1080P Plasmas - When commonly available?

[RacerChris]

I suppose that the defacto standard will eventually change from 720p Plasmas to 1080p. Anyone know the status of this transformation? Any guess on when this may happen?

[RacerChris]

Anyone know the relative power requirements of the various types of monitors? Does Plasma require alot more than DLP? How does a 50"Plasma's energy use compare to say a frig?

[billybob_jcv]

"Commonly available"? That could spawn a semantics debate. My uneducated guess is maybe by the end of '07, but probably not until the '08 models. That's based on the fact that's mid '06 now, and we haven't seen the *first* 1920x1080 plasma at the stores in the USA yet. The first few models will be expensive toys for the early adopter crowd - I don't consider anything about a $10K display as "common", so even if I can walk into any store and order one of those in Q1'07, I still wouldn't say they were "commonly available"... ;)

[dirtydan]

[QUOTE=RacerChris]Anyone know the relative power requirements of the various types of monitors? Does Plasma require alot more than DLP? How does a 50"Plasma's energy use compare to say a frig?[/QUOTE]
I have a 42" Plasma and I used a "Kill A Watt" meter on it the wattage draw went from 150w to as high as 265, the rating on the panel is 350w, I would guess my avg. is about 190w, don't know how that would compare to a frig, but I do believe that a DLP as well as LCD draw a constant wattage, with plasma wattage draw varys with the brightness of the content being shown.

[optivity]

[QUOTE=billybob_jcv]"Commonly available"? That could spawn a semantics debate. My uneducated guess is maybe by the end of '07, but probably not until the '08 models. That's based on the fact that's mid '06 now, and we haven't seen the *first* 1920x1080 plasma at the stores in the USA yet. The first few models will be expensive toys for the early adopter crowd - I don't consider anything about a $10K display as "common", so even if I can walk into any store and order one of those in Q1'07, I still wouldn't say they were "commonly available"... ;)[/QUOTE]Right, Pioneer has released the 50" 1080p PRO-FHD1 (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310069731_290043890,00.html) "monitor" with an MSRP of $10,000 :eek: and it is anticipated that Panasonic will release the 65" TH-65PX600 (http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/Panasonic_TH_65PX600U/4505-6482_16-31639089-2.html?tag=nav) TV, also MSRP priced at ~$10,000 :eek: this fall. 1080p PDPs may not become "commonly available" or be reasonably priced until 2009.

[cajieboy]

[QUOTE=RacerChris]I suppose that the defacto standard will eventually change from 720p Plasmas to 1080p. Anyone know the status of this transformation? Any guess on when this may happen?[/QUOTE]

Last CES in Las Vegas had all the upcoming 1080p displays, and I can easily guess that the next CES in 2007 will have nothing BUT 1080p displays. This is the future for displays, and it does not take rocket science to figure it out...just a normal progression of the video tech that has taken years to develop. At this time frame, we are at the very early stages of this progression, and if you want it be prepared to pay. It's the price we all pay to be "early adopters". You're right, this will be the "standard" in the next few years, and my guess is that this standard will be around for at least the next decade, so you would be "future proofing" if you purchased 1080p now. You will need to wait a few months for the first 1080p Plasma models to roll out, but after that the flood gates will open up in 2007 w/many models & choices. BTW, think "BIG SCREEN" for 1080p and you'll be a happy camper!:D

[tangfoot]

[QUOTE=cajieboy]so you would be "future proofing" if you purchased 1080p now.[/QUOTE]

Others might replace "future proofing" with "wasting your money".

[cajieboy]

[QUOTE=tangfoot]Others might replace "future proofing" with "wasting your money".[/QUOTE]

Then "others" might not not wish to post on a site that is for "A/V Enthusiasts", whereby "others" spend money to achieve optimum audio/video quality rather than what's the cheapest thing I can buy to feast my eyeballs.

[optivity]

[QUOTE=cajieboy]this will be the "standard" in the next few years, and my guess is that this standard will be around for at least the next decade, so you would be "future proofing" if you purchased 1080p now...[/QUOTE]If one buys a Pioneer PRO-FHD1 now, they will be married to their Cable/Satellite/FiOS providers STB for "life!" :eek: What kind of "future" is that? :rolleyes:

[optivity]

[QUOTE=cajieboy]Then "others" might not not wish to post on a site that is for "A/V Enthusiasts", whereby "others" spend money to achieve optimum audio/video quality rather than what's the cheapest thing I can buy to feast my eyeballs.[/QUOTE]Again... that would be your content provider's STB... some A/V enthusiast... ;)

[cajieboy]

[QUOTE=optivity]If one buys a Pioneer PRO-FHD1 now, they will be married to their Cable/Satellite/FiOS providers STB for "life!" :eek: What kind of "future" is that? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

I know it sucks, but we have to play the cards that are dealt...otherwise, we don't play at all...it's the way of the world as we know it. My best hope is for satellite to mature & be a refuge for HD Purists! Any suggestions or remedies or solutions are welcomed.

[tangfoot]

[QUOTE=cajieboy]Then "others" might not not wish to post on a site that is for "A/V Enthusiasts", whereby "others" spend money to achieve optimum audio/video quality rather than what's the cheapest thing I can buy to feast my eyeballs.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, because the ONLY people who frequent AVS are elitists who have 10k to throw around.

Get real here. This is a site about people who love AV, not necessarily those who have unlimited funds to WASTE on frivolous purchases.

If you think otherwise, take a look around and see what kinds of questions are being asked. I see more "what can I get for 2-3k?" than "money is no object, what's the Best?".

If you want to create your own AV$forum, feel free. But don't slander those who think that price is important.

[mconstant]

[QUOTE=tangfoot]Others might replace "future proofing" with "wasting your money".[/QUOTE]

Exactly. I would agree with you 99.9%. When purchasing a set, making sure it is 1080p should be one of the last things that you should look at. It shouldn't be the deciding factor. Other things such as Contrast and Black Levels should weigh more heavily on your purchase. And in the world of electronics the phrase future proofing cannot be used. There is a difference between an a person who is an AV Enthusiast and somebody who will keep spending money because he needs the latest technology.

[optivity]

[QUOTE=cajieboy]I know it sucks, but we have to play the cards that are dealt...otherwise, we don't play at all...it's the way of the world as we know it. My best hope is for satellite to mature & be a refuge for HD Purists! Any suggestions or remedies or solutions are welcomed.[/QUOTE]Hopefully for those who purchase now... some sort of high quality HD tuner or TiVo like device can be used to front-end their 1080p PDP monitor later on. Having grown up during the Watergate era, my impression is Bill Gates, Time Warner/Comcast, Panasonic/Pioneer and Hollywood :eek: all conspire to "roll-out" these features/capabilities in dribs & drabs which keep "A/V enthusiasts" coming back again & again.[QUOTE=tangfoot]Yeah, because the ONLY people who frequent AVS are elitists who have 10k to throw around.

Get real here. This is a site about people who love AV, not necessarily those who have unlimited funds to WASTE on frivolous purchases.

If you think otherwise, take a look around and see what kinds of questions are being asked. I see more "what can I get for 2-3k?" than "money is no object, what's the Best?".

If you want to create your own AV$forum, feel free. But don't slander those who think that price is important.[/QUOTE]Thats a wee bit harsh dude... for those who have the money to "WASTE on frivolous purchases" good for them.

[billybob_jcv]

I'm all for the early adopters with deep pockets. If it wasn't for them, the rest of us wouldn't be able to buy the same technology 2 years later for half the price! :)

[Brent Madden]

[QUOTE=tangfoot]Yeah, because the ONLY people who frequent AVS are elitists who have 10k to throw around.

Get real here. This is a site about people who love AV, not necessarily those who have unlimited funds to WASTE on frivolous purchases.

If you think otherwise, take a look around and see what kinds of questions are being asked. I see more "what can I get for 2-3k?" than "money is no object, what's the Best?".

If you want to create your own AV$forum, feel free. But don't slander those who think that price is important.[/QUOTE]



Well said. I'm all for trying to achieve the best A/V quality possible, but sometimes the "elitist" attitude around here is enough to make me want to puke.

[Phantom Gremlin]

[QUOTE=RacerChris]I suppose that the defacto standard will eventually change from 720p Plasmas to 1080p. Anyone know the status of this transformation?[/QUOTE]

Calling the current displays "720p" overstates the situation. Very few of them display exactly 1280 x 720 pixels.

I think if the current displays truly did display 720p unmodified, instead of scaling it into something "sort-of close", there would be less pressing need for 1080p.

[optivity]

[QUOTE=RacerChris]I suppose that the defacto standard will eventually change from 720p Plasmas to 1080p. Anyone know the status of this transformation? Any guess on when this may happen?[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Phantom Gremlin]Calling the current displays "720p" overstates the situation. Very few of them display exactly 1280 x 720 pixels.

I think if the current displays truly did display 720p unmodified, instead of scaling it into something "sort-of close", there would be less pressing need for 1080p.[/QUOTE]My TV fully resolves 720p (1366 * 768 pixels), well sort of. By RacerChris' post... shouldn't we be "rid of" those nasty little EDTVs by now? :D

[Auditor55]

[QUOTE=optivity]Right, Pioneer has released the 50" 1080p PRO-FHD1 (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310069731_290043890,00.html) "monitor" with an MSRP of $10,000 :eek: and it is anticipated that Panasonic will release the 65" TH-65PX600 (http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/Panasonic_TH_65PX600U/4505-6482_16-31639089-2.html?tag=nav) TV, also MSRP priced at ~$10,000 :eek: this fall. 1080p PDPs may not become "commonly available" or be reasonably priced until 2009.[/QUOTE]

If they can justify those prices for plasma TV's, well price should no longer be a reason to delay SED. If plasma marketers still see a market for high priced plasmas in the 50 to 55 inch range, I see no reason why the same market would choose the spend the same amount of money for a superior technology like SED.

[optivity]

If not for the "promise" of vaporware, I mean SED technology and increasing LCD screen sizes I believe PDP makers would be happy to stay confined to their current 480p/720p platforms. Of course by taking the lead in 1080p PDP technology they may eliminate SED from that market too. Just how many $10,000 TVs will "Joe consumer" buy during his lifetime?

Only competition spurs technology.

[tvbug]

[QUOTE=cajieboy]Then "others" might not not wish to post on a site that is for "A/V Enthusiasts", whereby "others" spend money to achieve optimum audio/video quality rather than what's the cheapest thing I can buy to feast my eyeballs.[/QUOTE]

There is a sucker born everyday !


or so they say :D

[caeguy]

I was at Tweeter today and they have the Pioneer in their system. It's set to be in their warehouse in 2 weeks. We'll see.

[orogogus]

[QUOTE=optivity]If one buys a Pioneer PRO-FHD1 now, they will be married to their Cable/Satellite/FiOS providers STB for "life!" :eek: What kind of "future" is that? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

I don't understand this statement? Did I miss something or some implied sarcasm??

[tvbug]

[QUOTE=orogogus]I don't understand this statement? Did I miss something or some implied sarcasm??[/QUOTE]

Yes :D

[optivity]

[QUOTE=orogogus]I don't understand this statement? Did I miss something or some implied sarcasm??[/QUOTE]Not so much sarcasm on my part as just pure amazement that any "A/V enthusiast" who participates in this Forum would even consider spending $10,000 for a monitor that relies on the ATSC tuner of a SA8300.

[Ken Ross]

[QUOTE=tangfoot]Others might replace "future proofing" with "wasting your money".[/QUOTE]

Well we all know there's no such thing as "future-proofing". We'll get our 1080p panels, pay $10,000, and of course they'll have HDMI 1.3. So we'll all be happy....for about 6 months. At about that time we'll start to hear the rumors of HDMI 1.4. Of course there will be HDMI 1.4 peripherals that will do FABULOUS things, but won't be able to do these great things with HDMI 1.3....oh they'll work OK, you just won't get any of the 'new features' with your 1.3 display. And so it goes! :D

[orogogus]

[QUOTE=optivity]Not so much sarcasm on my part as just pure amazement that any "A/V enthusiast" who participates in this Forum would even consider spending $10,000 for a monitor that relies on the ATSC tuner of a SA8300.[/QUOTE]

Ah. Well there is always HD DVD and BD as high(er) quality 1080p source. If I had $10k to blow on a new display there is no way it wouldn't be a 1080p display.

[Artwood]

Next year at this time there will be the next years model--some 1080p and mostly 1366X768.

Anybody have a guess as to what will be sold in 2008? What percentage will be 1080p? Will the summer of 2007 Panasonics be 10th generation and the summer of 2008 Panasonics be the LAST 11th generation of 1366X768?

Something tells me that most of the manufacturers such as Panasonic, Fujitsu, Pioneer, NEC, and Samsung will still sell maybe 1 budget 1366X768 plasma in their lines in 2009 but everything else will be 1080p.

I really believe in 2010 that only 1080p will remain from Pioneer and Panasonic. Anyone agree or disagree?

[billybob_jcv]

Well, look at it this way - Panny is still selling ED panels today, years after 1365x768 panels came to market. IMHO they will evaluate several factors to decide when to EOL a product:

Production cost - they can't just keep lowering the prices of the panels, even if they are "old" technology there is still a cost that needs to be covered. The computer market is the king of this - they just lop off the bottom models on a regular basis as the prices drop.

Manufacturing line usage - if they can use the line for a product that generates a higher margin, it makes sense to kill the old product. OTOH, as long as the line is available, and the margin is still positive, it may make sense to keep it running.

Supportability - continuing to sell a product means you have to continue to provide warranty support and spares. If they kill the product, the clock starts on how long they have to continue to support it.

Distribution & Supply Chain - the more models they keep in the line, the more product must be in the supply chain and carried by the distributors and dealers. Inventory is a liability on the balance sheet.

I'm sure there are other factors...

[optivity]

[QUOTE=orogogus]Ah. Well there is always HD DVD and BD as high(er) quality 1080p source. If I had $10k to blow on a new display there is no way it wouldn't be a 1080p display.[/QUOTE]I own a 720p PDP so I won't buy another FP until a 1080p display comes along which meets my needs that I can afford. If you have the money to buy one now... great, but spending $10,000 for a "monitor" to watch a "handful" of 1080p DVDs seems like a rather "foolhardy" expenditure to me.

[cajieboy]

[QUOTE=tvbug]There is a sucker born everyday !


or so they say :D[/QUOTE]

Well, I guess you're saying that everyone in the US that bought their 50" Plasma TV's three years ago are stupid & suckers for spending so much money on a display. If it weren't for early adopters you would not be enjoying the much lower costs of Plasma TV's today. You & Tangfoot should kiss your lucky stars that you are now able to buy at low prices built on the backs of Early Adopters of this video tech, rather than spit out envious name calling.

BTW: Why are you on a 1080p display thread that you have no interest in purchasing, but post only to bash the 1080p video tech & those people that support it? Sounds like a troll to me.

[patrickthickey]

I am an early adopter. My first generation 50" Fujitsu works fine, and I could purchase 3 new 50" plasma for what I paid in 2001 for this one unit. I have no regrets whatsoever as we have enjoyed it for over 5 years.

Is anyone who has been reasonably successful in life to be denigrated for having done so? I don't see the point of that perspective, unless you are clamoring for some form of egalitarian share the wealth society.

Unless, that is, we allow someone truly under privileged to point at you, the ~3 thousand dollar spender, as utterly and completely lacking in values.

regards,

patrick

[optivity]

Not that anyone here really "cares" who buys what or when... :rolleyes: I still have difficulties coming to terms with the self professed "A/V enthusiasts" (a.k.a. early adopters) who are willing to spend $10,000 for a "monitor" to hook up to a 3-year-old (which by now is an antique :D ) SA8300. If these "early adopters" were to demand more, which as a consumer is our right to do, I could somehow rationalize this expenditure.

Cable, CE Firms Start New Spat Over CableCARD Failures (http://www.cabledigitalnews.com/weekly_analysis/07062006_01.html)

[blitz6speed]

[QUOTE=cajieboy]Well, I guess you're saying that everyone in the US that bought their 50" Plasma TV's three years ago are stupid & suckers for spending so much money on a display. If it weren't for early adopters you would not be enjoying the much lower costs of Plasma TV's today. You & Tangfoot should kiss your lucky stars that you are now able to buy at low prices built on the backs of Early Adopters of this video tech, rather than spit out envious name calling.

BTW: Why are you on a 1080p display thread that you have no interest in purchasing, but post only to bash the 1080p video tech & those people that support it? Sounds like a troll to me.[/QUOTE]

AVS has dropped in class significantly in the past year. Im sure the drop in bigger display prices and the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD war is bringing most of the uglyness here. I acknowledge early adapoters in a big way, without them, we wouldnt be where we are today in terms of technology at such great pricing. Anyone who tells you how to spend your money, tell them to F off.

[optivity]

[QUOTE=blitz6speed]AVS has dropped in class significantly in the past year. Im sure the drop in bigger display prices and the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD war is bringing most of the uglyness here. I acknowledge early adapoters in a big way, without them, we wouldnt be where we are today in terms of technology at such great pricing. Anyone who tells you how to spend your money, [color=red]tell them to F off[/color].[/QUOTE]Classy :D

[tangfoot]

[QUOTE=blitz6speed]AVS has dropped in class significantly in the past year. Im sure the drop in bigger display prices and the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD war is bringing most of the uglyness here. I acknowledge early adapoters in a big way, without them, we wouldnt be where we are today in terms of technology at such great pricing. Anyone who tells you how to spend your money, tell them to F off.[/QUOTE]

"dropped in class significantly"?
You will see this "drop" continue and exacerbate as HD becomes more mainstream and Plasma/LCD/SEP/whatever becomes cheaper and more pervasive to the masses.

Maybe the AV$forum idea wasn't so bad at all...

[zaracsan]

[QUOTE=optivity]I still have difficulties coming to terms with the self professed "A/V enthusiasts" (a.k.a. early adopters) who are willing to spend $10,000 for a "monitor" to hook up to a 3-year-old SA8300. If these "early adopters" were to demand more, which as a consumer is our right to do, I could somehow rationalize this expenditure.[/QUOTE]

I see your rabid obsession with the cableCARD continues to pollute nearly every thread you participate in. Why do you continue to believe that every thread started exists only to provide you with an opportunity to get back on your little soapbox and save the world from the evil cable providers?!?! :rolleyes: You are starting to sound more like a paid lobbyist than a participating member. You are certainly entitled to your opinion; but for gawds sake, please stop hijacking threads with the never ending cableCARD crusade!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Getting back on topic...

Optivity's post ignores the fact that some people are more interested in things like HD movies (BluRay or HD-DVD) and full HD gaming; than they are in watching SD sources, or anything else delivered via the cable providers. While HD disk titles do not currently enjoy the sort of distribution that DVDs do, it is only a matter of time before they become more commonly available.

Some folks are making an investment in a display they feel they can live with for more than just a few years. Having a display that can input 1080p and display it natively will allow consumers to stave off obsolescence to a greater degree than less capable displays can. As 1080p is the maximum resolution current HD standards allow for, it is the object of desire for a fair number of people. Panels capable of inputting and displaying 1080p natively will require comparatively minimal processing from 1080p sources. The less processing required, the fewer chances there are of introducing processing related problems. Such advantages are compelling for some consumers.

The money argument is silly. Those that can afford it, most certainly will own it. If you are not at the point in your life where you have enough discretionary income to afford such indulgences (this is a want -- not a need), then begrudging those that can, only serves to make your envy all the more obvious. The new Panny 65 1080p already has a street price (if pre-order pricing is any indicator) some 2k below the above mentioned 10k price. While the new Pio 50" 1080p looks to be 2k more, for 15" less screen size than the Panny; rest assured, there will be buyers for their display too.

While this sort of expenditure may seem like big money to some, it is not all that far from what was paid for better 50" displays only a short time ago, and 42" panels not so many years back. The argument for 1080p big screens will become stronger for the average consumer with each ratcheting down of prices. When we get to 6k, another group of potential buyers will deem it as affordable; and so on, as the prices go lower. That is to be expected with most consumer products. What is harder to gauge here, is how much more consumers are willing to spend on average for a display. If the consumer spending floor rises as the cost ceiling is lowered; then 1080p sets will become the norm sooner, rather than later in the upgrade/replacement cycle.

[optivity]

[QUOTE=zaracsan]I see your rabid obsession with the cableCARD continues to pollute nearly every thread you participate in. Why do you continue to believe that every thread started exists only to provide you with an opportunity to get back on your little soapbox and save the world from the evil cable providers?!?! :rolleyes: You are starting to sound more like a paid lobbyist than a participating member. You are certainly entitled to your opinion; but for gawds sake, please stop hijacking threads with the never ending cableCARD crusade!![/quote]Personal attacks aside dude... if you don't like the content of my post(s) why not just ingore them... or can only topics that interest you be discussed in this Forum?[QUOTE=zaracsan]Optivity's post ignores the fact that some people are more interested in things like HD movies (BluRay or HD-DVD) and full HD gaming; than they are in watching SD sources, or anything else delivered via the cable providers. While HD disk titles do not currently enjoy the sort of distribution that DVDs do, it is only a matter of time before they become more commonly available.[/QUOTE]We'll all own 1080p displays... someday. If you want to spend 10 grand on a TV to watch a handful of DVDs (50 First Dates is available :rolleyes: ) and play a few games (with your 16-year-old friends) be my guest. :) Adults prefer to spread their money around more effectively and actually save some of it too! ;)

[conan48]

If people got the money to spend 10, 000 on a TV then good for them. I don't and many others don't either, and that's too bad for us. There's no point in being jealous. If I had alot of money then I would also be an early adopter and wouldn't hesitate to spend 10, 000 on a quality 1080p plasma. This bickering is so pointless. I thought most of the people who post on this forum were adults, but I guess I'm wrong.

[fafner]

[QUOTE=optivity]We'll all own 1080p displays... someday. [/QUOTE]

You can own one now for a bargain basement price.....have any of you interested in 1080p checked out the 42" and 47" Westinghouse LCD's? Check the threads on here....no reason to wait....get an outstanding 1080p screen for anywhere between $1,700 and $2,499.

Why wait?

[DFul4d]

This is one of the lamest threads I have ever read. An interesting question was asked, followed by pointless bickering and name calling. Come on AVS Forum, you are better than that.

Back on topic. I would guess three model years. Upcoming models will be pricey, followed by a price premium of $1000 or so over a 720 model in two years, then being priced similiar to today's levels in 3 years.

[itigap]

[QUOTE=Artwood]Next year at this time there will be the next years model--some 1080p and mostly 1366X768.

Anybody have a guess as to what will be sold in 2008? What percentage will be 1080p? Will the summer of 2007 Panasonics be 10th generation and the summer of 2008 Panasonics be the LAST 11th generation of 1366X768?

Something tells me that most of the manufacturers such as Panasonic, Fujitsu, Pioneer, NEC, and Samsung will still sell maybe 1 budget 1366X768 plasma in their lines in 2009 but everything else will be 1080p.

I really believe in 2010 that only 1080p will remain from Pioneer and Panasonic. Anyone agree or disagree?[/QUOTE]

I think you nailed this one. A breath of rationality for this discussion.

[optivity]

[QUOTE=DFul4d]This is one of the lamest threads I have ever read. An interesting question was asked, followed by pointless bickering and name calling. Come on AVS Forum, you are better than that.

Back on topic. I would guess three model years. Upcoming models will be pricey, followed by a price premium of $1000 or so over a 720 model in two years, then being priced similiar to today's levels in 3 years.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=RacerChris]I suppose that the defacto standard will eventually change from 720p Plasmas to 1080p. Anyone know the status of this transformation? Any guess on when this may happen?[/QUOTE]Carnac the Magnificent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnac_the_Magnificent) predicts: not before 2009 - 2010. ;)

[size=1]with no mention of the "dreaded" CableCARD word...[/size]

[size=1]oops... I said it again...[/size]

[longshot]

I came here to read about 1080PDP's and it's like I'm back in the BD vs HD DVD threads with all the name calling and such. Sheesh.

[markrubin]

thread closed