Panasonic Plasmas and Sony SXRD...A BIG SURPRISE!

[daltonlanny]

Hello I am new here, but I just wanted to share a big surprise:
Previously, I had extensively checked out all the big screens at CC and BB, including CRT, DLP rptv, plasmas, lcd direct-view and rptv, Sony SXRD RPTV's, and the JVC-D-ila rptvs.
The Panasonic plasmas were in the back of the stores far away from the Sony SXRD's and seemed to have a mediocre source going to them, never-the-less, they seemed to have a more impressive overall picture than any of the other plasmas or lcd displays. I guess you could say that I was BIAS towards the Sonys.
At that time I thought the Sony SXRD had the best overall picture to me hands down of any of the displays...but they were using the Sony demonstration loop that looks really impressive, and not a regular source like all the others seemed to be using.
Well, I was checking out all the big screens at Sears and my impressions have changed!
Well, they actually had the Sony KDS-R50XBR1 SXRD rptv and the Panasonic TH-50PX50U plasma side by side, using Discovery HD Theater as a source on both tvs!
I also tried a couple of dvd's, The Fifth Element and Terminator 2.
My conclusion:
They were EXTREMELY close in overall picture quality!
On some scences the SXRD was SLIGHTLY better, and on some scences the palsma was actually slightly better!
The black levels were essentially equal to my eyes, the colors were similar, and sometimes better on the plasma, sometimes the images were even slightly sharper on the plasma, but really it was a toss-up.
The only advantages that I saw on the SXRD, and this varied greatly from source to source, was the Sony was sometimes a little brighter than the Panasonic and maybe alittle more 3-dimensional?
The obvious advantages of the plasma were no SSE and a wider viewing angle.
So I can see the new Panasonic TH-50PX60U's may even give the Sonys an even bigger run for the money with the 10,000:1 contrast ratio and bigger color pallette!
When the 1080p plasmas arrive the SXRD's better really look out!
My big screen options are now WIDE OPEN.

[westa6969]

It's kind of convenient you compared the 50SXRD and a bias when in fact 1080i(p)strengths will be seen on larger panels and once you move to a 60" SXRD your in a new ball game that 10" makes a big difference and the price doubles for the Panny 65" plasma to make them more equal. RPTV strengths remain with larger panel sizes are about half the price of their FP Cousins. The impact of a 60" SXRD or the coming soon 70" with true 1080P is where they can compete with the Plasma and do it for a lot less money.

I owned the 50PX500U and the 60SXRD and the 60" did blow away the Plasma with HD movies - that 10" makes a big difference in HT immersion. The 50" plasma is not really very large for a HT HD experience but simply has been made affordable to the masses now and the 60+" plasma sets command alot more but that may change in the next year or two unless your used to watching a 27" CRT previously - 50" with HD is not HT size big. Just offering that a 60SXRD has a significant difference when compared to a 50" plasma at least in real life testing in my home of both. Most SXRD buyers do in fact buy the 60" version because they are going for HT Immersion and my 60" I got for less the the 50" Panny and they were both on sale. Perhaps I would choose a 65" Panny if they were equal in price with a new 70" but that's simply not going to happen as they are going for $9K and up.

Not trashing the plasma but I owned both and the larger SXRD with HD is in fact hands down better than a 50" Plasma IMO. That HD DVR Feed by Sony in the store demonstrates the potential of the panel in your home who cares how they feed the rest of the TV's - especially once they are true 1080P - that Feed demo's the Blu-ray capability and all 1080P (i) signals which blows away everything in the store as you and others have mentioned that have observed it as it will do the same in your home.:)

[Virtual McNut]

[QUOTE=westa6969]It's kind of convenient you compared the 50SXRD and a bias when in fact 1080i(p)strengths will be seen on larger panels and once you move to a 60" SXRD your in a new ball game that 10" makes a big difference and the price doubles for the Panny 65" plasma to make them more equal. RPTV strengths remain with larger panel sizes are about half the price of their FP Cousins. The impact of a 60" SXRD or the coming soon 70" with true 1080P is where they can compete with the Plasma and do it for a lot less money.

I owned the 50PX500U and the 60SXRD and the 60" did blow away the Plasma with HD movies - that 10" makes a big difference in HT immersion. The 50" plasma is not really very large for a HT HD experience but simply has been made affordable to the masses now and the 60+" plasma sets command alot more but that may change in the next year or two unless your used to watching a 27" CRT previously - 50" with HD is not HT size big. Just offering that a 60SXRD has a significant difference when compared to a 50" plasma at least in real life testing in my home of both. Most SXRD buyers do in fact buy the 60" version because they are going for HT Immersion and my 60" I got for less the the 50" Panny and they were both on sale. Perhaps I would choose a 65" Panny if they were equal in price with a new 70" but that's simply not going to happen as they are going for $9K and up.

Not trashing the plasma but I owned both and the larger SXRD with HD is in fact hands down better than a 50" Plasma IMO. That HD DVR Feed by Sony in the store demonstrates the potential of the panel in your home who cares how they feed the rest of the TV's - especially once they are true 1080P - that Feed demo's the Blu-ray capability and all 1080P (i) signals which blows away everything in the store as you and others have mentioned that have observed it as it will do the same in your home.:)[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your very timely Post. I've been looking at the 50PX500U and the 60SXRD. It sounds as though the 60" is the better of the two for the Home Theatre (HT) experience due to it's extra 10". However, I'm curious, all other things being equal, is the picture quality similar between the plasma 50" and the rear projection 60"?

Since many channels are still SD, is the 60" even watchable in SD? or does one simply resign ones self to using the 60" to view DVD's and HD broadcasts?

I would appreaciate your opinions as you have owned both.

Thank you.

[Ethek]

[QUOTE=Virtual McNut]Thank you for your very timely Post. I've been looking at the 50PX500U and the 60SXRD. It sounds as though the 60" is the better of the two for the Home Theatre (HT) experience due to it's extra 10". However, I'm curious, all other things being equal, is the picture quality similar between the plasma 50" and the rear projection 60"?

Since many channels are still SD, is the 60" even watchable in SD? or does one simply resign ones self to using the 60" to view DVD's and HD broadcasts?

I would appreaciate your opinions as you have owned both.

Thank you.[/QUOTE]

A very astute question. I'd be interested in any responses on this also.

[cherrypik]

[QUOTE=daltonlanny]Hello I am new here, but I just wanted to share a big surprise:
Previously, I had extensively checked out all the big screens at CC and BB, including CRT, DLP rptv, plasmas, lcd direct-view and rptv, Sony SXRD RPTV's, and the JVC-D-ila rptvs.
The Panasonic plasmas were in the back of the stores far away from the Sony SXRD's and seemed to have a mediocre source going to them, never-the-less, they seemed to have a more impressive overall picture than any of the other plasmas or lcd displays. I guess you could say that I was BIAS towards the Sonys.
At that time I thought the Sony SXRD had the best overall picture to me hands down of any of the displays...but they were using the Sony demonstration loop that looks really impressive, and not a regular source like all the others seemed to be using.
Well, I was checking out all the big screens at Sears and my impressions have changed!
Well, they actually had the Sony KDS-R50XBR1 SXRD rptv and the Panasonic TH-50PX50U plasma side by side, using Discovery HD Theater as a source on both tvs!
I also tried a couple of dvd's, The Fifth Element and Terminator 2.
My conclusion:
They were EXTREMELY close in overall picture quality!
On some scences the SXRD was SLIGHTLY better, and on some scences the palsma was actually slightly better!
The black levels were essentially equal to my eyes, the colors were similar, and sometimes better on the plasma, sometimes the images were even slightly sharper on the plasma, but really it was a toss-up.
The only advantages that I saw on the SXRD, and this varied greatly from source to source, was the Sony was sometimes a little brighter than the Panasonic and maybe alittle more 3-dimensional?
The obvious advantages of the plasma were no SSE and a wider viewing angle.
So I can see the new Panasonic TH-50PX60U's may even give the Sonys an even bigger run for the money with the 10,000:1 contrast ratio and bigger color pallette!
When the 1080p plasmas arrive the SXRD's better really look out!
My big screen options are now WIDE OPEN.[/QUOTE]

I am actually deciding between the Sony 50 SXRD and the Panny 50THPX60U. I was leaning toward the Sony but after reading about the green blob issue I might shy away from it because I just do not want to deal with that if I'm going to drop 3500+ on a set.

[tdavis21484]

The bottom line is that the source is extremely important to the overall PQ of a set. The HD DVR that runs the Sony Demo loop has an uncompressed transfer, and is in pristine quality. It is simply not a real-world example of what the SXRD would look like in the real world. Not bashing the SXRD, but just pointing out one reason it looked so much better.

[Ein]

[QUOTE=cherrypik]I am actually deciding between the Sony 50 SXRD and the Panny 50THPX60U. I was leaning toward the Sony but after reading about the green blob issue I might shy away from it because I just do not want to deal with that if I'm going to drop 3500+ on a set.[/QUOTE]

You'll also have to deal with periodic light bulb changes too. :)

[billybob_jcv]

Yeah, Sony really did that demo loop right - it looks fantastic. I was recently in a store that had the Sony demo box fed into a splitter that was feeding both the 60" SXRD and an HP DLP. They both looked better than any other RP in the store - and to me the SXRD looked much sharper than the HP. I think that Sony demo helped that HP tremendously.

[westa6969]

[QUOTE=tdavis21484]The bottom line is that the source is extremely important to the overall PQ of a set. The HD DVR that runs the Sony Demo loop has an uncompressed transfer, and is in pristine quality. It is simply not a real-world example of what the SXRD would look like in the real world. Not bashing the SXRD, but just pointing out one reason it looked so much better.[/QUOTE]

You simply do not get it. It is in fact Real World Demo with quality 1080i feed and I can attest to it as an owner and a shopper viewing the demo and it demo's the potential with Blu-Ray and growth of future 1080P also. Real World is being an owner and observing a replication of like event in one's home and I did and if you asked owners of the SXRD that lack the Green Blob issue they will attest to it. My real world test involved more than the Sony HD DVR it involved the exact identical HD source with Cable Fed Movies and the SXRD in Real World blew away a 50" Panasonic Plasma PX500 - NO COMPARISON!

Real World doesn't get any more real than being an owner of both technologies. My 45" Sharp is the best all around TV I've owned but it cannot make up for the loss of 15" in HT size and the level of details/blacks of the SXRD in HD - I cannot afford to test the 65" Sharp to compare as it runs $16K and I could buy four SXRD's for the price - while I make a good living I cannot finance my TV like my car and until Sharp gets in the Real World of pricing we're apples to oranges there.

That Store Loop is presenting the full potential of the panel and all other manufacturers are welcome to meet the challenge and do likewise. My test was in my home as well as in the store and on both occasions the SXRD won hands down - if your viewing the identical content and it is illiciting involuntary WoW's as you view and others in the room are having the same experience throughout the experience and the a week later you view the same feed on one of the best plasma and it provides NONE it's pretty obvious who won and that my friend is REAL WORLD!

If you doubt then go pay the price to perform the test yourself as I did if you don't believe the testimonial but mine is based upon controlled source and replication and others attest likewise to the experience. As great as SXRD is it needs tweaking in SD refinement IMO - it's not perfect but when an HD movie is wowing you with details as it did it stays with you and then when viewing anything less it is very obvious in the Real World of HT ownership. :)

[jkv4]

[QUOTE=westa6969]It's kind of convenient you compared the 50SXRD and a bias when in fact 1080i(p)strengths will be seen on larger panels and once you move to a 60" SXRD your in a new ball game that 10" makes a big difference and the price doubles for the Panny 65" plasma to make them more equal. RPTV strengths remain with larger panel sizes are about half the price of their FP Cousins. The impact of a 60" SXRD or the coming soon 70" with true 1080P is where they can compete with the Plasma and do it for a lot less money.

I owned the 50PX500U and the 60SXRD and the 60" did blow away the Plasma with HD movies - that 10" makes a big difference in HT immersion. The 50" plasma is not really very large for a HT HD experience but simply has been made affordable to the masses now and the 60+" plasma sets command alot more but that may change in the next year or two unless your used to watching a 27" CRT previously - 50" with HD is not HT size big. Just offering that a 60SXRD has a significant difference when compared to a 50" plasma at least in real life testing in my home of both. Most SXRD buyers do in fact buy the 60" version because they are going for HT Immersion and my 60" I got for less the the 50" Panny and they were both on sale. Perhaps I would choose a 65" Panny if they were equal in price with a new 70" but that's simply not going to happen as they are going for $9K and up.

Not trashing the plasma but I owned both and the larger SXRD with HD is in fact hands down better than a 50" Plasma IMO. That HD DVR Feed by Sony in the store demonstrates the potential of the panel in your home who cares how they feed the rest of the TV's - especially once they are true 1080P - that Feed demo's the Blu-ray capability and all 1080P (i) signals which blows away everything in the store as you and others have mentioned that have observed it as it will do the same in your home.:)[/QUOTE]

If you would feed the Panasonic Plasma the same loop from the sony DVR feed I am willing to bet you will also see a significant difference if picture quality for the better.

[westa6969]

Mitsubishi has been running custom HD feeds at BB for years via exclusive contract and their's cannot come close to the SXRD - so right there you have a competitor that pays extra for HD Feed and Mits cannot come close to the SXRD in any store I've seen them.

I was an owner of both and I regret the Plasma had NO IMPACT - NO WOW FACTOR which is one of several reasons I sold it - it made a fine mirror in a sunny room! :D

My point is not to bash plasma at all - I'm reporting the event comparatively not trashing plasma or brand and in fact I would very much like to see the new 65" 1080P by Panasonic to see if it's size difference with 1080P can match or overtake the SXRD in WoW Factor in the sweet spot with HD Source Feeds. We'll find out in a few months. :)

[lipcrkr]

[QUOTE=Virtual McNut]Thank you for your very timely Post. I've been looking at the 50PX500U and the 60SXRD. It sounds as though the 60" is the better of the two for the Home Theatre (HT) experience due to it's extra 10". However, I'm curious, all other things being equal, is the picture quality similar between the plasma 50" and the rear projection 60"?

Since many channels are still SD, is the 60" even watchable in SD? or does one simply resign ones self to using the 60" to view DVD's and HD broadcasts?

I would appreaciate your opinions as you have owned both.

Thank you.[/QUOTE]

When watching a HD feed i give the edge to the SXRD due to the higher pixel count, however, the new Panny plasma, when watching DVD's and SD content, blows the SXRD to smithereens.

[westa6969]

[QUOTE=lipcrkr]When watching a HD feed i give the edge to the SXRD due to the higher pixel count, however, the new Panny plasma, when watching DVD's and SD content, blows the SXRD to smithereens.[/QUOTE]
Will it do so with Blu-Ray or HD DVD? I don't think so, one buys this set for HD not 480P DVD's. The new Panny is not 1080P so how does it match your proposition and there's none for public viewing so your going to say a 50" 60 series can blow an SXRD or a Q006 to smithereens? 50" versus 60/70" with 2 million pixels. The Panny wasn't a piece of cake with SD either, lets be honest - My Sharp does SD better than both did. If someone's to damn cheap to get HD Channel lineup or HD DVD players coming out why even bother? Of course this thread is in the FP forum so we know what the general responses will be - place the same post in the RPTV and the slant reverses. I own three FP TV's but the SXRD potential and size for the price is a value as an equivalent Plasma/LCD runs 2-4 times the price and 50" simply cannot and did not have the impact the 60" SXRD had and the new version is not all that different and the 65" will cost more than double the SXRD. :)

[lipcrkr]

[QUOTE=westa6969]You simply do not get it. It is in fact Real World Demo with quality 1080i feed and I can attest to it as an owner and a shopper viewing the demo and it demo's the potential with Blu-Ray and growth of future 1080P also. Real World is being an owner and observing a replication of like event in one's home and I did and if you asked owners of the SXRD that lack the Green Blob issue they will attest to it. My real world test involved more than the Sony HD DVR it involved the exact identical HD source with Cable Fed Movies and the SXRD in Real World blew away a 50" Panasonic Plasma PX500 - NO COMPARISON!

Real World doesn't get any more real than being an owner of both technologies. My 45" Sharp is the best all around TV I've owned but it cannot make up for the loss of 15" in HT size and the level of details/blacks of the SXRD in HD - I cannot afford to test the 65" Sharp to compare as it runs $16K and I could buy four SXRD's for the price - while I make a good living I cannot finance my TV like my car and until Sharp gets in the Real World of pricing we're apples to oranges there.

That Store Loop is presenting the full potential of the panel and all other manufacturers are welcome to meet the challenge and do likewise. My test was in my home as well as in the store and on both occasions the SXRD won hands down - if your viewing the identical content and it is illiciting involuntary WoW's as you view and others in the room are having the same experience throughout the experience and the a week later you view the same feed on one of the best plasma and it provides NONE it's pretty obvious who won and that my friend is REAL WORLD!

If you doubt then go pay the price to perform the test yourself as I did if you don't believe the testimonial but mine is based upon controlled source and replication and others attest likewise to the experience. As great as SXRD is it needs tweaking in SD refinement IMO - it's not perfect but when an HD movie is wowing you with details as it did it stays with you and then when viewing anything less it is very obvious in the Real World of HT ownership. :)[/QUOTE]

Westa, i made a post a few weeks ago about the Sony HD DVD Hawaii loop and how incredible the PQ was however, i've seen the Samsung demo on a 1080p Sammy pedestal and was also blown away. The demos do wonderous things because it's pure, no garbage, just clean images. The SXRD leaves a lot to be desired on 480 and SD sources because Sony softens the picture so much it makes some DVD's and SD content grainy. I've seen digital SD sources on the new Panny 60u plasma and it's so much better. I think people need to realize that a lot of their viewing will still include lower rez sources. I always recommend potential buyers having the salespeople tune the TV to SD channels and if they refuse then tell them you'll take your business somewhere else.

[liy]

[QUOTE=westa6969... I own three FP TV's but the SXRD potential and size for the price is a value as an equivalent Plasma/LCD runs 2-4 times the price and 50" simply cannot and did not have the impact the 60" SXRD had and the new version is not all that different and the 65" will cost more than double the SXRD. :)[/QUOTE]

Wait, let me get this right. You're saying that a bigger screen is better than a smaller screen? Not really an insight Westie.

LIY :rolleyes:

[Jim Hef]

[QUOTE=lipcrkr]...I always recommend potential buyers having the salespeople tune the TV to SD channels and if they refuse then tell them you'll take your business somewhere else.[/QUOTE]
I suggest people do the same, however, you're not going to have this done at BestBuy or Circuit City. You need to go to a smaller audio/video house such as Tweeter, and they'll accommodate your wish there. Yes, most content is SD or 480 DVD, but your watching habits will change with a high def display...you'll either watch less, watch more high def stuff like the bug and snake channel, or just sit and bitch at the poor quality of the feed of that game. DVDs still look better no matter what high def display you have, and the future IS HD DVD/BluRay so the more pixels, the better off you are. Head out to see a 65" Sharp somewhere, and you'll see more of what the future is all about!

[plazman]

[QUOTE=daltonlanny]Hello I am new here, but I just wanted to share a big surprise:
Previously, I had extensively checked out all the big screens at CC and BB, including CRT, DLP rptv, plasmas, lcd direct-view and rptv, Sony SXRD RPTV's, and the JVC-D-ila rptvs.
The Panasonic plasmas were in the back of the stores far away from the Sony SXRD's and seemed to have a mediocre source going to them, never-the-less, they seemed to have a more impressive overall picture than any of the other plasmas or lcd displays. I guess you could say that I was BIAS towards the Sonys.
At that time I thought the Sony SXRD had the best overall picture to me hands down of any of the displays...but they were using the Sony demonstration loop that looks really impressive, and not a regular source like all the others seemed to be using.
Well, I was checking out all the big screens at Sears and my impressions have changed!
Well, they actually had the Sony KDS-R50XBR1 SXRD rptv and the Panasonic TH-50PX50U plasma side by side, using Discovery HD Theater as a source on both tvs!
I also tried a couple of dvd's, The Fifth Element and Terminator 2.
My conclusion:
They were EXTREMELY close in overall picture quality!
On some scences the SXRD was SLIGHTLY better, and on some scences the palsma was actually slightly better!
The black levels were essentially equal to my eyes, the colors were similar, and sometimes better on the plasma, sometimes the images were even slightly sharper on the plasma, but really it was a toss-up.
The only advantages that I saw on the SXRD, and this varied greatly from source to source, was the Sony was sometimes a little brighter than the Panasonic and maybe alittle more 3-dimensional?
The obvious advantages of the plasma were no SSE and a wider viewing angle.
So I can see the new Panasonic TH-50PX60U's may even give the Sonys an even bigger run for the money with the 10,000:1 contrast ratio and bigger color pallette!
When the 1080p plasmas arrive the SXRD's better really look out!
My big screen options are now WIDE OPEN.[/QUOTE]
-------------------------------------------

I have pointed this out numerous times on this forum. I m not sure if this is intentional or not, but BB in particular feed poorer quality feeds to their Panny Plasmas, while ensure the best feeds for the Pio and other sets. I have seen this repeatedly in the DC area across all BB. Whenever, I have seen a Panny next to another set it has always seemed to have the most realistic picture.

My impressions are also that the Sony SXRD sets probably have the closest viewing distance, which may indicate the sharpest resolution for HD viewing. However, a 65 Panny is probably the most impressive if money is not a concern.

At the 50 inch range, my picks are the Panny commercial series 8UK and the NEC XR5, each with its own strenghts and both in my opinion much better than a Pio Elite for the price. Basically, the Elite is similar to the NEC XR5 for around 30-40% higher price, but you do get the tuner, speakers and seperate media receiver (which I don't like) - not better PQ.

[haveoneolboy]

I still don't get the SXRD talk. I looked at them several times at CC and was not overly impressed. I don't get the 3D feel that i do with a plasma screen. I know the front glass is probably the reason, you can't beat it for picture depth.

[plazman]

[QUOTE=Ethek]A very astute question. I'd be interested in any responses on this also.[/QUOTE]
-----------------

For DVD and Digital SD the current generation Panny plasmas will blow an SXRD to smithereen (borrowing the term since this is the most appropriate). The deeper blacks of the Panny as well as superior grey scale even when compared to other plasmas make the Panny the best screen for DVD/Digital SD today.

If screen size is what you are after, check out the 65 inch Pannys, they will totally blow you away ( I have only indirectly seen them via Bang and Olufsen that rebadges the Panny while adding 100% to the price) !!!!!!!!!!!

I have both a Panny and NEC. The NEC IMHO is the best for HD content. For HD DVD/BluRay I would seriously consider upgrading my current 50 XR5 with an NEC 61 (with 1080p support when available). The HD PQ for both 720p and 1080i is peerless (IMHO) - why? greatest number of colors and very bright screen truly creates a 'looking through a window effect'. Think Pio Elite/5060 with more colors!

[ClarkeBar]

[QUOTE=haveoneolboy]I still don't get the SXRD talk. I looked at them several times at CC and was not overly impressed. I don't get the 3D feel that i do with a plasma screen. I know the front glass is probably the reason, you can't beat it for picture depth.[/QUOTE]

Same here. I have never been impressed with any SXRD I've seen. Rear projections in general (except some DLPs) have a grainy, screen painted look to them IMO which detracts from any 3-D effect. I have no idea what people are looking at when they compare SXRD and Plasma side-by-side and find them equivalent. Plasma and Direct-view CRT offer the most dimensional images I've ever seen. Oh well, to each his own.

[Glenee]

I own both the 60sxrd and the 37px60U and also a KDLV32XBR1 am still deciding which does what better. The panny is still in break in period and has not been adjusted to match the other two for comparision. All are wonderful sets and any one would enjoy any of them.
Glenee

[cherrypik]

[QUOTE=plazman]-------------------------------------------

At the 50 inch range, my picks are the Panny commercial series 8UK and the NEC XR5, each with its own strenghts and both in my opinion much better than a Pio Elite for the price. Basically, the Elite is similar to the NEC XR5 for around 30-40% higher price, but you do get the tuner, speakers and seperate media receiver (which I don't like) - not better PQ.[/QUOTE]

So you would take the Panny 8uk over the Panasonic TH-50PX60U?

[dark1x]

...I always recommend potential buyers having the salespeople tune the TV to SD channels and if they refuse then tell them you'll take your business somewhere else.
Or go all out and do what I did; haul your own equipment to the store and go to town. I actualy did just that at multiple retailers and, in general, they were super helpful and allowed me to do as I pleased.

I tested every commercial Plasma available at these retailers along with several other LCD, RP LCD, and DLP sets. As a gamer, I brought along a machine for HD resolutions (XBOX360) and SD (PS2). They both handle DVDs as well, for testing more realistic images that aren't HD.

The amount of things you'll discover from doing such a thing is pretty incredible. The first conclusion I came to is that LCDs and DLPs are terrible gaming displays. Absolutely hated the way they handled games (especially SD content). Plasma was the only choice and amongst them, certain models were just too flawed (Hitachi and Samsung spring to mind).

I was suprised to see that, in most cases, the sales clerks were actually interested in watching what we were doing and would often gather around to check it out.

[JWhip]

There goes Westa again bashing plasmas in general and Panasonics in general. I too have seen the SXRD's in store and that same demo loop, both the 50 and 60" babies. I for one have not been impressed at all. It is a good picture but I have seen better, especially from plasmas. I have two plasmas, both Panasonics, a 42PWD4UY and a 50PHD7UY. When fed a great 1080i source, such as the Beauty of Japan D-Theater tape, the PQ on the 50" Panasonic is breathtaking, far surpassing anything I have seen in a showroom. If you do not get the wow factor watching that tape on a great plasma, you are either blind or totally baised. I have a neighbor who just bought the 50" SXRD. He now wishes he had the 50" Panny. If you want the 60" screen size and can live with the SSE, get the SXRD. I can't get past the SSE BTW, it just ruins the picture for me. When I want to get a larger set, I will get the 1080p Panasonic 65PHD9UK or whatever it will be called and it will be nowhere near $9k and will be close enough to the price of the SXRD 60" that it will be a no brainer. Plasmas are not for everyone and every application. I have a contolled lighting enviorment so glare is not an issue. If you have a room with bright sunlight, plasmas may not be for you. Judge by your own eyesight. Try to watch each set with the same content, HD, SD, DVD, etc. Do not be swayed by the fact that some stores use better source material to steer you to one product or line and away from another. See the same sets in as many different stores as you can, in bright light and darkened rooms and make your decisions. I find plasmas to be the best PQ. Let your eyes be your quide.

[Elemental1]

Yeah, I don't get the praise for the SXRD's either. Oh, nice units despite the form factor but I look at the Pan plasmas and I wonder what the heck these pro SXRD guys are so thrilled about. :confused:

[plazman]

[QUOTE=cherrypik]So you would take the Panny 8uk over the Panasonic TH-50PX60U?[/QUOTE]
------------

Strictly on my experience and needs - yes!

I have not seen a fully calibrated PX60U though. On paper it sounds formidable :)

[plazman]

[QUOTE=Elemental1]Yeah, I don't get the praise for the SXRD's either. Oh, nice units despite the form factor but I look at the Pan plasmas and I wonder what the heck these pro SXRD guys are so thrilled about. :confused:[/QUOTE]
-------------

Just remember stores don't need to work hard trying to sell the current Panny plasma, so any sale of a non-panny HDTV set is an extra unit sold...

I have grilled several sales folks at Tweeter and BB and none, quote 'none' have ever been able to justify why they felt that the Pioneers were on a league by themselves and that the Panny was best value for money - unfortunately they don't carry NEC, but I would have defended the NEC too :)

BTW: Not sure how cheap Fujitsu commercial plasmas are, but Dulles airport in DC has hundreds of them all over. They only thing they play is the baggage screening loop - what a waste!

[R Harkness]

[QUOTE=JWhip]There goes Westa again bashing plasmas in general and Panasonics in general. I too have seen the SXRD's in store and that same demo loop, both the 50 and 60" babies. I for one have not been impressed at all. It is a good picture but I have seen better, especially from plasmas. .[/QUOTE]

I know what you mean :)

I've been a fan of the SXRDs to some extent. I really can see some things in their image that surpass most other displays. But the whole "gestalt" of the picture just doesn't grab me. The silk screen effect is an absolute killer for me, as I notice it all the time on the SXRD and it flattens the image (to my eyes).

As I continue to encounter the SXRD playing the 1080i sony demo loops I'm actually getting somewhat less impressed. They are still fantastic, but...well...even yesterday I was watching the demo loop on the SXRD and I just wasn't getting that "this is real" vibe. Some shots really stand out very well, but a lot, especially landscapes, have this "painted on" look to the screen. I walked over to the standard demo loops being played on the Panasonic/Pioneer/Hitachi plasmas and the difference in realism just grabbed me. The fly-overs of historical monuments were so solid, clear and "there" it felt like looking right out the helicopter window. Compared to the SXRD and it's silk screen/painterly look, viewing the plasmas (in a somewhat darkened room) was like wiping a window clean of some fine gauze.

As much as I respect the SXRD, and I do mightily (and I can understand why some prefer the image to plasma), I'm much more excited about 1080p
plasma. Actually, I'm more excited about some current 720p plasmas!

[mark_1080p]

[QUOTE=ClarkeBar]Rear projections in general (except some DLPs) have a grainy, screen painted look to them IMO which detracts from any 3-D effect.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=R Harkness]The silk screen effect is an absolute killer for me, as I notice it all the time on the SXRD and it flattens the image (to my eyes).[/QUOTE]

SXRD is the best I have seen in projection, but until SSE is reduced, if it is possible, rear projection is dead for me. My eyes demand perfect geometry, perfect convergence, only a real macropanel can do it at this point.

Just when I start to enjoy the SXRD picture, along comes a scene with a bright background with movement in the foreground or panning. My eyes begin to focus (automatically) on the silk screen "gauze" and the whole experience is lost.

Doesn't everyone see this ?

[R Harkness]

[QUOTE=mark_1080p]

Doesn't everyone see this ?[/QUOTE]

It seems a lot of people do see the SSE once they understand what they are looking at. However, some are concsious of it infrequently, so it's not a big deal. Others, like me (and apparently you) see it a lot on the display.

Many people only notice it on images that are large fields of, say, white or one color - like snow shots or shots of the sky. But I can see it overlaying almost every shot. Wherever the screen is moderately bright, even high-lights and people's faces, I see that granular over-lay on the image.

Those times when I am not noticing the SSE, I find the SXRD can put out some stunning images - super detailed, and super-smooth, with lots of color detail and excellent black levels/contrast (although I understand the ANSI contrast isn't something to brag about on the SXRDs, mostly due to it's using a dynamic iris).

But these are the kinds of things that make relying on other people, professional reviewers included, tough to do. I've seen several reviewers proclaim the SXRD the best image out there at it's size, and even recomending it over plasma. But personal
taste and our individual sensitivities always come into the equation. Someone who would recomend I buy an SXRD over a great plasma is clearly doing so from their own criteria - they aren't bothered as much by the things that bother me about the RPTVs, and visa versa for them and plasma, no doubt.

[cherrypik]

Help me out here guys. I just checked out the Sony SXRD vs a 50 inch Panny Plasma 500u. To me it looked like the Sony picture was as rich in colors as the Panny and more crisp and clean. The were using Comcast with a 1080I feed. I'm on the fence on these set. Everywhere I go someone tells me different. I go to Tweeter and they try and sell me on the Sony. I go to ABT and they try and sell me on the Panny. I will watch a lot of sporting events and digit TV compared to DVD. Please let me know your opinions or recommendations...

[JWhip]

cherrypik, let your eyes be the judge. What do you like best? Try to see both in a darkened room. What looks to you to be more bright and more sharp in the glow of a showroom just may prove to be the opposite in your home where you can control sunlight or at night.

[R Harkness]

cherrypik,

Honestly, you should try and do the best comparisons you can and use your own eyes (along with getting info in places like these, as to the pluses/minuses or problems that might be associated with any display you are interested in).

Quite a few people like SXRDs better than plasmas, so don't think "plasma has to be better" or anything. SXRDs can look awesome.

Which SXRD are you comparing to the Panny plasma? The 50" or 60" SXRD? The 60" SXRD's step up in size could be highly desireable - biggger images are often more involving (as long as they are of excellent qualitly, like the SXRD).

Think about what type of space you have, and what type of lighting you have in your room, and how you like to watch TV. One issue that some have with plasmas is the reflectivity of the glass which, if you are in a really bright room, or a room filled with different light sources, can be noticeable when viewing. Some have issues with this; some don't. Quite a few of us prefer to watch movies in rooms that are not brightly lit (lowered the lights) so the whole glare thing isn't much of a problem.

The SXRD isn't free of reflections itself, but it does diffuse bright reflections, which you may find less bothersome.

Both would be awesome for Sporting events, particularly HD sporting events ofcourse. And in that case, bigger could be better.

As far as regular TV channels, both are pretty good from what I've seen, as long as you have realistic expectations as to what you are likely to see when you blow up poor old NTSC signals on those big displays. If that's a concern for you, it's certainly best to ask to see each of those displays playing regular SD channels.

Sorry I couldn't come down on either side, but this stuff is pretty relative.

[billybob_jcv]

[QUOTE=R Harkness]
Those times when I am not noticing the SSE, I find the SXRD can put out some stunning images - super detailed, and super-smooth, with lots of color detail and excellent black levels/contrast (although I understand the ANSI contrast isn't something to brag about on the SXRDs, mostly due to it's using a dynamic iris).
[/QUOTE]

This is exactly how I feel, and it is what keeps bringing me back to the plasmas. As much as I generally like the SXRD picture, the SSE of RP still bothers me.

[cherrypik]

[QUOTE=R Harkness]cherrypik,

Honestly, you should try and do the best comparisons you can and use your own eyes (along with getting info in places like these, as to the pluses/minuses or problems that might be associated with any display you are interested in).

Quite a few people like SXRDs better than plasmas, so don't think "plasma has to be better" or anything. SXRDs can look awesome.

Which SXRD are you comparing to the Panny plasma? The 50" or 60" SXRD? The 60" SXRD's step up in size could be highly desireable - biggger images are often more involving (as long as they are of excellent qualitly, like the SXRD).

Think about what type of space you have, and what type of lighting you have in your room, and how you like to watch TV. One issue that some have with plasmas is the reflectivity of the glass which, if you are in a really bright room, or a room filled with different light sources, can be noticeable when viewing. Some have issues with this; some don't. Quite a few of us prefer to watch movies in rooms that are not brightly lit (lowered the lights) so the whole glare thing isn't much of a problem.

The SXRD isn't free of reflections itself, but it does diffuse bright reflections, which you may find less bothersome.

Both would be awesome for Sporting events, particularly HD sporting events ofcourse. And in that case, bigger could be better.

As far as regular TV channels, both are pretty good from what I've seen, as long as you have realistic expectations as to what you are likely to see when you blow up poor old NTSC signals on those big displays. If that's a concern for you, it's certainly best to ask to see each of those displays playing regular SD channels.

Sorry I couldn't come down on either side, but this stuff is pretty relative.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for the advice guys. I am looking at the Sony 50 Inch not the 60. The Panny on display was a 50 inch 500u because they can not keep the 60u in house according to their salesman.

[Jim Hef]

Just one quick thing to consider is your furniture arrangement at home, and how the various seated people will view the screen. The SXRD definitely has a sweet spot as compared to the plasma panels. Measure out your room, with seated eyes as the dimension, and then head to the store with that info in hand. See which you like best, but do it from the seated position and that dimension away from the display.

[squiredogs]

I think that many people get that "looking through a window" feel with the plasmas because they ARE looking through a window (the reflective glass, that is.) An SXRD that had a thick glass screen would probably give a similar effect... but then there's the glare issue. Sometimes, I think I see SSE on FP LCD's - since that's impossible, it might just be the unfamiliarity of a matte screen. A non-glass screen is so different from what we've been used to with our CRT's for so long, it will probably take some adjustment.

I have a very bright room, so I recently put the Pio back into 3rd just to get somewhere near a decision. I'm still stewing, since all these TV are like apples-to-oranges-to-bannanas! It's quite discouraging, but I (hope) suppose one would get used to whatever they have. Maybe it's about price, size, or form factor. Who knows?

[lipcrkr]

[QUOTE=R Harkness]cherrypik,

Honestly, you should try and do the best comparisons you can and use your own eyes (along with getting info in places like these, as to the pluses/minuses or problems that might be associated with any display you are interested in).

Quite a few people like SXRDs better than plasmas, so don't think "plasma has to be better" or anything. SXRDs can look awesome.

Which SXRD are you comparing to the Panny plasma? The 50" or 60" SXRD? The 60" SXRD's step up in size could be highly desireable - biggger images are often more involving (as long as they are of excellent qualitly, like the SXRD).

Think about what type of space you have, and what type of lighting you have in your room, and how you like to watch TV. One issue that some have with plasmas is the reflectivity of the glass which, if you are in a really bright room, or a room filled with different light sources, can be noticeable when viewing. Some have issues with this; some don't. Quite a few of us prefer to watch movies in rooms that are not brightly lit (lowered the lights) so the whole glare thing isn't much of a problem.

The SXRD isn't free of reflections itself, but it does diffuse bright reflections, which you may find less bothersome.

Both would be awesome for Sporting events, particularly HD sporting events ofcourse. And in that case, bigger could be better.

As far as regular TV channels, both are pretty good from what I've seen, as long as you have realistic expectations as to what you are likely to see when you blow up poor old NTSC signals on those big displays. If that's a concern for you, it's certainly best to ask to see each of those displays playing regular SD channels.

Sorry I couldn't come down on either side, but this stuff is pretty relative.[/QUOTE]

Ron, as someone who considers the Panny plasma the best choice over most plasmas and all projection TV's does it make sense that i am still considering the new SXRD or new Sammy DLP (both 1080p"s) because i plan on using it as an HTPC? SSE doesn't bother me that much and i've never seen rainbows but as far as PQ the Panny plasma is best. But computer use and plasma still worries me. I wish more people would post who are using their plasmas as HTPC's. What's frustrating is i know the Panny plasma is best, but my plan is to center my home theater around the computer and i'm thinking a 1080p (that accepts 1080p sources) is best for my setup.

[R Harkness]

[QUOTE=squiredogs]I think that many people get that "looking through a window" feel with the plasmas because they ARE looking through a window (the reflective glass, that is.) [/QUOTE]

No, the "looking through a window" thing refers to how life-like and clear the image appears - "looking through a window" vs "watching a TV, or film print reflected off a movie screen" kind of thing.

I watch with the lights low, so there isn't any "window glass" discernable between me and the plasma image.


An SXRD that had a thick glass screen would probably give a similar effect...

It doesn't. The Sony Qualia 006 RPTV is a 70" SXRD display does in fact have a thick glass (actually, it's made of plastic) in front of the image. It still doesn't look the way plasma looks. And yes, the added glass in front of the 006 has led some to mention glare problems here and there.

[Yoda1]

[QUOTE=R Harkness]I know what you mean :)

I've been a fan of the SXRDs to some extent. I really can see some things in their image that surpass most other displays. But the whole "gestalt" of the picture just doesn't grab me. The silk screen effect is an absolute killer for me, as I notice it all the time on the SXRD and it flattens the image (to my eyes).

As I continue to encounter the SXRD playing the 1080i sony demo loops I'm actually getting somewhat less impressed. They are still fantastic, but...well...even yesterday I was watching the demo loop on the SXRD and I just wasn't getting that "this is real" vibe. Some shots really stand out very well, but a lot, especially landscapes, have this "painted on" look to the screen. I walked over to the standard demo loops being played on the Panasonic/Pioneer/Hitachi plasmas and the difference in realism just grabbed me. The fly-overs of historical monuments were so solid, clear and "there" it felt like looking right out the helicopter window. Compared to the SXRD and it's silk screen/painterly look, viewing the plasmas (in a somewhat darkened room) was like wiping a window clean of some fine gauze.

As much as I respect the SXRD, and I do mightily (and I can understand why some prefer the image to plasma), I'm much more excited about 1080p
plasma. Actually, I'm more excited about some current 720p plasmas![/QUOTE]


I agree with every single word. I just wish I didn't see yellow flashing rainbows on plasma. If I didn't, I'd SO own one. I love those damn Panny's. Alas, it looks like I'll have to enjoy my time with the XBR 960 and wait for SED to arrive.

[R Harkness]

I feel for you Yoda. It's just bizarre that I'm sooo sensitive to rainbows on DLP and SSE on SXRD, but can't see any rainbow flashes on the plasmas if I try.

[Auditor55]

[QUOTE=daltonlanny]Hello I am new here, but I just wanted to share a big surprise:
Previously, I had extensively checked out all the big screens at CC and BB, including CRT, DLP rptv, plasmas, lcd direct-view and rptv, Sony SXRD RPTV's, and the JVC-D-ila rptvs.
The Panasonic plasmas were in the back of the stores far away from the Sony SXRD's and seemed to have a mediocre source going to them, never-the-less, they seemed to have a more impressive overall picture than any of the other plasmas or lcd displays. I guess you could say that I was BIAS towards the Sonys.
At that time I thought the Sony SXRD had the best overall picture to me hands down of any of the displays...but they were using the Sony demonstration loop that looks really impressive, and not a regular source like all the others seemed to be using.
Well, I was checking out all the big screens at Sears and my impressions have changed!
Well, they actually had the Sony KDS-R50XBR1 SXRD rptv and the Panasonic TH-50PX50U plasma side by side, using Discovery HD Theater as a source on both tvs!
I also tried a couple of dvd's, The Fifth Element and Terminator 2.
My conclusion:
They were EXTREMELY close in overall picture quality!
On some scences the SXRD was SLIGHTLY better, and on some scences the palsma was actually slightly better!
The black levels were essentially equal to my eyes, the colors were similar, and sometimes better on the plasma, sometimes the images were even slightly sharper on the plasma, but really it was a toss-up.
The only advantages that I saw on the SXRD, and this varied greatly from source to source, was the Sony was sometimes a little brighter than the Panasonic and maybe alittle more 3-dimensional?
The obvious advantages of the plasma were no SSE and a wider viewing angle.
So I can see the new Panasonic TH-50PX60U's may even give the Sonys an even bigger run for the money with the 10,000:1 contrast ratio and bigger color pallette!
When the 1080p plasmas arrive the SXRD's better really look out!
My big screen options are now WIDE OPEN.[/QUOTE]

I can't speak for the Panny Plasma, but If I were you I would pass on this years SXRD's. Not because it doesn't have a good picture, but do to some QC issues. You are better served waiting for the 2006 models.

I don't know about the blacks on the Panny, but in my opinion, the SXRD is incapable of producing deep (inky) blacks. I don't know if a lamp based display will ever be capable of such.

[wd90125]

R Harkness-

Just wanted to praise you for your sound, honest and fair advice on this thread. You could have easily been biased based on your own equipment, like many others are in this forum.
You are a breath of fresh air!

[Virtual McNut]

Hmm, some good information is coming out of this thread.

I'm going to take my DVD player into Future Shop, Canadian Retailer who carry both the Panny 50PX50U and the Sony 60" SXRD, plug it in and compare first hand. (Note: unfortunately the new Panny 60U isn't out in Canada yet, and it doesn't look like the new Panny 58" will be out until later this year).

I'll let you know what I think.

[mark_1080p]

[QUOTE=R Harkness]Wherever the screen is moderately bright, even high-lights and people's faces, I see that granular over-lay on the image.[/QUOTE]That's pretty much my observation, some mild granulation like a washed out photosphere, and panning really brings it out in my experience.

[squiredogs]

[QUOTE=R Harkness]No, the "looking through a window" thing refers to how life-like and clear the image appears - "looking through a window" vs "watching a TV, or film print reflected off a movie screen" kind of thing.


It doesn't. The Sony Qualia 006 RPTV is a 70" SXRD display does in fact have a thick glass (actually, it's made of plastic) in front of the image. It still doesn't look the way plasma looks. And yes, the added glass in front of the 006 has led some to mention glare problems here and there.[/QUOTE]

OK, that makes sense. Maybe the FP LCD can achieve that "looking thru" then. I definitely get the "movie screen" thing from the RP's. Actually looks great on movies, but I don't think I'd like that for regular TV.

[R Harkness]

[QUOTE=squiredogs]OK, that makes sense. Maybe the FP LCD can achieve that "looking thru" then. I definitely get the "movie screen" thing from the RP's. Actually looks great on movies, but I don't think I'd like that for regular TV.[/QUOTE]

I do find that LCD flat panels can acheive that "looking through a window effect." It can be really startling at times. Although I can see a slight crystal-like granular overlay on
LCD flat panels (I can see it right now, typing on my LCD flat panel). But it doesn't seem as distracting as the SSE on the micro-RPTVs.

[egrady]

[QUOTE=Auditor55]I can't speak for the Panny Plasma, but If I were you I would pass on this years SXRD's. Not because it doesn't have a good picture, but do to some QC issues. You are better served waiting for the 2006 models.

I don't know about the blacks on the Panny, but in my opinion, the SXRD is incapable of producing deep (inky) blacks. I don't know if a lamp based display will ever be capable of such.[/QUOTE]


While Auditor55 has taken some heat in some of the other forums, unjustified in my opinion, I agree with him 100% here. New SXRD's will be available before the end the year and, I hope, they'll be worth waiting for. If one is happy with a 50" screen, and had to buy right now, I'd go plasma. On a 50" screen the difference between 720p and 1080p, at reasonable viewing distance, would be slight. In my case it's going to be the new 60 or 70" SXRD or the 1080p 65" Panasonic Plasma. Let the chips fall where they may.

Now if I could just figure out when Auditor55 is being straightforward, like he is here, and when he's toying with us!

[Elemental1]

[QUOTE=wd90125]R Harkness-

Just wanted to praise you for your sound, honest and fair advice on this thread. You could have easily been biased based on your own equipment, like many others are in this forum.
You are a breath of fresh air![/QUOTE]

Yeah, the majority of those guys with Panasonic plasmas don't know what they are seeing and saying :rolleyes:
It's not fair to call it the way you see it ;)

[dtrell]

i have ALWAYS noticed the SSE effect on projection TVs from their very beginning. Just because they are now HD, doesnt make that effect any less. that is why projection TVs of ANY kind are a non starter for me. I CANNOT get past the SSE.

[mbaxter]

I, too am surprised any HT enthusiast can enjoy any type of RPTV. Silk screen effect, or sparklies, or whatever you want to call it, ruins the image on all of these sets, including the SXRD's. The only RPTV's that don't have SSE are the CRT-based displays, but these have major screen glare and lack sharpness.

I'm amazed how someone could be all picky about colors and contrast yet somehow tolerate SSE.

[Auditor55]

[QUOTE=mbaxter]I, too am surprised any HT enthusiast can enjoy any type of RPTV. Silk screen effect, or sparklies, or whatever you want to call it, ruins the image on all of these sets, including the SXRD's. The only RPTV's that don't have SSE are the CRT-based displays, but these have major screen glare and lack sharpness.

I'm amazed how someone could be all picky about colors and contrast yet somehow tolerate SSE.[/QUOTE]

You sound like some that's never seen a quality RPTV. To me CRT RPTV's like the Mits Diamonds are wonderful for movies and HT. The screens are removable so that you eliminate glare, you can't remove the releflective screens from plasma sets. CRT's are still the most tweakable TV's, they produce great shadow detail in addition to inky blacks and that is what you need for home theater applications. Also, you can get RPTV's in larger sizes at more affordable prices than plasmas and LCD FP.

[mbaxter]

You're probably right about that, Auditor. I've seen a lot of RPTV in homes and stores and they were all blurry. The convergence routine never seems to do anything either. The best CRT RPTV I've seen was an expensive Mitsibishi owned by a friend, but it was still far less sharp even than my old Infocus X1 front projector. And yes I converged that Mits set also.

So I guess it's a subjective thing. Some people equate blurry with "film-like". I prefer a more crisp image. But even if a CRT RPTV could come close to the sharpness of a digital display or a CRT direct-view set, there'd still be two intolerable problems:
1) Screen glare (if I have to turn off the lights to watch, why not just go front projection?)
2) Size (they're HUUUUUGE and a major PITA to move)

[Virtual McNut]

I compared the Panny 50PX500U" and the SXRD 60" and must say I was amazed at what I found ... the SXRD handly blew the Panny away. I'm with Westa69 on this one. Until you see the two side by side you don't appreciate how much brighter, deeper and the better contrast difference. We compared using the new DVD "King Kong". I was really surprized at how much better the SXRD looked. I had my wife and and 16 year old son with me and both were stunned. I'm getting my house ready for the delivery of this bad boy, hopefully next weekend! Good hunting to everyone else.

[Trackman]

My Pioneer CRT-RPTV stays converged for long periods, has no SSE, and is sharp. Glare is an issue during the day, but I don't usually watch during the day, except football or golf.

I love the image of a good plasma but there is a glare issue there also.

The SXRD has too much SSE, though I find the D'ILA less bothersome in that regard. My next set will likely be plasma.

[egrady]

[QUOTE=Virtual McNut]I compared the Panny 50PX500U" and the SXRD 60" and must say I was amazed at what I found ... the SXRD handly blew the Panny away. I'm with Westa69 on this one. Until you see the two side by side you don't appreciate how much brighter, deeper and the better contrast difference. We compared using the new DVD "King Kong". I was really surprized at how much better the SXRD looked. I had my wife and and 16 year old son with me and both were stunned. I'm getting my house ready for the delivery of this bad boy, hopefully next weekend! Good hunting to everyone else.[/QUOTE]


This post is a great example of why showroom demos are nearly worthless. These sets, especially the Sony, have so many adjustments that you simply don't know if you're seeing what the set really can do. An ISF can make a huge difference, but not always. The same problem exists in high end audio. Until you can try the item out at home, you simply can't be sure. Sure, you can fool around with the settings. But you still don't know if say the color temp is so far off on one that it's got one hand tied behind it's back.

I'll bet you could do this comparison again in a different store, with different examples of the same sets, and come to a different conclusion. Be careful drawing final conclusions based soley on an in store comparison.

[redgtxdi]

Anybody wondering why most stores can't keep the Panny 60u's in stock???


Because they're ABSOLUTELY AWESOME at HD *and* SD PQ!!!! I went to a brand new CC yesterday because I knew they had a great display wall. The 42" and 50" Panny's in the 60u version just KILLED the competition. That included the Sharp 45", the HItachi's, EVERYTHING!!!!

In regards to the SXRD............Yup the 60" is beautiful. In fact....it even kills its own sibling the 50". Why?? PQ *and* HT effect. Why can't the 50 sibling look as good as the 60?? Maybe it's ONLY HT effect??? I looked 'em both over scrutinizing and the 60" killed. It's a beautiful set. BUT........I ain't buyin' a 60" set for that kinda' sick money for my 12 x 15 family room.....sorry!!

I kept goin' back to the Panny's. Had the CC guy put the whole wall on SD. Guess what??? Now the difference was even MORE PRONOUNCED!!!!

I dunno how, (after seeing all of them on a wall like that) anyone could buy anything other than a Panny 60u series. I have no bias to ANY tv, mfgr, style.....whatever. In fact, the only other TV I love like that is the Vizio 37" LCD. I assumed I just *had* to have LCD after seeing that thing. (Again, KILLED every other panel in Costco). But 37" is too small for my family room. If Vizio comes out with a 42 or 45" LCD, I'll be all over it.

I swore I was gonna hold off 'til 1080p and the Panny is so good I'm almost willing to ditch that idea just to have a TV that does SD & HD soo beautifully as the 60u series!!! (Unbeatable, imho!)

[plazman]

[QUOTE=egrady]This post is a great example of why showroom demos are nearly worthless. These sets, especially the Sony, have so many adjustments that you simply don't know if you're seeing what the set really can do. An ISF can make a huge difference, but not always. The same problem exists in high end audio. Until you can try the item out at home, you simply can't be sure. Sure, you can fool around with the settings. But you still don't know if say the color temp is so far off on one that it's got one hand tied behind it's back.

I'll bet you could do this comparison again in a different store, with different examples of the same sets, and come to a different conclusion. Be careful drawing final conclusions based soley on an in store comparison.[/QUOTE]
-------------

In a big bright store setting, a decent 60 inch will invariably beat the smaller set. I compared a 50' SXRD and the Panny 60U at a CC (Tyson's Corner). I would find it hard to believe that someone would prefer the PQ of the SXRD for any sort of viewing. Actually, I can think of one area the SXRD was better - no screen reflection. On the other hand, it was pretty bulky and those speakers on the side were truly hideous....well, each to this own.

Not bashing the Sony here, but if you have the room, a 60' SXRD will satisfy you more than the 50' Panny, but at 50 inches, I would take the Panny any day! and if I had to choose between a 61'inch NEC or 58 Panny - I'd take the Plasma over the comparably sized SXRD. But you'd be paying more....

[Elemental1]

These SRXD pushers aren't fooling anybody. I mean, come on now....do you see any shortage of SXRD's like we have with Plasma's? ;)

[plazman]

[QUOTE=Elemental1]These SRXD pushers aren't fooling anybody. I mean, come on now....do you see any shortage of SXRD's like we have with Plasma's? ;)[/QUOTE

Wide and me just came from the Sony Style store in Tyson's Corner. We looked at the SXRD very closely. We both noticed the cloth-like picture. This is nowhere close to the Panny 60U we saw at the CC. My wife has no bias to any vendor and I even told her I would show her a set better than the Panny and that the Sony was a 15K top end set! She looked at it and immediately said the image was 'cloth-like and not refined as the Plasma we saw' she was shocked that it would cost 15K and that the videophiles were crazy...I then corrected her and told her the real price and she said it looks like a 3 K set (at best)....

Just another point of comparison (non technical)....

[daryllafferty]

I've had a 60" SXRD in my house for 3 weeks now, and have already contacted the store about taking it back. I find the SSE just too distracting. I thought I'd get used to it, but I just seem to notice it more and more.

I have a friend in the Plasma retail business who can get me a TH-65PHD8UK for well under retail. Still a lot more than the SXRD (especially after the $500 restocking charge on the SXRD :( ), but I can't live with the SSE so it's gotta go.

My wife notices the SSE if I point it out, but otherwise it doesn't bother her. I guess either it does or it doesn't.

[reincarnate]

The oversaturated colors of the SXRD are a cheap shot from Sony to fool the inexperienced. If I want to watch cartoons, I'd wait for Saturday morning:)

[billybob_jcv]

As much as I would like to have a 60-70" display - I just can't get past the RP image - I guess I spent too many years staring at direct-view CRTs. The SXRD & Mitsubishi DLP have the best RP image I have seen - but in the end I still prefer the plasma image.

[Virtual McNut]

Wow, what a difference of opinions.

I must admit that up to approx 3 weeks ago I was 100% sold on the Panny plasma. From what I could see in the show room they have amazing PQ and the looking through a window effect. They definitely beat all the other DLP's and LCD's and other Plasmas that I saw in the show rooms. However, recently I saw this same plasma that I was drooling over, the 50PX500U (note: the 60U and 600U's aren't out in Canada yet), right beside the Sony 60" SXRD. Wow .... as I have expressed in my prior posts in this thread I was shocked.

Could it be that some idiot in the show room has totally messed with the settings on the plasma and has fine tuned the settings on the SXRD to perfection? hence I wasn't getting a true comparisson? All that I saw with my own two eyes was the SXRD looked much better when watching a DVD that was running on both. We switched to SD programming and the difference wasn't as far appart, however the SXRD had a slight edge.

I want to make the right decision here as I'm wanting to make my purchase in the next few weeks. If I follow this thread, it sounds to me that I cannot get an accurate comparision from the show room? If not in the show room, where the heck else do I go to get this comparision? I'm certainly not going to purchase both and compare at home. So I default to what Westa69 said. Westa actually did own both and had them both in his home. He felt that the SXRD was the better of the two. In particular in the HT setting which is one of my top critera. Although I must admit that I will also be view some regular SD programing.

Note to everyone: I did not notice the screen door effect (nor did my wife and son) that many of the plasma lovers tout about. Is this something that only some people see and others do not? Is this something that one cannot see in a brightly lit showroom? What user settings can I make to the plasma to try to get a good comparision in the show room?

Unless I'm given some plasma assistance, so far what I've seen with my own two eyes shows me the SXRD is the better of the two.

Thx everyone, I appreciate your continued feedback on this topic.

[Elemental1]

[QUOTE=Virtual McNut]
Unless I'm given some plasma assistance, so far what I've seen with my own two eyes shows me the SXRD is the better of the two.

Thx everyone, I appreciate your continued feedback on this topic.[/QUOTE]

Well, the HD display market says differently. The top plasmas are almost always sold out and hard to get. This is not a sign of an inferior product. :D

[mark_1080p]

Best RPTV I have ever seen = Pioneer Elite CRT (a black elephant).
Great pic for a projection TV - but the size .....

If you cannot see SSE on the oversaturated SeXRD, look for a bright scene where there is motion or panning. You will see either sparklies or a veil-like glistening - a blatant reminder that you are looking at a box - *poof*, there goes your viewing experience. Still, this is the best digital RPTV I have seen. The chroma and misconvergence is also an annoyance to me, I like the crystal clarity of the LCD in this regard - where it is unsurpassed.

Not my cup of tea, but Plasma is still the one to beat. Dazzling pics from the Panny, but definitely unappreciated in the bright showroom floor where they tend to reside.

[Auditor55]

The SXRD does have oversaturated colors and SSE no denying that, but it beats out all plasma when it comes to shadow detail and PQ artifacts. Plasma's are noisy. There is that every present grain in the picture.

[billybob_jcv]

And there you have it. The RP crowd calls plasmas "grainy" & "noisy", and the PDP crowd calls RPs "soft" & "SSE". I guess we need "One Ring to rule them all"... :p

[Auditor55]

[QUOTE=billybob_jcv]And there you have it. The RP crowd calls plasmas "grainy" & "noisy", and the PDP crowd calls RPs "soft" & "SSE". I guess we need "One Ring to rule them all"... :p[/QUOTE]

And the reason why, according to Dr. Raymond Soneria is that plasmas use spatial dithering.

Spatial Dithering

In some cases a display may not be able to generate all of the intensity levels that are required. This may be the case for only a portion of the gray-scale. To overcome this limitation the display electronics will automatically adjust the intensities of neighboring pixels so their combined intensities average out to the desired values. This procedure is called spatial dithering. The averaging process may involve only adjacent pixels or it can encompass larger groupings of nearby pixels. Image sharpness is reduced somewhat in return for a smoother gray-scale and reduced intensity contouring. The dithering process introduces a form of spatial noise into the image. The dithering algorithm may involve a fixed pixel pattern, which is often more noticeable because it tends to produce repeating patterns, or error diffusion, which generates a seemingly random pattern and a finer intensity scale, but also introduces more random noise intro the image. In some cases displays will provide a menu option to choose among several dithering algorithms.

[Auditor55]

See the display technology comparison chart and how plasma ranks with other displays.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1930287,00.asp

[conan48]

People should really reconsider LCD's. I have generally hated LCD's because of their problems (motion blur, weak blacks, etc)

However, I have seen the new 65" Sharp 9U LCD and WOW!. This thing beat all the plasma's in terms of black level. It also beat them in shadow detail. Black crush was mininal, and white crush was easily fixed by lowering contrast. I did spend a good 30 minutes calibrating the Sharp and Pio. I saw it righ beside a Pio, phillips, and daytek Plasmas. The new sharps are making their way into stores and I think people should check them out.

[Virtual McNut]

[QUOTE=Elemental1]Well, the HD display market says differently. The top plasmas are almost always sold out and hard to get. This is not a sign of an inferior product. :D[/QUOTE]
Elemental, I definitely wasn't saying that the plasmas are "an inferior product." I honestly do not believe that for one minute. In fact that is why I'm asking these questions. I'm really concerned that I'm missing something here when doing my one to one comparison. I'm really puzzled by all the plasma hype when so far what I've witnessed in the show room setting was that the SXRD had much better PQ.

Am I being lead down the garden path by poor show room set up? Can someone supply me with a list of settings that I should be trying on the Panny in this show room setting to give it better PQ? I really want to compare these two products fairly. :(

Thanks :)

[Auditor55]

See examples of dithering:

http://www.webstyleguide.com/graphics/dither.html

Dr. Soneira cited spatial dithering as a weakness of plasma as well as DLP displays. I think is what I'm seeing when I discribe plasmas as noisy and grainy.

RPTV's have their problems, for Lcos, DLP and LCD RPTV displays SSE is one of them. I don't consider the SXRD as grainy or nosiy, I haven't read any where that lcos display such as the SXRD needs or uses spatial dithering.

[reincarnate]

If you are going to go the rear screen route then at least go with the upcoming JVC:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7312694&&#post7312694

JVC color has the highest WOW factor, while the Sony looks frequently gaudy. Note that both are LCoS, but the JVC panel design literally shows more maturity. Sony also has panel temperature issues.
Hey I bough Panasonic 50" plasma after buying SXRD and the 1080 HP. I've had zero problems with it. Less WOW factor, but I usually prefer reality more than fantasy. That being said, I'll probably buy the new JVC, if they prove reliable and implement a decent dynamic iris.
Lastly the Sony Bravia LCD flat panels have a high WOW factor too. Their new 1080p displays (due late this year) should merit serious consideration.

[Auditor55]

[QUOTE=Virtual McNut]Elemental, I definitely wasn't saying that the plasmas are "an inferior product." I honestly do not believe that for one minute. In fact that is why I'm asking these questions. I'm really concerned that I'm missing something here when doing my one to one comparison. I'm really puzzled by all the plasma hype when so far what I've witnessed in the show room setting was that the SXRD had much better PQ.

Am I being lead down the garden path by poor show room set up? Can someone supply me with a list of settings that I should be trying on the Panny in this show room setting to give it better PQ? I really want to compare these two products fairly. :(

Thanks :)[/QUOTE]

Anyone that relies upon showroom floor set ups for "valid" display technology comparison is really headed down the wrong path. :(

[Auditor55]

"I'll probably buy the new JVC"


I bet you won't :)

[plazman]

[QUOTE=reincarnate]If you are going to go the rear screen route then at least go with the upcoming JVC:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7312694&&#post7312694

JVC color has the highest WOW factor, while the Sony looks frequently gaudy. Note that both are LCoS, but the JVC panel design literally shows more maturity. Sony also has panel temperature issues.
Hey I bough Panasonic 50" plasma after buying SXRD and the 1080 HP. I've had zero problems with it. Less WOW factor, but I usually prefer reality more than fantasy. That being said, I'll probably buy the new JVC, if they prove reliable and implement a decent dynamic iris.
Lastly the Sony Bravia LCD flat panels have a high WOW factor too. Their new 1080p displays (due late this year) should merit serious consideration.[/QUOTE]
--------------------

JVC and Panasonic are brands of Matsushita. Not sure why they would not want to consolidate both brands for TV (i.e. stick with Panny since they have market share)

[Virtual McNut]

[QUOTE=Auditor55]See the display technology comparison chart and how plasma ranks with other displays.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1930287,00.asp[/QUOTE]

Auditor55, you'll have to forgive me. I'm not a techy and I'm new to this "Display Technology" scene. Where exactly does the SXRD fit into this scheme of things. I realize its an RP, however wasn't sure where it fit in the article you've mentioned above.

You appear to have done your homework when it comes to displays. What is the recommended minimum viewing distance for a SXRD 60" and the Panny 50"?

What is the"SED" technology that you are patiently waiting for. Is there an article you would recommend I read?

Thx

[jwholm]

[QUOTE=conan48]People should really reconsider LCD's. I have generally hated LCD's because of their problems (motion blur, weak blacks, etc)

However, I have seen the new 65" Sharp 9U LCD and WOW!. This thing beat all the plasma's in terms of black level. It also beat them in shadow detail. Black crush was mininal, and white crush was easily fixed by lowering contrast. I did spend a good 30 minutes calibrating the Sharp and Pio. I saw it righ beside a Pio, phillips, and daytek Plasmas. The new sharps are making their way into stores and I think people should check them out.[/QUOTE]

The problem that I see with large LCD ( 50" or greater) is that you have to take out a second mortgage to buy one. They just are not cost competitive with any of the other technologies in the 50" or greater sizes.

[Elemental1]

Please...that ETech 'fact sheet' is so pro-LCoS....what did you expect?
Yeah....LCoS even ranks above a CRT ;)
Sony's SRXD is a LCoS of sorts, BTW :D

[Elemental1]

[QUOTE=Virtual McNut]Elemental, I definitely wasn't saying that the plasmas are "an inferior product." I honestly do not believe that for one minute. In fact that is why I'm asking these questions. I'm really concerned that I'm missing something here when doing my one to one comparison. I'm really puzzled by all the plasma hype when so far what I've witnessed in the show room setting was that the SXRD had much better PQ.

Am I being lead down the garden path by poor show room set up? Can someone supply me with a list of settings that I should be trying on the Panny in this show room setting to give it better PQ? I really want to compare these two products fairly. :(

Thanks :)[/QUOTE]

I know, no problem. :)
Just keep in mind that I saw en Elite 1130HD look worse than a Panasonic 500u in a showroom ;)

[mark_1080p]

jwholm - prices are plummeting on LCD. Even the larger panels are starting to come down in price as competition heats up. Later this year there will be many new larger panels up to 52", black levels are improving dramatically this year as well.

It's amazing to see this all unfold so quickly.

[billybob_jcv]

[QUOTE=Auditor55]See the display technology comparison chart and how plasma ranks with other displays.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1930287,00.asp[/QUOTE]

My views of that article from the last time the link was posted in this forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7377736#post7377736

You must really enjoy trolling in this forum...

[Auditor55]

[QUOTE=billybob_jcv]My views of that article from the last time the link was posted in this forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7377736#post7377736

You must really enjoy trolling in this forum...[/QUOTE]

You just don't want to accept the flaws of your chosen display technology, so what do you do, like all people who are not interested in truth, you attack the messenger.

[R Harkness]

[QUOTE=conan48]People should really reconsider LCD's. I have generally hated LCD's because of their problems (motion blur, weak blacks, etc)

However, I have seen the new 65" Sharp 9U LCD and WOW!. This thing beat all the plasma's in terms of black level. It also beat them in shadow detail. Black crush was mininal, and white crush was easily fixed by lowering contrast. I did spend a good 30 minutes calibrating the Sharp and Pio. I saw it righ beside a Pio, phillips, and daytek Plasmas. The new sharps are making their way into stores and I think people should check them out.[/QUOTE]


I can't find any "Sharp 9U 65" LCD" by googling. Are you sure you've got the right model number? If what you say is true, it certainly must be a new model, because the current Sharp Aquos 65" model in the stores (which itself is pretty new) certainly does not have the black levels of the better plasmas.

[Auditor55]

[QUOTE=Elemental1]Please...that ETech 'fact sheet' is so pro-LCoS....what did you expect?
Yeah....LCoS even ranks above a CRT ;)
Sony's SRXD is a LCoS of sorts, BTW :D[/QUOTE]

But the question is, why is he pro Lcos? Is it because LCOS sucks as a display technology? Or is it because he can scientifically show how Lcos exceeds other display technologies?

If you are a Plasma owner you need to eat a little humble pie when you read the assesment of various display technologies from a scientist and your chosen technology doesn't come out on top.

If we are going talk about comparisons here we need to talk about the pros and cons of each technology.

The showroom floor comparisons are not valid, in my opinion they are down right foolish.

Its hard to argue with a man with the following credentials:

Dr. Raymond Soneira is President of DisplayMate Technologies Corporation of Amherst, New Hampshire. He is a research scientist with a career that spans physics, computer science, and television system design. Dr. Soneira obtained his Ph.D. in Physics from Princeton University, spent 5 years as a Long-Term Member of the world famous Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, another 5 years as a Principal Investigator in the Computer Systems Research Laboratory at AT&T Bell Laboratories, and has also designed, tested, and installed color television broadcast equipment for the CBS Television Network Engineering and Development Department. He has authored over 35 research articles in scientific journals in physics and computer science, including Scientific American.

If you want to argue with him or refute him, feel free to do so, I want to read your valid assessment of various display technologies.

[Auditor55]

[QUOTE=Virtual McNut]Auditor55, you'll have to forgive me. I'm not a techy and I'm new to this "Display Technology" scene. Where exactly does the SXRD fit into this scheme of things. I realize its an RP, however wasn't sure where it fit in the article you've mentioned above.

You appear to have done your homework when it comes to displays. What is the recommended minimum viewing distance for a SXRD 60" and the Panny 50"?

What is the"SED" technology that you are patiently waiting for. Is there an article you would recommend I read?

Thx[/QUOTE]

I haven't done much homework, there are people here far more knowledgable than I am (even people posting in this thread) and definately not a techy. I'm a layperson, a student trying learn more about this stuff.

Yes, the SXRD is Sony's version of LCOS. While they are very good sets, Sony is having a number of QC problems with them and because of that I would not recommend purchasing one at this time.

Also, SED is discussed briefly in the last part of that article.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1930291,00.asp

[Auditor55]

[QUOTE=R Harkness]I can't find any "Sharp 9U 65" LCD" by googling. Are you sure you've got the right model number? If what you say is true, it certainly must be a new model, because the current Sharp Aquos 65" model in the stores (which itself is pretty new) certainly does not have the black levels of the better plasmas.[/QUOTE]

I think he's referring to the current Sharp Aquos 65 and I seen at Magnolia Hi-fi in Palo Alto and I wasn't impressed with the blacks, may he saw it tweaked and set up better where it demonstrated superior blacks than plasma and other displays. I kind of doubt it since its still and LCD displays, however that might be my bias.

[Artwood]

Troll on--I appreciate it!

[R Harkness]

[QUOTE=Auditor55]Plasma's are just flat out noisy, no denying that. [/quote]

Indeed, there is denying that. For those of us who actually have a lot of experience viewing plasmas.

I've said it often on this forum: if there is one feature of my Panasonic ED plasma that I have rarely if ever found equalled in any other display, it's the general lack of "noise." I'm
extremely sensitive to image noise, dithering, unstable details, pixelation etc. DVDs on my Panasonic ED are rock solid. Just now, while playing Fifth Element I walked up pressing my face two feet from the display, both in "pause" mode and playing mode. It was utterly clean, even from that close. No jostling pixelation, no fidgety colors. No visible dithering, no grain. Nada. Just pixels lit up displaying the image. Very few displays in my experience survive such close inspection.

This display is the reason I've been so picky about my next display, because it's smoothness makes me sensitive to noise in all the other displays I view (including CRT tube sets).

So...you're just plain wrong that plasmas are doomed to be "flat out noisy." I've seen performance close to this from other plasmas too. And of course, I've also seen noisy images on plasmas. Just as I've seen noise in all other display technologies.

The ONLY noise comes from the dithering used for the lower gray scale. That is, shadows just above the deepest gray scale employ dithering to adjust the perceived luminance. However, while you can spot the dithering in deep shadows up close, this dithering is virtually invisible from any rational viewing distance. Which, again, the end result is a fantastically smooth image presentation over-all.


and please don't any of say " not on me set" because you know you are not being truthful.

Auditor: when did you stop beating your wife? ;)

There is really no need to present your opinions with statements like the above.
Perhaps you can just pretend we are all adults here, for a while, okay?

Thanks. Peace.

[Elemental1]

[QUOTE=Auditor55]If you want to argue with him or refute him, feel free to do so, I want to read your valid assessment of various display technologies.[/QUOTE]

Ok, I compared the best of each technology against each other with my eyes and Plasma wins :D
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see the truth ;)

[conan48]

Sorry. The model number is LC-65D90U. Yes, when there was a scene that required true black like a planet floating in space (complete black) the sharp produced a true black. Just as if the pixels were shut off. While the plasma's produced a "glow" throughout the image. The sharp held it's black without any backlight bleeding and it also kept black crush to a minimum. It showed more shadow detail then any of the plasmas. I've heard that later this year the new 45" model will be even further improved with a possible 1500:1 contrast ratio and 6ms response time. Also it will be 1080P. Everyone who saw the display agreed that it was the best looking set in the store. BTW, Many Costco's in Canada carry this model, and it's[EDIT]CAD.

[plazman]

[QUOTE=conan48]Sorry. The model number is LC-65D90U. Yes, when there was a scene that required true black like a planet floating in space (complete black) the sharp produced a true black. Just as if the pixels were shut off. While the plasma's produced a "glow" throughout the image. The sharp held it's black without any backlight bleeding and it also kept black crush to a minimum. It showed more shadow detail then any of the plasmas. I've heard that later this year the new 45" model will be even further improved with a possible 1500:1 contrast ratio and 6ms response time. Also it will be 1080P. Everyone who saw the display agreed that it was the best looking set in the store. BTW, Many Costco's in Canada carry this model, and it's[EDIT]CAD.[/QUOTE]
-------------

I saw a 46inch Sony LCD in the Sony style store on Saturday. Great set, PQ was comparable to the best Plasma (if not better) - only problem is that they had it listed for $15,000! Yes, that's not a typo, 15,000 for 46 inches! Interestingly it was next to their 70 inch (or whatever it is) Qualia (for 13K) and the SXRD (60 inch) and the LCD clearly was the most impressive set on display! The SXRD by comparison had an almost unwatchable picture - like you were looking at a giant jigsaw puzzle composed of tiny little blocks. From a little distance the image looked like someone had painted a picture on cloth.

You could watch the image of the Qualia (which was showing Finding Nemo) from around 3 feet without any distortion at all. Vey impressive, but I would probably wait for the 65 inch 1080p Plasma for that price and save on the extra 24 inches width of the Qualia...

[Zues]

[QUOTE=R Harkness]Indeed, there is denying that. For those of us who actually have a lot of experience viewing plasmas.

I've said it often on this forum: if there is one feature of my Panasonic ED plasma that I have rarely if ever found equalled in any other display, it's the general lack of "noise." I'm
extremely sensitive to image noise, dithering, unstable details, pixelation etc. DVDs on my Panasonic ED are rock solid. Just now, while playing Fifth Element I walked up pressing my face two feet from the display, both in "pause" mode and playing mode. It was utterly clean, even from that close. No jostling pixelation, no fidgety colors. No visible dithering, no grain. Nada. Just pixels lit up displaying the image. Very few displays in my experience survive such close inspection.

This display is the reason I've been so picky about my next display, because it's smoothness makes me sensitive to noise in all the other displays I view (including CRT tube sets).[/QUOTE]


Just because my plasma is noisy i wouldnt claim ALL plasma to be noisy, just like ive seen Sony and hitachi rp-crts side by side and the hitachi is much noiser.. As far as noise in plasmas, i honestly think the rear projections and lcd have a advantage.

[Auditor55]

[QUOTE=R Harkness]Indeed, there is denying that. For those of us who actually have a lot of experience viewing plasmas.

I've said it often on this forum: if there is one feature of my Panasonic ED plasma that I have rarely if ever found equalled in any other display, it's the general lack of "noise." I'm
extremely sensitive to image noise, dithering, unstable details, pixelation etc. DVDs on my Panasonic ED are rock solid. Just now, while playing Fifth Element I walked up pressing my face two feet from the display, both in "pause" mode and playing mode. It was utterly clean, even from that close. No jostling pixelation, no fidgety colors. No visible dithering, no grain. Nada. Just pixels lit up displaying the image. Very few displays in my experience survive such close inspection.

This display is the reason I've been so picky about my next display, because it's smoothness makes me sensitive to noise in all the other displays I view (including CRT tube sets).

I

So...you're just plain wrong that plasmas are doomed to be "flat out noisy." I've seen performance close to this from other plasmas too. And of course, I've also seen noisy images on plasmas. Just as I've seen noise in all other display technologies.

The ONLY noise comes from the dithering used for the lower gray scale. That is, shadows just above the deepest gray scale employ dithering to adjust the perceived luminance. However, while you can spot the dithering in deep shadows up close, this dithering is virtually invisible from any rational viewing distance. Which, again, the end result is a fantastically smooth image presentation over-all.




Auditor: when did you stop beating your wife? ;)

There is really no need to present your opinions with statements like the above.
Perhaps you can just pretend we are all adults here, for a while, okay?

Thanks. Peace.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry that you find the statement offensive, you really shoudn't because it is not directed at you. I'm not really trying to offend you, so if you are offended I will strike that statement from my post. I'm just trying to get plasma owners to admitt the flaws of their chosen display technology so that hopefully plasma set manufacturers will correct those flaws.

If a display technology, at least according to one expert, uses spatial dithering you are going to have noise and grain in the picture. According to Dr. Soneira, and you may disagree with him, DLP's and Plasma employs the use of spatial dithering.

You are far more knowledegable about display technology than I am, so I will take what you have refuted in my post under consideration. As new plasma owner, 50 inch Vizio, I realize I have a lot to learn about this display technology, pros and cons.

[R Harkness]

[QUOTE=Auditor55]I'm sorry that you find the statement offensive, you really shoudn't because it is not directed at you. I'm not really trying to offend you, so if you are offended I will strike that statement from my post. I'm just trying to get plasma owners to admitt the flaws of their chosen display technology so that hopefully plasma set manufacturers will correct those flaws.

If a display technology, at least according to one expert, uses spatial dithering you are going to have noise and grain in the picture. According to Dr. Soneira, and you may disagree with him, DLP's and Plasma employs the use of spatial dithering.

You are far more knowledegable about display technology than I am, so I will take what you have refuted in my post under consideration. As new plasma owner, 50 inch Vizio, I realize I have a lot to learn about this display technology, pros and cons.[/QUOTE]

Thanks auditor. (Not that I think I'm a plasma guru or anything, btw).

I should qualify one thing I said though. Certainly the image on my plasma is not flawless. While dithering has no noticeable artifacts throughout most of the frequency range, so most images are very solid, the fact that the dithering in the lower gray scale does not catch one's eye is due partially to my picture settings too.

The flaw in my panel is that the dithering noise can become visible in shadow areas, when brightness is raised too high. Sometimes I have to keep my brightness a click or two down, so that the shadow areas remain as free of noise as the rest of the image. However, that can sacrifice a little bit of shadow detail. Something like the SXRDs and some other displays certainly do a better job of allowing the full range of shadow detail to remain visible, without the spectre of
visible dithering creeping in.

One of the things that impressed me most about the 8th generation of Panasonic plasmas (I've not seen the newest 9th gen yet) was the improvement in this regard.
I was able to raise the brightness so that shadow detail became more even and detailed than on my own panel, while the bit of dithering in deep shadows remained very subtle from close up, and invisible at a typical viewing distance.

Whereas on my plasma the dithering used for lower gray scale seems more easily "excited" by bumping the brightness up. It can jump from invisible from a viewing distance, to visible and not quite "controlled."

So the latest plasmas, no doubt due to better processing and higher bit rates, are definite improvement over my display in that regard. And the area of shadow detail is something that I hope keeps improving in plasma. Right now the SXRDs I think are still ahead on that count.

Also, I do find dithering/scaling noise more visible on the really big plasmas, like the current Panasonic 65" 720p (Onyx) model. It's one reason why if I bought such a plasma I'd like the option to pair it with an outboard processor.

But image noise still hovers on the top of my list as something I look for whenever I test out a new display. Once you've seen images perfectly clean - with a creamy gorgeous, window-like quality - it's hard to forget it. And it's one of those holy-grails that keep people up at night in the Video Processor forums.

[Elemental1]

Even IF the SRXD was comparable, the form factor eliminates it for me.

[hi im drummer03]

[QUOTE=Elemental1]These SRXD pushers aren't fooling anybody. I mean, come on now....do you see any shortage of SXRD's like we have with Plasma's? ;)[/QUOTE]
Its cause they do use pamnels from other companies.Most plasma companies have to wait on other people to give them parts to build.

[hi im drummer03]

[QUOTE=plazman]-------------

I saw a 46inch Sony LCD in the Sony style store on Saturday. Great set, PQ was comparable to the best Plasma (if not better) - only problem is that they had it listed for $15,000! Yes, that's not a typo, 15,000 for 46 inches! Interestingly it was next to their 70 inch (or whatever it is) Qualia (for 13K) and the SXRD (60 inch) and the LCD clearly was the most impressive set on display! The SXRD by comparison had an almost unwatchable picture - like you were looking at a giant jigsaw puzzle composed of tiny little blocks. From a little distance the image looked like someone had painted a picture on cloth.

You could watch the image of the Qualia (which was showing Finding Nemo) from around 3 feet without any distortion at all. Vey impressive, but I would probably wait for the 65 inch 1080p Plasma for that price and save on the extra 24 inches width of the Qualia...[/QUOTE]
That 46inch is a Qualia 005.It has media reciver,2 HDMI inputs,and a 1080p set with its tripuminos technology.

[hi im drummer03]

[QUOTE=conan48]Sorry. The model number is LC-65D90U. Yes, when there was a scene that required true black like a planet floating in space (complete black) the sharp produced a true black. Just as if the pixels were shut off. While the plasma's produced a "glow" throughout the image. The sharp held it's black without any backlight bleeding and it also kept black crush to a minimum. It showed more shadow detail then any of the plasmas. I've heard that later this year the new 45" model will be even further improved with a possible 1500:1 contrast ratio and 6ms response time. Also it will be 1080P. Everyone who saw the display agreed that it was the best looking set in the store. BTW, Many Costco's in Canada carry this model, and it's[EDIT]CAD.[/QUOTE]
It has TFT's inside of it which work like a plasma.Each individual crystal is controlled.

[Marc D Carra]

It really comes down to personal preference. They are both great sets. I've owned both sets, and still have the Panasonic 50" plasma. The 60" Sony was nice , but having to sit a bit farther away diminished a bit of the wow factor. And it did take up a big chunk of my living room. I'm 7 feet away from my Panasonic which is hanging on the wall, and to me, the experience with HD is breaktaking.

Marc.

[Ken Ross]

[QUOTE=lipcrkr]Westa, i made a post a few weeks ago about the Sony HD DVD Hawaii loop and how incredible the PQ was however, i've seen the Samsung demo on a 1080p Sammy pedestal and was also blown away. The demos do wonderous things because it's pure, no garbage, just clean images. The SXRD leaves a lot to be desired on 480 and SD sources because Sony softens the picture so much it makes some DVD's and SD content grainy. I've seen digital SD sources on the new Panny 60u plasma and it's so much better. I think people need to realize that a lot of their viewing will still include lower rez sources. I always recommend potential buyers having the salespeople tune the TV to SD channels and if they refuse then tell them you'll take your business somewhere else.[/QUOTE]

You are correct. It is very unwise to compare PQ soley on demo material for the simple reason that most material you view will NOT be of this quality. Most of a typical viewer's material will be satellite, cable and OTA. It will not be HD DVD or Blu-Ray. Even if you are to own one of these machines, what % of your viewing time will be dedicated to watching HD DVD/Blu-Ray movies? Probably not too much. Surely not too much for quite some time since there will be very few movies available in either format. Will either format even survive??

It is also unwise to make judgements between two displays while one display is showing demo material and the other is fed a some dramatically inferior signal. How can one possibly judge from a test like this?

Many people that buy an HDTV today, will still be viewing much SD and DVD material. So it is perfectly prudent to determine how well these displays do relative to those sources.

Despite liking the SXRDs, I still find issues like RPTV hot-spotting, uneven color, SSE and a few other issues to make me still gravitate toward plasmas for the best overall PQ.

Of course like anything else, only your eyes can tell you what's best.

[Ken Ross]

[QUOTE=Auditor55]Plasma's are noisy. There is that every present grain in the picture.[/QUOTE]

100% totally false. How can you make such a blanket statement? Neither of my Fujitsu plasmas could even remotely be classified as 'noisy'. In fact, I find plasmas to be among the most noise-free displays I've ever seen. This is why they can produce that 'looking through the window' effect as well or better than any other technology IMO. But noisy? Not even close.

[plazman]

[QUOTE=hi im drummer03]Its cause they do use pamnels from other companies.Most plasma companies have to wait on other people to give them parts to build.[/QUOTE]

---------------

The most guilty here is Panny, that makes everything in house for their plasma!

[Auditor55]

[QUOTE=Ken Ross]100% totally false. How can you make such a blanket statement? Neither of my Fujitsu plasmas could even remotely be classified as 'noisy'. In fact, I find plasmas to be among the most noise-free displays I've ever seen. This is why they can produce that 'looking through the window' effect as well or better than any other technology IMO. But noisy? Not even close.[/QUOTE]

I think there is some validity to an explanation as to why plasma looks more like looking through a window than other display technologies. As one poster suggested, that you are looking through a window, the glass on plasma sets are the same as windows.

Do you agree with Dr. Soneira assesment of plasma technology? I posted a link to his display technology assessment chart. He cited that plasma as well is DLP technology uses something called "spatial" as well as "temporal" dithering, do you agree?

[mark_1080p]

It does not matter what Dr. Soneira states, observations always trump theoretical arguments. Plasma puts out a great picture, regardless of whatever algorithm is used. I have yet to see its equal under proper lighting. Whatever weaknesses there are in the algorithm used by plasma, I would say they are handily overcome in the implementation.

There are lots of theoretical arguments put forth as to why things should not work the way they do, usually the downfall of such arguments is that they are qualitative rather than quantitative. So if Dr. Soneira has been able to quantify this defect, then I would submit that there is an error in his calculations. If not, qualitative arguments must be judged against quantitative observations (i.e. our physiological limitations are quantitative discriminators), which we all do every time we look at a display.

[R Harkness]

[QUOTE=Auditor55]I think there is some validity to an explanation as to why plasma looks more like looking through a window than other display technologies. As one poster suggested, that you are looking through a window, the glass on plasma sets are the same as windows.

[/QUOTE]

Auditor, when most of us talk about the looking-through-a-window effect it refers to an over-all sense of realism in the image, not the feeling one is looking through a pane of glass. I rarely get a looking-at-real-life-through-a-window vibe from CRT tube sets, and they have glass like a plasma. (YMMV on that one of course).

When I view great images on my plasma with the lights down there is no glass visible. I have it against a dark backdrop and the impression is somewhat like looking through a window frame, cut into the backdrop, through which I'm peering at real objects.

Not that the illusion is perfect of course. But the "window-effect" is generally used by some of us, and professional reviewers, to describe a level of realism in an image that makes the display look like a portal on the real event.

While plasma may indeed employ the dithering techniques outlined by Dr. Soneira, it appears some of them are doing it smoothly enough to be mostly unnoticeable at regular viewing distances (and in the case of my plasma, even from up close).

[Ken Ross]

[QUOTE=Auditor55]I think there is some validity to an explanation as to why plasma looks more like looking through a window than other display technologies. As one poster suggested, that you are looking through a window, the glass on plasma sets are the same as windows.

Do you agree with Dr. Soneira assesment of plasma technology? I posted a link to his display technology assessment chart. He cited that plasma as well is DLP technology uses something called "spatial" as well as "temporal" dithering, do you agree?[/QUOTE]

To be perfectly honest Auditor, I didn't read the article. The important point you learn when you've been auditioning displays for many many years, is you use one instrument....your EYES!! BTW, CRTs also have that same 'glass' and don't begin IMO to show that same 'looking through the window' effect as plasmas. It's more than just that surface glass.

[kilroyc]

Timely thread....hehe

I've already ordered the TH-50PX60U but i was in HiFi Buys (Tweeter) over the weekend to look around at displays.

I have to say the 50" SXRD really caught my attention. I did note the different content it was playing, and it makes sense that Sony has produced a custom tailored "Sales Loop" for it. I heard a guy at CC make a comment about the 60" SXRD once saying the input was 'not real', but i didnt put 2 and 2 together until this thread.

I do have one major concern with the plasma and that is glare. The room gets a lot of sunlight in the morning, but most of my TV watching is at night, so it might not be a big issue....dunno.

I see rainbows on DLPs but haven't noticed it on the SXRD yet. Unless i'm mixing up display 'anomalies'.

Thanks for the great thread.

[xb1032]

After just purchasing a 42PX60U for my mom on Saturday night and bringing it home to my house I have to comment here. Since it was late when I made the purchase when I came across a Panasonic 42PX60U [EDIT] an open box model, I took the TV home and then to my Mom's on Sunday early evening.

I currently own the Sony 60" SXRD and have had it since November. Since I'm a TV nut, I couldn't resist the opportunity of connecting the Panasonic Plasma to Direct-TV, playing some DVDs, and checking out what my Xbox360 looks like on it. Before I go any further, yes, I do realize that I'm comparing a 42" television to a 60" TV and the odds will be in favor of the smaller TV.

After my comparisons, I found one advantage of the SXRD. The Size. Second advantage? I can't see the pixels on the SXRD. And that's about it. When I compared the 50" SXRD to the Panasonic in the stores I gave a slight edge to the Panasonic. At home was another story. The SXRD didn't even compare. Yes, the SXRD can look good if it has a really good HD signal. Otherwise it has a soft picture. Last years Panasonic didn't show nearly as much detail in darker areas (which I believe is because Panasonic overly exphasized black enhancement on last years model). This years Panasonic is a different story. It is more detailed than the SXRD, Has better blacks (although not my much), color looks more natural, and sharpness is excellent and isn't artificial looking like on DLPs.

I have to agree with those that posted here stating that the plasmas (at least the Panasonic) looks more like looking out the window. Images looked much more 3D'ish on the Panasonic. SD looked much better (although I realize the smaller screen helps here) and even HD looks better too. Colors were just more rich on the plasma. Shading looks great on the Panasonic making my SXRD just look flat. It's hard to describe the difference but the best example that I can give would be the SXRD looks more like a photo on matte type paper whereas the Panasonic looks more like a picture on a nice glossy paper. The image just pops more.

I do have to admit that burn-in still concerns me on the plasmas despite what others say. I pre-viewed Star Wars Ep III and for the brief time the THX logo appeared on the screen I could see image slight image retention on a black screen for about 5-10 seconds just in that short period of time it was on the screen.

I was so impressed i'm tempted to go for the 58" Panny when it comes out but confusion still sets in. There's still a ways to go in black levels and I'm intrigued with SED possibly coming out next year as well as Mits' laser TV. What to do, what to do.

[mule65]

The SXRD and other good RP's still have the same old problem: There is only one great viewing angle. Move 12" off center in any direction and watch the darkness set in.

[R Harkness]

[QUOTE=xb1032] Colors were just more rich on the plasma. Shading looks great on the Panasonic making my SXRD just look flat. It's hard to describe the difference but the best example that I can give would be the SXRD looks more like a photo on matte type paper whereas the Panasonic looks more like a picture on a nice glossy paper. The image just pops more.

[/QUOTE]

That's a pretty good way to describe it (even though when it comes to photographic prints, I actually prefer matte over glossy :) ).

I was in the Sony store watching the SXRD "Ruby" projector again (very nice, as usual), and then stopped for a while to watch HD on the SXRD RTPVs. There are many great qualities about the SXRD, but it still comes off...as you say...as a sort of "flat" look compared to the creamy, punchy, dimensionality of a plasma. And I simply can't get over the granular "silk screen effect" overlaying the image.

The weird thing about plasmas, especially the Panasonic, is that even compared to displays that exhibit measurably lower black levels (e.g. Sony Ruby, or SXRD RPTVs) the image still looks more solid. In fact, in most circumstances and on lots of material, even the blacks have an appearance of being more solid and deep. This may be to the high ANSI contrast, or some particular character of an emissive vs reflected display. But that's what I keep seeing when I compare them.

[xb1032]

[QUOTE=R Harkness]That's a pretty good way to describe it (even though when it comes to photographic prints, I actually prefer matte over glossy :) ).

I was in the Sony store watching the SXRD "Ruby" projector again (very nice, as usual), and then stopped for a while to watch HD on the SXRD RTPVs. There are many great qualities about the SXRD, but it still comes off...as you say...as a sort of "flat" look compared to the creamy, punchy, dimensionality of a plasma. And I simply can't get over the granular "silk screen effect" overlaying the image.

The weird thing about plasmas, especially the Panasonic, is that even compared to displays that exhibit measurably lower black levels (e.g. Sony Ruby, or SXRD RPTVs) the image still looks more solid. In fact, in most circumstances and on lots of material, even the blacks have an appearance of being more solid and deep. This may be to the high ANSI contrast, or some particular character of an emissive vs reflected display. But that's what I keep seeing when I compare them.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree. Oh, and I forgot to note the SSE. I can live with it but don't care much for it. The Panasonic wasn't as grainy either.The SXRD still has graininess to the picture (though better than DLP) and that's another area where the Panasonic looked better in as well. There just seems to be more intensity in the picture in a plasma. I have to say that i was quite impressed with the panasonic.

I noticed in another thread at one time you were considering going FP. Did you decide to forego FP and wait for the 65" Panny 1080P? I'm at a loss at the moment. If I purchase again I'd like to keep the budget under 5k for a 60" + TV.
I'll probably do a little bit of research to see what options in the near 60" range are on the horizon for 2006 around $5k with black levels around the new Panasonic. Black levels look excellent on the new panny (but still need improvement in a darkened room like every other current 'new' technology).

[bberns22]

[QUOTE=R Harkness]I know what you mean :)

I've been a fan of the SXRDs to some extent. I really can see some things in their image that surpass most other displays. But the whole "gestalt" of the picture just doesn't grab me. The silk screen effect is an absolute killer for me, as I notice it all the time on the SXRD and it flattens the image (to my eyes).

As I continue to encounter the SXRD playing the 1080i sony demo loops I'm actually getting somewhat less impressed. They are still fantastic, but...well...even yesterday I was watching the demo loop on the SXRD and I just wasn't getting that "this is real" vibe. Some shots really stand out very well, but a lot, especially landscapes, have this "painted on" look to the screen. I walked over to the standard demo loops being played on the Panasonic/Pioneer/Hitachi plasmas and the difference in realism just grabbed me. The fly-overs of historical monuments were so solid, clear and "there" it felt like looking right out the helicopter window. Compared to the SXRD and it's silk screen/painterly look, viewing the plasmas (in a somewhat darkened room) was like wiping a window clean of some fine gauze.



As much as I respect the SXRD, and I do mightily (and I can understand why some prefer the image to plasma), I'm much more excited about 1080p
plasma. Actually, I'm more excited about some current 720p plasmas![/QUOTE]

I tend to agree. I have seen the SXRD and Qualia many times, all uncalibrated though. The Quaila's I have seen still have to high a black level for my taste, but again Iris adjustment might change my mind. My Panasonic Industrial Plasma (tightly calibrated) is more pleasing to the eye then any SXRD I have seen. But at the end of the day my 71" 1080 Samsung, also calibrated, smokes any display I have seen.

To be fair until each display is adjusted for optimal grey scale tracking, color accuracy, contrast and brightness uniformity any real conclusion is difficult to make. I am sure I could be happy with the Sonys after a few hours of service menu adjustment. They all have their pluses and minuses and can all be calibrated to deliver a great picture.

[sams00]

I was at CC comparing the Panasonic 50" TH-50PX60U to the Sony 60" KDS-60A2000 SXRD. I had the sales rep switch both sets to the same input source (1080i programming on Comcast cable). IMHO the Sony had a MUCH sharper picture than the Panasonic. I was also surprised that it was a really bright picture. Also, since it was a 60" set, the viewing angle at 10-12' away wasn't really an issue.

I am having a hard time deciding between these two sets. It looks like the Sony is a better display, but I am worried that projection sets (no matter what type LCD,DLP,LCOS) are going to be phased out soon. It seems like flat panel is the way of the future, and the only thing going for the projection sets is the cheaper cost and higher resolutions. I would hate to be stuck with a bulky projection set that I can't get rid of 1-2 years from now.

Has anyone else done a side-by-side subjective comparison between the SXRD and a Panasonic plasma? I'm sure I am not the only one that notices a HUGE difference in picture quality. I am having a hard time going with the Panasonic plasma when I know the SXRD set performs so much better.

[richard korsgren]

[QUOTE=Auditor55]I'm sorry that you find the statement offensive, you really shoudn't because it is not directed at you. I'm not really trying to offend you, so if you are offended I will strike that statement from my post. I'm just trying to get plasma owners to admitt the flaws of their chosen display technology so that hopefully plasma set manufacturers will correct those flaws.

If a display technology, at least according to one expert, uses spatial dithering you are going to have noise and grain in the picture. According to Dr. Soneira, and you may disagree with him, DLP's and Plasma employs the use of spatial dithering.

You are far more knowledegable about display technology than I am, so I will take what you have refuted in my post under consideration. As new plasma owner, 50 inch Vizio, I realize I have a lot to learn about this display technology, pros and cons.[/QUOTE]




In my EDTV plasma of 2 years, I honestly see no flaws, as such. The colors are great, contrast, good, blacks good, whites are white, resolution is right on for SD and DVDs, and HD content looks 'about same' as an HD display at 12-15 feet. You can look at the display one foot and just about everything looks clean. Of course, you can see the dots (pixels) which you should be able to. No missing pixels, nothing has changed over 2 years. Cost of these sets are now around $1300 and the very best buy by far. They are so good I am having a difficult time in buying a new set; been looking for 2 months and still looking. Now, your opinions may vary from mine and that is just fine with me. I know that I have a special display, for me. And that is what is important. Having said all this, of course, there will be improvements in the future. That is the nature of things. That is why I am always out doing window-shopping.

[richard korsgren]

[QUOTE=sams00]I was at CC comparing the Panasonic 50" TH-50PX60U to the Sony 60" KDS-60A2000 SXRD. I had the sales rep switch both sets to the same input source (1080i programming on Comcast cable). IMHO the Sony had a MUCH sharper picture than the Panasonic. I was also surprised that it was a really bright picture. Also, since it was a 60" set, the viewing angle at 10-12' away wasn't really an issue.

I am having a hard time deciding between these two sets. It looks like the Sony is a better display, but I am worried that projection sets (no matter what type LCD,DLP,LCOS) are going to be phased out soon. It seems like flat panel is the way of the future, and the only thing going for the projection sets is the cheaper cost and higher resolutions. I would hate to be stuck with a bulky projection set that I can't get rid of 1-2 years from now.

Has anyone else done a side-by-side subjective comparison between the SXRD and a Panasonic plasma? I'm sure I am not the only one that notices a HUGE difference in picture quality. I am having a hard time going with the Panasonic plasma when I know the SXRD set performs so much better.[/QUOTE]
...........................

The Sony SXRD always catches my eye at BB. For the Size and money, it is a huge best buy. Sitting directly in front of it and at 15 feet plus, is there a display that looks better? Maybe so, to some, but certainly not by much.

[richard korsgren]

Right now, I think the Pioneer 6070 and the 607cmx (monitor) are very good buys and the picture on the screen is right up there with the best. And these 2 displays can be had for over and under $4000 by not to much. Another great buy, in my opinion.