Phosper Decay - Smearing/Ghosting/Trailing/Streaking on CRT?

[nelmr]

What I mean is if there is a scene with alot of black in the background and white in the forground on my new Sony KV-30HS420 tv I notice that when the forground moves it smears a little on the screen. This is noticable during movies but espcielly the case with text on the screen. If you have ever watched the Oceans 11 movie recently the credits come from the side and move to the other side of the screen one at a time and as they do there is a trailing like effect.

This is also noticble with street lights, city lights, and such in movies when cars are driving at night. It isn't a big deal to me but is a little noticable. I thought LCDs had smear problems but didn't know CRTs did to under certain circumstances.

Has anyone else noticed this? I love my new tv and only have this and the fact I can't change screen modes with HD signals (only 480i/p).

The smear effect I notice by the way probably isn't smearing. It is more like the TV has a memory for 0.1-0.5 seconds of super bright things moving on the screen when there is a dark back ground. As the super bright are moves where it previously was has a faint ghost that goes from medium to dim to nothing in this 0.1-0.5 secon time. This makes it appear to smear, trail, or whatever you want to call it. I have only just started to notice this. It isn't that big a deal and is only noticable with a bright moving subject on a dark background.

Is this normal?

I have calibrated the tv with the S&V disc
Setting Pro
Contrast around 40%
Brightness around 53%
Sharpness around 35%
Color around 47%
Tint around 51%

Thanks

[Q of BanditZ]

Your sharpness is way too high. Take it down to about 15-20.

Pro, Monitor all the way (if you have those choices.)

Color is probably too high. I don't go by percentage, I go by the actual point value that you see on the menu. I think that's what you're using as well, but you're calling it percent.

If that's the case, your color is too high. Take it down into the low to mid 30's. Contrast down to about 35. Brightness...45 tops.

Try either a warm or neutral settings for the colors. (I think your TV has that choice.)

See what that looks like.

Turn off anything like Edge Enhancement, VM, or whatever it's called. Any extra things like that should be turned off.

[nelmr]

I am guessing with the precentage. I am not counting the actual stops or points. If it takes 30 points (or what ever) to be halfway i am saying this is 50%.

I've calibrated this tv with the S&V home theather tune up (like AVIA and even has some of it's test signals).

I don't have white blooming/black crush problems. Colors are as acuarate as I can get them in the user menus. I do not think this is a problem with the settings.

[Q of BanditZ]

[QUOTE=nelmr]I am guessing with the precentage. I am not counting the actual stops or points. If it takes 30 points to be halfway i am saying this is 50%.[/QUOTE]

Ok, at that rate, if you used a calibraiton disc, you should be fairly close to the mark.

I'd say gradually reduce a few of those settings I indicated and see what's what.

[mcs921]

My Samsung HDTV CRT does the same thing. From what I have read on the internet, the smearing that you are speaking of is in fact normal for CRT's. Even my old tube CRT does it too. I notice it mostly when playing dark videogames such as Doom 3 or Quake 4. Don't stress, your not alone.

[Gecko85]

[QUOTE=Q of BanditZ]Your sharpness is way too high. Take it down to about 15-20. [/QUOTE]

Personally, I like sharpness set all the way to 0 (the lowest possible setting.) It's artificial "enhancement", and in my opinion makes the PQ worse, particularly on HD content or component DVD.

[Q of BanditZ]

[QUOTE=mcs921]My Samsung HDTV CRT does the same thing. From what I have read on the internet, the smearing that you are speaking of is in fact normal for CRT's. Even my old tube CRT does it too. I notice it mostly when playing dark videogames such as Doom 3 or Quake 4. Don't stress, your not alone.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I'm not sure it applies to all CRT's, but...this is something to be aware of.

*knocks on wood* I haven't seen anything like this on mine before.

[Gecko85]

[QUOTE=mcs921]My Samsung HDTV CRT does the same thing. From what I have read on the internet, the smearing that you are speaking of is in fact normal for CRT's. Even my old tube CRT does it too. I notice it mostly when playing dark videogames such as Doom 3 or Quake 4. Don't stress, your not alone.[/QUOTE]

I've never seen that on any CRT, and have never read anywhere that it's normal for CRT's. I'm curious, though...could you post some links to where you read that?

You mention "even my old tube CRT..." What do you mean by that? Are you saying your current CRT isn't a "tube"? Just curious...

[mcs921]

[QUOTE=Gecko85]I've never seen that on any CRT, and have never read anywhere that it's normal for CRT's. I'm curious, though...could you post some links to where you read that?

You mention "even my old tube CRT..." What do you mean by that? Are you saying your current CRT isn't a "tube"? Just curious...[/QUOTE]

I meant my non-HDTV tube CRT. I'll look for the link and repost when I find it.

[nelmr]

[QUOTE=Gecko85]I've never seen that on any CRT, and have never read anywhere that it's normal for CRT's. I'm curious, though...could you post some links to where you read that?

You mention "even my old tube CRT..." What do you mean by that? Are you saying your current CRT isn't a "tube"? Just curious...[/QUOTE]

I even remember some web-azine site saying verifying my tv has this problem (but that some toshiba didn't). I've been searching all day for were I read that and haven't found it.

I know it wasn't at the following:
Soundandvisionmag.com
hometheatermag.com
UltimateAV.com
AVguide.com

I don't know where else to look.

[Gecko85]

[QUOTE=mcs921]I meant my non-HDTV tube CRT. I'll look for the link and repost when I find it.[/QUOTE]

Got it...makes sense now.

[mcs921]

Alright guys, it turns out that the information I was reading on the internet was right here in this very forum, lol. Here are the links, hope this helps you.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=531362&highlight=trailing

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558572&highlight=trailing

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=599482&highlight=trailing

The second link has the most information but I suggest you check out all three.

[mcs921]

This quote was taken from the second link by KenTech,

"When photons or electrons strike a phosphor, it converts that energy to light according to the atomic principles that apply to that particular compound. But if the source of excitation is suddenly cut off, the emission of light continues but dies away, exponentially I think. The persistence, in milliseconds, is specified as the time it takes for the emitted light to reach some percentage of its original intensity. The designer of a television CRT wants a persistence that complements the refresh rate for the display, so flicker isn't perceived when staring at the screen. No problem.

BUT . . . with certain program material, your eye may *follow* the bright object instead of remaining aligned to a point on the screen. The appearance is one of light "trails" following a moving bright object, especially if the surrounding area is very dark. Your eye is drifting away from the phosphor dots that *were* illuminated by the beam, and those dots are continuing to glow as your eye moves. I should think the worst case is with games, where you are following a moving visual target of some sort that is sharply-defined against a dark background -- part of the game, no? But a rare situation when watching an ordinary movie or broadcast. Further, if you sit a ways back, you tend to look at the screen as a whole and fix on it. As you get close, especially with HD, you tend to follow the action. Flat-panel LCDs have this type of problem, too, for different reasons.

No amount of electronic manipulation, "calibration," focusing, or modulation of that electron beam can mitigate this effect; it's an atomic effect in the phosphor compounds thenselves. Shut off the excitation; they continue to glow. If you were a researcher building a custom project, you could, I suppose, choose a CRT that has shorter persistence, part of its specification. (Your special "gaming" display!) When you buy a TV, you don't get that choice.

Medium room lighting, sitting further back, maybe reducing the Picture setting on the TV -- all will help you not see the trails. But they're still there."

[Gecko85]

[QUOTE=mcs921]
Medium room lighting, sitting further back, maybe reducing the Picture setting on the TV -- all will help you not see the trails. But they're still there."[/QUOTE]

Must be why I've never seen it...I generally have medium room lighting, the Picture setting is properly calibrated (which is reduced from the preset), and I sit 9-10 feet away.

[nelmr]

Thanks guys for these very informative posts!

[Jaded]

woot! thanks from me also. i have the exact same "problem".

[hywdx80]

Same prob with my xbr 960. I thought ghosting was an lcd issue :(

[mdtiberi]

[QUOTE=mcs921]The persistence, in milliseconds, is specified as the time it takes for the emitted light to reach some percentage of its original intensity. The designer of a television CRT wants a persistence that complements the refresh [/QUOTE]

That is not quite correct and my be a bit misleading. Phosphor decay rates are in the microseconds (10^-6) not milliseconds (10^-3). Furthermore the light drops rather rapidly so within these few microseconds the light is only about 1% to 10% from its peak power. I do not believe that the so-called trails folks are seeing are from the phosphors. I haven't read every post thoughly but I get the impression that this problem manifests itself during gaming. I suspect there is something else going on that is causing this effect.

[nelmr]

[QUOTE=mdtiberi]That is not quite correct and my be a bit misleading. Phosphor decay rates are in the microseconds (10^-6) not milliseconds (10^-3). Furthermore the light drops rather rapidly so within these few microseconds the light is only about 1% to 10% from its peak power. I do not believe that the so-called trails folks are seeing are from the phosphors. I haven't read every post thoughly but I get the impression that this problem manifests itself during gaming. I suspect there is something else going on that is causing this effect.[/QUOTE]

I noticed it last night while gamming (Star wars battlefront 2 xbox) but that was because I was looking for it. Otherwise it isn't a big deal. It is more noticable with dark movies such as cinarella man, batman, 2 fast too furious, etc.

[bunibesar]

I think this is one of the bad thing from CRT TUBE technology.

I always see this problem with any CRT on the market.
Althought sometimes it's harder to see this problem on some TV, but if you watch it carefully you can always see this problem.

For me, it's not 100% fosfor, but it is related to fosfor.

Every technology have it's own advantages and disadvantages.

[mdtiberi]

I agree with Gecko85, this so-salled smearing/trails is not normal CRT operation. It is not inherent to CRT technology. I have a Sony 34HS420 and have no such problem.

nelmr let me ask a few questions if I may. Does the trailing you see have a direction to it? In otherwords, to you see more from side-to-side versus up and down?