OT--Eight Men Taken Off My Flight

[Creech]

Eight Men (http://imagespace.blogspot.com/2006/10/men-escorted-off-my-flight.html) were taken off my plane last night. I posted two videos last last--one from Baltimore to Chicago (uneventful) and one from Chicago to Denver (quite eventful).

Our flight left about two hours late. It was a pretty odd experience.

Anyway, its way off topic (except that I managed to capture some video with my cell phone) but I thought of interest.

[whirly]

Very KEWL stuff.

Great first hand reporting.

[gweempose]

You may very well have witnessed a foiled terrorist plot. Pretty scary stuff if you ask me.

[Creech]

[QUOTE=gweempose]You may very well have witnessed a foiled terrorist plot. Pretty scary stuff if you ask me.[/QUOTE]

It was pretty unnerving, especially after they said they had all 7 suspicious people, door was closed, and then they came back for an eighth. This may sound a little strange, but I was glad I had the where-with-all to pull out my cell phone and catch some video.

[icecow]

I'm glad you did too.


I must admit when I first saw this I was a bit terrified since it involved someone i actually knew. Knowing nothing since no information is availible to me it seemed reasonable to be on the safe side.

But a few hours later I felt like I was dupped, and dupped myself. Knowing nothing since no information is availible to me it started to seem more likely that the stewardess who observed the 'odd' behaviour was doing what she precieved what she was supposed to do. Perhaps her IQ was less than 100 (half of peoples are by definition) and that is enough to bring credence to these things. I'm not sure what kinda terrorist plot includes many middle easterners passing ipods and cell phones around in a airliner, but that is the stated premise. Maybe they were bumbling their plans badly! The stewardess was well trained: she knew not to mention that they smelled like garlic.

These are the only two possible opinons I can form because with my security clearence (a guy with a television) the only access I have is hearing daily heroic Bush tell me how scared I should be with no additional information. Does anyone around here have a comprehensive understanding of the top 30 twarted or terrorist-suspected activities since 911? I have no clue, wish i did so I could justify my terror.


broadcasting needs to be decentralized. good job creech

[Creech]

I don't expect we will hear ANYTHING from the media. In a few months the Bush government will quote some statistics about how many plots have been thwarted without any kind of indication of where and when. This may be part of that report.

I don't know if this was really anything. I do know that whatever happened was enough to do the following.

1) Stop a plane for two hours
2) Removal of 8 men

Could be that they were interested in each other's music. I don't know. I am glad that the young flight attendent who brought it to the attention of the authorities did what needed to be done.

Bottom line, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

And Cow, thanks for thinking kindly of what I did. It seemed right.

You knew someone on the flight?

[icecow]

Well I meant you. I don't know you in person, but it's totally different then a bunch of strangers you see on the news who you've never communicated with.

And I just toggled again. When you said 'better safe then sorry' I thought 'yeah, I guess so'. But my judgement is soo stretched that I can't even determine if 'arabs passing around ipods and acting "strangely"' with no other information is sane creteria to conclude 'better safe than sorry'.

sorry to rant, but I do find this all disconcerting, and I do believe decentralized broadcasting is increasingly important for government to work--government as Madison saw it. He believed informed citizens was crucial to a successful government (so it was explained to me, I haven't read up on him, too much to read)

[Paul Bruneau]

[QUOTE=gweempose]You may very well have witnessed a foiled terrorist plot. Pretty scary stuff if you ask me.[/QUOTE]

You may very well have witnessed an unreasonable search and seizure. Pretty scarey stuff if you ask me.

[icecow]

Isn't it thanksgiving in canada?

[Ed Rempalski]

Well Paul,

I suppose you can pretend that everyone is inocent until one of them manages to kill you at some point, for no particular reason 'cept that you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I lived in the middle east for 3 1/2 years, can't say I EVER saw 8 arab "strangers" get on a plane and start sharing their gear, and I flew all over there.

We live in a different time, when you have winged metal tubes full of hundreds of inocent people flying around I think it's fair to err on the "unreasonable" side.

Thanks for sharing Creech.

[droht]

I lived in the middle east for 3 1/2 years, can't say I EVER saw 8 arab "strangers" get on a plane and start sharing their gear, and I flew all over there. Well hell, why didn't you say so in the first place? Let's forget any sort of trial or evidence and just string these boys up.

[milky way]

We live in a different time, and we spent how much over Irag now, not on our own security? Bush obivously wants to scare us every day, instead of fixing potential security holes. Go figure.

[jelliott25]

Yeah, there's clearly nothing to worry about. Certainly no reason to be rude.

* 1993 (Feb.): Bombing of World Trade Center (WTC); 6 killed.
* 1993 (Oct.): Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.
* 1996 (June): Truck bombing at Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killed 19 Americans.
* 1998 (Aug.): Bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; 224 killed, including 12 Americans.
* 1999 (Dec.): Plot to bomb millennium celebrations in Seattle foiled when customs agents arrest an Algerian smuggling explosives into the U.S.
* 2000 (Oct.): Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S. sailors killed.
* 2001 (Sept.): Destruction of WTC; attack on Pentagon. Total dead 2,992.
* 2001 (Dec.): Man tried to denote shoe bomb on flight from Paris to Miami.
* 2002 (April): Explosion at historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, including 11 German tourists.
* 2002 (May): Car exploded outside hotel in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 14, including 11 French citizens.
* 2002 (June): Bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.
* 2002 (Oct.): Boat crashed into oil tanker off Yemen coast, killing 1.
* 2002 (Oct.): Nightclub bombings in Bali, Indonesia, killed 202, mostly Australian citizens.
* 2002 (Nov.): Suicide attack on a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killed 16.
* 2003 (May): Suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
* 2003 (May): 4 bombs killed 33 people targeting Jewish, Spanish, and Belgian sites in Casablanca, Morocco.
* 2003 (Aug.): Suicide car-bomb killed 12, injured 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.
* 2003 (Nov.): Explosions rocked a Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, housing compound, killing 17.
* 2003 (Nov.): Suicide car-bombers simultaneously attacked 2 synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 25 and injuring hundreds.
* 2003 (Nov.): Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 26.
* 2004 (March): 10 bombs on 4 trains exploded almost simultaneously during the morning rush hour in Madrid, Spain, killing 191 and injuring more than 1,500.
* 2004 (May): Terrorists attacked Saudi oil company offices in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, killing 22.
* 2004 (June): Terrorists kidnapped and executed American Paul Johnson, Jr., in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
* 2004 (Sept.): Car bomb outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia, killed 9.
* 2004 (Dec.): Terrorists entered the U.S. Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 9 (including 4 attackers).
* 2005 (July): Bombs exploded on 3 trains and a bus in London, England, killing 52.
* 2005 (Oct.): 22 killed by 3 suicide bombs in Bali, Indonesia.
* 2005 (Nov.): 57 killed at 3 American hotels in Amman, Jordan.
* 2006 (Aug.): More than 25 arrested in plot to blow up jetliners between London and U.S.

[droht]

jelliott25, you forgot a pretty big one. April 19, 1995. 168 people killed (19 of which were children) and over 800 injured when a couple of good old boys blew up the Federal building in Oklahoma City. I guess Ryder should have stopped renting trucks to white guys, or at least started hassling them. Right?

[Creech]

[QUOTE=icecow]Isn't it thanksgiving in canada?[/QUOTE]

It is indeed.

Canadian Thanksgiving (http://www.twilightbridge.com/hobbies/festivals/thanksgiving/canada/)

[Ed Rempalski]

Sheese, Are you kidding? Who said string 'em up?? Just detain and check a little more, what's the problem there?

You haven't had a machine gun shoved in you face, I have, it's not fun when the person at the other end doesn't like your kind. That's what happens outside the US, far cry from a second or third pass security screen.

I carry lots of portable gadgets and fully expect to get checked possibly more than others. I'm suprised that even Creech wasn't looked over with his video phone antics as you really aren't supposed to video on planes.

I went freely to the middle east at age 25 with a very innocent and open mind, the opinions I have now were formed there, well before 911. There was no free press, there was a distinct anti-west mantra flowing in their media and schools as I worked with their students. I was not supprised one whitt by 911 and the aftermath that continues.

So no, I don't think the US is even remotely becoming a police state, and yes I pray that inocent people like you never pay the ultimate price for doing nothing more than riding on a plane/train/or bus on the wrong day, because everyone pretends that there is no evil in the world and force their eyes closed as justice is blind after all and "Akmud" deserves just as much freedom from scrutiny as "Mertle".

I say, hmmmm not so much...


Oh, and Droyt, regarding the OK Bombers, no on ever said that wacko's don't come in all flavors, don't forget my fav Ted K and his cozy cabin of joy, but the ratios seem to favor one group over another, don't ya think??

[antnjen]

[QUOTE=droht]jelliott25, you forgot a pretty big one. April 19, 1995. 168 people killed (19 of which were children) and over 800 injured when a couple of good old boys blew up the Federal building in Oklahoma City. I guess Ryder should have stopped renting trucks to white guys, or at least started hassling them. Right?[/QUOTE]

Right. If a couple of "good old boys" are observed loading their newly rented Ryder with large barrels of bomb ingredients, I think it's OK to hassle them.

FYI, I travel a lot. I am constantly "hassled" by TSA because, back in 2003, my sneakers tested positive for explosives at the airport in Denver. I had walked across my freshly fertilized lawn a couple of days before my flight, and the fertilizer caused the positive test result. And now I am on "the list".

I have never been a terrorist, and I never will be. However, I am perfectly happy to be hassled because there was an event (my sneakers testing positive) that caused legitimate concern. And, yes, "strange behavior" is a perfectly acceptable cause for concern. Try taking a flight out of Tel Aviv. Their security is trained to detect "strange behavior" through a rigorous interview process. And their profiling program is enough to make the NJ State Police look like a bunch of amateurs.

[droht]

Just detain and check a little more, what's the problem there?
By this do you mean drop them in Gitmo for a couple of years with no due process?

As far as evil goes, yeah, I agree, it exists. I don't necessarily think most of these terrorists are evil however. I look more at the serial killer/rapist/child molester set as "evil". Most of the terrorists are severely misguided, imo, and caught up in some serious religious fervor. But we have a lot of that right here at home as well. We have the poster boy for misguided, and I'm guessing that you helped to elect him Ed. Thanks a bunch.

[antnjen]

[QUOTE=droht]I don't necessarily think most of these terrorists are evil however. [/QUOTE]

Let's get this straight: Every single one of them is evil. They intend to kill people. I don't care what their end goal is, or whether or not their mommy hugged them enough when they were kids.

What part of "evil" don't you understand?

[icecow]

[QUOTE=jelliott25]Yeah, there's clearly nothing to worry about. Certainly no reason to be rude.

* 1993 (Feb.): Bombing of World Trade Center (WTC); 6 killed.
* 1993 (Oct.): Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.
* 1996 (June): Truck bombing at Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killed 19 Americans.
* 1998 (Aug.): Bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; 224 killed, including 12 Americans.
* 1999 (Dec.): Plot to bomb millennium celebrations in Seattle foiled when customs agents arrest an Algerian smuggling explosives into the U.S.
* 2000 (Oct.): Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S. sailors killed.
* 2001 (Sept.): Destruction of WTC; attack on Pentagon. Total dead 2,992.
* 2001 (Dec.): Man tried to denote shoe bomb on flight from Paris to Miami.
* 2002 (April): Explosion at historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, including 11 German tourists.
* 2002 (May): Car exploded outside hotel in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 14, including 11 French citizens.
* 2002 (June): Bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.
* 2002 (Oct.): Boat crashed into oil tanker off Yemen coast, killing 1.
* 2002 (Oct.): Nightclub bombings in Bali, Indonesia, killed 202, mostly Australian citizens.
* 2002 (Nov.): Suicide attack on a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killed 16.
* 2003 (May): Suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
* 2003 (May): 4 bombs killed 33 people targeting Jewish, Spanish, and Belgian sites in Casablanca, Morocco.
* 2003 (Aug.): Suicide car-bomb killed 12, injured 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.
* 2003 (Nov.): Explosions rocked a Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, housing compound, killing 17.
* 2003 (Nov.): Suicide car-bombers simultaneously attacked 2 synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 25 and injuring hundreds.
* 2003 (Nov.): Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 26.
* 2004 (March): 10 bombs on 4 trains exploded almost simultaneously during the morning rush hour in Madrid, Spain, killing 191 and injuring more than 1,500.
* 2004 (May): Terrorists attacked Saudi oil company offices in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, killing 22.
* 2004 (June): Terrorists kidnapped and executed American Paul Johnson, Jr., in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
* 2004 (Sept.): Car bomb outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia, killed 9.
* 2004 (Dec.): Terrorists entered the U.S. Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 9 (including 4 attackers).
* 2005 (July): Bombs exploded on 3 trains and a bus in London, England, killing 52.
* 2005 (Oct.): 22 killed by 3 suicide bombs in Bali, Indonesia.
* 2005 (Nov.): 57 killed at 3 American hotels in Amman, Jordan.
* 2006 (Aug.): More than 25 arrested in plot to blow up jetliners between London and U.S.[/QUOTE]

wow, they are happening all over the world. What's the death toll over that 13 years on earth? Counting the WTC/Pentigon (3,000) about 4,000. 45,000 americans die each year from transportation accidents each. More die from cellphone accidents. In african 5,000 children under the age of 5 die each day from comtaminated water.

Why don't you just show me screen shots from the movie 'Mars Attack'

46,500 american accidentally drown in the same 13 year period. Maybe we should all start wearing life jackets at all times and double up airport security. Meanwhile a skinhead will convert to muslim and fire a machinegun across a freeway divider at rush hour for 20 min and kill another 5-6000. Oh my god now I'm on the list.

Even people that are decent at math seem to have no sense of magnitude. It routinely leaves me speechless.


Let's just all be thankful it's thanksgiving in canada.

[Ed Rempalski]

No Droht, I didn't vote for him, I'm actually a bleeding liberal and don't like what's been going on one bit. I feel pretty much hostage as my energy bills are now tripple from 2 years ago.

Oh yeah, second airport screen = gitmo The logic is crystal.

You sound balanced and well grounded my friend ;)

Cow, you are right on, the magnitude's don't match up to the news fear frenzy that is foisted on us. I believe I heard the 65,000 get e-coli poisoning each year, but we freak when some spinach is contaminated and 100 get sick. Dr Dean says, just cook it!

This does seem to be a US problem, fear mongering in the media seems the only way for the freelancers to get printed.

I do wish there were some way to bring common sense back to the planet.

But when they pulled the plug on Replay, I don't see much hope.

[adone36]

I find the logic of the left absolutely hysterical.

We have to use a screening process that basically says "check every 7th guy" instead of say checking somebody with a turban with no luggage who is sweating a lot.

While the logic of the left is that just being a Muslim or whatever, "does not make you a terrorist", it is not the fault of the REST OF US that being one makes the latter 1000 times more likely.

As to the "US problem" that seems to be true, since we operate in the pc world. The rest of the planet goes by checking people more likely to be suspect. It's called "profiling".

While your political beliefs may be salved and comforted by watching the airport people frisking the Swedish Bikini Team while members of some radical US Imam's congregation are allowed to board freely, I'll take another flight.

[Ed Rempalski]

Nice visual :)

[adone36]

My friend was just frisked, questioned, take your shoes off, etc. on a flight from LA. She's a 60yr old, blonde, Pulitzer Prize nominee from LA. I think the computer said it was her "turn".

Could you imagine El Al doing this nonsense?? It's sad that flying United or whatever is probably way more dangerous than hopping an El Al plight.

[Bigjohns]

Hey Cow... the funny thing about the statistics you compare...

Nobody intentionally went out to KILL those "accident victims", or use their deaths to inflict terror on others.

[sixt7gt350]

Paul, droht, and anyone else whose knees flip back and a little left at the slightest provocation:

Have you done much traveling in foreign countries? Do you realize how lax our security procedures are compared to other places? When I was in Japan (3x) on extended trips, they knew exactly where I was and what I was doing. (It's kind of hard not to stand out at 6'4", blue eyes, and blonde hair, but that's beside the point.) You expect us to treat visitors to this country as if they are citizens and entitled to the same rights as us. They aren't and they're not.
Why is it so many have blinded themselves to the reality of the situation, simply because of their hatred of Bush? If that wasn't the case, then why is his name always brought up? He didn't create 9/11. He was the hapless dolt "lucky" enough to be in office when the exact same kooks that failed twice under the previous president finally found a way that would work. Oh, wait. That's right. It was Bush's fault. He cooked the whole thing up as a way to take away our civil liberties and enrich all his oil buddies. TAKE OFF YOUR TINFOIL HATS!!! It started long before 1993, even. It's as simple as this: The Muslims hate the Jews. We like and support Israel. The Muslims, therefore, hate us and our presence in "their" part of world. The Imams hate our culture and its permissive, sexual, provocative bent. (I kind of agree with them on this, but not to the point where I feel the need to start blowing people up to express my displeasure.)

Here's my plan for mass transportation security:
US citizens: Random screenings
Non-citizens: Well, let's start with focus on the groups/countries that hate us and move on from there.

[SpaceCadet]

jelliot25, there's far more terrorism around the world than your list, including more directed at Americans. There was the Achille Lauro, there were many plane hijackings where people were killed, the bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon, the Beslan school seige, and the other seige in Russia (can't think of the name, right off).

Ramzi Yousef, who bombed the World Trade Center the first time, also bombed a Philippine (if I recall correctly) jetliner using liquid explosives around that time. A person was killed, some were wounded, and the only reason that the plane wasn't blown out of the sky over the ocean was that a slightly different plane model was used on that particular flight, and the seat where the bomb was placed was slightly forward of the center fuel tank rather than directly over it, as it would normally have been. It's only taken the NTSB and FAA circa 13 years to get around to checking for liquid explosives.

Yes, terrorism isn't limited to foreign or religious extremists. The White House isn't protected by anti-aircraft missiles because of Islamic extremists, but because of an American. The first attempt to use a commercial jetliner as a missile/bomb was in the 1970's, during the Nixon administration. It was extremely fortunate that the anti-Nixon psycho was gunned down (by a policeman, if I recall) through the window of the jetliner he was hijacking, after killing a guard. Terrorists, being ignorant scum, didn't even know about this incident, nor did they read fictional accounts of using commercial jets as missiles. One of the terrorists behind the 9/11 attacks said that he got the idea from the Egyptian pilot who committed murder-suicide by crashing a jetliner full of passengers into the ocean (he was a messed-up pervert who had been caught repeatedly, and had just been told that he would no longer be allowed to fly to the U.S.).

Evil is a matter of definition, but in my opinion, terrorists are more evil than misguided. Islamic extremists claim to be acting out of religious fervor, but if you examine their lives you will find that most of them, like most people who claim to be religious, don't come even remotely close to practicing what they preach (including Bin Laden and the 9/11 hijackers). Most of them are just murderers, and Bin Laden is far more power-hungry than religious.

Cow, you're certainly right that people do an incredibly bad job of risk assessment and risk management. Look at how many people die from the flu each year. Death is always a tragedy for the friends and relatives of the victims. I always find it annoying when society tries to rank people in death. Why is it that the families of terrorist victims deserve compensation, when the families of those killed in vehicle crashes don't? Why is the murder of a young, photogenic, caucasian female more important than the murder of an elderly, non-photogenic, minority male? Yes, the 9/11 attacks involved several planes and buildings, but primarily it was two large, mostly empty buildings that collapsed. Like all deaths, it was a tragedy for the victims, their families, friends, and co-workers. But it makes you wonder how Americans (I should probably say "U.S. citizens", I always thought that the term "Americans" to mean U.S. citizens only, was insulting to the residents of all of the other countries in the Americas) would handle a real war on U.S. soil, with entire cities being destroyed. But let us also not forget that the 9/11 attacks were a failed attempt to take out our government and top military leaders, and that we were very fortunate that it didn't succeed. Let us also not forget that the goal of terrorists has changed from terrorism via sensationally brutal killings of a relatively small number of people, to mass destruction of civilian populations.

Back to risk management. If you really want to decrease the death rate, forget about drunk drivers, gun control, and murderers. Empty out the prisons and fill them with doctors. Seriously. Look at how many people in the U.S. die from medical mistakes (which does include more than doctors, but is largely due to doctors) and from hospital infections, which are largely due to carelessness.

[icecow]

[QUOTE=Bigjohns]Hey Cow... the funny thing about the statistics you compare...

Nobody intentionally went out to KILL those "accident victims", or use their deaths to inflict terror on others.[/QUOTE]


In the above list ~4,000 people died of homocide (terrorism) in the last 13 years.
In the US 17,638 people die of homocide (non-terrorism, just murder) each year.

Why throw untold triple digit billions of dollars towards one set of ~4,000 murdered people and the rest to the other set of ~250,000 murdered people.


If you and a possie of 1,000 people could go stand over there in that field for most of your life to save one persons life awhile tax payers paid all your wages, would you think think that prudent? It doesn't make sense.

If someone was murdered down the street would ya think 100 sherriffs should guard the next door neighbors house for a year? We'll show them!


It doesn't make sense

[BaysideBas]

Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for Western civilization as it commits suicide.
Dr. Jerry Pournelle

[droht]

You sound balanced and well grounded my friend Ed, I'm not your friend, and you don't need to worry about my psychological well-being, but thanks anyway. Sorry I accused you of voting for W - that was apparently uncalled for.

Part of my issue with the airport screening thing is that it is a joke, but is somehow supposed to assuage our fears. What we have now is hardly better than the old "did you pack your own luggage?" questions. I have traveled internationally and know what some of you are talking about relative to security. My thought is that if security is going be a hassle at least make sure it is semi-effective.

No one of a right mind thinks Bush was somehow behind or aware of the 9/11 attacks, but anyone of a little mind can see how he's played those cards by fear-mongering and bullying his way around the political scene and through re-election.

[droht]

Let's get this straight: Every single one of them is evil. They intend to kill people. I don't care what their end goal is, or whether or not their mommy hugged them enough when they were kids.

What part of "evil" don't you understand?

Not even sure where to start on this antnjen, I'm sure you must have lots of qualfiers for when it is OK to kill someone without being considered "evil". Maybe you have an evil-meter or something?

Hitler is a good case study. Trying to exterminate the Jews, among others, was clearly evil. But was military aggression that caused millions of deaths, aimed at expanding the boundaries and power of Germany, evil as well? Easy to say it was because Hitler was a bad guy, but keep in mind that the geo-politcal face of the world we know today is based on war. If Hitler was evil just because he invaded other countries then I would say that we are all evil or at least the direct descendants of evil people.

[antnjen]

[QUOTE=droht]Not even sure where to start on this antnjen, I'm sure you must have lots of qualfiers for when it is OK to kill someone without being considered "evil". Maybe you have an evil-meter or something?[/QUOTE]

You are correct - there are qualifiers. But I won't bother to list them here since the terrorists you empathize with don't meet any of the criteria.

Here's an "evil-meter" for you: If you're a terrorist, you're evil. Is that simple enough for you? NOTE: There are other triggers (no pun intended) that will cause the "evil-meter" to red-line. I'm just keeping it germaine for terrorist-apologists like yourself.

[nded]

[QUOTE=droht].........then I would say that we are all evil or at least the direct descendants of evil people.[/QUOTE]

I think you're on to something there. I've read that in a book before - something about the inherent sinful nature of mankind and original sin..... arguably a reasonable assessment of our kind - left to our own devices we tend to end up doing something evil. Lately, it does seem like some of us humans are better at exhibiting these evil tendencies than others. I wish more of us would work on trying to do some good in this world to offset the evil. Who knows, something good might happen.

[droht]

I've read that in a book before Damn, I thought I was being original!

[icecow]

A true story about a suspeciously behaving man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3x_RRJdd4

[dhodory]

To those of you who are critical of the Bush administration's approach to terrorism (btw, I'm a "tweener", having voted for Kerry in 2004 and Bush in 2000 and Clinton in 1996) I will make one observation and leave with a question.

My observation is this: Bush administration bashers spend a lot of time pointing out mistakes or errors made. I see this behavior a lot in corporate America -- people finding fault with things like there's some kind of reward for so doing. It is also quite easy and doesn't require a lot of skill to point out mistakes after they've happened. It seems to be part of human nature that gets exaggerated when things are going poorly (when was the last time that you ranted and raved against your favorite sports team after a victory? did they play PERFECTLY in victory? probably not, but the outcome normally serves to distract from the errors made).

My question, and it is not one that is easily or succinctly answered (and even if you did spend a lot of time answering it -- it would be totally hypothetical): What's the better solution? I mean if Bush and the Rebulicans totally have their heads up their collective @$$es in every thing they do, then what is the approach that would / will succeed? My guess is that we'll get to see the Democrats take a whack at things in another year or so, and the results won't be much different (the process or approach they take might be less inflamatory or controversial though).

[adone36]

Ahhh, the Kerry "I was against the war after I was for it" process.

[Bigjohns]

The only reason "republicans" are seen as more inflamitory or controversial is because the media - 78% of whom are and have declared themselves as staunch liberals / democrats - make it so. Why is the media not talking about how good the economy has been the last 2 years? Because it won't hurt Bush or the republicans. Why is the media not comparing how the democrats acted with Jerry Studs (actually SCREWED a page) - applauding him and promoting him to a chairmanship - with Mark Foley (who as far as we know only solicited a person who is, after all, at the age of consent in both DC and his home state...>) who had the honor to resign? Because you don't smear democrats...

The democrats have yet to offer ANY plan for ANYTHING... except cut and run from Iraq, which will simply embolden our enemies and the islamofascist terrorists.

Another example - democrats slamming Bush for Abu Grabe, and Gitmo... but where is their similar outrage when the TERRORISTS blow up a bunch of Iraqi police recruits? Where is the similar outrage when the TERRORISTS treat prisoners by beheading them? The Geneva Conventions are a two way street. You don't get their protections if you're not following them yourself...

Ahh, the duplicity of the socialist left...

Or, as the media like to say "It ain't news if it don't bash bush!"

Sorry for the diatribe.

[Paul Bruneau]

[QUOTE=jelliott25]Yeah, there's clearly nothing to worry about. Certainly no reason to be rude.

* 1993 (Feb.): Bombing of World Trade Center (WTC); 6 killed.[/QUOTE]
If only they had started arresting foreigners with iPods back then, we wouldn't have all of today's problems...wait, the iPod wasn't invented yet...DAMN YOU APPLE!!!
* 1993 (Oct.): Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.
Thank goodness that US soldiers are no longer dying!!
* 1996 (June): Truck bombing at Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killed 19 Americans.
Thank goodness that due to all this $$$ and hassle, there are no more truck bombs!
* 1998 (Aug.): Bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; 224 killed, including 12 Americans.
No one could bomb a building now!
* 1999 (Dec.): Plot to bomb millennium celebrations in Seattle foiled when customs agents arrest an Algerian smuggling explosives into the U.S.
I am very happy that massive public gatherings are no longer dangerous! Loss of civil rights was a small price to pay!
* 2000 (Oct.): Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S. sailors killed.
I must admit that I heard that our warships no longer allow vessels to approach them without challenge, that's one for the good guys I guess.
* 2001 (Sept.): Destruction of WTC; attack on Pentagon. Total dead 2,992.
Did those guys have iPods?
* 2001 (Dec.): Man tried to denote shoe bomb on flight from Paris to Miami.
2001 (Dec.): Idiot tried to light shoe...failed, the world is safe from burning shoes
* 2002 (April): Explosion at historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, including 11 German tourists.
Thankfully, attacks on jewish targets are way down since the "war on terror" began!
* 2002 (May): Car exploded outside hotel in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 14, including 11 French citizens.
I continue to be very confident that no car could possibly explode in a public place today--thank you war on terror!
* 2002 (June): Bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.
I feel warm and fuzzy that suicide bombings can no longer occur because I can't take a nail file into a courthouse anymore.
* 2002 (Oct.): Boat crashed into oil tanker off Yemen coast, killing 1.
2002 (Oct.): Drunk sailor fell off boat somewhere, killing 1, I'm pretty sure.
* 2002 (Oct.): Nightclub bombings in Bali, Indonesia, killed 202, mostly Australian citizens.
200?: Idiot lights fireworks in Rhode Island nightclub, kills many stoned concert goers
* 2002 (Nov.): Suicide attack on a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killed 16.
I'm sure there is an anti-terror law out there that will prevent this from recurring, thank you Mr. Bush
* 2003 (May): Suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
Dang, I guess if it didn't include those 8 Americans, it wouldn't have been mentionable.
* 2003 (May): 4 bombs killed 33 people targeting Jewish, Spanish, and Belgian sites in Casablanca, Morocco.
Hey, I can't be responsible for those Belgians, there is nothing more dangerous than being Belgian.
* 2003 (Aug.): Suicide car-bomb killed 12, injured 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.
I think I already mentioned that we don't have to worry about car bombs any more, right?
* 2003 (Nov.): Explosions rocked a Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, housing compound, killing 17.
It's a shame that there weren't 8 foreign looking guys with ipods around that they could have prevented this tradegy.
* 2003 (Nov.): Suicide car-bombers simultaneously attacked 2 synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 25 and injuring hundreds.
see above
* 2003 (Nov.): Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 26.
see above
* 2004 (March): 10 bombs on 4 trains exploded almost simultaneously during the morning rush hour in Madrid, Spain, killing 191 and injuring more than 1,500.
At least all trains are safe now. You can thank the administration's eavesdropping of international calls for that one.
* 2004 (May): Terrorists attacked Saudi oil company offices in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, killing 22.
Gas prices are lower now, no doubt due to increased security brought about by us "taking the fight to them" in iraq, so this is unlikely to recur.
* 2004 (June): Terrorists kidnapped and executed American Paul Johnson, Jr., in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
(every year): Saudi Arabia puts to death countless petty criminals who aren't americans, but let's not worry about what our allies do in their own "homeland"
* 2004 (Sept.): Car bomb outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia, killed 9.
see above
* 2004 (Dec.): Terrorists entered the U.S. Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 9 (including 4 attackers).
I presume they already had decent security there...
* 2005 (July): Bombs exploded on 3 trains and a bus in London, England, killing 52.
see above
* 2005 (Oct.): 22 killed by 3 suicide bombs in Bali, Indonesia.
see above
* 2005 (Nov.): 57 killed at 3 American hotels in Amman, Jordan.
And thanks to the lesson learned there, all hotels are now completely safe and inpenetrable.
* 2006 (Aug.): More than 25 arrested in plot to blow up jetliners between London and U.S.
I don't know how to respond here, you listed tons of successful terrorist attacks, and one failure...

Now some of my favorites:

2006: Mentally ill man shot dead running away from a plane on the tarmack, although details are sketchy for some reason.

2006: Foreign looking man gunned down in British subway apparently because of his choice of coat and because he started to run when several men started yelling at him, or something. Details very sketchy for some reason, but sums of money were paid, so I'm sure it's all OK.

2006: 3 or so young arab looking men arrested in eastern Michigan for having....more cell phones than Wal-Mart wanted them to have!! And you know what else??? They had actual...pictures...of the mackinac bridge and other tourist destinations!!! At least no one died on that one.

2001-200?: Unknown numbers of totally innocent people rounded up and taken to secret prisons for torture, then possibly released, or possibly not, or possibly dead. Hey, it's the price we pay for today's amazing security!

The day after 9/11 at my local airport they sealed off short term parking for "security". This is in a small Michigan town. It remained closed for years. The road where people drop commuters off right in front of the airport remained open. The taxi idling spots 20' from the entrance remained open. What was the point? Multiply this stupidity times thousands of towns and affecting millions of people.

Some idiot tries to light his shoe on a plane and fails, and then for years, they "suggest" to me when checking in that I remove my shoes. "what if I don't" I always ask. "then you'll be pulled off the line and checked" they say. So I always refused and let them sit me down and check me. Why don't they just mandate the removal of shoes???

I don't mind security, but I hate stupidity, and all I'm seeing is stupidity. Despite billions of dollars and millions of hours wasted, anyone can blow up a plane any time they want to. And it won't be via a baby's bottle or with hair gel. Notice how quick they allowed items purchased in the "safe zone" or whatever they call it back on planes? Wonder why? $$$ that's why, not security.

[adone36]

2001-200?: Unknown numbers of totally innocent people rounded up and taken to secret prisons for torture, then possibly released, or possibly not, or possibly dead. Hey, it's the price we pay for today's amazing security!

Let me guess, you read this on the internet.

[Clay Schneider]

[QUOTE=adone36]Let me guess, you read this on the internet.[/QUOTE]

actually, I think it was on Fox "news".

[Ed Rempalski]

I keep my shoes on as well, and get the double check, and I agree there's millions of wasted hours in our lives now.

I also believe that if "they" could bring a plane down they'd do it, I think it's harder now than ever to pull it off. If you start burning your shoe next to me, I'll kick your A** and if I don't, probably 20 others would step forward, in a heart beat. That's what changed after 911.

It's a simple truth that profiling would stop 99% of what is happening today in regards to "terrorist" activity. Oh I'm sure someone will turn Henrietta and get her to wear the suicide belt for the gipper, but my money is on that being a rare occurance and I don't gamble.

The US is the most open country that I've been to, the odds of being swept away and killed or interrogated are far greater outside the US.

On Bush, heck it won't make any difference which party is in power, it's money and buisness that runs the show, jacks us for energy, keeps our borders open, kills CA, locks down DRM, etc.

Oh I wish the people really would step up and do the right things, but they don't, they don't vote, they don't participate, and it's plain sad.

[Bigjohns]

Hey, that's true... but I gotta say - you can blame the democrats and their enviro-nazi friends for our current high gas prices... the Eco-nazi lobby has eliminated all domestic oil drilling, and restricted refineries so much that it's cheaper for a company to build a refinery in Aruba and ship the oil in... And let's not talk Nuclear power. Hell, Socialist France gets a higher % of their power from nuke energy than we do. Want to solve the power problem in the us? Build 40 big, safe, new reactors in New Mexico, and drill off the coast of Florida before Fidel and China do.

[Bigjohns]

Oooh.. This is a MUST SEE! (http://www.stegenga.net/random-musings/political-musings/hit-back-at-the-dems....html) .. Hilariously true...

[Ed Rempalski]

Far Right + Far Left = 2 nuts

[Creech]

Wow. Well thanks for the lively conversation.

All I was trying to do was bring light to something that happened that I witnessed. I didn't mean it to become political partisan debate.

Given the fact that I can't find ANYTHING in the main stream media as to what happened, who they were, etc I am very glad that I made the post on my blog and encouraged folks to visit with the video.

[Ed Rempalski]

Yah, it was a hoot.

Depending on who you want to believe, they were either re-screened and sent on their way, or were sequestered, tortured, and then had their remains nuked.

[JET99]

Fear-mongering about what now? An enemy that has vowed to kill every last one of us, and is seeking atomic weapons

Nice to still live in a Sept 10th world, its so serene

[icecow]

Don't assume others have given up on security because they(I) think [color=red][size=+2]Security Theator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater)[/size][/color] is bizarre, over-the-top-expensive and wothless.

funny. at this point we're all having our own conversations.

[chain777]

[QUOTE=icecow]Don't assume others have given up on security because they(I) think [color=red][size=+2]Security Theator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater)[/size][/color] is bizarre, over-the-top-expensive and wothless.

funny. at this point we're all having our own conversations.[/QUOTE]

People react to fear in many ways, some more bizarre than others. The anger is a reaction to the fear, which gives way to humor, a realization of that fear.

(could be the most pretentious post ever)



*Creech, I'm surprised you didn't expect this kind of reaction...or did you?

[Creech]

[QUOTE=chain777]*Creech, I'm surprised you didn't expect this kind of reaction...or did you?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what I expected. I'm not one to stir the pot in general. Personally, I am still having strong reactions to what happened, but they aren't political. As I mentioned, the experience was odd in the extreme.

At one point the flight attendant who brought the strange behaviour to the attention of the captain said she felt victimized by those on the airplane.

So Chain, I expected a reaction of some kind (perhaps even a strong reaction)--but within this particular context not, for example, Bush and Kerry bashing.

[JET99]

The CNN core belief reflected in every story they run: Don't you know, America led by the evil George Bush, and Israel are the source of nearly every problem in the world

[Clay Schneider]

[QUOTE=JET99]The CNN core belief reflected in every story they run: Don't you know, America led by the evil George Bush, and Israel are the source of nearly every problem in the world[/QUOTE]

nowhere near as fair and balanced as Fox "news" ...

[Ed Rempalski]

What's really funny is the fact that some guy just pulled a little stunt down south, he marched an elephant and a mariachi band right across the border without incident.

Creech, the attendant felt victimized by which party on the aircraft, the 8 or the rest??

[Paul Bruneau]

[QUOTE=Creech]Given the fact that I can't find ANYTHING in the main stream media as to what happened, who they were, etc I am very glad that I made the post on my blog and encouraged folks to visit with the video.[/QUOTE]

I allege that if the media reported each case of worthless searches and seizures, there would be no time left for the important stuff like who Madonna is adopting, and who Anna Nicole is exchanging vows with.

[Creech]

[QUOTE=Ed Rempalski]
Creech, the attendant felt victimized by which party on the aircraft, the 8 or the rest??[/QUOTE]

She indicated that it was the general population of the aircraft.

[Creech]

[QUOTE=Ed Rempalski]What's really funny is the fact that some guy just pulled a little stunt down south, he marched an elephant and a mariachi band right across the border without incident.
[/QUOTE]

Hmmmm...I wonder if the guys on my plane could have pulled that one off... The band could have kept the passengers entertained!

[jelliott25]

[QUOTE=icecow]In the above list ~4,000 people died of homocide (terrorism) in the last 13 years.
In the US 17,638 people die of homocide (non-terrorism, just murder) each year.

Why throw untold triple digit billions of dollars towards one set of ~4,000 murdered people and the rest to the other set of ~250,000 murdered people.


If you and a possie of 1,000 people could go stand over there in that field for most of your life to save one persons life awhile tax payers paid all your wages, would you think think that prudent? It doesn't make sense.

If someone was murdered down the street would ya think 100 sherriffs should guard the next door neighbors house for a year? We'll show them!


It doesn't make sense[/QUOTE]

Would you then not differentiate between a thousand people murdering their wives and one guy murdering a thousand people's wives?

[icecow]

[QUOTE=chain777]People react to fear in many ways, some more bizarre than others. The anger is a reaction to the fear, which gives way to humor, a realization of that fear.

(could be the most pretentious post ever)
[/QUOTE]



'Security Theator' is a term that has nothing to do with people reacting theatrically.

My 'guess' is you didn't read the wiki link because you are used to me leaving bare links.
here it is again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_theater

it starts off..
"Security theater are security countermeasures that provide the feeling of security while doing little or nothing to actually improve security.[1] The term was coined by Bruce Schneier for his book Beyond Fear but has gained currency in security circles, particularly for describing airport security measures. It is also used by some experts such as Edward Felten to describe the security measures imposed after the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center. Security theater gains importance both by satisfying and exploiting the gap between perceived risk and actual risk."


and, no, I didn't learn about security theator through wiki, so noone give me the wiki-is-garbage arguement. Though I encourage people to read the whole [short] wiki entry. It's a fair entry and exhibits a few other points that are good to think about.


As far as the stewartess.. I didn't mean it as a personal attack on her. Maybe a little. The way I see it she was sort of set up, like paying Dave to stand in front of a drug store and watch for suspious people. I could be sympathetic for Dave when he trys to fullfill his job by tackling somebody. Fine, but someone was tackled. In a lighter sense, this new breed of jobs could be seen as humourous if fear wasn't always at the core. The show Reno911 could be set to a 'homeland security' theme. I'd watch! Speaking of which, I vaguely remember a story about some ligit homeland security people entering a library and asking the patrons at library computers to stand up and back away from them. The librarian kicked them out, and complained and that was the end of that.

but hey, if you think I'm some kind of pretentious panty-waste let me know. I'm kinda dense.

[jelliott25]

[QUOTE=Paul Bruneau]
I don't mind security, but I hate stupidity, and all I'm seeing is stupidity. Despite billions of dollars and millions of hours wasted, anyone can blow up a plane any time they want to. And it won't be via a baby's bottle or with hair gel. Notice how quick they allowed items purchased in the "safe zone" or whatever they call it back on planes? Wonder why? $$$ that's why, not security.[/QUOTE]


I agree with this 100%. Let's stop tip toeing around and give the ACLU something to complain about.

[scottie137]

To all those posting about the worthless security measures in place and Security Theatre, what are your proposed solutions. You all seem to be very astute at ripping on the current measures, but I don't see any suggestions here as to how to remedy the situation. As for the cost-benefit of said security measures, I, for one, would rather we spend money to keep my loved ones safe rather than to do nothing and put them at risk...

[Bigjohns]

[QUOTE=scottie137]To all those posting about the worthless security measures in place and Security Theatre, what are your proposed solutions. You all seem to be very astute at ripping on the current measures, but I don't see any suggestions here as to how to remedy the situation. As for the cost-benefit of said security measures, I, for one, would rather we spend money to keep my loved ones safe rather than to do nothing and put them at risk...[/QUOTE]

Worthless security = random screenings. What worth is it to search an 80 yr old grandmother and her granddaughter? And then let the two angry looking muslim men behind her on the plane without a word?

Worthless security = taking my cigar cutter and nail clippers. If I wanted to cut your throat, I could do so with many non-metalic items in my wallet - IE the edge of a credit card sharpened to an edge... or a ball point pen. Hasn't anyone ever seen the "doctor shows" where they trache (sp?) someone with a pen?

Valid Security = xray my baggage and my carry-on.

Valid Security = Secured pilot cabin doors

Valid Security = PROFILING. It's not politically correct, but perhaps PROFILING muslims will create enough outrage wiwithin their own communites that THEY (who profess to be peacefull lovers of freedom) will do something about those evil bas*ards who are co-opting their religeon....

John

[Ed Rempalski]

There ya go!

[Creech]

I agree with BigJohns on his last post. Profiling, as long as it is not used as an excuse to harass folks with a different coloured skin, should be part of the security mix. Random checks are pretty much useless.

[scottie137]

[QUOTE=Bigjohns]

Valid Security = PROFILING. It's not politically correct, but perhaps PROFILING muslims will create enough outrage wiwithin their own communites that THEY (who profess to be peacefull lovers of freedom) will do something about those evil bas*ards who are co-opting their religeon....

John[/QUOTE]

So any NEW ideas? As for profiling, all I can say is that its a slippery slope...not necessarily against it, but once you start, where do you stop.

Random checks do have a place also. Since they are random, the bad guys never know if they might be checked. This does act as a deterent. Maybe not much of one, but I would argue that it is far from "totally worthless."

[Creech]

[QUOTE=scottie137]So any NEW ideas?[/QUOTE]

My wife thinks everyone should be issued a unitard before getting on a plane.

[Ace987]

[QUOTE=scottie137]So any NEW ideas?[/QUOTE] Replace the oxygen in the cabin with sleeping gas.

[icecow]

[QUOTE=Creech]My wife thinks everyone should be issued a unitard before getting on a plane.[/QUOTE]


google pictures of unitards:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=unitard&sa=N&tab=wi

HAHAHAHAHA





The Swedish Bikini Team frisking wouldn't stop but it would become a lot more conspicuous. Security? What were we talking about?

[QUOTE=adone36]While your political beliefs may be salved and comforted by watching the airport people frisking the Swedish Bikini Team while members of some radical US Imam's congregation are allowed to board freely, I'll take another flight.[/QUOTE]

[icecow]

[QUOTE=Ace987]Replace the oxygen in the cabin with sleeping gas.[/QUOTE]

And employ chemical weapons?? Oh, wait. That's much milder than anything we've been doing; that might work.

[Creech]

[QUOTE=icecow]google pictures of unitards:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=unitard&sa=N&tab=wi

HAHAHAHAHA

[/QUOTE]

Mooooonitard. ;)

[Paul Bruneau]

[QUOTE=scottie137]To all those posting about the worthless security measures in place and Security Theatre, what are your proposed solutions. You all seem to be very astute at ripping on the current measures, but I don't see any suggestions here as to how to remedy the situation. As for the cost-benefit of said security measures, I, for one, would rather we spend money to keep my loved ones safe rather than to do nothing and put them at risk...[/QUOTE]

ideas? You want ideas from me? I'm not a security professional, I'm just a random dork. I don't have any ideas.

But when a random dork like me with no ideas can plainly see that the existing "security" measures are worthless crap, then that is a real problem, and that's why a random dork like me doesn't like it and will occasionally rant about it.

I too would rather spend money to keep loves ones safe. But that doesn't mean I want to spend money to just have pretend safe.

[scottie137]

[QUOTE=Paul Bruneau]ideas? You want ideas from me? I'm not a security professional, I'm just a random dork. I don't have any ideas.

But when a random dork like me with no ideas can plainly see that the existing "security" measures are worthless crap, then that is a real problem, and that's why a random dork like me doesn't like it and will occasionally rant about it.

I too would rather spend money to keep loves ones safe. But that doesn't mean I want to spend money to just have pretend safe.[/QUOTE]

Yep, its easy to sit on the sidelines and take pot shots. How can you tell if something isn't meaningful, yet have no ability to make any suggestions. That doesn't hold up to logic. If you can decide something is not reasonable than you should also be able to decide how to make improvements, no?

[SpaceCadet]

If you wanted total security, no one would be allowed to carry any baggage onto a plane. Everyone would be strip searched, hair and body-cavity searched, and x-rayed for swallowed or surgically implanted bombs.

Random searches are better than no searches. Deterrence depends upon the percentage of people screened.

The 9/11 hijackers never used box cutters. That sort of "weapon" would be useless to a terrorist (or anyone else). They used ceramic knives. The checking for small sharp objects did make sense, as it only takes two inches of penetration to kill a human (anything with less penetration would be relatively safe, no matter how sharp). You can die from less penetration, such as cutting your wrists, but it takes a long time to bleed out that way (and the bleeding is relatively easy to control), so no terrorist is going to slash your wrists. There are other shallow arm blood vessels that can kill relatively quickly when cut with a very sharp knife, but terrorists aren't going to kill you that way.

The biggest dangers to planes are bombs and missiles. Most people probably don't grasp just how small a high explosive that's capable of bringing down a plane can be. Explosives can be placed in any small electronic device, drinks (this has actually been done, in 1992), and the soles of shoes (done, but failed to detonate). Passing something small to an unsuspecting passenger is a possibility, such as giving a child a stuffed animal containing a bomb.

The technology to build bomb-proof airline cargo containers has been available for many years, but the airlines don't want to spend the money.

Shoulder-fired missiles are a very serious threat. These would be unlikely to result in many thousands of deaths, but would be very effective as terror weapons, virtually shutting down the airlines and inflicting substantial economic damage. The technology to defend against them has also been available for years, but again, the airlines don't want to spend the money.

One of the more interesting technologies comes from a small company that bought a standard airline x-ray baggage scanner, and is adapting it to detect every known explosive via software. I knew that x-rays could be used to determine the composition of materials, but I had no idea that a baggage scanner had the ability to do that. Of course, the US will probably be the last country to purchase them; the company will probably have to start by selling them to foreign countries.

Security at air cargo carriers remains weak, as does general aviation security (small planes aren't very useful as bombs, but could be used for chemical, biological, or radiological attacks).

I still think that many people underestimate the change in terrorism. Al Qaida declared war on the US, came closer to taking out key government and military leaders than any nation or group has since the US was founded (as far as I know), killed more people in a single coordinated group of attacks on US soil than any nation or group since Pearl Harbor, and did it with nineteen men with knives. Loosely-coupled global terrorism is a new phenomenon, as is the shift to mass casualties. I think that most people also fail to understand that this movement involves open warfare where that option is available, killing probably hundreds of thousands over the last decade or so (Afghanistan, the Philippines, Africa, etc.).

[Paul Bruneau]

[QUOTE=scottie137]Yep, its easy to sit on the sidelines and take pot shots. How can you tell if something isn't meaningful, yet have no ability to make any suggestions. That doesn't hold up to logic. If you can decide something is not reasonable than you should also be able to decide how to make improvements, no?[/QUOTE]

No. If you invent a flying car that costs $10,000 per mile to operate, I can decide that is not a reasonable product. I also have no idea how to improve it, but I sure know that it won't sell.

And Spacecadet, a box cutter can kill so easily. You mentioned shallow blood vessels in the wrist, but didn't mention the ones in the neck that will kill you within minutes at a depth of what? 1/2 inch or less? Where do you get that they didn't use box cutters?

[SpaceCadet]

[QUOTE=Paul Bruneau]...a box cutter can kill so easily. You mentioned shallow blood vessels in the wrist, but didn't mention the ones in the neck that will kill you within minutes at a depth of what? 1/2 inch or less? Where do you get that they didn't use box cutters?[/QUOTE]The critical blood vessels in the neck aren't that close to the surface. Typically, it takes two inches of penetration to puncture the heart or sever the carotid arteries. Blood vessels contain nerves that detect the vibration of cutting, which triggers muscles in the blood vessel walls to constrict the vessels. An extremely sharp instrument can reduce the chance of triggering the nerves. You'll eventually die from any bleeding that can't be controlled, but a terrorist doesn't want to wait an hour for you to bleed out. It was stated early on by government officials who have the information that box cutters were never used. The 9/11 Commission Report should confirm that (I haven't read it; doesn't really interest me).

[Paul Bruneau]

[QUOTE=SpaceCadet]The critical blood vessels in the neck aren't that close to the surface. Typically, it takes two inches of penetration to puncture the heart or sever the carotid arteries. Blood vessels contain nerves that detect the vibration of cutting, which triggers muscles in the blood vessel walls to constrict the vessels. An extremely sharp instrument can reduce the chance of triggering the nerves. You'll eventually die from any bleeding that can't be controlled, but a terrorist doesn't want to wait an hour for you to bleed out. It was stated early on by government officials who have the information that box cutters were never used. The 9/11 Commission Report should confirm that (I haven't read it; doesn't really interest me).[/QUOTE]

Blood vessels detect the vibration of cutting and constrict appropriately??? I'm not sure how that action (which sounds like complete hogwash) is going to keep blood flowing to the brain.

2 inches of penetration to reach the carotid arteries? My whole neck is only 4" wide. WebMD says: "Blood flowing through the carotid arteries (carotid pulses) can be felt on each side of the neck next to the windpipe (trachea)."

You are clearly incorrect.

Everyone please enjoy this timely cartoon:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/uclickcomics/20061017/cx_db_uc/db20061017

[scottie137]

[QUOTE=Paul Bruneau]No. If you invent a flying car that costs $10,000 per mile to operate, I can decide that is not a reasonable product. I also have no idea how to improve it, but I sure know that it won't sell.

And Spacecadet, a box cutter can kill so easily. You mentioned shallow blood vessels in the wrist, but didn't mention the ones in the neck that will kill you within minutes at a depth of what? 1/2 inch or less? Where do you get that they didn't use box cutters?[/QUOTE]

Really? Not reasonable to operate for whom? You? What if this product were used as an ambulance and allowed for ultra rapid transport to the hospital for critically injured victims? And you do know how to improve it, its stated right in your argument, reduce the costs of operation. So, saying something like "I think that they should increase the number of reasonable searches, while limiting the number of unreasonable ones." You wouldn't need to tell me how to accomplish this, just that you think its would make more sense in your eyes. I think thats my biggest complaint with this thread and the critics of the security efforts. They are so quick to call out things that they feel are unreasonable or inane. Yet, they offer no rationale arguments or opinions on what they would see change.

[icecow]

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=arteries+neck

[SpaceCadet]

[QUOTE=Paul Bruneau]Blood vessels detect the vibration of cutting and constrict appropriately??? I'm not sure how that action (which sounds like complete hogwash) is going to keep blood flowing to the brain.

2 inches of penetration to reach the carotid arteries? My whole neck is only 4" wide.[/QUOTE]The information I gave is correct. You misinterpreted my statement. Evolution has equipped blood vessels with nerves and muscles to try to keep animals from bleeding out when they are injured or attacked. Extremely sharp knives can defeat this mechanism by preventing the blood vessels from detecting the cut (note that this does not occur in nature--no teeth, claws, or typical objects in the environment are that sharp--I'm talking extremely sharp and smooth razor-edge). You can simply Google "carotid artery depth". Most of the references that I saw were related to ultrasound measurements, and most started at a depth of 50mm (2") and went deeper from there. I find it hard to believe that your neck is only 4" wide. The neck is not a big hollow space. The esophagus and windpipe are small in relation to the rest of the neck tissue.

[Paul Bruneau]

[QUOTE=scottie137]Really? Not reasonable to operate for whom? You? What if this product were used as an ambulance and allowed for ultra rapid transport to the hospital for critically injured victims? And you do know how to improve it, its stated right in your argument, reduce the costs of operation. So, saying something like "I think that they should increase the number of reasonable searches, while limiting the number of unreasonable ones." You wouldn't need to tell me how to accomplish this, just that you think its would make more sense in your eyes. I think thats my biggest complaint with this thread and the critics of the security efforts. They are so quick to call out things that they feel are unreasonable or inane. Yet, they offer no rationale arguments or opinions on what they would see change.[/QUOTE]

You have completely missed my point. I think you are doing it on purpose. Goodbye.

[Paul Bruneau]

[QUOTE=SpaceCadet]The information I gave is correct. You misinterpreted my statement. Evolution has equipped blood vessels with nerves and muscles to try to keep animals from bleeding out when they are injured or attacked. Extremely sharp knives can defeat this mechanism by preventing the blood vessels from detecting the cut (note that this does not occur in nature--no teeth, claws, or typical objects in the environment are that sharp--I'm talking extremely sharp and smooth razor-edge). You can simply Google "carotid artery depth". Most of the references that I saw were related to ultrasound measurements, and most started at a depth of 50mm (2") and went deeper from there. I find it hard to believe that your neck is only 4" wide. The neck is not a big hollow space. The esophagus and windpipe are small in relation to the rest of the neck tissue.[/QUOTE]

I can't believe I'm wasting my time like this. You are a real space cadet, no doubt.

Your neck arteries can constrict all they want to, that is fine. But blood still won't get to your BRAIN, which will incapacitate you very quickly. You should check the blood supply to your brain in fact.

Did you just ignore the link offered by icecow showing the important brain-supplying arteries at the surface of the neck? Did you ignore that you can feel your pulse in those arteries just under the neck skin as I said before? Or are you incapable of understanding?

Finally, I don't care how large the esophagus and windpipe are--my whole neck is about 4" just like I said, here's the photo. I assume your neck must be a lot thicker, to go with the rest of you.

http://ethicalpaul.com/share/neck.jpg

[scottie137]

[QUOTE=Paul Bruneau]You have completely missed my point. I think you are doing it on purpose. Goodbye.[/QUOTE]

Goodbye, and thank you for MAKING my point. I think Spacecadet was refering to the circumference of your neck, not the width. What would width have to do with depth?

[Ace987]

[QUOTE=scottie137]Goodbye, and thank you for MAKING my point. I think Spacecadet was refering to the circumference of your neck, not the width. What would width have to do with depth?[/QUOTE] Ooooo, ooooo, ooooo, I know the answer.... pick me.... pick me.

Seriously though, if his neck is only 4" wide, that would mean the deepest point from any outside area is only 2". If the blood vessel in question is 0" thick (which it isn't), then it's got to be closer than 2" from the outside.

Now that I got that out of the way, wasn't the whole point of this supposed scenerio to say whether or not a box-cutter blade could cut a major artery? Well, to me, even if the atery was 2" deep, that wouldn't matter. The blade doesn't need to be that deep, you just need to be able to penetrate down that far. With a blade (to do the actual cutting) and enough force, you could make a very small blade go down much deeper than it's actual length. It's not quite as easy as having an object that was long enough to begin with, but it's possible.

[Creech]

I just recently made a connection. Brad Templeton was the first commentor on this post on my blog. I just responded like I normally would. Yesterday I decided to click on the link he embedded. He is the Chairman of the EFF! Cool Beans!

[icecow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Templeton

[icecow]

Here's Brad Templetons article, "10 Big Myths about copyright explained"

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

[GeekGirlCutie]

[QUOTE=Creech]Eight Men (http://imagespace.blogspot.com/2006/10/men-escorted-off-my-flight.html) were taken off my plane last night. I posted two videos last last--one from Baltimore to Chicago (uneventful) and one from Chicago to Denver (quite eventful).

Our flight left about two hours late. It was a pretty odd experience.

Anyway, its way off topic (except that I managed to capture some video with my cell phone) but I thought of interest.[/QUOTE]


That's really alarming...I wonder what would have happened had these eight men not been escorted off your flight? Hopefully nothing but it does make you think.

[Creech]

[QUOTE=GeekGirlCutie]That's really alarming...I wonder what would have happened had these eight men not been escorted off your flight? Hopefully nothing but it does make you think.[/QUOTE]

Well it does. I have no idea what happened. It hasn't been reported on in the Chicago or Denver news. I'd like to think these fellows were escorted off and there was nothing amiss and then ended up getting where they needed to get on the next flight.

[icecow]

Boingboing still cuts it in my book.

Here BoingBoing reports food for thought, a good article.

BoingBoing Abstract of article:
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/10/19/why_architecture_and.html

Direct link to Article:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/10/architecture_an.html