Component video out on any Blu Ray players?

[Mattman]

This may have been covered elsewhere, but i haven't yet seen a definitive answer on whether or not any of these players will have HD res output through traditional component video connections. I find it hard enough to believe that we are going to have yet another format war, but to have a format war that would exclude a large segment of your potential market is completely unfathomable.

[patonzon]

Go to this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6888299#post6888299

[jones07]

[QUOTE=Mattman] I find it hard enough to believe that we are going to have yet another format war, but to have a format war that would exclude a large segment of your potential market is completely unfathomable.[/QUOTE]

Believe it ;)

They wish to protect their IP more then your/our wallet

[moe29]

What percentage of Forum members have TV's that only accept component video inputs?

It's disgusting that we're all being left out in the cold.

How many will purchase these players, connect with component inputs, and not be aware that they're watching SD output?

[archibael]

How many will purchase these players, connect with component inputs, and not be aware that they're watching SD output?

Forum members? Probably none.

Joe Sixpacks? A lot.

[Allen Fleener]

I talked to a very knowlegable Pioneer person about full rez out from the componate outputs. Seems that they are going to do it. IMO the studio's will have the last say. Some studio's say they will allow this others may not.

Other BD manufacturers were not sure if they will down rez or not. I got the feeling that most were not finished and so were as up in the air as we are here. :(

Panasonic was not sure if they could decode Hi Rez lossless audio in their player and send it out the 5.1/7.1 analog outs. Pioneer said they will. I came away feeling that Pioneer had their act together. Others were still trying to get their act together.

Same for 1080I versus 1080P output. Pioneer will do 1080P Panasonic will do 1080i.

For now Pioneer looks like they will get my customers and my $$$$. Time will tell.

[archibael]

But... didn't Pioneer say in another thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6890833&&#post6890833) that they would not be decoding lossless and putting it out the 5.1 outs?

[HeadRusch]

Sony doesn't care about the early adopters because there is a bigger issue at stake here:

Once Sony releases its catalog in 1080p......where do they go? They're desperately trying to lock up their releases as tight as they can, because as Richard Gere once said.."THEY GOT NOPLACE LEFT TO GOOO....". :)

Unless they are planning to release a new Ultra High Definition format in the next 10 years, and expect consumers to adopt THAT, they'll exhaust their catalog in probably 5-8 years tops...and aside from double-dipping....thats about it....what do they do with their catalog of films after that? How do you sell something to people that they've arleady bought?
Increase the quality.

But where you do you with HD? How to you sell a new HD format, when even now people are scratching their heads wondering what the big deal is with HD when DVD's look so good to begin with. An even smaller pool of adopters.

They've enjoyed releasing their properties on VHS for 20 years.....now DVD has only lasted them 10......but now, with HD.......they gotta milk this sucker for a long, long time, because there is no new "Ultra super format" for them to release their stuff all over again on...so they'll do anything to protect it from being pirated.

True, there are always new formats on the horizion, but it was much easier to sell people on innovations like WideScreen, 480p and HD....when we were all using the same Crap-Tacular 480i televisions for 40 years. its going to be an awful lot harder to get them to upgrade FROM HD to something higher.....hell its going to be an uphill climb to tell people that "DVD SUCKS, YOU NEED HD DISCS!"....

on my parents 50" LCD from 10 feet away think they can tell the difference? Hah..right.

[Ratman]

[QUOTE=archibael]Forum members? Probably none.

Joe Sixpacks? A lot.[/QUOTE]

H-m-m-m... should I be offended?
I only have component. I have no intention of trashing the HDTV that I've had since 2002.

I really don't consider myself a J6P.

[HeadRusch]

[QUOTE=archibael]Forum members? Probably none.

Joe Sixpacks? A lot.[/QUOTE]

Forum Members have been selling off their stuff because they know the old non-digital interface sets are basically going to be outdated and unusable.

Of course, I wonder how many forum members are telling their potential buyers that :)

[archibael]

[QUOTE=Ratman]H-m-m-m... should I be offended?
I only have component. I have no intention of trashing the HDTV that I've had since 2002.

I really don't consider myself a J6P.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, it's my fault for being unclear. I was answering the second question, not the first.

J6P will not notice that the output is not high-def. We (including you) will.

[moe29]

Why was Hollywood OK with HD component out on D-VHS?

Why couldn't something like that have been implemented into Blu Ray?

I really want to see Blu Ray on my Pioneer SD-533... but guess i'm SOL.

[AnthonyP]

Let's try this one more time. HD over component will be available most of the time on most BD players.

AACS has ICT, ICT is a flag set by the studio. It can be allow HD over component or to not allow HD over component and force down scaling. Sony and Disney fought to remove ICT and allow, Fox is not in AACS but said they agreed with Sony and Disney, TW fought for ICT but agree it is an issue for now and said they will allow full for now.

[AnthonyP]

PS the only two players that I have read that might have forced downscaling are the Toshiba players, and I asked Amir, who has good Toshiba contacts to look into it. (the few spec sheets were a bit muddled and would be a stupid move from Toshiba

[moe29]

Let's try this one more time. HD over component will be available most of the time on most BD players.

well.... MOST OF THE TIME just doesn't hack it for me.

when i sit down to watch a movie on my HD player, i want it to be in HD... all the time, every time, over component!!!

I realize Hollywood could care less - they only think of us all as THIEVES, first and foremost.

As someone who made a special trip to Chicago to buy a DVD player and the first few titles
available (Chicago was one of the first few cities to launch DVD), it'll be sad to have to miss
out on being a BD early adopter.

[Lasher]

Not to mention if you don't have HDMI or 8 analog inputs on the back of your Receiver or Pre/Pro you'll have to replace that too. That's the boat I'm in and as far as I'm conserned they can stick their format war and their players up their collective asses. I'm not replacing all my equipment for a pair of new formats that may fall flat on its face. Look what happened to DVD-A and SACD, both are far better than CD but instead everyone of the Ipod generation wants their music on MP3. Quality does not matter to most of the Bose buying public. Now offer them their movies on Itunes where they can download and burn it and that will take off.
Sorry guys but that is just my take on the whole mess.

Lasher

[archibael]

Lasher, this isn't the case. DTS and DD will still be available over SPDIF, same as they are now. If you want lossless, then, yeah, you'll have to have HDMI or a player which has 6-8 onboard DACs, but if you've already got a receiver you enjoy, why would you "have to replace that too"?

[LynxFX]

[QUOTE=archibael]Forum members? Probably none.

Joe Sixpacks? A lot.[/QUOTE]

I have two.

I plan on upgrading in the future but probably not this year, not both anyway. Projector will probably get upgraded. But I'm waiting on a good 1080p input capable tv, and it sounds like there are more changes coming with HDMI 1.3 or 2.0 or whatever. So I'll wait until that gets worked out. In the meantime, if they want me to be an early adopter, HD over component is the only way. Blu-ray seems to be halfway there. Just announce the freakin support already!

[Lasher]

I was refering to DD+ and DTS-HD or at least I think that what there calling it. It's my understanding that these are true 7.1 and my Pre/Pro is not upgradable to true 7.1 so I'm SOL. Just from a TV standpoint I won't do it. My TV is a 4yr old Mitsubishi 60" HDTV monitor and I don't plan on shelling out that kind of cash again for quite some time. It's Just not worth it to me(and I would venture to guess many other early adopters) when regular DVD looks wonderful already :)

Just my .02

Lasher

[William Mapstone]

My front projector only has component, but I'll be upgrading my projector by the time I get blue-ray anyways.

[HeadRusch]

I've got a 480p projector with DVI in with HDCP, I've got a 2001 model 65" RPTV that only has component.

While Blu-Ray/HD-DVD will make it into my house at some point, the only thing I'd get is a slightly sharper and more colorful image on my 480p projector. Hence, I can wait for prices to fall and movie selection to expand..by then I'll be looking at a less expensive 720p projector or a more expensive 1080p, depending on how long I wait :)

Regardless of how cheap these things get, there is one thing that does concern me:

I, like most people I imagine, wont be replacing my DVD Library anytime soon. A few select titles will make the change of course, but definately not all of them. And I certainly dont see the need for any non-filmed-in-HD TV shows to be re-released in HD formats......as it is many of the current TV releases are just fugly to begin with, with lousy transfers. Again, much like Laserdisc...I see people picking and choosing their upgrades...and not "crazily buying every new release" the way they have done with DVD.

Big epic films: Sure.....I can see people lining up to grab the matrix movies, or the Star Wars movies, or something like Apocalypse Now in HD. But.....comedies? Older movies on not-so-great film stock shot with not-so-great lenses? Hmmmm...I dunno.....

Will I buy Kentucky Fried Movie in HD? Well..yeah, cuz I'm an idiot..but will most people? I doubt it :)

[archibael]

[QUOTE=Lasher]I was refering to DD+ and DTS-HD or at least I think that what there calling it. It's my understanding that these are true 7.1 and my Pre/Pro is not upgradable to true 7.1 so I'm SOL. Just from a TV standpoint I won't do it. My TV is a 4yr old Mitsubishi 60" HDTV monitor and I don't plan on shelling out that kind of cash again for quite some time. It's Just not worth it to me(and I would venture to guess many other early adopters) when regular DVD looks wonderful already :)

Just my .02

Lasher[/QUOTE]


"SOL" in terms of being able to play audio your receiver was not designed for? Okay.

But there will be downconversion to 5.1 over SPDIF for all of these new sound formats, and because the HD disk specs permit higher sampling rates even over these older downconversions (Dolby Digital at 640kbps, which is higher than DVD delivered), you still benefit.

I didn't consider myself "SOL" when I got a new DVD player and my Pro-Logic system couldn't take advantage of 5.1; I just plugged it in using what I could and waited until my own personal "upgrade cycle" took effect and I could improve my sound system that way. This is no different.

[AnthonyP]

moe29: unfortunately that is reality. It is AACS and so your choices are

no HD ever (stick with DVD)
or
HD sometimes depending on the studios wishes (go with component and BD/HD-DVD)
or
HD all the time( go with HDMI and BD/HD-DVD)

this won't go away and if anything could become a bigger issue as time progresses

[HorrorScope]

[QUOTE=archibael]Forum members? Probably none.

Joe Sixpacks? A lot.[/QUOTE]

You know there are a lot of mechanics in the world that dabble in cars on the side at home. That doesn't mean they all have funny cars with unlimited money. I think there are plenty of AVG JOE WALLETS at AVS forums.

[Lasher]

I also don't believe these new players will support DVD-A and SACD. This means that I will have to chose what is more important to me. There is after all only so many discrete analog inputs to choose from. And the whole idea of downconverting just sounds somehow cheap to me. To me thats like buying a Levinson 40 and hooking it up to Bose cubes. I just don't see the point. And it still leaves my TV out in the cold. So if I decided to buy one of the new players the best I can get from it(with my current setup) is downconverted material(Audio and Video) that may or may not sound or look better than what I currently have and I'll most likely have to unhook my Universal DVD-A/SACD player to make room for it. "No Thanks I'll Pass"

Lasher

[moe29]

How hard will it be to hack the ICT Flag???

I'm sure the copy protection in the HD formats will pose no threat to the real Pirates.

All it does is penalize those of us who try to give our hard earned money to Hollywood.

[AnthonyP]

well harder then AACS because it is in the encrypted data that contains the video stream.

[paintit77]

AACS will be hacked in 12 months after launch. It is no threat to the Pirates at all. Hollywood is just saying everyone who owns component TVs are quilty by association. It is wrong and completely amoral.
Since their is nothing we can do about now, we will have to wait for the AACS hacks and rip the HD movies to our hard drives and watch them from a PC or burn them to disk with the ICT provisions removed.
Hollywood will lose millions because they are not capable of doing the right thing. They are just like our House Of Representatives and Senate. Morally and Ethically Corrupt.

[williamtassone]

[QUOTE=Lasher] Look what happened to DVD-A and SACD, both are far better than CD but instead everyone of the Ipod generation wants their music on MP3. Quality does not matter to most of the Bose buying public.
Lasher[/QUOTE]

How true is that

[williamtassone]

[QUOTE=paintit77]AACS will be hacked in 12 months after launch. .[/QUOTE]


Weren't we told that the studios wanted the new High Definition disks as a way to combat piracy?

I'm starting to think they new Blu-ray and HD-DVD were going to get hacked pretty quick and it was all an elaborate ploy to get us to buy our library all over again.

Smart move

[keenan]

[QUOTE=paintit77]AACS will be hacked in 12 months after launch. [/QUOTE]
DVD Jon is ready to go, he's just waiting for the rollout.

http://nanocrew.net/2006/01/08/deaacscom/
So sue me » Blog Archive » DeAACS.com

[Q of BanditZ]

Just in case anyone missed it, but probably not:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6919895#post6919895

[QUOTE=Slaine]Looks like Toshiba has announced that they will be allowing HD programming to be output from their HD-DVD players over component video connections. I'd imagine the same will now be true for the MS HD-DVD add-on drive, so the addition of an HDMI port to the 360 is likely irrelevant for the time being.

Not that I wouldn't mind seeing an HDMI port get added, but this removes a huge barrier to the average joe looking to watch HD content on their current TV set.

This information was confirmed here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=625238&page=70&pp=30) by Amir from MS (Post # 2100).[/QUOTE]

If that's confirmed absolutely, that's a smart move by the HD-DVD side and the BR side had better wise up and follow suit fast.


EDIT: Or not: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6920368#post6920368

See last page or so.

[moore]

[QUOTE=Lasher]

Look what happened to DVD-A and SACD, both are far better than CD but instead everyone of the Ipod generation wants their music on MP3. Quality does not matter to most of the Bose buying public.

...

My TV is a 4yr old Mitsubishi 60" HDTV monitor and I don't plan on shelling out that kind of cash again for quite some time. It's Just not worth it to me(and I would venture to guess many other early adopters) when regular DVD looks wonderful already[/QUOTE]

Two posts juxtaposed, bold emphasis added by me. No additional comment.

[HeadRusch]

Well, thats an Apples to Oranges comparison. Audio Quality is much harder to "perceive" than Video Quality. When people say "This sounds better than that", they are often times being confused by volume levels, unless we are talking about very low bitrate MP3's being compared to WAV or CD track quality files where the quality of the recording is clearly at issue.

Example: People say DTS sounds better than Dolby Digital. Why? Because DTS tracks are often play hotter at the same volume level than the DD tracks. So when people say "that sounds better", they are attributing that mostly to the slightly louder volume.

If you played a DTS track and a DD track at the same volume using a SPL meter, 9 out of 10 people couldn't tell one from the other. Almost no DVD's run a low, or uncompressed DTS signal these days anyhow....IMHO the slightly higher bitrate of DTS doesn't really mean much in most examples.

As for DVD-A and SACD these are two technologies that really nobody asked for.
The only time they "shine" is when you're listening on the right equipment at the right volume. If you're listening to it on a sub-standard audio system or at very low or very high volumes, the differenes in audio quality are often times moot.

I don't think Lasher is contradicting himself.

[Earz]

[QUOTE=HeadRusch]Well, thats an Apples to Oranges comparison. Audio Quality is much harder to "perceive" than Video Quality. When people say "This sounds better than that", they are often times being confused by volume levels, unless we are talking about very low bitrate MP3's being compared to WAV or CD track quality files where the quality of the recording is clearly at issue.

Example: People say DTS sounds better than Dolby Digital. Why? Because DTS tracks are often play hotter at the same volume level than the DD tracks. So when people say "that sounds better", they are attributing that mostly to the slightly louder volume.

If you played a DTS track and a DD track at the same volume using a SPL meter, 9 out of 10 people couldn't tell one from the other. Almost no DVD's run a low, or uncompressed DTS signal these days anyhow....IMHO the slightly higher bitrate of DTS doesn't really mean much in most examples.

As for DVD-A and SACD these are two technologies that really nobody asked for.
The only time they "shine" is when you're listening on the right equipment at the right volume. If you're listening to it on a sub-standard audio system or at very low or very high volumes, the differenes in audio quality are often times moot.

I don't think Lasher is contradicting himself.[/QUOTE]

Have you compared double bit rate DTS via dvhs tapes to the same movie on dvd....theres definitely a cleaner sound to the double bit rate DTS that can be heard without effort imo.

[HeadRusch]

[QUOTE=Earz]Have you compared double bit rate DTS via dvhs tapes to the same movie on dvd....theres definitely a cleaner sound to the double bit rate DTS that can be heard without effort imo.[/QUOTE]

I dont doubt it. And I'm sure the resolution kicks DVD's ass too :)

My point was that on a DVD, the differences between a DD and a DTS track are rarely audible. Only sometimes can you hear an audible difference in the tracks.

The Peter Gabriel Growing Up Live DVD has a full bitrate DTS track. The DD track takes up like 300 megs, whereas the DTS track takes up like 1.8 gigabytes of space. That sounds a richer and fuller than the DD track, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a night-and-day difference.

Just a more richer, more fuller sound....if that makes any sense...

[Earz]

[QUOTE=HeadRusch]I dont doubt it. And I'm sure the resolution kicks DVD's ass too :)

My point was that on a DVD, the differences between a DD and a DTS track are rarely audible. Only sometimes can you hear an audible difference in the tracks.

The Peter Gabriel Growing Up Live DVD has a full bitrate DTS track. The DD track takes up like 300 megs, whereas the DTS track takes up like 1.8 gigabytes of space. That sounds a richer and fuller than the DD track, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a night-and-day difference.

Just a more richer, more fuller sound....if that makes any sense...[/QUOTE]

Richer, fuller, cleaner,, tighter bass and I agree that regular DTS is not always better than DD.

It will be interesting to hear the difference between standard DTS/DD.....and lossless DTS/DD also.

I definitely will appreciate any noticeable improvement.....even for movies.

[moore]

[QUOTE=HeadRusch]Well, thats an Apples to Oranges comparison. Audio Quality is much harder to "perceive" than Video Quality.
...

As for DVD-A and SACD these are two technologies that really nobody asked for.
The only time they "shine" is when you're listening on the right equipment at the right volume. If you're listening to it on a sub-standard audio system or at very low or very high volumes, the differenes in audio quality are often times moot.

I don't think Lasher is contradicting himself.[/QUOTE]

I basically agree with everything you say in this post.

I wasn't suggesting that there was a contradiction so much as an absurdity in the suggestion that most people don't care about "quality when it comes to audio", the traditional audiophile refrain, when he himself is apparently satisfied with what 90%+ of the people here would consider pedestrian video. Anyone, given any decent source and display, can tell the difference _immediately_ between HD and SD. So why is he even in this particular forum if DVD looks 'wonderful already'?

[PhdWho]

I have component only. Which really sucks.

You early adopt HDTV only to get screwed if neither HDDVD or BR allow component connections.

I think adpaters are out there, but I am not sure. Anyone know?

But they truly are segementing further with all this Protect thier movies crap.

And the thing is, it will still get copied to the internet and still get pirated, that just won't be stopped.

[Grubert]

AFAIK in Japan any downrezzing is forbidden by law at least until 2010.

[HeadRusch]

[QUOTE=moore]I basically agree with everything you say in this post.

I wasn't suggesting that there was a contradiction so much as an absurdity in the suggestion that most people don't care about "quality when it comes to audio", the traditional audiophile refrain, when he himself is apparently satisfied with what 90%+ of the people here would consider pedestrian video. Anyone, given any decent source and display, can tell the difference _immediately_ between HD and SD. So why is he even in this particular forum if DVD looks 'wonderful already'?[/QUOTE]

True, I was only commenting on the audio portion of it.....people upgrade their TV's, but alot of those people are still using the stereo they got in 1982 with the built-in cassette player.

[colossus]

Well...how many hundreds of DVD models were there on the market before something cheap and decent, image-wise (RP82, for instance) came out? I'm expecting the same for HD/BD. 1080p -> 1080i (for example) will cause combing, artifacting, chromatic decoding issues, etc etc etc. You are not going to get the best chipset in the first generation. No matter what the bitrate, if the player can't assemble a decent picture, it'll be high-resolution garbage.

I ain't buying diddly until I can get a 'perfect' image from HD/BD in component. And if it does a crappy job of decoding SD/ED dvds, I ain't buying it either. Did I mention I want DVD-A and SACD? Maybe I'll be waiting a long time, but I really don't care.

No component? Piracy concerns? Here's the obvious issue- nobody's gonna pirate what they can't watch. HDMI? The standard's not even defined yet. Ask yourself why Outlaw isn't putting HDMI into the 1070 receiver...

If these idiots want the early models to move, the people with component only inputs better get some units to buy. Otherwise this whole discussion is moot.

[kjack]

[QUOTE=colossus]Well...how many hundreds of DVD models were there on the market before something cheap and decent, image-wise (RP82, for instance) came out? I'm expecting the same for HD/BD. 1080p -> 1080i (for example) will cause combing, artifacting, chromatic decoding issues, etc etc etc. You are not going to get the best chipset in the first generation. No matter what the bitrate, if the player can't assemble a decent picture, it'll be high-resolution garbage.[/QUOTE]The chips powering these new players are also being used in HDTVs, cable/satellite/IPTV HD set-top boxes, etc. And a few are already 2nd generation chips.

[Matt_Stevens]

Please let me jump in here. Of my parents, cousins and aunt/uncles, ALL of them have HD sets with no HDCP compliant inputs. Most were purchases 3 or more years ago when you were lucky to have DVI. A few do actually have DVI, but they are not HDCP.

A LOT of people who sets like this. The vast majority. I too have one in the bedroom. My projector has HDCP compliant DVI, but no HDMI input. I hope the HDMI to DVI cables work.

[HeadRusch]

Yep, and notice how nowhere in the hype-machine that is starting to spin up for these technologies has anyone even dared to comment on this fact yet...."oh and...uh...no HD over component..SORRY!". Joe Public is NOT generally aware of this fact yet. They're going to be shocked to learn that there will be no HD over component....then you'll see articles on CNET, WIRED, "breaking the story of the outrage" :D

Sony willl probably try to spin it up as "But even at 480p the output will be sharper and more detailed than ANY DVD so get the best of BOTH worlds, and get HD content when you upgrade your display to a digital format!".

Instead of saying "You bought a HD tv that wont play our HD content because we're afraid you might copy it".

Which will ultimately lead to a whole market of people waiting for some kid in Russia or Sweden to crack the protection, and figure out a way around it. :)

These discs will still get copied and sold in China for $1 buck each, and people will still trade them on the internet......they've accomplished nothing, as their assinine CD releases can attest to. CD's that wont play in Car Stereos? WTF Sony..!?

Sony knows that after 1080p content there is litereally nowhere left to go...they wont be able to re-sell their movie properties more than 3 or 4 times (SNICKER, CHUCKLE) again since there wont be any higher-def formats on the future for decades to come.
It'll be interesting to see hwo they try to re-sell a movie "NOW WITH ENHANCED VISUALS, REMASTERED!".

you know cuz the ORIGINAL remastering in HD format..wasn't good enough :D

Hmmm...I guess this also means that if you connect your computer to a CRT monitor via VGA cable, it wont upscale over that either?? And most computer monitors that use DVI don't have any HDCP in them...so they're screwed too right?

heh..yeah..Sony just bought themselves a huge bus ticket to PirateLand...

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

[QUOTE=archibael]Forum members? Probably none.

Joe Sixpacks? A lot.[/QUOTE]
I am a forum member (obviously) and my HDTV is analogue only. I'm not about to buy a new HDTV every 2 years when each new feature gets incorporated.

P.S. I started this compatibility thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=633867) because my TV specs specifically mentioned support for other resolutions, but not 960x540.

[archibael]

[QUOTE=BuGsArEtAsTy]I am a forum member (obviously) and my HDTV is analogue only. I'm not about to buy a new HDTV every 2 years when each new feature gets incorporated.
[/QUOTE]

I wasn't responding to that part of the preceding quote. However, since you're the third person to misunderstand, it's obvious I need to clarify.

I was responding to

How many will purchase these players, connect with component inputs, and not be aware that they're watching SD output?
[quote=archibael]Forum members? Probably none.

Joe Sixpacks? A lot.[/quote]

And have since modified my original post to include that quote.