From CRT-RPTV to plasma - what to expect?

[Trackman]

There are tons of comparisons on the forum about lcd v plasma, dlp v. plasma, etc but I'm curious as to what former (or current) CRT - RPTV owners see as the relative improvements (or drawbacks) of plasma. Side by side in a store is almost impossible as hardly any CRT-RPTVs are around any more. I have a 53" Pioneer and am contemplating getting a 50 - 60" plasma later this year, depending on $. Looking at plasmas in stores I get more a feeling of depth than with the RPTV but it's otherwise hard to say.

One thing I do know - the glare/reflection issue can't be any worse, though my only daytime viewing is football or in the middle of summer when it is light out until late.

[mikea28]

i'm curious about this as well. A couple of the other advantages I see are viewing angle and all the benefits that come with a fixed pixel technology (no convergence/focus issues, perfect geometry, etc.)

btw - I like your sig :)

[Auditor55]

It all depends on your applications. For DVD movies, CRT is still better, unless you think the director intended for you to see screen door in a movie. Plasma black levels are inferior to CRT and the colors are usually overstatured which gives it that pop plasma owners talk about, but that pop is artificial and have an unnatural look that doesn't mimic real life. If you want a show piece to impress friends plasma wins big time. Plasma's are really "chic'' TV's, the chics love them.

[Trackman]

[QUOTE=mikea28]i'm curious about this as well. A couple of the other advantages I see are viewing angle and all the benefits that come with a fixed pixel technology (no convergence/focus issues, perfect geometry, etc.)

btw - I like your sig :)[/QUOTE]


Yes, viewing angle would be a clear advantage for plasma. I'm curious about color, detail, blacks and depth (or the sensation thereof).

[davyo]

[QUOTE=Auditor55]It all depends on your applications. For DVD movies, CRT is still better, unless you think the director intended for you to see screen door in a movie. Plasma black levels are inferior to CRT and the colors are usually overstatured which gives it that pop plasma owners talk about, but that pop is artificial and have an unnatural look that doesn't mimic real life. If you want a show piece to impress friends plasma wins big time. Plasma's are really "chic'' TV's, the chics love them.[/QUOTE]

In all my years of being a home theater junkie I have owned just about EVERY TYPE of display that has ever been made. Plasma beats them all out. Your comments and or opinions on plasma's are not fair or truthful in any way at all.
Every source I run thru my Pannasonic 50 incher looks amazing ( DVD, HD and even SD ) Very natural colors and skin tones with nothing artificial at all. Plasmas are for chics,,,, GIVE ME A BREAK,,,,,, I have read some pretty over the top comments on this forum in all the years I have been an AVS member and that "chic" comment will go on my personal top ten list of stupid things said on this forum. Do chics like plasmas,,,, YES they do ,,, and so do Guys,,,, whats next,,, are you guna say Guys that like plasmas are gay. You say "chics love them" well GREAT !!!!!!!,,,,,, Im single and I like getting laid,,,,, if my plasma helps me get laid more Im fine with that,,,,,, I guess that would be another plus for plasma's.

Davyo

[Student of A/V]

[QUOTE=davyo]In all my years of being a home theater junkie I have owned just about EVERY TYPE of display that has ever been made. Plasma beats them all out. Your comments and or opinions on plasma's are not fair or truthful in any way at all.
Every source I run thru my Pannasonic 50 incher looks amazing ( DVD, HD and even SD ) Very natural colors and skin tones with nothing artificial at all. Plasmas are for chics,,,, GIVE ME A BREAK,,,,,, I have read some pretty over the top comments on this forum in all the years I have been an AVS member and that "chic" comment will go on my personal top ten list of stupid things said on this forum. Do chics like plasmas,,,, YES they do ,,, and so do Guys,,,, whats next,,, are you guna say Guys that like plasmas are gay. You say "chics love them" well GREAT !!!!!!!,,,,,, Im single and I like getting laid,,,,, if my plasma helps me get laid more Im fine with that,,,,,, I guess that would be another plus for plasma's.

Davyo[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I own a 65" Mitsubushi CRT Rear Projection, 27" Toshiba LCD and a 42" VIORE (Walmart Brand) Plasma and the plasma has the best overall viewing experience. True, I still prefer watching movies on the 65" Mitsubushi for the superior blacks (also, size does matter), but when its time to upgrade .....most likely it will be a 65" Plasma.

[Trackman]

Student and davyo - could you elaborate on why you prefer the plasma image over the CRT-RPTV? How far inferior are the blacks? Color? Depth? Clarity?

[Student of A/V]

The color, depth and clarity of Plasma is significantly superior to Rear Projection CRT, IMHO. The blacks in CRT cannot be match by any current video display format, however, I for one would be willing to sacrifice that for the punch and attitude of plasma. The pro and cons of each display format becomes clearer when you actually have it in your home environment.

I suggest purchasing from a retailer (i.e. COSTCO) with at least a 30-day return policy and see for yourself. I think plasma is the best overall video display format based on price per square inch (under 50"). It's not perfect, but it is very,very good!

[spyboy]

The Professional Calibrationists who have commented on PQ of various technologies say this: Direct View CRT is #1, CRT-RPTV is #2, other technologies come close but do not equal CRT peformance.

The feeling of depth is associated with contrast and black level. CRT clearly exceeds plasma in both areas.

Impact is a major consideration. A 65 inch CRT-RPTV will have WAY more impact than a 50 inch plasma. See the statement of Student on both impact and black levels.

Right now, you can get a 65 inch Mitsu CRT-RPTV for about $2,000. Humph, let me see: a 65 inch for $2000, or a good 50 inch plasma for $3500.

Of course, CRT-RPTV is going away because of the size-weight issues.

Considerations might include:

How long will you be living at your present address?

Do you have room for a 65 inch CRT-RPTV?

Do you really want to down-size your display?

Is it worth an extra $6,000-$8,000 for a 65 inch plasma?

Here is another way to think about it. In some ways, CRT-RPTV is trailing edge technology so you get a lot of bang for your buck. Plasma is not quite bleeding edge, but at about 3X the cost for equal size, is much more expensive.

Just some things to think about.

[Student of A/V]

[QUOTE=spyboy]The Professional Calibrationists who have commented on PQ of various technologies say this: Direct View CRT is #1, CRT-RPTV is #2, other technologies come close but do not equal CRT peformance.

The feeling of depth is associated with contrast and black level. CRT clearly exceeds plasma in both areas.

Impact is a major consideration. A 65 inch CRT-RPTV will have WAY more impact than a 50 inch plasma. See the statement of Student on both impact and black levels.

Right now, you can get a 65 inch Mitsu CRT-RPTV for about $2,000. Humph, let me see: a 65 inch for $2000, or a good 50 inch plasma for $3500.

Of course, CRT-RPTV is going away because of the size-weight issues.

Considerations might include:

How long will you be living at your present address?

Do you have room for a 65 inch CRT-RPTV?

Do you really want to down-size your display?

Is it worth an extra $6,000-$8,000 for a 65 inch plasma?

Here is another way to think about it. In some ways, CRT-RPTV is trailing edge technology so you get a lot of bang for your buck. Plasma is not quite bleeding edge, but at about 3X the cost for equal size, is much more expensive.

Just some things to think about.[/QUOTE]


Here is another way to look at this:

Rear Projection CRT = Chevy Tahoe
Plasma = Lexus RH 400x

You decide the future....

[R Harkness]

I've done a lot of comparison between the best CRT RPTVs and the best plasmas. Here are my observations.

What to expect moving from CRT RPTV to plasma?

Well, that depends on the RPTV and the particular plasma of course, but some generalities from the best of both go something like this:

The CRT is a projected technology (albeit rear-projected). This, combined with a generally smooth picture (CRT doesn't have to do all the funky digital picture processing of fixed pixel RPTVs) makes for a fairly "film-like" image. Like you are looking at film, being illuminated from behind. (Some of us call it almost a "light box" effect).
As CRT RPTV owners, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

CRT RPTV is still perhaps my favorite RPTV technology because I really like the deep blacks that technology achieves. It fleshes out the image, as does the generally excellent color and shadow detail. So images on the CRT RPTVs appear to me to look rounder, more dimensional and have greater "weight" than many digital RPTVs (although the SXRD RPTVs from Sony and some DLPS have narrowed that advantage and look fabulous too).

If you replace your RPTV with a top-end plasma you'll probably notice these things, as many people do:

The plasma brings an extra punch, sharpness, clarity and "precision" to the image. Sort of like focusing the lens on the scene just that much more. Even if the plasma resolution isn't necessarily any greater, the nature of the technology has this effect on the subjective look of the image. So you tend to get a "wow that looks clearer than I've ever seen it on my RPTV" feeling. The plasma image also tends to look more vivid and "alive." By vivid I don't mean that a plasma necessarily has to look like some garish neon sign - it's fairly easy to calibrate your plasma for a very natural, relaxing image. But the brightness capability of the plasma, and the fact it's a direct-view technology, with the light directly emitted vs. projected, gives the image a greater density and palpability - more as if you could reach in and touch the objects on screen, vs. those objects simply being a beautiful projected image.

In this way, a lot of people find the switch to plasma brings an added realism that they hadn't quite experienced with their CRT RPTV.

The latest plasmas from Fujitsu, Panasonic, Pioneer and some other brands have very good black levels - good enough to maintain a good feeling of full contrast and deep shadows. Although they still don't go as deep as the CRTs, and not necessarily with the last ounce of shadow detail (although I find the latest Panasonic/Pioneer plasma models excellent for shadow detail). So the CRT provides it's feeling of depth with excellent black levels, and smooth color and shadow gradations. The plasmas, while also pretty good in those areas, tend to make it up with that additional clarity and preciseness to the image. So you get this feeling of clarity and sharpness all the way into the background. In a way it increases the subjective feeling of "depth of field" in the image, because it feels like you can look beyond the central images, to a far away background that looks clean and clear (provided it's shot that way). That's one reason why a lot of people get a "wow, I'm looking through a window on to the scene" vibe when they get a plasma.

The differences and strengths might be summed up if you imagine watching one of your favorite movies which features a car driving through a city at night. That's a challenging type of scene for digital displays especially, in terms of the black levels and shadow detail. So we'll assume a plasma with the best black levels/shadow detail like a Panasonic/Fujutsu/Pioneer. Let's say you are watching in low light conditions, as many of us watch movies.

On your CRT the image may look beautifully film-like, very even from the deepest blacks of the night sky, on up through the gradations of shadow on the streets, car, driver etc. That's one of the prime qualities of the CRT RPTV, the evenness of the image, the illuminated-film-like quality, and the lack of noise in dark areas.

Plasmas use some dithering in the dark areas, so if you move close to the screen, in some plasmas you can notice a bit of sparkling dots in certain portions of the shadow area. However, on a good plasma this is all but invisible from any reasonable viewing distance, and works to provide the shadow detail convincingly. But in absolute terms the black levels aren't as deep as the blackest on the CRT. Interesting enough, due to what I assume is the ANSI contrast characteristics of the plasma, if there are some well-lit objects on screen it provides contrast that makes the black levels look even deeper. In other words, if there are enough city lights going by or whatever the black depth of the night sky and other deep shadows appear very solid and deep. If the scene gets really low contrast - very dark, very low key lights, that's when you'll most notice the difference from the plasma vs. your CRT RPTV. And the shadow detail on the plasma, while often very good, may not quite match the evenness of your CRT (if your CRT is well calibrated).

What you are likely to see on the plasma, with those shots of the car driving through the city, is the effects of the contrast/light emission of the display. All those city lights passing along in the background take on a realistic intensity - whereas on the CRT RPTV they look like projected lights, on the plasma they look brilliant and realistic, more like they do as you are driving past them in real life. Likewise with all the lights reflecting off the car hood etc, which take on a realistic intensity. It makes it feel like you could reach out and touch the car's metallic finish, the way it pops off the screen.

So it's a trade-off. Which type of image will appear more pleasing, or more exciting to you to watch. The more film-like, even, projected look of the CRT RPTV, or the more intense, and in some ways more realistic-looking (to many people) vibe of the plasma.

Life's a box of chocolates and all that...

(BTW, it's not that plasma can't reproduce the essential film-like nature of movies shot on film. They can, just like a CRT direct view can as well. It just comes with a more intensely illuminated look).

Cheers,

[FlasHBurN]

Okay, so what about going from a 32" Sony WEGA 4:3 HDTV CRT to a Panasonic 37" Plasma? Is it going to be enough of an improvement to justify spending the $2000 for it?

[spyboy]

Nice post Rich.

It strikes me that the differences in PQ between CRT-RPTV and plasma are relatively subtle, with the CRT having an advantage in at least one area, and the plasma having an advantage in at least one area. What is not subtle at all is the huge difference in price.

Student

If price were not a consideration, most people would be driving luxury cars, I know I would. An Infinity M35X would be real sweet. But here in my world, I am just going to have to make do with my Accord EX and Toshiba 65H84.

I am hoping that by the time I have to replace the Tosh, affordable SED will be a reality. I was real pleased to read that the decision has been made that the initial SEDs will be 55 inches, no smaller. That should tell you something.

[spyboy]

FlashBurn

I would wait till I could afford a 42 inch plasma. I would look at your decision as primarily about size. You have an excellent direct view, the highest performance technology. While a 37 will give you more screen area for widescreen sources, it is about a wash for 4:3.

[Student of A/V]

Spyboy

It wasn't only about the price comparison between the Chevy Tahoe and the Lexus RX400h it was also about technologies. The Lexus uses Hybrid Technology which is much more fuel efficient and yet still just as powerful at the V8 in the Chevy. Is the Lexus worth the extra price based on its complete package i.e. luxury, performance, fuel mileage, etc vs the Chevy (btw, I can only afford the Ford Escape Hybrid)?

A similar decision has to be made for everyone in the market for a new television. Don't get me wrong, I still love my 65" Mitsubushi, just like I loved a Chevy V8....but once you experience plasma, lcd, etc. in your home I think you wil be very happy.

[cajieboy]

Great post Rich. One thing I think I would add to it is the lack of viewing angles that are very apparent on CRT RPTV's. This drives me crazy every I visit my sister's home and we all sit down in the evenings to watch a movie on their Mits Diamond 55"er.

[Trackman]

Thank you so much, Rich (and everybody else too!) - you described exactly the sensation I get when I see a good plasma - more of a feeling of actually being there. I agree with the sensation of extra depth or substance that I see in a Panny or Pio plasma versus my 6 year-old 53" Pioneer. And I also agree that SXRDs and DLPs just don't seem quite as good as what I now have in the CRT-RPTV. The max size (inc. cabinet/bezel) I can fit is 60". I'm sitting 13' away, so 60" would actually be better anyhow. So, my choices are 61" plasma (NEC or Pio) or 61/62" DLP (Mits/Tosh/Sam). I like plasmas better (SSE bugs me), but I'm not going to upgrade just to do it.

[DanP]

I also own a 53" Pioneer Elite RPTV (model 510) and a Panasonic th-50px50u. The RPTV takes more special care and feeding (convergence, cleaning out dust from lenses and guns) and while I agree that my Pioneer is preferred for DVDs, overall I like the plasma better. With HD material, there is no contest IMO. HD loves plasma displays, somewhat in the same way DVDs love CRT RPTVs. With SD material, both do an adequate job and I don't see an advantage to either. Of course, viewing angle is much better with the plasma. I like both CRTs and plasmas and rank them 1 and 2 in my personal display jazz-o-meter.

[FlasHBurN]

[QUOTE=spyboy]FlashBurn

I would wait till I could afford a 42 inch plasma. I would look at your decision as primarily about size. You have an excellent direct view, the highest performance technology. While a 37 will give you more screen area for widescreen sources, it is about a wash for 4:3.[/QUOTE]
Okay thanks. I actually wasn't considering the 37" inch over a larger one because of price, but because of size. I would rather not buy a new entertainment center. But, maybe I would be better off.

[Trackman]

[QUOTE=DanP]I also own a 53" Pioneer Elite RPTV (model 510) and a Panasonic th-50px50u. The RPTV takes more special care and feeding (convergence, cleaning out dust from lenses and guns) and while I agree that my Pioneer is preferred for DVDs, overall I like the plasma better. With HD material, there is no contest IMO. HD loves plasma displays, somewhat in the same way DVDs love CRT RPTVs. With SD material, both do an adequate job and I don't see an advantage to either. Of course, viewing angle is much better with the plasma. I like both CRTs and plasmas and rank them 1 and 2 in my personal display jazz-o-meter.[/QUOTE]

In what manner does the RPTV exceed the Panny PDP re dvds?

[DanP]

[QUOTE=Trackman]In what manner does the RPTV exceed the Panny PDP re dvds?[/QUOTE]

It's beyond my ability to explain it well. Perhaps the fact that movie theaters use projectors as does RPTVs. One thing you appreciate owing both technologies....just how important blacks are and how well CRTs convey it. You also realize how directors use blacks and shading to tell their story. As well as plasmas have become conveying blacks, they don't match the fine gradation seen in CRTs.