Sorry, StanDef Looks crappy on all HDs

[Jim Gunther]

I purchased a 30 inch High Def set last week. Happens to be Toshiba 30 HFX85.
Same time I "upgraded" from Comcast HD to DISH -(Oops, there goes the Olympics! Grrrrh- Different complaint.).

In any event, I was not able to get Standard Definition to display acceptably. It's just FUZZY. My old technology SONY displays a MUCH better SDTV image.

I had an, apparently, knowledgable sevice guy to my home this morning. He tweaked the HD a bit (it was quite acceptable and even better now) and fooled around with the Standard Definition with no real improvement. Still fuzzy.

DVD is, at least, decent.

As I have another couple weeks to return the set, I asked him which might be a decent upgrade? The Toshiba was not expensive. I'm willing to spend a couple or $300 or so more. I was thinking Samsung 3081.

He says, "Thats just the way it is.. The technology which make High Def so nice, makes the Standard crappy and, really, nobody make a set that diplays both in an equally acceptable basis. It's trade-off"

Now this guy was not employed by the store. I don't think he was trying to prevent a return but, was he BS'ing me?

Thoughts? TIA, Jim

[Q of BanditZ]

The title of your thread is an incorrect overgeneralization that doesn't even apply to what you actually wrote.

You also picked a subpar product in the Toshiba 30HFx85.

High quality HDTVs make everything look better, but it's always going to be "garbage in, garbage out" in terms of signal. If the signal source is suspect, there's no hardware on Earth than overcome that.

In other words: You can't make chicken salad out of chicken s**t.

[mortaldivine]

SD looks better on my 34XBR then on my 27in SD TV after I calibrated the picture settings.

[Q of BanditZ]

[QUOTE=mortaldivine]SD looks better on my 34XBR then on my 27in SD TV after I calibrated the picture settings.[/QUOTE]


Same here.

The SD looks great on my 27 inch Sony WEGA in the living room.

The SD on my XBR960 looks AT LEAST as good, if not better than even that.

Again, it's all about the quality of the gear and the quality of the signal itself. There's also definitely something to be said for a good calibration job, namely ISF.

[SurfingMatt27]

You have a POS Orioshiba that's why your SD cable looks bad, get a sony or Panasonic instead heck even Samsung!!

As what my friends said: Garbage in-Garbage Out.. It's all in the quality of your signal too and if your using good quality shielded cables, RG6 for example like i use, i use a philips brand RG6 cable bought it for less than $10 makes a big difference in PQ if you have a decent well shielded cable.

[kny3twalker]

SDTV looks incredible on my KD-30XS955

as well as on my KDL-V32XBR1

[SurfingMatt27]

Same here SD looks great on my 34HS420 no complaints here!

Your problem is you have a piss poor tv set that's why everything looks crappy, i mean come on DVD should'nt look decent it should look great!!!Why would you settle for a mediocre picture?

If your main concern is a 30" HDTV then i would buy the sony 30xs955 in as heart beat if i seen one.

Good luck in your purchase decision hope you find a great set!

[justsc]

[QUOTE=Jim Gunther]I purchased a 30 inch High Def set last week. Happens to be Toshiba 30 HFX85.
Same time I "upgraded" from Comcast HD to DISH -(Oops, there goes the Olympics! Grrrrh- Different complaint.).

...Now this guy was not employed by the store. I don't think he was trying to prevent a return but, was he BS'ing me?

Thoughts? TIA, Jim[/QUOTE]
Jim,

This is a unfortunate misunderstanding made even worse when a "pro" passes it along.

There's nothing lacking in an HD set regarding its ability to provide SD as well as an "SD" set can.

The problem, as has already been stated, in the signal.

I have Comcast Digital Classic service and receive all local HD channels as well as some others (e.g. Discovery Theater HD). The analog service, referred to usually as Standard Basic or Expanded Basic provides channels 2-82, and the digital service from 100-723. The Comcast tech set-up my gear with the coax cable coming into the set top box (STB) and component cables out to my tv (Sony 34" HD tube set). The HD material is incredible. The SD, the way Comcast set it up was horrendous. A real step down from my older 27" set.

Why?
The analog tuner in the Comcast STB absolutely ruined SD material. My solution was to bypass the STB for the analog channels by inserting a Radio Shack splitter (1GHz) before the STB. Then I sent one split to the STB for Digital channels, and the other split directly to my tv for the analog channels. What a difference!

I suspect that maybe your satellite box may also be murdering your SD signals. Not being a satellite customer I don't know how you could bypass their analog tuner. I suspect you might be able to run either coax, composite or SVideo out to your tv's antanna/cable in port and component out from the STB to your tv's component in port for digital material?

A knowledgeable satellite customer needs to chime in here...

I realize you're getting hammered regarding the Toshiba tv, but SD still does not have to look bad.

Best of Luck!

[Jim Gunther]

Thanks for the quick and no BS replies.
I didn't pay a lot of $$ for this set (I was, perhaps, more focused <no pun> on getting the biggest widescreen tube set that would fit my cabinet.) I hadn't noticed a lot of comments about crappy SD, so, I was really surprised. Especially, when the HD display came around pretty nicely.

I think my cables are O.K. (6 foot HDMI) and my DISH signal is about as strong as can be.

Geez, I hate the idea of carrying back to the dealer.....
Thanks again, Jim

[Q of BanditZ]

[quote=Jim Gunther]Thanks for the quick and no BS replies.
I didn't pay a lot of $$ for this set (I was, perhaps, more focused <no pun> on getting the biggest widescreen tube set that would fit my cabinet.) I hadn't noticed a lot of comments about crappy SD, so, I was really surprised. Especially, when the HD display came around pretty nicely.

I think my cables are O.K. (6 foot HDMI) and my DISH signal is about as strong as can be.

Geez, I hate the idea of carrying back to the dealer.....
Thanks again, Jim[/quote]

If your TV were um...defective, would the store pick it up for you?...

[MaxDam77]

Standards looks way better on my KV30HS420 than my 20" Samsung (non HD) in the bedroom.

[Jim Gunther]

[QUOTE=justsc]Jim,


Why?
The analog tuner in the Comcast STB absolutely ruined SD material. My solution was to bypass the STB for the analog channels by inserting a Radio Shack splitter (1GHz) before the STB. Then I sent one split to the STB for Digital channels, and the other split directly to my tv for the analog channels. What a difference!

I suspect that maybe your satellite box may also be murdering your SD signals. Not being a satellite customer I don't know how you could bypass their analog tuner. I suspect you might be able to run either coax, composite or SVideo out to your tv's antanna/cable in port and component out from the STB to your tv's component in port for digital material?
Best of Luck![/QUOTE]

Heck, that's worth a try. I still have the HD cable box. It'll be worth the time and trouble to try the splitter as you suggest.
I'm not, at all, knowledgable about dish, and I'm somewhat comitted, so, if the splitter solution shows improvement with cable, I'll hope to find an equivalent solution for the DISH receiver (if it's possible).

[Porcupine2]

Jim Gunther, beware there appear to be some Sony and Panasonic fanboys on this forum, I would not completely trust their opinion.

That being said, I agree that the Toshiba (Orion) 30HF85 has a zillion problems and I would also return the set. The Toshibas are not quite as bad as some people say, but I cannot blame the people who rag on Toshiba (Orion) because Toshiba has only brought this upon themselves through their poor quality control in the last 2 years.

It is indeed true that HD TVs invariably sacrifice some of their ability to play SD. This will be true for any HDTV. This is because of one reason....the HDTV standard resolutions of 1920 x 1080i and/or 1280 x 720p are not the same as the SD standard of 640 x 480. Therefore the image must be digitally upscaled and some quality is lost. LCD HDTVs (720p) are the worst for SD. Fortunately CRT HDTVs (1080i) are much better for SD for various reasons. But they will probably still not be quite as good as a normal TV, so I agree with the person who serviced your TV.

That being said the Toshibas have a lot of problems, and as a previous Toshiba owner myself I would be paranoid and simply return the TV like I did. SD should not be THAT bad that would cause a normal person to complain.

The question is, what should you get to replace it? I agree that Sony is a good choice, probably the best choice. If you don't mind the huge size/weight of them then go for it. But I must disagree that Samsung is good. Samsung is the WORST TV maker of all simply because they do not allow you to turn off "Scan Velocity Modulation" which is a stupid gimmicky feature that destroys the fidelity of your displayed image. Panasonics seem decent and I may end up getting one myself but I still have several gripes with them. The biggest one being that their screen (on their 26 incher) only has 400 horizontal lines of resolution!! That's WAY too little. No way can you call that a HDTV. I haven't even seen anyone else mention it, and I can't believe everyone else can be so unobservant as to not notice that. On their website, Panasonic claims the 26" CT-26WX15 has 900 horizontal lines of resolution...what bull. Just looking with my eyes at the actual TV I know that's wrong in 1 second.

[mapson]

Whatever you decide, don't get a Samsung, you'll end up starting another thread about your disappointment with the slimfits. If you are willing to upgrade and want to stay in the CRT and 30" range, your best bet would be the Sony 30xs955.

[Porcupine2]

Jim Gunther, actually before you return the TV you should indeed try out what justsc suggested. It could be that your problem can be resolved in some way and if it can, that's great. Like I said, I agree that HDTVs are slightly less optimal to play SD than a good SDTV, but they should not be THAT bad to cause you to complain.

But you don't need to buy a splitter or anything right away. First just test it yourself to see if what justsc suspects is indeed the cause. Just take your analog coax cable signal (if you still have one? I'm not that knowledgeable either about how these providers work) and pipe it straight into your TV and see if it looks better. If it doesn't then you know you just have to return the Toshiba. If it does look better, then you should go buy the splitter like justsc suggested.

[a1jf1]

[QUOTE=justsc]Jim,

This is a unfortunate misunderstanding made even worse when a "pro" passes it along.

There's nothing lacking in an HD set regarding its ability to provide SD as well as an "SD" set can.

The problem, as has already been stated, in the signal.

I have Comcast Digital Classic service and receive all local HD channels as well as some others (e.g. Discovery Theater HD). The analog service, referred to usually as Standard Basic or Expanded Basic provides channels 2-82, and the digital service from 100-723. The Comcast tech set-up my gear with the coax cable coming into the set top box (STB) and component cables out to my tv (Sony 34" HD tube set). The HD material is incredible. The SD, the way Comcast set it up was horrendous. A real step down from my older 27" set.

Why?
The analog tuner in the Comcast STB absolutely ruined SD material. My solution was to bypass the STB for the analog channels by inserting a Radio Shack splitter (1GHz) before the STB. Then I sent one split to the STB for Digital channels, and the other split directly to my tv for the analog channels. What a difference!

I suspect that maybe your satellite box may also be murdering your SD signals. Not being a satellite customer I don't know how you could bypass their analog tuner. I suspect you might be able to run either coax, composite or SVideo out to your tv's antanna/cable in port and component out from the STB to your tv's component in port for digital material?

A knowledgeable satellite customer needs to chime in here...

I realize you're getting hammered regarding the Toshiba tv, but SD still does not have to look bad.

Best of Luck![/QUOTE]

This may be a silly question, but how do you switch between the analog and digital channels? If there is only one place to plug the cable into (on the TV) then do you have to manually switch the splitter?

[Jim Gunther]

[QUOTE=a1jf1]This may be a silly question, but how do you switch between the analog and digital channels? If there is only one place to plug the cable into (on the TV) then do you have to manually switch the splitter?[/QUOTE]

I'm guessing analog could come in thru the antenna/cable and the digital thru the S Cable or component input (ie ?Video 2)
or Video 1 and video 2

[justsc]

[QUOTE=Jim Gunther]I'm guessing analog could come in thru the antenna/cable and the digital thru the S Cable or component input (ie ?Video 2)
or Video 1 and video 2[/QUOTE]
Jim,

That's exactly right.

Using the splitter approach, you have one coax line coming in to the tv's antenna/cable port and the component cables coming from the STB.

So, in my situation, if I want to watch good SD, I just hit the "Input" button on my remote and select "TV." Then I can watch channels 2-82 like I would with a regular tv, and without the mangled signal from the STB's poor analog tuner. To watch the digital channels I hit "Input" on the remote and select "Video 5."

[kny3twalker]

but justsc he has Dish not cable

there will be nothing analogue on his setup

he can try svideo for SD channels and use component for HD (or maybe HDMI)

but splitting his signal will not do any good, unless you are referring to getting over the air analogue which I could not imagine would be better than Dish SD signals

I think the bigger difference is the scaler on the TV, Sony, Panasonic and older Toshibas have excellent scaler for SD content
the newer models use poor quality electronics meaning poor quality scalers, and furthermore they are known for poor quality control

I would really consider another TV, maybe your experience will be better

good luck

and I do not think saying SD looks good on my TV is a BS comment

[Jim Gunther]

[QUOTE=kny3twalker]but justsc he has Dish not cable

there will be nothing analogue on his setup

[/QUOTE]

Sorry for the confusion. I DO have DISH but I intend to experiment (Saturday) using the Comcast High Def cable box. I still have the service.
If the splitter or bypass works (that is, if I get DECENT Standard Def display), then I'll have to find a similar workaroud for the DISH or revert back to the Comcast cabe.

Frankly, I wouldn't have gone through all this nonsense with the Satellite if I had known that DISH was NOT carrying network High Def broadcasts. I THOUGHT if the local stations had HD, then the DISH local station option would pick it up in HD. Not the case. Shame on me: I certainly spent enough time here researching the darn thing.

[kny3twalker]

Sorry for the confusion. I DO have DISH but I intend to experiment (Saturday) using the Comcast High Def cable box. I still have the service.
If the splitter or bypass works (that is, if I get DECENT Standard Def display), then I'll have to find a similar workaroud for the DISH or revert back to the Comcast cabe.

there is no way analogue cable will be better than digital satellite

Frankly, I wouldn't have gone through all this nonsense with the Satellite if I had known that DISH was NOT carrying network High Def broadcasts. I THOUGHT if the local stations had HD, then the DISH local station option would pick it up in HD. Not the case. Shame on me: I certainly spent enough time here researching the darn thing.

you have a couple options

you can use an antenna with your Dish HD receiver as long as it can tune over the air HD stations or you can buy a TV with an ATSC tuner

you can get a ATSC tuner with QAM capabilities
and then keep just analogue cable service, that should be enough to get the locals in HD over cable
or you can get a TV with an ATSC tuner which supports QAM

Dish did pick up the Voom channels, so theyshould have alot of HD content

[Jim Gunther]

>>>Dish did pick up the Voom channels, so theyshould have alot of HD content

I'm trying not to be negative but, other that ESPN2 HD (for NHRA Drag Racing), I'm underwhelmed with the HD content. I signed up for "The Works" ?Platinum? but, with the lack of network HD it doesn't seem much better than my Comcast - value-wise.
I admit, my perception is biased because of my high-expectations.

I'll update the result of my work-arounds over the weekend.
Thanks guy, Jim

[justsc]

[QUOTE=Jim Gunther]>>>Dish did pick up the Voom channels, so theyshould have alot of HD content

I'm trying not to be negative but, other that ESPN2 HD (for NHRA Drag Racing), I'm underwhelmed with the HD content. I signed up for "The Works" ?Platinum? but, with the lack of network HD it doesn't seem much better than my Comcast - value-wise.
I admit, my perception is biased because of my high-expectations.

I'll update the result of my work-arounds over the weekend.
Thanks guy, Jim[/QUOTE]
Jim,

Here in the SF Bay Area we get a good compliment of local HD channels via Comcast. I receive Fox (channel 2/702), NBC (channel 3/11), CBS (channel 5/705), ABC (channel 7/707) and PBS (channel 9/709). With the Digital Classic service I also receive in HD Discovery HD Theater (channel 722), INHD1 (channel 719), INHD2 (channel 720) and ESPN HD (channel 723).

That's pretty rich for the lowest tier of Digital Cable service. This weekend as you run your test, if all goes well you should be able to pick up your locals too. I am totally unfamiliar with using a QAM tuner, so I don't know how you will scan for such, but from your notes it seems it won't be that hard for you to decipher.

Good Luck and please let us know how it goes... ;)

[bradman]

I found that getting the 6412 phase 3 HD box from the cable co. really improved the analogue channels.They looked awful with the first gen 6412 on my Sony HD CRT.

[justsc]

[QUOTE=bradman]I found that getting the 6412 phase 3 HD box from the cable co. really improved the analogue channels.They looked awful with the first gen 6412 on my Sony HD CRT.[/QUOTE]
Have you had any problems with the HDMI interface? I've avoided switching boxes because of somewhat widespread complaints about the Phase 3 box's HDMI issues, and other issues in general. Sorry for being so vague - I just caqn't recall where I read those reports.

[bradman]

[QUOTE=justsc]Have you had any problems with the HDMI interface? I've avoided switching boxes because of somewhat widespread complaints about the Phase 3 box's HDMI issues, and other issues in general. Sorry for being so vague - I just caqn't recall where I read those reports.[/QUOTE]
I have the set hooked up with the HDMI cable that came with my Samsung DVD player and have had zero issues.
The two tuners,bigger hard drive,and better remote also are a plus.
My cable company is Insight in KY and I believe the box is running the latest firmware.

[Mathesar]

Standard cable looks excellent on my Sony 32HS510 ,Heck some channels look near DVD quality! If my XBR960 displays cable at least as good ill be a happy camper (should be here next week).

[nick2003]

[QUOTE=justsc]
My solution was to bypass the STB for the analog channels by inserting a Radio Shack splitter (1GHz) before the STB. Then I sent one split to the STB for Digital channels, and the other split directly to my tv for the analog channels. What a difference!
[/QUOTE]

Good idea, I think i'll do that with mine thanks.

[nick2003]

Wow, What a diffrence! I can actually stand to watch SDTV again lol

[jeri534]

I tried doing that on my new 30XS955 and it didnt look that much better than running through my STB....

[Jim Gunther]

Well - I did the splitter thing with the Comcast cable box over the weekend.
It seemed to make a big difference. That is Standard Def was much more tolerable (quite acceptable, actually) on the analog station. Of course, I was able to watch the Daytona 500 and the Olympics in HD utilizing Colorstream 1 input with Red/Green/Blue cables. VERY nice.
Course, later in the day, I swithced back to DISH (actually just utilized the HDMI input) and enjoyed UCONN Women Basketball on ESPN2 in High Def.
Had a computer issue yesterday, so, couldn't post earlier. Thanks for the suggestions.

Now I have a dilemma.
Except for lack of ESPN2-HD, I'd probably switch back to Comcast cable. Just swallow the $200. +/- DISH installation fees. However, MAYBE I'll try an over-the-air antenna to see if I can get local HD broadcasts.
I'll also post a note on the DISH forum to see if there is any way to "turn down" the signal. I guess that's the only way I can describe the standard broadcast picture - it's like "too loud"
I'll update when/if I find any work-arounds.

[IndyPetey]

I've seen a couple of times that component is better than HDMI for the HD/digital cable stuff, is this true?

And also, I have a STB, would I be better off to use the splitting technique or use S-Video or Composite cables for the analog channels (2-82).

[crcostel]

This may only be a temporary solution, though. In my area (Chicago) you have to get a Comcast STB to get anything but the locals. I was a little shocked considering I still have analog cable.

I'm guessing they'll do the same to you all in the next year or two.

[biker19]

[QUOTE=crcostel]This may only be a temporary solution, though. In my area (Chicago) you have to get a Comcast STB to get anything but the locals. I was a little shocked considering I still have analog cable.

I'm guessing they'll do the same to you all in the next year or two.[/QUOTE]
The digital versions of the locals should be on there in clear QAM and might look better than the analog versions. You don't need an STB for that if your TV has a QAM tuner.

[Artwood]

The HD Direct-view set that did the best with SD was the Sony 40XBR800 because it could put out 960i a perfect multiple of 480i material--you basically got denser 480i with no artifacts! The 16:9 material covered roughly 37-inches diagonally. Of course it wasn't as good a quality of HD as the Sony 34XBR960 because it didn't have a SFP tube but I think it did do better on SD material!

[tacitus]

[QUOTE=kny3twalker]SDTV looks incredible on my KD-30XS955
[/QUOTE]

On my 30XS955 SD looks great as well - but I did have to do some basic calibration (in the service menu) on my SD cable feed - remove edge enhancements, for example. Out of the box the SD from my cable box was horrible. Oddly enough all my other feeds including over-the-air HD and the non-box SD/HD were good out of the box with only a little fiddling (in the normal menu).

[tacitus]

[QUOTE=justsc]
<snip>

The SD, the way Comcast set it up was horrendous. A real step down from my older 27" set.

Why?
The analog tuner in the Comcast STB absolutely ruined SD material. My solution was to bypass the STB for the analog channels by inserting a Radio Shack splitter (1GHz) before the STB. Then I sent one split to the STB for Digital channels, and the other split directly to my tv for the analog channels. What a difference!

<snip>
[/QUOTE]

Which Comcast STB are you using? I noticed the same thing the STB cable input for SD was definitely worse than any of the other feeds; and I had to do simple service menu calibration for it to look great. I am using Scientific Atlantic 8100 (I believe?) DVR. Oddly enough it never really occurred to me that tuner in the box might be the actual problem - it should have. I unfortunately do not recall if the digital streams were bad from the box as well before the calibration.