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View Full Version : My Upconverting Review....


BPWingN
02-08-06, 12:45 PM
The new Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players are due out soon...very soon. They will be phenomenal, and they will be expensive. BUT.....with our new 42" Sony KFE-42A10 HDTV, I wanted something to use now.
There a few upconverting DVD players available, and after having tried these 4 lesser expensive ones out, here's my verdict, and recommendations.

An upconverting DVD player takes the existing DVD picture (480P)and upconverts that picture to either 720p or 1080i. Yes, your HDTV must upconvert (or downconvert)any signal to it's natural resolution, and therefore you could leave it to your TV, but that can present audio lag problems...and most DVD players have slightly better upconverting chips in them. PLUS.....you can connect via HDMI inputs if your TVset has it (if not,only one player I tried will upconvert through any other inputs.)....and stay digital throughout the DVD process, never converting to analog. Mmmkay...enough mumbo jumbo...here's what I found, having bought each of the following, taken them home, and tried them out.

The list of players...
1) Toshiba HD4980
2) Samsung HD850
3) Sony NS70H
4) Panasonic S77

1) Toshiba HD4980. I paid $149.00 CDN

It comes with its' own HDMI cable, whereas the Panasonic is the only other to do so. I liked this player, and though the machine itself looked somewhat flimsy, I found the Picture Quality (PQ) to be quite reasonable. The remote was quite unresponsive unless aimed directly at the player. The reason I no longer own it is the long pauses that would occur (2-3 times a film sometimes). These were not a layer change releted problem, and were random, and not reproducable in the same spot in the film. This seems to be a known issue with this player. Too bad, as it was inexpensive, and reasonable.

2) Samsung HD850. Available for $149.00 CDN

These used to come with an HDMI cable provided, but no longer. When you purchase an HDMI cable, you definately DO NOT need to spend the huge dollars on a Monster brand cable. With digital signals...they either work, or do not. There is no reason to spend $100.00 on a super high grade HDMI cable. A reasonable grade cable will do fine.

The HD850 had a much simpler menu system than the Toshiba....and did not pause, skip or stutter. BUT.....It will not send sound through the HDMI cable when the sound option is set to "Bitstream", which one would use if the player is also connected to an A/V Home Theatre Reciever via the optical/digital output for D/D and DTS surround, as I do. When the audio option is set to “Bitstream” an annoying "HDMI Sound Not Supported" flashes on the TV screen quite a bit, and though it can be turned off in the options menu, the HD850 will not remember this option, and it must be set every time the machine is turned on. Hmmm.....not liking this.
I also found the PQ to be quite grainy and harsh through HDMI, even after lots of tweaking, but since I want to upconvert...this is my only choice of connection, right? NOPE. There is a code that can be entered throught the remote...an unsupported "hack" that enables upconverting through the component cables. I connected component cables, entered the "hack"..and....PRESTO!...I could upconvert through the component cables. Funnily enough, I preferred the PQ this way, and after some tweaking, I thought I'd be happy. Nuh-Uh. I realized I had to make the picture extremely soft and non-sharp for it to be acceptable....and ........I wanted to use HDMI!
NEXT!

3) Sony NS70H $199.00 CDN

No included HDMI cable.....never had it....never will.
This DVD Player gets alot of praise for its' PQ and it does look great hooked up through the HDMI cable. This machine lives up to its' praise for PQ...it is lovely. However, it also receives criticism for a shift in the picture when upconverting to either 720p or 1080i. Somehow, in amongst all it's brains, the Sony squirts the picture out about 1/2" too low. This produces a 1/2' black bar at the top of your monitor. I saw this immediately, and though it isn't a HUGE deal to me personally....why pay for a player that has a known visible flaw, however minor it may be. AND...I just know I'd stare at that little black stripe, until it was all I'd see. LOL! That's just me.
Now, I must confess I never actually brought this one home, but I saw it hooked up at a local A/V store...hooked up to the same display as mine at home. Hmmm....only one left on my list...and it has a potentially HUGE flaw......

4) Panasonic s77. I paid $250.00 CDN

HDMI cable included.
This player recieves universal praise for its' outstanding PQ. It is favorably compared to many players costing 3-4 times as much. It has an amazing amount of options as far as picture and sound controls and settings....though these are very poorly explained in the manual, and could overwhelm some novices.
The HUGE problem with this player, is the amount of macroblocking (an annoying picture problem) seen on some displays. This is only apparent on some displays, and to varying degrees. (Panasonic Plasmas apparently being one of the worst) You don't know if it affects you until you try it out on your set. MAKE SURE THERE IS AN EXCHANGE/RETURN POLICY AT YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE...just in case.
I brought the Panasonic home, and hooked it up through HDMI, and had the Samsung HD850 still connected through component cables. Both machines upconverting to 720p. Perfect. I can A/B the two and see if there's much difference.
The Panasonic (IMHO) blew all the other machines out of the water with its' PQ. Details jump out at you that are not visible on the Samsung. My wife, who has been ho-hum throughout this entire process, immediately noticed the difference.....that is really saying something.
As for the macroblocking problem....yes...it is there...but it is so miniscule as to make it a non-issue…ON MY DISPLAY.

The Panasonic, to my eyes, is truly king of the pack. I must repeat though, that if your set is effected by the macroblocking bug to much of an extent, that you would find this annoying…and some may find it unwatchable.

The Sony, if not for the small horizontal shift, is definately a wonderful looking machine as well.

Phew...sorry about the long post.

I hope this helps some of you.....

Viventis
02-08-06, 01:12 PM
Thanks for the thoughtful review:

My question concerns the Sony player. Did you test to see if the shift issue also occurred at 720p as well as 1080i?

toofargone
02-08-06, 01:35 PM
Nice post BPWingN. Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences.

BPWingN
02-08-06, 02:01 PM
Viventis,

I changed from 720p to 1080i instore, and it was visible in both. I can see how it is a non-issue to some people, as it is quite minor...but there nonetheless.

BillP
02-08-06, 02:15 PM
Thanks for the reviews. You confirmed what many of us have been saying: that the Faroudja players provide better PQ than the non-Faroudja players at the lower price range, provided you do not get MB with your display. The Panny S77 and S97, and the Oppo, are highly recommended and tough to beat in the <$300 price range. If you do get MB, then you're pretty much left with the Sony or Samsung, unless you can increase the budget and consider the Pioneer 59ai.

Villain
02-08-06, 02:17 PM
Excellent info. Thanks!

LUNASDUDE
02-08-06, 02:50 PM
Great review but...you say on the Sony NS70H
"why pay for a player that has a known visible flaw, however minor it may be."

Then some time later, on the Panasonic s77
"The HUGE problem with this player, is the amount of macroblocking (an annoying picture problem) seen on some displays."

Is this not a known visible flaw on Faroudja based players?

"As for the macro blocking problem....yes...it is there...but it is so miniscule as to make it a non-issue…ON MY DISPLAY."

I couldn't agree more!
I have the SonyNS70H and the amount of picture shift "is so miniscule as to make it a non-issue…ON MY DISPLAY."

As for the Panasonic s77, I believe the Sony PQ was as good if not better on my Display than the Panny, which was not very nice since I have one of those displays that shows the MB badly.

BPWingN
02-08-06, 04:05 PM
[QUOTE=LUNASDUDE]Great review but...you say on the Sony NS70H
"why pay for a player that has a known visible flaw, however minor it may be."

Then some time later, on the Panasonic s77
"The HUGE problem with this player, is the amount of macroblocking (an annoying picture problem) seen on some displays."

Is this not a known visible flaw on Faroudja based players?

"As for the macro blocking problem....yes...it is there...but it is so miniscule as to make it a non-issue…ON MY DISPLAY."

I couldn't agree more!
I have the SonyNS70H and the amount of picture shift "is so miniscule as to make it a non-issue…ON MY DISPLAY."

As for the Panasonic s77, I believe the Sony PQ was as good if not better on my Display than the Panny, which was not very nice since I have one of those displays that shows the MB badly.[/QUOTE]



When I posted the reviews, I thought this may come up with the way I worded things. To me (personal opinion) the miniscule macroblocking issue on the s77 was less of an issue than the admittedly minor picture shift with the NS70H....it was the lesser of the two evils...to me.
Having said that, if the macroblocking issue was unacceptable to me, I was quite prepared to purchase the Sony.
I'm glad you're enjoying yours, it is a very nice unit.

LUNASDUDE
02-08-06, 05:38 PM
[QUOTE=BPWingN]When I posted the reviews, I thought this may come up with the way I worded things. To me (personal opinion) the miniscule macroblocking issue on the s77 was less of an issue than the admittedly minor picture shift with the NS70H....it was the lesser of the two evils...to me.
Having said that, if the macroblocking issue was unacceptable to me, I was quite prepared to purchase the Sony.
I'm glad you're enjoying yours, it is a very nice unit.[/QUOTE]

Agreed and the Panny is a very nice unit as well but I have a Panny 52in DLP and they have know issues with each other!
WEIRD! Since there from the same manufacture? Oh well were all slaves to our displays! :rolleyes:
What ever floats you HD boat is a good thing!

apodaca
02-08-06, 05:48 PM
I am confused I have read other posts that claim the Sony KDF-E42A10 @ 720p does not show the shift/compression bug. I was just about to purchase for this very set mainly because of generally better than average Sony DVD playback and ability to play defective or scratched disks easily..

Dazog
02-08-06, 06:04 PM
Surprised you never picked up an OPPO.

I used to have a S97 and i sold it for an OPPO, I am glad i did.

BPWingN
02-08-06, 06:28 PM
[QUOTE=Dazog]Surprised you never picked up an OPPO.

I used to have a S97 and i sold it for an OPPO, I am glad i did.[/QUOTE]

I have read nothing but good things about the Oppo, but I wanted something I could have hands on experience with.....and right now!...because I'm an impatient sort.

BPWingN
02-08-06, 06:32 PM
[QUOTE=apodaca]I am confused I have read other posts that claim the Sony KDF-E42A10 @ 720p does not show the shift/compression bug. I was just about to purchase for this very set mainly because of generally better than average Sony DVD playback and ability to play defective or scratched disks easily..[/QUOTE]


I too expected the 42a10 to not show this at 720p, and was surprised when I saw it. It was quite minor...a touch less than when at 1080i..but there nonetheless.

I'm quite sure you'd be happy with the Sony either way...as I had to stop and think before I grabbed the Panny. As I stated before, if the Panny would have macroblocked significantly..I would have exchanged it for the Sony and been happy.

Villain
02-08-06, 08:22 PM
[QUOTE=BPWingN]I too expected the 42a10 to not show this at 720p, and was surprised when I saw it. It was quite minor...a touch less than when at 1080i..but there nonetheless.

I'm quite sure you'd be happy with the Sony either way...as I had to stop and think before I grabbed the Panny. As I stated before, if the Panny would have macroblocked significantly..I would have exchanged it for the Sony and been happy.[/QUOTE]

Do you/we/anyone know for SURE that this shift results in actual video being lost (ie not displayed) ?

If no actual video is being 'missed', then this shift thing is more an annoyance, correct? But if it is displaying a 1/4" black bar at the expense of 1/4" of VIDEO, then that's crappy.

BPWingN
02-11-06, 01:33 AM
[QUOTE=Villain]Do you/we/anyone know for SURE that this shift results in actual video being lost (ie not displayed) ?

If no actual video is being 'missed', then this shift thing is more an annoyance, correct? But if it is displaying a 1/4" black bar at the expense of 1/4" of VIDEO, then that's crappy.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, Villain.
I'm not sure.

andy sullivan
02-11-06, 10:56 AM
I thought that the Samsung and the Yamaha's also used the Faroudja chips. I am curious as to why you did not compare the newer Samsung 950 and Yamaha 6980. I know they're out there but maybe not readily available. I know Sony is releasing the NS75 soon. I wonder if it will address the shift issue.

BillP
02-11-06, 02:07 PM
[QUOTE=andy sullivan]I thought that the Samsung and the Yamaha's also used the Faroudja chips. I am curious as to why you did not compare the newer Samsung 950 and Yamaha 6980. I know they're out there but maybe not readily available. I know Sony is releasing the NS75 soon. I wonder if it will address the shift issue.[/QUOTE]
The Yamahas do use a Faroudja chip, but the Samsung 941 was the only Samsung to use it. The Sammy 841, 850, and 950 all use a Zoran chip.

os2hoppy
02-11-06, 03:28 PM
[QUOTE=BPWingN]I have read nothing but good things about the Oppo, but I wanted something I could have hands on experience with.....and right now!...because I'm an impatient sort.[/QUOTE]

Being a fellow canuck, I have been looking in canada and have not seen an OPPO advertised or in-store....

Any others seen this unit in canada (B&M / web) ?

Person99
02-12-06, 01:20 AM
[QUOTE=Dazog]Surprised you never picked up an OPPO.

I used to have a S97 and i sold it for an OPPO, I am glad i did.[/QUOTE]

I tried and Oppo and since the S97 bettered it by quite a bit, Oppo went. Oppo was far too soft with a revealing PJ on a large screen. Not to mention lip sync issues.

Dave

philipgomez
02-12-06, 10:53 PM
I picked up the Sony NS70H and hooked it up to my Epson Livingstation (LS47P2) via HDMI>DVI cable. The picture looks great...better than my old player (Pioneer DV333) did via component. There is definitely more detail. I am not getting the picture cutoff that some people have mentioned with the player set to output 720P which is native for my set. Sound is via the digital out and I've not noticed any sync problems. I think it's a pretty good DVD player for the price (about $125).

gkyc
02-13-06, 12:06 AM
[QUOTE=os2hoppy]Being a fellow canuck, I have been looking in canada and have not seen an OPPO advertised or in-store....

Any others seen this unit in canada (B&M / web) ?[/QUOTE]

I found a reseller in Ontario:

complete-it.ca

Price is not too bad either.

George

philjensen
02-14-06, 01:41 PM
I bought an Oppo also too. LOVE it.
Search for "Only best Rated" in google. (I can't post a link yet).

Phil

Yorgi
03-14-06, 10:49 PM
That 5 posts first before you can add links is annoying isn't it? Woohoo...this is my 5th post! Mission accomplished. :p

Dice9
03-16-06, 06:25 PM
For a clear and concise explanation of HDMI, progressive scan and upscaling, you might want to read this article: "HDMI Me" (http://www.ultimateavmag.com/images/newsletter/1105uav.html)

Any comments? :)

TMG
03-17-06, 08:02 AM
Anyone try the Panny S97 or S77 with the current Panny 32" LCD TV ??

Any MB with this combo??