Panasonic Policy prohibiting digital audio out with Cable Card?

[caesar1]

Found this posted in another forum:

"Contact Panasonic and ask them to put you in touch with a technical engineer and ask them the same question. I am not allowed to reproduce the email I got from Panasonic about this question, but I can state the general answer. it is Panasonics policy to not pass audio along to a device when the CCI count is greater then 0x00."

Anyone know if this is true? What this means is, Panasonic's policy is to diable the digital audio out when the copy protection data from the cable company feed on a particular channel is higher than 0x00 (i.e 0x02).

Apparently it is quite common for cable companies to put "0x02" in the data regarding copy protection.

As a result, my $4,000.00 50 inch Panasonic plasma does not put out digital audio on the majority of cable digitial channels (no surround sound on INHD concerts; no surround sound on Encore movies, only analog).

Whom can we work with at Panasonic to change this policy ASAP -- via firmware?

I'm thinking class action suit since they didn't disclose this.

[optivity]

[QUOTE=caesar1]Found this posted in another forum:

"Contact Panasonic and ask them to put you in touch with a technical engineer and ask them the same question. I am not allowed to reproduce the email I got from Panasonic about this question, but I can state the general answer. it is [color=red]Panasonics policy to not pass audio along to a device when the CCI count is greater then 0x00[/color]."

Anyone know if this is true? What this means is, Panasonic's policy is to diable the digital audio out when the copy protection data from the cable company feed on a particular channel is higher than 0x00 (i.e 0x02).

Apparently it is quite common for cable companies to put "0x02" in the data regarding copy protection.

As a result, my $4,000.00 50 inch Panasonic plasma does not put out digital audio on the majority of cable digitial channels (no surround sound on INHD concerts; no surround sound on Encore movies, only analog).

Whom can we work with at Panasonic to change this policy ASAP -- via firmware?

I'm thinking class action suit since they didn't disclose this.[/QUOTE]This is "bullshit!" I've observed Time Warner flipping their copy protection values back & forth for six months. A CCI byte value 0x02 means copy protection [color=red]may[/color] or [color=red]may not[/color] be enforced. The key with a CCI byte value of 0x02 is if an ECM (entitlement control message) is also passed...

CCI 0x02 + ECM detection = optical digital interface disabled

CCI 0x02 with no ECM's detected = optical digital interface enabled

These policies are enforced by your cable provider’s head end... nowhere else.

Panasonic builds DCR-TVs that adhere to the OCAP 1.0 spec, and their PDPs work as intended.

[dtrell]

mods, i think all of these threads need to be merged under one "cable cards are useless" thread...LOL

[Solderbot]

[QUOTE=dtrell]mods, i think all of these threads need to be merged under one "cable cards are useless" thread...LOL[/QUOTE]

Optivity NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! Put it down! It's not worth it!!!

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=optivity]This is "bullshit!" I've observed Time Warner flipping their copy protection values back & forth for six months. A CCI byte value 0x02 means copy protection [color=red]may[/color] or [color=red]may not[/color] be enforced. The key with a CCI byte value of 0x02 is if an ECM (entitlement control message) is also passed...

CCI 0x02 + ECM detection = optical digital interface disabled

CCI 0x02 with no ECM's detected = optical digital interface enabled

These policies are enforced by your cable provider’s head end... nowhere else.

Panasonic builds DCR-TVs that adhere to the OCAP 1.0 spec, and their PDPs work as intended.[/QUOTE]

Is there a status screen where you can see "ECM Detection" on a Panasonic plasma?

I always see 0x02 on the cablecard info screen. But, as you know, other than the broadcast digital channels, digital audio out is being blocked. So the ECM must vary based on channels.

So where can I see whether ECM detection is different on certain channels? Is there another hidden screen for this?

Also, what is the purpose of "ECM". Is there any reason that the cable company would have to impose an "ECM" on ESPN, INHD, Discovery-HD, etc.?

[optivity]

[QUOTE=Solderbot]Optivity NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! Put it down! It's not worth it!!![/QUOTE]Sorry... but I can’t, because I understand that for CATV subscribers this, according to the MPAA and our Cable TV providers, is how Conditional Access to "High Value" digital content works.

I feel sorry for those of us who are paying good money to be "hosed" by our cable providers.

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=optivity]Sorry... but I can’t, because I understand that for CATV subscribers this, according to the MPAA and our Cable TV providers, is how Conditional Access to "High Value" digital content works.

I feel sorry for those of us who are paying good money to be "hosed" by our cable providers.[/QUOTE]

So how do we see ECM on our TV screens? Is there a menu to see that being passed or not?

[optivity]

TWC local channel 1806 NBC-HD:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/0x02_no_ecm.JPG

Dolby Digital sound enabled:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/dolby_d_ex.JPG

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/dolby_d_3_2.1.JPG

TWC channel 1827 TNT-HD:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/0x02_with_ecms.JPG

Dolby Digital sound disabled:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/analog_pcm.JPG

[Xayd]

[QUOTE=optivity]Sorry... but I can’t, because I understand that for CATV subscribers this, according to the MPAA and our Cable TV providers, is how Conditional Access to "High Value" digital content works.

I feel sorry for those of us who are paying good money to be "hosed" by our cable providers.[/QUOTE]

solution is pretty obvious. tell them as of now they have "conditional access" to your money and if they want their card back they can come get it.

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=optivity]TWC local channel 1806 NBC-HD:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/0x02_no_ecm.JPG

Dolby Digital sound enabled:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/dolby_d_ex.JPG

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/dolby_d_3_2.1.JPG

TWC channel 1827 TNT-HD:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/0x02_with_ecms.JPG

Dolby Digital sound disabled:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/analog_pcm.JPG[/QUOTE]

So those screens are based not just on the TV, but the type of cable card. I don't see "ECM Count" or "decryption status" anywhere -- but I have a Motorola Cable card. Perhaps that is why.

[optivity]

[QUOTE=Xayd]solution is pretty obvious. tell them as of now they have "conditional access" to your money and if they want their card back they can come get it.[/QUOTE]I've "dumped" $100 per month of Time Warner's digital cable/broadband Internet services. ;)

[Xayd]

if there's one lesson i've learned from watching other people's misery with new digital formats, kinda like the poker saying of "always leave yourself an out", it's "always leave yourself an (analog) out" ;)

i'll not be replacing my component video devices or my component/coax cable box any time soon ;).

[optivity]

as your cable provider intends you do...

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=optivity]as your cable provider intends you do...[/QUOTE]

Opt: has your cable company flat out refused to make the ECM changes you asked for? Or is it you can't get in touch with the right person who has the authority to do that?

It seems simple. Make ECM the same on both local broadcast digital channels as on all digital channels, so that the all digital channels = the current ECM on local broadcast digitals.

Do they not even want to try that? If not -- why not? I don't understand the problem from the cable company end?

[cob206]

Could somebody point me to a more detailed explanation of the "CCI" byte and "ECM" count?? Before I bitch out Comcast, I want to have a better understanding. Thanks.

[optivity]

[QUOTE=caesar1]Opt: has your cable company flat out refused to make the ECM changes you asked for? Or is it you can't get in touch with the right person who has the authority to do that?

It seems simple. Make ECM the same on both local broadcast digital channels as on all digital channels, so that the all digital channels = the current ECM on local broadcast digitals.

Do they not even want to try that? If not -- why not? I don't understand the problem from the cable company end?[/QUOTE]I had my CableCARD installed last June. By August/September I understood Time Warner's Conditional Access policies, and when I called them on it... they informed me that nothing would change anytime soon; so this is where things stand. Last May before I got the CableCARD my cable bill was $158 per month, currently I spend $75 per month for cable TV. My theory regarding why cable TV providers disable a TV's optical audio output is the OCAP 1.0 spec and SA's/Motorola's/Time Warner's/Comcast's hardware/firmware/head-end design cannot differentiate one digital interface from another (e.g. optical audio versus IEEE 1394 FireWire) so with copy protection either all digital outputs are enabled or they are disabled.

Even "optivity" can write better code than this! :rolleyes:

[dtrell]

i pay cable 124 right now. if i got rid of the box and had a tv with a cable card and used that, id save exactly 6 bucks a month.

[optivity]

I dumped all of my "not-so-premium" movie channels and RoadRunner Internet service too!

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=optivity]I had my CableCARD installed last June. By August/September I understood Time Warner's Conditional Access policies, and when I called them on it... they informed me that nothing would change anytime soon; so this is where things stand. Last May before I got the CableCARD my cable bill was $158 per month, currently I spend $75 per month for cable TV. My theory regarding why cable TV providers disable a TV's optical audio output is the OCAP 1.0 spec and SA's/Motorola's/Time Warner's/Comcast's hardware/firmware/head-end design cannot differentiate one digital interface from another (e.g. optical audio versus IEEE 1394 FireWire) so with copy protection either all digital outputs are enabled or they are disabled.

Even "optivity" can write better code than this! :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Yes, but did they say WHY nothing would change anytime soon? IN other words, what's the big deal about doing what you asked. Or did they not say why?

[optivity]

The BIG DEAL is they want you to rent their STBs, which also opens the door to sell you PPV, etc., services.

The BIGGER DEAL is the MPAA is "scared-to-death" of people making HD quality copies of movies/TV shows and sharing them on the Internet.

[nailzer]

[QUOTE=optivity]The BIG DEAL is they want you to rent their STBs, which also opens the door to sell you PPV, etc., services.

The BIGGER DEAL is the MPAA is "scared-to-death" of people making HD quality copies of movies/TV shows and sharing them on the Internet.[/QUOTE]

Makes me glad I still have my old C-Band satellite dish so I don't have to put up with all the cable, MPAA, copy protection garbage.

[Xayd]

[QUOTE=optivity]The BIG DEAL is they want you to rent their STBs, which also opens the door to sell you PPV, etc., services.

The BIGGER DEAL is the MPAA is "scared-to-death" of people making HD quality copies of movies/TV shows and sharing them on the Internet.[/QUOTE]

that doesn't really apply here tho. the copy protection thing isn't a factor on the audio.

the s/pdif output of their cable box can be plugged directly into any sound card with a s/pdif input and recorded bit for bit.

i could see the argument on the STB from the cable company, though, regarding pay per view and what not.

either way, the difference in price for me is like 10 dollars a month for the STB and 3 dollars a month to rent their card. for the extra 7 bucks the on-screen guide is worth it to me, i use it and the reminders you can set on it religiously.

/shrug

[optivity]

[QUOTE=Xayd]that doesn't really apply here tho. the copy protection thing isn't a factor on the audio.

the s/pdif output of their cable box can be plugged directly into any sound card with a s/pdif input and recorded bit for bit.

i could see the argument on the STB from the cable company, though, regarding pay per view and what not.

either way, the difference in price for me is like 10 dollars a month for the STB and 3 dollars a month to rent their card. for the extra 7 bucks the on-screen guide is worth it to me, i use it and the reminders you can set on it religiously.

/shrug[/QUOTE]Conditional Access may be applied to "any" digital interface of a DCR device.

$ values below $$$$ figures is basically inconsequential to me... it's a matter of achieving the best picture possible and receiving the service I pay for.

/sigh

[UberNerd]

[QUOTE=nailzer]Makes me glad I still have my old C-Band satellite dish so I don't have to put up with all the cable, MPAA, copy protection garbage.[/QUOTE]

So what can you get on C-Band? My dad's neighbor has a C-Band dish and receiver and wants to get rid of it. It's not hooked up and hasn't been for years so I can't check it out.

Peace,

[nailzer]

[QUOTE=UberNerd]So what can you get on C-Band? My dad's neighbor has a C-Band dish and receiver and wants to get rid of it. It's not hooked up and hasn't been for years so I can't check it out.

Peace,[/QUOTE]
The first thing you would need is a Motorola DSR922 4DTV digital receiver, and if you're interested in HD you'll want a Motorola HDD200.

Here's an example of what c-band 4DTV has to offer.

http://img435.imageshack.us/img435/8436/cbandavailable9xj.jpg

*DirecTV and Dish Network websites 3/00
**Charts based on 4DTV Summer 99 Channel Listin. Some channels are in free preview mode.
Some Digital services may require an additional charge.

Not up to date, but this is the only site I know of with a comparison.

With a big dish you get a first generation signal. The small dish gets a second generation, more compressed signal. The difference is apparent on a large TV screen.

You never get rained out. I can watch TV through the hardest rain.

There is lots of free programming from sports, network and syndicated feeds, and with an FTA receiver added to the system you can get programming from all over the world, free.

It will cost a bit to get the electronics up to date and working if it hasn't been used in a while. That's the biggest downside, but nothing out there at this time as a better PQ then the big dish.

www.callnps.com is the best programming provider, and they have a nice deal going for a 4DTV receiver.

[caesar1]

A FIX IS IN THE WORKS FOR THIS! Spoke to two Panasonic engineers today.

They admitted that Panasonic had been too strict in their interpretation of the CableLabs specifications regarding cable cards.

CableLabs is the entity that develops these things in conjunction with the cable companies and TV manufacturers.

A corporate decision has now been made to fix this. They got the go ahead from corporate, from CableLabs and the engineers. (Us bugging them also brought this to a head).

There are now engineers in Japan, as I type this, working on the firmware fix. It will be at least a couple of weeks.

But once this firmware is available, digital audio out will NOT be disabled, regardless of the flags in the cable broadcast stream.

This applies to all of the 2005 models with cable cards. Apparently it did not effect the 2004 models with cable cards, since the designers of those models were less strict in their interpretation of the cable card specifications.

I will probably be among the first to get the "unofficial" fix for this direct from Panasonic (before it is officially made available world-wide). I will report back once I get it.

This was never a cable company issue (although many thought it was). This was strictly an issue with the TV set. Which hopefully will now be resolved in a matter of weeks.

[gannongolfer]

That's great news. I still have some time remaining to return my plasma and that is one of the issues that has been bothering me as I want to continue with CC. Thanks!

[optivity]

[QUOTE=caesar1]A FIX IS IN THE WORKS FOR THIS! Spoke to two Panasonic engineers today.

They admitted that Panasonic had been too strict in their interpretation of the CableLabs specifications regarding cable cards.

CableLabs is the entity that develops these things in conjunction with the cable companies and TV manufacturers.

A corporate decision has now been made to fix this. They got the go ahead from corporate, from CableLabs and the engineers. (Us bugging them also brought this to a head).

There are now engineers in Japan, as I type this, working on the firmware fix. It will be at least a couple of weeks.

But once this firmware is available, digital audio out will NOT be disabled, regardless of the flags in the cable broadcast stream.

This applies to all of the 2005 models with cable cards. Apparently it did not effect the 2004 models with cable cards, since the designers of those models were less strict in their interpretation of the cable card specifications.

I will probably be among the first to get the "unofficial" fix for this direct from Panasonic (before it is officially made available world-wide). I will report back once I get it.

This was never a cable company issue (although many thought it was). This was strictly an issue with the TV set. Which hopefully will now be resolved in a matter of weeks.[/QUOTE]"caesar1..."

you "da Man"

Thanks for your persistence and your participation in the AVS Forum. ;)

[caesar1]

Yesterday I received and installed the "test" version of the new firmware from Panasonic. The digital audio out issue (that applies only if you use a cable card) is now 100% fixed!

My firmware version before the install was 1.240. It is now version 1.241.

I even removed the analog cables from the back of the set to be doubly sure everything was working correctly audio-wise (in fact I could see the dolby digital light on my receiver on every channel now -- we are all digital in this Comcast area).

Took all of 5 minutes to do the firmware install.

Now if only they can get the public "final" version out there, everyone will be happy.

My guess is not till mid February. They hurried this "test" fix. But I got the impression they were not going to hurry the "final" release -- which will be incorporating multiple fixes (not just the digital audio out fix).

I do not know what else will be included in the public "final" firmware release. I do know, however, that the digital audio out fix works!

[CableTool]

[QUOTE=optivity]This is "bullshit!" I've observed Time Warner flipping their copy protection values back & forth for six months. A CCI byte value 0x02 means copy protection [color=red]may[/color] or [color=red]may not[/color] be enforced. The key with a CCI byte value of 0x02 is if an ECM (entitlement control message) is also passed...

CCI 0x02 + ECM detection = optical digital interface disabled

CCI 0x02 with no ECM's detected = optical digital interface enabled

These policies are enforced by your cable provider’s head end... nowhere else.

Panasonic builds DCR-TVs that adhere to the OCAP 1.0 spec, and their PDPs work as intended.[/QUOTE]

Not to get personal but Ive seen Optivity bash CableCARDS and MSO's interpitation of the the 5C's and more importantly Optivitys interpitation of how things work and who is repsonsible.. but time and time again... it appears quite the opposite.
I understand Op is unhappy with his service and has since downgraded everything.. but try to let others learn and work out issues without the doom and gloom of Optivitys skewed biased views of "how things work"

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=CableTool]Not to get personal but Ive seen Optivity bash CableCARDS and MSO's interpitation of the the 5C's and more importantly Optivitys interpitation of how things work and who is repsonsible.. but time and time again... it appears quite the opposite.
I understand Op is unhappy with his service and has since downgraded everything.. but try to let others learn and work out issues without the doom and gloom of Optivitys skewed biased views of "how things work"[/QUOTE]

Well to be fair, I and others were blaming the cable company for this (seemed logical at the time). Op wasn't the only one.

We were wrong though -- it was the TV set, not the cable companies.

I think though, most thought it was either the cable card or the cable company -- not the Panny TVs.

[CableTool]

I understand, but this isnt the only thread where Op spouted off numbers and equations and protocols and what SHOULD be according to HIM and at the cost of the evil MSO's only to have it turn out to be the opposite.
Post Count doesnt always equal Knowledge.
Even after presented with a "it appears to be pannys policy" Ops infinite wisdom shined again.
"BS! its 100% the cable company, no ifs and or buts you are being lied to and used!!" In so many words... ;)
I know this makes ME look silly.. but after rolling my eyes as a lurker for so long... thought Id speak up.
In any event I think its great that Panny owned up and more importantly had such a quick turn around.

[optivity]

Originally Posted by Cable[color=red]Tool[/color]

"Not to get personal but Ive seen Optivity bash CableCARDS and MSO's interpitation of the the 5C's and more importantly Optivitys interpitation of how things work and who is repsonsible.. but time and time again... it appears quite the opposite.
I understand Op is unhappy with his service and has since downgraded everything.. but try to let others learn and work out issues without the doom and gloom of Optivitys skewed biased views of "how things work"

Dude... try and understand where I was coming from... A $5000 TV, a $158 per month cable bill, no digital sound and lousy customer service from Time Warner and Panasonic... I "knew" right from the get-go the problem was related to some "copy protection" issue and come to find out Panasonic's customer service (not) reps were bullshitting me all along. I'm glad "caesar1" was able to get in touch with the "right" people and get the problem resolved. I've got no hard feelings. The good news for Time Warner is... when I get digital sound for all channels... I'll be picking up HBO & Showtime again. :p

[optivity]

[QUOTE=CableTool]In any event I think its great that Panny owned up and more importantly had such a quick turn around.[/QUOTE]If you can call something being fixed one-year after the product is released... "quick turn around" :rolleyes:

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=optivity]If you can call something being fixed one-year after the product is released... "quick turn around" :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

My impression is that Panasonic thought the units operated in accordance with the specs from CableLabs pertaining to cable cards. So they didn't think there was anything they could legally fix or that there was anything that needed fixing.

It wasn't until Panasonic recently received lots of complaints (which got to the right people) and spoke to people at CableLabs, that they realized they were interpreting the specs too strictly.

I believe CableLabs had to tell Panasonic -- frankly and directly -- you are just doing this wrong. And more so, had to probably give Panasonic something in writing saying that if they changed it, they were in accordance with the specs and they wouldn't be in legal jeopardy.

Until then, they probably thought that legally they had no choice but to leave the TVs as is. This is what the RIAA has wrought. Companies are now running scared of copy right violations and perhaps erring on the side of caution.

Then again, I could be wrong -- but that's sort of the impression I got. Particularly when the Comcast Engineer I contacted -- who also works with CableLabs, and was instrumental in working with the Panasonic design engineers to resolve this issue -- let me know, in crystal clear terms that:

these sets should not disable digital audio out under "ANY circumstances" (his emphasis).

By saying it like that, he gave me the impression that he had to lay it out just like that to Panasonic.

I also wonder though, how this got by CableLabs in the first place, as I thought they sort of certify this equipment -- or give some sort of approval.

[markrubin]

the point is the problem finally got fixed thanks to the persistence of forum members

It is tough to get giants like a cableco and Panasonic to recognize and fix a problem but that is just what happened here :)

[CableTool]

[QUOTE=caesar1]

I also wonder though, how this got by CableLabs in the first place, as I thought they sort of certify this equipment -- or give some sort of approval.[/QUOTE]

It isnt required that they get CableLabs certification but it goes a long way in getting ahead of issues and gaining some confidence from consumers and vendors.

A large issue with a lot of the issues with CableCARDS can probalby be traced back to self certification. ( which obviously is based on an interpitation of required specs ) :(

[larrybed4]

I have a case number with Panasonic on this audio issue and the TVGOS problem, anyone received anything from Panasonic yet? Called a few times about it but seems they are in no rush to get the updates out.

[jspirate]

This post is not aimed at any individual.

Sorry for sounding crass, but you people need to wake up. You are living in a pipe dream if you think that relatively new features/devices will work when there are no standards/consensus on what is fed across the cable lines. It simple, there are numerous key players all with individual agendas. If you decide to roll the dice to partake in such development, then you also have to be willing to deal with the bull$hit that comes with it. At least at this stage of the game.

The cable card issue is no where near resolution. You can blame your TV manufacturer, your cable provider, the FCC or all three of them, but don't leave yourself off that list.

Flame away... I know my poor attitude is offensive, but its no worse than the whining on this subject :rolleyes:

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=larrybed4]I have a case number with Panasonic on this audio issue and the TVGOS problem, anyone received anything from Panasonic yet? Called a few times about it but seems they are in no rush to get the updates out.[/QUOTE]


I was informed by Panasonic that the official release of the firmware containing the digital audio out fix (relating to using a cable card), will be on February 13, 2006. By that, Panasonic means released to its "service company".

Unfortunately, my contact did not believe it would be available for download. He said this is how to get it:

"customers should be able to call Panasonic Service at 1-888-VIEWPTV to request an upgrade sometime after [February 13th]."

So unless he is wrong about the download, those who want this firmware will have to call Panasonic and ask for the SD card to be sent to them.

I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually shows up on the firmware download site though.

Note that this firmware is supposed to incorporate fixes in addition to the "digital audio out with cablecard fix" -- however, I do not know what else is being incorporated.

For more information -- see this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7083015&&#post7083015

[mlb585]

Hi Guys, I have a Panny 42px50u with the same problem. I don't have an SD card slot....how does/will the fix work for me? Will I have to call Panasonic for service after Feb 13th or is there another way to do the fix??

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=mlb585]Hi Guys, I have a Panny 42px50u with the same problem. I don't have an SD card slot....how does/will the fix work for me? Will I have to call Panasonic for service after Feb 13th or is there another way to do the fix??[/QUOTE]

All xxpx50u models have the SD slot (its behind the cable card slot). Here are the instructions for firmware updates:

http://www.pasctraining.panasonic.com/SpecialApplications/ProductFirmwareDownloads/Firmware/PDP/PX50/PX50_Installation_Guide.pdf

And here is the page showing these instructions apply to 37, 42 and 50px50u models.

http://www.pasctraining.panasonic.com/SpecialApplications/ProductFirmwareDownloads/downloads1.asp

It appears that the "SD" slot is kind of a secret on these models, because it is not enabled for photo viewing (the only use appears to be for firmware updates). Although I sort of wonder what would happen if you put an SD card in the slot that had pictures on it (I dont' have an SD card to test this).

It may be that they "turned off" that feature on these models (viewing photos via the SD card slot), to further differentiate it from the "500u" models.

But the slot is there nonetheless.

[larrybed4]

Thank you Caesar1!

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=caesar1]I was informed by Panasonic that the official release of the firmware containing the digital audio out fix (relating to using a cable card), will be on February 13, 2006. By that, Panasonic means released to its "service company".

Unfortunately, my contact did not believe it would be available for download. He said this is how to get it:

"customers should be able to call Panasonic Service at 1-888-VIEWPTV to request an upgrade sometime after [February 13th]."

So unless he is wrong about the download, those who want this firmware will have to call Panasonic and ask for the SD card to be sent to them.

I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually shows up on the firmware download site though.

Note that this firmware is supposed to incorporate fixes in addition to the "digital audio out with cablecard fix" -- however, I do not know what else is being incorporated.

For more information -- see this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7083015&&#post7083015[/QUOTE]

This release has been delayed to allow full completion of testing. It will be at least another week before it is released.

[theCableGuy]

In defense of Op, he made valid claims although in the end it was ultimately Panasonic that was the culprit. Personally I enjoy engaging in these types of discussions because until a problem is identified and a corrective solution is enacted everything should be open for discussion. It is through these discussions that we can identify issues and find answers. Although Op may have come across as harsh against the company I work for, and I tried indicating in the other forum, I had questioned Panasonic based on his issue and the response I got was their explanation. In the end it turns out that what information I got turned out to be exactly what has been the solution to the problem. Panasonic had to update their sofware to address the issue. Everybody that goes out and pays primo $'s for their equipment, does so expecting that they work as described, and when they don't work I understand the frustration when answers are vague, and fingers start pointing. The hardest part, IMHO, is when people look to the cable providers for answers when the manufacturer should be the one addressing these issues...after all they made the product. It's very hard keeping track of every major manufacturer of televisions problems, aside from keeping up with the day to day activities of our own equipment. In the end, communication between all three parties involved finally got a solution. The customer has an obligation to know his product, the manufacturer has a responsibility to identify problems and correct operating issues within their sets, and the cable providers need to do a better job of identifying problems that are cable related.

I would like to say that although cable guys usually get a bad rap, for the most part people don't complain for no reason, this just happened to an issue that wound up vindicating the cable side of things. I never take anything personal, it's business, if a customer is upset about something finding an answer is the key to keeping them in good grace. Op brought an issue to the table, the topic was debated and in the end everybody benefits from this discussion. If these forums didn't exist, or if people weren't allowed to post the problems they've had, where would be all be then?

Ya'll keep the faith!

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=theCableGuy] this just happened to [be] an issue that wound up vindicating the cable side of things. [/QUOTE]


Sort of -- but not entirely. CableLabs is really the entire cable industry. They got together and formed CableLabs (indeed, the board members of CableLabs include various executives from ALL of the big cable companies). Including the Chairman and CEO of Time Warner:

http://www.cablelabs.com/about/board/

"Founded in 1988 by members of the cable television industry, Cable Television Laboratories, Inc. (CableLabs®) is a nonprofit research and development consortium that is dedicated to pursuing new cable telecommunications technologies and to helping its cable operator members integrate those technical advancements into their business objectives.

CableLabs benefits the cable television industry and consumers by:
enabling interoperability among different cable systems;
facilitating retail availability of cable modems and advanced services; and
helping cable operators deploy innovative broadband technologies.
CableLabs is funded by the monthly subscription fees paid by members as well as by testing-related fees. Cable operators from around the world are eligible to become members."


CableLabs came up with the specifications for CableCards and does certify manufacturers products in that regard (including Panasonic):

http://www.cablelabs.com/news/newsletter/SPECS/JulAug_2003/


[COLOR=Red]
The four new DTV manufacturers join Hitachi, LG Electronics, and Sony that were previously verified under the JTS, and [COLOR=Blue]Panasonic [/COLOR] and Samsung that were previously certified under CableLabs’ “OpenCable™” testing program. [/COLOR]


http://www.cablelabs.com/news/pr/2004/04_pr_oc_verification_061004.html

Clearly the manufacturers and CableLabs (i.e, the cable companies) need to work closer together to make sure that specifications are followed correctly to avoid this happening in the future.

So I'm not letting the cable companies (and their child called Cablelabs), entirely off the hook. They share some blame -- albeit less than Panasonic.

[kmarsh]

When I was looking into this a few months ago, somewhere on their website I found CableLabs' sample test procedure document for verifying CableCard compliance. I think the section on copy protection was pretty weak.

From what I recall, there are 4 values for the digital audio copy protection flag:
1. - unprotected (always allows passthrough)
2. - allow 1 copy (allows passthrough and change the flag "allow no more copies" so that the next device will now allow passthrough)
3. - no more copies allowed (the flag value after passthrough when the flag was previously "allow 1 copy")
4. allow no copies (don't passthrough)

Their test procedure called for you to hook up a compliant audio device to the TV's digital audio output (e.g. a receiver) and test that this SECOND device only passes the digital signal back OUT if the originating signal into the TV's CableCard has a flag value of "unprotected" (scenario 1, above). Seems to me that this would test scenarios 1 and 4, but will not test whether the TV is performing scenarios 2 and 3 properly. In the case of the Panasonic, it's apparently not.

I also find it interesting that, according to Caesar1's conversations with Panasonic (thanks again for making progress on this!), they've decided to just ALWAYS pass out the digital audio signal... regardless of the copy protection flags. It almost seems like they're saying, "ah screw it, we can't figure this out, let's just forget it". Fine by me, though.

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=kmarsh]

I also find it interesting that, according to Caesar1's conversations with Panasonic (thanks again for making progress on this!), they've decided to just ALWAYS pass out the digital audio signal... regardless of the copy protection flags. It almost seems like they're saying, "ah screw it, we can't figure this out, let's just forget it". Fine by me, though.[/QUOTE]

I think they were told this by CableLabs though -- i.e, that digital audio out should not be disabled under ANY circumstances.

In fact, the person who told me that [it shouldn't be disabled] held (or holds) this position:

"Vice President of Digital Engineering at Comcast Cable Communications, and member of both the verification and certification boards responsible for reviewing test results for digital cable-ready products. “

[martyj19]

[QUOTE=kmarsh]they've decided to just ALWAYS pass out the digital audio signal... regardless of the copy protection flags. It almost seems like they're saying, "ah screw it, we can't figure this out, let's just forget it". Fine by me, though.[/QUOTE]

It wouldn't be correct to disable the digital audio for a Copy Never or Copy No More stream received by the display. You would then be unable to hear audio for such a program even though it was displayed. If you were talking about a connection to a digital recorder over FireWire, then it would be correct to disable the output.

[kmarsh]

[QUOTE=martyj19]It wouldn't be correct to disable the digital audio for a Copy Never or Copy No More stream received by the display. You would then be unable to hear audio for such a program even though it was displayed. If you were talking about a connection to a digital recorder over FireWire, then it would be correct to disable the output.[/QUOTE]

Disable Digital Audio OUT from the TV... not disable audio... for Copy Never or Copy No More, the TV could still play the audio... which I believe it the intent of these options.

[martyj19]

[QUOTE=kmarsh]Disable Digital Audio OUT from the TV... not disable audio... for Copy Never or Copy No More, the TV could still play the audio... which I believe it the intent of these options.[/QUOTE]

Were the TV to disable digital audio out, you would be unable to hear DD5.1 content. Which is an integral part of ATSC. You would be able only to hear audio as reproduced by the TV's speakers. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the intent of these options.

[kmarsh]

[QUOTE=martyj19]Were the TV to disable digital audio out, you would be unable to hear DD5.1 content. Which is an integral part of ATSC. You would be able only to hear audio as reproduced by the TV's speakers. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the intent of these options.[/QUOTE]

Not disagreeing, just trying to make sense out of the specifications. How would YOU interprete those 4 codes?

[martyj19]

[QUOTE=kmarsh]Not disagreeing, just trying to make sense out of the specifications. How would YOU interprete those 4 codes?[/QUOTE]

I would interpret them as strictly as you are suggesting over a digital output that included video, such as a FireWire connection to a recorder that can authenticate itself as a DTCP sink. Such an output should not receive Copy Never or Copy No More data. It should receive Copy Freely and Copy Once data (and if it records that, it must change the recording to Copy No More.) A device that cannot authenticate itself must not receive digital output. By virtue of authenticating itself it promises to honor the copy control.

The issue with the audio is that the consumer does not receive the benefit of the DD5.1 audio unless it is passed to a device that can reproduce it, such as a DD receiver. Since the digital audio connection by its nature cannot carry video, the video is not compromised. The TV itself is unable to properly reproduce the audio. In this scenario the TV is doing nothing more than a cable box will already do, which is pass the video out over its HDCP protected digital video output and the audio out over its digital audio output.

[kmarsh]

[QUOTE=martyj19]I would interpret them as strictly as you are suggesting over a digital output that included video, such as a FireWire connection to a recorder that can authenticate itself as a DTCP sink. Such an output should not receive Copy Never or Copy No More data. It should receive Copy Freely and Copy Once data (and if it records that, it must change the recording to Copy No More.) A device that cannot authenticate itself must not receive digital output. By virtue of authenticating itself it promises to honor the copy control.

The issue with the audio is that the consumer does not receive the benefit of the DD5.1 audio unless it is passed to a device that can reproduce it, such as a DD receiver. Since the digital audio connection by its nature cannot carry video, the video is not compromised. The TV itself is unable to properly reproduce the audio. In this scenario the TV is doing nothing more than a cable box will already do, which is pass the video out over its HDCP protected digital video output and the audio out over its digital audio output.[/QUOTE]

OK, I'll buy that. Seems like you know a bit more about this copy protection than I've been able figure out from the specs. ;-) So, what is the key driving factor on whether the device receiving a protected digital audio signal should be able to pass it on if it received it with a "Copy Never" flag? In the case of the TV (talking about the digital audio out for now, leaving video aside), is it the fact that the TV cannot properly present the data so it shouldn't "count"? ... or is it because the TV cannot record, so it should be able to pass it on? Both of those would make practical/logical sense. I know none of this really matters since Panasonic is going to fix the problem, but I'm interested in how it's supposed to be working.

[caesar1]

Just received an update.

The firmware has now been released to Panasonic's service company.

"Sw v1.25 is for model numbers TH-**PX50U (37/42/50) and v1.63 is for model numbers TH-**PX500U (42/50). These codes should be available from the Panasonic [software] download website in a few days. "

This firmware will "allow the digital optical output regardless of the CCI value of the program content."

[caesar1]

NEW FIRMWARE IS HERE!!!! Download away.

http://www.pasctraining.panasonic.com/SpecialApplications/ProductFirmwareDownloads/downloads1.asp

[trekguy]

[QUOTE=caesar1]NEW FIRMWARE IS HERE!!!! Download away.

http://www.pasctraining.panasonic.com/SpecialApplications/ProductFirmwareDownloads/downloads1.asp[/QUOTE]

I posted in Bruzzi's sticky before I saw this, so forgive the dual posting. Has anyone actually done this upgrade. Did it work? Were there probems? Did it, as sometimes happens, fix one thing but break another?

The instructions on the website seem clear, and I've flashed many a bios with worse instructions, but I am concerned that some less than well engineered equipment can be very fussy about flash upgrades.

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=trekguy]I posted in Bruzzi's sticky before I saw this, so forgive the dual posting. Has anyone actually done this upgrade. Did it work? Were there probems? Did it, as sometimes happens, fix one thing but break another?

The instructions on the website seem clear, and I've flashed many a bios with worse instructions, but I am concerned that some less than well engineered equipment can be very fussy about flash upgrades.[/QUOTE]

Its been done by several people on this forum already. No one has had any issues. It did work to fix the problem.

I installed a test version of this firmware -- and had no issues.

I think as long as you follow the instructions you will be fine. Check out this thread for reports of people who installed this firmware:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=605490&page=6&pp=30&highlight=caesar1

Are you actually experiencing this issue -- ie., using a cable card and connecting the plasma to an A/V receiver via digital audio out?

[Cameron203]

I don't seem to be able to locate the firmware upgrade for the LCD projections. Panasonics website has a old firmware upgrade from 2005. But I also have the problem with the digital audio won't pass through with the cable card. If anyone can direct me to the firmware upgrade for the Panasonic LCD projection model PT-52LCX65 that would be great thanks

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=Cameron203]I don't seem to be able to locate the firmware upgrade for the LCD projections. Panasonics website has a old firmware upgrade from 2005. But I also have the problem with the digital audio won't pass through with the cable card. If anyone can direct me to the firmware upgrade for the Panasonic LCD projection model PT-52LCX65 that would be great thanks[/QUOTE]

I would call Panasonic support. I believe that there was a firmware release for the LCD models at the same time as the plasmas (to also fix the digital audio out). However, for some reason the firmware for the LCDs does not appear on the website.

The email I received from my Panasonic contact specifically mentioned LCD models in addition to the plasmas. So call Panasonic support to find out what's up.

[optivity]

[QUOTE=trekguy]I posted in Bruzzi's sticky before I saw this, so forgive the dual posting. Has anyone actually done this upgrade. Did it work? Were there probems? Did it, as sometimes happens, fix one thing but break another?

The instructions on the website seem clear, and I've flashed many a bios with worse instructions, but I am concerned that some less than well engineered equipment can be very fussy about flash upgrades.[/QUOTE]trekguy... I upgraded the firmware for my PX50U which resolved an optical digital audio out problem to my Onkyo 6.1 channel receiver while subscribing to Time Warner Digital Cable w/CableCARD.

before:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/1.240.JPG

and after:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/1.250.JPG

[lipcrkr]

Hail Caesar!!

[thegoldenhand]

Wow this is great news! Now if I can only find my SD card somewhere here at home... It's interesting that the PX50U models indeed have that SD card slot behind the CC slot. Anyone tried putting an SD card with pictures in it?

Thanks Caesar!

[optivity]

[QUOTE=lipcrkr]Hail Caesar!![/QUOTE]Poor Caesar... he may regret these accolades when he remembers what became of "Emperor Augustus Caesar!" :eek:

[size=1]same name… bigger forum…[/size] :D

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=optivity]Poor Caesar... he may regret these accolades when he remembers what became of "Emperor Augustus Caesar!" :eek:

[size=1]same name… bigger forum…[/size] :D[/QUOTE]

Well, its too late for the Caesar my screen name comes from.

Our dog, Caesar, was euthanized about a month ago (10 years old -- cancer). Here he is, in his prime:


http://ericbeth.home.comcast.net/iceNsnow.jpg

[optivity]

[QUOTE=caesar1]Well, its too late for the Caesar my screen name comes from.

Our dog, Caesar, was euthanized about a month ago (10 years old -- cancer). Here he is, in his prime:


http://ericbeth.home.comcast.net/iceNsnow.jpg[/QUOTE]He was a beautiful dog & my condolences for your loss. I had to put down a beloved cat of 14 years last June. I discovered the best therapy to heal the loss of my pet was to get another and now I have two kittens that seem to enjoy watching what's on my PDP! Maybe one day you’ll provide a home for another dog too.

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=optivity]He was a beautiful dog & my condolences for your loss. I had to put down a beloved cat of 14 years last June. I discovered the best therapy to heal the loss of my pet was to get another and now I have two kittens that seem to enjoy watching what's on my PDP! Maybe one day you’ll provide a home for another dog too.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. We will definitely get another Bernese Mountain Dog. Hopefully this summer.

[optivity]

My wife... who thinks I'm a geek for spending so much time in this forum... got a look at your pet and said "Wow, what a beautiful dog!" As I post this message one of my kittens is on my lap... purr... :)

[trekguy]

[QUOTE=optivity]trekguy... I upgraded the firmware for my PX50U which resolved an optical digital audio out problem to my Onkyo 6.1 channel receiver while subscribing to Time Warner Digital Cable w/CableCARD.

[/QUOTE]
Thanks, optivity. I've downloaded the update and am scrounging an SD card.

Also public thanks to Cesar1 for his response.

[Cameron203]

I have a PT-52LCX65 and I am experiencing the exact same problem, does anyone know where I can get a firmware update for it. THanks.

[optivity]

[QUOTE=Cameron203]I have a PT-52LCX65 and I am experiencing the exact same problem, does anyone know where I can get a firmware update for it. THanks.[/QUOTE]The model number for your display is listed on Panasonic's Firmware Downloads (http://www.pasctraining.panasonic.com/SpecialApplications/ProductFirmwareDownloads/downloads1.asp) site. Scroll down to the bottom. You will need an SD memory card formatted using Panasonic's "SD-Card Formatter" utility. A link to this utility is at the top of their Firmware Downloads site. Once formatted, be sure to download the SDDL.SEC image (version 1.450) directly to the SD memory card by right-clicking the mouse button and select the "save target as..." option to specify the SD memory card's drive destination.

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=Cameron203]I have a PT-52LCX65 and I am experiencing the exact same problem, does anyone know where I can get a firmware update for it. THanks.[/QUOTE]


PT-44LCX65
PT-52LCX65
PT-61-LCX65

(Original firmware version 1.40) SDDL.SEC (3.3MB)
Digital Tuner Firmware

Caution: Other files with the same name may appear on this page, but are designed for different models. Problems and/or damage will occur if the firmware is used on the wrong model. 1.450 7/5/2006 Allows the Optical Output jack to pass digital content regardless of the CCI value of the program.


http://www.pasctraining.panasonic.com/SpecialApplications/ProductFirmwareDownloads/downloads1.asp

http://www.pasctraining.panasonic.com/SpecialApplications/ProductFirmwareDownloads/Firmware/LCD-PTV/LCX65_15/V1450/SDDL.SEC

[Cameron203]

Thank you guys so very much it worked like a charm, I finally get HD in my bedroom with dolby.

[Elemental1]

Too bad this did not fix the DD 5.1 passthrough from HDMI issue. :mad:

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=Elemental1]Too bad this did not fix the DD 5.1 passthrough from HDMI issue. :mad:[/QUOTE]

What do you mean? I use DVD with HDMI to my plasma. Works fine.

If you are talking about from your cable box -- I think there is an issue with some cable boxes and HDMI.

[Elemental1]

[QUOTE=caesar1]What do you mean? I use DVD with HDMI to my plasma. Works fine.

If you are talking about from your cable box -- I think there is an issue with some cable boxes and HDMI.[/QUOTE]

Yes, since the flash it will pass PCM DD Prologic II but NOT DD 5.1. I have a 500u + cablecard, BTW.
I am talking DvD via HDMI.

Edit: In another thread, even an LG can do it properly. :eek:

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=Elemental1]Yes, since the flash it will pass PCM DD Prologic II but NOT DD 5.1. I have a 500u + cablecard, BTW.
I am talking DvD via HDMI.

Edit: In another thread, even an LG can do it properly. :eek:[/QUOTE]


Maybe you have a bad flash. Try a re-flash. Make sure you have the latest firmware.

I have a 50u (very similar to the 500u) and cable card, and it works fine (after the firmware update). I'm running HDMI from my DVD player directly to the 50u.

[Elemental1]

[QUOTE=caesar1]Maybe you have a bad flash. Try a re-flash. Make sure you have the latest firmware.

I have a 50u (very similar to the 500u) and cable card, and it works fine (after the firmware update). I'm running HDMI from my DVD player directly to the 50u.[/QUOTE]

So your receiver actually is showing DD 5.1? No PCM? Have you verified this for sure?
Before I flashed to the latest firmware, it didn't pass ANY audio. :(

[caesar1]

[QUOTE=Elemental1]So your receiver actually is showing DD 5.1? No PCM? Have you verified this for sure?
Before I flashed to the latest firmware, it didn't pass ANY audio. :([/QUOTE]


Yes. DD 3.2 /1 is what is shows on the receiver. It did not show this before upgrading from the original firmware.

If you didn't pass any audio before, there must be other issues. Make sure your DVD player is outputting bitstream. Usually there is some audio configuration in your DVD player's setup menu. I suspect that is where your problem lies now.

[Elemental1]

[QUOTE=caesar1]Yes. DD 3.2 /1 is what is shows on the receiver. It did not show this before upgrading from the original firmware.

If you didn't pass any audio before, there must be other issues. Make sure your DVD player is outputting bitstream. Usually there is some audio configuration in your DVD player's setup menu. I suspect that is where your problem lies now.[/QUOTE]

It is possible it might be the DvD player. When I run a multchannel speaker test, it does not work properly on either TosLink output.
I am getting true DD 5.1 for sure though on the one Toslink and the receiver shows it.
Not sure why the audio test does not work properly so I can't rely on it as being accurate for the TV side.

Edit: OK, all I had to do was cycle through the input assignments on my Onkyo receiver and now it works. It was set to the right one but I guess it needed to re-check after flashing the TV firmware, go figure.
Thanks Caesar1. :cool:

[amesdp]

So just to confirm, the DD 5.1 pass-through from HDMI to TV optical out does work after the firmware upgrade?

[Elemental1]

[QUOTE=amesdp]So just to confirm, the DD 5.1 pass-through from HDMI to TV optical out does work after the firmware upgrade?[/QUOTE]

Yes it does.
I am not really sure if it was me cycling through the inputs but while switching between the two sources, it started working.
Why it would stick on DD ProLogic IIx is weird.

Edit: I did reset the DvD player to defaults and maybe that was the key here.

[optivity]

[QUOTE=amesdp]So just to confirm, the DD 5.1 pass-through from HDMI to TV optical out does work after the firmware upgrade?[/QUOTE]Why use the TVs digital sound out interface with an STB?

[amesdp]

[QUOTE=optivity]Why use the TVs digital sound out interface with an STB?[/QUOTE]

Minimize the number of cables. If you're running HDMI cables carrying digital video and audio from STB and DVD player to the TV, you can run a single optical cable from the TV to the receiver instead of two separate cables from the STB and the DVD player.

[optivity]

How do you handle playing a digital music channel from the STB to HT sound system without leaving your PDP on?

[Elemental1]

Hey....that sounds like a perfect test for IR and burn in.
Ok, who's up for it? :p

[Elemental1]

Well....I am still having an issue with DD 5.1 passthrough from the HDMI (DvD).
I did have it working but again, it is back to DD PrologicII. :confused:
I did get it working the other day. HDMI cable is not loose and the Toslink from the TV is secure also.
I know for sure that the Toslink from TV to receiver is ok as it works with the tuner just fine. Could it be a HDMI vs Toslink issue on my DvD?
Something is rotten in Denmark I say. :eek: