View Full Version : Motion Blur on Plasmas?
Hello all,
I got my first plasma TV a few months ago and every once in a while I notice motion blur.
Clearly, the motion blur is caused by what's being displayed and it can be severe (such as a couple CVS commercials with a lot of white on screen and facial closeups which look like the person is "morphing" while speaking) or just on the verge of motion blur (I noticed this last night on The Sopranos, especially during scenes with a lot of black in the background and the characters were brightly lit).
Are you guys noticing this with your plasmas? I didn't think plasmas could have motion blur and thought it could be an issue primarily with LCDs.
tangfoot
06-05-06, 12:14 PM
You may want to tell us a few things more.
What model TV do you have?
How are you receiving your signal?
What input is it connected to on the TV?
It's probably a source problem, but impossible to tell at this point due to the lack of info.
kclfoxtrot
06-05-06, 12:26 PM
On my Toshiba 50hp95, I notice a green shadow/trail on fast moving dark objects against a light/white background. This was very noticable when the Buffalo Sabres (dark jerseys) were playing. The jerseys had a green trail when the players moved across the screen. The shadow/trail was not there during moderate moving images or static images. I immediately went to my Sony SXRD and did not notice the same effect.
[QUOTE=tangfoot]You may want to tell us a few things more.
What model TV do you have?
How are you receiving your signal?
What input is it connected to on the TV?
It's probably a source problem, but impossible to tell at this point due to the lack of info.[/QUOTE]
I have the new Panasonic 60U model, the 50 inch. I have iO digital cable by Cablevision connected to a Scientific Atlanta 8300HD cable box. It's connected via component cables.
Again, I definitely don't see it all the time, and it seems that when I DO see it, it has something to do with the composition of the picture being displayed. The CVS commercials are way over the top though, VERY strange looking. I've seen it happen on one HDTV program as well, a program about the Florida Everglades.
For those with this plasma (many of you, since it's a popular model), you're really not seeing the motion blur on some shows??
Since I last posted about this I've seen motion blur several more times. Last night I watched a segment of a show called "The Blitz: London's Longest Night" (channel 713 WNET here) The motion blur was so extreme it looked like something you'd see on an acid trip.
I'm still trying to figure out what's causing it. It looks like it occurs mostly when there's a primarily bright or dark background, while you have a well-lit closeup of a person's face. Last night though, it was blurring all over the place during The Blitz: London's Longest Night.
Management
06-13-06, 11:01 AM
You should have gotten the Samsung HP-S5053 lol nah thats the bias talking, but these two are the most popular models IMO and this thread has just swayed me closer to the Sammy. I would think its not the TV but the source. How is your other HDTV viewing?
[QUOTE=DNero]For those with this plasma (many of you, since it's a popular model), you're really not seeing the motion blur on some shows??
Since I last posted about this I've seen motion blur several more times. Last night I watched a segment of a show called "The Blitz: London's Longest Night" (channel 713 WNET here) The motion blur was so extreme it looked like something you'd see on an acid trip.
I'm still trying to figure out what's causing it. It looks like it occurs mostly when there's a primarily bright or dark background, while you have a well-lit closeup of a person's face. Last night though, it was blurring all over the place during The Blitz: London's Longest Night.[/QUOTE]
It is most likely the signal. I have seen it as well but not when I am watching a newer show shot in HD or on a higher bit rate show. For some reason on HGTV it is sometimes unwatchable, but ESPNHD, ESPN2HD, etc, etc. I have never seen anything like that. Regardless of the the show is HD or SD. Hope this helps
[QUOTE=giggle]It is most likely the signal. I have seen it as well but not when I am watching a newer show shot in HD or on a higher bit rate show. For some reason on HGTV it is sometimes unwatchable, but ESPNHD, ESPN2HD, etc, etc. I have never seen anything like that. Regardless of the the show is HD or SD. Hope this helps[/QUOTE]
I know what you mean about HGTV. I've seen it on that channel pretty frequently. What type of TV do you own?
Management, with regard to HD viewing, it seems random, sometimes it's there, sometimes not. Sometimes it happens during an episode (such as when they cut to a new scene). I might be wrong, but I keep thinking that something in the composition of what's being displayed triggers it. Maybe a combination of a certain amount of dark and bright pixels or something? Very odd.
[QUOTE=DNero] Sometimes it happens during an episode (such as when they cut to a new scene). [/QUOTE]
I should clarify. It's not during the cut to the new scene, or when they fade. What I mean is scenes A, B, C, etc., can look fine. Then they cut to a closeup of someone's face (such as during an interview), and you can notice that the darker creases in the subject's forehead are not moving along with his head, for example.
That sounds like dropped packets in the MPEG stream
R Harkness
06-13-06, 01:37 PM
[QUOTE=DNero]I should clarify. It's not during the cut to the new scene, or when they fade. What I mean is scenes A, B, C, etc., can look fine. Then they cut to a closeup of someone's face (such as during an interview), and you can notice that the darker creases in the subject's forehead are not moving along with his head, for example.[/QUOTE]
What you are describing are almost certainly the effects of digital signal compression. It's coming from the source (i.e. your cable provider's signal) not the plasma. Cable/Sat companies often employ digital compression algorithms in order to fit all the digital channels into the available bandwidth. Some channels are compressed more than others - and it can vary with the program, which some channels having lots of compression at one portion of the day, and less later on. So it's hit and miss.
But one of the ways those compression schemes work is to analyse sequences of fields (or frames of the image) and determine which parts of the image are moving, and which are not. For instance, you have a still shot of a guy against a wall. The guy starts moving around in the frame. But of course the wall isn't moving at all. So why waste digital bits on repeatedly showing essentially the same still image of the wall? Instead of devoting "new" digital information to objects that aren't moving, the compression schemes says "object A isn't moving, so just repeat the same pixels of information for object A."
Whereas if "object B" is moving, it is necessary to devote new bits of information processing, as the visual information on B changes in suceeding frames.
So in essence, the digitization scheme looks at the next frame(s) of the wall and determines the wall hasn't moved, and thus doesn't devote any "new" information to the wall; just repeats the same image. But since the guy is moving, the new visual information of that guy which changes with each frame is processed. In theory, therefore, you get what looks like the same image before and after compression: a guy moving against a static background. (Of course if the camera starts panning, then the wall image will be changing frame to frame, and system resources will kick in to reproduce that differing info in the succession of frames, and the bit rate goes higher).
So that's it in general theory. Unfortunately, especially if the compression rate is high, in the real world it can result in some odd looking artifacts as the processing attempts to "catch up" with moving parts of the image, or makes slightly "wrong" decisions as to what should be moving or not. When the compression is really high you get odd things like someone moving their head and their eyes staying put a bit too long in the frame, like their eyes aren't quite attached to their head. When people talk certain parts of their face move and sometimes other parts (like eyes or forehead) move less. The compression is sort of saying "Well, these parts of his face aren't moving right now (.e.g. his eyes or forehead) so we'll just repeat the image of his eyes and...whoops...he moved his head and his eyes moved...better get that information about his eyes moving....whoops a little too late there...didn't get his eyes quite in sync with his head...."
That kind of thing. That goes for those "darker creases" on someone's head not moving or whatever. (There are also other things that can happen with the source, in terms of loosing information, that can cause weird looking anomolies).
(It's also why very early DVDs can suck so much - due to the less able compression methods you get those types of artifacts. I remember seeing demos of the first DVDs in stores and thinking how odd they looked. Like when you'd see scenes of Africa, the landscape would alternate between moving and then, whenever it was static for a moment it would click into this "painterly" quality....because the compression scheme was just repeating the static information to save digital bits).
Plasmas have fast enough response time that such blurring as you are describing is not a problem inherent in the technology. So it's almost assuredly the source.
However (not knowing your plasma brand) it could be the plasma in one regard: some digital displays like plasma use their own digital image processing, to remove noise or "enhance the image" or whatever. These operate along principles not too unlike the digital manipulations I've been describing, and hence you can get some of the same type of "processing lag," which can cause unusual effects.
The "vivid" mode of a plasma is most often the culprit here, as often all the processing possible is thrown at the image in that mode, to "impress" the viewer. However, some of the digital processing may still be on even in other picture modes on the plasma, and you have to go through the settings, find the digital processing modes (like Digital Noise Reduction features) and turn them off.
Hope this helps.
Thank you, Rich. You're always very helpful!
Well, I guess it's good to hear that it's likely not a fault of the new TV that I selected! It's more of an issue that happens sometimes with digital transmissions in general. It's also nice to know that I should stop looking for common denominators in the scenes that blur. I was almost convinced that there was something about what was being displayed that caused the blurring.
As for my TV settings, it's in standard mode, not vivid, and any noise reduction settings are off.
Great description of the situation Rich, much appreciated. One question though, I have noticed this on my LCD, but not my 27 in. CRT. Is that just because of the size, making it more noticeable or something to do with the cablebox as my CRT is not hooked up to an HD box. Just Curious???
[QUOTE=giggle]Great description of the situation Rich, much appreciated. One question though, I have noticed this on my LCD, but not my 27 in. CRT. Is that just because of the size, making it more noticeable or something to do with the cablebox as my CRT is not hooked up to an HD box. Just Curious???[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah! Great point. My new 50" Panasonic replaced a 12 year old 35" ProScan CRT. I've never seen such a thing on the ProScan, not once.
mconstant
06-13-06, 05:15 PM
[QUOTE=DNero]Oh yeah! Great point. My new 50" Panasonic replaced a 12 year old 35" ProScan CRT. I've never seen such a thing on the ProScan, not once.[/QUOTE]
I don't know about your situation but I got a Plasma and noticed blurring an compression problems when watching basketball/baseball. I thought it was weird because people were telling me it was the dish. I had never seen it on my 21". So one night I decided to watch a game on my 21" and noticed horrible blurring. So it makes me really think that it is the signal. I have the 42" inch version of your tv. If you are like me you recieved your plasma or first HDTV and every little possible problem is sticking out at you. Don't worry about it. You should be fine.
R Harkness
06-13-06, 05:29 PM
For quite a while after I recieved my plasma I still have my 27" CRT set. I checked out the "blurring" issue, as far as motion goes, and never saw blurring on my plasma that was not on my 27" CRT set (i.e. pointing to the digital compression of the cable feed). When the signal isn't to blame, motion is beautiful on my plasma, as it is on my CRT.
(I'm sure that there is still room ultimately for improvement as far as the development of plasma and other flat panels in terms of response time, but there have been no movement "issues" on my plasma, any different than my CRT).
[QUOTE=Elemental1]DNero,
[EDIT] I will say that I do not see motion blur on mine. :cool:[/QUOTE]
Try watching HGTV, my best friend has the same model as you and sees it as well. Also you don't use a cablebox, so that could be it as well, not sure though :confused:
[QUOTE=R Harkness]For quite a while after I recieved my plasma I still have my 27" CRT set. I checked out the "blurring" issue, as far as motion goes, and never saw blurring on my plasma that was not on my 27" CRT set (i.e. pointing to the digital compression of the cable feed). When the signal isn't to blame, motion is beautiful on my plasma, as it is on my CRT.
(I'm sure that there is still room ultimately for improvement as far as the development of plasma and other flat panels in terms of response time, but there have been no movement "issues" on my plasma, any different than my CRT).[/QUOTE]
So it is probably magnified b/c of the size of the television. That's what I was thinking as well, I will see if I notice it on my CRT tonight.
briankmonkey
06-13-06, 06:22 PM
I do see motion blurr at stores as well at home with the 50" Vizio over the fireplace. The motion blurr is definitely not the source as using the same source on CRT there no motion blurr. It however isn't as bad as the motion blurr on the 40" Samsung LCD I was using prior to the Vizio.
vancouver
06-13-06, 06:57 PM
I have to chime in hear because motion blur is something I am very sensitive too, and have tried eliminate it a few ways. What I call motion blur is not "gohsting" but for example simply loosing detail and sharpness as object move accross the screen. My friend has a B&O Avent CRT and I can assure you it has no motion blur. It doesnt matter what channel or what source you watch, the picture qualty with repsect to motion is the best I have ever seen.
My experience is that ALL plasma's have it. I had a TH 42PX20 from panasonic which had it. I then bought arguably the best plasma you can get which is a Current Fujitsu 50" which has it on all channels, and added a high end external video processor (iscan HD) to completely bypass the processor in the Fujitsu...and still have it.
The best I have seen it is when playing COD2 from XBOX 360 which is native 60FPS 720p. Even still it is noticatble.
Again having the top of the line plasma, and video processor isnt even in the same league as fare as motion goes as my friends B&O avante. Its has to be plasma's in general.
[QUOTE=vancouver]I have to chime in hear because motion blur is something I am very sensitive too, and have tried eliminate it a few ways. What I call motion blur is not "gohsting" but for example simply loosing detail and sharpness as object move accross the screen. My friend has a B&O Avent CRT and I can assure you it has no motion blur. It doesnt matter what channel or what source you watch, the picture qualty with repsect to motion is the best I have ever seen.
My experience is that ALL plasma's have it. I had a TH 42PX20 from panasonic which had it. I then bought arguably the best plasma you can get which is a Current Fujitsu 50" which has it on all channels, and added a high end external video processor (iscan HD) to completely bypass the processor in the Fujitsu...and still have it.
The best I have seen it is when playing COD2 from XBOX 360 which is native 60FPS 720p. Even still it is noticatble.
Again having the top of the line plasma, and video processor isnt even in the same league as fare as motion goes as my friends B&O avante. Its has to be plasma's in general.[/QUOTE]
Why then would it be only on certain channels??? Or we talking about different things here... I guess what I am referring to would constitute as ghosting. I think I do know what you are refering to and have yet to see a plasma or LCD that is perfect at it.
IamAnoobieCheez
06-13-06, 07:42 PM
guys (except for Rich:D),
The Plasma only outputs what you put in. You want better picture quality? you've better put damn good quality video source. Most TV stations top out at under 30FPS. Human eyes don't see the frame drop beyond 60FPS. But the TV CRT screens have "motion smoothing". That's why you hardly notice frame drops or severe blurring when watching CRT TV. For the plasma to deliver solid motion you need a 60FPS video feed. That's why some HD channels with 720p/60fps delivers great motion performance with descent resolution. I also have some high def 60fps video clips and they... are.... awesome. ZERO frame drops, rock solid.
The LCDs I'm afraid to say, is the worst choice. You are asking for trouble there. Even if you feed 60fps video, you will experience motion blur. That's the limitation of the LCD technology. I also play PC video games on my Plasma but because my PC is too damn fast, I am able to run it at very high resolutions and graphics detail settings and be able to maintain 60~ 200 FPS depending on games. NO motion blur experienced, because it's at high frames per second.
The "Key terms of the day" are: LCD & TV source. These two are the problems.
:p
briankmonkey
06-13-06, 07:49 PM
The LCDs I'm afraid to say, is the worst choice. You are asking for trouble there. Even if you feed 60fps video, you will experience motion blur.
also true with plasma from my personal experience on a few different Plasma sets. Not as severe as some LCD's with not so good response times but still definitely exhibiting motion blurring. Others have had similar experiences as well.
Of course some people tell me they don't notice motion blurring on LCD's either. Which is good for them ;)
IamAnoobieCheez
06-13-06, 08:10 PM
Ya know what.... I think I got mixed up with the words "motion blur" and "motion stuttering/frame drop". Nevermind my post......... :embarassed::o
R Harkness
06-13-06, 08:17 PM
[QUOTE=giggle]Why then would it be only on certain channels??? Or we talking about different things here... I guess what I am referring to would constitute as ghosting. I think I do know what you are refering to and have yet to see a plasma or LCD that is perfect at it.[/QUOTE]
Vancouver is talking about a different phenomenon than the problem reported by Dnero.
Dnero's "blurring" was almost certainly due to problems in the source - i.e. high compression rate artifacts.
Vancouver feels that he sees the limitations of plasma response time when it comes to fast moving objects in general. Which would relate to any fast motion in general, no matter what source.
I don't think plasma is perfect, but every time I tried to put my finger on a response time artifact - "aha, I see the blur" - comparisons with my CRT cast doubt on the observation. I'm not saying others might not notice it. One of the reported benefits of SED at the CES shows was the super-fast response time, allowing for on-screen motion with virtually no motion blur (if the source is appropriately blur-free). Apparently things like a rotating LP label and passing streetcars looked exceptionally sharp on the SED, despite being in motion.
But really getting to the nitty gritty of what is causing blur in an image can be difficult, because often enough images are actually captured with blurring - as is the case with camera movement, or moving objects, in movies and TV.
RicheyPoor
06-13-06, 11:27 PM
[QUOTE=giggle]So it is probably magnified b/c of the size of the television. That's what I was thinking as well, I will see if I notice it on my CRT tonight.[/QUOTE]I never noticed it on my 27" Sony CRT until I saw it on my 50" plasma (where it's far more evident). Now that I know what to look for it's on the Sony too, you just don't notice it as much on the smaller screen.
[QUOTE=RicheyPoor]I never noticed it on my 27" Sony CRT until I saw it on my 50" plasma (where it's far more evident). Now that I know what to look for it's on the Sony too, you just don't notice it as much on the smaller screen.[/QUOTE]
This is what I think now too. That I didn't notice it on the smaller screen; that the areas of blur are magnified on the plasma because the screen is larger and the areas are better defined in general.
Toshbygosh
06-18-06, 10:36 AM
It's the source imo: especially 13HD, which is unwatchable at times. Have you noticed that the problem is never there on INHD or INHD2? I've noticed it on HBOHD, CinemaxHD, etc. - programming shot in film is a potential problem. Programming shot in HDvideo does not present the problem (Letterman, The Tonight Show, ESPN Baseball Tonight, etc.)
I've noticed this unpleasant motion blur "effect" too - mostly on 50in Plasmas. I own a Panny 42HD8UK, and have never seen it on that set. (perhaps my dtvr provides an adequate signal, since its not split like in the store)
However, I have noticed it on every Panny consumer 50", since the 50/500's. On the 50/500's I was able to eliminate it in the store by scaling back various picture settings. I've not been able to eliminate it on the 60/600's. I have not noticed it on Pioneer 5060/1130's or the latest Fujitsu 50, that were displaying the same content as the Panny's. This makes me think its it may be a combination of screen size and processing. (Or, it could be that I just missed it on those screens, while i was looking at it on the Pannys)
This blur effect, and all of the mosquito noise that I've seen on the 50's has held me back from purchasing a 9th generation Panny, despite the fact that generally I like the look of the Panny picture more than the Pioneer look (Just a personal preference).
Has any one seen this effect/defect on the large projection tv's, or on projectors? Have they seen it in store on a model, but not at home on that model? If they had, it would make me more comfortable that this is purely a source issue...and probably get me off the dime on 50" plasma purchase. (probably Panny 8UK/NEC/5070....the Elite and Fujitsu are a bit more that I'd like to spend)...thanks for your comments.
Toshbygosh
06-20-06, 09:52 PM
If it was a combination of screen size and processing, wouldn't you see it on every channel? For instance, INHD & INHD2 do not display this problem. As they say (whoever "they" are) crap in - crap out. The screen size may come into play in that the larger the screen, the more noticeable the problem.
stud_41
10-04-06, 10:16 PM
I have a LG 42" model RU-42PX10 and I have a big problem when I play my xbox 360. When I try and play it seems like it is lagging, this is with any game. Its hard to explain...a example is when I try and play Halo 2. When I try and move it lags or judders, its almost like its retarted. This is really frustrating and I was wondering if there is any way I can fix this? I dont understand why this would happen? I'm to the point that I just want to throw the damn thing out the window. But before I do that I just wanted to know if anyone could help me out??? PLEASE
[QUOTE=stud_41]I have a LG 42" model RU-42PX10 and I have a big problem when I play my xbox 360. When I try and play it seems like it is lagging, this is with any game. Its hard to explain...a example is when I try and play Halo 2. When I try and move it lags or judders, its almost like its retarted. This is really frustrating and I was wondering if there is any way I can fix this? I dont understand why this would happen? I'm to the point that I just want to throw the damn thing out the window. But before I do that I just wanted to know if anyone could help me out??? PLEASE [/QUOTE]
check to make sure you dont have no noise reduction settings enabled. I dont know why some manufacturers include features like this, as it makes them worse.
conan48
10-04-06, 10:44 PM
Nothing is gonna help the motion judder in your games. Thats the reason I sold my panny plasma and went with a Sharp LCD. I am very sensitive to motion problems and the Sharp is alot better for gaming then my Panny was. There is very little motion blur as the response time on the Sharp is 6ms. The judder is much less noticable then my plasma was and the LCD gives you a much sharper picture for gaming. However, the Plasma does a better job with movies and TV.
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