View Full Version : Stretch modes with 4:3 content on DVI/HDMI
bobby_t1
04-27-06, 03:30 AM
I currently have a Sony Grand Wega III RP LCD. I have my Media Center PC connected via DVI and since I don't get HD OTA, I only record SDTV on it. My TV is unable to do any stretching at all of the 4:3 content that comes over the DVI connection.
I"m thinking of buying a plasma and hooking the same Media Center PC via DVI or DVI-->HDMI connection. Will I have the same problem?
RandyWalters
04-27-06, 08:43 AM
[QUOTE=bobby_t1]I currently have a Sony Grand Wega III RP LCD. I have my Media Center PC connected via DVI and since I don't get HD OTA, I only record SDTV on it. My TV is unable to do any stretching at all of the 4:3 content that comes over the DVI connection.
I"m thinking of buying a plasma and hooking the same Media Center PC via DVI or DVI-->HDMI connection. Will I have the same problem?[/QUOTE]I don't think so, and i haven't heard of this problem in the Flat Panel forum, but it might depend on the brand. My Panny plasma's stretch modes work fine as long as it's getting a 480i or 480p signal over HDMI. I don't think very many current plasmas have DVI - most have HDMI now.
DRMIsHurtingUs
04-27-06, 09:43 AM
My Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK plasma is also unwilling to rescale content beyond SD source material.
I am only guessing, but I suspect the conversion processors in most current generation displays are simply unable to more bits around in real-time. Hence, HD rescaling options are limited.
A video processor like the Dragonfly (http://www.algolith.com/index.php?id=dragonfly) can scale HD content but not in "real" realtime. Video processing takes several hundred milliseconds so they delay the audio to resync with the enhanced video.
So while HD scaling is possible, it is interesting to note that the Dragonfly video processor has the same MSRP as my 50" plasma monitor.
Hmmm. Should I scale and enhance my HD content or get two 50" plasmas. What to do? :)
RandyWalters
04-27-06, 11:40 AM
But he's talking about stretching SD, not HD.
DRMIsHurtingUs
04-27-06, 01:05 PM
[QUOTE=RandyWalters]But he's talking about stretching SD, not HD.[/QUOTE]
A savvy vendor would make big $$$ creating devices thart convert SD into good HD. DragonFly is an example of one aspect but it's not THE product.
Millions of HDTVs have been sold (the majority are 720p devices which makes SD->HD even more practical). Add to that, the fact that billions of SD DVDs have been sold. Connecting those billions of content instances to millions of HDTV owners sounds like a good business plan.
Compare that to the HD DVD market. Let's see... about 4 content instances exist and a few disgruntled early adopters who must complain about buying multiple types of content for the foreseeable future.
Under these conditions, how long will it be before HD DVD sales approach that of SD DVD sales? I'd say the "SD->HD upscaling market" has 5 years of life starting with an initial base of 1 billion potential customers.
orogogus
04-27-06, 01:10 PM
[QUOTE=DRMIsHurtingUs]A savvy vendor would will big $$$ by converting SD into good HD.
Millions of HDTVs have been sold (the majority are 720p devices which makes SD->HD even more practical). Add to that, the fact that billions of SD DVDs have been sold. Connecting those billions of content instances to millions of HDTV owners sounds like a good business plan.
Compare that to the HD DVD market. Let's see... about 4 content instances exist and a few disgruntled early adopters who must complain about buying multiple types of content for the foreseeable future.
Under these conditions, how long will it be before HD DVD sales approach that of SD DVD sales? I'd say the "SD->HD upscaling market" has 5 years of life starting with an initial base of 1 billion potential customers.[/QUOTE]
What the heck are you talking about? Upscaling DVD players? Upscaling SD broadcast signals? Using something other than the display's current electronics? It's hard to polish a turd... not to mention anyone with a fixed pixel display is already doing an upconversion (even though they are more than likely ignorant of this fact). Creating information via guess is far inferior to the information already being there (ie SD upscale vs HD)...
DRMIsHurtingUs
04-27-06, 01:31 PM
[QUOTE=orogogus]What the heck are you talking about? Upscaling DVD players? Upscaling SD broadcast signals? Using something other than the display's current electronics? It's hard to polish a turd...[/QUOTE]
Not so. The majority of artifacts visible after SD->HD conversion are the result of compression not scaling. If I send a raw uncompressed 480p signal (or even moderately compressed DV footage) from my computer to my 720p display, I get excellent results.
Broadcasters would get 2X compression improvement today by simply changing from 720/60p to 720/30p. 720/30p is virtually undetectable on progressive devices (which accounts 99+% of the 2006 market).
DVD conversion is harder. But so far vendors have spent their time trying to improve resolution. A mulitpass scan of highly compressed DVD content to remove obvious ghosts, halos and anti-aliasing errors, will work wonders.
Given the fractured HD DVD market that will endure for the next few years, the SD->HD conversion market is quite viable.
DRMIsHurtingUs
04-27-06, 01:39 PM
[QUOTE=RandyWalters]But he's talking about stretching SD, not HD.[/QUOTE]
BTW: During my rant about the sad state of the HD DVD market, I didn't answer the question.
He is not trying to convert SD->HD (although I am :)). He is saying that any time content has greater resolution than 480i/p, his monitor will not allow aspect ratio changes (or zooming either, I assume).
Many of today's TV's won't do it because they don't have the internal processing power to move around anything greater than 720x480 pixel frame buffers. Since you can't change the TV, your only choice is to modify the source before it gets to the TV. While your at it, you might as well improve the picture and upscale it too (see. I'm back to my original product).
Hmm, my Toshiba plasma allows me to stretch content in both SD and HD modes. There are 5 possible modes (normal, three zoom/stretches, and full). In SD, all are active while, in HD, the full mode is disabled (as the signal is already 16:9). The other stretch modes are active, however, so you can modify 4:3 content to fill your screen or simply use a zoom of sorts.
bobby_t1
04-27-06, 06:21 PM
What i'm talking about is stretching 4:3 content in an HD signal. My Media Center is outputting an 720p signal over DVI and i watn to stretch this to fill the entire screen when there is 4:3 content to prevent burn in.
So while i mentioned SD, i really meant "4:3 content on HD".
If it's HD, it's 16:9, full frame, and there is nothing to stretch. By that, I mean, you can take a 16:9 black stage and put whatever you want in the middle of it. You don't "have' to use the entire 16x9 stage. That's basically how they fake 16:9 on a 4:3 stage (by placing the frame at 16:9 aspect ratio inside a 4:3 black stage).
So, it's already at the edge..there is nothing to stretch. It's just that the edge is "black". Does that make sense?
The only option you'd have in that is to "zoom" the HD content.
bobby_t1
04-27-06, 06:51 PM
[QUOTE=darylc]If it's HD, it's 16:9, full frame, and there is nothing to stretch. By that, I mean, you can take a 16:9 black stage and put whatever you want in the middle of it. You don't "have' to use the entire 16x9 stage. That's basically how they fake 16:9 on a 4:3 stage (by placing the frame at 16:9 aspect ratio inside a 4:3 black stage).
So, it's already at the edge..there is nothing to stretch. It's just that the edge is "black". Does that make sense?[/QUOTE]
apparantly the NEC 50XR5 can scale HD signals.. so are you sure? Unless i'm interpreting that other thread wrong..
You can scale 4:3 from 480 to 1080..does it change aspect ratio from 4:3 to 16:9 (or relationship of h to w)? I dont' think so. You have to stretch it to do that.
The point I'm trying to make is this....some HD content, is SD made in 4:3 aspect ratio placed in a 16:9 frame. Do you understand? They just repurpose the content by placing the 4:3 material in the middle of a 16:9 black square. But, what is "actually" on that film/movie/broadcast source is 720 or 1080 16:9 signal. There is nothing to stretch because despite "looking" like there is room for it to stretch (ie..black space on either side), it's actually already full frame 16:9 ..edge to edge. That part (the black part) is actually part of the frame...not the TV displaying black. Do you understand?
They are 2 different things.
Take a piece of paper that's 4:3 and and place it inside a bigger box. Can you move it around? Yes. Now draw a 4:3 square "on" the box. Can you move it? No. Not without moving the entire box.
Elemental1
04-27-06, 07:48 PM
[QUOTE=darylc]Now draw a 4:3 square "on" the box. Can you move it? No. Not without moving the entire box.[/QUOTE]
I believe some of the new TV's can move the box in HD. :D
I don't like the idea of changing the HD signal at all even though some HD broadcasters are clueless and manage to still have little bars in the feed. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Elemental1]I believe some of the new TV's can move the box in HD. :D
I don't like the idea of changing the HD signal at all even though some HD broadcasters are clueless and manage to still have little bars in the feed. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
I don't know of any TVs that have a "zoom" mode with HD signals via HDMI. I don't know of any DVDrs or cable set top boxes or OTA tuners that do either. There is nowhere to move the box too.
However,in theory ..it's possible.... if you allow the frame to loose resolution. (do you understand.....not "gain" resolution beyond HD..but "loose" it).
If you have photoshop, or some other image editing pixel based raster program, make a new image at the highest square pixel HD size 1080x1920 at 72 or 96dpi (depending on mac or PC). Then draw a 4:3 square in the middle of it (that's what we are talking about). That would be 720x 534( for D1 720x480_.9 pixel aspect ratio) in square pixels. NTSC..it's different for PAL). Place some image/screen shot in that square. And then scale it (in photoshop use command (mac)or control (PC)"T" for transform) holding down the shift key to keep it proportional, until it fills the entire HD 1080 area. NOW look at the resolution of that image. YUK!.
You just threw away half the resolution of that image. (even though you made it "bigger".
Half of it (or near) is off screen entirely. And the pixels that are left are now near half the resolution they started at.
Are you starting to get the picture? It's a "gimmick" that ain't gonna work accept on paper.
bobby_t1
04-28-06, 01:08 AM
[QUOTE=darylc]I don't know of any TVs that have a "zoom" mode with HD signals via HDMI. I don't know of any DVDrs or cable set top boxes or OTA tuners that do either. There is nowhere to move the box too.
However,in theory ..it's possible.... if you allow the frame to loose resolution. (do you understand.....not "gain" resolution beyond HD..but "loose" it).[/QUOTE]
The NEC 50XR5 can apparantly zoom HD via HDMI, just got confirmation in the NEC thread.
Then you are loosing resolution and clipping the content ...to make it "bigger" within the already existing HD frame.
bobby_t1
04-28-06, 01:33 AM
[QUOTE=darylc]Then you are loosing resolution and clipping the content ...to make it "bigger" within the already existing HD frame.[/QUOTE]
trying to avoid burn-in actually..
Ah..hahahaha.
Didn't you know? Burn in is a myth? Your modern plasma is just like any CRT.
hehehehe.
bobby_t1
04-28-06, 01:37 AM
[QUOTE=darylc]Ah..hahahaha.
Didn't you know? Burn in is a myth? Your modern plasma is just like any CRT.
hehehehe.[/QUOTE]
oh wow... news to me. How can you tell I"m new to Plasmas :) This alleviates my concerns then!
sorry Bobby,
Not directed at you at all. It all makes sense now. It's not about the PQ. It's not about the resolution vs what gets lost at 1080. It's about keeping your plasma from retaining a ghost of those darn 4:3 bars at 1080.
bobby_t1
04-28-06, 01:46 AM
[QUOTE=darylc]sorry Bobby,
Not directed at you at all. It all makes sense now. It's not about the PQ. It's not about the resolution vs what gets lost at 1080. It's about keeping your plasma from retaining a ghost of those darn 4:3 bars at 1080.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, i'm afraid of ghosting the 4:3 bars.. do i have to worry about that? the content i watch is mixed 60/40 in favor of HD on my comcast HD STB. But there is 40% of my programming that is recorded on my Media Center PC that is 4:3. ugh.
It depends on who you talk to. According to the "mythbusting" section here on this forum and some others, if you follow the break in procedure for your new plasma, vary content, use stretch mode, etc..etc..for the first 100 hours, you can pretty much do anything you want and never have a problem after that. According to those who've experienced image retention...it doesn't always work out that way. I would guess if you watch anywhere close to 50% 4:3...you are going to have a problem somewhere down the line. My suggestion...once you start to see the ghosting (or even before)...would be to start running the "reverse" 4:3 burn in image (you can download that on this forum). IT's basically a reverse image...black center/white wings. Just run that when you aren't watching it..to try and even out some of the wear. Or, you can just run a bunch of HD full screen looped crap when you aren't watching it...etc. Frankly..I'm just not so sure that Plasmas look "that" much better to warrant the trouble. But, ..to each their own.
bobby_t1
04-28-06, 02:38 AM
[QUOTE=darylc] Frankly..I'm just not so sure that Plasmas look "that" much better to warrant the trouble. But, ..to each their own.[/QUOTE]
"That much better" than what? LCD? RP LCD? I'm looking at Plasma because of size concerns -- want something way thinner than my current Sony GWIII RP LCD and direct LCDs aren't coming in 50".
Supermans
04-28-06, 02:44 AM
I just use the zoom function on my DVD player.
I don't know of any TVs that have a "zoom" mode with HD signals via HDMI.
As I said above, my Toshiba 42HPX95 can use various stretching and zoom modes in HD via HDMI (or any input). There is a stretch mode which basically was created for handling 4:3 content viewed in 720p and will give you a full 16:9 view. It does seem to be quite rare, however.
if you follow the break in procedure for your new plasma, vary content, use stretch mode, etc..etc..for the first 100 hours, you can pretty much do anything you want and never have a problem after that
Not necessarily true (the 100 hour requirement). Within the first few hours of owning a plasma, I was already playing games with static huds. On the first night, I played three hours of Condemned, which features a high contrast, bright red bar to represent your life. I've displayed my PC on screen for over 6 hours, played tons of games with static elements, and always view 4:3 with black bars. No problems.
Elemental1
04-28-06, 09:44 AM
[QUOTE=darylc] Frankly..I'm just not so sure that Plasmas look "that" much better to warrant the trouble. But, ..to each their own.[/QUOTE]
Just as in your last comments, you might want to check your facts again with the new hardware. Plasma is #1....and the marketplace reflects that. :D
Hmm...I don't recall stating that as a "fact". ...but an opinion.
[QUOTE=bobby_t1]"That much better" than what? LCD? RP LCD? I'm looking at Plasma because of size concerns -- want something way thinner than my current Sony GWIII RP LCD and direct LCDs aren't coming in 50".[/QUOTE]
Should be here by June/July.
Elemental1
04-28-06, 10:01 AM
[QUOTE=darylc]Hmm...I don't recall stating that as a "fact". ...but an opinion.[/QUOTE]
You don't form opinions based on facts? :D
Sure. It's a "fact" that I feel this way about plasmas.
Elemental1
04-28-06, 10:09 AM
Sounds like a 'no' to me ;)
DRMIsHurtingUs
04-28-06, 10:31 AM
[QUOTE=Supermans]I just use the zoom function on my DVD player.[/QUOTE]
Exactly! If your display cannot handle scalling/zoomin/widening of 720p and higher content (looks like many can't), then get a player that can. SD DVDs are 480p max. Pretty easy to process.
FrankieP
04-28-06, 11:08 AM
[QUOTE=bobby_t1]I currently have a Sony Grand Wega III RP LCD. I have my Media Center PC connected via DVI and since I don't get HD OTA, I only record SDTV on it. My TV is unable to do any stretching at all of the 4:3 content that comes over the DVI connection.
I"m thinking of buying a plasma and hooking the same Media Center PC via DVI or DVI-->HDMI connection. Will I have the same problem?[/QUOTE]
Bobby,
If you use MCE to watch live TV then you can use MCE's Zoom option and stretch the 4:3 signal to fill the entire screen. You can press your remote's "i" (More) button and a window will pop-up so you can view "Program Info, Zoom, and Settings". When you choose Zoom, you can choose 4 different stretch modes. The 1st will be no stretching of the 4:3 material, the 2nd will zoom and crop the 4:3 material to fill the entire screen, the 3rd is letterbox mode and the 4rth is the one I actually prefer which will stretch the sides to fill in the screen and preserve the center. Somewhat like Panasonic's "Just" mode.
I have a Panny 50" 8UK and my MCE HTPC connected via DVI. I couldn't use the Panny's zoom features at all over DVI. So my solution was to use the software's zoom features instead. And it actually surprised me that it does a very good job at it. Watching stretched analog 4:3 material on my panny plasma and MCE HTPC is very tolerable.
bobby_t1
04-28-06, 11:39 AM
[QUOTE=FrankieP]Bobby,
If you use MCE to watch live TV then you can use MCE's Zoom option and stretch the 4:3 signal to fill the entire screen. You can press your remote's "i" (More) button and a window will pop-up so you can view "Program Info, Zoom, and Settings". When you choose Zoom, you can choose 4 different stretch modes. The 1st will be no stretching of the 4:3 material, the 2nd will zoom and crop the 4:3 material to fill the entire screen, the 3rd is letterbox mode and the 4rth is the one I actually prefer which will stretch the sides to fill in the screen and preserve the center. Somewhat like Panasonic's "Just" mode.
I have a Panny 50" 8UK and my MCE HTPC connected via DVI. I couldn't use the Panny's zoom features at all over DVI. So my solution was to use the software's zoom features instead. And it actually surprised me that it does a very good job at it. Watching stretched analog 4:3 material on my panny plasma and MCE HTPC is very tolerable.[/QUOTE]
Great info, thanks! i didn't even know MCE could do this. I don't use my MCE to watch live TV, just timeshifted. I use my Comcast HD STB for watching live tv.
Elemental1
04-28-06, 12:43 PM
Keep in mind that DVI --> DVI/VGA behaves differently than DVI --> HDMI. :)
[QUOTE=Elemental1]Sounds like a 'no' to me ;)[/QUOTE]
Opinion: it is my opinion, based on my viewing habits, based on the facts of when and how a plasma display might be an issue in lieu of those particluar facts, that they aren't worth the trouble under those conditions. It's purely subjective opinion, but it's based on factual information.
Elemental1
04-28-06, 02:30 PM
[QUOTE=darylc]Opinion: it is my opinion, based on my viewing habits, based on the facts of when and how a plasma display might be an issue in lieu of those particluar facts, that they aren't worth the trouble under those conditions. It's purely subjective opinion, but it's based on factual information.[/QUOTE]
Oh come on now...
Frankly..I'm just not so sure that Plasmas look "that" much better to warrant the trouble.
That's sounds like more than opinion in your own viewing environment. ;)
[QUOTE=Elemental1]Oh come on now...
Frankly..I'm just not so sure that Plasmas look "that" much better to warrant the trouble.
That's sounds like more than opinion in your own viewing environment. ;)[/QUOTE]
Uhhhuuuuuu. The opinion police. :)
Well um...how about kiss my arse. :)
Elemental1
04-28-06, 11:10 PM
[QUOTE=darylc]Uhhhuuuuuu. The opinion police. :)
Well um...how about kiss my arse. :)[/QUOTE]
Why add insult to injury? :D
Who the HELL are you to decide what "my" opinion should be???
Do YOu know me?
And if you want to play..then lets play....exactly "what" FACTS..do I have wrong ?
That if you leave 4:3 bars up long enough they might be a problem on a plasma (true or false)
That having to deal with that..is a PITA (my opinion)? )( YOU don't need to answer that).
Just who the **** do you think you are?
Elemental1
04-28-06, 11:20 PM
[QUOTE=darylc]Who the HELL are you to decide what "my" opinion should be???
Do YOu know me?
And if you want to play..then lets play....exactly "what" FACTS..do I have wrong ?
That if you leave 4:3 bars up long enough they might be a problem on a plasma (true or false)
That having to deal with that..is a PITA (my opinion)? )( YOU don't need to answer that).
Just who the **** do you think you are?[/QUOTE]
Don't make me open this up! :D
[QUOTE=Elemental1]Don't make me open this up! :D[/QUOTE]
hahahahha. Go for it dude. Please do.
Please explain to me...why my opinion should be filtered through YOU. Hahahaha.
FACT:
Plamas WILL retain 4:3 bars if you view enough of it.....(true or false)?
FACT: That's why peoples are here in this thread trying to figure out how/why they can't zoom or otherwise stretch or distort a full HD signal that's made with 4:3 box in the middle.?
Opinion:
Stretched 4:3 or zoomed 4:3 looks like ****. It's worse than imaginary ghosting.
Come on now....lets not back out now...Mr Whooparse.
Woodrow
04-29-06, 12:01 AM
thread closed
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