Panasonic S97 Color Question

[jayselle]

I have the Panasonic S97 with the 540 firmware hooked up to my Samsung 5685 via HDMI 720p.

I am not real impressed with the picture. Background areas/colors do not seem smooth. For example a green billboard might appears to have "bugs" (dark green, light green, etc, artifacts) in it or a grey shirt might not be solid grey, but seem to be moving. Reminds me of bad VHS quality.

I have noticed this on all the movies I have watched so far. Maybe I am so used to watching HDTV everything else looks like crap, but it really makes me grind me teeth when watching DVD's now.

There are three color settings, RGB and then two YbCr's. What do you guys use?

HDTV just blows away DVD's and it shouldn't be that obvious.

[LiteUp!]

If your set truly has a HDMI input, you should probably use YCbCr 4:4:4. I use RGB because my projector has DVI....and that is the correct (and only allowed setting there). However, you can and should experiment. Is your set 720p native?

[egore]

That sort of sounds like macro-blocking. Try 480p mode and see if it goes away or is reduced.

[jayselle]

Originally posted by egore
That sort of sounds like macro-blocking. Try 480p mode and see if it goes away or is reduced.

Doesn't matter 480p/720p, it is really bad. Perhaps I am asking too much, but it really pales in comparison to HD.

The 5685 DLP is native 720p with HDMi and DVI inputs. I am obviously using the HDMI output from the S97.

Just put in Bad Boys 2 Anamorphic Widescreen and the water seems grainy and the picture appears to be almost like static. A good picture, but nonetheless, unacceptable.

I really hate to have to buy a $1000 DVD player to just get a decent picture on my TV.

[Blood Simple]

turn on noise reduction

[LiteUp!]

Of course DVD is going to pale in comparison to HD....DVD has 1/6th the resolution/pixels of HD (720x480 vs. 1920x1080).

You're not going to get much of a better picture from DVD than the S97 can give you (assuming you are not having some massive MB problem with your particular display). The S97 even has NR features built into it much like the Algolith Mosquito unit. Try running at 720p, 4:4:4, and 3D-DNR @ +1. If that is not to your liking...continue to experiment some (try adding Depth Enhancer @ +1 to the 3D-DNR @ +1)...that is the fun of home theater. With the S97 and these NR settings...it is even possible to make a DVD look better than what was encoded on the disc. I don't believe the Denon 2910 even has any of these features.

;)

Here is a cut and paste from the S97 Brain Dump thread:

Guide to S97 Noise Reduction (thanks to Hugh2):
-------------------------------------------------------------

Depth Enhancer, MPEG DNR, 3D-NR

I've spent some time with each of the above noise reducer options and would like to share my thoughts. First off I'll say that yes all three of these noise reducers do work and all in slightly different manner. I know little of the algorithms and processing of how these filters work so I'll just offer my viewing observations.

Depth Enhancer

Effect is subtle but evident on a number of disks I've looked at at full player zoom plus full Iscan zoom. The filter averages dark and light areas in a random manner smoothing the image subtly on both the horizontal and vertical plain equally. This filter does not discriminate noise artifacts from non therefore smooths the entire image equally on all plains. Except for the smoothing effect this filter has no obvious artifacts. This filter seems to work more precisely on a more pixel by pixel basis and is far more subtle than the MPEG DNR.

MPEG DNR

This filter has the most obvious most intrusive effect of the three. It appears to work by smoothing much larger blocks of the image than the others but surprisingly smooths the image by smoothing pixels biased on the vertical axis. On setting one I can see the vertical streaking beginning to appear as the filter begins to squeeze out the contrasting elements of the image. The untouched lightly colored areas become thinner therefore also appear taller which gives the overall effect of light colored vertical streaking artifacts similar to what you see in scratched moving film but much finer obviously. At the highest position most evidence of the streaking is gone as the smoothing oils merge and become one. This filter does not discriminate and affects the entire image.

3D-NR

This filter is quite interesting and is completely different from the other two. It has no affect on a static image or parts of the image free of visible noise. Therefore when either the image is paused or when no noise is present the filter does nothing, to use a military term it works like a smart bomb with little collateral damage. The filter attacks only the quick moving noise artifacts of the image and instead of the usual smoothing method of concealment this NR instead somehow slows down the quick movment to a relative crawl and in some cases to a stand still (sort of like digital molasses filter). I've noticed the NR does not work with all types of noise where on some noisy images it's effect was obvious while seemingly similar conditions in other images no effect was noticed. This filter has no negative smoothing/blurring streaking artifacts I could perceive and can be cranked up without worry. Overall this filter is very impressive though subtle.

Edit: After a few more days of using the 3D-NR filter I have noticed during cetain scenes it does have an obvious artifact. I've only witnessed this artifact on human skin during slow or fast movement but it must be present elswhere as well. The artifact is a quasi double image which appears in sections where there is obvious color changes such as blushed cheek bones for instance. When the subject moves one image legs behind by slightly but is pulled along like it's attached by an elastic.

Using 3D-NR and Depth Enhancer in tandem has a synergistic but subtle effect and works pretty well at removing minor noise and except for the double image artifact at times there is only minor loss of image quality. Setting Depth Enhancer on 1 (2, 3, and 4 have little additional benefit) and 3D-NR on 1 or 2 (not cranked as previously thought) should be suitable for most conditions but YMMV.

Since all images have a certain amount of noise I feel comfortable turning on these two filters and just leave it. If further NR is required then simply using the MPEG DNR at setting 1 or 2 should suffice, but I would avoid using this filter unless necessary.

[August West]

Also, try 480i via component to see what this does. I agree that this sounds like macroblocking. I rarely see MB but observed that changing from 720p to 480p had little effect on this (at least in my case). Changing from either of those settings to 480i (via component) made the effect go away, although the picture quality does suffer as a result. If I recall the discussions properly in Paul Bigelow's thread, the 480i setting of all settings is the only one that does not engage the Faroujda chip. I believe that even the 480p setting via component uses the chip. Perhaps someone else can confirm this.

[TCroly]

I have some similar complaints with my S97 at 720p via HDMI to my Sanyo Z3. There is some extra noise that is visible. I have found that 480i produces the cleanest image on my display. When viewing static DVE test images I can see that the up-sampling and the deinterlacing of the s97 each introduce some artifacts that I do not see when I allow my projector to handle these tasks.

All this being said, these artifacts are minor and might not be noticed by the casual viewer.

Tom

[egore]

What firmare are you running? I updated mine with the latest 540 firmware and I get no macroblocking at 480p compared to 720p.

[TCroly]

I have firmware version 540. I am not sure that the problems that I call "noise" are indeed Macroblocking. My complaint on 720p is the introduction of banding in smooth gradients and video noise most noticeable in something like a sky.

Tom

[egore]

HDMI 480p, 720p and 1080i reveals allot more noise than 480p through component. I don't know if HDMI is causing the noise or just revealing whats already there.

[vhato]

I am still kinda new to this so I don't know all the terms.

Last night I was watching "Lean: The Specialist" on SuperBit DVD as I was expecting the least amount of compression. During the begining of the opening scene I could see rows of varying shades of grey all the way to black. It was not a smooth transition. Back in my day of 3Dfx graphics this error was known as "banding".

I do not know if this was due to MPEG Compression on the movie or the S97 w/540 Firmware via DVI. I will play it again later on my Xbox via Component and see. I PRAY it is MPEG Compression at its best.

[jayselle]

Originally posted by vhato
I am still kinda new to this so I don't know all the terms.

Last night I was watching "Lean: The Specialist" on SuperBit DVD as I was expecting the least amount of compression. During the begining of the opening scene I could see rows of varying shades of grey all the way to black. It was not a smooth transition. Back in my day of 3Dfx graphics this error was known as "banding".

I do not know if this was due to MPEG Compression on the movie or the S97 w/540 Firmware via DVI. I will play it again later on my Xbox via Component and see. I PRAY it is MPEG Compression at its best.

Exactly what I experience. I am not a perfectionist but it makes watching DVD's a sickening experience. Some scenes are just fantastic, then some are awful. Like in Ladder 49 there is a hospital scene and the walls are all green and appear to be made of static. The white sheets are not white, but will switch in and out between green, white, pink at a very fast rate. Just disgusting.

My father has a 57" Hitachi HDTV CRT and a $100 Sony DVD player and none of this happens to him; I paid 3 times what he did and this is what I get?

I am going to get a component cable and try without HDMI.

[vhato]

I have Ladder 49 and haven't watched it yet. I will see also.

[vhato]

I just reinserted "Leon: The Professional" on SuperBit. Nothing I did while messing around with setup controls and Noise Reduction has ANY impact. However, I am running at 720p via HDMI. I bumped up to 1080i, same results. Finally I hit 480p.................What, no more color banding with animated splotches bouncing around.

From what I understand when up converting the S97 uses the Faroudja Processor. I am convinced there lies the problem. Either a firmware issue or the Faroudja Processor itself.

[vhato]

Apparently this is an issue with this player according to a review I read on the internet. I can still see *tiny* amounts of banding at 480p, but I would say a 90% reduction from what I saw in 720p/1080i.

1. One site stated Pansonic used an MEI MPEG Decoder and that is causing the problem and the added Faroudja Genesis Chip makes it worse, but it should have covered it up.

2. Another site stated the problem is an error when converting the color space from Component Color Space (YPbPr or whatever it is) to HDMI's RGB.

3. And I finally found another site that said ALL UpConverting DVD Players currently exhibit this behavior.

I don't know what any this means. I just wrote it in hopes it may help you find us an answer.

[greeno]

Dancing splotches == macroblocking (MB)

MB is due to FL23XX (SF motion adaptive deinterlacer) amplification of the ever present mpeg errors. All FL23xx based players are susceptible to it.

The SD/HD color space mismatch results in green depression.

Can't comment on how MEI factors into MB.

The typical fix is to adjust the display settings to minimize it. Or get a new/different player.

Best,
jeff

[jayselle]

Originally posted by vhato
I just reinserted "Leon: The Professional" on SuperBit. Nothing I did while messing around with setup controls and Noise Reduction has ANY impact. However, I am running at 720p via HDMI. I bumped up to 1080i, same results. Finally I hit 480p.................What, no more color banding with animated splotches bouncing around.

From what I understand when up converting the S97 uses the Faroudja Processor. I am convinced there lies the problem. Either a firmware issue or the Faroudja Processor itself.

Your running 480p with HDMI right? I will give that a shot.

[egore]

The Faroudja Processor is active when running in 480p HDMI and component, 720p and 1080i. It's not use when in 480i mode. The S97 does use the proper colour space for HD but unfortunately there is macroblocking in 720p and 1080i mode.

[jayselle]

Originally posted by egore
The Faroudja Processor is active when running in 480p HDMI and component, 720p and 1080i. It's not use when in 480i mode. The S97 does use the proper colour space for HD but unfortunately there is macroblocking in 720p and 1080i mode.

How can people claim they do not see any macroblocking? I see it everywhere, some DVD's are worse then others depending on the scenes. But it is obviously there and very obnoxious.

[vhato]

Damn this thread. I see it now to. The reduction to 480p solved my problem with Leon The Professional, but The Matrix's opening sequence just before the police fight Trinity shows MB in the Flash Light Beams reguardless of my upconversion mode..


This is beginning to suck.

[greeno]

vhato,
See if you can tweak your display settings a bit to minimize it. I only noticed it on one title and I've had it for over 1 year (watching maybe 7 titles per month, maybe more). If you read what Kris Deering says about MB, it's really just amplification of the intrinsic mpeg noise on the dvd. So if you're seeing it and it's in your face, try turning brightness down a click or two. It might make all the difference.

Best,
jeff

[vhato]

That works, but I gotta turn contrast down to levels below what I like. The Xbox allows me to maintain my preferred contrast level.

[August West]

Originally posted by jayselle
How can people claim they do not see any macroblocking? I see it everywhere, some DVD's are worse then others depending on the scenes. But it is obviously there and very obnoxious.

This question has been asked many times but I don't think an answer has been found that everyone agrees with. Firmware revision levels seem to havwe something to do with this.

Other evidence indicates that, even though MB is created by the S97, that the amount MB may be display dependent. I have a Mitsu DLP and have only seen bad macroblocking once, on a scene in Donnie Darko. I saw a post once giving a scene from I Robot as having bad MB but when I played it and looked for it specifically I did not see any. I can't explain why this is but a number of people have reported an opinion that the display plays a role here.

Others seem to think that use of DNR and other video settings (other than use of 480i which clearly removes the problem) helps although I have not tried this myself.

I wonder if there are not some kind of manufacturing tolerances that come into play, that certain chips are built "better" than others.

[jayselle]

Originally posted by vhato
That works, but I gotta turn contrast down to levels below what I like. The Xbox allows me to maintain my preferred contrast level.

Same applies to me. I can significantly reduce the MB by adjusting the contrast and brightness, but then the picture doesn't seem quite as good. We will just have to find a happy medium between excessive MB and a decent picture.

I have a Samsung 5685 which uses the HD2+ and one of the highest contrast ratios (2500:1) available for DLP's, so I am sure my TV is up to the task of displaying the images.

My HD cable box DVR (Motorola 6412) has next to no MB on movie channels and other digital channels. Of course HD content on the HD channels is absolutely perfect for the most part.

So I guess I will just have to wait for Blu-Ray to be happy, or sell my automobile and buy a Denon 5910.

[greeno]

Or take a look at the neuneo 208. It's a different chipset.
jeff