Adjusting Overscan

[Nakai]

I've decided to try and correct a small overscan issue with my Sony 30HS420 that is mainly showing up when playing 360 games. The right side of the screen is slightly chopped off which cuts out certain aspects of the HUD on some games.

I was just in the service menu now playing around with the HSIZ , HPOS and HCNT but I didn't save anything.

When I adjust the horizontal values do I also need to adjust the vertical values to keep the aspect ratios correct or can I freely change the horizontal ones and not even touch the vertical and have it be fine?

Also If I do need to adjust both to keep the aspect ratios correct is there a simple ratio I can use like +/- 3 horizontal = +/- 1 vertical?

[Jaded]

i would like to know this too as my 30HS420 has the same problem with X360. off topic: how are you liking the set? how does the 360 look on it for you?

[DSperber]

[QUOTE=Nakai]When I adjust the horizontal values do I also need to adjust the vertical values to keep the aspect ratios correct or can I freely change the horizontal ones and not even touch the vertical and have it be fine? Also If I do need to adjust both to keep the aspect ratios correct is there a simple ratio I can use like +/- 3 horizontal = +/- 1 vertical?[/QUOTE]Discussion of overscan adjustment on the Sony sets, and the 34XBR960 in particular although I believe the approach would be similar for the whole family of sets which share the same service menu user-interface, can be found in several other threads but specifically you can find it here: Overscan adjustments on Sony sets (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6615783&&#post6615783)

At the bottom of that article, there is a further link to the original post which described how to actually proceed inside the service menu to deal with this aspect of geometry.

Obviously, you must have a reasonable stationary 16:9 test pattern displayed on your secreen when you're doing this adjustment for 16:9 overscan... either from Avia or DVE if you have them, or using a proper test pattern displayed from your PC to your HDTV if you have the ability to connect them. A perfect test pattern for this purpose (as well as for adjusting convergence throughout 100% of the screen) is attached (it's been posted before, throughout this forum, but I'll do it again here for your convenience).

Since your screen is 16:9, if you ensure that the 16:9 test pattern is displayed so that the edges of the rectangle in the pattern are uniformly visible around the edges of your screen, you will by definition be producing the proper 16:9 aspect ratio. If you don't adjust both horizontal as well as vertical so that the rectangle is fully displayed on all four edges (stepping down a bit, for say 1-2% overscan on all four edges) then you are not producing the correct 16:9 aspect ratio with 1-2% overscan like you're shooting for.

If you want, and if there is no video "noise" at the extreme outside (typically along the top edge), you can even use the test pattern outer rectangle to be FULLY VISIBLE to adjust overscan to 0%. It's up to your own taste and how the set performs and what channel content you watch. I, personally, think that overscan set to just a bit non-zero (e.g. 1-2%) is a better compromise for most situations.

[Nakai]

Jaded - I'm very happy with this set overall. It has some very minor issues like this overscan and geometry stuff but they are to be expected with any CRT really. They are also out of whack a lot less then my previous JVC set was that I ended up returning. 360 games look fantastic and I prefer the CRT over a DLP we have as well.

DSPerber - Thanks for the helpfull post. What I ended up doing was using Windows Media Connect and my Xbox 360 to display the pattern you attached up on the screen at 1080i.

I just saved some settings. I looked at them quickly before and thought the geometry was worse then it was but it's actually pretty straight. I only changed these settings and wondering if I need to look at any others? The picture looks the same as before but without the cropping of the games HUD now. I noticed in other topics you said there are settings in MID3 to look at but I'm not sure which ones and if I even need too.

Originals -> Changed

HSIZ 2 55 -> 2 52
HPOS 1 18 -> 1 20

VSIZ 1 48 -> 11 46
VPOS 0 26 -> 0 25


BTW the pattern on the THX Optimizer will work for a 16x9 setup too won't it? I need a pattern for 480p and unfortunatly don't have Avia or DVE right now.

[nick2003]

I just got my overscan and geometry perfect or dang close on my KV-30HS420 This was posted in another thread on here but check out this guide http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36250 it takes quite a bit of time till you get used to it but eventually you should get it looking great.

[DSperber]

[QUOTE=Nakai]DSPerber - Thanks for the helpfull post. What I ended up doing was using Windows Media Connect and my Xbox 360 to display the pattern you attached up on the screen at 1080i.[/QUOTE]Excellent!

I noticed in other topics you said there are settings in MID3 to look at but I'm not sure which ones and if I even need too.The adjustments with 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 are conceptually the "raster" (i.e. the "canvas"), which is sort of the background upon which the actual image will then be displayed... located on your physical screen according to your VPOS, VSIZ, HPOS and HSIZ settings.

Then, the "image" dimensions and position (on top of the "canvas") is what is controlled by MID3. So in a sense, you can have a larger background than an actual image on top of that background, and the image can be moved around and resized on top of the background using the MID3 controls. Sort of like Photoshop.

Once at MID3, you use 0 (VDHP horizontal position), 1 (VDHS horizontal size), 2 (VDVE vertical position) and 3 (VDVS vertical size) to manipulate the "image" on top of the "background" (i.e. within the "background raster"). Again, use 3/6 buttons to adjust one unit at a time up or down and watch what happens on the screen. It will be obvious what you're doing and what effect you're having.

[guvadc]

I am brand new to posting on these forums , but have been reading them for a while and have a question that I'm hoping can be explained about my kd34xbr960 and what happened when I adjusted the overscan as for the same reasons mentioned above.

I first followed all the instructions on how to adjust with a test pattern and thought that everything was perfect. I then noticed that on the right side of my tv the is a 1-2 inch vertical strip that appears lighter than the rest of the image. This lighter strip only really shows up on a black backround with the brightness cranked up or when the screen is totally black or even when the set is turned off and at that time the strip is actually darker that the rest of the screen. I fear that I may have somehow caused burn in or un-even phosphor wear during my adjustment period. The reason I say this is because during adjusting I wanted to make sure all my sources worked and when I was watching hi-def satellite I noticed that it wan't right and proceeded to try and correct it. I didn't even think of it being a problem at the time and I went back into service mode while watching the hi-def satellite program to tweak the picture. I think that I may have tweaked a bit too much cause the far right side of the screen became garbled as though the picture was folding over on itself in the same area where I now see the 1-2 inch strip.

Has this happened too anyone else? Do you think what I described above is actually burn-in on my set and if so do you think it will go away overtime or get better in anyway? If It isn't burn-in what do you think I did wrong and how could I correct it?

Any help on this matter is greatly appreciated because I'm pretty upset with myself and my 1700.00 dollar tv that I messed up.

[guvadc]

I think I've ruled out burn in since the I can make the light strip disapear with the HPOS setting but that defeats my whole purpose of eliminating overscan.

[nick2003]

Thanks for the MID3 adjustment info DSperber, Got my KV-30HS420 looking even better :)

[nick2003]

[QUOTE=guvadc]I am brand new to posting on these forums , but have been reading them for a while and have a question that I'm hoping can be explained about my kd34xbr960 and what happened when I adjusted the overscan as for the same reasons mentioned above.

I first followed all the instructions on how to adjust with a test pattern and thought that everything was perfect. I then noticed that on the right side of my tv the is a 1-2 inch vertical strip that appears lighter than the rest of the image. This lighter strip only really shows up on a black backround with the brightness cranked up or when the screen is totally black or even when the set is turned off and at that time the strip is actually darker that the rest of the screen. I fear that I may have somehow caused burn in or un-even phosphor wear during my adjustment period. The reason I say this is because during adjusting I wanted to make sure all my sources worked and when I was watching hi-def satellite I noticed that it wan't right and proceeded to try and correct it. I didn't even think of it being a problem at the time and I went back into service mode while watching the hi-def satellite program to tweak the picture. I think that I may have tweaked a bit too much cause the far right side of the screen became garbled as though the picture was folding over on itself in the same area where I now see the 1-2 inch strip.

Has this happened too anyone else? Do you think what I described above is actually burn-in on my set and if so do you think it will go away overtime or get better in anyway? If It isn't burn-in what do you think I did wrong and how could I correct it?

Any help on this matter is greatly appreciated because I'm pretty upset with myself and my 1700.00 dollar tv that I messed up.[/QUOTE]

This is just the shadow of the cabinet, My KV-30HS420 does the same thing, Turn all the lights off in the room and make sure its completly dark then shine a light on the screen it will be gone :)

[DSperber]

[QUOTE=guvadc]I first followed all the instructions on how to adjust with a test pattern and thought that everything was perfect. I then noticed that on the right side of my tv the is a 1-2 inch vertical strip that appears lighter than the rest of the image. This lighter strip only really shows up on a black backround with the brightness cranked up or when the screen is totally black or even when the set is turned off and at that time the strip is actually darker that the rest of the screen. I fear that I may have somehow caused burn in or un-even phosphor wear during my adjustment period.[/QUOTE]Well first, I doubt very strongly that you did any physical damage to the screen, phosphors, etc., because of your adjustments.

Also, you didn't indicate exactly what adjustments (i.e. to which service menu items) you've made, and while everybody's set is unique it might be helpful if you could tell us EXACTLY which service menu items you adjusted... both as to their original numeric values before you changed them and as to their current numeric values after you changed them. Also, if you could also indicate what further changes you say you make to eliminate that strip on the right side (even though you say it defeats your whole purpose for the adjustments), it would be very helpful for our assistance in getting you to a properly adjusted overall image size, position and overscan configuration.

It sounds like your background raster adjustment may be the primary culprit, meaning the HPOS and HSIZ values. Once those are corrected to eliminate the vertical strip on the right, the horizontal size and placement of the actual image on top of that background raster can be adjusted to fit properly within the newly resized raster, using the VDHP and VDHS items. Remember you're really trying to get the background raster to fill the entire 16:9 physical screen, and then you're trying to get the entire 16:9 image to display inside of that background raster but enlarged slightly in all four directions (so that it gets cropped off of all four sides of the raster) to bring in the desired overscan percentage.

The image displayed cannot be physically larger than the background raster onto which it is placed. The background raster size and position is the limiting factor on the absolute physical display size and position of what you place on top of it.

As has been mentioned before, the subject of overscan for 720p/1080i has been discussed in great detail in several other long threads in this forum. The essence of it is that there are two parts to it: (1) adjust the raster using 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 (aka "background" or "canvas" in Photoshop), and then (2) adjust the actual picture image on top of that background raster using MID3. These are two separate steps in the process, and you probably will find yourself going back and forth a bit as you close in on the ideal values. The closer you get, you now move into the "fine tuning" arena where just very small changes are needed to get the entire test pattern image displayed as close to the extreme edges of the screen as you want them, based on your % overscan goal.

You must be using a proper overscan test pattern while doing these adjustments. And your approach to adjustments should probably be one edge of the 4-edge rectangular test pattern at a time. Obviously you must start by concentrating on one edge, but I would then move on to the opposing edge on the other side of the rectangle second. Once you adjust one and then adjust the other, you'll probably have to go back to readjust the first, and then back to readjusting the second, etc., until you have these two opposing sides of the rectangle correctly placed and displayed. Then repeat the process on the other two opposing edges.

I would start by configuring for 0% overscan so that the complete pattern (i.e. all four outer edges of the test pattern rectangle) is fully visible just at the extreme edges of the screen. Based on where you are in all settings when you start, it may be a bit of a project to "walk" the four edges of the raster in or out as needed. It might take an effort to avoid distraction of improper current image size and placement on top of the raster, but stick with it. You will eventually go to the image adjustments and tweak, and then probably come back to raster adjustments and tweak again, etc.

Once the four edges of the test pattern rectangle are completely visible at the extreme edges of the screen, you can confirm you have 0% overscan and you're using 100% of the screen by going back through the complete process all over again, adjusting each item "one unit" in either direction and observing what's happening on the screen from that single click. You should easily see the associated edge of the test pattern move up/down or right/left one increment, and you will easily conclude that it really is positioned correctly or not. Each single click for an outward adjustment should make a small amount of that edge disappear from the screen.

Once satisfied with 0% overscan so that all four edges of the image appear at the extreme visible edges of the screen, your final step is to install the needed 1-2% overscan (or whatever you want, although I think 0% is probably NOT what you should stay with in the real world) by using just the VDHS and VDVS tweaks to slightly enlarge all four edges (two opposing edges moved simultaneously in or out at the same time, as needed, by use of each of these two items).

The inner-inscribed 5% overscan rectangle in the test pattern is your visual guide to where you are moving towards. Of course once the extreme outer edge of the rectangle moves off the screen entirely it now is hard to judge "1/5 or 2/5 the distance to the goal line" which was easier to see when you had the outer edge onscreen. So you might just try clicking the same number of increments in, on both the vertical and horizontal directions, and see if that looks right.

Or, maybe you want to move in just a bit from 0% (i.e. closer to the 1% mark) so that the very extreme inner boundary of the outer edge of the test pattern rectangle is still visible onscreen. That will still be in the precise world, rather than the guessing world.

In the end, your actual displayed live HD content is still the final test as to whether you've done good or bad. If you see video noise around the edges then you have too little overscan. If you get text or something else visually cropped, you have too much overscan. If people's heads look unnaturally misshapen (fatter or thinner), you are not adjusted with proper 16:9 aspect ratio (i.e. your vertical and/or horizontal sizes are off). If a "crawl" or sports score bar or network bug/logo seems misplaced or out of proportion or not entirely visible, or if the "framing" of a scene seems odd, something's probably not quite right.

Remember, always final check the results of your work with common sense and real world content. This is "art", backed by "science". So if your test pattern adjustments were correct, your real world results should also be correct.

[guvadc]

Here is what I did.

I first adjusted the 2170D-1(VPOS and VZIZ) and 2170D-2 (HPOS and HSIZ) them to a point to where the screen was smaller than the tv. The reason I did this was so that I could adjust the actual picture settings in MID3. I was using a 16x9 test pattern that I was viewing on my XBOX360 using windows media connect. After adjusting the pattern correctly in the MID3 settings I then when back and properly spread the screen to where I wanted it in the 2170D-1 and 2107D-2. I did all of this in 1080i mode and then switched my XB0X360 to 720p and fine tuned the MID3 settings some more. I found the setting the 2170D-1 and 2 to be global an adjusment of MID3 to be different for 720p and 1080i.

My adjusments ended up being as follows:



Factory New

2170D-1 0 VPOS 26 26
2170D-1 1 VSIZ 30 28

2170D-2 1 HPOS 29 32
2170D-2 2 HSIZ 42 38

MID3
0 VDHP 107 85
1 VDHS 240 250
2 VDVE 19 6
3 VDVS 135 140

And the MID3 adjsuments are a bit differant for 720p.


Like I said earlier the light strip goes away when I adjust the HSIZ in that it pushes the lighter area out the edge of the screen but if adjust the HPOS it does'nt have any affect on it as with any of the other adjustments I mentioned above. If I set everything back to the factory settings the lighter strip is still there but only about 1/4 to 1/2 inch in width so I wonder if it was always there and I just never noticed it before since I wasn't staring at the sides to make sure I got everything right. It also seems as if it is an area if the backround or Raster that was never used and I just pulled it in to viewing and perhaps needs to be "broken in". Or perhaps its a shadow of some sorts like nick3003 mentioned.

Thank you for putting my mind at ease about me damaging my set but I'm still wondering what it is and If it will cause harm if I leave it as is. I'm also wondering like I said earlier if it is a portion of the screen that wasn't used before and needs time to adjust or if it's a shadow the why does it seem to move when I adjust the HPOS setting.

Thank you very much for your help in this matter.

[DSperber]

[QUOTE=guvadc]
Factory New

2170D-1 0 VPOS 26 26
2170D-1 1 VSIZ 30 28

2170D-2 1 HPOS 29 32
2170D-2 2 HSIZ 42 38

MID3
0 VDHP 107 85
1 VDHS 240 250
2 VDVE 19 6
3 VDVS 135 140

[/QUOTE]Just to comment on your numbers, I find it very interesting that what you say were the factory settings for 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 for 1080i are different from the values I found in my XBR960 when it first arrived, and which matched the numbers shown in the Excel spreadsheet version of the service menu description that has been posted previously (in other threads). On the other hand, your MID3 factory settings do match mine. Interesting.

Nevertheless, and without speculating yet on what this mysterious "strip" on the right side of the picture tube of yours might be (unless it's a true defect that you should get a Sony tech to come out and look at), and not wanting to get into a "mine's bigger" debate because everybody's set is different, just for purposes of reference (and your possible experimentation, although you certainly sound like you're doing everything right... assuming you're using a proper test pattern, for example the "overscan.zip" one I uploaded in this thread several posts up), here are my matching values:

2170D-1: VPOS=(24 28), VSIZ=(38 32)
2170D-2: HPOS=(29 31), HSIZ=(47 41)
MID3: VDHP=(107 80), VDHS=(240 252), VDVE=(19 7), VDVS=(135 140)

All in all, our tweaked numbers are reasonably close to each other.

[guvadc]

I found to be wierd as well that the settings on my set were different than the spreadsheet in fact I tried to match the settings on the spreadsheet with my tv and it just wasn't right. My tv was a new tv in the box albeit an exchanged one due to color purity issues which could not be fixed in the landing settings.

I am wondering if someone else can try this and have the tv turned on but not give it a signal or have a blank black screen and then turn the brightness up and see if you can see a lighter or brighter strip on the far right side of the screen.

[guvadc]

Lets say that I want a Sony Service Tech to come out and look at my tv. Will my waranty be voided if I have been into the service menu?

[guvadc]

Thanks to those who have answered my posts on the issue I am having with the far right side of my screen having a vertical strip that is lighter than the rest of the screen and that is visible when there is a black background and the brightness gets turned up.

I do have some other things to say about my problem in that it seems to be the raster itself and not the screen since however I resize it it's still there even if I shrink it. It also appears to match the overlay cutoff for example if you move the pitrure all the way to the right it will over lap to a point and then stop. That point at which the overlap stops on the right side of the the raster is the same width my brighter strip is.

I did some extensive re doing of my overscan adjustment and found that I did have somethings wrong but my problem is still there. The first thing I had wrong was the MID3 or picture settings. At some point I actually had the picture overlapping, so I adjusted everything back to the factory settings and then adjusted the 2170D-1 and 2 small enough so I could adjust the MID3 settings. I then adjusted the MID3 setting so the very edge of the picture was matching the edge of the raster something that I had done wrong or I believe wrong in the first place. Then I went back and adjusted the 2107D-1 and 2 to fill the raster back up to around 2.5% overscan. I repeated this same procedure for Video 5&6(1080i,720p,480p) and then Video 7 or my HDMI input which I had not been aware that the MID3 settings were also different just for that specific input let alone resolution.

Can someone please tell me if the they know what its called and why the picture or raster can overlap just on the right side like that? Id also like to know if there is such a thing as an unused portion of the raster on directview crt sets since I am brand new to this.

[gp-se]

hey I have a question, where do I adjust the edges to:
1 or 2 in this pic?
http://www.aci.on.ca/~hdeen/pattern.JPG

[gp-se]

[QUOTE=DSperber]
Once at MID3, you use 0 (VDHP horizontal position), 1 (VDHS horizontal size), 2 (VDVE vertical position) and 3 (VDVS vertical size) to manipulate the "image" on top of the "background" (i.e. within the "background raster"). Again, use 3/6 buttons to adjust one unit at a time up or down and watch what happens on the screen. It will be obvious what you're doing and what effect you're having.[/QUOTE]

in MID3 I cannot find the settings u list (VDHP,VDHS,VDVE,VDVS).
I'm using Video 6 with my Progressive Scan DVD Player (480P Component).
my tv is a KV-30HS420

[ragingd]

I need help please. I have the xbr910 and Im trying to adjust the overscan on the tv. But when I display the overscan test pattern with DVE, the test image is tilted to the right. Is there anyway to adjust this? Please any advice would be appreciated thanks.

[nick2003]

[QUOTE=ragingd]I need help please. I have the xbr910 and Im trying to adjust the overscan on the tv. But when I display the overscan test pattern with DVE, the test image is tilted to the right. Is there anyway to adjust this? Please any advice would be appreciated thanks.[/QUOTE]

Should be a tilt adjuster in the tv's user menu, At least there is on my 30HS420. Theres also an entry in the service menu that the isf calibrator adjusted mine with but i can't remember what it was but the one in the user menu works the same.