Is anyone considering the Pioneer 50" 1080p PRO-FHD1?

[neonleon29]

Just wondering if anyone is considering this TV. It seems like there is a lot of excitment for the 65" 1080p Panasonic coming out but not much talk about the Pioneer. I gues a lot of it has to do with getting so much more screen size for about the same price. My only problem is 65" might be too big for my viewing area. If the 58" Panasonic turns out to be 1080p, that might be a good fit. If not, all I'm really left with is the 50" 1080p Pioneer. And I guess the one big question I have is if it would really be worth the extra cost for 1080p at 50"? Well, I was just wondering if anyone else was looking forward to the release of the Pioneer 1080p.

[Influence]

I'm very anxious to see the new panel as well. Without a doubt, it will certainly be sharper looking (the advantages of greater resolution, i.e more pixels). What has got me more intrigued is the advantages that the brand new panel design may offer: lower black level, increased contrast, improved color accuracy (though that will be hard to do, as the Elites are pretty much dead on accurate already in Pure mode), and possibly improved scaling. Your viewing distance will make a difference in perceived image improvements as well. If you are going to be 15 feet from a 50" panel, I doubt that your eyes will be able to discern much improvement by going to a 1080P panel. If you are 7-10 feet, then you should definitely notice that the panel appears sharper (of course the scaler has much to do with this). Obvously, if you feed a true 1080P input into the new 1080P pioneer panel, it will be sharper than feeding the same image (albeit downconverted to 1080i or 720P) on the 1130HD.

I would imagine the reason for the excitement about the new Panasonic 65" 1080P panel is mostly due to the size/price ratio everyone is expecting. In case you haven't noticed, the majority of people on this board are not exactly videophiles, but more "normal" everyday users who are wisely using the internet to make more informed decisions, which is a great thing. To this type of person, price/performance ratio is far more important than absolute performance, hence the reason for a higher ratio of Panasonic to Pioneer owners (or Fujitsu/Runco/Marantz/Loewe for that matter). Since Pioneer has finally began to drop their prices (and with the unavailability of the Panny models), you have seen many more people on this board joining the Pioneer ranks, which is a good thing. Competition is good for the consumer, we really don't want to see one company with 75% of the market share.

I think people have been saying the new 65" 1080P panny might list around 10K. Personally, I don't think that will be the case, more like a 15K list, and selling for more like 11-13K via the usual sellers. After all, it is a 65" panel. With the new Pioneer already at a published 10K list, either Pioneer has made a big mistake (personally, I think the list should be more like 7-8K) and will need to drop their prices quickly, or risk extremely poor sales.

However, with the reports that came in from CES, it is pretty much unanimous that the 1080P Pioneer had the best image at the show from a flat panel, with the 65" Panny taking second place. I was not at CES this year, so I didn't get the chance to form my own opinion. Wait for reviews from the established mags (Perfect Vision, Home Theater, etc), or better yet, from your own eyes, before making any calls.

I hoped that the 58" Panny was going to be 1080P, but it looks like that is not going to happen. With the lack of official information from Panasonic on this display, I'm starting to doubt if there even will be a 58" model.

Damn, I wrote a novel here. Sorry.

[madshi]

I agree with Influence, apart from three points:

(1) According to most reports I've read the best flat panel on CES was SED. 2nd one Pioneer FHD1.

(2) Influence sounds a bit as if the Pioneer plasmas would be generally better than the Panasonics and that people only choose the Panasonics because they're cheaper. I do not agree here. A lot of us are choosing Panasonic commercial models, because they accept native rate, which the Pioneer consumer models don't. And the Pioneer commercials are usually using outdated panel technology. So for me the reason for choosing the commercial Pany was NOT the price.

(3) I think the 65" Panasonic will be cheaper than Influence suggests.

[Elemental1]

[QUOTE=Influence]
I think people have been saying the new 65" 1080P panny might list around 10K. Personally, I don't think that will be the case, more like a 15K list, and selling for more like 11-13K via the usual sellers. After all, it is a 65" panel. With the new Pioneer already at a published 10K list, either Pioneer has made a big mistake (personally, I think the list should be more like 7-8K) and will need to drop their prices quickly, or risk extremely poor sales.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree that it must be higher than just $10k for that 65". Just look at the list/street prices on the current 65" commercial Panasonics.
Also, you would think companies would learn to not get arrogant with their pricing structure. This is a control/greed mentality like Apple, IBM, and many others have had and look what it did to them. It's 'short term profit' is better than 'long term profit' thinking.
Pioneer better get it together or they will suffer the same fate, I don't care how good their products are.

[Influence]

[QUOTE=madshi]I agree with Influence, apart from three points:

(1) According to most reports I've read the best flat panel on CES was SED. 2nd one Pioneer FHD1.

Well, I was referring to products with announced ship dates, not "Vaporware." Plus, the SEDs displayed so far are still relatively "tiny." I really hope that they can get the technology out the door soon, preferably by summer time so I can possibly buy one. I'm getting sick and tired of waiting for my new TV.

(2) Influence sounds a bit as if the Pioneer plasmas would be generally better than the Panasonics and that people only choose the Panasonics because they're cheaper. I do not agree here. A lot of us are choosing Panasonic commercial models, because they accept native rate, which the Pioneer consumer models don't. And the Pioneer commercials are usually using outdated panel technology. So for me the reason for choosing the commercial Pany was NOT the price.

Not really. I said they have a better price/performance ratio than the Pioneers, which is important to most people, including me, though I will often spend 20-50% extra to get an extra 10% performance if I can swing it (I truly LOATHE "buyer's remorse). Most people on this forum are not like that, and maybe I shouldn't be either. In most arenas, the Pioneers offer no advantages over a Panasonic (and the Pannys have advantages in certain areas as well), hence the better price/performance ratio of the panasonis displays.

Also, I wasn't really referring to the commercial models, as most consumers in the US do not buy those models but the consumer ones, i.e. the ones displayed in the local Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. Percentage wise, the number of folks who feed their plasma with a high end scaler is relatively low, though it is certainly higher in the AVS community. Your point about native rate acceptance is well taken though, as it can offer noticeable advantages over a built in scaler. Personally, when you are spending this much money on any of these displays, I don't think you should have to spend another $1500+ on a quality scaler, and deal with the added hardware, wires, remote setup, etc, but that is me. Though it certainly can help achieve the best picture possible. The general consumer is NOT going to go this route.

(3) I think the 65" Panasonic will be cheaper than Influence suggests.[/QUOTE]

I hope so as well, because then I may actually be getting one! I've put a 7K cap on my next set, as it will be outdated in 12 months anyway. I doubt I'll be getting a 65" 1080P panel for 7K, even with my friends in the AV business who hook me up with the great discounts.

[pddr1]

does anyone have any idea if the pro-fhd1 is the next generation of the 1130hd, or will their be an "1140 hd" being sold alongside the 1080p model?

[neonleon29]

Thanks for the replies guys. I also read the SEDs looked great. But it doesn't seem like they will be around any time soon. As for the Pioneers, they are talking a June release. From what I have read on the other threads here, there have been rumors that MSRP for both the Pioneer 50" 1080p and the Panasonic 65" 1080p will MSRP for around $8000. Not sure how true that is though. Someone calculated the Panasonic price by what it was selling for in Japan. I guess only time will tell. Luckily, we don't have to wait too much longer. I'm hoping the Panasonic does come in at a comparable price to the Pioneers. That way Pioneer would have to come down in price to stay competitive because of the huge difference in size of the two displays.

By the way, I would be viewing at around 10 feet. But other locations in the room would be as close as 6 feet. That is why I'm considering 1080p. Do you think I could get away with another resolution at that distance?

[westa6969]

So when in the world does Pio do a new 61"? They are close to 2 years running on current 61" and the 1410 while the 50" has had 3-4 transitions in that time. Is Pio just giving up the large panel market to Panasonic or try to pass off older NEC Panels as new by rebadging? Why haven't they transtioned the 61" to the panel similar to the 5060?:)

[tdavis21484]

[QUOTE=westa6969]So when in the world does Pio do a new 61"? They are close to 2 years running on current 61" and the 1410 while the 50" has had 3-4 transitions in that time. Is Pio just giving up the large panel market to Panasonic or try to pass off older NEC Panels as new by rebadging? Why haven't they transtioned the 61" to the panel similar to the 5060?:)[/QUOTE]

I wish they'd go ahead and do it, but they're such a tiny part of the market, maybe Pioneer just figures they'll try to cement their currently rather niche market and widen it a bit before they invest in a new 61"...or maybe they've got some other trick up their sleeve.

[Jason Priestley]

So a 50" pioneer is coming out in June???? Hmmm I may have to hold off on the 1130...

[SledgeHammer]

They said the Pio will accept 1080p input and so will the Panny 1080p's. I'd rather have the Panny because I think it looks nicer (can't stand the glossy Pios).

[optivity]

[QUOTE=neonleon29]Is anyone considering the Pioneer 50" 1080p PRO-FHD1?[/QUOTE]Because this first generation "monitor" is so expensive and "the Pro-FHD1 will not be equipped with any sort of tuning capability" (http://www.cnet.com/4831-11405_1-6412639.html?tag=txt) I'll pass on this one. For ~$8000 I expect a lot more bang for my 1080p PDP buck.

[cajieboy]

[QUOTE=westa6969]So when in the world does Pio do a new 61"? They are close to 2 years running on current 61" and the 1410 while the 50" has had 3-4 transitions in that time. Is Pio just giving up the large panel market to Panasonic or try to pass off older NEC Panels as new by rebadging? Why haven't they transtioned the 61" to the panel similar to the 5060?:)[/QUOTE]

This is a question that has been rolling around in my mind for quite some time, as this is in the ball park size for my next HT upgrade. The optimist side thinks Pioneer must be working on one cutting edge bad mama-jama 61"er...a PRO-FHD61 1080p, w/all the features of the upcoming Panny 65 but more!! A guy can dream can't he? :D

[tdavis21484]

[QUOTE=Jason Priestley]So a 50" pioneer is coming out in June???? Hmmm I may have to hold off on the 1130...[/QUOTE]

Yes, but it will not replace the 1130, only supplement it. Not real sure whether they'll update the 1130 around then, but my guess is probably not.

[SledgeHammer]

[QUOTE=optivity]Because this first generation "monitor" is so expensive and "the Pro-FHD1 will not be equipped with any sort of tuning capability" (http://www.cnet.com/4831-11405_1-6412639.html?tag=txt) I'll pass on this one. For ~$8000 I expect a lot more bang for my 1080p PDP buck.[/QUOTE]

What do you need a tuner for? your rabbit ears??? LOL... since even if you have a tuner, you'd need a seperate set top box for everything except OTA, a built in tuner is something I'd rather NOT pay for.

[cajieboy]

[QUOTE=SledgeHammer]What do you need a tuner for? your rabbit ears??? LOL... since even if you have a tuner, you'd need a seperate set top box for everything except OTA, a built in tuner is something I'd rather NOT pay for.[/QUOTE]

What about P&P and PIP??

[SledgeHammer]

[QUOTE=cajieboy]What about P&P and PIP??[/QUOTE]

How is having or not having a tuner going to break that? You can't PIP/P&P from a STB anyways cuz the tuner is in the STB.

[ws6whiteshark]

[QUOTE=SledgeHammer]How is having or not having a tuner going to break that? You can't PIP/P&P from a STB anyways cuz the tuner is in the STB.[/QUOTE]

What's an STB??? :D

Scott

[cajieboy]

[QUOTE=SledgeHammer]How is having or not having a tuner going to break that? You can't PIP/P&P from a STB anyways cuz the tuner is in the STB.[/QUOTE]

Guess again. I'm doing P&P (Picture & Picture) on my 40XBR as I type this post. I can have various combinations of 2 screens, ie. a 16:9 HD broadcast on the left side, and a 4:3 SD screen on the right side. I can increase & decrease the sizes of the two screens at will, and can switch audio from left to right. This ALL happens within the TV w/multiple tuners and can accept an external tuner to use from a STB or OTA or DVD or whatever, depending on input selections. My SA8300HD STB also has a PIP function but I never use it it, and produces a crappy pic.

[cajieboy]

[QUOTE=ws6whiteshark]What's an STB??? :D

Scott[/QUOTE]

A rare asian form of tuberculosis.

[Vashti]

[QUOTE=ws6whiteshark]What's an STB??? :D

Scott[/QUOTE]

It's a set top box - like a cable box which acts as a tuner, etc.

[optivity]

[QUOTE=SledgeHammer]What do you need a tuner for? your rabbit ears??? LOL... since even if you have a tuner, you'd need a seperate set top box for everything except OTA, a built in tuner is something I'd rather NOT pay for.[/QUOTE]Dude... you got to read a few more threads... for those of us who currently married to our CATV provider's program source... Cable --> CableCARD --> PDPs ATSC Tuner + internal MPEG decoder + deinterlacing/scaling chip = the best picture. ;)

[optivity]

[QUOTE=cajieboy]What about P&P and PIP??[/QUOTE][quote=SledgeHammer]How is having or not having a tuner going to break that? You can't PIP/P&P from a STB anyways cuz the tuner is in the STB.[/quote]If you want "true" PIP/PAP/POP/Split Screen support... the only way to achieve this is if your TV is equipped with "dual" ATSC Tuners; even Dell :eek: provides this capability so why doesn't Panasonic & Pioneer? :rolleyes: IMO a 2-way CableCARD is also required. Support for native 1080p w/HDMI... and an IEEE/1394 port would be nice (although that's pushing it).

[size=1]You can't build a better box with a SledgeHammer.[/size]

[neonleon29]

The NEC has PIP. Maybe Pioneer will incorporate it into their consumer model if they have one. The reason I liked the Pioneer is because some of my viewing positions will be from about 6 feet. I am concerned about SDE. I figured with the 1080p TV, I wouldn't need to worry about this. But PIP is a feature I would like to have.

[SledgeHammer]

Cable?? Whats that?? :D. If you have OTA or CableCard, then yeah, you need a tuner in the TV to do split screen PROVIDING you don't need a STB. A lot of cable companies dont have CableCard yet and a lot of TVs dont. Then there is the whole issue of getting digital output from your TV into an AVR (not to mention actually getting a digital signal in the first place 1 - 99 on cable is still analog folks and still horrible PQ), but thats getting off topic :). For satellite, you need a STB (so a built in tuner is useless), so PIP/P&P won't even work through the TV.

[billybob_jcv]

I could see it would be cool if a dual-tuner sat TV STB had the option of 2 separate outputs for a PIP-capable display. (I don't recall seeing that?) Of course, if you have a dual-tuner dvr there's very little reason to have PIP - just record the 2 programs simulataneously and watch 'em separately at your leisure. :)

[cajieboy]

[QUOTE=billybob_jcv]I could see it would be cool if a dual-tuner sat TV STB had the option of 2 separate outputs for a PIP-capable display. (I don't recall seeing that?) Of course, if you have a dual-tuner dvr there's very little reason to have PIP - just record the 2 programs simulataneously and watch 'em separately at your leisure. :)[/QUOTE]

I prefer "PAP" (Picture And Picture) rather than "PIP", but that's just me. The reason it is important to me is the same reason it is important to most people that have a strong interest in sports...and I'll throw in NEWS programs as well. For me, it's Football, both NCAA & NFL. Many times during a regular season, there will be two outstanding games on at the same time, and the ability to watch both & switch audio back & forth on command is a feature I will not live w/o now that I've had this ability for the past 3 years.

BTW, Avid Sports Fans rarely record a game as it is the "LIVE" event that pushes our buttons. If you missed the game, most folks just watch the highlight reels on ESPN, but since you already know the end score & outcome it pretty much takes the air out of the ball, so to speak.

Sledge, you're still giving out false info on PIP & PAP. It's the TV, NOT the STB as Optivity pointedly posted above.

[SledgeHammer]

I prefer "PAP" (Picture And Picture) rather than "PIP", but that's
Sledge, you're still giving out false info on PIP & PAP. It's the TV, NOT the STB as Optivity pointedly posted above.

No, thats not what I said. I said if you have an analog signal or OTA or (as I later added) CableCard going DIRECTLY into the TV you can do PIP & PAP (another clarification) ON DIFFERENT CHANNELS provided the TV has a built in tuner. If on the other hand, you are going through a STB like an analog cable box, a digital cable box, or a SAT, you can NOT do PIP or PAP regardless of if you have a tuner because the STB only gives the TV one channel.

Clarification: To me, PIP & PAP is viewing two DIFFERENT channels at the same time. You can NOT do that if you are going through a STB regardless of the TV and its features because the TV is only getting one channel at a time.

Now PIPing or PAPing two different VIDEO INPUTS is not what I was refering to, thats a function of the TV and works regardless of if you have a built in tuner or not.

Optivity CLEARLY pointed out he is refering to an ATSC tuner. And I stand by my original statement. If I have a STB like a cable box (analog or digital) or a SAT box and feed the output of that box into the TV, no number of tuners in the TV is going to allow you to PIP or PAP DIFFERENT channels at the same time because the STBs are only outputting one channel.

If you are going directly into the TV with a analog or OTA signal then yes, you need a dual tuner TV and a single tuner TV will not be able to do it. But a dual tuner TV can not do it if its getting fed from a STB.

[thefarns]

[QUOTE=Influence]I'm very anxious to see the new panel as well. Without a doubt, it will certainly be sharper looking (the advantages of greater resolution, i.e more pixels). What has got me more intrigued is the advantages that the brand new panel design may offer: lower black level, increased contrast, improved color accuracy (though that will be hard to do, as the Elites are pretty much on accurate already in Pure mode), and possibly improved scaling. Your viewing distance will make a difference in perceived image improvements as well. If you are going to be 15 feet from a 50" panel, I doubt that your eyes will be able to discern much improvement by going to a 1080P panel. If you are 7-10 feet, then you should definitely notice that the panel appears sharper (of course the scaler has much to do with this). Obvously, if you feed a true 1080P input into the new 1080P pioneer panel, it will be sharper than feeding the same image (albeit downconverted to 1080i or 720P) on the 1130HD.

I would imagine the reason for the excitement about the new Panasonic 65" 1080P panel is mostly due to the size/price ratio everyone is expecting. In case you haven't noticed, the majority of people on this board are not exactly videophiles, but more "normal" everyday users who are wisely using the internet to make more informed decisions, which is a great thing. To this type of person, price/performance ratio is far more important than absolute performance, hence the reason for a higher ratio of Panasonic to Pioneer owners (or Fujitsu/Runco/Marantz/Loewe for that matter). Since Pioneer has finally began to drop their prices (and with the unavailability of the Panny s), you have seen many more people on this board joining the Pioneer ranks, which is a good thing. Competition is good for the consumer, we really don't want to see one company with 75% of the market share.

I think people have been saying the new 65" 1080P panny might list around 10K. Personally, I don't think that will be the case, more like a 15K list, and selling for more like 11-13K via the usual sellers. After all, it is a 65" panel. With the new Pioneer already at a published 10K list, either Pioneer has made a big mistake (personally, I think the list should be more like 7-8K) and will need to drop their prices quickly, or risk extremely poor sales.

However, with the reports that came in from CES, it is pretty much unanimous that the 1080P Pioneer had the best image at the show from a flat panel, with the 65" Panny taking second place. I was not at CES this year, so I didn't get the chance to form my own opinion. Wait for reviews from the established mags (Perfect Vision, Home Theater, etc), or better yet, from your own eyes, before making any calls.

I hoped that the 58" Panny was going to be 1080P, but it looks like that is not going to happen. With the lack of official information from Panasonic on this display, I'm starting to doubt if there even will be a 58" .

Damn, I wrote a novel here. Sorry.[/QUOTE]

The NEC 61XR4A was delivered, set up and had 3 noticeable pixels on side quarter of panel. Dealer will take back despite NEC policy not to accept below 3 center pixels out. Dealer offers Marantz 61" to replace the NEC noting they have the same "glass" and maybe the same electronic guts. Both offered around $$$. Now I read the Panasonic 65" 1080p is coming soon and may be MRSP at or below $10,000. I also read about IR problems in the NEC. What's a novice to do? :rolleyes:

Any suggestions on accepting the Marantz vs. waiting a couple months for the 1080p displays to arrive?

[neonleon29]

thefarns,
I haven't heard anything about the Marantz plasmas. The NEC plasmas have been getting very good reviews. From what I have read, they are very comparable to the Pannys and Pioneers. As for 1080p plasmas, I think there are only two coming out this year. They are the Pioneer 50" and the Panasonic 65". I think the native resolution for the Pioneer is 1920x1080 and the Panasonic is 1366x768.

If you are willing to wait, I would wait for the new 1080p displays over the Marantz. But they will end up costing you more.

[cajieboy]

The Panasonic Plasma 65"er (TH-65PX600) will be 1080p. To be released sometime late August or early Fall 2006.

[neonleon29]

From what I'm seeing and reading, it is going to cost you if you want to be one of the first with a 1080p plasma. The Pioneer and Panny look like they are going to be very expensive. Not sure if the price difference between a 1080p TV and a 768p TV will be worth it. I don't understand why the price is almost double for the capability of 1080p input. That seems pretty steep. But it is something I really want!!

[mkoesel]

[QUOTE=neonleon29]I don't understand why the price is almost double for the capability of 1080p input. That seems pretty steep. But it is something I really want!![/QUOTE]

Where the Panasonic is concerned the price will not be anywhere near double. Well, unless you believe recent claims of $20k which are flatly preposterous IMHO.

[neonleon29]

All plamas that are bigger than 60" cost over 10 Gs. That is why I think the 65" will sell for around $15,000.

[neonleon29]

June is fast approaching. Is anyone considering one of these bad boys?

[billybob_jcv]

Nope - I don't have anywhere near the disposable income required to be an early adopter. ;)

[plazman]

[QUOTE=thefarns]The NEC 61XR4A was delivered, set up and had 3 noticeable pixels on side quarter of panel. Dealer will take back despite NEC policy not to accept below 3 center pixels out. Dealer offers Marantz 61" to replace the NEC noting they have the same "glass" and maybe the same electronic guts. Both offered around $$$. Now I read the Panasonic 65" 1080p is coming soon and may be MRSP at or below $10,000. I also read about IR problems in the NEC. What's a novice to do? :rolleyes:

Any suggestions on accepting the Marantz vs. waiting a couple months for the 1080p displays to arrive?[/QUOTE]


I believe the NEC 61 inch plasma has not been updated for 2005/2006 (AFAIK). At 65 inch the difference in resolution from 768 to 1080 may be worth upgrading to (I'm sure it makes a difference). At 50 inch it's hard to tell the difference from more than a couple of feet (IMHO) :)

[neonleon29]

I hear ya on that. I'm not sure why 1080p should have such a premium price over the other resolutions. I'm guessing the picture will be better since there shouldn't be any processing done to the signal. But for double the price of the current 50" plasmas out there, not sure if it is really going to be worth it. Especially at the 50" screen size.
I won't be purchasing a TV until early next year, but I still would love to hear some first hand reviews of this set. That would help me determine if I really need a 1080p set or if I should just stick with a 768p. The main viewing position will be from 9 ft. But if you aren't at the main viewing position, you could be as close as 6 ft. The last thing I want is SDE for anyone watching.

[Elemental1]

[QUOTE=neonleon29]I hear ya on that. I'm not sure why 1080p should have such a premium price over the other resolutions. I'm guessing the picture will be better since there shouldn't be any processing done to the signal. But for double the price of the current 50" plasmas out there, not sure if it is really going to be worth it. Especially at the 50" screen size.
I won't be purchasing a TV until early next year, but I still would love to hear some first hand reviews of this set. That would help me determine if I really need a 1080p set or if I should just stick with a 768p. The main viewing position will be from 9 ft. But if you aren't at the main viewing position, you could be as close as 6 ft. The last thing I want is SDE for anyone watching.[/QUOTE]

I do want to see 1080p sets be the norm soon but the current Panasonics HD resolutions are just phenomenal. SDE can't be seen much at all even close up. I guess it depends on your plasma and source but source material is going to need to get better for 1080p plasmas to make them worth it.

[AlexRust]

Does anybody knows when it will be in the stores.
Thanks.

[neonleon29]

[QUOTE=AlexRust]Does anybody knows when it will be in the stores.
Thanks.[/QUOTE]

I haven't heard much about the release. They were saying June, but I haven't seen anything yet.

[cpcat]

There was a report over in the 7th gen pio thread that a BB warehouse had one already.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=672745&page=11&pp=30

[neonleon29]

I thought they were trying to get this TV out by the World Cup. Only one more day to meet that schedule. I'm guessing no one has seen one yet since there is barely a peep about it. I can't even get on to Pioneer's website. Still looking forward to hearing some reviews on this display.

[cybertec]

the Pio PRO-FHD1 is already for sale, one vendor has them already, just google the modle number.