do 8 channels @ 192kHz or more.
[COLOR=White]How do I-LINK and/or DVI effect HDMI?[/COLOR]
1394 is lower bandwidth, so suitable for sending compressed video. 1394 requires the receiving device to have a decoder (like MPEG2). Also, 1394 can carry multiple formats (ex. DV or MPEG2), so no guarantee devices will work if the receiving device doesn't have the right decoder.
DVI is video-only predecessor to HDMI made for PC monitors with a huge connector, and lacks any compliance, so your mileage will vary on how well it works.
HDMI evolves DVI by adding digital audio, a required compliance program with sanctioned test centers, and is uncompressed so you never have to pay for a decoder or worry about your TV being obsolete in the future.
[COLOR=White]Will HDMI be the predominant protocol for audio/video? Video I believe is already there but what about Audio?[/COLOR]
Maybe for audio, if high bandwidth audio formats (like DVD-Audio & SACD) become predominant. This is because the old school audio interfaces (analog & SPDIF) don't have the bandwidth or content protection needed for high quality digitla audio. Note that HDMI currently can't transmit audio only- it needs video to be sent, although with an HDMI AV receiver, you could just leave your TV off and that would work just like an audio only mode.
[COLOR=White]HDMI 1.1 vs HDMI 1.2.......is the latter able to carry DD 5.1 whereas the former can only do DD 2.0?[/COLOR]
HDMI 1.0 (Dec 2002) supported all the compressed formats like DD & DTS that are supported on SPDIF (Toslink/Coax).
HDMI 1.1 (May 2004) added support for DVD-Audio.
HDMI 1.2 (Aug 2005) added support for SACD, and made some changes to make it easier for PCs to use HDMI.
Support for DD was never taken away, they just added more formats with each spec.
[COLOR=White]DVD-A, SACD & HDMI.....does HDMI play them?[/COLOR]
Yes. DVD-A is available with HDMI 1.1 or later devices. SACD is available with HDMI 1.2 devices. Make sure you read product specs to see if it actually implements support for those formats. An HDMI 1.2 product doesn't have to support either of these formats, it's ultimately a product implementation option.
wtr_wkr
11-11-05, 01:33 PM
I read all the stuff here re HDMI rev 1.x and 1080P to be positioned for HD-DVD/BR. Here's what I've found:
(1) for PCs, use DVI or wait for HDMI 1.3. (you want 1:1 pixel mapping)
(2) For 1080p via HDMI, wait for HDMI 1.3.
(3) For HD-DVD/BR via HDMI, wait for HDMI 1.3.
(3) If you want 7.1 audio, use coax/optical (forget about HDMI <1.3)
(4) in HDMI's future, HD-Audio will be available for todays multi-channel analog inputs (BUT no processing is likely with current receivers (no 7.1))
(5) If you want good 1080p, you need the next generation of Video Processors. (Stuff better than Faraoudja is starting to show in products.)
(6) What's audio via HDMI good for? Listening to news without turning on your receiver.
(7) HDMI <1.3 is crap (not as good as DVI and the audio is almost useless (see (6.))
(8) Current HDMI/DVI HDCP will not work for HD-DVD/BR. (This is a guess.)
(9) HDCP is an absolute must have (You want HD and should upscale DVDs.), but just for video.
(10) You need to connect STB and DVD to the HDTV via HDMI, but if you try to switch it through the receiver, the HDCP may not work.
(11) Trying to buy stuff today to be compatible with stuff I buy tomorrow is a joke (except I'm not lauphing. I have 7.1 speakers but no receiver.)
Bottom line - (Here's where I should suggest HT in a box(a joke.)) Today's HDTV via HDMI or DVI with HDCP works for video. Use coax/optical for audio and get 7.1. For HD-DVD/BR & HD audio, wait >year+++. If you have to have HDMI in a receiver, get at least 1.1. Avoid Sony's CDs, they put a DRM virus in your PC. Avoid Sony.
[QUOTE=wtr_wkr]
(7) HDMI <1.3 is crap (not as good as DVI and the audio is almost useless (see (6.))
[/QUOTE]
That's just BS. Even the current versions of HDMI is backward compatible with DVI. So there is no way that DVI is any better than HDMI 1.1 is.
[QUOTE=jlee92][COLOR=White]HDMI....Superior way to connect your TV[/COLOR]
Yes, I would agree. It's digital and lossless, it's one cable, and the HDCP opens you up to watching HD content that studio's would normally not allow us to have.
[COLOR=White]HDMI.....also carries audio signals...will the RCA, TOS or COAX connections also upconvert audio via HDMI much like video is upconverted?[/COLOR]
RCA (analog) is lossy, and requires many cables (6 for DD5.1)
TOS/COAX (SPDIF) is max'ed out with compressed digital formats like DD & DTS. It doesn't have the bandwidth to do DVD-Audio or SACD (nor the copy protection).
HDMI is lossless, a single cable, and has bandwidth to do 8 channels @ 192kHz or more.
[COLOR=White]How do I-LINK and/or DVI effect HDMI?[/COLOR]
1394 is lower bandwidth, so suitable for sending compressed video. 1394 requires the receiving device to have a decoder (like MPEG2). Also, 1394 can carry multiple formats (ex. DV or MPEG2), so no guarantee devices will work if the receiving device doesn't have the right decoder.
DVI is video-only predecessor to HDMI made for PC monitors with a huge connector, and lacks any compliance, so your mileage will vary on how well it works.
HDMI evolves DVI by adding digital audio, a required compliance program with sanctioned test centers, and is uncompressed so you never have to pay for a decoder or worry about your TV being obsolete in the future.
[COLOR=White]Will HDMI be the predominant protocol for audio/video? Video I believe is already there but what about Audio?[/COLOR]
Maybe for audio, if high bandwidth audio formats (like DVD-Audio & SACD) become predominant. This is because the old school audio interfaces (analog & SPDIF) don't have the bandwidth or content protection needed for high quality digitla audio. Note that HDMI currently can't transmit audio only- it needs video to be sent, although with an HDMI AV receiver, you could just leave your TV off and that would work just like an audio only mode.
[COLOR=White]HDMI 1.1 vs HDMI 1.2.......is the latter able to carry DD 5.1 whereas the former can only do DD 2.0?[/COLOR]
HDMI 1.0 (Dec 2002) supported all the compressed formats like DD & DTS that are supported on SPDIF (Toslink/Coax).
HDMI 1.1 (May 2004) added support for DVD-Audio.
HDMI 1.2 (Aug 2005) added support for SACD, and made some changes to make it easier for PCs to use HDMI.
Support for DD was never taken away, they just added more formats with each spec.
[COLOR=White]DVD-A, SACD & HDMI.....does HDMI play them?[/COLOR]
Yes. DVD-A is available with HDMI 1.1 or later devices. SACD is available with HDMI 1.2 devices. Make sure you read product specs to see if it actually implements support for those formats. An HDMI 1.2 product doesn't have to support either of these formats, it's ultimately a product implementation option.[/QUOTE]
1) DVI works, HDMI has many examples of cases in which it does not. So all of those claims of testing and complaints and standards are just marketing. And speaking from a marketing standpoint, DVD-A and SACD are already failures.
2) as for posting things with white text, the default color theme on this website is absolutely horrible, and i'm willing to be i'm not the only one who's using the white theme instead ;).
3) and along the same line as posting things in white text, if anyone wanted a marketing brochure for HDMI they could google for one, they don't need you here fighting the good fight by bumping 7 month old threads...
[QUOTE=Xayd]1) DVI works, HDMI has many examples of cases in which it does not. [/QUOTE]
Wrong, DVI is really no better than HDMI is! And it in fact, has many of the same problems/issues with HDCP.
http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/PrintArticle.aspx?ArticleID=8498
wtr_wkr
11-12-05, 11:58 AM
DVI vs HDMI, go read what the HTPC users think of HDMI. They get all the video resolutions they want with DVI. Getting 1:1 pixel mapping with HDMI is often a problem. Future HDMI will have a bandwidth advantage over DVI. Currently, audio is the only benefit HDMI has over DVI and which receivers do you suggest using the HDMI audio for?
Short answer: HDMI is very much a work in progress. It may work for you, it may not. YMMV.
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread..
HDMI 1.1 will do multi-channel audio for Dolby Digital, DTS and DVD-Audio but not SACD..
HDMI 1.2 introduced recently, addresses SACD but with HD DVD & Blu Ray rite around the corner it is kinda of academic and with Dolby + and DTS HD coming as well. Especially in lite of recent moves by Sony done in Japan by decreasing their emphasis for SACD..
Regarding HDMI, DVI and video..
Think about DVI for the PCs and HDMI for CE entertainment components, and since CE entertainment components (AVRs, DVDs) are mainly for movie and music playback, the studios insisted on some type of content protection..
Now enters HDCP and HDMI..
HDMI includes an encryption key that dynamically communicates back and forth between the source component and playback component, if something doesn't match the content is blocked...
Additionally.. HDMI includes 2 other important elements..
1. Each HDMI component polls other HDMI components and then they auto configure themselves for the best playback setup based on their respective capabilities..
2. HDMI also includes a data packet of info for component control, this to date is not being used..
HDMI is still in its early stage and when used with later components things work fairly well, problems set in when mixing early and later HDMI components. But this process is no different of what Windows, PCs and Bill Gates went through for Plug and Play and USB....
Hope this helps clear up some of the confusion.. ;)
Warpdrv
11-12-05, 04:35 PM
So as far as getting a AV reciever that supposedly handles HDMI in and out to TV....
Will this work, or is it just going to be a trial and error thing...
I ask as I just bought a 42-8UK Plasma [Not delivered yet] with a HDMI in and would like to hook up to something like a Yamaha VX-1600 to handle the HR10-250 and component In from DVD player or Component from XBOX.... without running a crap load of wires...
Simple thought right...? hhehhehe
Thanks
Warp
****EDIT***** found this other thread... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=601996
answers many questions... :)
[QUOTE=wtr_wkr]DVI vs HDMI, go read what the HTPC users think of HDMI. They get all the video resolutions they want with DVI. Getting 1:1 pixel mapping with HDMI is often a problem. [/QUOTE]
No matter if you like it or not, HTPC's are really only a limited niche market. And that both the average Joe Sixpac, and much of the AV industry as a whole, does not really care whole lot about HTPC's, or if they can or can not do 1:1 pixel mapping via one type of output or another. In fact, it's fairly obvious that both the RIAA and the MPAA would much prefer that there was no use at all, with a PC and and any of their associated products. So if anything, some use of a HTPC could even get a lot worse before it ever gets better.
Sorry, but I see the HTPC and a 1:1 pixel mapping issue, as probably one of the weakest reasons for saying DVI is better than HDMI. It's a very limited thing, that only applies to a very small amount of all the AV consumers. The majority of the consumers want stuff like upconverting DVD players, HD Tivos or other DVR's, HD satellite or cable boxes, and they want a way to be able to switch between them all. And they really as a whole, are not at all that interested in playing around with the setup of a HTPC to take the place of any of those above items. Which are for the most part, are things where you just take it out of the box, plug it in, and then simply hit the on button and then let it play.
[QUOTE=Johnla]No matter if you like it or not, HTPC's are really only a limited niche market. And that both the average Joe Sixpac, and much of the AV industry as a whole, does not really care whole lot about HTPC's...............[/QUOTE]
I for one couldn't care less about Joe Sixpack's viewing habits.
It is also extremely unlikely that Joe Sixpack is going to be reading many threads on the AVS forum either. That doesn't make concerns about HDMI or DVI any less valid.
PC driven companies such as HP, Dell, Microsoft, Intel and many others all fully recognize the next big market expansion/technolgies will be driven by more advanced silicon processors and certain high performance standards...
As the PC business has been largely saturated and though large...
Its return on investment are less compared to the consumer CE catgeories..
And they want to dominate the home theater system in the living room..
Once can already see the efforts of HP, Dell..
Check out their lines of large screen HD video displays of plasma and DLP projectors, with built-in HD tuners..
Microsoft wants in badly even though they have blown billions $ on Ultimate TV, X-Box (now trying a 2nd time).. They dominate the PC side for the OSs..
And business applications but still trying to break into the CE entertainment side.
Intel want to sell chips, their Pentium chips were break-throughs but now AMD is starting to chip away at this.. Intel even bought Oplus for their video processing IP and their chips are now being used by Onkyo and Yamaha in their AVRs..
Another example is the Tivo.. where did this come from..
Thanks to the PC and hard disk..
The next 2-5 years will have multiple technology breakthroughs as the penetration for HD expands many of these showing up first in PCs..
However the PC categories tend to be global and less restrictive for content protection..
But...
The studio content providers want certain protection schemes and they are insisting on these digital right management schemes..
Think about HDCP (used in HDMI) as later updates of macrovision or DVD regions ...
And more will certainly follow..
As in the CE home categories, these factors are more easily controlled on a global basis...
wtr_wkr
11-13-05, 10:49 AM
Granted, a minority of us dual use our display for PC (VGA) and DVD player (DVI)(and soon HDTV). SD's PQ is way too bad for close up viewing. I have a TV for that garbage.
When HD-DVD, 1080p and the next generation of video processors come out, you too may enjoy hi res viewing. You may get a bit closer to the display so that the experience is like a real theater. Joe Sixpack sees the difference between HDTV and a theater.
Current HDMI/DVD w/ HDCP, 720p/1080i, upscalers and coax for audio are good and work. But, switching HDMI is still a concern. My point was none of the current stuff will be good for the next generation of AV toys. For the next generation, you will need HDMI 1.3 and 1080p. That includes the HD-audio on HD-DVD/BR.
Here's a quote you may enjoy: "CBS executives said that they are putting a lot of programming in the can shot in 1080P/24 and that all the new cameras they were buying were 1920X1080P60."
wtr_wkr
11-13-05, 11:03 AM
MCode, good point re PC makers trying to get into the HDTV business. One aspect that I think is important to consider. A lot of people have PCs. Now, they all come with big monitors (20" viewed from as little as 2'.) That's like viewing a 50" HDTV from 5'. Then(not if) video is displayed on these PC screen, it MUST be hi res to be enjoyed AND it will make the current HDTVs look bad. Even Joe Sixpack will see the difference (his kid has a PC.)
[QUOTE=lexx]I for one couldn't care less about Joe Sixpack's viewing habits.
[/QUOTE]
And Joe Sixpac probably don't care about the people with their HTPC's.
Like it or not, Joe Sixpac is the main/primary consumer of many items, and that's also why many items are designed for people like him.
To watch just cable TV do I need HDMI?
To watch movies from a DVD player, will improve quality with an HDMI connection?
[QUOTE=Xayd]No and No.[/QUOTE]
No and maybe, would be a much better, and a much more accurate answer.
Because if the DVD player is one of the many upconverting players, that only offer the upconversion through the HDMI output.
Then it is very likely that it could provide a better picture when used that way, with the HDMI output.
That has nothing to do with the DVD player from a technical standpoint, though, it's just an artificial restriction that a consumer should note and use as his or her reason for not buying that particular player ;).
Or if they should be so unlucky as to buy one that does restrict their output, they should return it and buy another that doesn't.
Then the "no" is completely applicable :D.
wtr_wkr
11-17-05, 11:01 AM
The answer is no and maybe - not no & no. Good upscaling DVD players do a great job of improving PQ and, by licence agreement, only output 720p/1080i over HDMI/DVI with HDCP. I have one of the few DVD players that, at one time, released firmware that output >480p via component. I dought you will find any good DVD players that are violating the chip maker's licence agreement.
[QUOTE=Xayd]
Then the "no" is completely applicable [/QUOTE]
Only in your eyes is it completely applicable, and only because you seem to hate anything to do with HDMI with a passion, no matter what.
[QUOTE=JnC]Also, some real world data points instead of spec sheets and journalistic publications...
DVR: Scientific Atlanta 8300HD (HDMI 1.0 out)
Receiver: Panasonic SA-XR70 (HDMI 1.1 in, 1.0 out)
TV: Hitachi 50V500 (DVI + HDCP)
If I connect the DVR to the Receiver via HDMI: I get DD5.1 audio if the channel is broadcasting it.
If I connect the DVR to the TV via HDMI-DVI cable: I get HDTV video.
If I connect the DVR to the Receiver, and the Receiver to the TV: No audio. No video. HDCP lockout.
That's what I love about standards. They're so incompatible.[/QUOTE]
The number of bug threads with the various POS Cable DVR's is too numerous to ignore. Nearly all seem to point to the box, and not anything in between, per se.
That's what I love about people - they assume so strongly. :)
[QUOTE=wtr_wkr]The answer is no and maybe - not no & no. Good upscaling DVD players do a great job of improving PQ and, by licence agreement, only output 720p/1080i over HDMI/DVI with HDCP. I have one of the few DVD players that, at one time, released firmware that output >480p via component. I dought you will find any good DVD players that are violating the chip maker's licence agreement.[/QUOTE]
I doubt you have done your research.
You are wrong, there are plenty of them.
[QUOTE=Johnla]Only in your eyes is it completely applicable, and only because you seem to hate anything to do with HDMI with a passion, no matter what.[/QUOTE]
Not just mine, for some crazy reason other people also don't like paying for devices that tell them what they can and can't do with their own equipment.
Wonder why?
[QUOTE=Xayd]Not just mine, for some crazy reason other people also don't like paying for devices that tell them what they can and can't do with their own equipment.[/QUOTE]
All that has NOTHING to do with you giving a wrong answer, and basically only just because it's based on "your" biased opinion, and nothing else.
hdmi is so overated...get good conponet cable and you are their...........
Overated or not...If the MPAA ever fully gets their way on all the copy protection BS they are asking for, then it, or some form of it. Will probably someday be the only type of connection that's even allowed to pass any form of HD content.
wtr_wkr
11-18-05, 11:27 AM
Xayd, name any 3 upscaling DVD players that output copy protected source via the Component port in 720p/1080i that I can get at a B&M and you win the debate. Even one that output HDCP stripped source via Component at 720p/1080i would be of interest to the pirates.
No, that's too easy, as he could list a few older low end players, and some that could be modded. So instead, list 3 QUALITY players that anyone can find in a store with ease, and that can do it without being modded in any way. And not the usual low end players, like the Zenith 318, Samsung and Oppo stuff. Which is probably the one's you were going to list.
wtr_wkr
11-19-05, 11:52 AM
Xayd, we are still waiting.
It's not that we like DRM, especially since it is not fixing any significant piracy problem and just screwing good customers, but people need to realize the problems before buying equipment. My setup strips HDCP and outputs 1080i/720p to both DVI and Component. (I use a PC monitor with DVI but WITHOUT HDCP.) That said, most people will only get HD and upscaled DVD via HDMI/DVI with HDCP.
[QUOTE=wtr_wkr]Xayd, name any 3 upscaling DVD players that output copy protected source via the Component port in 720p/1080i that I can get at a B&M and you win the debate. Even one that output HDCP stripped source via Component at 720p/1080i would be of interest to the pirates.[/QUOTE]
How about 5? Quickest 5 I could find in 5 minutes on google...
Momitsu V880-DX
NeuNeo HVD108
Iodata Avel Linkplayer2
Snazio Net DVD Cinema
Zenith DVB318 (with proper firmware)
And as for the rest, there are more which can have HD component output enabled with a simple set of remote commands (similar to region free codes), most of which are listed at http://www.videohelp.com
[QUOTE=Xayd]How about 5? Quickest 5 I could find in 5 minutes on google...
Momitsu V880-DX
NeuNeo HVD108
Iodata Avel Linkplayer2
Snazio Net DVD Cinema
Zenith DVB318 (with proper firmware)
And as for the rest, there are more which can have HD component output enabled with a simple set of remote commands (similar to region free codes), most of which are listed at http://www.videohelp.com[/QUOTE]
And you just proved my point. In that you can not list ANY 3 quality players that you can find in local B&M stores!
And that some are also ones that need some form of modding to make it work. The Zenith is more or less of very low quality and pretty much is a joke, because you need to go back to a older firmware that has it's own set of different problems and issues with it.
What the hell difference does it make where it came from?
This is no different than the Region coding fiasco of a few years ago. Other countries to not have or respect the US's rather silly copyright laws, so any player manufactured abroad does not have the same restrictions. It's as simple as that.
And as far as quality players? You are grasping at straws that are far out of reach, I'm afraid. Your argument revolves around buying a MPEG-1/2 player from a store in Podunk, Idaho, whereas these Sigma chipset players which DO output whatever you like over analog can not only upscale MPEG1 and MPEG2 over analog connections but can also output native HD MPEG2 and MPEG4 over analog as well. Sorry, you should've researched your "quality" argument a bit better, obviously.
Did your B&M store tell you that the FedEx guy would kick your dog if you didn't buy it from him or something?
monkeyphant
11-19-05, 05:19 PM
No one seems to have an answer for this question: what is the advantage of HDMI Audio if you use outboard amplifiers? In other words, you have a DVD player with HDMI output connected to a Preamp/Processor with HDMI Input. Now, if you connect the Preamp/Processor analog preamp outputs to a bank of outboard amplifiers, what is the advantage of using HDMI to carry an audio signal? Am I missing something?
Monkey
Same benefit as using it for a cable/satellite box or DVD...nothing.
tucson_bill
11-19-05, 07:01 PM
[QUOTE=jlee92][COLOR=black]
RCA (analog) is lossy, and requires many cables (6 for DD5.1)
TOS/COAX (SPDIF) is max'ed out with compressed digital formats like DD & DTS. It doesn't have the bandwidth to do DVD-Audio or SACD (nor the copy protection).
HDMI is lossless, a single cable, and has bandwidth to do 8 channels @ 192kHz or more.[/color][/quote]
1. For those of us who have chosen to view this forum in "avs white" format your choice of using a white font for the quotes instead of simply quoting them is a PITA.
2. I'm not sure what you think "lossy" means, but at the engineering school I attended we didn't talk about losses in 6 foot cables.
3. I don't think that firewire has any effect on HDMI. Why didn't you just tell him that the two standards have nothing to do with one another?
[QUOTE=Xayd]What the hell difference does it make where it came from?
[/QUOTE]
A lot, as it certainly proved you wrong!
[QUOTE=tucson_bill]1. For those of us who have chosen to view this forum in "avs white" format your choice of using a white font for the quotes instead of simply quoting them is a PITA.[/QUOTE]
White it the default of the forum software itself for quotes, so you are the one that made the change, by choosing white as your main color now. So now you are asking everyone else to change their softwares default setting basically just to please you and some others that have chosen white. Nope, it was your choice to change to white, so any downside to it was also caused by you and your choice.
[QUOTE=monkeyphant] In other words, you have a DVD player with HDMI output connected to a Preamp/Processor with HDMI Input. Now, if you connect the Preamp/Processor analog preamp outputs to a bank of outboard amplifiers, what is the advantage of using HDMI to carry an audio signal? Am I missing something? [/QUOTE]
Once a input is made to a preamp/processor, no matter how it is done. It does not effect or change in any way the connection of the preamp/processor to the outboard amplifiers. They are actually two different reasons for a connection, one is the source input to the preamp/processor. And the other is the output of the preamp/processor (and after all the preamp processing is done), physical/electrical connection to the amplifiers.
[QUOTE=Johnla]A lot, as it certainly proved you wrong![/QUOTE]
so tell me, are you sure your local dealer is ok with you posting on this forum? considering there's a discount for a HD/MPEG1/MPEG2/MPEG3/MPEG4/WMV-HD player that upscales DVDs over COMPONENT available to members of this very forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=598259)?
hurry and cover your eyes! :eek:
Your poor excuse of trying to make a argument for buying on the net vs buying at a B&M as your only support for your misguided views of HDMI, is a total joke! And it does absolutely nothing in as far as proving you as being the only one right in any way.
[QUOTE=Xayd]so tell me, are you sure your local dealer is ok with you posting on this forum? [/QUOTE]
LOL, oh what a poor feebel attempt that was ....
Your very poor excuse of trying to make a argument for buying on the net vs buying at a B&M as your only support for your misguided views of HDMI, is a total joke! And it does absolutely nothing in as far as proving you as being the only one right in any way.
[QUOTE=Johnla]White it the default of the forum software itself for quotes, so you are the one that made the change, by choosing white as your main color now. So now you are asking everyone else to change their softwares default setting basically just to please you and some others that have chosen white. Nope, it was your choice to change to white, so any downside to it was also caused by you and your choice.[/QUOTE]
You are simply incorrect. The advice given was spot-on. jlee is hard coding "color=white" for quoted material instead of using the more appropriate "quote" meta-tag. This makes the posts very difficult for the many, many AVS Forum users who choose to use the other color scheme supported by the software.
He's welcome to continue to damage his posts in that manner, but be aware that a lot of us are just skipping past them because they're so hard to read.
In that respect, yes you are right. That he quoted in the wrong way.
But I won't even mention how bad/hard to read that tucson_bill's quote of jlee92s post, which was in black, looked on the default setup of the normal dark backround.
[QUOTE=Johnla]LOL, oh what a poor feebel attempt that was ....
Your very poor excuse of trying to make a argument for buying on the net vs buying at a B&M as your only support for your misguided views of HDMI, is a total joke! And it does absolutely nothing in as far as proving you as being the only one right in any way.[/QUOTE]
no, you are trying to limit the discussion to a list of devices pre-chosen to support your defenseless argument based on criteria which you and i both know is irrelevant.
i'll just take your omission of the player offered not only to the public, but to members of this very forum at a discount by the manufacturer, which not only meets the functionality you originally said didn't exist but far exceeds it, as an admission of defeat and leave it at that. k?
[QUOTE=Xayd]no, you are trying to limit the discussion to a list of devices pre-chosen to support your defenseless argument based on criteria which you and i both know is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
No it is not! It is VERY relevant!
What if I want a 400 DVD changer with upconversion? Show me one that does it over component without modification. You can't!
But you can easily buy one anywhere that does it over HDMI.
Show me the single disk ones made by Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer, Sony, or Yamaha that do, or soon will offer upconversion over component without modification. You can't!
But you can easily buy those same brands anywhere that will do it now, or soon will over HDMI.
Just because you can try and order or even buy something over the net. Say like drugs that are illegal in the country that you live in. And you decide to try and order and buy them from a foreign country where they are legal. That in no way makes it a legal purchase for you that you can legally now try to have sent to you, and use in the country you are in. Granted that example may be a bit extreme, but it's the same thing. That just because you can buy or order something over the net, that alone does not really mean a whole lot, other than you can maybe do it.
[QUOTE=Xayd]no, you are trying to limit the discussion to a list of devices pre-chosen to support your defenseless argument based on criteria which you and i both know is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
No it is not! It is VERY relevant!
What if I want a 400 DVD changer with upconversion? Show me one that does it over component without modification. You can't!
But you can easily buy one anywhere that does it over HDMI.
Show me the single disk ones made by Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer, Sony, or Yamaha that do, or soon will offer upconversion over component without modification. You can't!
But you can easily buy those same brands anywhere that will do it now, or soon will over HDMI.
Just because you can try and order or even buy something over the net. Say like drugs that are illegal in the country that you live in. And you decide to try and order and buy them from a foreign country where they are legal. That in no way makes it a legal purchase for you that you can legally now try to have sent to you, and use in the country you are in. Granted that example is more than just a bit extreme, but it's the same thing. That just because you can buy or order something over the net, no matter what it may be. That alone does not really mean a whole lot, other than you can maybe do it.
[QUOTE=Xayd]i'll just take your omission of the player offered not only to the public, but to members of this very forum at a discount by the manufacturer, which not only meets the functionality you originally said didn't exist but far exceeds it,[/QUOTE]
No... All you really did was bring up a few outdated ones, and even more that are basically nothing more than some "no name" brands of questionable quality. Which is EXACTLY what I said you were going to do, and before you even did it!
And you pretty much had to do that, because those are the only kinds that you can find that will support you....
What happens if I want a DVD player that can play from an external hard drive over USB/Firewire or over my computer network, huh? Show me a B&M MPEG1/2 DVD player that can do that! You see how ridiculous your argument is?
So DVD players that have analog outputs are comparable illegal drugs now? LOL. You fanboys of the movie industry are entertaining, I'll give you that...
And for the third time, your "questionable quality" argument is only a valid argument in your own mind.
The players you insist on limiting your pre-decided notions and assumptions to are just MPEG-2 players.
The players I keep pointing out to you not only do what you insist cannot be done with MPEG2, but play MORE content than your examples do, including native HD content in MPEG2, MPEG4, and WMV format, which the players you're hiding behind do not.
Standard dvd players are the inferior quality in this argument, chief.
GoldenEarDrums
11-20-05, 02:41 AM
I think that Xayd has a lot of valid points here. Besides the issue is not about being able to buy these products at B&M or the Net. Almost everyone in this forum buy from the Net especially if the price is right and beats B&M's.
For him to say "No & No" maybe in the gray area but also depends on what the originator is really asking. He didn't particularly asked if HDMI is better with UPCONVERSION but simply if it is BETTER with HDMI. So "NO" and "MAYBE" is both the right answer for his particular question depending on the angle of interpretation.
Johnla, your point of attack to Xayd's response is unilateral. You are right in one point that HDMI maybe inevitable but for the meantime, its final outcome is uncertain. For now, I am in Xayd's side, use existing technology that works and do so with FREEDOM of choice.
Carry on till somebody hacks HDCP. :D
...
[QUOTE=Xayd]What happens if I want a DVD player that can play from an external hard drive over USB/Firewire or over my computer network, huh? Show me a B&M MPEG1/2 DVD player that can do that! You see how ridiculous your argument is?
[/QUOTE]
Like I have told you before, the HTPC stuff is in the minority, and the majority of the A/V market, and people in the majority of the buying public of all A/V gear. For the most part does not give a rats derriere about your HTPC setup, or your problems with using it in certain ways. So if you have issues with HTPC stuff, you really should be in the HTPC area, and not trying to push all your "anti" HDMI views here. Because now you are trying to push reasons as "support" of your misguided views of HDMI, that the vast majority here will never ever even see or experience!
[QUOTE=Xayd]Standard dvd players are the inferior quality in this argument, chief.[/QUOTE]
Only in your eyes they are Tonto, only in your eyes.....
GoldenEarDrums
11-20-05, 02:57 AM
huh?? Anyway, also look at the threads and posts here regarding the problem with HDMI. I don't care where the problem originates, but one thing is obvious, there is a current PROBLEM with HDMI, period. So it is up to the users if they want to deal with this problem right now or not.
I say right now, the more you stay away with it, the more problem free you are. If it ain't broke, no reason to fix it. Maybe in the future it will get better. That is only after we are FORCED to use it.
...
[QUOTE=GoldenEarDrums]
Carry on till somebody hacks HDCP.
...[/QUOTE]
It's basically has been done already, at least in a add-on hardware form it has for DVI. But it also ain't cheap, at around $480
But I would expect it to probably happen for HDMI sooner or later also. Or some may just use the above with a HDMI to DVI adaptor.
Just do a search for Spatz-Tech and/or dvimagic
[QUOTE=GoldenEarDrums]huh?? Anyway, also look at the threads and posts here regarding the problem with HDMI.[/QUOTE]
Yeah and if you would really look, the majority of all the problems are mainly with certain cables boxes, and that they alone are the cause of their problems.
monkeyphant
11-20-05, 07:31 AM
Same benefit as using it for a cable/satellite box or DVD...nothing.
And that's my point about using HDMI to transmit a digital audio signal: the digital signal from the DVD player, regardless of whether it is carried by an HDMI, Digital or Coax Cable, has to go through a digital to analog conversion in the Preamp Processor. HDMI cable offers ABSOULTELY NOTHNG when using outboard amps.
[QUOTE=GoldenEarDrums]huh?? Anyway, also look at the threads and posts here regarding the problem with HDMI. I don't care where the problem originates, but one thing is obvious, there is a current PROBLEM with HDMI, period. So it is up to the users if they want to deal with this problem right now or not.
I say right now, the more you stay away with it, the more problem free you are. If it ain't broke, no reason to fix it. Maybe in the future it will get better. That is only after we are FORCED to use it.
...[/QUOTE]
The compatibility issues with HDMI are due to its infancy..
Since it is a wide bandwidth digital bus, more experience is required by the hardware/software designers..
The situation is no different than the PC Plug and Play breakthrough..
Promised by Mr.Gates and Intel.. Took 3 generations of Windows to get it operating reliably.. Regarding the HDMI and cable box issues, the latest Sound & Vision magazine has an interesting discussion for this as well cablecard...
In today's HD and content protection world.. these types of compatibility issues will surface often.. also here comes display port by Vesa.. :rolleyes:
wtr_wkr
11-20-05, 10:24 AM
Xayd, I have a Z318 with down rev'ed firmware so I can watch DVD's with HDCP on my non-HDCP LCD monitor(DVI&VGA-no Component). Will the SnaZio* HD Networked DVD Player SZ1350 upscale a DVD with DRM and output to a non-HDCP monitor via DVI?
[QUOTE=monkeyphant] HDMI cable offers ABSOULTELY NOTHNG when using outboard amps.[/QUOTE]
And no one ever said that it did. And I don't know why anyone would even think that it would......
tucson_bill
11-20-05, 04:32 PM
[QUOTE=Johnla]In that respect, yes you are right. That he quoted in the wrong way.
But I won't even mention how bad/hard to read that tucson_bill's quote of jlee92s post, which was in black, looked on the default setup of the normal dark backround.[/QUOTE]That was kind of the point.
[QUOTE=tucson_bill]That was kind of the point.[/QUOTE]
What, that you decided to change a color to make a point.....
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