HD DVD PLAYERS AT CRUTCHFIED...Under $500.00

[jones07]

Some of you might be interested in the New HD DVD PLAYERS....Player can now be PRE-ORDERED at Crutchfield. Bad news for some, the Toshiba HD-A1 DVD Players only has a HDMI output.......................$499.99

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-kdDllPWUajZ/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?i=052HDA1&cm_re_o=fB5Bu5zTw*kwzp*5MjiDnZK-v


Now Amazon also
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000E1PTGK/qid=1136775798/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-8451328-3988049?n=507846&s=electronics&v=glance

[Kris Deering]

Actually it has a composite, S-Video and Component output too, but you won't watch HD-DVD over them. But that isn't new news anyways. They wouldn't let you watch upscaled DVD over them either, so why would they let you watch HD-DVD?

[Dreamaster]

[QUOTE=Kris Deering]Actually it has a composite, S-Video and Component output too, but you won't watch HD-DVD over them. But that isn't new news anyways. They wouldn't let you watch upscaled DVD over them either, so why would they let you watch HD-DVD?[/QUOTE]

Uhh... it's news because most of us thought that HD-DVD would at least
get downrezzed over component. Man Hollywood is so freaked out
over nothing.

Dreamaster

[andy2000]

That's sad news about no component out. Even though my main TV has HDCP, I'm not going to buy into HDDVD if it means replacing EVERY TV in the house to be able to watch my new discs in any room. I expect at least another 5 years out of my ancient 1.5 year old Panasonic HDTV in the bed room.

I'm sitting this out until I can watch HD discs (in full HD res) on all my HDTVs even if that means waiting 5 or 10 years before all my old TVs are replaced.

[Ja Phule]

I always assumed HD-DVD and Blu-Ray would be at least downscaled to 480i so that non hdtv displays can still show movies. It may not be HD but they should still be vieweable like what we see now. I can still see HD over composite/svideo right now at 480i with my cable box.

[andy2000]

Hopefully that description is just poorly worded. It makes it sound like you can only view HDDVDs on a HDMI display.

I can understand the need for protecting their content, but why don't they come up with a copy protection flag, or something that they can add to the analog HD output? Not allowing analog HD is just lazy and will cost them sales. There are already devices that remove the protection from HDMI, so it's not like they have anything to lose. If their content is so precious, they probably shouldn't be selling it to the public!

[Semblance]

But but but.....they include the HDMI cable! :D

[AnthonyP]

I think what they mean is that component is limited to 480i/p so you can view HD-DVDs but obviously what you are seeing (480i/p) won't be HD. And not that you won't see anything.

And this is not a Hollywood thing because we have not heard of the BR players doing the same thing. My guess it is a Toshiba/TW thing

viewing high-definition HD DVD content requires an HDTV or HD-ready TV with HDMI input

think about it this way, can you watch HD anything on an SDTV, using composite?

[brian12773]

[QUOTE=Semblance]But but but.....they include the HDMI cable! :D[/QUOTE]

What about people who bought a TOSHIBA tv in 2003 that has a DVI input. we have to pony up money for the cable?

[jones07]

[QUOTE=brian12773]What about people who bought a TOSHIBA tv in 2003 that has a DVI input. we have to pony up money for the cable?[/QUOTE]

Nope,..................pony up money for a DVI to HDMI adapter :o

[MikeZ1998]

Toshiba HD-A1 specs

"DVD movie playback is restricted to "Region 1" coded discs" :

Does it mean HD DVD movie playback is not region-restricted ?

[jvgillow]

[QUOTE=MikeZ1998]Toshiba HD-A1 specs

"DVD movie playback is restricted to "Region 1" coded discs" :

Does it mean HD DVD movie playback is not region-restricted ?[/QUOTE]

I think that was said in the context of both SD DVD and HD DVD. I can't imagine they would omit region control on the new discs.

[Escamillo]

[QUOTE=jones07]Nope,..................pony up money for a DVI to HDMI adapter :o[/QUOTE]

I've a question regarding DVI. I know that HDMI is backward compatible with DVI and there are DVI to HDMI and HDMI to DVI adapters (my current setup uses a DVI->HDMI adapter). But is DVI HDCP-compliant? That is in order to achieve HDCP-compliance do you need a pure HDMI connection or can you get away with a DVI->HDMI (or HDMI->DVI) connection? :confused:

[Dahlsim]

[QUOTE=AnthonyP]I think what they mean is that component is limited to 480i/p so you can view HD-DVDs but obviously what you are seeing (480i/p) won't be HD. And not that you won't see anything.

And this is not a Hollywood thing because we have not heard of the BR players doing the same thing. My guess it is a Toshiba/TW thing

think about it this way, can you watch HD anything on an SDTV, using composite?[/QUOTE]

Isn't the Downrezzing over component issue the ICT thing discussed as likely for all High Def DVD? I'd be suprised if whatever is done with regard to that isn't applied equally to both Blu Ray & HD DVD. I doubt one would want to do it while the other does not.

As I recall Amir posted in fact that high def over component is available in Europe on wmv/hd.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=625238&page=19&pp=30
Studio Canal has already produced WMV-HD discs. Do you think they asked for permission from US? No. As an example of their extreme freedom here, WMV-HD discs put out full 1080p on component output. Some things are better in Europe

So in general it seems the downrezzing issue is more of a regional / biz issue than a Toshiba/TW thing.

[jones07]

[QUOTE=Escamillo] But is DVI HDCP-compliant? That is in order to achieve HDCP-compliance do you need a pure HDMI connection or can you get away with a DVI->HDMI (or HDMI->DVI) connection? :confused:[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I do not know.

[archibael]

[QUOTE=Escamillo]I've a question regarding DVI. I know that HDMI is backward compatible with DVI and there are DVI to HDMI and HDMI to DVI adapters (my current setup uses a DVI->HDMI adapter). But is DVI HDCP-compliant? That is in order to achieve HDCP-compliance do you need a pure HDMI connection or can you get away with a DVI->HDMI (or HDMI->DVI) connection? :confused:[/QUOTE]

Depends on the DVI device. Most DVI TVs have HDCP, but there were a few which did not (and most computer monitors do not).

It's not always advertised on the box, sometimes it's buried in the manual. My buddy bought a Hitachi TV in 2003 with DVI and I worried him until he found an "HDCP 1.0 compliant" comment near the end of the owner's book.

[nataraj]

[QUOTE=brian12773]What about people who bought a TOSHIBA tv in 2003 that has a DVI input. we have to pony up money for the cable?[/QUOTE]

Depends on what you mean by pony up. A DVI-HDMI cable from monoprice (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10231&cs_id=1023101&p_id=2404&seq=1&format=2&style=) will cost much less than the expected price of a HiDef DVD.

[nataraj]

[QUOTE=andy2000]That's sad news about no component out. Even though my main TV has HDCP, I'm not going to buy into HDDVD if it means replacing EVERY TV in the house to be able to watch my new discs in any room. I expect at least another 5 years out of my ancient 1.5 year old Panasonic HDTV in the bed room.

I'm sitting this out until I can watch HD discs (in full HD res) on all my HDTVs even if that means waiting 5 or 10 years before all my old TVs are replaced.[/QUOTE]

Thats why I've argued so much that downrezing over component is such a braindead idea.

Hybrid discs can reduce some problems, though ...

[AnthonyP]

Isn't the Downrezzing over component issue the ICT thing discussed as likely for all High Def DVD?

yes ICT is in both. But this is not about ICT. From the looks of it Toshiba is either planning to DR everything (no matter what the ICT setting) or planning to not allow HD-DVD over analog, depending on how you interpret what they said. (and not only 540p that would be allowed by ICT but 480p)

I'd be suprised if whatever is done with regard to that isn't applied equally to both Blu Ray & HD DVD

well it is a studio thing. We have heard from 4 of them (Fox, Disney, Sony, TW) TW was interested in it and fought to keep ICT, Disney and Sony wanted it removed and did no care about full over analog, Fox made a similar statement. My guess all studios might go No ICT initially, but I don't think TW fought for it because they thought it was useless and had no intention of using it. It still remains that the three biggest BD studios were against it.

[Esosresik]

I hate to say it, but I will probably go with HD-DVD because of the price. I could justify spending $500 for the unit and $25 for the media. I just cant see myself spending $1000 for a player and $40 for the media even if Blu-Ray has more impressive specs and has more studios on board at this time.

Betamax had better specs except for tape time and it lost out. I do not think Blu-Ray is going to win this format war unless they can match pricingwith HD-DVD. The average person just wants to watch HD and if you are getting the same picture from HD-DVD for a lot cheaper than Blu-Ray people will not care about the superior specs. The studios will end up getting on board once HD-DVD starts getting marketshare which they will.

I still contend there is going to be no way Sony is able to include a blu-ray player in the PS3 console gaming system and have it ready for spring release competitively priced as well.

JMHO

[Dahlsim]

yes ICT is in both. But this is not about ICT. From the looks of it Toshiba is either planning to DR everything (no matter what the ICT setting) or planning to not allow HD-DVD over analog, depending on how you interpret what they said. (and not only 540p that would be allowed by ICT but 480p)

I see, so the ability to recognize the downrez flag and enforce it if present is what is required in the spec? That means it's planned as a studio by studio, movie by movie "feature". lol So then you're saying this hardware is going beyond that and basically downrezzing everything to 480p unless it's over hdmi/hdcp?

Unless this is somehow being "enforced" by some powers that be whether it's MPAA, HD forum, BD group or whoever, I can't see how it makes sense for a hardware maker to cripple functionality that will affect millions of their best prospective consumers (early HDTV adopters).

It will be interesting to see what BR players do in regards to HD over component, esp. the supposedly low priced PS3. So far there seems to be almost an unspoken rule out there forcing the issue. Even the 360 which has scaling built-in and plays high def videos by download or MCE streaming, won't do something as obvious as upconvert SD DVD.

[AnthonyP]

I see, so the ability to recognize the downrez flag and enforce it if present is what is required in the spec? That means it's planned as a studio by studio, movie by movie "feature". lol

yes

So then you're saying this hardware is going beyond that and basically downrezzing everything to 480p unless it's over hdmi/hdcp?

that is my understanding from the spec sheets posted on the different pre-order sites

[AnthonyP]

Unless this is somehow being "enforced" by some powers that be whether it's MPAA, HD forum, BD group or whoever, I can't see how it makes sense for a hardware maker to cripple functionality that will affect millions of their best prospective consumers (early HDTV adopters).


don't forget each company, model, player has an AACS ID, if manufacturers are not holding up their side of the bargain their ID can be revoked and the player won't be able to play new disks

[SurfingMatt27]

[QUOTE=Esosresik]I hate to say it, but I will probably go with HD-DVD because of the price. I could justify spending $500 for the unit and $25 for the media. I just cant see myself spending $1000 for a player and $40 for the media even if Blu-Ray has more impressive specs and has more studios on board at this time.

Betamax had better specs except for tape time and it lost out. I do not think Blu-Ray is going to win this format war unless they can match pricingwith HD-DVD. The average person just wants to watch HD and if you are getting the same picture from HD-DVD for a lot cheaper than Blu-Ray people will not care about the superior specs. The studios will end up getting on board once HD-DVD starts getting marketshare which they will.

I still contend there is going to be no way Sony is able to include a blu-ray player in the PS3 console gaming system and have it ready for spring release competitively priced as well.

JMHO[/QUOTE]

Nice post!

I agree with you from a logical perspective, HD-DVD sounds more better giving it's cheaper price and availability while we are yet to hear anything of blu-rays availability especially PS3 epuiped with it by march or may.Blu-ray has better looking specs on paper bu will it live up to those specs?

Specs are good..when you live up to them.

[SurfingMatt27]

[QUOTE=AnthonyP]yes



that is my understanding from the spec sheets posted on the different pre-order sites[/QUOTE]

That's the problem Anthony, all blu-ray has is specs..you are relying on specs on paper.The question is will blu-ray live up to them?

Blu-ray sounds great on paper, but will they deliver?

That's the question.

Specs are good..when they deliver them.

[jones07]

[QUOTE=Esosresik]I hate to say it, but I will probably go with HD-DVD because of the price. I could justify spending $500 for the unit and $25 for the media. I just cant see myself spending $1000 for a player and $40 for the media even if Blu-Ray has more impressive specs and has more studios on board at this time.


JMHO[/QUOTE]

Ditto ;)

If BR is that much better I'll buy it when the price drops...........If it's still a force in the market place

[BIL]

[QUOTE=Esosresik]
I still contend there is going to be no way Sony is able to include a blu-ray player in the PS3 console gaming system and have it ready for spring release competitively priced as well.

JMHO[/QUOTE]

I'm expecting that "spring release" actually means before June twenty-whatever - in Japan. US early fall, Europe late fall. And Sony will be taking a decent loss on each one to have them be competitively priced.

When the the PS2 came out with a DVD drive for $300, that seemed too good to be true as well. I imagine that I'll buy BR like I bought DVD - buy a PlayStation, then wait a couple years and upgrade to a nicer standalone player for under $200.

[BlackRiderX]

[QUOTE=SurfingMatt27]That's the problem Anthony, all blu-ray has is specs..you are relying on specs on paper.The question is will blu-ray live up to them?

Blu-ray sounds great on paper, but will they deliver?

That's the question.

Specs are good..when they deliver them.[/QUOTE]

I agree, as Sony has not talked about anything like prices, dates and whatnot.

Keep in mind that Toshiba has burned us what, twice now, on when they promised to deliver HD-dvd into the marketplace.

[bferr1]

[QUOTE=BlackRiderX]Keep in mind that Toshiba has burned us what, twice now, on when they promised to deliver HD-dvd into the marketplace.[/QUOTE]

And I'm sure that Toshiba damn well realizes they can't blow another projected release date, or they're finished. It's March or it's never.

[Dan Hitchman]

But with AACS not even completely finalized this may be the shortest lived HD-DVD player in the history of the format!

It doesn't even output at native 1080p or have full Dolby TrueHD support!!!!!

No sale at any price.

Dan

[Earz]

[QUOTE=Dan Hitchman]But with AACS not even completely finalized this may be the shortest lived HD-DVD player in the history of the format!

It doesn't even output at native 1080p or have full Dolby TrueHD support!!!!!

No sale at any price.

Dan[/QUOTE]


Agreed, and when was the last Toshiba player made that could even be thought of as decent?
Good luck to anyone who buys this player....hopefully you get an official beta tester button with each purchase....no extra charge. :D

[SurfingMatt27]

at least it's finalized unlike blu-ray which is just specs on paper.

Specs are good..when you live up to them. "Michael Dell" Dell inc.

[SurfingMatt27]

Frankly i could care less about 1080p or DD HD DTS HD, yatat yatta , i'll be fine with DD5.1 and DTS nothing wrong with them.

1080p won't benefit much if there is no 1080p source material, in which frankly..there is'nt hardly any.


Enjoy overpriced blu-ray, it's sure to become the next beta-max;)

[Issac Hunt]

[QUOTE=SurfingMatt27]Frankly i could care less about 1080p or DD HD DTS HD, yatat yatta , i'll be fine with DD5.1 and DTS nothing wrong with them.

1080p won't benefit much if there is no 1080p source material, in which frankly..there is'nt hardly any.


Enjoy overpriced blu-ray, it's sure to become the next beta-max;)[/QUOTE]
Who let all the kids in? Just got caught up again after the holidays and this is the kind of drivel being posted. What a shame.

There will be as much 1080p24 content available as the various studios decide to produce. Since it appears that neither format is really finalized or ready for prime time it's not really the most pressing question, is it.

[Student of A/V]

I will probably buy into HD-DVD via the XBOX 360 adapter. I agree with other posters that if HD-DVD picture quality is great , along with its lower price, HD-DVD will be very hard to beat. Sony's best shot for the mass market is that everyone buys the PS3 at $599.00 (price not factual, only a guess) for the Blu-Ray capability.

[Earz]

Have fun not having any titles by Sony, MGM, Columbia Tri Star, Disney, Miramax or Fox with your 50% of titles available format. :D

Its cheap though....right? ;)

[Larry Sutliff]

I've preordered the Toshiba from Crutchfield, and I'll buy the first Blu-Ray player available at a reasonable price, too. I'm selling some old comic books and other collectibles on eBay to fund these purchases, just so no one thinks I'm rich! ;)


I can't wait to have true High Definition movies to watch on my HDTV. To me, this is as exciting as the first DVD player was back in '97.

[egore]

For most of us it doesn't matter if the Toshiba player doesn't output 1080p because most of us have 720p or 1080i sets. Even SXRD owners wont be able to use 1080p.
Just so every one knows both HD-DVD and Blu-ray support 1080p24.

[J.H.]

I havent paid attention to this thread I have been in another one for the past couple days. I'm curious has anyone else preordered the HD-A1 besides me? from crutchfield or anywhere? Thanks J.H.

[Larry Sutliff]

I'm curious has anyone else preordered the HD-A1 besides me? from crutchfield or anywhe

Yes, I pre-ordered from Crutchfield.

[jones07]

[QUOTE=Earz]Have fun not having any titles by Sony, MGM, Columbia Tri Star, Disney, Miramax or Fox with your 50% of titles available format. :D

Its cheap though....right? ;)[/QUOTE]


I'm just Joe consumer, unlike "Some" of you I don't have a dog in this BR/HD-DVD fight. I'm going to buy the HD-DVD, not the preordered Toshiba from Crutchfield, Crutchfield always seemed a bit pricy to me. But when Buy/Amazon/Newegg dot com gets them, I'm all over it like white on rice. And when the BR zealots are still watching SD-DVD, I'll be watching software in Hi-Def. :D
Now when BR hits the market and drops to my price range...............I'll buy that also..................No Harm No Foul ;)

[nataraj]

[QUOTE=Earz]Have fun not having any titles by Sony, MGM, Columbia Tri Star, Disney, Miramax or Fox with your 50% of titles available format. :D

Its cheap though....right? ;)[/QUOTE]

I'm amazed when people think studio support is etched in stone ...

[J.H.]

I was just curious Larry. I guess your like me and really can't wait for this baby to ship? Hopefully Amazon will have some HD-DVDs for sale soon or at least by the time the machine arrives. I suspect they will. J.H.

[AnthonyP]

That's the problem Anthony, all blu-ray has is specs..you are relying on specs on paper.The question is will blu-ray live up to them?

Blu-ray sounds great on paper, but will they deliver?

That's the question.

Specs are good.when they deliver them.

SurfingMatt27 : well show me the delivered HD-DVD. :)

I would rather look at a player that the specs tll me 1080p and might not live up to them then one who's specs say 480p and do :) if and when it comes out. For over a year BR has been telling us some stuff and all of it has been maintained. On the other hand the only thing we have gotten from HD-DVD and especially Toshiba is dates and specs that constantly change.

HD-DVD-45, no HD-DVD-45
HD-DVD-r/re no HD-DVD-r/re
spring 2006, before the end of 2006, in Dec in Japan, early Q1 and now the 28 March (so how long before Q2?)

[AnthonyP]

For most of us it doesn't matter if the Toshiba player doesn't output 1080p because most of us have 720p or 1080i sets.

are you planning on keeping that as your main display? what happens in 2+ years when most sets are 1080p?

[jones07]

I'll worry about that in 2+ years

[lymzy]

[QUOTE=AnthonyP]are you planning on keeping that as your main display? what happens in 2+ years when most sets are 1080p?[/QUOTE]


Come on AnthonyP, this isn't really related to the format war. :)
Both format stored 1080p on disc.
As to the player, Toshiba adopt the DVD route here. First milk the market using 1080i60, then add de-interlaced chip in and called it progressive player.

To the videophile, I think many would prefer using the player as a pure transport output raw data directly from the decoder and pass it to the video processor. The best solution for DVD now is using SDI to transfer 480i60 to the stand alone video processor. Therefore, as long as the HD DVD player could output unaltered raw data from the video/audio decoder, it is no problem especially for the Hi-End market.

[Larry Sutliff]

. I guess your like me and really can't wait for this baby to ship? Hopefully Amazon will have some HD-DVDs for sale soon or at least by the time the machine arrives. I suspect they will.

Yeah, I've been chomping at the bit for HD movies for awhile. I wanted to get into D-VHS, but the format petered out just as I was ready to buy. I don't mind buying two different formats, I had both Beta and VHS, I had three different Laserdisc players, and have two DVD players in my system now. So multiple decks doesn't bother me. As someone else said, I have no horse in this race, I just want to see films in as close to the theatrical experience as I can. That's been my goal since I first got into Home Theater, so I'm excited that these formats are on the way. Now, when KING KONG is released to HD-DVD exclusively, I'll be able to get that. And when X-MEN and X-2 come to Blu-Ray, I'll be able to have those.

[egore]

are you planning on keeping that as your main display? what happens in 2+ years when most sets are 1080p?

In 2+ years I will end up buying a new player anyways so it's not an issue with me.

[J.H.]

I certainly am drooling for mine right now. Dam I can't wait for March. J.H.

[AnthonyP]

Both format stored 1080p on disc.

agree, I never said the opposite. The issue is people are limiting themselves to what they bought some years ago. At some point you got to stop looking to yesterday. If people buy players that are 1080p we give an indication that 1080p is what we want. If we buy 1080i or 480p over component we tell them that is good enough and then they won't try and we will be here bitching why don't we have 1080p or more and blame it on j6p that does not care. All I see is a bunch of short sighted AVSers and to me, that is sad.

[andy2000]

I was just thinking about the lack of HD over component on the Toshiba players. I thought HD over component was required in Japan. Does the Japanese version do HD over component? If so, wouldn't it be possible to flash the firmware of the US players with the Japanese firmware to gain HD over component?

[Paul_Seng]

[QUOTE=AnthonyP]agree, I never said the opposite. The issue is people are limiting themselves to what they bought some years ago. At some point you got to stop looking to yesterday. If people buy players that are 1080p we give an indication that 1080p is what we want. If we buy 1080i or 480p over component we tell them that is good enough and then they won't try and we will be here bitching why don't we have 1080p or more and blame it on j6p that does not care. All I see is a bunch of short sighted AVSers and to me, that is sad.[/QUOTE]

The problem is that many can't afford to buy another TV that is 1080P capable (or are happy with the resolution they have now). If the case was to try to get the best then we should all be clamoring for the CE manufacturers to make all TV's 1080P and all receivers to decode Dolby HD and DD+ and DTS-HD. Most on this forum are working joes who can't afford to upgrade everything to get to HT heaven.

[Esosresik]

[QUOTE=Issac Hunt]Who let all the kids in? Just got caught up again after the holidays and this is the kind of drivel being posted. What a shame.
[/QUOTE]
Who let all the kids in here? This coming from a person who's forum name is a 12 year old toilet humor moniker?

[lymzy]

[QUOTE=AnthonyP] If we buy 1080i or 480p over component we tell them that is good enough and then they won't try [/QUOTE]

If 1080i60 is what out of the BRCM decoder in that HD DVD player, I prefer 1080i60 output from HDMI rather than 1080p60. I don't trust the de-interlace chip in the first generation machine.

The same goes for bluray player.

[archibael]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but if it's stored as 1080p24, why exactly would it need to be deinterlaced?

Is your suspicion that the Broadcom chip is spitting out 1080i and there's a second chip processing it further?

[AnthonyP]

I thought HD over component was required in Japan.

no, the way I understand it, the issue in Japan is that it can't be studio determined (i.e. interfere with what can be displayed). I think that might be one of the reasons Toshiba did what they did (i.e. cover TW that wants reduced video over component)

[AnthonyP]

Most on this forum are working joes

so am I, that is why when I buy I will buy something good and keep it for some time. Instead of trash that needs upgrading just because I bought a new display. My main display is an XGA projector, plan is to buy a 1080 projector (hopefully this year, but at the rate they are showing up on the market might be next year (Ruby looks interesting but not bright enough for my taste, so waiting for new LCoS or most likely LCD) That is why I can’t understand people buying something obsolete (i.e. something that is not good enough for my next display even though I could buy a player that would be)

[SurfingMatt27]

[QUOTE=AnthonyP]agree, I never said the opposite. The issue is people are limiting themselves to what they bought some years ago. At some point you got to stop looking to yesterday. If people buy players that are 1080p we give an indication that 1080p is what we want. If we buy 1080i or 480p over component we tell them that is good enough and then they won't try and we will be here bitching why don't we have 1080p or more and blame it on j6p that does not care. All I see is a bunch of short sighted AVSers and to me, that is sad.[/QUOTE]

Theres nothing wrong with 1080i or 720p,

As to why i would go out and sink upwards of 6-$9000 for a "Real" 1080p display is beyond me wehn 1080i and 1080p have hardly no visible difference, it's minimal at best not a dramatic improvement like others claim it to be.

1080i and 720p are just fine! i'm an average J6P that has budgets, not all of us can afford $8000 displays, we are a larger majority then you rich folks.

1080i and 720p will do just fine.

[AnthonyP]

Yup and those grapes are sour and not ripe yet. You might not be interested in a 1080 display. But if you think there is no difference with 720 then you are obviously deluding yourself and most likely never saw a 1080 display.

PS I am not a rich guy, just n HT nut. I am sure that some will think you are a rich guy because you are thinking of spending 500$ on a cheap DVD player.

[AnthonyP]

PS there is also nothing wrong with 480i either

[SurfingMatt27]

[QUOTE=AnthonyP]Yup and those grapes are sour and not ripe yet. You might not be interested in a 1080 display. But if you think there is no difference with 720 then you are obviously deluding yourself and most likely never saw a 1080 display.

PS I am not a rich guy, just n HT nut. I am sure that some will think you are a rich guy because you are thinking of spending 500$ on a cheap DVD player.[/QUOTE]

Please read more carefully, i said no dramatic difference between 1080i and 1080p not 1080i and 720p.

Again 1080i and 720p should do fine since that's the majority of what people own should do fine.

[skogan]

[QUOTE=AnthonyP]Yup and those grapes are sour and not ripe yet. You might not be interested in a 1080 display. But if you think there is no difference with 720 then you are obviously deluding yourself and most likely never saw a 1080 display.

PS I am not a rich guy, just n HT nut. I am sure that some will think you are a rich guy because you are thinking of spending 500$ on a cheap DVD player.[/QUOTE]

Many people watch their TV from 3 - 4 screen widths away. I doubt many watch it under 2x screen width. At those distances, the difference between 1080 and 720 would be small. I doubt many people would see a difference.

[Earz]

[QUOTE=skogan]Many people watch their TV from 3 - 4 screen widths away. I doubt many watch it under 2x screen width. At those distances, the difference between 1080 and 720 would be small. I doubt many people would see a difference.[/QUOTE]

A lot of us own true big screens...as in over 100" and sit well within two screen widths ;)

There will be 1080p pj's by this summer streeting in the 5-6k range, and for even less before this time next year.

[skogan]

[QUOTE=Earz]A lot of us own true big screens...as in over 100" and sit well within two screen widths ;)

There will be 1080p pj's by this summer streeting in the 5-6k range, and for even less before this time next year.[/QUOTE]


True, but the discussion was about the "average J6P", and Anthoney implied that they would notice a big difference between 720P and 1080P. I don't think they will. I think they will sit about 9 feet back from a 42" screen, which is about 3 X width.

I KNOW people like us will notice the difference though:).
It makes me salivate. :)

[AnthonyP]

Again 1080i and 720p should do fine since that's the majority of what people own should do fine.

again, past tense. What they own today is what they bought in the past. Today there are more 1080p displays (have you read the CES reports) and next year even more. A format needs to be built for the future and be compatible with the past. Your argument is it was good in the past and let's assume nothing will change. That is just insane.

[AnthonyP]

skogan: I don't see where J6P came in the conversation. Is it because SurfingMatt27 called himself that? at 170 posts here in most likely less then a month I would not think he is a J6P. I would say the difference in a good display with proper output (1080P source to 1080P display VS 720P source on 720 display) could be seen up to 4-5 screen width and would be definitely noticeable at 2x

[Dahlsim]

[QUOTE=Student of A/V]I will probably buy into HD-DVD via the XBOX 360 adapter. I agree with other posters that if HD-DVD picture quality is great , along with its lower price, HD-DVD will be very hard to beat. Sony's best shot for the mass market is that everyone buys the PS3 at $599.00 (price not factual, only a guess) for the Blu-Ray capability.[/QUOTE]

You make a very good point that ultimately pricing could trump all. (it might be neck & neck with content choices) The importance of PQ is skewed pretty badly in this board, esp when comparing things like 1080p and 1080i and even 720p and 1080i.

I did a taste test showing some "J6P" friends of mine both resolutions, 720p and 1080i on the same DLP projector at my home and they literally could not tell me any definitive preference. You could see them strain to tell the difference.

PS3 price is unannounced as is the price of the 360 addon. PS3 should represent the low price for BR and likely 360 addon could represent the low price for HD DVD.

Since gaming machines will likely represent the real entry level pricing it's no wonder that niether company wants to reveal it until the "last minute". Bottom line is still that BR is expected to be "thrown in" on a hugely popular gaming machiine so BR still has to be favored heavily.

HD DVD looks to trump in the standalone player category for sure.
The protential pricing of a 360 addon vs the price of the PS3 though is still an interesting factor though since that's where entry pricing will really start...

[skogan]

[QUOTE=AnthonyP]skogan: I don't see where J6P came in the conversation. Is it because SurfingMatt27 called himself that? at 170 posts here in most likely less then a month I would not think he is a J6P. I would say the difference in a good display with proper output (1080P source to 1080P display VS 720P source on 720 display) could be seen up to 4-5 screen width and would be definitely noticeable at 2x[/QUOTE]

I've never imperically tested it, so I don't know for certain. But my eyes, (which are admittedly not perfect) tell me that the difference between 1080P and 720P aren't noticable after 3 screen widths. Other things (contrast, etc.) are, and are much, much more important at that range.


Maybe people who have actually tested it objectively will let us know. My gut tells me that under 2X it is noticable, over 3X it isn't, and between 2-3 it varies.

[bdavidson]

[QUOTE=Dahlsim]I did a taste test showing some "J6P" friends of mine both resolutions, 720p and 1080i on the same DLP projector at my home and they literally could not tell me any definitive preference. You could see them strain to tell the difference.[/QUOTE]

On a 720p DLP projector? I'm sure there wouldn't be much difference. Not a very good test IMHO.

[Dahlsim]

[QUOTE=bdavidson]On a 720p DLP projector? I'm sure there wouldn't be much difference. Not a very good test IMHO.[/QUOTE]

Good point but the test is still relavent. You can argue that a better test is a true 1080p display showing both, or maybe a native 1080p vs. a native 720p etc. but the fact is potential high def dvd buyers have one or the other. In the case of "J6P" the overwhelming odds are he has that native 720p display or a 1080i display no?

So the question is what will the 1080p look like on that display vs. the 1080i or 720p? If you have a 1080p display at this point you're not only unlikely to be "J6P" but even if the visual difference were not huge, you'd be skewed to see it as such because you know it supposed to look better, justifying the advantage.

Not so say it won't look better, but the question is margin of difference. Side by side displays in HT retail outlets don't do much better in terms of showing some large difference, esp. since in some cases they are working with non or "psuedo" 1080p content anyway.

So we'll have to wait to see when the 1080p displays are matched on the floors with the 1080p players. I'd still wager that if the price difference is large, the PQ alone will not justify it to most people outside these boards...

[Genocide1]

It will have to have spectacular video quality/ease of use to sway me away from transport streams.

[VideoGrabber]

Dahlsim wrote:
> So we'll have to wait to see when the 1080p displays are matched on the floors with the 1080p players. <

The other thing to be really careful about is that a lot of the early 1080p displays may not truly be 1080p in actuality. I.e., many will use chip sets that take 1080i, take 540p from that, and upconvert back to 1080p. Some won't even display 1080p when provided with 1080p source material.

- Tim

[ditcho]

[QUOTE=Dahlsim]The protential pricing of a 360 addon vs the price of the PS3 though is still an interesting factor though since that's where entry pricing will really start...[/QUOTE]

I suspect that by the time the XBox add-on and PS3 are available there will be an HD-DVD player that will be even cheaper than the first Toshiba, XBOx with add-on and PS3. That player will represent the entry pricing in hi-def movies, IMO, not PS3 or XBox.

[Dahlsim]

[QUOTE=ditcho]I suspect that by the time the XBox add-on and PS3 are available there will be an HD-DVD player that will be even cheaper than the first Toshiba, XBOx with add-on and PS3. That player will represent the entry pricing in hi-def movies, IMO, not PS3 or XBox.[/QUOTE]

If HD DVD players are at under $400 then yes that will be true from the standalone perspective. Total cost of entry if all you want is high def movies would be only the cost of the player. The standalone market will likely be it's own animal.

But keep in mind that the price of the high def player is different to someone that has or intends to get a PS3 or Xbox 360 anyway.

If you intend to get or have a PS3 or 360 for gaming or multimedia streaming etc. then the entry level cost to you for high def movies is how much? To be fair the PS3 has to be worth an easy minimum of $300-$400 w/o DVD and an Xbox 360 is already selling in that range so the entry level price to high def movies for console owners is going to be much lower.

[kjack]

[QUOTE=VideoGrabber]Dahlsim wrote:The other thing to be really careful about is that a lot of the early 1080p displays may not truly be 1080p in actuality. I.e., many will use chip sets that take 1080i, take 540p from that, and upconvert back to 1080p. [/QUOTE]Newer displays upscale then downscale during deinterlacing to minimize moiré noise due to folded distortion. For example, a 1080i source is deinterlaced to 2160p, scaled to 1536p, then finally scaled to 1080p, 720p or 768p. Alternately, some solutions deinterlace and upscale to 1500p, then scale to the display's native resolution.

[Sinastar]

kjack do you have a link for that quote you posted. If it was a quote.
The conventional wisdom around here is that "videograbber" has the right
answer. Or is it possible your both right and different tv's handle it different ways.
If so which ones?

Edit

Oh...kjak..Keith Jack. Quoted yourself i guess. I'm a little slow

[kjack]

[QUOTE=Sinastar]kjack do you have a link for that quote you posted. If it was a quote. The conventional wisdom around here is that "videograbber" has the right
answer. Or is it possible your both right and different tv's handle it different ways.
If so which ones?[/QUOTE]I got the info from looking at the proprietary chipsets used by the major CE companies in their latest flatpanel displays. Competitive analysis if you will. :) Even our chip does better 1080p generation than simply upscaling 540.

[b2bonez]

[QUOTE=kjack]I got the info from looking at the proprietary chipsets used by the major CE companies in their latest flatpanel displays. Competitive analysis if you will. :) Even our chip does better 1080p generation than simply upscaling 540.[/QUOTE]

But a player feeding a disc native 1080p HDMI signal to a 1080p display should be a 1:1 pixel path; i.e. no diddling with the pixels before they reach the panel, correct?

b2b

[ditcho]

[QUOTE=Dahlsim]
But keep in mind that the price of the high def player is different to someone that has or intends to get a PS3 or Xbox 360 anyway.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, and the ratio of those who intend to purchase game console for hi-def playback can be easily predicted from the current ratio of those who have purchased standalone players vs those who have purchased game consoles for DVD playback.

[Dahlsim]

[QUOTE=ditcho]Yes, and the ratio of those who intend to purchase game console for hi-def playback can be easily predicted from the current ratio of those who have purchased standalone players vs those who have purchased game consoles for DVD playback.[/QUOTE]

I don't think so. Not to say the ratio of those purchasing strictly for high-def playback will be high, likely not, but it's not very comparable to DVD playback.

DVD was in an entirely different cycle when the DVD consoles came out. DVD was developed, already in consumer price range and prices were moving down while player quality was moving up.

High def players are in the infancy cycle and were looking at comparisons of $1000 and $1800 dollar standalone players to players that cost maybe $100-$200 bucks when added to game console. That was not the case with DVD.

DVD was marketed more as a real "nice to have" bonus in current consoles but PS3 is making it major marketing point.

Interest in these players is likely to track much closer to HDTV usage than anything.